MORE INSIGHT INTO THE ANGELO TSAKOPOULOS OPERATION
Democratic gubernatorial candidate Steve Westly, according to sources, has expanded his media buy to cable TV in all media markets in California. Before today, the state controller’s advertising was running only on broadcast TV outlets, albeit in every market in the state.
Westly’s rival in the Democratic primary for governor of California, Treasurer Phil Angelides, has no TV advertising scheduled anywhere in the state this week, which, ending with the state Democratic convention, will be one of the most critical in the campaign.
Westly’s move, in which he is spending $1 million over the next two weeks on cable advertising, gives him approximately twice as much advertising on cable TV as the independent expenditure campaign funded by the development empire of Angelides’ longtime patron and business partner, Angelo Tsakopoulos.
Five days after I first reported that he was intervening in the governor’s race by funding an independent expenditure TV advertising campaign, Tsakopoulos, the Sacramento region’s leading developer and one of California’s richest men, still has not commented on his bid to boost the troubled campaign of his close friend and associate. Nor has he returned any phone calls from reporters for various media outlets.
The legal limit for an individual contribution to a primary campaign for governor is $22,300. But unlimited amounts can be contributed to an independent committee, if it is truly independent from the campaign it supports.
I phoned Tsakopoulos last Tuesday at a private home number in Sacramento, leaving a message with his household staff. When I tried him back over the weekend, the number had been disconnected.
Tsakopoulos lawyer Ben Davidian, a prominent Republican, was available over the weekend. Davidian, who has played various roles in Republican administrations, is a former chairman of the state’s Fair Political Practices Commission, an expert on the ins and outs of campaign laws. He says that there has been no discussion between Angelides and Tsakopoulos themselves, or their agents, about the independent expenditure TV advertising campaign, which is the only pro-Angelides presence on the state’s airwaves. But he says he doesn’t know what else they have spoken about or when.
“I don’t know when they have spoken or how recently they have spoken,” Davidian said of the two men whose friendship dates back to 1973 when Angelides, then a 19-year old college student of Greek descent running for the Sacramento City Council, made his way into the office of his home town’s most prominent Greek immigrant.
Davidian, pointing out that he knows the state’s campaign laws, insists that there is no legal issue involved in this largest ever independent expenditure by a family on behalf of a gubernatorial candidate. Of the $5 million contributed to date, $3.75 million is from Tsakopoulous, $1.25 million is from his daughter, who is president of the family firm, AKT Development Corp. The issue, he says, is being made much of by Westly chief strategist Garry South, about whom the development kingpin’s associates have little good to say at the moment.
A prominent friend of Tsakopoulos phoned late last week to complain about South’s criticism of the developer and of Westly allowing the engineer of Gray Davis’s two gubernatorial election victories to make such criticisms.
The friend noted that the criticism seemed especially unfair because Tsakopoulos had given Westly $10,000 a few years ago, “when he said he wasn’t running for governor.” The controller was then intending to run for re-election. The $10,000 contribution showed Tsakopoulos’s “good faith toward Westly.” But despite that good faith, argued the developer’s friend, Westly is now allowing criticism of him.
Tsakopoulos, his friend noted, has been a major financial backer of most of California’s major Democratic politicians and some of its unions. This criticism of him, he says, could “demoralize” the man who worked his way up from farm work and waiting tables, leading him to question whether all his work for the party was worth it.
This week marks the fourth week in a row which has begun with the official Angelides campaign off the air. Only the Tsakopoulos-fueled effort provides Angelides with any TV presence in what will be one of the most crucial weeks of the primary campaign. Delegates from around the state will gather this coming weekend in Sacramento for the annual convention of the California Democratic Party. Angelides, the two-term treasurer and former chairman of the party, has long been viewed as the favorite to receive the party’s endorsement. Having no presence on TV, with Westly leading in the latest Field Poll, would be a poor way to motivate delegates coming to the capital city to vote for an Angelides endorsement.
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49 Comments
1. Ann:The lawyer for Angelo knows that he and Angelides have not spoken about the “independent expenditure” yet does not know when they have spoken or what about. Okey-dokey.
Apr 24, 2006 - 7:45 am 2. Hap Hazard:Wasn’t the Angelides ad campaign originally slated to begin Sunday April 23?
