188 Comments

1. sqt:

Hm, I’d like to hear from your wife that she “wakes up singing.” Then, maybe, I’ll believe your side of the story.

Jun 23, 2009 - 5:46 pm 2. mandy:

Absolutely! How do you respect someone who lets you dominate them? These beotches have no repect whatsoever for these chumps. A woman does, however have respect for a strong man who doesn’t dominate, but is who he’s supposed to be: The stronger sex!

Jun 23, 2009 - 6:28 pm 3. When multiculturalism works « Idea Anaconda:

[...] Here’s Andrew Klavan on the staggering number of (American) women who control their emasculated husbands: [...]

Jun 23, 2009 - 6:43 pm 4. MyWifesHero:

Early in my marriage, my wife wanted the equal sharing thing, and I gave it to her. She worked too at the start, and realized that she hated that. We realized this wasn’t playing to our strengths, it was making each of miserable.
Now, she does the woman’s work, I do the man’s work, and she thinks I’m a hero because I bring home a good paycheck while I marvel at the things she does in our home.
It’s weird that I make much more alone when focused than we both did working and our family is much happier too.

Jun 23, 2009 - 6:50 pm 5. Leah:

I’m like your wife, married for 30 years to a wonderful man. Years ago, I was at some event and was talking about my creative hobbies. Someone asked me what I do for a living. I said, I have a husband and I make sure he is happy. The men could relate, the women had daggers in their eyes.
These days, with the kids grown I have the luxury of being a professional volunteer.

Jun 23, 2009 - 7:30 pm 6. CPAMAN:

Yes. I’m not crazy. Nothing like running into a peice that fits my mindset perfectly.

Being a poodle is not good for your mental well being.

Asking permission to play golf should never be an option for a man.

Modern marriage is a joke and the sad thing is that the poodles don’t even realize that they have been castrated.

Jun 23, 2009 - 7:52 pm 7. KCL:

I can see your point to a degree, but the question I have is that is it entirely feminism’s fault? If men have been emasculated, then haven’t they allowed themselves to be? Why have they succumbed to the pressure of political correctness? I would also argue that Hollywood films don’t reflect the realities of typical contemporary couples. I actually believe the trend is a return to the traditional roles of marriage. Frankly, I married a “traditional man” as well. I basically suspended my career to stay home with our two boys, a job a enjoy more than I thought I would. It sure beats occupying a cubicle. I do the cooking, cleaning, and child-rearing for the most part. I don’t tell him what to do, I ask him if he’ll do it and vice versa. If he wanted to go out for a beer with his friends, he could, but he’d rather be at home. Frankly, most of the stay-at-home moms I know practice this similar distribution of traditional wife/husband responsibility. One reason is that lot of us are products of broken homes and want a more stable environment to raise our kids. Secondly, we married later – like late 20’s/early 30’s. Our husbands got a lot of the rebel rousing out of their systems and were ready to upgrade to a mature relationship. We wives worked a while and realized a “successful” career isn’t always what’s its cracked up to be. I’d rather spend the day digging for worms in the backyard with my boys, than sitting in meetings all day like my sweet husband. Personally, I think I got the better end of the deal.

Jun 23, 2009 - 8:02 pm 8. Tara Lynn Thompson:

You’re gutsy Drew. Thank God.

I can’t remark on the whole “sharing” bit. I’m single. This means the left blinker in my Jeep remains burned out and anything requiring more than a Phillips screwdriver stays broken.
But my laundry is done, my groceries are ample, and I mourn the loss of masculine men every time someone says “High School Musical”. As much as men love femininity, women love masculinity.

Sadly, however, most don’t know it.

Jun 23, 2009 - 8:04 pm 9. Judiith:

Just be a mensch (gentleman). Treat your wife w/ respect & she will indeed sing in the morning, as you say. Contributing to the household chores & picking-up after yourself is not a sign of male weakness but of respect for your wife…real men don’t get hung-up on gender roles (Todd Palin comes to mind.) Maybe you can “buy companionship” of the one-night-stand kind, but you can’t buy the companionship of understanding where another person just gets you & complements you.

Jun 23, 2009 - 8:22 pm 10. John Reid:

Any Sterling men out there?
You know who you are and what I’m talking about.

Jun 23, 2009 - 10:57 pm 11. Pajamas Media » American Manhood as Nursery School:

[...] Read the entire post here. [...]

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:04 am 12. LeighB:

Ah, menchildren. The best reason to remain single. Seriously, what is in it for the women/girls who try to love such creatures?

I dunno…if I watched The Hangover I’d have to watch about a half-dozen John Wayne movies afterwards. Makes sense to me, anyway.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:03 am 13. Don:

I saw the movie WITH my wife . . . and was a bit discomforted by the scene with the dentist and his fiance (in the beginning) because of the way she behaved towards him . . . I laughed, but took a quick glance at the Frau . . .

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:05 am 14. Webutante:

We were all sold a bill of goods about marriage in the 60s and, ya know what? after we lived it and came to our senses, women, deep down don’t want men/poodles for husbands either, and never did, deep down.

Men were created to be the headship of the family and those who abdicate, do so to their and their family’s great detriment.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:23 am 15. Rev316:

We are all living in a culture that was sold to us as the liberal dream, but it turns out to be a nightmare of chaos and destruction.

Women are supposed to be just like men, and the only way to do that is to downgrade men from being manly, which makes it easier for women to be the man of the house. Men are raised thinking that being a kid is your goal in life, so you wife/mommy will tell you what to do — you don’t have to think for yourself because your wife/mommy wants to do the thinking and lead the family.

Women are the biggest victims and oppressors in this perverted scenario, when the culture tells women to have sex with a long line of temporary suitors, even have babies with these temporary guys, but then settle down with a meek pushover who will love to raise the children of another man, (another man who is too cool to be tied down by raising his own kids).

The culture is anti-family and pro-immorality. It is short-term fun with long-term devastation.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:06 am 16. Joshua:

But when you’re done, answer me this: why would a man get married under any other circumstances? I’m serious. What’s in it for him? I mean, marriage is a large sacrifice for a man. He gives up his right to sleep with a variety of partners, which is as basic an urge in men as having children is in women. He takes on responsibilities which will probably curtail both his work and his social life. If he doesn’t also acquire authority, gravitas, respect and, yes, mastery over his own home, what does he get?

Some people would simply answer “an eternal reward in heaven after you die”, an incentive that (at least in theory) should trump all of the above. Of course, this is only an incentive if you believe in such things in the first place, and I suspect this is part of the problem for marriage (and a number of other things) in Western civ.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:29 am 17. Samus Aran:

My husband neglected me emotionally and physically and so I found other men to do what he was too self-absorbed and selfish to do. It worked out great and I ended up waking up singing in the morning because I was finally satisfied…by someone else.

Be careful what you wish for.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:33 am 18. Thomas L......:

There are certain immutable truths in this life. Every man, woman and poodle must fight for the right to party.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:33 am 19. Bernard Chapin:

Great observations Andrew and you’re 100 percent correct. Men must ask “what’s in it for me” nowadays, and, aside from children, there aren’t a lot of answers.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:51 am 20. Brownie Matlack:

Excellent article and the truth. That awful Jon and Kate thing is a perfect example of what you are talking about. Men don’t know how to be husbands anymore and women don’t know how to be wives.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:58 am 21. Tanya:

To add global prespective to Andrews mussings, according to Daniel Pipes; feminism is the root cause of the present clash between Muslim and “Western” society, beginning with the “Sexual Revolution” in the late 50’s.

Consider that ultimate subjugation as our men go to war to defend feminist ideals.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:01 am 22. Jack:

I enjoyed the sputtering irritation of some of these women posters. Men shouldn’t marry because, frankly, today’s women aren’t worth it. Why would any man shackle himself in a legally binding sense to an emotional nutbag, which feminism, in two short generations, have rendering a once fascinting population of women.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:02 am 23. Delia:

I wake up singing in the morning too. Thank goodness for batteries.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:02 am 24. mac:

I wonder if the cowed man is a function of the adolescent mindset. Boys are not required to become men anymore because (progressive) society has taught that men are no longer needed. The schools require boys to be dainty and overbearing parents (including cowed husbands) never let their boys be rough and tumble or, heaven forbid, they may get hurt. Then some clipped haired social worker will come and take the boy away because the parents were ‘negligent’.

Thus, boys look for their metaphorical mother to marry and he endures the abuse because he has never learned what responsibility looks like.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:09 am 25. JST:

From what I’m reading here I guess my spouse and I have been doing this marriage thing wrong for 30+ years – we respect each other, check with each other on activities like playing golf or outings with friends, share the household duties equally, bring home comparable paychecks, raised kids who are wonderful, caring, successful adults, and we are still very much in love and enjoy each doing most things together. According to Andrew and others posted here, you can’t possibly be happy in a marriage like ours. Yes you can.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:24 am 26. Delia:

What’s in it for us?

Married people live longer.

-But, sometimes I wonder if ‘we married folk’ live longer out of spite because we want to see the ‘other person’ die…first.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:42 am 27. Monty:

I made the same feelings clear to my ex. She chose the “door” option, and in retrospect, that’s probably the best thing. She was (and is) a profoundly unhappy person, and she thought it was the marriage that was making her unhappy. Well, surprise! She’s got the same problems now that she did before — worse, in fact, because she got used to a certain standard of living while being married to me that she can’t sustain on her own. I only thank God that we had no children as it made the whole process that much less painful.

I think that women are finding out that all those things the feminist revolution brought — promiscuity, autonomy, and a female-centric popular culture — actually made their lives worse instead of better. Men have know this for years.

You only have to look at the wreckage of the American family to see the grim results of this social experiment. In the middle class, child-rearing is handed off to strangers because both Mom and Dad work; in the poorer strata, marriage itself is nearly unknown as women move from man to man and the men stay in a perpetual state of adolescence.

The sixties revolution didn’t “free” women; it simply infantilized everyone and abolished the culture of true adulthood. Think about it: do you think of a twentysomething as really grown-up? I don’t. And yet my grandparents were formidably adult by the time they were in their early 20’s.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:49 am 28. Steve:

You’re onto something Andrew. Even though my wife is, right now, the sole bread-winner and I’m a stay-at-home dad (due to economic circumstance, and not choice–although I don’t mind too much), she still almost inherently leans towards a more traditional view of gender roles in marriage. Fine by me.

Yes, we share housework, and I do more of the child-rearing right now, but still, she does almost all the cooking.

Of course, that could be just because what I cook tastes like crap.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:52 am 29. RobertG:

Hollywood and their illegitimate children in TV Land have been trash for generations. It is mostly vulgar people with a vulgar agenda and best avoided.

“Men” take care of their family and do such silly things as “Work”. Metrosexuals worry about junk science and feelings.

“Women” take care of their family and do such silly things as “Work” at home or elsewhere. I do not care about the others.

Grand kids love SpongBobSquarePants and Princess cartoons as well as the 65 year old Disney films. Grotesquerie and grossness movies and TV shows are not needed.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:04 am 30. Emma:

Very true and gutsy to say. I’ve read some feminist books recently that have bemoaned the return to traditional gender roles in many marriages and cried that women who are still choosing to be a housewife after all the advances in feminism are betraying their fellow women. And it never occurs to them that maybe traditional gender rules are a good thing for many reasons!

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:07 am 31. Lynn:

I don’t know, but most young men I knew spent the first half of their youth searching for a woman to love, and the second half bitching about it.

and…bleck! Bragging about a ‘happy’ relationship, with a ‘happy’ woman who sings a ‘happy’ song and happily takes second place to a ‘happy’ man is a sure sign of bu!! in the house.

