Bush consigliere Karl Rove says former White House press secretary Scott McClellan sounds like “a left-wing blogger” in his new insider book about the Bush presidency.
** NWN FORUM: SPIRITED DEBATE ON GAY MARRIAGE. There is a spirited debate taking place in the Forum on gay and lesbian marriage and children. Speaking as someone who has not been a particular fan of gay marriage, you can either accept the future or reject it.
** IRAQ CLOCK. The Republican National Committee has erected an “Iraq Clock” to memorialize the two years since presidential frontunner Barack Obama has visited Iraq. Although I have the RNC’s release, I just spent an unsuccessful seven minutes attempting to link to this clever device. Perhaps they should stick to IBM Selectrics. Incidentally, I have never been to Iraq. But I do know that, were I to go, it would take thousands of dollars to guarantee my safety in getting from the airport outside Baghdad to the capital inside Baghdad itself. Unless I decided to play Lawrence of Arabia and disguise myself as an Arab. Of course, as readers know, I have no idea whatsoever what is going on in the ME …
** NORTH BY NORTHWEST. Hillary Clinton, campaigning in South Dakota, which Barack Obama will win next Tuesday, visited Mount Rushmore this morning. Asked if she visualized herself up there one day, alongside Washington, Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, and Lincoln, she smirked and threw up her hands.
“You think Bill Clinton should be up there?” a reporter asked.
“Why don’t you learn something about the monument,” Clinton finally said, before walking away to greet some more tourists.
Clinton refused to answer questions about former White House press secretary Scott McClellan’s new expose book on the Bush presidency. Clinton has not held a press conference for two weeks.
** SCHWARZENEGGER NAMES FONDA AND 11 OTHERS TO CALIFORNIA HALL OF FAME. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will name the following people to the California Hall of Fame: Dave Brubeck, Jane Fonda, Theodor Geisel (“Dr. Seuss”), Robert Graham, Quincy Jones, Jack LaLanne, Dorothea Lange, Julia Morgan, Jack Nicholson, Linus Pauling, Leland Stanford and Alice Waters. Let the games begin …
** WHERE THEY ARE TODAY.
Barack Obama is in Denver and Thornton, Colorado. Obama and John McCain are both focusing this week on the new general election battleground — the Mountain West.
It’s part of what you might call a … New West.
John McCain is in Reno, Nevada.
Hillary Clinton is in South Dakota.
Bill Clinton is in Puerto Rico.
** SCHWARZENEGGER LIVE WEBCAST THIS MORNING, THEN OFF TO MEXICO CITY. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger appears at the ribbon-cutting for the 400th LA school playground renovation financed by his friends Kirk and Anne Douglas. The event will be at 9:45 AM and will be webcast live at www.gov.ca.gov. Schwarzenegger played the role of “Handsome Stranger” in Douglas’s 1979 Western comedy, The Villain.
After that, Schwarzenegger is off to Mexico City for a whirlwind round of meetings with his fellow US and Mexican border governors, various ministers of the Mexican government, and Mexican President Felipe Calderon. Schwarzenegger hosts a major border governors conference in LA this summer. I’ll have much more about all this.
** BOMBSHELL BUSH BOOK. Scott McClellan, that nice guy presidential press secretary given to malapropisms who came with President Bush from Texas has a bombshell book coming out that will guarantee that Bush remains a political pariah for the rest of his term and make life quite difficult for John McCain. In “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception,” McClellan says the liberal media failed to expose the “propaganda campaign” that led to the Iraq War, discusses the debacle of Hurricane Katrina, and rips Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, and Bush political consigliere Karl Rove. And to think La Maison Blanche was perturbed with Bush chief strategist-turned-Schwarzenegger chief strategist Matthew Dowd. He didn’t write a book.
** WITH ICE CAP MELTING, ARCTIC NEGOTIATIONS BEGIN. With the Arctic ice cap melting rapidly — and, ironically, an estimated 25% of the world’s remaining oil and natural gas reserves beneath it — the five nations of the region have begun meeting in Greenland to try to work out their respective claims. Russia, Canada, Denmark, Norway and the U.S. are all meeting now in the wake of last year’s planting of the Russian flag beneath the North Pole.