Apr 24, 2006 - 8:31 am 3. AthlonGuy:Schwarzenegger made it on TV yesterday too. The free video is up on abcnews. There’s some bonus footage not aired where Arnold gives Stephanopoulos workout tips. Arnold has mellowed quite a bit on the border. He needs to stop exaggerating so much - He made the shocking claim that some of the tunnels under the border had trucks driving through them, which is sort of not true. Anyway, hopefully he’ll win in November.
Apr 24, 2006 - 8:33 am 4. Bill Bradley:Yes, I reported a couple weeks ago that the official Angelides campaign would be back on the air this week heading into the state Demo convention. That was before I knew about the Angelo-funded campaign.
Apr 24, 2006 - 8:38 am 5. CG:Actually, what Arnold really said and has said before, which is a direct quote from the FBI and DEA, is that these tunnels, built to completion, had the potential to drive small trucks through them. As it is, those tunnels can drive an ATV through them — particularly one they recently found somewhere near the southwest corner of Texas near the Mexican border.
But a better question, and one that really confuses me, is why the GOP in California and nationally have turned on this issue. Sorry, but doesn’t this seem like a losing issue for them in large electoral states like Texas and Florida. Not to mention states with rapidly growing Latino populations like Georgia?
Am I missing something or won’t the GOP end up looking like the “rich white guy” party again? Bill or any blogger, can I get an opinion on this.
Apr 24, 2006 - 9:04 am 6. Hap Hazard:I don’t see how it pencils for the Westly campagn to make so much ado about the IE and thereby draw further public attention to the ad and to Phil.
Apr 24, 2006 - 9:06 am 7. Hap Hazard:CG, I think that the immigration issue is quite complicated for both the GOP and the Dems, which is why I think that we politicians from both parties all over the map and running for cover. Where I think it ends up is (1) nothing happens at all until after the midterm elections or (2) some bill emerges that gives amnesty to theose already here, enacts a somewhat orderly process for going from guest worker to legal resident to citizen, and puts up a fence or at least starts the ball rolling on one.
Apr 24, 2006 - 9:14 am 8. Adam:Hap, it’s not exactly like it’s drawing positive or even neutral attention to Angelides. All the stories about it bring up Angelo and call him Phil’s ‘patron” and they also bring up how badly things have been going for Phil’s campaign. Plus, Garry South gets in his digs.
That said, I think it’s time for Westly to act like the frontrunner he now is, and rise above the bickering over this (most voters don’t and won’t care unless there’s some larger scandal that develops), and show us more of his vision beyond what he’s already put out there.
Apr 24, 2006 - 9:40 am 9. CG:Hap,
Thanks for the answer…much appreciated. But ultimately, since the perception is that GOP is riding herd on this thing — don’t you think that they pay a larger price than the Dems? This is particularly true, it seems, since the GOP is having some serious internal struggles with regard to it. Moreover, given the Latino voting population has grown exponentially, why alienate such a large bloc of voters — or are they foolish enough to think that they can remain the “old white guy” party.
On the Angelides ad buy, I don’t think that anything the Westly guys say or do will make a difference here. Ultimately, the ad buy, as weak as it is, smacks of desperation by the Angelides people. Believe it or not, the voters will see it given that the media is starting to descend on the campaign like vultures in the desert. And it doesn’t help that Angelo T. is leading the charge money-wise — I am not sure his public “developer” perception is really all that good. Besides, I don’t know if Angelo’s heart is really in this campaign anymore — Phil has really failed to live up to expectations many had for him when this race began.
Apr 24, 2006 - 9:41 am 10. Barbara:“Tsakopoulos lawyer Ben Davidian, a prominent Republican, was available over the weekend”
The law requires that someone must sign under penalty of perjury to certify that the independent expenditure was not made in cooperation, consultation, or concert with, or at the request or suggestion of, a candidate… did Mr. Davidian state who signed the certification?
Apr 24, 2006 - 10:08 am 11. Hap Hazard:CG — It seems to me that the GOP is forced to be out front on this because they are in charge of House and Senate, at least for now. But their tenure as the majority party in Congress hasn’t exactly been known for courage and leadership, and I think that this is another illustration of that. But the issue has been dropped on them, and given the timing, during a runup to the fall elections, I think it is possible the GOP leadership and the Democrat leadership might come up with some incumbent-protection bill that trys to touch all the bases. But the Democrats seem to me to be facing some difficulty adopting a unifying position on this issue as well, since the Latino community seems somewhat divided on immigration, as does the labor community and the African American community.