What is in it for men (marriage)? Well, just about everything, unless you wanna say that G_d got it wrong. Go ahead.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:19 am 32. Jettboy:

Two words: Jon and Kate.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:22 am 33. Self-hating Boomer:

I wonder if the cowed man is a function of the adolescent mindset.

That’s bull. The cowed man is a consequence of a couple of aspects of the older paradigm; chivalry and stoicism. Between not wanting to fight a woman over anything, and not wanting to voice any grievances of any sort, he was completely defenseless against the attack of the shrews. This remains a problem to this day.

At some point, you have to wake up and realize that you can’t fight Gramscians like a gentleman. But most haven’t figured that out. They just went Galt, instead.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:29 am 34. Delia:

I think when men want to be perpetual ‘frat boys’ with ‘wife’ it doesn’t work either.

Men should not be lap-dogs any more than women should be ‘owned’ and enslaved by husbands either.

If you don’t want to respect the person you are with and commit to your relationship you will end up divorced and repeating the same mistakes over and over. It takes ‘two’ to eff up no matter how ‘innocent’ some people think they are in a break-up.

If your relationship is so shoddy that you have the attitude, “Hey, there’s the door” then, good luck trusting that the person you’re sleeping next to is ‘faithful’ to you. If your relationship is built on, “what am *I* getting out of this?” then, good luck with that when the other person you’re bedding starts asking the very same question.

Romance dies pretty quick when people fail to put a little work into a relationship and that does mean that you respect your mate enough to let them know where the heck you are and when you will be home. Common decency and manners should not be looked on as ‘weakness’.

BTW, my husband does his own laundry and he has for the past 17 years. I quit doing his laundry when he didn’t care enough to shake the dirt/dust/debris off of his clothing or take the crap out of his pockets. I didn’t want to ‘nag’ him incessantly so I opted for him to look like a slob or take care of his own slovenly crap. Hell, I’m not his mother and he handles his own ‘big boy’ stuff.

I also stopped caring about how the house looked. I let things ‘go’ because I was becoming a ‘nag’. My husband let his ‘looks’ go years ago even though I kept myself fit and beautiful. Maybe I should get really fat and give up on love.

Perhaps men and women really do hate each other on many levels. I guess it is a miracle any of us are here at all.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:38 am 35. Monty:

What is in it for men (marriage)? Well, just about everything

Well, let’s see. Let’s bypass the expense (which almost always falls predominantly on the man, regardless of the job situation of the spouses). A man gives up a large part of his social life when he gets married: weekends camping with friends, bowling nights, poker nights, videogame marathons, car shows, whatnot. In short, all that stuff that men find fun. Life becomes a process of keeping the mortgage paid, saving money for the kids’ college, buying clothes, paying for insurance, etc. Nothing is ever said about this sacrifice because women pretty much expect it after the marriage vows are spoken. (Sure, some don’t — but they are in the minority.)

So a man basically becomes a packmule until the kids are grown and out of the house. He lives for the day when this weight is lifted, a day when he (and hopefully his wife) can go back to doing fun things again.

But women (in my experience)have no intention of making these sacrifices. They insist on “me-time”, a career, friends, etc. And many women have very unbalanced expectations of how much money they put into the marriage — it’s expected that the man will foot the bulk of the bills because that’s what men do. But at the same time women also expect men to “pitch in more around the house”. Like I said: men in marriage often become simple drudges, a wallet with legs.

I’ve always been amazed when I hear that some old couple has been married for forty or fifty or sixty years because I have a hard time imagining a relationship lasting that long. And most often, love alone doesn’t explain it. It boils down to a sense of sharing, respect, and maybe even a good old-fashioned dose of responsibility. I suspect that this world has passed away forever, given the kiss-off by Baby Boomers who can’t imagine a world that doesn’t revolve around them. And their children and grandchildren have partaken of this selfish worldview in full measure.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:39 am 36. Monty:

I should add that I found The Hangover to be pretty damned hilarious. (How did the chicken get into the room? We don’t know and the movie never tells us. Genius.)

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:42 am 37. Confounded:

*sigh* I’m posting my thoughts here, hoping that my wife NEVER reads this.

I am married to a wonderful, deep, faithful, and God-fearing woman… who also happens to be a dedicated professional.

Among other things, that means we are caught in the modern-day feminist snare.

She works a lot, as do I. We are both CONSTANTLY fatigued. Our child is in day-care (during the summer) for 30 hours per week. Our house is a perpetual disaster area. The lawn gets mowed half as often as it should. We eat maybe four meals together every week. No chores get done until after a little quality time with the child every night. (Which means we are always staying up later than our bodies want us to.)

And, of course, we are strapped into a house that we could not afford on just my salary.

I wouldn’t say that I’m miserable, but I do occasionally wonder what it would have been like to settle for a less-awesome wife who would be content to stay home with the kid, and run our household affairs. (But, again, my wife is a wonderful woman and mother.)

Anyway, if she were to put aside her career for a few years, we could both have some relaxing evenings, just enjoying each others’ company. The pace would slow down. And, heck, my wife might even find her misplaced libido.

(And, for those of you ready to snipe at me: I have offered to be a stay-at-home dad, if she is willing to go to work full-time at a place that offers benefits. She isn’t interested in being THAT much of a man.)

Thx for listening. And, if you see my wife, remember… this is our little secret.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:50 am 38. Stickwick Stapers:

Oh, how I loathe the man-boy. Give me a king of the castle any day.

My husband is a super-alpha male. He wants me to be happy, but he does what he wants and makes no apologies for who he is. When we have a conflict, he stands his ground when he believes he’s right, which I respect immensely. But by respecting him, I’ve managed to have a big influence in a subtle way. Marriage is so much better when we women understand it’s our job to civilize our men, not domesticate them.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:58 am 39. Delia:

Monty,

Uhhhhhhhh. My husband never ‘gave up’ what he wanted to do. He partied, golfed, played in ‘bands’ while my daughter and I were left alone without him.

My husband played ‘decision maker’ and forced my hand in a lot of critical decisions I was patently against. Now he’s paying the karma. No more golfing, no more ‘fun’, no more ‘buddy’ time and all because he made some really bad decisions and didn’t listen to me.

He had all the ‘bennies’ of a wife who cooks like a gourmet chef, home-schooled our child, helped START and run our business and made him look ’smarter’ than he was, gave him his two minutes of ’snore’ in the sack, gave ‘his’ family more time than my own when it came to holidays, I could go on and freakin’ on. yadda-yadda

-And, yet *I* wasn’t supposed to have the same ‘freedoms’ because I am a good looking woman and I can’t go out on my own because maybe, just maybe some man will ‘hit’ on me. 23 years together and I love him and hate him all at once. lol

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:00 am 40. RA:

This article is right on. Notice the disclaimer at the end to prempt the inevitable feminazi, harpy answer. “Another man abusing his wife”.

For women like this the “ten foot pole” rule is invoked. For anything other than free sex, a ten foot pole should be kept between the man and women like these. Marry one and ruin your life.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:02 am 41. Cathy:

My husband is also the traditional type. I love being a wife and a lover to my husband, and love to take care of him. I believe it is the greatest compliment when a man gives himself unconditionally to his wife. The feminist movement has confused women and has made them reject their natural instincts. I am grateful to the feminists who made it possible for our right to vote, and equality in the workplace (to an extent). But don’t tell me that being a loving wife, mother and caretaker of the family is being a slave to my man. It makes me mental when I hear that! I am a better woman becuase of my husband, and he has told me the same.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:03 am 42. Stickwick Stapers:

Dear Confounded, I sympathize. I have a Ph.D. in a hard science, and find myself increasingly wanting to stay home. I toil away in anticipation of the weekend, when I can just take care of my man and my home. That’s when I’m happiest. It’s biological, can’t fight it. I have found a way to utilize my education and work part-time from home. My husband knows I intend to quit working full-time next year, and is making the necessary accomodations. Nothing is worth the situation you describe, especially being separated from one’s own baby for 30 hours a week, and depriving a husband of a joyous sex life.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:04 am 43. BettyBlue:

Delia, great posts.

Just an afterthought—any time, for anybody, male or female; if your attitude towards your partner is, “If you don’t like it, there’s the door”, don’t be too shocked if they choose the door.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:06 am 44. Cathy:

I agree with Monty #35, I know alot of women who are this way, and it sad. They wonder why their husbands work so late, and don’t look forward to coming home at the end of the day. It’s all about respect for your husband and wife.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:08 am 45. Delia:

Dang. I really sound bitter. I do love my husband a lot and could never imagine my life without him.

He really peeved me off this morning and I think it spilled out on this thread.

Sorry. I’lllllllll shaddup now. The ‘internet’ is one of the few places I truly feel ‘free’ but, that can be dangerous. lol

37. Confounded,

I love being a house wife [I was kidding about my house being a mess btw, my house is creepily clean and it's huge so it's a lot of work. When our business was doing really well my husband tried to talk me into getting a 'maid' so I didn't have to do so much housework but I refused because I actually enjoy cleaning stuff up even though I have really bad allergies to dust so I have to keep it up moreso than most people so I don't go into a full-blown sneeze-attack].

Maybe I’m just weird that I enjoy cooking and cleaning and being ‘home’?

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:10 am 46. Monty:

Delia and Cathy:

I guess it’s easy to come off sounding bitter and angry when you have been through bad relationships and/or divorces. I think the key missing component these days is compromise. Both the man and the woman want it all, and that’s just not possible. It never was, but I think the older people were more able to make their peace with the compromises required to make a marriage work.

I liked being married. (More than my wife did, as it turned out.) But I knew going in that it would require some changes to my own attitudes and lifestyle, whereas my wife seemed to think of it more as a way to augment her lifestyle. She was quite honestly taken aback when I divorced her for infidelity, because I think in her mind it was simply her prerogative as a liberated woman. Well, I accept that marriage means I can’t have sex with any woman I want to, and I insist on the same behavior from my wife. I don’t share.

The “grass is always greener” mentality is death to a marriage. My ex slept with another man because I guess she found him more exciting, but after the divorce she only stayed with him for about six months before moving on again. I guess once the illicit thrill was gone, there was no point to it. I felt like a damned fool for having stayed faithful for so long, but relieved that it was finally over.

I’ve come to think since that men and women get married for very different reasons. Men marry women for who they are; women seem to marry men for who they could be (given a dose of female insight).

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:31 am 47. Delia:

BettyBlue,

Agree with your afterthought post.

Monty,

I agree about the ‘cheating’ thing and I’ll never understand ‘open’ marriages. Weirdness.

I’ll tell ya a short little story [yeah, I know I said I was gonna 'shaddup' but, typical right? lol!].

My husband once came home after a particularily gruelling day at work and he said, “Angel, I’m so glad you run the house because I just couldn’t do it.”

I once went on a ‘cooking’ strike because my husband made the mistake of saying, “It doesn’t matter if you cook or not. I don’t care either way.” Which really hurt my feelings. He quickly realized how much he was missing when there were no homemade ‘goodies’ to eat.

When my husband told me ‘my job’ wasn’t as important as ‘his’, I let the house become a mess and everything pile up [which are mostly his 'messes' because I am not a mess maker by habit]. He apologized and realized how much I *DO* do.

My husband is computer-tarded and has relied on me create and up-keep our website as well as help him doing the most basic things like sending an email or creating word documents to print up.

