New West Notes

241 Comments

Jonas Blane:

Nice video again. Schwarzenegger is doing a great job out there.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:53 am Jonas Blane:

Nice video again. Schwarzenegger is doing a great job out there.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:53 am Ann:

San Diego County doesn’t even have a fire department. No wonder the place keeps burning down. lol

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:30 am Capitol Boy:

They avoid local taxes and bleed the state for bailouts when they have their predictable disasters. It’s a real political scam.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:12 am Capitol Boy:

I’m glad Bush isn’t the total idiot he’d have to be to screw this disaster up. It’s real reassuring. All it would took was the destruction of a big city to learn.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:15 am Kandy Kid:

Providing public safety services and disaster response are the blocking and tackling of governance. Too many times we focus on the political trick plays and policy Hail Marys instead.

Arnold is doing great here - leading the troops, comforting the victims, communicating competence. The folks in Portugal expecting him next week for a global warming event should plan for another consolation video appearance.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:30 am Hap Hazard:

They avoid local taxes and bleed the state for bailouts when they have their predictable disasters. It’s a real political scam. - This is particularly true in Malibu

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:32 am Bill Bradley:

I don’t know all the particulars on this yet, but all the areas where these fires recur will have to be looked into.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:36 am Bill Bradley:

Very true.

>Kandy Kid :
Providing public safety services and disaster response are the blocking and tackling of governance. Too many times we focus on the political trick plays and policy Hail Marys instead.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:37 am Bill Bradley:

Very true.

>Kandy Kid :
Providing public safety services and disaster response are the blocking and tackling of governance. Too many times we focus on the political trick plays and policy Hail Marys instead.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:37 am Bill Bradley:

That is amazing, isn’t it?

>Ann :
San Diego County doesn’t even have a fire department. No wonder the place keeps burning down. lol
Oct 24, 2007 06:30 AM

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:38 am Bill Bradley:

Thanks and, apparently, yes.

>Jonas Blane :
Nice video again. Schwarzenegger is doing a great job out there.
Oct 24, 2007 05:53 AM

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:39 am Mike M.:

One of the major differences between Katrina and these fires is that transportation infrastructure is pretty much unharmed by the fires whereas the flooding destroyed and/or disabled ground transportation in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding territory. It is much easier logistically to supply evacuees via trucks than helicopters. (It is also much easier for evacuees to get to safety in vehicles vs. on foot.) Furthermore, most of the communications media were disabled when the electricity grid went down: No way to see the extent of the damage (and suffering) initially. Finally, compared to Katrina the fires are a “slow motion” disaster. The storm and flooding occurred in a relative short period of time covering an entire region. The fires are limited (relatively), local and unfolding.

Oct 24, 2007 - 8:08 am Len:

There iis no excuse for fires to rage time after time in the same places. That is just pissed poor planning. It’s irresponsible.

Oct 24, 2007 - 8:10 am carole w:

Good Morning,
We had a wind shift here. I am safe but,a little nervous. The fire is up in the burn area of the Butlter peak area now(Remember labor day). I will have a lot to say about this after the Firefighters have a chance to kick the fires ass. It will be similar to one of the campaign speeches I did back in 2004…when no one listened to me.
And just to make a point…a couple of months ago, I bitched and complained about dead trees next to my property. The dead trees are still there. Mr. Bradley can chop trees and work a hose as good as you can write?

Oct 24, 2007 - 8:10 am carole w:

and a correction…the fire is in the Frebella area not Butler Peak.

Oct 24, 2007 - 8:36 am carole w:

Below Fredalba in an area called Smiley Park. This is the most current live active fire area I can find.

Oct 24, 2007 - 8:43 am Capitol Boy:

Lose your saw?

Oct 24, 2007 - 9:26 am Brasky:

glad to hear your safe carole w.

I was watching KTLA yesterday - they specifically talked about the bark beetle damage and number of dead trees up Arrowhead way.

Capitol Boy has a point - if you can find a passing firefighter, maybe you can convince them to cut those trees down as a fire break.

Oct 24, 2007 - 9:30 am Brasky:

glad to hear your safe carole w.

I was watching KTLA yesterday - they specifically talked about the bark beetle damage and number of dead trees up Arrowhead way.

Capitol Boy has a point - if you can find a passing firefighter, maybe you can convince them to cut those trees down as a fire break.

Oct 24, 2007 - 9:30 am carole w:

Hi CB and Brasky,
I am glad to hear your opinions. The only thing on my political wish list now is for the reevaluation of fire/police assets per risk population. I want to increase personnel and equipment. I do not want to blame the politicians for this disaster, I want them to learn and make change. If my taxes go up, so be it.
I wish you guys were up here to wave your magic lawyer wand and get the dead vegetation removed. I can’t legally go onto my neighbors property and cut his native vegetation. I would be siting in the local jail with a roll of toilet paper to keep me company.

Oct 24, 2007 - 9:40 am Brasky:

Ah, but if the firefighters cut down those trees…

Well, why couldn’t you ultimately get those trees cut down? Is the landowner unable to pay? Unwilling? Is there some hang-up with permits or something?

I hate to mention it, but you might be able to bring some sort of nuisance suit against someone. If someone in authority or of undisputed expert opinion says those trees pose some sort of threat to you (either by falling or burning), you might have a case.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:03 am Brasky:

Mike M: Let’s also not forget that the population density of most of the fire areas is significantly lower than New Orleans or any other urban area.

Most of what’s burned is rural and suburban. The fires stretch the half the length of California. Even in San Diego County, the fires are distributed over a huge area.

If downtown LA caught fire and 500,000 people had hours or minutes to evacuate from a few square miles, it would be a very different scene.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:09 am Bill Bradley:

Carole, is there some sort of local environmental ordinance or something preventing the clearing of trees/foliage near your home? What’s the problem on that?

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:12 am Bill Bradley:

True, communications went largely down in Hurricane Katrina.

But I knew the city was on the verge of destruction by simply watching the news reports before the storm struck. I actually expected the damage to be even worse. As did many others.

The failure to act is one of the reasons FEMA went through a shakeup.

>Mike M. :
One of the major differences between Katrina and these fires is that transportation infrastructure is pretty much unharmed by the fires whereas the flooding destroyed and/or disabled ground transportation in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding territory. It is much easier logistically to supply evacuees via trucks than helicopters. (It is also much easier for evacuees to get to safety in vehicles vs. on foot.) Furthermore, most of the communications media were disabled when the electricity grid went down: No way to see the extent of the damage (and suffering) initially. Finally, compared to Katrina the fires are a “slow motion” disaster. The storm and flooding occurred in a relative short period of time covering an entire region. The fires are limited (relatively), local and unfolding.
Oct 24, 2007 08:08 AM

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:15 am Bill Bradley:

Okay, I have to ask. How does downtown LA catch fire?

The only thing I can think of is as the result of a huge earthquake.

>If downtown LA caught fire and 500,000 people had hours or minutes to evacuate from a few square miles, it would be a very different scene.

Oct 24, 2007 10:09 AM

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:16 am Bill Bradley:

Okay, I have to ask. How does downtown LA catch fire?
The only thing I can think of is as the result of a huge earthquake.

>If downtown LA caught fire and 500,000 people had hours or minutes to evacuate from a few square miles, it would be a very different scene.
Oct 24, 2007 10:09 AM

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:16 am carole w:

Yes…I agree. The spirit of the law is unfortunately favored to the one with the most funds. The Modus Operandi in this case is to prove the complainer not mentally fit to be an expert witness in a criminal or civil prosecution. I am not kidding. You see I am imagining these trees:)
The local politicians are working very hard to approve a natural vegetation ordinance that would force the land owner to remove the risk but, they are fighting against a powerful lobby.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:20 am Brasky:

“Okay, I have to ask. How does downtown LA catch fire? :)”

All it takes is one bad outcome on some celebrity trial. One minute everyone’s watch E!, then WOOSH!

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:29 am Brasky:

carole w: I still don’t understand the general hang-up. Is it environmental? Is it based on the cost of removing the dead trees? Is it something else?

I’m guessing coming to an agreement with the landowner isn’t possible. It sounds like the local government avenue is being successfully blocked.

Since you have some connection with firefighters, might I recommend some state legislation that would trump your local quagmire. With the help of the firefighters, you might get some exacting language out of the legislature rather quickly, given the current circumstances.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:38 am Mike T:

The bottom line is the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana have totally corrupt and ineffective governments. To his credit, Arnold knew how to ask for help. The bottomline concerning slow response is interagency jealousy and the need to protect turf at all costs. How many air tankers never got off the ground to fight these fires?

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:42 am Bill Bradley:

There’s plenty of blame to go around on Katrina.

The Democratic governor of Louisiana was deservedly defeated for re-election over the weekend by Republican Congressman Bobby Jindal.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:46 am Brasky:

Actually, until today, many air tankers were grounded or given only limited operations due to dangerous wind conditions.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:50 am Brasky:

Actually, until today, many air tankers were grounded or given only limited operations due to dangerous wind conditions.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:50 am Len:

The Bush crowd let New Orleans drown. They’ve left it a wreck today. Doesn’t matter how bad the locals are at “asking for help.”

