An Equal Opportunity Destroyer

Roger L. Simon reviews Borat Am I the only one not suing Sacha Cohen? Okay, I'll sue. But I will have to stand in line behind the racist/sexist/fraternity clods in the RV and, now, the citizens of the Romanian village of Glod who claim to have been "tricked" by the filmmaker. (They and a lot of people.) Of course, none of the folks - or should I say volk - would be paying the slightest attention if the flick hadn't earned just shy of 50 million in eight days. It's clearly headed for being one of the top grossing comedies of all time. And everybody in the movie business knows - where there is success, there are lawsuits.

November 12, 2006

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It’s not for nothing you have to sign a drawer full of legal protection agreements before you ever get to pitch a story to the likes of Steven Spielberg or that all Lord Steven’s scripts are numbered and that you have to sign for them individually, if he deigns to let you read a copy.

But enough about that. What about Borat? For those few of you haven’t seen it, is the mockumentary about a Kazakh newscaster who comes to America to tell like it is about about the “US and A” to the Slavic rednecks at home as good as they say? Yes. In fact, better. This Sacha Baron Cohen guy is the real deal - the best comic to appear on screen since Richard Pryor. And he shares with Pryor that key ingredient that makes the most memorable comedy work - the courage to go all the way. Or most of the way anyway, because you know there are things on the Borat cutting room floor that couldn’t have made it through any censors. Nevertheless, Cohen is in that direct line of comedy that runs from Aristophanes to Rabelais through Groucho and Harpo and on to Pryor. These men were all ruthless and transgressive. If they had something on their minds, they just said it; some vile, hostile comic act to perform, they just did it. (Harpo gives everyone his leg to hold just as Borat innocently kisses every male he sees in America.) Of course in our modern era of political correctness this is a rare phenomenon, which makes Cohen all the more funny and startling. Compare him to the so much blander Comedy Central duo Stewart and Colbert. It’s hard to imagine either of them with anything close to enough guts to do something as outrageous as the now famous nude wrestling scene in Borat. I also couldn’t imagine them making a group of real life New York feminists seem like complete idiots. Cohen does the same thing later in the film with a right-wing rodeo rider as well. He is an equal opportunity destroyer. And we know they all deserve it.

But Cohen does more than that. He makes you believe in movies again and what they can do - that they can move and amaze you. And let’s face it, film art is a pretty pathetic enterprise these days, decades past its glory years when movies really had something to say about our culture. Don’t believe me? Mosey on over to the Janus Films site and take a look at the package of 50 classic films they are putting out in a giant DVD collection for Christmas - The Seven Samurai, Umberto D., The 39 Steps, The 400 Blows, Grand Illusion, Wild Strawberries, La Strada, etc., etc. Masterpiece after masterpiece - and not one of them made after 1973, the vast majority considerably earlier. Personally, I haven’t seen a movie I really liked on that level in ten years. Except Borat.

Roger L. Simon wrote the movie Bustin’ Loose for Richard Pryor.

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42 Comments

Patrick Armstrong:

Dear Mr Simon

I don’t want to be too pedantic here, but I’ve actually BEEN to Kazakhstan which is a real place full of real people. And I found them to be as people elsewhere — OK in general.

My complaint about the movie/character is that it’s not about “Krapistan”, or “Lower Slobbovia” but refers to an actual country in such a way as to insult its inhabitants and irritate all those who know something about the place. They really aren’t the ignorant slobs presented (I’ve seen enough selections on You Tube to get the idea). They aren’t Slavic, BTW, they’re a Turkic people. Who have their own language, not Russian. And so on.

I’m not making some dumb PC point here but I don’t see the point of insulting the Kazakhs. Especially when the point of the joke is to insult other people (which is OK by me - it’s that the Kazakhs are the innocent victims here). It’s perfectly obvious that Cohen knows next to nothing about the actual country. So again I ask: why insult the Kazakhs?

Nov 12, 2006 - 3:35 pm drtaxsacto:

I am not sure you saw the same movie I did. I found the movie entirely predictable. I got the joke after about 10 minutes but it continued for another 80. In two days I saw Borat and the Queen. While the Queen is not a comedy, it is a superb movie. Unlike Borat, the producers and writers spent some time thinking about what the movie might actually look like throughout the story. It is odd to compare Borat to either the best of the classic comedians or to Colbert and Stewart. In the one instance people like Pryor had a good understanding of comedic devices. They did stretch the bounds but they also had a good idea about how to keep their audience. Colbert and Stewart a poor reflections of comedic genius.