We have both learned and grown together and sometimes regressed back two steps a time or two as well.

Has my husband changed because of me? No. Has he learned better skills and behaviors because of me? Yes. He has also done the same for me. I have also learned a lot from my own daughter.

We are always learning.

We can learn to be better people and we can also learn to be bigger jerks. It’s up to us how we treat and love each other. No excuses.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:05 am 48. Monty:

Funny thing about the movie itself: based on an informal survey of my friends, the guys all thought it was hilarious while the ladies were pretty meh about it. And most of the positive female opinion came from the single women; the married ladies all pretty much hated it. Not a scientific sampling, I guess, but there it is.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:17 am 49. Larry C:

What’s all this about men being the slobs? My wife couldn’t clean a house if her life depended on it. I have to come home from work every day and the house is a complete, utter mess. Not only that, but if I mentally accept the fact the house is a mess, there’ll be something like a spilled drink or dog feces on the floor. And I’m tired of being the “heavy” when it comes to making the kids pick up, trying to set an example, all the while my wife is dropping wrappers Little Debbie wrappers on the floor and throwing laundry in the hallway….and she’s now a stay-at-home mom. My Saturday’s are wasted organizing the kids to clean up the house, and find where the pets peed on the floor so we can clean it up (if we’re lucky, they peed on some of the clothes so they can go straight into the washer). We can’t invite anyone over, we can’t have guests, it’s a nightmare. I love my wife, but I hate going home to her, knowing that I have to work my ass off to get the house into some semblance of cleanliness only to see it just as filthy when I get home the next day.

So, let’s stop stereotyping men as the slobs.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:23 am 50. Delia:

Larry C,

By bring up the fact that *MY* husband is a slob [he was that way when I met him, so I knew what I was *in* for as far as 'home trainin'], I was NOT saying that ‘ALL’ men are bears with furniture.

I’m also hyper-organized. I have to overhaul my husband’s ‘office’/monkey-den every so often because it’s the only room in the house that is a perpetual Jabba-the-mess. How he knows where ANYTHING is in that office of his is beyond me but, he does. lol

He’s Oscar and I’m Felix.

I’ve known women slobs. Ohhhhhhh yes. One of my best friends had a room that was buried in laundry, records, assorted assh-trays and other misc. ’stuff’ etc. I didn’t mind her ‘mess’ but I sure as heck could not have lived in that. My maternal grandmother was a total slob. Some of my neighbors from my previous neighborhood were full on PIGS.

But, that being said, I’ve hardly known many men that care if their shower is covered in chest hair or their toilet has a nasty ring around it. he-he

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:35 am 51. Delia:

‘bringing up’ not ‘bring’

ack

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:36 am 52. Lynn:

#35 Monty

I didn’t write to address a failed marriage, but to say that generally a man who falls in love with a woman has everything to gain. Many of the things that you point out as ‘fun’ can be done with your kids, or with your wife, or with your wife and friends or with your friends while she does her thing with her friends.

It isn’t perfection, and it isn’t always easy, but sometimes setting aside childish things and childish behavior makes a better man (and woman). Maybe the lack of perfection in marriage is what sours some people especially if it is expected.

I was also thinking that the lasting marriage rate in the United States is in the fifty percent range although not ideal, is not such a horrible thing or reason to assume the sky is falling. If the chances of winning the lottery were the same, people would be flocking to the store buying tickets.

Finally writing as if wimpy men are a new invention is wrong because I learned from my father-in-law, back in his time they were assigned the term ‘milk-toast’. Also woman who did not stand up for themselves are also a reality. It’s the way we are, imperfect, fallible and prone to be our own worst enemies, the human condition.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:36 am 53. Meryl:

Well, we have a sissy, girly-man “president” which should surely make all these wannabe-men feel better about themselves.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:52 am 54. GeronimoRumplestiltskin:

Feminism’s philosophical error lies in replacing the ideal of men and women being equal with the ideal of men and women being identical. The human male and female are equal; however, they are not alike, but rather complimentary. This attempt to rework human nature is doomed to fail and leave misery in its wake.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:03 am 55. Monty:

But, that being said, I’ve hardly known many men that care if their shower is covered in chest hair or their toilet has a nasty ring around it. he-he

Guilty as charged. My strategy is just to replace the bathtub when the bacteria which inhabit it become sentient. Until then we have established strict rules of engagement; so far, the truce has held. And if the toilet gets too nasty…hell, I’ve got a patch of woods right next to my back yard.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:45 am 56. aclay1:

The modern, liberal world has gotten things backwards yet again. In general, women prior to marriage are doormats, post-marriage domineering. Not surprisingly, marriage rates are going down, and men who do marry are doing so later. Why not?

Wouldn’t women be better off if they treated themselves with a little more self-respect when single and treated their husbands (and lifetime companions) better once they have picked the one? The way current culture encourages women to behave ensures they are dissastified their entire lives.

All things considered, it’s better to be a man because pre-marriage life is fun, and if a man is smart in his choice of mate, post-marriage life can be wonderful. The bulk of women, however, are unhappy before and after marriage. There is a solution – behave like ladies. Our grand-parents had it figured out – how come all the smart people in Manhattan and Santa Monica don’t?

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:10 am 57. Oldguy:

Don’t worry young men, Islam will fix all this feminism for you. Face the right way on your prayer rug six times a day and observe other minor rules and Islam will give you back your balls.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:20 am 58. Night Owl:

Not sure about the stats from the guy who said women didn’t like this movie.

I, a married 46 yr. old woman, saw the movie with my 67 yr. old mother, my 42 yr. old sister and her 40ish girlfriend, and the girlfriend’s 60ish mother. We all laughed our asses off.

It was a slapstick cartoon. I’m not sure why anyone would try to read something deep from a movie like this.

PS: yes the dentist’s wife was a shrew! Any man who would put up with a woman like that is NOT A MAN!

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:31 am 59. cathy:

Monty~ I’m 30, and grew up thinking not to depend on anyone but myself. I had to get over that very quick, if I wanted my marriage to be successfull. Getting over yourself is hard to do, but putting my man and marriage first, was more important. It’s disappointing that there are alot of women like your ex, they just don’t know what they are missing when you can share in letting go and losing yourself in your partner and vice versa. I’ve only been married 7 years, and I love every minute of it, even the bad parts.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:40 am 60. cathy:

#57- LOL!

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:41 am 61. Delia:

GeronimoRumplestiltskin, you’re onto something there.

Monty, your last post was HILARIOUS! Ha-ha! Loved your honesty.

aclay1: “behave like ladies”?

Uhhhhh. So let me get this straight, aclay1. Men should be able to be natural, beasty brutes and women should be ‘ladies’? What if women have a ‘dark’ side too? What if women can be just as ‘brutish’ as men?. . . because [believe me, I've seen it, they CAN be]. When men want to succumb to their sexual urges they are ’studs’ and when women have the same strong desires for sex they are ’sluts’?

-And, let’s face it. Most men don’t want a ‘lady’ in their bed. -Just sayin’. *giggles innocently*

If my husband were a girlie man I’d gross out big time. He’s a big, brutish hairy beast of a man and I love him for him and I wouldn’t want him waxing his butt or getting mani-pedis. Heck, I don’t even get manicures [never had one in my life].

Sometimes working through problems is the hardest thing of all. Sometimes men want their women to be like their ‘buddies’ and sometimes women want their men to be like their ‘girlfriends’ and that just ain’t gonna jive. It’s not just biology, it can be personality clashes that have to be ironed out. Imagine being with someone for life and NOT finding differences or arguments? If someone is looking for a mirror of themselves rather than someone who is a separate entity…uhhhhhhhh…you are gonna be one lonely person.

When my husband and I were going through the first five years of our marriage he had a friend/employee who I HATED with a passion of a thousand suns because he was an a-hole to the umpteenth degree. This guy [I'll call him 'Dick'] would constantly influence my husband to go to the bar after work. I would be at home with our daughter worried sick [and mind you, this was before cell-phones].

Well, my husband would constantly tell me that Dick’s wife didn’t have any problems with Dick going fishing, drinking, partying and hanging out with the boys or even going to ’stripper bars’. I was like, “Oh rehehehehehehealllllllly? Well, I’m NOT Dick’s wife!” This argument between us would drive me batty. Dick’s wife “let’s” Dick do whatever he wants, blah-blah-blah ad infinitum. I would tell my husband, “Chances are she doesn’t care about him. I actually CARE about your fuzzy arse and I WORRY.”

So, flash forward a few years later. It turns out “Dick’s wife” had been cheating on “DICK” for years with his BEST FRIEND and they divorced. Dick ended up getting a DNA test to find out of his only child was even his.

A few years later Dick also admitted to my husband that he was jealous of my husband and I’s marriage and that he had a little ‘crush’ on me. I personally think he was constantly trying to get my husband to upset me on purpous because he had a little ‘thing’ for me and was hoping to break us up.

Almost all of my husband’s ‘friends’ [and brothers too for that matter *cough-cough*] have tried to flirt with me/hit on me at one time or another and ‘Dick’ was no exception.

Dick later married and divorced again and has not been heard from in many years…THANK GAWWWWWWWWWD.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:07 am 62. Paul:

Delia said “What’s in it for us?
Married people live longer.”

Not really. It just seems that way.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:33 am 63. Chelsea:

Um, I’m not sure this is all feminism’s fault. I have known many men (including my ex-husband), who have had the choice between a woman who wants them to be the king of the castle and a woman who bullies/berates/mommies them. They chose the latter.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:35 am 64. Delia:

Samus Aran, please tell me you were joking to make a weird point.

Jack, who told you you have to marry anyone? With the divorce rate as high as it is, only the lawyers are laughing their way all the way to the bank. If you want to remain single and childless all of your life then you should. Maybe if more people didn’t marry when they aren’t really ready to do the hard work that marriage requires this world would be a better place.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:42 am 65. Delia:

62. Paul:

Delia said “What’s in it for us?
Married people live longer.”

“Not really. It just seems that way.”

LMAO! It only feeeeeeeeels like an eternity! rotfl

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:44 am 66. Lucy:

Who’s forcing these men to get married when they obviously hate women? Go pay a prostitute, or find some sad act like yourself who is lonely and wants a couple hours of pretending someone cares. Live your life like Peter Pan and become an old curmudgeon, recalling the good times at the cat house–how they really liked you–, stubbly beard, wrinkly faced, the sour smell rising off your skin, slack pants falling from your waist, with no one at your bedside to mourn you as you die. What a triumph of living! Hoo-rah.

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:09 pm 67. Delia:

Lucy,

Your rant was awesome [and I concur]!

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:40 pm 68. Delia:

P.S. I think there should only be \’male prostitutes\’. \”Men serving Men\” makes much more sense. Who needs a woman for \’that\’? Heck, men in prison certainly make \’use\’ of each other without female companionship. It\’s \’win-win\’.

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:52 pm 69. mariecurie:

I think that, deep-down, a lot of women just don’t like men. You should see the “interesting” e-mail spam that I receive from my secretaries, friends, etc. that makes fun of men.

Two years ago, I started taking lessons in Argentine Tango (Argentine Tango is a subtle dance, and not the hideous stuff that you see on “Dancing with the Stars”). In the tango, the man leads and has primarily control of the dance. The woman’s role is to respond and to add musicality to the dance. Even if you join a tango club or class with a husband or friend, you end up switching partners every cortina (every 3 songs). I’ve really learned to appreciate men and their role through the tango (not that I didn’t before–just more so). It is interesting to get to know the different guys and to figure out the style of each and to respond to that style. They like dancing with women who let them take the lead and who are gracious and accommodating, even if a dance doesn’t go well.