** FIELD POLL: CALIFORNIANS BACK GAY MARRIAGE. The Field Poll of California voters shows same-sex marriage now favored, 51% to 42%. Before Arnold Schwarzenegger, who publicly opposes a likely November initiative attempt to ban gay marriage, became governor in 2003, same-sex marriage was opposed, 50% to 42%. (Schwarzenegger has vetoed high-profile gay marriage legislation citing an initiative at the beginning of the decade banning it, while making his sympathy clear. Then the California Supreme Court, dominated by Republicans, tossed out the gay marriage ban.) Partisan breakdown? Democrats, 65-29. Republicans, 25-69. Independents, 61-27.
** MY LATEST PODCAST. The road ahead.
** THE OTHER BIG PROBLEM WITH HILLARY’S NOTORIOUS REMARKS. I explain the OTHER big problem with Hillary Clinton’s notorious Friday afternoon remarks, on my other blog. (Not the RFK assassination reference, but her false claim that Bill Clinton’s 1992 nomination was in any doubt in June. As you’ll see, the Clinton high command knew in May that the fight was effectively over.)
** 24/7 LIVE TV NEWS FEED FROM RUSSIA TODAY. Russia has re-emerged as one of the world’s great powers. Click here for a live TV news feed on your computer, bringing you English-language, jargon-free, fast-paced coverage of global and Russian news from the new Russia Today channel. You probably already know about CNN International, BBC World, and Al Jazeera. Russia Today, which also features culture, entertainment, and sports, is based in Moscow and is owned and operated by the TV Novosti division of Russia’s state news agency, RIA Novosti.
While it’s quite foolish to expect to see, say, criticism of Vladimir Putin on Russia Today, which I know as a former DemRussia advisor, the channel is very interesting nonetheless. The NWN live link to RT does not constitute an endorsement of the channel’s views. It’s presented as an otherwise unavailable new media window.
** TRACK GLOBAL AND U.S. ENERGY PRICES IN NEAR REAL TIME VIA BLOOMBERG ENERGY MARKET WATCH. Crude oil is trading in the $127 to $128 per barrel range.
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Hap Hazard:McClellan forgot in what key the Dance with the one who brought you song is played.
May 28, 2008 - 7:32 am Jonas Blane:Karl Rove sure sounds pissed.
May 28, 2008 - 7:34 am Capitol Boy:Good for Scottie boy. This White House is so odious even some of the Texas insiders are telling the truth about it.
McCain better get some sprint training to keep out of any more pictures with Bush and Cheney.
May 28, 2008 - 7:39 am Ann:lol
May 28, 2008 - 7:41 am Len:They all will be out of office soon enough.
May 28, 2008 - 7:45 am Bill Bradley:Perhaps.
May 28, 2008 - 7:50 am Bill Bradley:Indeed.
>Ann:
lol
May 28, 2008 - 7:51 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 7:41 am
I predict more to come.
>Capitol Boy:
Good for Scottie boy. This White House is so odious even some of the Texas insiders are telling the truth about it.
McCain better get some sprint training to keep out of any more pictures with Bush and Cheney.
May 28, 2008 - 7:51 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 7:39 am
And with good reason. He is apparently ripped to shreds in the book.
>Jonas Blane:
Karl Rove sure sounds pissed.
May 28, 2008 - 7:52 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 7:34 am
It’s always an intriguing question. At what point does what one knows about a massive failure overcome a loyalty that may, in retrospect, have been misplaced?
>Hap Hazard:
McClellan forgot in what key the Dance with the one who brought you song is played.
May 28, 2008 - 7:53 am carole w:May 28, 2008 - 7:32 am
Gay Marriage is becoming more acceptable. Didn’t we argue about that at the beginning of the year?
May 28, 2008 - 8:07 am Sacramento Solon:Okay, just ordered the book. Now, back to reading Kennedy. Back later…
May 28, 2008 - 8:19 am Hap Hazard:I would like to see federal legislation prohibiting all 50 states from sanctioning, taxing or regulating marriage in any way, declaring the sense of the Congress that it is consistent with our separation of church and state traditions.
May 28, 2008 - 8:20 am Bill Bradley:Hap, you radical, you!
May 28, 2008 - 8:38 am Bill Bradley:So how come my copy of the new RFK book doesn’t arrive until tomorrow?