I totally agree that the Angelo T. firefighter ad helps confirm the impression that Phil has reached desperation stage. It appears to me that he is asking for a sympathy vote or something. I think that Angelides could have found himself in his current predicament no matter how he ran his campaign, simply because of timing and circumstances. It seems possible to me that folks out there are thinking, hey, this movie star thing isn’t working, and we don’t want politics as usual, which, for better or worse, Phil is perceived to be a politician first and foremost. Now comes Steve Westly, the eBay, high tech, PayPal business guy with a new fresh face.
Apr 24, 2006 - 10:09 am 12. Sooth Sayer:CG,
Apr 24, 2006 - 10:19 am 13. Barbara:Thanks for your contributions and insights on this blog.
On immigration, the debate has been set up to be all pain for GOP in ‘06 and all gain for dems.
Deep division among republicans on this so they are debating themselves–one of the downsides of being Congressional majority party– Battle lines are drawn between moralists who want to close the border and the economic conservatives who want to exploit illegals for economic benefit.
The fragile GOP coalition is fracturing as there has always been suspicion between moral conservatives and economic conservatives.
Guest Worker Program is perceived as amnesty. period.
The only thing worse than picking a side is trying to have it both ways.
All of this contributes to the dispirited and disappointed rank and file republicans who will cause a depressed GOP turnout this fall.
Sayeth Sooth
“Only the Tsakopoulos-fueled effort provides Angelides with any TV presence in what will be one of the most crucial weeks of the primary campaign. ”
I’m assuming you mean it is “Crucial” for Phil not really for Westly…I mean let’s suppose for the moment that the Dems endorse Phil.. that will provide a needed boost BUT it certainly does not take the wind out of the sails for Westly…(I am assuming most do not believe that the Delegates would endorse Westly over Phil.).. but at the same time a NO Endorsement would be a win for Westly and again another “crucial” setback for Phil. Correct?
Apr 24, 2006 - 10:53 am 14. Bill Bradley:I would say it means what it means.
Apr 24, 2006 - 10:55 am 15. Barbara:“one of the most crucial weeks”
Well when I read what you wrote I thought about what Willie Brown said …something like this would all be over in first week of May….and here we are the last week of April …
Apr 24, 2006 - 11:05 am 16. Bill Bradley:I think the Republicans are all discombobulated on immigration policy, on the message mix on immigration (social tolerance/security/cheap labor), on the relationship of the President to the states — I had an interesting encounter on Fox News the other day on the oddity of Bush coming to California now — you name it.
Apr 24, 2006 - 11:38 am 17. The400MillionDollarMan:As a defense to Westly’s personal spending on the primary, the Westly campaign is quick to say that Angelides is also a multi-millionaire and can spend his own money on his campaign as well. What they fail to mention, however, is that Angelides is worth about $10 million whereas Westly is worth about $400 million. Westly has already spent about $20 million of his own money on his own campaign — for all the mathmeticians in the Westly campaign, that is double Angelides’ net worth. Angelides cannot spend his own money and keep up with the $400 million man. So rather than criticize Angelides for trying to stay in the race by utilizing Angelo’s treasure-chest, why don’t we start scorning the fact that Westly is basically buying the election here.
Second, while Angelides isn’t exactly the personality of all personalities, let us get one thing straight — Steve Westly does not have the personality to beat Arnold come November. Some might argue that he has the money to do so, but Angelides will be in a much better financial position if he wins the primary and gains access to the various union treasure chests.
We need to stop comparing the net worth of a man woth $400 million and a man worth $10 million — it is NOT a valid comparison.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:08 pm 18. Bill Bradley:Remember, “400MillionDollarMan,” the rule here is that if your principal purpose is to spin/advocate on behalf of a campaign, you have to use your real name. If you fail to do so, you are out. I do tire of reminding people of that.
This is not a chat room for anonymous spin, attacks, and other assorted bullshit.