In any event, I recommend tango dancing for a new perspective on gender relations . . . I think the dance itself can be a metaphor for gender roles.

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:55 pm 70. Cathy:

Mr.Klavan~ I read the piece you wrote about your wife, it was beautiful!

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:10 pm 71. Charlybu:

I believe the problem that you inevitably run into with this type of argument is the attitude that is implied (for many, women especially) by the phrases: Woman’s work, Man of the house, king of the castle, etc… I agree with the premise, but feminism has distorted the meanings of these phrases to make them describe domineering and abusive men.

I grew up with an extremely abusive step-dad and is is very disconcerting that many of the comments here make my step-dad sound like he was just a “manly-man.” A strong, manly, even godly man, is not domineering or abusive. He is the ruler of his house, yes, but he doesn’t override his wife’s ideas glibly.

I believe in the biblical view of marriage. Recognize the biblical view is not the same as the traditional churches view. Look at the ways Abraham and Issac treated there wives in the bible, they obviously cherished them deeply. The bible says that men should love their wives as Christ loved the church, Christ died for the church so men should be willing to die for their wives. Only after that does it say that the wife should submit to her husband. This does not mean that she is a slave to his will, but she better darn well respect him if he would be willing to die for her. The bible also says that we are equal but the man is the head.

The bible does not mire itself in defining what is acceptable as women’s work or as men’s work, most of that is merely traditional and ultimately unimportant.

Sorry about the preaching, but I do believe the bible is correct on this issue. And by a lot of the comments I think many will agree.

Personally, I have had to train my husband to be more manly. He was raised by his mom after his dad left and the feminist agenda had a pretty strong hold on him. On me also, coming from an abuse situation and not wanting to be bullied.

We have a wonderful marriage and I do wake up singing every morning (don’t know if that counts, though, I am a singer). I try to encourage him, though I don’t nag. When something is really important to me we will debate it and many times we do it my way, otherwise he’s pretty free to make his own decisions. He does ask permission to do things and so do I, but it is out of respect for each other and the family and it goes both ways. We both cook, do laundry, clean house, etc… but I do the most in that realm because I’m home all day homeschooling our 2 boys.

I am proud to be beautiful for my husband and he respects me for it. It is also important because is gains him respect among his peers, which is no trifling matter as silly as it sounds. I have my own dreams and he is always supportive of them as I have been of his.

This is not to say we don’t have rough patches, but commitment to each other, more than anything else, has pulled us through each time.

And on an extremely personal note, our sex life is never dull. When you both deeply love and respect each other, watch out!

BTW two REALLY good books to read: Captivating and Wild at Heart by John and Stasi Eldredge.

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:38 pm 72. aclay1:

Delia – read the “The Female Brain” by Louann Brizendine, a doctor at UCSF. The reason women shouldn’t behave like men is that we have different brains. Much of the behavior that is supposedly liberting is actually results in in unhappiness because the female brain isn’t wired to reward this behavior. Men’s brains on the other hand…

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:41 pm 73. rbell:

The film was enjoyable and yes the men in it were less than adults. I also did not like that part of the movie but unfortunately it is true. We live in a matriarchal society. When Christianity fell apart in the 20’s due to liberalism, the foundation for marriage disappeared. Marriage is Biblical and essential to every society that is healthy, even in pagan cultures. And in marriage the leadership role is appointed to the male. The wife support the husband and both establish rule over the children.That is uncommon even in so called Christian Churches How many times have I walked into the library or some other public place and seen women sitting on the floor playing with their children. It is like “do we have any adults here?” When that leadership role is abandoned the men become more feminine and child like and the women become more dominant and less appealing. And when the milk is free “why buy the ***”.

I have been married twice. The first time I was the man child and guess what the marriage quickly ended. I got what I was looking for physically. But I was not emotionally mature enough and neither was she. Eighteen years later I finally married when I found a real Christian woman. Today we are celebrating our 14th wedding anniversary and I can honestly say she was the best thing that ever happened to me. I lead to wherever she wants to go.

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:44 pm 74. Delia:

71. aclay1,

“Men’s brains on the other hand…”

LOL! Thank you for the book suggestion. My mother was a classic example of a ‘Liberal woman’ who bed hopped and didn’t think she ‘needed’ a man for anything but ‘el joyo of el sexo’ and now she’s a very lonely woman with no partner.

I’m a home-body through and through and I appreciate that men are physically bigger and stronger and are the fighters and protectors. Women will fight and protect too though. Sometimes they just need bigger guns.

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:59 pm 75. Delia:

73. rbell,

Awesome story! That was really uplifting.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:03 pm 76. Delia:

71. Charlybu,

Beautiful post. I just got a chance to read it in its entirety. I agree with what you wrote. I think your relationship sounds dreamy!

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:07 pm 77. Self-hating Boomer:

The reason women shouldn’t behave like men is that we have different brains.

This scientific hypothesis is a real double-edged knife for the left. On the one hand, feminist doctrine holds that there are no physical differences. On the other hand, LGBT activists (and a certain amount of recent research) insist that the brains of gay men are physically similar to hetero women, and the brains of lesbians are similar to hetero men.

Both of those can’t be true.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:08 pm 78. Delia:

mariecurie,

I wish I could get my husband to dance with me. He hates dancing and I love to dance [and sing-ha-ha]. We used to write music together [even had some songs published once upon a time] but, with all of the things going on with our financial lives…there won’t be no dancin’ or golfin’ any time soon. *sigh*

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:09 pm 79. Zammo:

“Who’s forcing these men to get married when they obviously hate women? Go pay a prostitute, or find some sad act like yourself who is lonely and wants a couple hours of pretending someone cares. Live your life like Peter Pan and become an old curmudgeon, recalling the good times at the cat house–how they really liked you–, stubbly beard, wrinkly faced, the sour smell rising off your skin, slack pants falling from your waist, with no one at your bedside to mourn you as you die. What a triumph of living! Hoo-rah.”

Hey Lucy, research the concept of the “ad hominem”. It’s a crime against logic that you have just committed.

It also means that you lose the argument as well as the respect of logical and rational people.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:11 pm 80. Delia:

Self-hating Boomer,

Interesting! -But, being that gay people are a very tiny minority of men/women I don’t know if that speaks to the majority of men/women.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:13 pm 81. Delia:

Zammo:

Andrew himself [the author] wrote: “Hey, stay single, dude, you’ll have a lot more money, and then you can buy companionship.”

Now, what *do* ya think he meant by that? *wink*

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:16 pm 82. Delia:

“UPDATE: Lest anyone misinterpret this post to mean I bully, mistreat or otherwise disrespect my much beloved wife – behavior I would likewise consider low and unmanly – please read what I wrote about her on my old blog here. It was meant to be a Valentine’s Day op-ed but no newspaper editor would touch it.”

Gotchya, Andy. That was really sweet. Hubby and I got married on Valentine’s btw. Corny, I know. ha-ha

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:17 pm 83. Ani:

Wakes up singing? Yeah, ok. Here’s a hot flash for ya’ ace, we women are reeeeaaally good at making you guys feel good about yourselves, even when we think you are full of it — don’t want to burst your bubble or anything.

And to say you are making a sacrifice being married by not sleeping with a variety of partners, because it is your urge, just like it’s a woman’s nature to want to have children is just more nonsensical drivel — here’s another hot flash — lots of women are happily married with absolutely NO urge whatsoever to have children and we still work for a living just like you and still have to pick up your socks.

We have to give up sleeping with other partners too and since we keep the roof over our own heads cause we make our own money, I wonder what’s in it for us being married?

How about love, trust, shared goals, respect and companionship? And no, my hubby is not my poodle.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:14 pm 84. happy1ga:

I am 43. I married at 20 to an immature manchild. I managed to live 14 yrs with him, (don’t care for divorce), but he was always abusive, cheated and mistreating. I remarried at 35 to a man who was 20 yrs my senior who believed as I did in traditional roles. It has been fantastic. We have been together 8 yrs, he helped raise my two kids from age 11 and 13 to 19 and 21. That was NOT an easy job, yet we have never had a fight. It is just an easy, happy relationship. We live and work together, spend 24/7 together, and it works. I never wanted to be a feminist, my mother has been married almost 60 yrs and is still happy, my dad, too. Proof is in the puddin’.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:21 pm 85. This Isn’t Sexism. | Little Miss Attila:

[...] I’m not so sure I’d suggest that the man of the house should be an old-fashioned “king of the castle” (depending on [...]

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:39 pm 86. Christina:

Thank you for your wonderful post! I am a wife who completely agrees with everything you wrote. My husband and I have a traditional marriage where he works to provide for us, and I cook, clean, and go to graduate school. We are blissfully happy, despite everyone’s disapproval. Like your wife, I wake up every morning singing!

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:43 pm 87. RonCo:

I’ll have to re-read your piece for all of its points, but for now I’m just glad a modern (current) writer has mentioned Wodehouse. Ol’ PG knew how to picture men in-the-stew, wot?

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:55 pm 88. justin:

I grew up in a household where my father fought for full custody and won, and with good reason. Society is just biased against men, just look at divorce law. It’s far more acceptable for women to abuse and berate their men than the other way around. Can you imagine men throwing out “my needs weren’t being met” as justification for walking out on a marriage the way women do?

Heh, trying saying that on Oprah; “Yeah, well I just wasn’t satisfied the way I deserve to be.”

Anyway, the problem is we are all too damn selfish. Both sexes.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:56 pm 89. Delia:

88. justin:

“Anyway, the problem is we are all too damn selfish. Both sexes.”

Amen to that. I blame the Fairytales and Disney movies for that one. Prince Valium is not a happy ending. lol

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:12 pm 90. Zammo:

“Here’s a hot flash for ya’ ace, we women are reeeeaaally good at making you guys feel good about yourselves, even when we think you are full of it — don’t want to burst your bubble or anything.”

Hey, thanks for the respect!

Don’t worry, while you are fallaciously supporting our egos (oh, and we know when you’re doing it), we’re studiously avoiding contact with you. You know, “working” late at the office, going out with our friends, and generally enjoying life without you around.

What advice did the mom give her daughter on the eve of the daughter’s wedding?

“If your husband is happy, you’re both doing something wrong.”

Gentlemen, welcome to the American marriage!

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:21 pm 91. Delia:

Zammo, are you married? Do you want to get married? Marriage can be a PITA but it can be very rewarding too. Sometimes you have to take your lumps during the troubling times.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:31 pm 92. Zammo:

“Zammo, are you married?”

Argue the message, not the messenger.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:51 pm 93. scared:

So dumb.
Some women were meant to lead, and love to lead others, and share visions and wisdom, as well as help others succeed. And, make their own money.
They also like to love their husbands, and garner respect.
This is all personal assumptions and perspective.
So narrow focused.
Such a naive and immature lecture.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:46 pm 94. a newsreader:

Q: How do you know that you’ve gone to heaven?

“A: You find yourself living in an English house with a Chinese cook and a Japanese wife and spending American money.

Q: How do you know that you’ve gone to hell?

A: You find yourself living in a Japanese house with an English cook and an American wife and spending Chinese money.”