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:51 am Bill Bradley:

Incidentally, NWN passed 42,000 comments sometime in the past week.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:54 am carole w:

We need a good balance of need versus personal profit. We are a resort community that relies on our local business sales and TOT taxes,(the hotel taxes). If the main roads,( we have three of them) are closed due to fire/flood/earthquake damage…then the local businesses are deeply hurt. Which makes it difficult to expand the budget of the local fire and sheriff services. The local politicians due a good job of representing the business side but are struggling to properly represent the residence side. It is difficult,but times are changing.
Another issue for us to deal with is the environmental concerns versus fire safety. If you stop the building then we loose our industry, if you build we run out of water. If you disturb the natural habitat, you are an enemy of the Sierra Club.
This is a wonderful place to live and raise your children but, the politicians have their hands full dealing with a changing economy and
the issue of raising local taxes.

Oct 24, 2007 - 10:57 am Brasky:

carole w: all that aside, I still don’t understand why you can’t get giant dead trees cut down from residential property when it’s clearly a danger.

There are environmentalists who argue that dead trees make-up an important part of the ecosystem, but even then, it’s generally limited to old growth forests, not someone’s back yard.

Oct 24, 2007 - 11:12 am carole w:

Brasky,
I have begged, pleaded, bitched and blogged. Some trees are considered protected because once upon a time an eagle family might have lived there. As I have blogged before, one of the trees has an old yellow “x” which currently means the utility company is responsible for removing it but, I have all underground utilities? SO,they said, “No”. We did have federal funds for tree removal but, I am not sure what the balance is on that account.
I have been caught in a political circle jerk. Fortunately, I think the taxpayers/voters/politicians will be more likely to pass a mandatory vegetation removal ordinance after the fact. I am not sure who will pick up the tab but, it would be wonderful if the Federal and or state could move fast on this issue.
I personally know of a business in Big Bear Lake that would be excited to come in and remove the trees and or vegetation if the laws was swiftly moved into action.

Oct 24, 2007 - 11:53 am Bill Bradley:

Dead roses are considered very fashionable in some circles.

>There are environmentalists who argue that dead trees make-up an important part of the ecosystem, but even then, it’s generally limited to old growth forests, not someone’s back yard.
Oct 24, 2007 11:12 AM

Oct 24, 2007 - 11:59 am Dana:

Brasky, property rights in certain settings are a touchy issue.

Bill, you ask some very good questions for the post-mortem of this event. We need well thought out policies, and need to question assumptions. For instance, the Republicans gung ho for surface storage should consider this quote in the Sunday New York Times Maqgazine by Roger Pulwarty, a climatologist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, on the impact of trends toward a drying of the climate in the west:

People are calling for more storage on the system, but if you can’t fill the reservoirs you have, I don’t know how more storage, or more dams, is going to help you. One has to ask if the normal strategies that we have are actually viable anymore.

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:14 pm Dana:

Brasky, property rights in certain settings are a touchy issue.

Bill, you ask some very good questions for the post-mortem of this event. We need well thought out policies, and need to question assumptions. For instance, the Republicans gung ho for surface storage should consider this quote in the Sunday New York Times Maqgazine by Roger Pulwarty, a climatologist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, on the impact of trends toward a drying of the climate in the west:

People are calling for more storage on the system, but if you can’t fill the reservoirs you have, I don’t know how more storage, or more dams, is going to help you. One has to ask if the normal strategies that we have are actually viable anymore.

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:14 pm NickM:

Kathleen Blanco chose not to run for reelection at a time when polls showed her losing by about 20 points to Jindal. He beat a collection of other candidates, not her, this year.

Individual desires often run contrary to effective fire suppression techniques - among other things, many homeowners like large trees very close to their houses.

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:23 pm Hap Hazard:

Dead roses are considered very fashionable in some circles. - I guess they’re sitting there in their silk upholstered chair,
Talkin’ to some rich folk that they know..
Well I hope they won’t see me, in my ragged company..

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:28 pm Hap Hazard:

but if you can’t fill the reservoirs you have, I don’t know how more storage, or more dams, is going to help you. — Dana isn’t it a somewhat different story for off-stream storage, as opposed to in-stream dams? Seems that one of the arguments for off-stream storage is that it can be turned off and on easily, and flows can be more readily calibrated so water doesn’t just flow out to sea when there is a major storm, etc.

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:35 pm Dana:

I’ll readily confess I don’t know. Those sorts of facilities may have a role in our water system. My larger point is change in climate, whether cyclical or from other causes, presents challenges that should force us to examine assumptions.

>Hap Hazard :

Dana isn’t it a somewhat different story for off-stream storage, as opposed to in-stream dams?

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:41 pm Hap Hazard:

Dana - One of the global warming predictions is that there would be increased rainfall in place of snowfall, which would seem to argue in favor of increasing storage capacity in either instream or offstream fashion, although off-stream certainly is friendlier to fish and wildlife….

I am not expert on these either, but one thing I wonder about, in terms of the post-mortem examination of the fires, is why San Diego and city haven’t spent money on firehouses, fire personnel, and so forth, even after a terrible fire in the nearby region in 2003…

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:47 pm Brasky:

Somehow, I doubt bald eagles would nest in any tree within several hundred yards of humans.

You may have a rampant case of NIMBYISM, which sometimes masquerades as environmentalism.

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:58 pm Dana:

Hap, the piece in the Times Magazine has experts discuss changes in climate patterns that could mean less percipitation in either form.

And as I noted already, when given the opportunity after the terrible fires of 2003 the folks in San Diego said no to a tax measure to improve firefighting capability. They are reaping what the sowed in their zeal against taxes, even for their own benefit!

Oct 24, 2007 - 12:59 pm willis:

“There iis no excuse for fires to rage time after time in the same places. That is just pissed poor planning. It’s irresponsible.”

You forgot to add that Bush is responsible for this too.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:06 pm willis:

“There iis no excuse for fires to rage time after time in the same places. That is just pissed poor planning. It’s irresponsible.”

You forgot to add that Bush is responsible for this too.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:06 pm Roger:

The only crisis in Lousiana was created by an inept local and state government compounded by terrible media reporting. If anyone had any idea how emergency management worked, they would have known the response is local and the recovery starts in, normally, 72 hours. As it was, the feds (coast guard) were flying rescue missions as soon as the eye passed–unprecedented in emergency management.

The media and the corrupt democratic machines in NO and LA blamed the feds for their own failures. Nagin and Blanco should be tried for negligent homicide; One third of Nagin’s police force deserted after looting stores.

The difference between NOLA and the rest of the country is the civic culture. The residents of NOLA were, largely, savages–the rest of the country are humans–and it shows.

Ohhhh–that wasnt politically correct, was it.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:09 pm Ann:

Oh, God, another righty wingnut with its bile.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:11 pm Roger:

No Ann–a fully trained emergency manager: ICS and NIMS qualified and experienced. Your emergency management qualifications are, precisely, what?

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:14 pm Greg:

Regarding comparisons to Katrina (I live in the New Orleans MSA), part of the problem is that that response to Katrina was far better than the press reported and developed far more unexpectedly than we thought at the time. We thought we dodged the bullet again until the levees and levee walls were clearly broken 24 hours after landfall. Clearly, though, city and state government was lax during Katrina.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html?page=2

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:16 pm Ann:

So you claim. You sound like a hater.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:17 pm Roger:

I am not a hater at all. My heart goes out to the resident of NOLA who were victimized by an incompetent local government. The City of NO emergency plan required 72 hours for evacuation–Nagin didnt sound evacuation until too late. As it was, as Greg notes, the city did a magnificent job evacuating 75 percent of the popultation.

And–for the record–I spent three weeks wading through the muck working on shelter sanitation as a public health volunteer.

So spare me your foolish and very uninformed judgments.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:24 pm Roger:

I am not a hater at all. My heart goes out to the resident of NOLA who were victimized by an incompetent local government. The City of NO emergency plan required 72 hours for evacuation–Nagin didnt sound evacuation until too late. As it was, as Greg notes, the city did a magnificent job evacuating 75 percent of the popultation.

And–for the record–I spent three weeks wading through the muck working on shelter sanitation as a public health volunteer.

So spare me your foolish and very uninformed judgments.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:24 pm mike:

Len said,
The Bush crowd let New Orleans drown. They’ve left it a wreck today. Doesn’t matter how bad the locals are at “asking for help.”
I am always amazed when people can despise another person so much, especially when that person has not touched his/her life personally. NEW ORLEANS, a MAJOR American city and port of entry, WAS UNDERWATER!! Have you seen the pictures? This fire, as bad as it is, has burned maybe 10% of the areas involved, and that number is probably high!!

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:24 pm Jrm:

To carole w, RE trees:My grandfather, a very wise man, once told me “Nothing gets fixed until someone dies.”He was referring to an intersection that didn’t get a traffic light, despite years of complaints and lobbying, until a woman and child were killed there by a UPS truck.I have found the same rule applies to almost any govermental action.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:24 pm Bill Bradley:

Incidentally, just so we’re clear. Which should be obvious, actually, perfectly so.