Now, here’s the thing. I don’t know the net worth of Steve Westly. I also don’t know the net worth of Phil Angelides. I have some pretty good ideas — my read, you are substantially high on Westly and low on Angelides — but I don’t really know.
How do you know?
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:17 pm 19. 400MillionDollarMan:Sorry. I did not know all the rules. No more advocating, but honsetly, I do not favor one candidate over another — I was simply trying to play Devil’s Advocate.
As to Westly’s net worth, if you look at insider trading disclosures and other financial reports prior to Westly’s winning of the Controller’s race (before all of his assets went into a blind trust), it was estimated that Westly had about 1-2 million shares of EBay stock — it has split twice since then — so lets say he has about 4-8 million shares of EBay. At $34 a share today, that is $135-$270 million. At the peak of EBay’s stock price, last year (about $60 a share), his net worth would have been anywhere from $240-$480 million.
Reports as to Phil’s net worth in various articles I have read — simply type into google (phil angelides and “net worth”) — have estimated his wealth at anywhere from $4 million to $18 million. There is a giant discrepancy between the wealth of these two men that needs to be discussed to have a valid conversation here.
That being said, under the law, as everyone knows, Westly is completely entitled to spend his own money under the First Amendment.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:36 pm 20. Bill Bradley:Well, all you have to do to know the rules is to look at the recent comments. I had to play sheriff on a Saturday night. That was not pleasant.
“Insider trading disclosures?” Sure you’re not an “advocate?”
That’s not what it is called, of course, and I believe you will find major stock SALES, thus making your point about last year’s peak stock price rather moot.
We do not know what Phil’s net worth is because he will not allow his tax returns prior to his becoming state treasurer to be prerused. He made his money as a land developer and investor, and that is the period in his life which remains mostly unexamined.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:40 pm 21. Bill Bradley:Oh, and the question of the Tsakopoulos funding arises because of the campaign reform laws in this state, which disallow contributions of that magnitude.
Unless they are part of an independent expenditure. Many do not believe there is anything independent about this, which is why it is controversial.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:43 pm 22. carole wiese:Dear 400milllion dollar dis-gruntled man,
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:45 pm 23. Ron (aka 400MillionDollarMan:The union check books are a little low from the prop 75 fight. When you spin the candidates net worths, it just re enforces the fact that the voters are sick of negative politics…I am a voter.
I put my real name, so that if what I am doing is considered advocating, then I am within the rules.
Do not call me an advocate. I do not have any bias toward either candidate. The fact remains that you are still failing to acknowledge that Steve is spending mostly his own money whereas Phil is spending hard-earned money that he raised from far more NUMEROUS groups than Steve. Bottom line: if we have a democracy that is based on issue-advocacy and issue advocate spending, then even if Angelides takes Angelo’s money, he is still far more within the reaches of what the Framers likely intended than is Mr. Westly.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:47 pm 24. Bill Bradley:You get another opportunity.
Ron who? Working for whom, affiliated with whom?
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:50 pm 25. Ron (aka 400MillionDollarMan:I understand why the Union checkbooks are a little depleted, and I am glad that they are because the Governor’s initiatives would have been disasterous.
Mr. Bradley, I understand what an IE is, and I understand the controversy. I am just trying to re-frame the issue a little to give it a little more perspective. Possibly, it is you with an agenda because anytime anyone mentions anything negative, or should I say simple facts about Mr. Westly that paint him a little negatively, you get extremely defensive.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:51 pm 26. Ron (aka 400MillionDollarMan:I am a law student who came accross your blog and really enjoy it. So, simply put: I don’t work for anyone. I am just an interested observer who cares about the future of California.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:53 pm 27. Bill Bradley:Yeah. We had someone here who called him/herself “Eli Jacks” and also claimed to a student not affiliated with anyone.
False.
How many opportunities do you really think you get to identify yourself?
This is becoming amusing.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:56 pm 28. Ron (aka 400MillionDollarMan:Honestly. I am a third year law student.
Apr 24, 2006 - 12:57 pm 29. Bill Bradley:And, HONESTLY, I have given you, what, eight opportunities to actually identify yourself.
You refuse to give your name.
End of story.