Nov 12, 2006 - 4:05 pm Brian G:

Hey, Patrick Armstrong, what’s the point of insulting anyone? How dare Chris Rock, for example, make a distinction between blacks and, well, you know? And how dare Jeff Foxworthy make fun of rednecks? And, how dare Dice Clay insult women?

Seriously, the beauty of comedy comes when no one is spared. I am sure Kazak people are fine people. But so are others who provide punch lines. If you think that making distinctions on who it is OK to make fun of, and who is not, then perhaps America and the First Amendment aren’t for you.

Nov 12, 2006 - 4:57 pm Dean Esmay:

I’m with Patrick.

Jeff Foxworthy makes fun of rednecks but he actually is one and there’s also an element of love and humor to what he does. Chris Rock? Well he IS black, duh, and he has a perspective drawn from that.

Cohen? Has he ever been to Kazakhstan? Does he know anyone there? Does he have relatives from there?

What part of reality is he satirizing when he just makes stuff up? What little language he speaks my (Polish) wife tells me isn’t even Russian but is in fact Polish.

He’d have been funnier if he’d at least had the taste, like Andy Kaufman, to make up a fake country and not pick on a really quite poor and remote nation still struggling with the legacy of Stalinism.

I suppose some will call that objection just “political correctness” but to me political correctness involves refusing to acknowledge some deep underlying reality for purely political reasons. What deep underlying reality about Kazakhstan does this guy reveal? What deep truth based on his personal experience is he unveiling?

Well these objections are obviously peeing into the wind because most people just don’t care. Most probably think there isn’t any Kazakhstan anyway….

Nov 12, 2006 - 5:09 pm Carson Bennett:

I have to agree with Dr. Taxsacto — the movie would be funny as a “short,” but an hour and a half of Borat doing the same thing is numbing: meet people with a point of view, say rude things to them, get them to say rude things back, mention your crum or ask to touch them … This was funny in junior high — for a while. By second semester, we were asking people to please stop — we get it. “Courage?” “Startling?” “Amaze?” To me, it was junior high with a big budget — once you get the drift, it is the same gag played in different costumes. I just don’t see this as anything beyond a person with comedic timing, the will to say rude things, and a budget that lets him try it 1000 times so he can cull 20 of them for publication.

A big portion of the audience that loves this film is made up of from the same people who watch a friend fart in public or ask a stranger at a bar if he can touch her breasts — it gets even funnier if you’re drunk, and that is not “classic,” that’s juvenile with a credit card and a driver’s license (and a lawyer).

Nov 12, 2006 - 5:44 pm Benjamin:

Simon’s obligatory dig at Stewart and Colbert seems more motivated by politics than anything else. Those guys are in a different branch of comedy (satire, yes, but not in the same way as Borat.)

They have never intended to achieve the “balance” that Simon seems to want (like taking the piss out of feminists AND right wingers.)

They are anti-Bush, and that’s why (I suspect) Simon has his dig.

But the fact they are onesided doesn’t necessarily make them bad or worse comics. Indeed Bush and the administration are a rich source of satire, so any professional would be unlikely to turn down such a promising source of amusement.

Nov 12, 2006 - 5:53 pm El Duderino:

Gentlemen please. All higher culture, including satire, relies on the spiritualisation and intensification of cruelty. Unfortunately for the Kazakhs it’s their turn in the barrel. They and their erstwhile defenders should either laugh with it or ignore it, whining about it only makes the humor more piquant.

Nov 12, 2006 - 5:56 pm Gaijin Biker:

Richard Pryor didn’t need to make unsuspecting people the butt of his jokes. He just got up on stage and did his thing. Or he acted in movies with people who knew they were acting in movies. Baron’s humor is cruel, and depends on tricking people into believing they are appearing in one kind of movie (a serious documentary for release in„ÄÄEastern Europe), when in fact they are appearing in quite another (a mass-market US comedy in which the joke’s on them).

Baron’s associates apparently used outright lies and fraud to induce his victims to sign waivers clearing their appearance in the film. In layman’s terms, that’s a legal no-no. For that reason, I expect at least some of the Borat lawsuits to succeed.