This is not a place where some people are humans and some people are non-humans.

That is always true.

It’s especially true when I’m at lunch.

People may be wrong, stupid, evil. They’re not animals.

You’re in my house.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:26 pm Anonymous:

Ann said,
So you claim. You sound like a hater.

- It would be better to “feel the pain” of those in NEW ORLEANS, and then go find an intern, ehh Ann!

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:27 pm Mike T.:

The authorities in San Diego took appropriate actions ASAP; that is the biggest difference to Katrina/New Orleans. Of course, there was a fire almost this big four years ago, and much was learned from the mistakes that were made then.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:28 pm Roger:

Bill Bradley: touche and my apologies for an over the top characterization.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:29 pm Mike T.:

A lot of these homes are built in areas that are very high risk for these fires.

This is a dry climate; the winter rains grow the grass, and it always dries out in the summer. And periodically the Santa Ana winds come through. That creates the “perfect storm” situation. This is going to happen every year to some degree.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:32 pm Mike T.:

A lot of these homes are built in areas that are very high risk for these fires.

This is a dry climate; the winter rains grow the grass, and it always dries out in the summer. And periodically the Santa Ana winds come through. That creates the “perfect storm” situation. This is going to happen every year to some degree.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:32 pm Ann:

I think you are a liar and a hater, Roger. You start out here attacking black “savages” rationalizing for an incompetent gang even Bush had to admit blew it. Go back to your rock.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:33 pm Walker1940:

Try turning off the power for 30 miles around the fires and smoke so thick nothing flies then see how well its managed.
I really think New Orleans response compared to Californias is a poor example to use. It would have to be a major earthquake (8.5) to be a reasonable comparison to southern Louisiana. Of course, Louisianas response to the hurricanes was about as bad as you can get.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:34 pm libby:

People love to forget a few things about Katrina:

1) Bush begged Blanco to declare a state of emergency before the storm. She refused. Nagin did not use his resources. The provence in emergencies is “local, then state, then fed government”. In Katrina all did poorly, but the errors began way before the levees broke, and they began on the state and local level.

2) The press was incredibly willing to believe horror stories about baby rapes and roving gangs and did a poor job of correcting themselves.

3) Hurricane Charlie (Republican Gov) was handled well. Mississippi (Republican Gov) handled Katrina well. Collyfornia. Republican Gov.

Hell, I can see all that plainly and I’m not even a Republican.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:38 pm carole w:

Jrm and all,
Appreciate all comments. I am learning something today…so today is a good day.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:39 pm jblog:

Note one other phenomenon in this disaster — civil obedience.

The local citzenry has moved out of the danger area in an orderly fashion.

No rioting. No looting. No rape. No indisriminate shooting. No murder.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:42 pm Paul:

The original question is the most critical: Why do these fires keep recurring?

See John McPhee’s “The Control of Nature,” and its last section. The combination of terrain, meteorological conditions, unique soils, and extraordinarily high BTU content of the brush and other foliage in So Cal makes for a potent and lethal combination. It burns because it always has.

Blaming Bush or the Sierra Club or any other human element is silly. On a micro-scale perhaps some clear-cutting near some residential areas might have spared homes here and there. But if people wish to build where fires rage every 10-50 years, and have done so forever, they are playing roulette.

And just wait til the winter, when debris flows (commonly called “mud slides”) will likely happen in the watersheds denuded of brush. But like the fires, these have always happened.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:43 pm Bill Bradley:

BTW, all this stuff is forwarded to my blackberry.

I learned last year, when left-wing hyperpartisans tried to swarm the site, to have a quick trigger..

And, incidentally, while I was born at night, it wasn’t last night.

Even people I know who worked in the Bush White House acknowledge that they made huge mistakes on Hurricane Katrina.

You don’t wait around for three days to be asked when a giant hurricane is bearing down on a world famous city. That’s just mind-blowingly incompetent.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:44 pm Bill Bradley:

BTW, all this stuff is forwarded to my blackberry.

I learned last year, when left-wing hyperpartisans tried to swarm the site, to have a quick trigger..

And, incidentally, while I was born at night, it wasn’t last night.

Even people I know who worked in the Bush White House acknowledge that they made huge mistakes on Hurricane Katrina.

You don’t wait around for three days to be asked when a giant hurricane is bearing down on a world famous city. That’s just mind-blowingly incompetent.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:44 pm Roger:

Ann: think as you will. Please review my post–did the word “black” ever appear? Did you know that when the evacuation buses reached Sebastian County, Arkansas, (Ft Chaffee) several drivers had abandoned their buses en route because of internal conditions on those buses? did you know that on rest stops some gangs on those buses blocked the entrance to rest rooms and extorted money from riders to use the restrooms? do you know how much contraband was confiscated when the initial evacuees reached Ft Chaffee? Check with Sebastian County Emergency Management Office, for the details.

A word of advice for you Ann: the rule in emergency management is that every citizen should be prepared to fend for themselves for at least 72 hours before they can expect help. You may not like that, but that’s the way it is, and you better plan for it. It may save your life and that of your family, because emergency managment and first responders, unlike the cavalry, are often volunteers, and cannot ride to your rescue when you fail to take responsiblity for your self.

And Ann: I really dont care if you think I am a liar–only one of us knows the truth–and it isnt you.
I have given you some advice that will save your life and that of your family. Ignore it at your peril.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:45 pm Greg:

New Orleans is not a wreck today as a result of the Bush crowd. Perhaps, the only thing for which the Feds can be blamed is the red tape in getting the recovery working. The bureaucracy is designed to prevent fraud but it also prevents action. Some of it is absurd like the need to do historic analyses on just about every effort. One was done on a shed that was left over from a subdivision development 40 years ago.

New Orleans and the state is still plagued by marginal leadership at best and incompetent corruption at worst.

In addition, the reality of the marketplace (one that will be felt in California) has made New Orleans and the area a much more expensive place than in the past, discouraging the recovery. The lack of health care in the city and the out of control murder rate are hardly a result of Federal inaction or disdain.

To me the real, long term villain is the tendency to insulate people from their own bad decisions. With cheap flood insurance, many Orleanians are making the same mistakes they made in the past in where and how they are rebuilding.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:45 pm Bill Bradley:

Greg, does that mean that you oppose governmental assistance to Californians who have assumed the risk of living in well-established fire zones?

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:48 pm libby:

Bill wrote: You don’t wait around for three days to be asked when a giant hurricane is bearing down on a world famous city. That’s just mind-blowingly incompetent.

True, sir, but Blanco herself said that Bush asked her to declare a state of emergency and to call the Nat’l Guard before the storm hit (and yes, the levees broke after NOLA dodged the bullet). Both declaring the emergency and calling out the NG’s was Blanco’s job and she dithered. I’m no Bush apologist - they made plenty of mistakes, too - but let’s consider what would have been the reaction had Bush arrogantly ignored the protocols and overstepped into Blanco’s domain. We’d be saying he was dissing her leadership because she was a Dem and a woman. He had no “win” in that situation, so he stayed within protocol.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:50 pm Mark Amerman:

Blaming Katrina on Bush, and only on Bush, is profoundly disingenuous.
Disaster response everywhere should be first and foremost local. Look at
other natural disasters in the U.S., that’s the way it works. The dramatic
failure of local resource in New Orleans is unprecedented in the United States.
The New Orleans city government failed spectacularly; the Louisiana
state government failed spectacularly. FEMA was not intended to
be a frontline response unit — it’s more about rebuilding in the
weeks and months after a disaster.

Even if FEMA were intended to be a frontline emergency response program,
it followed it’s well-established dictates. It followed the procedures
and programs that this federal agency had laid out over many years. If
there’s a governmental failure here the failure is more fundamental than
any one administration.

FEMA’s failure is of the same sort that every federal agency experiences,
which if we want to explore the forbidden truth, is quite evident in every
single one.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:53 pm Bill Bradley:

President Bush. A man of established protocol.

No, I don’t recognize that. Sorry …

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:55 pm libby:

President Bush. A man of established protocol. No, I don’t recognize that. Sorry …
Well, then, screw me - I guess it really WAS all his fault!

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:56 pm Bill Bradley:

I am quite sure I didn’t say that.

Frankly, it strikes me as fairly silly to try to rationalize away a massive failure that even the president now acknowledges. He did, after all, fire his FEMA head for his performance in Katrina.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:58 pm Bill Bradley:

I am quite sure I didn’t say that.

Frankly, it strikes me as fairly silly to try to rationalize away a massive failure that even the president now acknowledges. He did, after all, fire his FEMA head for his performance in Katrina.

Oct 24, 2007 - 1:58 pm Roger:

Mark Amerman has it exactly right, and clearly understands how emergency management works. There are four phases to emergency managment: mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery. The feds are involved in mitigation by supplying grants to mititage potential problems before they occur. They are involved in the recovery phase which happens after the disaster occurs. Locals (county and state) are involved in preparedness (plans and exercises) and most important, response.

As to Bill’s point: the point that you had prior warning still makes it impossible to forward station supplies–you simply don’t know where the hurricane is going after it makes landfall and you dont put your emergency supplies in the path of a disaster. You have to station them outside and then bring them in–but only after you recon the striken area to find out where you can put them–that process takes at least 24 hours.