>Sacramento Solon:
Okay, just ordered the book. Now, back to reading Kennedy. Back later…
May 28, 2008 - 8:41 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 8:19 am
Gay marriage has always been part of the future. The only question has been — when does the future arrive?
The future comes first to California.
>carole w:
Gay Marriage is becoming more acceptable. Didn’t we argue about that at the beginning of the year?
May 28, 2008 - 8:42 am carole w:May 28, 2008 - 8:07 am
What about the future for divorce? Should everyone be entitled to a divorce? Marriage and Divorce aren’t they a similar religious/governmental issue?
May 28, 2008 - 8:55 am Sacramento Solon:I am in favor of marriage for anyone that is foolish enough to try it.
Sacto,
My copy of Outrageous Hero is here . I am half way through the book. The book reminds me of someone I know:)
Bill Bradley:
So how come my copy of the new RFK book doesn’t arrive until tomorrow?
—-
Old feeble minded has no idea why. I pre-ordered mine several weeks ago and Amazon shipped it last Friday.
Hell, two of the three books I ordered from them on Monday are scheduled for delivery today. Quick service. Wish I could read as fast as they deliver!
May 28, 2008 - 9:01 am Len:Schwarzenegger puts Jane Fonda in the California Hall of Fame! I love it.
May 28, 2008 - 9:02 am Sacramento Solon:Carole W scribes…
Sacto,
My copy of Outrageous Hero is here . I am half way through the book. The book reminds me of someone I know:)
——
Glad that you are enjoying the read. Whoever it is must be one very special person!
May 28, 2008 - 9:19 am Brasky:“BOMBSHELL BUSH BOOK”
Good - book deals are truely the economy of ideas. If people like the book, Scott’s going to get paid. I hope more people write about the inside workings of this White House.
BTW, I bet the McClellan book will be optioned for a movie…quickly.
May 28, 2008 - 9:28 am Kandy Kid:I bet we see some pictures of Hanoi Jane sitting at her anti-aircraft gun today. Naming her to the California Hall of Fame is a poorly-timed poke in the eye to Republican legislators and the conservative blogsphere. I see no budget love for a long time.
May 28, 2008 - 9:30 am Dana:Perhaps at last many of the folks who invested so much in Bush being President are having buyer’s regret?
Gary Kamiya in his Salon review of the HBO docudrama Recount refers to the “notorious Brooks Brothers riot,” that helped stop the Florida recount. Could some of them now feel like they were suckers for working so hard to install such a mediocre President?
Mark Evanier shares some similar thoughts on his blog:
http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2008_05_25.html#015287
Isn’t McClellan’s sin simply saying out loud what many Bush insiders probably already privately think? Come on, does any one really still think Rove is a political genius, Bush a great President, etc. The Bush legacy spin unravelling and the ugly truth being exposed (and realizing his pundit meal ticket may have a short half life) is what Rove is reacting to. Maybe reality will reassert itself and failure will no longer be its own reward. The Bush 43 era is coming to an inglorious end! (And BTW, isn’t the Bush brand so tarnished now that Jeb’s rumored hopes for higher office are DOA?)
>Bill Bradley:
It’s always an intriguing question. At what point does what one knows about a massive failure overcome a loyalty that may, in retrospect, have been misplaced?
May 28, 2008 - 9:43 am carole w:Recount is a good movie.
May 28, 2008 - 9:50 am Brasky:Ugh…Vietnam…again.
Great…I’m sure Paul Burton will jump in to keep this 1960’s flashback going…
Everyone over 45 should have to go to a twelve step program to stop living in the 60’s. The hard truth is the Left and Right seriously fucked-up on Vietnam. You’ll need to quit comparing current events to shit that happened in the 1960’s.
The amount of time that has passed since Vietnam is essentially the same that passed between the Civil War and WWI.
May 28, 2008 - 9:54 am Capitol Boy:You mean, the FLASH REPORT is going to attack Schwarzeneger?
I bet he is very afraid.
May 28, 2008 - 10:07 am Dana:Brasky, isn’t the point that the Left and Right seriously screwed-up on Iraq? My country right or wrong, support the troops, etc. Are those 1968 or 2008 soundbites?
Last night on Charlie Rose author Peter Matthiessen lamented our history post WWII of invading smaller countries, beating up on them, all to assert our manhood and yet diminish ourselves in the eyes of others and ultimately ourselves.