Nov 12, 2006 - 6:20 pm westamastaflash:

This movie has virtually nothing to do with Kazakhstan. He’s making fun of Americans - we’re the brunt of his comedy!

Nov 12, 2006 - 6:31 pm Andy:

I just got out of watching the Borat movie. Having been brought up in England with Monty Python, John Cleese and Roan Atkinson, I am pretty confident I have a well tuned sense of humor….BUT when is someone in this country going to stand up and admit that BORAT is a totally a CRAP movie? I would have walked out if I wasn’t sitting in the middle.

Sure the behaviour of the college kids, the rodeo guy and the christians was a little disturbing but most of the reactions of the Americans involved showed more restraint that he would have received in any other country. This movie is quite moronic.

I love the US and it is my adopted home but I do fear that Americans have been conditioned to believe that if they don’t think all things British are funny then they are lacking some genetic humor defficiency.

Sasha Baron Cohen is very talented and he plays an offensive idiot very well….BUT this is not a funny movie and anyone who thinks it is has a lot more in common with those college idiots than you’d like to think!

Nov 12, 2006 - 6:58 pm Dr Bob:

Just saw the movie yesterday, and frankly was disappointed. Perhaps it was all the “funniest movie ever made” hype–and there were definitely some very funny scenes (the rapper skit at the hotel check-in desk, and the kids running toward the ice cream truck, only to see the bear, come to mind). I guess I’m a bit weary of bawdy and bathroom humor, wherein comedians think if they’re just gross enough, it becomes funny. The Farrelly brothers do this kind of shtick better than anyone, IMO. I’d give it at best a C+, maybe B at most.

Nov 12, 2006 - 7:03 pm Mike Bell:

Gaijin Biker,

>

Oh please. Pryor made fun of white people all the time. And it was FUNNY. (I’m white, btw). So what? Yeesh - if you can’t laugh at yourself, what’s that say about you?

What next? A flurry of Polish lawsuits for every dumb pollack joke ever made? Lawsuits against the creators of All in the Family? How about Don Rickles’ estate?

Dean’s right. It’s not about being PC. It’s about people taking themselves so seriously. The culture of complaint. God forbid anyone gets offended. Boohoohoo.

Nov 12, 2006 - 7:04 pm Ray:

Roger has a lot of courage complimenting something that cannot be scientifically quantified. This brings out the taste and humor cops. For them, I suggest that they give up movies to avoid the possibility of becoming offended. Also give up books and newspapers. Then live a long, dull life.

Nov 12, 2006 - 7:34 pm Kevin:

Compare him to the so much blander Comedy Central duo Stewart and Colbert. It’s hard to imagine either of them with anything close to enough guts to do something as outrageous as the now famous nude wrestling scene in Borat.

Wow, thanks for your outstanding insight into comedy… It would be hard to compare any comedian’s work to the nude wrestling scene in Borat. Not to mention it’s not really the same thing - an R-rated film vs. cable television (not HBO).

Perhaps if there was a ‘daily show’ dedicated to naked, obese vs. skinny, man-on-man wrestling outside of any homo-erotic undertones, you could be satisfied?

Nov 12, 2006 - 7:53 pm Gaijin Biker:

Mike Bell,

There’s a huge difference between Richard Pryor making fun of white people in general, and Cohen tricking actual specific people into embarrassing themselves on camera.

Nov 12, 2006 - 7:58 pm Dom:

I find Borat hysterical. Of course the Kazakhs being upset is understandable but I happen not to care. They can look after themselves. See here.

Nov 12, 2006 - 8:30 pm mDavid:

J’accuse: Sacha Baron Cohen is a traitor of Zion who deserves to be thrown down a well (but a boycott and demand for redress will do),
lest we make our REAL adversaries (the David Dukes, Mel Gibsons, Bin Ladens and Ahmadinejads) correct!

Cohen is a British Jewish aristocrat who has come to America to take a serious position, deriding Bush, the war, and the heartland folk who send their children to fight the war, as a bunch of bloodthirsty hillbillies no more civil than the headchopping neo-nazi islamists we are fighting. And it is in this context that he chooses to poke fun at the irrationality of anti-semitism!
And as he shoves others toward the gas chamber or the scimitar, he is laughing all the way to the bank.