The prescriptions roll easily off uninformed tongues–the reality is much different. And much messier.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:00 pm Brasky:

“Blaming Bush or the Sierra Club or any other human element is silly.”

Paul is making a lot of sense to me today and he obviously understands the lay of the land in SoCal much more than most of the people posting today. Go Paul!

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:04 pm Bill Bradley:

Right. But it took a lot longer than 24 hours. As you must know.

Face the political reality.

There are incompetent Democrats.

And there are incompetent Republicans.

Both were on global display with Hurricane Katrina.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:05 pm libby:

I’m not trying to rationalize a defense of the president. I’m just saying, there was enormous blame to go all around with Katrina, and it should rightly begin at the state and local level, and I think it should be noted (as it never is) that much of the Katrina story is still fuzzy because the press, who were very fast to jump on stories of monstrous behavior by the people of NOLA (imho, displaying a sad willingness to accept racial stereotypes) and have never adequately gone back and ennumerated all they got wrong. Katrina is a subject so infused with both partisan spin and media distortion that it is very difficult to discuss it without people immediately falling back on easier - more accepted - assumptions and fingerpointing. That’s alls I’m saying, sir!

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:05 pm Bill Bradley:

… Incidentally, I was replying to Roger’s attempt to blame the fiasco of New Orleans strictly on the local Democrats.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:06 pm libby:

And I’m sorry I said it in such a ragtag, run-on sentence!

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:08 pm Bill Bradley:

Okay, libby, I get it.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:08 pm libby:

… Incidentally, I was replying to Roger’s attempt to blame the fiasco of New Orleans strictly on the local Democrats.

Ha! Not the first time I got caught in crosstalk and thought it was all about me and my pithy asides!

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:09 pm libby:

… Incidentally, I was replying to Roger’s attempt to blame the fiasco of New Orleans strictly on the local Democrats.

Ha! Not the first time I got caught in crosstalk and thought it was all about me and my pithy asides!

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:09 pm Brasky:

If anyone writes a retrospective on the aftermath of the last San Diego fire and how it impacted the response to the current fires, please post it here. I’m interested in hearing more about what carole w is saying about the local tax measure that failed.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:10 pm Roger:

Bill: the NO and LA happened to be under democratic administrations. It isnt a party thing–its a competence thing. And I have no doubts that if a republican administration were in charge in NOLA they would have handled it as badly. Its a function of that particular civic culture.

Of course Bush fired Brownie–that was politics. FEMA, however, did exactly what it was supposed to do and had done in the past. FEMA is not usually involved until recovery operations start and then they are charged with providing funding and support to locals–not picking up the pieces.

Katrina changed all that and now Congress, for better or for worse, has given FEMA a new mandate (dumb, in my opinion, but they, as usual, react to the last crisis) to be more involved in response. All that will do is screw up the locals, who, NOLA notwithstanding, do a pretty damn good job.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:15 pm Suzy:

The reason we can’t afford a fire department in San Diego is because it cost us $billions a year to educate, jail and give free health care to illegal aliens.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:15 pm Gomez Addams:

Notice how the vast majority of houses that you see burning out there have fairly dense vegetation right next to the building.

I am torn between deep sympathy and outright scorn- it’s not like these fires happen every hundred years- they happen every year. Leaving that amount of brush next to your house is almost like leaving pails of gasoline.

How much of destruction would stop with a couple of ordinances prohibiting that kind of vegetation?

Am I being unfair?

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:18 pm Tim W:

The MSM misinformation campaign on Katrina was very impressive. Pretty much their entire story line turned out to be false (see popular mechanics artice above) yet they think it was their finest hour. Whenever race is involved, its all about the narrative regardless of the facts. We saw the same crap in the Duke rape case and now in the Jena 6 case.

Its not really fair to compare a hurricane and flood to a fire but the differences in management at the state level is noteworthy. Its no coincedence that Blanco’s approval ratings were so bad that she did not even run for reelection.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:19 pm Capitol Boy:

What a load! Most of that is paid by the state and federal governments. Meanwhile, you live off the cheap labor.

>Suzy :
The reason we can’t afford a fire department in San Diego is because it cost us $billions a year to educate, jail and give free health care to illegal aliens.
Oct 24, 2007 02:15 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:22 pm rarango:

Enough for me on this blog. I wish the good citizens of southern california the best of luck in confronting this terrible event.

For all: whatever you think about Bush, or FEMA, NOLA, do yourself a favor: plan to be on your own for at least 72 hours–food, water, medicines, and pet care if you have them–if you think you will be rescued or taken care of prior to that, it will be blind luck. You need to be responsible for your own survival. Check with your local emergency management office. They have checklists.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:23 pm Capitol Boy:

Popular Mechanics article? Are you kidding?

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:23 pm Capitol Boy:

Popular Mechanics article? Are you kidding?

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:23 pm Bill Bradley:

Roger, my point is that it was obvious in advance that New Orleans would be absolutely devastated by Hurricane Katrina.

I actually settled in for the event with a horrible thrill about what was about to happen. Complete with Cajun food!

A president who chooses to intervene around the world on a new doctrine of preemption — but who doesn’t do the same with a major American city — well, enough said.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:29 pm tree hugging sister:

“…but who doesn’t do the same with a major American city…”

A very dangerous sentiment, that.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:30 pm carole w:

Brasky,
I believe it was Dana that had more accurate information on a tax to expand fire operations in San Diego county.
We in Big Bear Lake have had a hospital tax, a road tax, a swimming pool property tax…all failed. I am thinking the next tax should be a safety tax. Hopefully, this one will pass. We really have a great system of fire and a local sheriff’s office. It just needs to be larger and have the latest safety gizmo’s.
The vegetation ordinance I am referring to in my prior posts is in the planning stages. I would do anything to help those stages along.
I apologize for the spelling and grammar errors…I am guilty of blogging, watching the smoke and taking golf swings simultaneously:)

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:31 pm Brasky:

Bill — you’ve tapped into something here, because you’re getting a lot of new posters. I hope your web traffic is up accordingly.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:32 pm tree hugging sister:

(Dang. Could someone release my first comment so I don’t look the complete dweeb here?)(PLEASE.)

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:33 pm johnmc:

Well there is a lot different with this disaster:

* Katrina was two disasters in one — Hurricane with an induced flood.

* Katrina blasted NO in 18 hrs. The wildfires have been burning for days. The pace is entirely different.

* CA the people affected were mobile, able and capable. Same with NO, but there was a fraction of the population that was incapable of getting out and no provisions were considered to do so.

* CA has a Governor and City leader who have been engaged from the start. Unlike Nagin who bugged out at the first opportunity.

* CA fortunately the emergency services are outside of the affected areas. That is a critical factor. In NO the planned emergency services were destroyed within the affected area. Not only that but the city of NO was only approachable by air for the first 24hrs after the disaster.

CA has done fairly right in its mobilization. But I would not put too much stock in drawing inferences between the two events. A more appropriate comparison might be between NO and the SF earthquake of the late 90’s.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:37 pm libby:

Well…I think in the grand scheme of things we don’t want presidents usurping Governors - that’s not a precedent I could support. But that’s enough for me.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:41 pm libby:

Well…I think in the grand scheme of things we don’t want presidents usurping Governors - that’s not a precedent I could support. But that’s enough for me.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:41 pm carole w:

Gomez Adams:
I did recently read an article from the associated press: evidence from the Tahoe fires indicated, in areas of obvious brush clearance the fire personnel were able to protect the structures with a more favorable outcome.
Yours,
Morticia

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:46 pm Bill Bradley:

Folks, I really didn’t expect to be hit on a busy day with defenses of the Bush Administration performance on Hurricane Katrina.

A few items of interest in that regard:

Hours after the hurricane’s landfall, FEMA head Michael Brown made his first request for Homeland Security rescue workers.

They were to be deployed to the disaster area only after two days of training.

He told departments outside the area not to send help without a direct appeal from state or local governments.

In a very famous incident, Brown told CNN that he didn’t know that local officials had housed thousands of evacuees in the convention center and Superdome. Where they’d run out of food. The media had been reporting that for a day by that point.

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:53 pm Jeff:

The Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor completely failed to do their jobs in the lead up and immediate aftermath of Katrina … People that should have and could have been evacuated hours if not days in advance were left to wait it out by the LOCAL authorities …

Why did Florida and Miss not seem to have problems with the exact same Federal response ? Because they did their jobs …

Remember the 200 dead in the Dome ? Remember the rapes and armed gangs in the Dome ? Remember all the other outright falsehoods reported by the MSM ?

BDS

Oct 24, 2007 - 2:55 pm Bill Bradley:

Jeff, or should I say, dorsai, and I do catch the reference, you’re trying to flip Katrina into an anti-Democrat thing. As the saying goes, lotsa luck.

Obviously the local Democratic leadership was incompetent.

And obviously the Bush Administration screwed up. As my friends who worked in the White House acknowledge.

That’s not so hard, is it?

Oh, the other reason why Florida and Mississippi had an easier time of it.