-A Chinese joke

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:14 pm 95. scared:

LOL, the irony here.
This has become one whiny, naggy man thread.
Grow up.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:16 pm 96. Kralizec:

It seems women had to be emancipated, to increase the supply of clerks. However, the perversion of women to paper-pushing was detrimental to their unique function as mothers, so that it has become necessary to rely on foreign mothers to produce men and women for export. Let old feminists ponder my word and their parchment uteri.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:19 pm 97. Delia:

Sometimes men need to ‘take it down a notch’ with the ‘macho’ crap.

After being almost strangled to death twice by my husband and after two broken ribs by being ’sat’ on by my husband, I think men need to ease up on us women who love them.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:36 pm 98. Zammo:

“This has become one whiny, naggy man thread.”

Another enemy of logic.

Please research the concept of the ad hominem.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:38 pm 99. Paul of Alexandria:

Monty (46):

I’ve come to think since that men and women get married for very different reasons. Men marry women for who they are; women seem to marry men for who they could be (given a dose of female insight).

The saying goes that after marriage women want men to change, and they don’t; men want women to stay the same but they don’t.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:51 pm 100. Paul of Alexandria:

Zammo (92):

“Zammo, are you married?”
Argue the message, not the messenger.

Some things you just can’t experience by proxy.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:54 pm 101. John:

Frankly, why would any woman want to be with some dominated chump? Conversely, why would any man want to be with some dominated wife? Either way would be boring. After awhile, why stay with someone of either gender who has failed to earn any respect and/or who fails to be interesting? It’s a two way street on that issue.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:01 pm 102. J.E. Dyer:

For “scared” — the essence of independence is not needing other people to affirm you at every turn.

Be happy for the Klavans. Women who are really meant for oher things know who they are, and aren’t unhappy being what they are.

I’ve always known that I’d be perfectly unperturbed about a husband who left hair in the tub — as long as he had bought me a big house in which I had my OWN tub, and as long as he paid for maid service so I didn’t have to clean his tub out.

A good sign of happiness in people is an absence of the need to call others down all the time. It really is OK that the Klavans are happy. An awful lot of people are.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:04 pm 103. Animator Girl:

A book I’d recommend to everyone here is “The Care and Feeding of Husbands,” by Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Whatever your opinion of the author, the book is absolutely fantastic: her thesis is that most unhappy women blame external factors – their men, society at large, etc – for that unhappiness, when in fact it is the denial of their own natures that causes such discontent. She argues that what makes women happiest is making their men happy, and what makes men happy is very simple: food, sex, and respect. A lot of letters from male readers back up this assertion.

The best quote that I can recall from the book is from a letter telling of a father’s words to his daughter just before her wedding: “You are marrying a man. Treat him like one, and he will always act like one.”

I once saw a therapist when I was frustrated with a relationship problem, and he ended up explaining to me that the study of female psychology is roughly 30 years behind that of men, because the early discoveries on which so much of psychological knowledge is based (Freud, etc) were based upon the studies and experiences of men. As such, male psychology was for a long time applied to women, and a lot of faulty philosophies rose out of that (I assume he referred to 60s-style Feminism, at least in intellectual circles). He suggested that my issue was that I was responding to the societal expectation that I address my problems like a man, when in fact my feminine nature dictated that I respond a different way. It was a revelation for me, and I have since learned to trust my intuition much better.

“Gender roles” do not have to dictate specific duties, they simply refer to the fact that men and women are different, and should play to their strengths in order to maintain the most functional relationship possible.

I adore my husband!

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:09 pm 104. Happy Husband:

I’m happy to read that Mr. and Mrs. Klavan have found happiness by adopting the traditional roles of husband and wife. I think a lot of their success comes from the fact that each treats the other with respect and that they obviously value their partner in life.

I think, however, that the traditional roles – while well suited for many, if not most people – are not well-suited for everyone. When my wife and I first married, we tried the traditional roles, and neither of us was happy. I have a very laid-back personality, and am often content to drift along through life. I was not good at the leadership role, and my wife was not happy with the lack of direction we had.

Since then, we have allowed our relationship to evolve, and today it is quite different. I am still the breadwinner, and my wife stays at home with the children… but my wife has adopted a leadership role in the marriage. She sets goals for us. She determines what needs to be done, and I use my ingenuity and talents to achieve those goals.

This works very well for us. She is no longer frustrated, no longer feels like I ignore her. I am focused. Instead of drifting along, I bring all my skills to bear on achieving the aims she has set for me.

As an example, my last job was a comfortable sinecure… not too hard, and I was well-respected among my peers, but there was no real room to move up. I’d have been content to stay there, but my wife wanted me to take a new job – one that was a real step up in responsibility, longer hours, and something that I wasn’t quite sure I could handle. I took that job… and I have found it to be challenging, exciting and much more rewarding.

I don’t spend money without consulting my wife. I don’t do whatever I feel like doing without her approval. But I am far from a poodle, and she is far from grim. She is very sweet, very loving – much more so than before – and I am very happy with the way things have become.

That’s us… and I don’t expect most couples would find the kind of satisfaction we do with this kind of arrangement… but we’re happy and we’re prospering to an extent I’d never have believed.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:18 pm 105. JohnFNWayne:

Funny, but “The Hangover” expressed much of this with the Stu character and his shrewish fiancee-to-be. The movie’s answer? Better to be with a stripper/escort than in a badgering Jon-and-Kate-like relationship from hell with a professional bitch.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:37 pm 106. whiskey:

The problem with all the Beta Male types, is that women are hypergamous. They desire men who are higher in status than they are. With women having in the last forty years, ever increasing equality to now, superiority in the workplace, in society, in culture, in status, this has led women to find most men … undesireable.

Men act like over-aged frat boys, because women treat them, excepting a few “Hot” Alpha men, as disposable. Which mostly they are. Men only act responsibly when they get something for it. Respect and love. Most women give men neither. In fact they cannot, since most men are at best their equals in earning and status.

A Rock Star like Bill Clinton, or Obama, or Steven Tyler of Aerosmith, can do pretty much anything and everything and women will love them. Because they are in fact the highest status men around. For the 99.999% of men who are not of that class — they are up the creek. Why?

Because women want what they want. Men of higher status. Increasingly, America’s White population will follow the Black Population. We will see overaged frat boys replaced by thugging it up guys competing on intimidation and violence, and more and more women defaulting into single motherhood.

You can’t change human nature. Women want men more powerful than themselves. This leaves most men out in the cold.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:44 pm 107. Delia:

104. Happy Husband:

What a happy story you shared.

You and your wife are freakin’ awesome.

I heart you er ♥ U.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:58 pm 108. Delia:

106. whiskey,

People who are selfish jerks are selfish jerks regardless of male/female. Some people are just a-holes. Whatttttttttttyado?

Lorena Bobbit lopped off her man’s peen for cheating on her. O.J. Simpson murdered his ex-wife because he still harbored ‘jealousy’ issues [imho].

Men can be men/manly without being full-on knuckle draggers.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:05 pm 109. Delia:

P.S. My husband is snoring right now and I want to throw my laptop at him.

I keed. I keed. Naw. I’d just like to throw a pillow at him but his Italian temper would make me sorry for it. Then, my Finnish/English/Irish/Dutch temper would go ballistic and it would NOT be pretty.

There are times when I’m soooooooooo tempted though. he-he.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:10 pm 110. Delia:

Another P.S.:

Is it wrong that I have a teensy, weensy, itty bitty crush on Andrew?

Ohhhhhhh behaveeeeeeeeee, Delia! *thwacks self with an expired can of stupid*

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:14 pm 111. Mary Louise:

This was wonderful to read, Andrew.

As a single woman, who is happy and once in a while lonely too, I love the traditional roles and I love strong men. So many men seem really underdeveloped to me.

And now from men to boys; I took a course at University a couple of years ago. I’d been out of school for a couple of decades. I love young people. When you don’t marry or have children you don’t make a certain maturation leap. It doesn’t have to be a disadvantage or a fault. It just is. When you don’t have to think about anyone but yourself, you usually don’t. Now that I have my parents to worry about that’s changed and I’ve adapted marvelously.

Had some of my classmates over for espresso following class. Sat there almost slack-jawed while observing, maybe even studying, their androgeny. I really prefer stark difference. The androgeny thing began long ago, though. So I won’t pin it on those youngins.

And I don’t doubt that your wife wakes up singing. Complement is freedom.

From Sandor Marai’s Embers:

The male virtues: silence, solitude, the invoilability of one’s word and women.

Jun 25, 2009 - 2:29 am 112. don L:

There is a world of difference between being a submissive wimp and a arrogant combination of xy chromosones. You’re know what’s wrong and then you propose worse – “getting laid” etc.

Frankly, I think that your immoral brand of manhood is what caused radical feminism to succeed in the first place.

Try being moral and good, sacrificing and receiving sacrifice (it’s called love -read St. paul)instead of these adolescent schoolboy image of manhood. With your thinking, I would have to ask: “Why would any sane woman want to get married?”

My wife and I have just had our fiftieth anniversary -still hold hands -share things unequally and don’t mind – but never would dream of abusing each other just to further our self -image.

Jun 25, 2009 - 2:46 am 113. kiwikit:

I as a female, could NOT agree more. I truly enjoy doing wifely things: cook, laundry, etc for my husband and I knew, decades ago, that any marriage I had would be a patriarchy. What can bring more misery than a 50/50 marriage with all the
resulting acrimony? I expect respect and consultation before decisions are made but when push comes to shove, my husband has the last word. And as Andrew said, I knew it, we discussed it, before finalizing our relationship. My marriage is much like that of my parents; that allows me to have learned how to behave from them. Both my husband and I had former, less successful marriages based more on physical attraction than rational intellect. . . I’m much happier in a marriage based on
mutual respect and appreciation of my husband’s assets and flaws.

Jun 25, 2009 - 3:32 am 114. ddc:

“The guys are all children whose manhood consists exclusively in hell-raising.”

Well?

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:13 am 115. Matt:

I have the supreme luxury of being 42 and single. I can, and will, do whatever I want, whenever I want to. I also have the extreme discomfort of watching my married friends becoming shells of their former selves.

Example John Doe #1: “She doesn’t appreciate what I do for my family on top of the crushing 60 hr work week I’m in”. Hey dumbass, she never will. No matter how much you do, she’s convinced that it will never be enough

Example Jane Doe #2: “We’re just going through the motions. He doesn’t find me attractive anymore” Well guess what sweetie. You still have the 50 lbs of baby fat. And your child is now 10 years old

Men: Good Lord, learn how to say NO !

Women: Learn self-control before you want to control your husband

And for crying out loud, the both of you need to SHUT UP !

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:17 am 116. mariecurie:

Larry C (#49): Are you sure your wife isn’t depressed? Your description of her resembles a description I would have given of my own mother who had depression and borderline personality disorder.

So many people idealize the “stay-at-home” wife and mother. But it is a very hard task to care for the children and the house all day. It is grueling, isolating, and it doesn’t give some women the time or opportunity to explore some aspects of their creativity that they need to be vibrant, whole persons. I have known many stay-at-home wives and mothers who struggle with depression. (Now, don’t you all get your knickers in a twist and tell me I’m generalizing and that the stay-at-home moms you know are just fine an loving it. I’m talking about MY experience and I’m not saying ALL women. I’m merely pointing out some of the complications).

The author (especially in his blog) idealizes his own situation in which he supports the family financially and his wife takes care of the home. I would argue that you don’t have to have this model in order to have marital happiness. And being a “working” woman today doesn’t necessarily mean spending long hours in an office and leaving your kids in daycare for forty hours a week. Many people telecommute, make “job sharing” arrangements, have family members (grandparents) assist with childcare, etc.