I don’t care about how he shocks and offends relentlessly; I am a loyal fan of Southpark’s
*equal-opportunity* schock-humor. John Podhoretz and you need to take off your rose-colored glasses and see the shit. You imagined a Southpark-like even-handedness that was not present in this movie. The Stadium scene was not remotely counterbalanced by anything else. I know Southpark! I’ve smoked with Southpark! And let me tell you …Borat is NO Southpark!

http://www.mattjacobson.com/archives/2006/11/triumph_des_wil.html#comments

Nov 12, 2006 - 8:49 pm mDavid:

And may I add that, despite my snide tone, I understand your confusion perfectly, Roger, because I was deceived at first too! So this is particularly pernicious! Please reconsider this one. We all make mistakes. I am a fan of your work.

David

Nov 12, 2006 - 8:55 pm Dom:

He’s just funny, for goodness’ sake! Everyone on this thread needs to lighten up.

Nov 12, 2006 - 9:36 pm mike:

benji? Is that you old boy?

Nov 12, 2006 - 10:02 pm nick:

1 Did I say it was funny?

it was an object lessong

2 Nazarbayev lifetime powers and privileges - that shows me Kazakhstan NEEDS NEEDS Insulting!

Nov 12, 2006 - 10:51 pm Glenn:

The Richard Pryor comparison seems way off the mark to me. Richard was a virtuoso stand-up. Cohen does characters. Cohen has more in common with Andy Kaufman. Like Kaufman (Tony Clifton, Latka Gravas), he has created several characters (Ali G, Bruno and Borat). And also like Kaufman, once in character, he stays there. The envelope is then pushed as far as possible. It’s confrontational and in many cases abusive of those who are not in on the joke. People who think he has some kind of political agenda are being totally obtuse. Check out Da Ali G show on DVD. He goes after everyone from Pat Buchanan to Noam Chomsky to Ralph Nader. Also, Kazakhstan is totally arbitrary. Cohen just needed a country that most people don’t know anything about. Yes, he could have created a country like Kaufman, but the joke works much better if people think it’s on the level. It could have just as easily been Uzbekistan or Tajikistan.

Nov 13, 2006 - 12:11 am Ted:

Borat is a film of genius. In 80 mins Cohen makes us laugh at our own ingrained prejudices about other people. He makes us like Borat and find him funny, although logically we shouldn’t at all. He also cleverly has a light hearted laugh at America and the west, by revealing that the backward thinking we often think is confined to backwaters like Kazakhstan is alive and well in our ‘advanced’ countries.

Brilliant stuff.

Nov 13, 2006 - 3:22 am Scott:

To Mike Bell:

Don Rickles isn’t dead yet.

Nov 13, 2006 - 5:25 am Pete Blackwell:

First of all, Kazakhs are not Slavic. They are Central Asians of Turkic extraction. Sure, there are Russians in Kazakhstan, but Borat’s not one of them.

Second, I don’t remember the feminists looking like idiots for anything other than taking Borat seriously at first. Certainly they have far less to be embarrassed about than the rodeo “clown”.

Nov 13, 2006 - 7:10 am Dave Holroyd:

Cohen belongs to the British comic culture and tradition and his comedy has no relationship to Richard Prior. British comedy - still - doesn’t have no go areas. He’s taking the piss (or more PC - extracting the Michael). Just like Spitting Image did in the 80’s. Go luck at how that show treated Ronald Reagan & Margret Thatcher. Even handed? Kazaks are fair game.

Nov 13, 2006 - 7:11 am otis wildflower:

I’m sorry, but Borat is the funniest thing I’ve seen on the big screen since, well, _Monty Python and The Holy Grail_ (when it was rereleased to promote the DVD).

I mean, I was at points where I literally could not breathe, and I was starting to black out (tunnel vision, sparkly stars and all) I was laughing so hard. I thought I was gonna have a bleeding aneurysm and die laughing.

So I’m sorry, y’all can overintellectualize it all you want, but _Borat_ is deeply, viscerally funny and I’m looking forward to the DVD. Verynice!