They didn’t get the brunt of the hurricane.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:02 pm Tim W:

Capital boy…did you even read the article? It provides a lot of context that the MSM left out and corrected many of the factual errors. Bottom line is that Katrina was a failure in leadership at all levels; local, state & federal. The problem with the MSM coverage was they ignored the local and state failures and focused entirly on the federal to advance their obvious partisian agenda. It worked quite well I might add.

By the way, education, health care and jails are a major chunk of local budgets with almost no federal assistance unless its a federal facility. State helps in some instances but its mostly a local deal.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:04 pm Capitol Boy:

Really? In San Diego? You read it in Popular Mechanics, I bet.

What state do you live in?

Really? In San Diego? You read it in Popular Mechanics, I bet.

What state do you live in?

< By the way, education, health care and jails are a major chunk of local budgets with almost no federal assistance unless its a federal facility. State helps in some instances but its mostly a local deal.
Oct 24, 2007 03:04 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:11 pm Hap Hazard:

Popular Mechanics article? Are you kidding? — Actually, I subscribe to that magazine as well, and they did a very good and very objective assessment of current and future scenarios in NOLA, and also more than a little bit of objective, non-agenda driven reporting on Katrina and Rita. By the way, their basic conclusion corresponds with Mr. B’s:
“Face the political reality.There are incompetent Democrats. And there are incompetent Republicans.Both were on global display with Hurricane Katrina.”

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:12 pm tree hugging sister:

“They didn’t get the brunt of the hurricane.”

Are you joking? Surely you are. Have you even driven on US 90? My God, they were blown ~ BLOWN ~ off the map from Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian, and Gulfport to Biloxi. Whatever points you try to score on the administration, deserved or otherwise, don’t you DARE try to minimalize the enormity of the destruction AT LANDFALL ~ FORTY FEET of WATER ~ that occurred in MS. New Orleans suffered the AFTERMATH ~ the flooding AFTERWARDS.

Once it brushed over the lower tip of Louisiana (maybe you ought to check THOSE pictures, too) Mississippi BORE the BRUNT.

I’m gobschmacked.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:13 pm tree hugging sister:

“They didn’t get the brunt of the hurricane.”

Are you joking? Surely you are. Have you even driven on US 90? My God, they were blown ~ BLOWN ~ off the map from Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian, and Gulfport to Biloxi. Whatever points you try to score on the administration, deserved or otherwise, don’t you DARE try to minimalize the enormity of the destruction AT LANDFALL ~ FORTY FEET of WATER ~ that occurred in MS. New Orleans suffered the AFTERMATH ~ the flooding AFTERWARDS.

Once it brushed over the lower tip of Louisiana (maybe you ought to check THOSE pictures, too) Mississippi BORE the BRUNT.

I’m gobschmacked.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:13 pm Bakersfield Boy:

Ann said:

“Oh, God, another righty wingnut with its bile.”

“I think you are a liar and a hater, Roger. You start out here attacking black “savages” rationalizing for an incompetent gang even Bush had to admit blew it. Go back to your rock.”

Wow…I pray for a soul as dark as hers.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:14 pm rjschwarz:

Two of the fires (Malibu canyon, Witch creek) are thought to have been caused by powerlines knocked down by the winds.

Would it really be that difficult to design the system so that when the power line breaks the power is shut off at the nearest transformer?

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:14 pm Bill Bradley:

Well, “tree hugging sister,” and isn’t this turning into a waste of my time, I’ve not only seen pictures, I’ve run video of the hurricane hitting Gulfport, Mississippi right here on NWN.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:18 pm Hap Hazard:

why Florida and Mississippi had an easier time of it. They didn’t get the brunt of the hurricane — Very good point, and in addition,the devastation there was also exacerbated by the fact that the elevation of NOLA is below sea level, and it is also not surrounded by levees that were made to keep out the nearby “sea”.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:20 pm Brasky:

Meanwhile, there are these fires…

From the LA Times:

“The greatest hope came from weather reports predicting the most extreme Santa Ana winds — peaking at 60 to 80 mph in recent days — would largely disappear. By Thursday, temperatures were expected to drop as much as 15 degrees in some places, and the severely dry humidity, which also fueled the fires, should ease.”

Once the wind dies down, the firefighters will be able to go on the offensive.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:23 pm Ann:

Better you pray for your own soul, B. Boy. You’re the one holding hands with a man who divides people into humans and “savages.”

That isn’t very Christian of you, is it? lol

Bakersfield Boy :

Ann said:

“Oh, God, another righty wingnut with its bile.”

“I think you are a liar and a hater, Roger. You start out here attacking black “savages” rationalizing for an incompetent gang even Bush had to admit blew it. Go back to your rock.”

Wow…I pray for a soul as dark as hers.

Oct 24, 2007 03:14 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:24 pm Ann:

Better you pray for your own soul, B. Boy. You’re the one holding hands with a man who divides people into humans and “savages.”

That isn’t very Christian of you, is it? lol

Bakersfield Boy :
Ann said:
“Oh, God, another righty wingnut with its bile.”
“I think you are a liar and a hater, Roger. You start out here attacking black “savages” rationalizing for an incompetent gang even Bush had to admit blew it. Go back to your rock.”
Wow…I pray for a soul as dark as hers.
Oct 24, 2007 03:14 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:24 pm Brasky:

Hap nailed it. When the levees failed, New Orleans filled like a bathtub. Few cities in America are built at the bottom of a bowl, surrounded by water. Except, of course, Sacramento. Gulp.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:27 pm Bakersfield Boy:

Ann said:
Better you pray for your own soul, B. Boy. You’re the one holding hands with a man who divides people into humans and “savages.”

That isn’t very Christian of you, is it? lol

Who said I was holding his hand? Who said I am a Christian? I just thought your personal attack was a tad…outlandish and rude.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:29 pm Capitol Boy:

Bill, praising Bush for getting better on something isn’t enough for his diehard supporters. They think he’s never messed up.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:32 pm Capitol Boy:

You didn’t even mention that Saint George cared so frikkin much about disaster management he appointed a total political hack who faked his resume to head up disaster management. Heheh. Guess I do that.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:35 pm Thomas Armstrong:

Anyone who writes that San Diego County does not have its own fire department, as Ann did, is just being silly and ignorant. I live here in Lakeside, part of the unincorporated area of San Diego County. Very much surrounded by fire and sweating this one, just as we did four years ago. We have our own Lakeside Fire Depatment, bravely fighting this thing.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:39 pm tree hugging sister:

Well, “Mr. Bradley”, I’d then have to suppose our disagreement is semantics: depends on what your definition of “brunt” is. I read it in the M-W sense: the principal force, shock, or stress. In effect the utter destruction wrought by the storm surge/hurricane winds immediately. New Orleans has born the greater cost as an end result, which is, indeed, the second M-W definition.

“…and isn’t this turning into a waste of my time…”

How awful for you. I stand chastised and haven’t called anyone a savage or worn my Bush button like some battling partisans above. Apologies.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:39 pm tree hugging sister:

Well, “Mr. Bradley”, I’d then have to suppose our disagreement is semantics: depends on what your definition of “brunt” is. I read it in the M-W sense: the principal force, shock, or stress. In effect the utter destruction wrought by the storm surge/hurricane winds immediately. New Orleans has born the greater cost as an end result, which is, indeed, the second M-W definition.

“…and isn’t this turning into a waste of my time…”

How awful for you. I stand chastised and haven’t called anyone a savage or worn my Bush button like some battling partisans above. Apologies.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:39 pm Bill Bradley:

Like I said, I was born at night. But it wasn’t last night.

Your point was that Mississippi had a GOP governor and Louisiana had a DEM governor.

To make that point, you had to ignore that New Orleans suffered by far the most devastation from Hurricane Katrina.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:42 pm Capitol Boy:

Sorry, doubting Thomas.

San Diego County does not have a fire department.

That’s a fact.

Don’t be truthy.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:46 pm Auros:

Re: Katrina, there was a documentary a year or so before Katrina — a National Geographic Special, I think? — about the problems with New Orleans’ system of levies, and the potential scale of disaster if it were hit by a Cat V. There were also a few days of worry in the hurricane season the year before Katrina, when a major hurricane took a near-miss path.

That’s why the “no one could’ve expected this!” talk, in the first few days after the storm, was so appalling. Anyone who was not an ignoramus could’ve expected it.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:47 pm Bill Bradley:

… Incidentally, “tree hugging sister” with the anti-Al Gore blog, my name is a real name. It doesn’t go inside quotation marks.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:49 pm Mike Anderson:

Dear Ann-

This has been a very well managed thread by Bill and you seem to be the one a**hole who wants to take it to another, much lower, level. I just finished reading all 100+ comments and yours stand out for their stupidity. Be quiet, take your meds and let rational people talk. Thanks again Bill for a thoughtful post.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:51 pm Brasky:

Auros - thanks for joining the party!

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:52 pm Ann:

I’m sorry Mike Anderson if I insulted your racist friend Roger who divides people into humans and savages.

Please forgive me. lol

PS: San Diego County doesn’t have a fire department. You can look it up. Now who is “silly and ignorant?”