I just don’t like discussions or arguments focused around an “either” – “or” premise. There are so many ways of doing things these days. The key is mutual respect and realizing that your spouse is his/her own person first in the eyes of God before they are your spouse. They have a potential to fulfill too, and haven’t just been put on the planet to serve your every need.

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:38 am 117. D Griffith:

There is another word for that good ole-fashioned “king of the castle-type”, which, to the best of my knowledge, has been floating around the English language for some time now: douche bag.

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:54 am 118. Xanthippas:

“But when you’re done, answer me this: why would a man get married under any other circumstances? I’m serious. What’s in it for him? I mean, marriage is a large sacrifice for a man. He gives up his right to sleep with a variety of partners, which is as basic an urge in men as having children is in women. He takes on responsibilities which will probably curtail both his work and his social life. If he doesn’t also acquire authority, gravitas, respect and, yes, mastery over his own home, what does he get? Companionship?”

Wow. Yes, what does a man get out of marriage if he can’t go hunting when he wants and tell his wife to fuck herself? Honestly, why did I never think of that myself?

What a moron.

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:05 am 119. bill Wolfe:

you are a complete a-hole – no further comment

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:21 am 120. Oh snap! « tangents and digressions:

[...] Glenn Greenwald lays the hammer down: Today, this super-tough guy has a column at Pajamas Media explaining — in the context of a new film he saw that joyously depicts men as men and ladies [...]

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:26 am 121. patco13:

When I read columns like this I know we have far to go as a civilization. Responsibility for your actions is the key to maturity and leadership. If you father children, you damn well better take responsibility for that. It’s this kind of pseudo macho Hollywood crap makes for a high read count for your column. It bears no resmblance to reality. Real man my ass.

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:40 am 122. ChipD:

Arrgh arrgghh ARRGHHH!!!
Manly Men, in the pride of their Manhood!!

Greenwald’s point was priceless- while the wimmenfolk in the Armed Forces go off and fight against the scary terrorists, Andrew Klavan is back on the homefront, waving the pom poms and cheerleading for the warriors…

Heh

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:43 am 123. Instapundit » Blog Archive » ANDREW KLAVAN: American Nursery. I blame testosterone-antagonists in the water supply, or somethin…:

[...] KLAVAN: American Nursery. I blame testosterone-antagonists in the water supply, or something. . . [...]

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:52 am 124. TexasTriple:

UnBELIEVABLE! A guy who’s job is writing for a website called “Pajamas Media” talking about being a MAN. Get a manly job and do manly stuff and then you won’t feel the need to pretend how MANLY you are on a website called “Pajamas Media.” You are a wimpy blogger sitting in your air-conditioned den wearing the silk pajamas your wife bought you. TOUGH GUY!

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:07 am 125. merchant46:

Andrew, Andrew, Andrew…You’ve been reading Roissy in DC again, haven’t you? “Shrike” – I know. Why not just have him write this column for you, or at least credit him?

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:13 am 126. john from cinncinatti:

i’ve been to a few parties like that yeah it was funny.
the overachiever wife who wants to be treated like a queen/goddess and who treats her man like the court jester gets offended when she is introduced as mrs. court jester. hunting,and football season especially during the superbowl, ladies don’t get in front of the tv and start vacuuming, leave us alone we aren’t paying attention to you.

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:15 am 127. RKW:

I just want to say that A.O. Scott, the NY Times movie critic to whom Klavan refers, is the [awesome]. So [tickle] you for hating on him.

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:19 am 128. Becky:

I’m glad you found a partner who loves you for you. While it may be true in the movies that “the women are either fun-loving party girls or grim, death-of-pleasure wife/mommies”, in reality most people fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

The idea that there are only two types to choose from is pure Hollywood. Maybe directors should always have the women wear either white dresses or black dresses and the men can wear either beanie caps or black hats. That would certainly save screen writers the time and bother of having to do any realistic character development.

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:54 am 129. know1uknow:

Uggg. You made me throw up in my mouth.

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:57 am 130. Rex:

Okay, I wasn’t going to comment, but I’ve seen more than a few references that I don’t get: just who are “Jon & Kate”?

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:04 am 131. buddy larsen:

‘Search’ [ estrogen water supply ] and other combos such as ‘rivers’ and everything will fall into place. I blame General Mills and Putin. Oh, and Soros. Down with aggressive malehood!

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:08 am 132. Octogalore:

Andrew: I’m glad you’re happy. I hope you’re correct that your wife is as well.

As a woman, I know how easy it is to put that smile on. As a former stripper, I know how easy it is to make men think you’re in the room when it’s only your bank account that’s in the room, your heart and hormones are elsewhere. But hopefully, you are able to speak for your wife accurately here.

However, please don’t speak for me, or for anyone you don’t know. Some of us do quite well in “fair” marriages. For my husband to feel like a King, and he does (men have a bit harder time faking it, you see), he likes a woman who he knows isn’t just there for the security. Who is his professional as well as intellectual equal.

My husband and I both work and parent. I happen to be the rainmaker by a fairly substantial portion. He’s an entertainment executive who does quite well, also. His ego and his virility are strong enough not to be dented by a woman with some wallet to throw around. And strangely, dudes whose ego aren’t quite as healthy as my husband’s, with wives safely tucked away at home, proposition me (unsuccessfully) all the time. Interesting that they want their wife to be one way, but find some challenge in a woman who is pulling her own weight in the grownup world.

You state: “[guys] don’t care about a clean house or a well-reared child anywhere near as much as their wives do.” Well, my husband does care about a well-reared child, and I feel sorry for the children of men who don’t.

I believe strongly in the right of both men and women to either choose or reverse traditional roles, whatever makes them happy. As a believer in small government, I don’t like Big Brother to come from DC or from a columnist dictating that the format of his marriage is the only way not to be miserable.

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:32 am 133. Andy:

Complementarianism > egalitarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementarian

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:51 am 134. child:

Andy wrote perhaps the most idiotic statement I’ve ever heard: “They [men] don’t care about a clean house or a well-reared child anywhere near as much as their wives do”

Evidently, in Andrew’s fantasy world, real men are slobs who don’t love children. Real men shouldn’t have to clean up their messes. Why does Andy’s version of men sound like an adolescent who doesn’t want to grow up and learn to share responsibilities as well as benefits? If his article is any indication, it’s because he’s the one who needs to learn responsibility and how to get along with others. If his point of view has currency, are we surprised when children grow up without respect for others, when messes are left for others to deal with?

Andy’s version of a man is actually the type we’d find in Lord of the Flies; hardly intelligent or sensitive to concerns beyond his own shallow and self-centered interests. Is this typical of “conservative” thought? Anybody?

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:52 am 135. sam:

To quote some rock star:

Don’t get married. Just find a woman you hate, and buy her a house.

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:58 am 136. ken in sc:

I am a stay at home husband. Our children are all grown, so I don’t have to do childcare. I volunteer at the local library and museum. After two unsuccessful marriages, I decided to find a wife who had as much or more income potential as I did. I have been happily married now for 24 years. I am retired because my position was eliminated and I was eligible for early retirement, so I did. I looked for another position, but when I found one, my wife did not want me to take it. She liked my being able to take care of errands and chores and go with her when she had to go out of town. Men, who buy into the idea that the man is supposed to be the major income producer, are suckers. On the other hand, my wife actively seeks my input and ideas for her career. She expects me to be the major decision maker in our family. Her idea, not mine. I see it as my job to figure out what she wants to do and tell her to do it. I am happier now than I have ever been, I hope she is too.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:24 am 137. hM:

In the interest of being upfront: I’ve never been married and have only ever had one boyfriend (who turned out to be a complete a-hole – no, it’s not because he wouldn’t do what I wanted, it’s because he insulted me and treated me like I was stupid). My lack of actual experience in relationships is mitigated at least a little bit by the fact that I have seen a lot of relationships – particularly in relation to the cause and effect of divorce.

I think a lot of the problems we are seeing are related to how people are raised, specifically how they are raised by the opposite-sex parent. A mother who raises her son like he’s God’s gift to humanity has not done any favors to his future spouse. Likewise, a man who raises his daughter to believe she is a princess and should always be treated as such is throwing his own gender under the bus when it comes to his little girl. Both of these almost guarantee that the boy will grow up thinking women should be domineering and the girl will grow up thinking that men are there to give her what she wants when she wants it.

I’m grateful to my dad that, while he treated me with the respect with which he treats all women, he also didn’t just give me whatever I wanted. I credit that with my being able to look at women and be just as absolutely disgusted with the way many of them treat their men as I am with the way that some men treat their women.

Nowadays, each side seems to be hell-bent on finding certain attributes that come with some pretty unattractive baggage. Then they complain endlessly about it later; women complain about their men not wanting to listen to them, men complain about their women being too high-maintenance.

I can honestly say that at this point in my life I have way too much baggage to even think about getting married. Which is why I don’t date or put myself out there as “available”. I refuse to play stupid female games with men and I also refuse to drag somebody else into my problems just to have somebody there; that’s just selfish. I am also very selfish with my time and my money, and I know neither one of those particular characteristics ever make for a good partner.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:29 am 138. Hot Lunch:

They are simply eviscerating Klavan’s masculine insecurities over at Greenwald’s blog. I haven’t laughed so hard since I found out McCarthy was a cross-dresser.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:42 am 139. Don Gwinn:

The real hell is after you’re sold this bill of goods, marry a woman, think you’re doing everything right because you’re doing everything you can to make her happy . . . and find that you’re both miserable. She doesn’t respect you (how can she?) and everything you do to fix it only makes it worse because you’re trying to placate her and show her how sensitive you are to her needs and how you’re not like all the other men out there (boo!)

Once she’s making all the decisions because you can’t or won’t bring yourself to step up, she has no further use for you or reason to respect you. From that point on, neither of you will enjoy that marriage unless something changes.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:49 am 140. Valkyrie607:

I’m puzzled.

If real men really don’t like children all that much, then why do children need dads?

If being married is such a sacrifice, especially of sexual opportunity, then why do real men put up with it? Why not just get married AND insist on screwing around? The door is, as you say, right there.

Weird.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:50 am 141. Hot Lunch:

“If being married is such a sacrifice, especially of sexual opportunity, then why do real men put up with it? Why not just get married AND insist on screwing around? The door is, as you say, right there.”

Indeed Valkyrie. Your question is easily answered by looking at a photo of Klavan.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SkN90fbPuxI/AAAAAAAAB84/Wvxkqcedd4o/s1600-h/klavan.png

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:02 am 142. Steve:

Looks like some moonbat site linked to this piece.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:16 am 143. Steve:

“They are simply eviscerating Klavan’s masculine insecurities over at Greenwald’s blog. ”

Yes, when I want some expert inight into masculinity I tune it to what fairies have to say.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:19 am 144. Hot Lunch:

Steve. Ha. Ha. You sound like a fairy. Wow, this being a real man thing is surprisingly easy.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:23 am 145. D:

The thing is, there is a difference between what someone wants to do for you and what you can FORCE them to do. That is a difference between a Good combo and people who end up hating each other’s guts. The key issue is expectation. IF the wife assumes that the husband will fold the towels precisely as she does, and is willing to berate him for not doing it precisely that way, there will be trouble.

Likewise, if neither one of them can get out of the house to do things on their own, it will be bad. This is especially important if she stays at home. She can feel trapped there with the kids, and that will make it less likely she lets her husband do anything else, either. It’s a good thing for both to get out.