Nov 13, 2006 - 7:45 am Am I Lost?:

Makes me believe in movies again? Buddy, take it easy on the hyperbole… This is not a great movie, it’s a decent way to forget a rainy day. It’s got its laughs, sure. But you stick a bear in an ice-cream truck and park it in front of eager kids: it’s forced humor. You park a flamboyant sexist in front of some femi-nazis: forced humor. I’m pretty damn comfortable knowing that I’m in a seemingly small minority here - this was at best a decent film. Borat has given me one thing: I can, for probably the next 6 months, with decent accuracy, determine a person’s potential by asking them their opinion on Borat.

Nov 13, 2006 - 8:14 am Ron C:

Well, I think the point of tricking people into thinking they are in a different situation than they are actually in is to get them to be honest to the extent that they would not normally be on camera. The college fraternity idiots are a case in point. If you say it on camera, then be ready for your words to be mocked and derided. It’s not like he was using hidden cameras.

About Khazakstan and specifically this Romanian village that he took advantage of, that is a somewhat different matter. I suppose he had to use a real country to take his gag as far as he did in many cases and I don’t believe he makes any pretense that any of Borat’s, err…idiosyncracies are typical of Khazaks. The Romanian village he pretty much just abused, so maybe he will find it in his heart to make a donation from his newly fattened bank account to get some indoor plumbing or something for that village.

Nov 13, 2006 - 8:45 am mark:

It’s an interesting movie. Most of the people Borat deals with didnt know who he really was, yet some must have. But you cant be sure who is a collaborator and who is not.

What is most revealing about us as a people is that only one person in the entire movie, Allan Keyes , is amused by Borat.

Nov 13, 2006 - 9:44 am RFTR:

See The Departed. It’s another one that deserves to be praised for making one appreciate movies.

Also Thank You For Smoking. These are currently two of my absolute favorites, and I really think they bring movies to realize their possibilities.

Nov 13, 2006 - 9:45 am Webutante:

If we truly can’t enjoy this brillantly funny work and ourselves, then we’ve got a lot worse problems than terrorism to contend with.

I was laughing so hard this morning over some of the clips on YouTube that I couldn’t even answer my phone.

Nov 13, 2006 - 10:26 am LG:

The Kazaks were part of the Soviet Union. It’s OK to make fun of a former enemy.

Nov 13, 2006 - 1:53 pm steve:

The best part about reading the comments is how only about two people saw the movie, and realized the point of it was to absolutely rip the American Deep South and all closeminded thinkers a new one. Almost as good is how the rest of the people spent their time commenting on this “worthless” movie by saying how much smarter they are than everyone else and that it’s no fair to make fun of Kazakhs! Did you see him destroy the merchandise in the shop selling confederate memorabilia to “celebrate their heritage?” Or how about when the rodeo crowd cheered raucously when Borat said “May George W. Bush drink the blood of every man, woman, and child in Iraq!” Or the drunken South Carolina frat boy that waxed poetic about how we should have slaves. Anyone that thinks this is about Kazakhstan in any way is so far off the mark as to be laughably disregarded in this discussion.

Nov 13, 2006 - 3:30 pm none:

I didn’t watch. I’m not going to watch. What are you all wasting your time on again?

Nov 13, 2006 - 6:18 pm Matt:

I saw this film and I must say, while it had sparks of brilliance, overall it just made me sad.

Humor is one thing, but Borat was playing on people’s kind nature to make them look like fools or worse.

Is this really want we want are humor to be about? What about the poor lady who scheduled Borat’s appearance on the TV morning show. I read in the paper she was fired for that. How about the poor older Jewish couple that opened their house up as a Bead and Breakfast. Maybe they were in on the joke, I certainly hope so for if they were not this movie was especially cruel. Even if you want to look at those stupid frat boys, Borat’s film crew got them so drunk I am not sure they knew what they were saying. Also, if they really are that racists they seemed to have no problem opening up to a non Anglo Saxon and seemed to really wish him well at the end of their talk.

I think the only one who should be laughing here is Cohen himself. Laughing all the way to the bank that he can make so much money by relying on people’s charity and goodness and then throwing that all right back in their face.

Matt

Nov 14, 2006 - 12:19 pm JT:

I don’t know what some of you are talking about. The people in the film who behaved cordially, like the Jewish Bed and Breakfast couple, the woman at the dinner party who instructs Borat on bathroom etiquette, the driving instructor (and many more) are not being mocked in the film. They come off as the gracious, kind people they obviously are. The only people who look bad are the ones who make racist, homophobic or anti-semitic remarks. As for the crowd at the rodeo, the camera shows some faces reacting with disapproval as they start to hear Borat going off the deep end in his remarks. This film shows that there is a great deal of tolerance and openness in parts of America that usually get a bad rap. It’s non-partisan in that way.