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:55 pm Ann:

I’m sorry Mike Anderson if I insulted your racist friend Roger who divides people into humans and savages.

Please forgive me. lol

PS: San Diego County doesn’t have a fire department. You can look it up. Now who is “silly and ignorant?”

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:55 pm libby:

Actually, if you really want to nitpick NOLA dodged a bullet in Katrina. The hurricane itself didn’t do the damage. The levees failing (even though lots of fed money had been sent to NOLA for their upkeep and improvement over the years) is what did in New Orleans.

But let’s talk about the fire. Is it arson? My mom was wondering two days ago if this was actually a terrorist act.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:56 pm Bill Bradley:

Yes, libby, I think we can call that nitpicking around Hurricane Katrina.
Did terrorism cause the Southern California fires?

You know, I’ve been waiting for that suggestion.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:58 pm tree hugging sister:

I was tweaking you. Cheeky, eh? Apologies again. Especially since you haven’t “fake name” anyone else you’ve answered with a nom de plume. I took exception.

An ANTI-GORE blog?! Oh good Lord no, we’re not as one note as that! Please. We skewer everyone ~ it’s a point of honor not to toe a political line. Gore just makes better faces.

Oct 24, 2007 - 3:59 pm libby:

Well, my mom is very smart!

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:00 pm Brasky:

“Did terrorism cause the Southern California fires?

You know, I’ve been waiting for that suggestion.”

It never occured to me that people would be crazy enough to think that. I would have lost that bet.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:03 pm libby:

Actually, she’s so smart she seems to have (in the privacy of her kitchen) figured it out before the FBI, if CBS is to be believed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/24/national/main3401265.shtml

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:03 pm Bill Bradley:

Of course, if it were terrorism, Arnold could deal with it as he did in True Lies.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:05 pm Bill Bradley:

Of course, if it were terrorism, Arnold could deal with it as he did in True Lies.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:05 pm paul:

Several people have noted that a lack of “defensible space” around structures increases the likelihood that they will burn in a fire, and wouldn’t it be smart of there were ordinances of some sort that required defensible space around homes. Very true.

Following the 2003 fires in SoCal, Sierra Club and the Planning and Conservation League sponsored a bill, SB 1369 (Kuehl) to require 100′ of defensible space around homes. That bill passed with bi-partisan support, and has been on the books for nearly three years. See PRC 4291. Defensible space helps a lot, although with the extreme weather conditions in this fire, no reasonable amount of clearance would entirely solve the problem. The other critical pieces are ignition resistant building materials (there are new standards going into effect in January), and better planning of where people build homes. There are some places where you’re just never going to be able to defend a home under these sorts of extreme weather conditions.

As to cutting trees around homes up in the mountains (such as Lake Arrowhead), most of the reluctance to cut trees is based on folks aesthetic desire to live in a wooded area. All the enviros I know have encouraged people to do more clearing, not less. But people are often reluctant to cut the trees and shrubs in their front yard…

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:05 pm libby:

Well, in that case, I would like to be Jamie Lee Curtis, please, and hang off a helicopter. But I’m not stripping without cash down.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:12 pm reliapundit:

I was the first to post on the Katrina/Socal Fire comparison; I did so on Monday, October 22:

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2007/10/california-fire-evacuations-versus.html

CALIFORNIA FIRE EVACUATIONS VERSUS KATRINA EVACUATIONS
BBC:

California has evacuated a quarter of a million people as fierce winds fan wildfires in the Los Angeles region from San Diego up to Santa Barbara.

At least one person has died and thousands of homes are at risk in seven counties where fires have scorched some 200,000 acres (81,000 hectares).

* THESE PEOPLE HAD LESS NOTICE THAN THE PEOPLE IN NEW ORLEANS BEFORE KATRINA. YET THEY WERE SUCCESSFULLY EVACUATED.

* OBVIOUSLY, THE GOVERNMENT IN CALIFORNIA IS DOING ITS JOB WELL.

* IF THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS AND THE STATE OF LOUISIANA HAD DONE AS WELL; THE LEVEE FAILURE WHICH FOLLOWED HURRICANE KATRINA WOULD NOT HAVE HAD AS BAD AN EFFECT.

WHY HAS CALIFORNIA DONE BETTER? IT’S GOVERNMENT IS LESS CORRUPT, AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN REGIONS BESIEGED BY THE FLAMES ARE MIDDLE CLASS - NOT UNDERCLASS PEOPLE ENSLAVED TO A CULTURE OF DEPENDENCY.

I PRAY GOVERNOR BOBBY JINDAL CAN CLEAN LOUISIANA UP. THE FUTURE OF HIS STATE DEPENDS ON IT.

And I pray for all the people of California.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:12 pm Brasky:

fascinating NOAA document, “A History of Significant Weather Events in Southern California”:

1961: “Fire in Topanga Canyon. 103 injured firemen, $100 million economic losses including 484 buildings (mostly residential) and 6,090 acres destroyed.”

1970: “The Laguna Fire. 8 killed, 400 homes destroyed, 185,000 acres burned”

Santa Ana winds were cited in both incidents and, oddly enough, not terrorists.

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/sgx/document/weatherhistory.pdf

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:17 pm libby:

Hey Brasky, I’m not saying it was terrorism. Mom and the FBI are just wondering. But you make an excellent point with that citation. Does that mean we can stop blaming global warming for the fires, since they happen regularly and randomly? I wouldn’t mind not being able to blame something on Global Warming. We can all agree to still blame Bush, though.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:20 pm mikefina:

There is something about fire that makes an evacuation order seem emminently (and imminently) reasonable. Folks in NOLA should have evacuated, but having survived hurricanes in the past, they didn’t seem to have the same urgency. Failure was result of local governments not having the ability and credibility to force evacuation, and protect property in the vacuum that followed.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:21 pm wilbur:

“UNDERCLASS PEOPLE ENSLAVED TO A CULTURE OF DEPENDENCY.”

I’m sorry, but that still smacks faintly of “code language.”

Is it perhaps relevant that many poor people (in both locations) can’t afford cars, and NOLA’s public transportation system shut down completely while SoCal’s continues to function just fine?

Is that “cultural” or simply “reality?”

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:22 pm wilbur:

“UNDERCLASS PEOPLE ENSLAVED TO A CULTURE OF DEPENDENCY.”

I’m sorry, but that still smacks faintly of “code language.”

Is it perhaps relevant that many poor people (in both locations) can’t afford cars, and NOLA’s public transportation system shut down completely while SoCal’s continues to function just fine?

Is that “cultural” or simply “reality?”

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:22 pm Jim:

The difference in responses to Katrina and the California fires cannot be attributed to changes at FEMA.
Emergency reponses are the responsibility of local and state agencies first. It is the State of California that should be given credit here.
FEMA is a very small agency, something like 2500 people in total. Its function is to support not replace local and state agencies.
California is responding well to the fires because is utilizes the Incident Command System. A system used to manage resources such as personnel, equipment, and supplies at the scene of an emergency. That definition is from the Red Cross First Responder textbook.
ICS was first developed by fire departments in California. It is now used statewide for police, fire, search and rescue (SAR) emergencies.
Briefly, the first person on the scene is the Incident Commander. As more trained people arrive, they will take on additional preset roles depending on their experience and skills.
For example, a park ranger may be the first on scene of a fire. He is the IC at that point. He will call for assistance and direct citizens in the area to evacuate. He may enlist available citizen volunteers to assist him.
As more official assistance arrives, the initial IC may be replaced by a more senior officer or manager. The initial ranger/IC will then start to function in another preset role such as planning the next step in fighting the fire.
California leads the nation in developing and implementing the ICS. Its statewide usage makes responses to emergencies immediate, smooth, and coordinated in most events. It is backed by mutual aid agreements between various agencies, most of which are coordinated through the California Office of Emergency Services (OES). It is OES that finds the resources such as a plane to drop fire retardant, the supplier of fire retardant, the fuel needed for the plane, the food for the pilot and crew, and so forth.
The effort of OES will continue through these fires and into the recovery process. With the fires still burning, OES is already marshalling resources for post fire responses such as the insertion of cadaver dogs at the scene to locate the missing after the ground has cooled.
FEMA is supposed to served the same function as California’s OES. It is not the first responder. It is not the rescuer on the scene. It is the coordinator of resources.
Of course, none of this works without money, trained people, available equipment, and supplies ready to roll. California has the resources and the system to use them in place, many other states do not.
Contrast this with Louisiana and New Orleans. No advance planning. No trained personnel available. No stored resources. No suppliers of resources lined up. No coordination of response. No ICS response system in place. No one responsible for anything. The officials of Louisiana and New Orleans took no responsibility before the event, were unprepared for the event everyone knew was coming, and took no responsibility for the easily foreseeable disaster that took place after the storm passed. So, from their “not me” perspective, the events surrounding Katrina had to be the fault of FEMA and President Bush.
FYI: Over 90% of all SAR personnel in the US are volunteers (they like to call us “unpaid professionals”) who pay for their own training, equipment, transportation, and so forth.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:30 pm Mike T:

There is suspicion about some of the fires being arson.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:36 pm Bill Bradley:

You all do know that there is an ongoing news analysis thread on the front page of NWN, right?