In terms of emasculated to get married… Men are trying to make nice, in many cases. She has expectations about how all this will go down, and for the most part, he goes along, because he really isn’t interested. That is, he wants a clean house, but in a totally DIFFERENT way than she does. I know most guys don’t clean unless it needs it, I know some women who clean regardless if it needs it, on schedule. That is a very different point of view. The question becoems who is willing to shout the most to get their way. The person who cares, or the person that doesn’t?

This is where it starts… with different expectation, PLUS the assumption that only your expectation is the CORRECT one.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:23 am 146. Hot Lunch:

“Looks like some moonbat site linked to this piece.”

Lucky for you people. Without this kind of attention, this lonely site would have been ass up months ago.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:24 am 147. Strawman:

They are simply eviscerating Klavan’s masculine insecurities over at Greenwald’s blog.

Glen the sock puppet? That paragon of masculine togetherness?

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:26 am 148. Strawman:

Oops. Sorry, Glen. I didn’t mean to snark you in the face. I forgot your M.O.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:28 am 149. “Cultural Commentary” from Andrew Klavan | my five year plan.:

[...] his most recent article, Klavan gives us insights gleaned from The Hangover, a movie I haven’t and won’t bother [...]

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:30 am 150. WhatsWithRelationship:

Marriage is a ‘compromise’.
Both parties have to lose a little in a compromise. When perceived loss is of equal value you have a successful marriage otherwise not.
It is so simple.

What do I know!! I have only been married for 5 years with a lovely daughter.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:32 am 151. Hot Lunch:

As if that guy needed sock puppets. His daily comment section exceeds the entire number of comments of this whole freakin space you losers.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:37 am 152. dave™©:

“I’m the old-fashioned King of the Castle type…” Translation from brownshirtese: I’m a fucking coward that can only get it up abusing someone weaker than me, and they’re hard to find.

BTW, “tough guy,” I wouldn’t even be here if a faggot hadn’t sent me. How does it feel to be dependent on a “girly man” for hits?

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:40 am 153. Blingamo:

This article is quite anti-woman for a movie review. Hard to believe that such brainless comedy would ilicit such a heavy response. Some women (like the example of the author’s wife) like to be subservient their husband. Just like some men like to be subservient to their wife. People should be aware of who they are marrying before they regret the decision they’ve made. And in this day and age, I see no reason why women need to marry. Why would a woman need to marry when in most cases she’s more educated than her male counterpart, is not limited by vocation, and can have babies without a man? If anything, i’d say it’s the men that need female companionship in the form of marriage than it is women who need male companionship. After all, who is asking for marriage in most cases? Not the women.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:42 am 154. ExBrit:

You know what, Andrew? You’re right. I married a man who, like you, knows the difference between a man’s role, and a woman’s role. He earns a great living, but I almost dropped dead from exhaustion, so I divorced him 5 years ago after 37 years of marriage. I couldn’t be happier. He, on the other hand, asks me to remarry him at least twice a year. No thanks. Been there. Done that.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:48 am 155. Steve:

“His daily comment section exceeds the entire number of comments of this whole freakin space you losers.”

Then by lefty logic whatever he has to say is correct, QED.

“You sound like a fairy.”

But Glen is one, and therefore is an odd source to cite on the topic of marriage between men and those other people, women.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:59 am 156. Valkyrie607:

Is Glenn a fairy? I thought he was a bit more low-key than that. Your garden-variety fag, what.

Anyway, who’s to say that people who don’t fit into rigid gender roles aren’t supremely qualified on the absurdity of other peoples’ over-reliance on them?

Jun 25, 2009 - 11:15 am 157. MSK:

What is right for your marriage isn’t necessarily right for everyone. Some men do actually want to take part in the way their children are raised and like to clean up after themselves because they realize that their girlfriends or wives aren’t slaves. Some women don’t want to be committed and want to have as many sexual partners as they can. (Of course, she’s a slut if she “sleep[s] with a variety of partners” whereas a man is a stud, right?)

If you didn’t know already, you are a sexist. You assume that all women and men are equipped for only simple functions. Fortunately, we’ve evolved a little since the dawn of time (well, most of us).

It is very sad that you believe we shouldn’t tap into the potential that all of us have no matter what sex we are. Instead, you think we should stay inside gender roles that someone else decided for us.

No matter what you believe and no matter how wrong you are, you might consider avoiding judging other people’s relationships and dictating how other couples interact with one another. This is 2009, and we are living in a free country. And if some men don’t like being “little menchildren [who are led] by the ears” perhaps they should learn “where the door is if [they get] sick of it.”

Jun 25, 2009 - 11:26 am 158. Hot Lunch:

Steve. Too stupid to know when he’s insulting himself. Keep it up, you’re hilarious.

Jun 25, 2009 - 11:27 am 159. meg:

“We live in a matriarchal society. ”

HAH. Oh my, that *reeks* of bull.

Jun 25, 2009 - 11:50 am 160. Kurmudge:

Hmm. A lot of the later commenters seem to be lefties who have linked over from Greenwald, etc., and do not have a clue who Andrew is or what his life is. So they dispense the usual Greenwaldy tripe, hit and run.

The relationship between Andrew and Ellen Klavan is none of your business, guys. The fact is, every couple creates a unique relationship that works- or doesn’t- for themselves. Why? Because all people are different. So you will find many anecdotal exceptions all over (including here in the comments), but they are self-selected, and reside in the tails of the normal distribution, not the “ordinary” middle (67% of the group). Ellen’s father was a famous far-left professor at Berkeley; she decided that she would rather have real love than what her mother lived with. And Andrew was ready to offer that the instant he laid eyes on her and his knees turned to water.

This discussion is a large reason why marriage is so screwed up these days- because modern gender feminism has convinced women as a group that they are different from what they are by nature. They are supposed to want to be career people who work in construction or the law, not desire to have a baby after getting a PhD in engineering.

There are a lot of people out there who have emotional problems because their natures want one thing while their socialization demands something else.

Interesting, Laura Schlessinger’s book is a pretty accurate recipe for making a husband happy (”if he’s not horny, stuff food in his mouth”), but is by no means the last word. Smart guys recognize that, as long as the “horny” part is being satisfied (which process is contrary to woman’s nature, especially in the post-feminist era where you are never supposed to do anything unless you yoursef “feel like it”) they are ahead of the game to return the gift by treating their wives like the most prized elements of the guys’ lives.

And for those like Andrew who recognize that Christianity figured this out a long time ago, you know that St. Paul said that exact thing to the Corinthians and Ephesians back in about 50 AD- married people should wear each other out with lots of affection and sex so that when they leave the house they have no eye left for anyone else- and live that way for life, even if you don’t always think the balance is quite even. Then treat each other like you would treat yourself.

That sort of selflessness, of course, doesn’t quite fit the modern “me first” culture of self-actualization made sacred today by NOW.

Jun 25, 2009 - 11:52 am 161. Michael:

Why do women choose the men they choose?

No, I don’t have the complete answer. I do, however, have some research that may shed some light on the question. I found two sources of illumination.

From a discussion of sex and serial killers, I find that Abraham Maslow (of “hierarchy of needs” fame) did some serious research on the role of sex in society. He started studying monkeys in the Bronx Zoo because they copulated constantly – something monkeys were not known to do in the wild. Captivity sets off this behavior, some of which was unnatural: males mount males, and females mount males, he reported. Maslow concluded that this was “dominance behavior.” He followed up these observations with formal studies of humans.

He found that females are more honest than males. Men, Maslow found, tend to stroke their own egos and where therefore seen as less reliable. He found three groups of persons distinguished by their level of sexual dominance: low, medium, and high.

Low dominance women didn’t indulge in sex for fun. They saw it as for procreation only; some of them consider it “dirty.” The male sex organ is called ugly.

Medium dominance women are the ones we meet most often. They choose one man at a time, and they require romance, flowers, soft music, good wine, etc. “Medium” women seek a sane, stable, good provider.

High dominance women are experimenters with a high drive. They demand the drama and to be forced. The male sex organ is beautiful.

Women pick men who are in the same dominance group, but who are slightly more dominant. Until they find that man, they’re demanding and probably unfaithful. High dominance women – the ones we know, want to know, and to love – will seek out a man who they deem dominant, but that dominance may not be loving or even benign.

Maslow’s studies were published in 1939 and 1942. Yes, this is old, but it’s familiar and probably still pretty much the way things work now.

My second source is the book “Shadow Syndromes,” by Ratey and Johnson, was published in 1998. (I recommend it to anyone who is employed, married, or has a sibling who isn’t getting the help they so obviously need.) It’s about persons who have just enough of some familiar pathologies to have their behavior made odd, but not enough of the pathology to be easily recognized or diagnosed as being “ill.” The relevant part of that book is the chapter on ADD.

ADD women have so much going on in their heads that they can’t pay attention to all the social cues. They need stimulation constantly, so they sabotage even good relationships in order to get that stimulation. Yes, I’m saying many of the complaining women are to some extent ADD.

The confluence of these two collections of data is revealed in men’s behavior that results in so many complaints from women. To be dominant or stimulating, the man must be forceful and pushy. It’s easy for men to learn to do this because they spend their childhoods doing that to other guys. Transferring it to women doesn’t always work in the ways that women prefer. But women stick with the guys who are stimulating, even if the women are harmed. To be with a man who doesn’t keep the woman excited is a worse situation that being with a man who is dangerous, apparently.

Your mileage may vary. I stumbled onto this information last night, and it seemed useful in the discussions appearing in this venue. I offer no guarantee of accuracy or relevance in any particular life or relationship.

Jun 25, 2009 - 11:54 am 162. Bob Dobolina:

It’s been my experience that the kind of guy who finds it necessary to talk about how masculine he is all the time is the kind of guy who’s worried because he finds himself attracted to the other boys in the locker room.

You really should grow up, Mr. Klavan. You sound like a preening 12-year-old.

Jun 25, 2009 - 1:21 pm 163. Blarty Blarckleblart:

When did you stop beating your wife, Mr. Glavin?

Jun 25, 2009 - 1:26 pm 164. ziply:

Bwaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jun 25, 2009 - 2:30 pm 165. jsilverheels:

You sound awful.

Jun 25, 2009 - 3:41 pm 166. Paul of Alexandria:

It’s fascinating to compare the comments here and in the previous post on Same-sex “marriage”

Jun 25, 2009 - 3:47 pm 167. Paul of Alexandria:

Kurmudge (160)
very well said.

Jun 25, 2009 - 3:50 pm 168. Octogalore:

Kurmudge:

I, as a new commenter but not a new reader, and someone who took issue above with what AK wrote, am not what you probably mean by “lefty.” I’m a fiscally conservative, small government type who is pro choice and pro gay marriage. I voted by McCain, and I’m increasingly confident that was the right call.

It’s lazy reasoning to suggest that the only problem with Klavan’s piece is an argument from the left, coming from a Greenwald link. I don’t read Greenwald, and my issues are from the right. Klavan, in generalizing about what’s good for men and women based on his own situation, and about men’s priorities based on his, is going against the free market, individual pursuit of happiness principles on which the free market rests. As an entrepreneur, and a believer in the individual (including the kind with estrogen) ability to optimize happiness along chosen quantitative and qualitative axes, I’m concerned that Klavan, in arguing that it’s OK to keep a class of people dependent because it’s much better for them that way, is betraying the principles this site supposedly holds dear.

Jun 25, 2009 - 4:10 pm 169. Cathy:

#160~ Well put.