Nov 14, 2006 - 2:03 pm mDavidj:

Matt [legalparis?]:

Your exposure of the depth of sbc’s offense is brilliant!

Our Boycott Borat campaign has commenced and is already facing significant resistance by the B.O.Rats. Obviously their war-chest is overwhelming, but our truth is a laser, and it may come down to a davidbowie-mediated walk-off.

JT: ImHubristicO, even VforVendetta can be rationalized as “non-partisan.”

Let’s see how intelligent muslims downunder read it:

Rutger:
I believe Sacha reveals his political persausion, in a satirical way, at the rodeo…

“My Name is Borat, I come from Kazakhstan”
*Small applause*
“Can I say at first, we support your war of terror”
*Loud cheer*
“May we show our support for the boys in Iraq”
*Massive cheer*
“May the US and A kill every single terrorist”
*Massive cheer*
“May your George Bush drink the blood of every single man, woman and child of Iraq”
*Cheer starts loud but dies fairly quickly*
“May you destroy their country so that for the next thousand years not even a single lizard will survive in their desert”
*Small cheer starts but quickly becomes polite clapping*

dachlostar:
Boocott Borat? Never!!!
How could I boycott a guy who stood up at an American rodeo and said “we support you in your terrorist war”?

Nov 14, 2006 - 5:01 pm stro:

I think people who see the rodeo scene as an insult are missing the point by focusing on the politics instead of the character. Borat, in addition to being a jew-fearing third worlder, is a supporter and admirer of America. Just what do you think it sounds like when someone from a country that kills jews, gays, and gypsies wishes you luck in your war? Probably something like “May you destroy their country so that for the next thousand years not even a single lizard will survive in their desert!”

There’s plenty of ways to enjoy this movie, whether it’s America’s befuddled hospitality, open hostility, or creepy support for the greatest parody of third world ignorance and cognitive dissonance (”My producer did not want to fly in case the Jews attempted another 9-11.”) that I’ve ever seen.

Nov 15, 2006 - 10:50 am Daniel Jackson:

Years ago, when the Polish jokes were “all the rage” among civil rights liberals, there was always ONE joke set aside for those who objected–especially if they said, “Hey! I’m Polish!”

Well, the reponse ran, I will tell the jokes slower.

Nov 16, 2006 - 3:45 am Raphael:

Patrick,

My family are Jews from former Soviet Central Asia, including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan. They have many great memories and friends there. But they also had their share of Borats and their simplistic anti-Semitism, misogyny, homophobia, cruelty. Let me tell you that while it’s crystal clear the joke is more on us in the West then Kazakhs, we as Jews who took “Borat’s” punches there for hundreds of years really don’t mind if a few a Kazakhs accidentally take some punches by Mr. Cohen.

Nov 17, 2006 - 4:32 am EstoniaKat:

I saw Borat in Tallinn, Estonia, last night. My only exposure to Cohen in the past had been a few of his Ali G clips, which left me bored and cold.

You know those times when you laugh so hard you can’t stop laughing? I was in bed with my wife until 1 a.m. last night just rolled over in laughter, as we recited scene after scene.

* Azamat, the producer who wouldn’t fly in case the Jews tried to pull another 9/11

* The little kids that go running in terror at the bear in the ice cream truck

* The chicken on the A-train

* Throwing money at the cockroaches, and the ode to the Blair Witch Project

* Chasing New Yorkers through the streets

* Borat’s Pamela Anderson marriage bag

* The feminists

* The gun shop

* The humvee seller

Yeah, some of the humor was mean, especially to the dinner hosts “you two women would be very popular in Kazahstan. You, not so much …” But I respect it at least as a movie that took risks, which is something you don’t see very much anymore. I easily would have paid double for that movie. Best comedy I can remember … forever.

BTW, in the “Now Stand for the National Anthem” credit roll, some of the visuals were from Soviet-era Estonian commercials, especially the girl licking the ice cream cone.

So, Cohen, the proud Republic of Estonia will be suing you, too …

Nov 18, 2006 - 2:22 pm

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