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:38 pm wilbur:

Yeah, but Brasky tipped us that all the fun was here in the back room….

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:39 pm Bill Bradley:

Jim, no 600-word posts in my comments section. They’re too long for people to read and discourage people from seeing the rest of the Forum.

Incidentally, the concerted spin that the Bush Administration is blameless for the fiasco of Hurricane Katrina is misguided.

>Jim :
The difference in responses to Katrina and the California fires cannot be attributed to changes at FEMA.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:41 pm DWPittelli:

“After the debacle of Hurricane Katrina, the Bush Administration seems to have learned some lessons. The administration has quickly agreed to all the requests so far from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger…”

And which of the Louisiana Governor’s Katrina-related requests were refused by the Bush Administration?

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:43 pm wilbur:

Why do I get the feeling a talking points memo is swirling around somewhere?

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:45 pm wilbur:

Why do I get the feeling a talking points memo is swirling around somewhere?

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:45 pm Bill Bradley:

The concerted spin that the Bush Administration is blameless for the fiasco of Hurricane Katrina is misguided.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:46 pm Bill Bradley:

Ya think?
>wilbur :
Why do I get the feeling a talking points memo is swirling around somewhere?
Oct 24, 2007 04:45 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:47 pm Capitol Boy:

I think Bill’s point is that Bush got off his ass on this crisis after having his ass handed to him after Katrina.

That and the fear of having Arnold Schwarzenegger blast him on TV around the world. Heheh.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:49 pm Bill Bradley:

It’s deeply ingrained in the human psyche that fire is more threatening than water.

The failure of government in Katrina was at all levels — local, state, and federal.

>mikefina :
There is something about fire that makes an evacuation order seem emminently (and imminently) reasonable. Folks in NOLA should have evacuated, but having survived hurricanes in the past, they didn’t seem to have the same urgency. Failure was result of local governments not having the ability and credibility to force evacuation, and protect property in the vacuum that followed.
Oct 24, 2007 04:21 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:54 pm Len:

I didn’t see this much fervor for Bush at the California Republican Convention.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:57 pm Ross:

Most of San Diego County is rural and unimproved. It is bigger than both Rhode Island and Delaware and almost as big as Connecticut. Most of the settled areas have their own fire departments. True some are volunteer, which is typical of many rural communities. That the whole county doesn’t have a fire department isn’t unusual, in fact I would bet that the vast majority of counties in the US don’t have fire departments. The lack of fire fighting equipment or personnel had nothing to do with the scope of these fires, it had almost everything to do with 60-70 MPH winds and single digit humidities.

Oct 24, 2007 - 4:58 pm Capitol Boy:

That is completely wrong.

Little volunteer fire departments can’t possibly cope with the regular fire danger that exists in San Diego County.

There have been many big fires in San Diego County, which is not at all like New England.

What state do YOU live in?

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:01 pm Capitol Boy:

That is completely wrong.

Little volunteer fire departments can’t possibly cope with the regular fire danger that exists in San Diego County.

There have been many big fires in San Diego County, which is not at all like New England.

What state do YOU live in?

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:01 pm Capitol Boy:

It’s bad enough to put up with witless right-wing excuses inside California.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:01 pm carole w:

Paul,
Good points,well noted. I actually love the Sierra Club. I am just throwing out some comments today as I sit here typing, with my face wrapped in a wet bandanna. Yes, the wind changed directions.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:13 pm Ann:

First they say there is a San Diego County fire department. And I’m “stupid and igorant” for saying there isn’t. Then they say it doesn’t matter there’s no San Diego County fire department. lol

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:13 pm Hap Hazard:

Capitol Boy - Bill mentioned your point here in this post on NWN today, and an article in the WSJ also detailed the lack of a coordinated agency for the county. A local professor was quoted as saying that the county, outside San Diego’s city limits, is a “hodgepodge” of operations that range from relatively well funded to what he calls “bake sale-funded departments.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:17 pm Purblind:

Why do these fires keep re-occuring?

Santa Ana winds have whipped fires into firestorms here for centuries and more, just as earthquakes have moved the earth here, San Francisco, Japan, and countless other areas around the world, for centuries and more. Should we level San Fran and backfill New Orleans? Relocate the Japanese? Oh by the way, hurricanes have hit the gulf coast and East coast for centuries, tornados have hit the central plains for centuries, typhoons have hit Southeast Asia, monsoons have hit Asia minor. Volcanoes have erupted many times near population centers worldwide, blizzards have buried entire nations, floods have ravaged, drought has starved entire continents. Should we not live in any of those places? Relocate them all? It’s a silly question you ask.. Problems happen, they are everywhere. How you deal with them is the difference, no matter what your politics. With these fires, a competent SD mayor and a Governor who stayed on top of it all were a good start to a bad situation, unlike New Orleans. That’s how it’s supposed to work. Cities and states manage their own problems, and what they need help with they ask for from the Feds. This isn’t a statist nanny society of the pathetically and pathologically needy, adminstrated by the President and Congress. Or is it?And those of you who seek to MAKE this fire about your own politics when people are suffering, well, reveal your truly obessive black hearts. If you cared so much as you pretend, you should be out signing up for the Red Cross as a volunteer. But…….NAH.

500+ square miles burned, but only a handful of lives lost. Amazing ain’t it?

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:17 pm Bill Bradley:

Now that would be an impolite version.

I think some of the posters today don’t know that there’s no love lost between Arnold Schwarzenegger and George W. Bush, though Arnold is a friend of the current prez’s dad.

>Capitol Boy :
I think Bill’s point is that Bush got off his ass on this crisis after having his ass handed to him after Katrina.
That and the fear of having Arnold Schwarzenegger blast him on TV around the world. Heheh.
Oct 24, 2007 04:49 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:18 pm Bill Bradley:

Now that would be an impolite version.

I think some of the posters today don’t know that there’s no love lost between Arnold Schwarzenegger and George W. Bush, though Arnold is a friend of the current prez’s dad.

>Capitol Boy :
I think Bill’s point is that Bush got off his ass on this crisis after having his ass handed to him after Katrina.
That and the fear of having Arnold Schwarzenegger blast him on TV around the world. Heheh.
Oct 24, 2007 04:49 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:18 pm Bill Bradley:

Ross, unlike the other two mega-counties in Southern California — Los Angeles and Orange, which have fared much better — San Diego County does not have a professional fire department. And the city fire department is much smaller than its counterparts.

>Ross :
Most of San Diego County is rural and unimproved. It is bigger than both Rhode Island and Delaware and almost as big as Connecticut. Most of the settled areas have their own fire departments. True some are volunteer, which is typical of many rural communities. That the whole county doesn’t have a fire department isn’t unusual, in fact I would bet that the vast majority of counties in the US don’t have fire departments. The lack of fire fighting equipment or personnel had nothing to do with the scope of these fires, it had almost everything to do with 60-70 MPH winds and single digit humidities.
Oct 24, 2007 04:58 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:20 pm Bill Bradley:

Ross, unlike the other two mega-counties in Southern California — Los Angeles and Orange, which have fared much better — San Diego County does not have a professional fire department. And the city fire department is much smaller than its counterparts.

>Ross :
Most of San Diego County is rural and unimproved. It is bigger than both Rhode Island and Delaware and almost as big as Connecticut. Most of the settled areas have their own fire departments. True some are volunteer, which is typical of many rural communities. That the whole county doesn’t have a fire department isn’t unusual, in fact I would bet that the vast majority of counties in the US don’t have fire departments. The lack of fire fighting equipment or personnel had nothing to do with the scope of these fires, it had almost everything to do with 60-70 MPH winds and single digit humidities.
Oct 24, 2007 04:58 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:20 pm Len:

That’s funny. It sounds like what you’re doing.

Purblind : And those of you who seek to MAKE this fire about your own politics when people are suffering, well, reveal your truly obessive black hearts.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:24 pm wilbur:

The logical extension of that laissez=-faire argument is to not plow any communal resources into San Diego and let the free market resolve this.

Guess we can recall everybody who is there from out of town now, since Purblind et al have declared San Diego a sovereign island unto itself, about which those paying for the disaster relief should not be so impertinent as to inquire into what local self-protection efforts have been made.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:30 pm Ann:

How did I miss this gem? lol

I know, I was being attacked in favor of San Diego County’s great firefighting capability.

libby :
Hey Brasky, I’m not saying it was terrorism. Mom and the FBI are just wondering. But you make an excellent point with that citation. Does that mean we can stop blaming global warming for the fires, since they happen regularly and randomly? I wouldn’t mind not being able to blame something on Global Warming. We can all agree to still blame Bush, though. Oct 24, 2007 04:20 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:36 pm Purblind:

Len: I worked 12 hours today helping victims. What have you done to help? Tell us. Go ahead, laugh. Sleep well, my fellow man.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:38 pm Len:

Purblind, for all you know, I am the Governor. For all I know, you’re just talkin.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:41 pm Bill Bradley:

Of course we can live in a great many places, as we do. By living smart, by looking at what’s coming, and by not repeating the same mistakes. That will cost more in the future.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:45 pm Purblind:

Wilbur, please tell me how I have declared San Diego a “soverign island unto itself”. Point that out for me.