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:35 pm 170. Delia:

Why is everyone picking on a “mean old man”?

Jun 25, 2009 - 6:17 pm 171. Xanthippas:

“Interesting, Laura Schlessinger’s book is a pretty accurate recipe for making a husband happy (”if he’s not horny, stuff food in his mouth”), but is by no means the last word. Smart guys recognize that, as long as the “horny” part is being satisfied (which process is contrary to woman’s nature, especially in the post-feminist era where you are never supposed to do anything unless you yoursef “feel like it”) they are ahead of the game to return the gift by treating their wives like the most prized elements of the guys’ lives.”

Which pretty much works only on cavemen. Us more modern fellas like a woman we can also manage a conversation with about something other than what they ought to be cooking us for dinner.

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:00 pm 172. Strawman:

There’s a reason why Greenmold’s comment section is so long – he writes most of his comments himself. He’s been busted by better internet minds with multiple commenters with the same IP address as his.

“Sock puppet” actually means something.

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:50 pm 173. happy1ga:

Glen Greenwold, he of the many, many multiple personalities? Heh. I didn’t know he was now allowed out of a cage. He used to be some more freaky weird back in the day. I haven’t seen anything he has written in at least 2 yrs. Of course, it could have been written by one of his sockpuppets, and how would I know?

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:27 pm 174. buddy larsen:

depressing angry left, depressing boring witless angry left. what a buncha maroonz. jeez.

Jun 25, 2009 - 8:34 pm 175. Robohobo:

Damn lefty trolls were out on this thread, weren’t they? The kinds who think Borat and Bruno are funny rather than flat out disgusting. They are broken morally decrepit with no center to ground their lives.

Oh, and BTW, nice article Klavan.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:27 pm 176. Cowpunk:

Suppose a weapon was created that both paralyzed its victim and created extreme pain in its victim for several agonizing and terrifying seconds.

Suppose this weapon left only minor physical damage in the vast majority of its victims.

Suppose some subjects died as a result of this weapon being fired at them.

Suppose the maker of this weapon downplayed its ability to cause extreme pain, terror, and death, and marketed it to police departments, prisons, the military, and other institutions as a harmless alternative to traditional “pain compliance” techniques.

Suppose police officers all across the country began to use this device to torture citizens into compliance with their demands.

Suppose officers used this extremely painful weapon against children, old ladies, weaponless subjects who posed little or no threat, and even previously restrained subjects.

Suppose someone made a comedy movie where you were expected to laugh as the main characters were tortured using this device by a sadistic laughing police officer, as part of a show for little children.

Would you think that’s funny? Would you laugh?

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:32 pm 177. Marc Malone:

#168 Octogalore – You are not a Righty. From your stated positions, you are actually a Libertarian, and so, a centrist. Libertarians are governmentally conservative and social liberals. You fit that description. Just FYI.

I hate that the thread got spammed by the Lefties. It is a fine article and very un-PC.

Jun 26, 2009 - 10:57 am 178. clare spark:

This is a pathetic thread that makes me want to write a book about it. I have seen here much misogyny and a willingness to generalize from one’s own personal experience, without reflection and without study.
Here is only one example: what is meant by domination and subordination in the context of relations between husbands and wives? Women ofen experience themselves as powerless and exploited, while simultaneously unaware of the sexual or maternal power they hold over men (at least before they turn into witches as they age).
Are there unreasonable and stupid feminists? No kidding.
The condition of women is horrible, and I am very disappointed, no, disgusted with the Pajamas readership at least as it has emerged here.

Jun 26, 2009 - 3:48 pm 179. Octogalore:

Marc — appreciate the econ tutorial but it’s unnecessary. I’m not claiming to be a Righty but instead that there’s a critique from the right as well as from the left of the OP that some so-called Righty commenters appear to be missing. Which is that he is willing to go against the theory of individual entrepreneurship and free market when it’s in his interest to group a whole class of people — women — as happier being economically dependent.

I have no problem with Klavan’s chosen marriage paradigm as long as it’s mutually agreeable. I do have a problem with him making a global statement that those who don’t subscribe to it are necessarily “miserable.” This is an attempt at regulating a group of people based on a Big Brother decision as to what works, which is the kind of economic plan preferred by the Left. And as you know, I am not of the left from an economic perspective and based on the OP, I’m certainly to the right of Klavan regarding how much interference I’d tolerate in a free market.

Jun 26, 2009 - 5:53 pm 180. bogie wheel:

The condition of women is horrible

If you are not writing from Iran, you might want to avoid the hyperbole.

Jun 26, 2009 - 7:54 pm 181. Timezoned:

Kurmudge wrote:

“Hmm. A lot of the later commenters seem to be lefties who have linked over from Greenwald, etc., and do not have a clue who Andrew is or what his life is. So they dispense the usual Greenwaldy tripe, hit and run.

The relationship between Andrew and Ellen Klavan is none of your business, guys.”

Yes, the article was a movie review, for pete’s sake, there was nothing about him and his wife in it, why did you “lefties” have to drag her into it?

This comment was the winner in terms of sheer comedy. The amount of self-contradiction in just those first few lines is staggering. The idea seems to be that learning at least something about Klavan before commenting would be the least you can do….. but it’s none of your business!

The author writes a bragging, chest-thumping article about how getting all his needs met is the number one priority around his house, and any criticism of that is a symptom of the “me first” culture?

Hilarious.

Jun 26, 2009 - 10:40 pm 182. clare spark:

To bogie wheel who called me out for hyperbole in comment 178. My generalization applies both globally and in this supposedly enlightened country.
If you are a male, you have no idea what supposedly liberated women in the West put up with, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. If you are a female, you are living in a dream world.
I was not attacking men as such, but a shallow culture that cannot speak truthfully about its most intimate relations.
I am impressed that people are still making comments here. It demonstrates what a live and disturbing issue gender relations remain.
And if Klavan was writing a satire on himself, it was not clear to me, and I am as ironic as the next Jewish intellectual,who must often resort to such tactics to survive.

Jun 27, 2009 - 8:25 am 183. Evil Pundit:

Clare Spark, you are a misandrist feminist living in a fantasy world. The US is a matriarchy in which women have all the rights, and men have all the responsibilities.

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:44 pm 184. friedman:

This post and most of the comments make me question evolution in the human species . . . or maybe natural selection will naturally remove us due to such ignorance.

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:19 pm 185. Strawman:

a shallow culture that cannot speak truthfully about its most intimate relations

As opposed to what wonder culture? Pakistan? China? Uranus? Do you also sit around and complain that these earth days are so short? And that week-old fish stink? And how much it sucks when you have a zit on your butt?

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:36 pm 186. maggie:

i couldnt help but be struck by your question “what’s in it for him?” regarding marriage and think to myself ‘what’s in it for me?” the reasons you list for men to avoid marriage could all aply to women just as well. i have used your original text, but modified it to be about women instead of men, to illustrate my point:
“[M]arriage is a large sacrifice for a (wo)man. (S)He gives up [her] right to sleep with a variety of partners, which is [just as much of a] basic an urge in (wo)men as [it is in men]….(S)He takes on responsibilities which will probably curtail both [her] work and [her] social life (especially since women tend to be the ones forced to give up their careers to raise the kids). If (s)he doesn’t also acquire authority, gravitas, respect and, yes, [equal] mastery over [her] own home, what does (s)he get? Companionship? Hey, stay single, [ladies], you’ll have a lot more money, and then you can buy companionship. [and more clothes and shoes!]
i have to also admit i am disappointed in your implication that all women want babies and that few men do. i think you are wrong, and know that you are in my case. my husband returned from his first tour in iraq (he’s a real man, who fights for our country) and it had given him the intense desire to make a baby. i wasnt even close to hearing my “biological clock” start to tick, despite being nearly 30, but i saw how much he wanted a child and i wanted to give him that and did. had the decision been solely up to me, we would probably still be childless, though i love my daughter very much and am glad my husband lobbied for children.
i suspect that the desire to procreate is as strongly ingrained in men as it is in women, though i will agree that the desire to raise and nurture those children does tend to be stronger in women than in men. still, i know several stay-at-home dads who raise their kids while the wife works, and they do an excellent job at it. men have an equal ability for caretaking, though historically cultures have not demanded that of them. just as women have an equal ability for working outside of the home, though that has not been their customary role in the past.

all reasonable women ask for in a marriage is to be treated with respect and to be appreciated. if the woman is getting those two basic things from her husband, then she will be a happy wife, regardless of who brings home the bacon. it sounds like you give your wife both, which is why i believe you probably do have a happy marriage. i have no problem with a man being “king of his own castle”, so long as he treats his wife like the queen and not like the scullery maid.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:21 pm 187. Zack:

You should get down on ur hands and knees and thank god that women have been oppressed for as long as they have been. Otherwise, who would be there for you to take advantage of while you shrink in cowardice from any real expression of this “manhood” you hold so dear. How many of the wars you love sohave you fought in, huh? You leave that for all those men and WOMEN to do for you while you sit at home and order your wife around? You dominate a woman who has been tricked into thinking she needs you (which she doesn’t” and you think THAT qualifies you for “manhood”? Am I the only one laughing here?

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:24 pm 188. Eva:

This is pretty unsettling. So many of you seem to just resent women and blame liberalization for everything.

Do a bit of research on women in the 50’s– returning to their “feminine” roots and happily signing themselves up as slaves. Mostly while drugging themselves senseless and being hopelessly depressed– completely baffled as to why! People don’t remember that the 50’s was a flocking to hyperconservative, anti-feminist ways after years of progress (compared to the relatively liberal decades before, which produced plenty of happy, sensible people).

I think what’s really at hand here is a complete UNWILLINGNESS to compromise, from both sexes. This isn’t a liberal problem (or a conservative one). It’s an across-the-board American entitlement problem. A problem that arose from nobody being willing to take on responsibility and grow up.

As an aside, allow me to also remind readers that feminism DOES NOT mean women are placed above men. It means equal rights. Voting, not being treated as an object, etc. I say I am a feminist and that means that I value BOTH men and women equally. And I am saying– men have no idea what women go through. It’s not fair to say it’s a man’s world, though. Men get the short end, too– because NO ONE is raised to help to take care of themselves and others!! All children are coddled. Men aren’t allowed to be men and women are just plain mistreated and ridiculously damaged by the media. NO sex is happy!

Both men and women are devaluated in this culture, whereas adolescents are placed on a pedestal. Someone above mentioned that and I think they are the closest to right in this situation. Nobody wants to grow up! Nobody wants to take care of someone other than themselves. It’s a product of a highly individualistic, selfish culture.

I, for one, am a bright, ambitious, well-educated independent ADULT at 22, and am amazed by those around me– both male and female– of college age who are such children still.

However, I also find GREAT satisfaction making my partner happy. I love cooking meals and baking and keeping things in order to be sure that my partner is happy, too. I find nothing wrong with being a liberated, intelligent, strong woman who also finds satisfaction in taking care of someone else. I also let my boyfriend hang out with his friends, etc., at the expense of our free time. However, I KNOW I am making sacrifices– and I don’t always feel it’s reciprocated. I don’t think it’s unfair to expect similar sacrifices, but it’s damn near impossible to find someone in my age group who understands what on earth sacrifice means. Seems like I’d have to dig into the 65+ sect to find that sort of mindset.

Basically, the moral of the story is: CARE ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE FOR A CHANGE! Both parties, you whiny babies! Quit blaming feminism or any similar external force.

Jul 3, 2009 - 10:16 am

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