Apr 24, 2006 - 1:00 pm 30. Tom:Did Phil put any of his own mony into his campaign and if so how much? If it was me and I really believed that what I was doing was right and was going to really help others, I would spend every penny I had, of course assuming my wife felt the same way as I…
Apr 24, 2006 - 1:16 pm 31. Adam:It’s silly for people to claim that the press hasn’t been pointing out Westly’s use of his own fortune–it’s in EVERY article about him.
Bill here refers to him quite frequently as ’super-rich ex-E-bay honcho” and hasn’t once ignored the fact that Westly has tapped into his own fortune to fund his campaign.
Why isn’t there ‘more criticism’ of Westly for bankrolling his own campaign? a) because it’s perfectly legal; b) he made his own money by being a key player with a very popular company and c) unlike Checchi or Harmon or Issa or any other rich would-be governor, Westly has shown himself to be a credible, likeable, and serious candidate. If he hadn’t, he would have bottomed out by now.
Apr 24, 2006 - 1:22 pm 32. Bill Bradley:Just to remind all, I insisted that “CG” — who is a sharp-tongued opponent of Angelides — either identify him/herself or stop making the campaign the principal purpose of her/his posts.
We have had a few Angelides partisans post here under their real names. Tom Kaptain, is turns out, really is named Tom Kaptain. So that’s cool. Brian Brokaw and Bob Mulholland have posted here in the past. Though not lately. They are welcome any time.
What we have had is a spate of furtive pro-Angelides posters here who post either only spinning on his behalf or principally spinning on his behalf. It’s odd, because the candidate has a strong story to tell. Too bad he’s not telling it.
Apr 24, 2006 - 1:22 pm 33. Adam:Another thing about rich, self-financing candidates: because there have been so many over the past few election cylces, and pretty much all of them have been disastrous, the bar was set very high for Westly.
Most, if not all, the state’s political reporters initially looked at him with a high degree of skepticism. (Heck, until about a month ago, Dan Walters and George Skelton were still treating Angelides as a shoe-in for the nomination.)
But Westly has obviously crossed the threshold of media doubt, and because unlike every other super-rich wannabe, he’s already won a state wide race, he’s done something they hadn’t.
Apr 24, 2006 - 1:51 pm 34. Kyle:As CG states in her non-biased post, it is true that he is a wealthy businessman. And he probably won’t be able to spend $25 million on the race. I wonder if he’ll be willing to put some money into the race now that he’s behind?
Also, does anybody know how much Westly is willing/able to spend if he gets the nomination? I seem to remember articles about his net worth putting it in the $100 million range. If you’re talking about another $25 million to beat Arnold, you’re getting pretty close to half his fortune. Is he really willing to do that, or is he counting on unions and the party to carry him the rest of the way? Maybe he or the campaign commented on this already?
Apr 24, 2006 - 1:55 pm 35. CA Dem:I don’t know what Steve Westly is worth, but I do respect that he is a self-made guy. It’s my understanding that prior to his eBay success, he was making a decent but unspectacular wage working in the City of San Jose and a part-time salary as a Stanford professor. He was born of relatively modest means and worked hard to get into Stanford, just like Phil worked hard to get into Harvard. Westly and Phil, each in their own way, represent the American Dream. So does the Governor, who came to this country with nothing but a bad accent and lots of muscles. Let’s focus on the issues, shall we?
Apr 24, 2006 - 2:15 pm 36. Phil:As with most all elections, it’ll be a popularity contest.
Policy positions are nice, but if you don’t like someone (more than the other person), you won’t vote for them.
Apr 24, 2006 - 2:20 pm 37. Bill Bradley:I have deleted eight posts by people who — despite repeated warnings — have refused to properly identify themselves as folks whose principal purpose here is to spin/advocate on the governor’s race. In this case, on opposite sides of the Democratic primary.
They would have been deleted sooner had I not been in the middle of an important conversation when they were made.
Stuff like that wastes my time and is not appreciated.
And now you should understand that it wastes your time.
Apr 24, 2006 - 2:37 pm 38. Bill Bradley:Kyle, Westly is definitely worth more than $100 million. Your concern is probably misplaced.
Apr 24, 2006 - 2:39 pm 39. Amanda:Don’t you think it is a little crazy of you to delete posts without at least defining advocacy?