By the way, I’m from Virgina, just here in SoCal temporarily.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:47 pm Purblind:

Len: It’s obvious that I’m talking, and obvious that you are not the Governor. I ask again, what have you done to help, my friend?

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:50 pm Anonymous:

Bill: Living smart in the Southwest might begin with not allowing obsessed enviromentalists to lobby for laws that prevent the peoper maintenance and thinning of forests and desert vegetation, which has contributed profoundly to the fueling of wildfires in recent years.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:54 pm Anonymous:

Bill: Living smart in the Southwest might begin with not allowing obsessed enviromentalists to lobby for laws that prevent the peoper maintenance and thinning of forests and desert vegetation, which has contributed profoundly to the fueling of wildfires in recent years.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:54 pm Bill Bradley:

I agree with that, of course. That’s what I’m getting at in talking about the fuel stock for conflagrations.

Though misguided enviros are not the only folks in that camp.

Oct 24, 2007 - 5:58 pm Purblind:

Bill: I agree, it’s not only the enviro whackers that are in that camp.

BTW, in the interest of honesty, that last “anonymous” post was mine. I typed in my email and “Purblind”, but the post shows as anon. *shrug*

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:04 pm wilbur:

Purblind, I said “Purblind et al.” You rode in here with a blogstorm of strangers pitching a theme of talking points about local control, local responsibility, “this isn’t a nanny state,” and defending San Diego County’s choice to shoot down taxing proposals to provide better fire protection and prevention. Perhaps a Virginia resident just happened by coincidence to wander in here unconnected to the rest of the speaker’s bureau on the same day. But I kind of doubt it.

Thank you for helping in this crisis. Others among us are helping with emergency relief in our own unpublicized ways. The rest will pay for this via their 1040s and 540s. Please spare us the sanctimony.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:07 pm Len:

You don’t know anything about me. Other than me sounding a lot more like Schwarzenegger than you, that is. And I don’t know anything about you other than the ultra right talking points and the claims of doing so much to help people when “liberals,” which I ain’t, don’t.

Purblind :
Len: It’s obvious that I’m talking, and obvious that you are not the Governor. I ask again, what have you done to help, my friend?
Oct 24, 2007 05:50 PM

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:13 pm Purblind::

Wilbur: You basically just said nothing. Sanctimony is a funny word, ain’t it? “Pitching” is too. Vague.

I came here from Virginny, but I have long term ties to SD. You assume.

San Diego squandered a lot of $$$$ in the last 20 years, fire services were among them. Do you know the story? I do. Never too late to make it better, though. And do you argue how well or not well the non-exisitent fire services have done out in the field over the last 3 days? Explain. Be not vague.

Len: Am I ultra-right? Heh. I’m an atheist underemployed Independent. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Dig? Ha, I never used the word “liberal”. Man. You 2-parties-at-war folks are like the Hatfields and McCoys. At least make a decent effort to make a legit point.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:29 pm Jonathan Hemlock:

What a marvelous thing!

The 2004 Republican National Convention reconvened today. On New West Notes. How has this curious feat been accomplished?

One wonders if Bradley’s favorite “Doctor Who” is responsible in some mysterious way.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:31 pm Jonathan Hemlock:

What a marvelous thing!

The 2004 Republican National Convention reconvened today. On New West Notes. How has this curious feat been accomplished?

One wonders if Bradley’s favorite “Doctor Who” is responsible in some mysterious way.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:31 pm Jonathan Hemlock:

Sorry for the double -posting. It’s only that it’s so very exciting to travel through time.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:36 pm Jonathan Hemlock:

Sorry for the double -posting. It’s only that it’s so very exciting to travel through time.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:36 pm Jonathan Hemlock:

Sorry for the double -posting. It’s only that it’s so very exciting to travel through time.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:36 pm carole w:

Purblind,
“Blackheart” What is wrong with having a black heart? This blog is an expression of political opinions. If our leaders read this and pass a law or spend a few bucks here or there…we have truly contributed in a different way?
Ann,
Cheers:)

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:36 pm Ross:

I live in San Diego, Carmel Valley less than a mile from the 5 and 56.

I realize that SD county doesn’t have a fire department for itself. However, we have wildfires almost every week somewhere in the county and they almost never cause much damage and are put out pretty quickly. IMO we could have had 10,000 firefighters on Sunday and Monday and I doubt much could have been done with the winds we had.

You can’t even compare Orange county and LA county to San Diego county. Orange county is much smaller than SD county and not as rural. LA county is pretty urbanized. If you look where the vast majority of these fires burned it was in unpopulated chaparral. What are you supposed to do to put out the fire? There are fire planes and helicopters and they are used to great effect to put out these fires, but they can’t fly when there are winds over 35 MPH, which we had all day on Sunday and most of the day on Monday.

The one thing the county could do to help would be to do more controlled burns during winter and spring to clear out all the fuel that has built up over the years. The problem is that fire is pretty hard to control and ever since a controlled burn got out of control in AZ a few years back (IIRC it was threatening Los Alamos) they are a little gun-shy about starting fires since weather is hard to predict.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:39 pm OregonJon:

It is disappointing to see that you’re making a comparison between the federal government’s response to Katrina to that of their response to the California fires. Just like all politics is local all responses to disasters must be local. By the time the feds can mobilize and arrive it’s far too late, and indeed that’s the case in California. The difference between California and Katrina is that between local responses, at both the individual as well as government levels. Bashing the feds, when it’s impossible for them to be the primary responder to any disaster is simple fodder for the MSM, all the more so with a Republican president.

What’s remarkable about California is what isn’t being reported. To listen or watch the news is to hear and see a disaster in the making, yet no such disaster has occurred. In large part this is because of the skill and dedication of undermanned local fire departments as well as a tribute to citizens own reaction as well as that of local government’s. None of it is attributable to the fed’s response, or lack thereof.

And please, can we just eliminate the word “evacuation” when speaking of these fires? To evacuate is to remove, as those on the beaches of Dunkirk were removed by an armada of largely private vessels. In California few were removed. Almost all, knowing the dangers they faced, left voluntarily. There’s a big difference.

Oct 24, 2007 - 6:55 pm marcus:

Enough with all the Bush apologists, please.

Thank You.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:01 pm Bill Bradley:

Really now, Ross, you keep changing what you are saying. The only thing that is consistent is you don’t want to support having a professional fire department in one of the most fire prone places in America.

Oh, yeah.

Incidentally, I am a third generation Californian. I have been up and down and all across this state many times. Presuming to lecture me about these purportedly vast differences of yours is really not a wise course.

>Ross :
I live in San Diego, Carmel Valley less than a mile from the 5 and 56.
I realize that SD county doesn’t have a fire department for itself. However, we have wildfires almost every week somewhere in the county and they almost never cause much damage and are put out pretty quickly. IMO we could have had 10,000 firefighters on Sunday and Monday and I doubt much could have been done with the winds we had.
You can’t even compare Orange county and LA county to San Diego county.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:18 pm Bill Bradley:

Really now, Ross, you keep changing what you are saying. The only thing that is consistent is you don’t want to support having a professional fire department in one of the most fire prone places in America.

Oh, yeah.

Incidentally, I am a third generation Californian. I have been up and down and all across this state many times. Presuming to lecture me about these purportedly vast differences of yours is really not a wise course.

>Ross :
I live in San Diego, Carmel Valley less than a mile from the 5 and 56.
I realize that SD county doesn’t have a fire department for itself. However, we have wildfires almost every week somewhere in the county and they almost never cause much damage and are put out pretty quickly. IMO we could have had 10,000 firefighters on Sunday and Monday and I doubt much could have been done with the winds we had.
You can’t even compare Orange county and LA county to San Diego county.

Oct 24, 2007 - 7:18 pm Bill Bradley:

Oregon Jon, these ideological arguments from you and other out-of-staters are … how do I put this?

>OregonJon :

It is disappointing to see that you’re making a comparison between the federal government’s response to Katrina to that of their response to the California fires.

Actually, OJ, I praised the Bush administration for doing a much better job responding to this crisis. Their role in Katrina was disastrous, as all but the most diehard acknowledge.

>Just like all politics is local all responses to disasters must be local. By the time the feds can mobilize and arrive it’s far too late, and indeed that’s the case in California. The difference between California and Katrina is that between local responses, at both the individual as well as government levels.

Yes. Well. You are arguing a political line. As I have pointed out, California is better led than Lousiana. Needless to say. BUT the federal response this time is also much better.

>Bashing the feds, when it’s impossible for them to be the primary responder to any disaster is simple fodder for the MSM, all the more so with a Republican president.

That’s not my problem there, OJ. That is the problem of the Bush PR team.

Which, actually, likes what I’m saying because I’m pointing out that the administration has improved after the debacle of Hurricane Katrina.

Whether that is because they have really improved or are simply afraid of being embarrassed by Arnold is, of course, a separate question.

>What’s remarkable about California is what isn’t being reported. To liste