Apr 24, 2006 - 2:56 pm 40. Amanda:CA Dem wrote: “I don’t know what Steve Westly is worth, but I do respect that he is a self-made guy. It’s my understanding that prior to his eBay success, he was making a decent but unspectacular wage working in the City of San Jose and a part-time salary as a Stanford professor.”
How is that not advocacy?
Apr 24, 2006 - 2:58 pm 41. Bill Bradley:The purpose of this site is not to waste my time playing games with people who refuse to reveal their identities while they engage in a remarkably furtive campaign.
You have just made two silly posts in a row.
A. You know what “advocacy” means.
B. You know the rule. And you know what “principal purpose” means.
Don’t try to debate the meaning of “is.”
It won’t happen.
Apr 24, 2006 - 3:02 pm 42. Tom:I just saw the Air force One lift off. It is a very quite jet. I think the whole Bush visit and Arnold banging the drum for levee funds is a good cop bad cop thing. I can not believe that we would not be able to get funds for levee repair after Katrina.
Apr 24, 2006 - 3:20 pm 43. Phil:Advocating for a particular candidate/position is a Good Thing.
Being sneaky and not divulging that you’re doing it under the auspices of a particular candidate/position is a Bad Thing.
It’s hard to beleive people have a hard time following that kind of simple honesty. Then again, in looking at the kerfuffle over Michael Hiltzik’s recent escapades, maybe it is something people need to be reminded of.
No more sock puppets!
Apr 24, 2006 - 3:34 pm 44. Julia Rosen:Tom believe it.
Arnold has now met with the head of the interior who said, don’t worry the weather service thinks you should be fine, if you don’t get a couple more storms. He had that lovely flight with Chertoff. The gov. met with Andy Card, before he got fired. Now he spent 15 minutes chit chatting with the president. What would Bush have to gain by with holding the money for political reasons? They are rolling the dice with this one, betting we will not get a few more rainstorms or that it will not warmup and melt the snow. If they are wrong maybe then Arnold will be the good cop and get to say I told you so while the Central Valley drowns.
They could have had Arnold come off as the hero by getting the money. I think a lot of Californians understood he was gambling by just meeting with the president. Instead he looks like an incompetent chump who cannot get a Republican adminstration to help out California. He promised us he would be different and be the “Collectionator” for federal funds. The only thing he comes back with from DC are campaign checks. All Bush comes here for are campaign checks and a nice bike ride.
Apr 24, 2006 - 3:43 pm 45. Hap Hazard:I think one reason for the lack of federal money stems from the fact that it is difficult to get any federal government to declare a national disaster in the absence of a frank emergency, like actual levee breaks and people flooded out of their homes.
Apr 24, 2006 - 3:55 pm 46. AthlonGuy:Mr. T and Angelides could give some very powerful and public statements about what they think about the levees. They should turn their potential negative into a big positive - basically knowing what they are talking about.
Frankly, I live in the Sacramento area and yet I still think levees are a Community Developer City State responsibility. Floodable land is for golf, parks, farming and dumps. If a clump of 1000 homes needs a levee, make them each pay $500/year to hire someone to go shoot all the gophers living in the levee, and to maintain it.
It is not wise to have Cheney responsible for shooting California’s levee gophers, for several reasons.
Apr 24, 2006 - 4:13 pm 47. CA Dem:Amanda, gimme a break. Here’s the rest of what I said before:
“[Westly] was born of relatively modest means and worked hard to get into Stanford, just like Phil worked hard to get into Harvard. Westly and Phil, each in their own way, represent the American Dream. So does the Governor, who came to this country with nothing but a bad accent and lots of muscles. Let’s focus on the issues, shall we?”
That’s advocacy… on behalf of all three candidates for Governor! May the best man win!
Apr 24, 2006 - 4:49 pm 48. Bill Bradley:There is a peculiarly furtive, straw man-oriented psychology at work with those posts.
Apr 24, 2006 - 4:58 pm 49. Newfiemoose:I think what most folks are overlooking vis-a-vis the Democratic primary is that Steve Westly looks like a Governor and Phil Angelides doesn’t. And looks do count for something in American politics. Central casting would be much more likely to pick Westly for the role of Governor than Angelides. And since both candidates’ positions are reasonably similar, my prediction is that Mr. Westly will win the primary by a healthy margin.
Apr 24, 2006 - 10:14 pm