Isn’t Obama’s meteoric rise partly that he calls to us to have aspiration beyond what we have been to what we could be. Even McCain in that excellent Annapolis speech touches on this underlying theme.
Already Bush is fading in the rearview mirror of history as we begin the hard task to fight for the future, for ourselves and our posterity. A future of freedom and individial hope, no of and for the fat cats.
May 28, 2008 - 10:16 am Brasky:The flash report is the rabid hamster of right wing political “journalism.”
May 28, 2008 - 10:16 am Brasky:Dana - my point is that we need to move beyond the ghosts of the past and take charge of our future. That’s what America excels at. It’s what people see in Obama.
When the Left compares Iraq to Vietnam or when the Right attacks those against the war for being unpatriotic, we are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past when the future beckons with something greater.
Ironically, McCain was positioned to be someone who broke from this dysfunctional paradigm, but he seems to becoming mired in it, like a mammoth struggling in a tar pit.
I’m tired of old hippies and old conservatives running my country. I don’t want to be living in an All in the Family rerun anymore. That stuff needs to stay on Nick at Night.
May 28, 2008 - 10:24 am Johnnie Rico:Kill ‘em all.
May 28, 2008 - 10:38 am Kandy Kid:Brasky, this is one of the best NWN comments of the year so far…congrats.
“I’m tired of old hippies and old conservatives running my country. I don’t want to be living in an All in the Family rerun anymore. That stuff needs to stay on Nick at Night.”
You are right, we need to move on. But the conservatives who hold the key to Arnold’s budget fix (and fiscal legacy) see Jane Fonda as a traitor, not an activist actor. Few people respond well after having cigar ashes gratuitously tapped into their Cheerios.
May 28, 2008 - 10:49 am Bill Bradley:One of Arnold’s mistakes was in not having a come to Jesus meeting with Republicans early on.
If Republicans want to define themselves for a generation as obstructionists, that is their choice.
May 28, 2008 - 11:26 am Bill Bradley:Uh, thanks, LT Rico.
>Johnnie Rico:
Kill ‘em all.
May 28, 2008 - 11:27 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 10:38 am
Nicely put.
>Brasky:
Dana - my point is that we need to move beyond the ghosts of the past and take charge of our future. That’s what America excels at. It’s what people see in Obama.
When the Left compares Iraq to Vietnam or when the Right attacks those against the war for being unpatriotic, we are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past when the future beckons with something greater.
Ironically, McCain was positioned to be someone who broke from this dysfunctional paradigm, but he seems to becoming mired in it, like a mammoth struggling in a tar pit.
I’m tired of old hippies and old conservatives running my country. I don’t want to be living in an All in the Family rerun anymore. That stuff needs to stay on Nick at Night.
May 28, 2008 - 11:28 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 10:24 am
There is a certain lack of intellectual firepower …
>Brasky:
The flash report is the rabid hamster of right wing political “journalism.”
May 28, 2008 - 11:29 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 10:16 am
There is actually an excellent reason to invade Iraq and oust Saddam. It’s called … the map.
>Dana:
Brasky, isn’t the point that the Left and Right seriously screwed-up on Iraq? My country right or wrong, support the troops, etc. Are those 1968 or 2008 soundbites?
Last night on Charlie Rose author Peter Matthiessen lamented our history post WWII of invading smaller countries, beating up on them, all to assert our manhood and yet diminish ourselves in the eyes of others and ultimately ourselves.
May 28, 2008 - 11:30 am Hap Hazard:Perhaps at last many of the folks who invested so much in Bush being President are having buyer’s regret? — Or else they would like a job in network TV news, therefore the statement of qualifications issues..
May 28, 2008 - 11:38 am Hap Hazard:There is actually an excellent reason to invade Iraq and oust Saddam. It’s called … the map. — Truth really is the first casualty of war. I remember hoping that Bush would say that we are going into Iraq (once we actually finish Afghanistan) to remove a tyrannical extremist who practices genocide regularly, and also to break up an alliance that represents a threat to the security of people in surrounding countries as well. And that we will be an occupying force there until a new government can be established that won’t be killing its own citizens, if nothing else.
But of course Bush didn’t have the nerve, and didn’t have the votes in Congress, to be honest about it. But if he had framed it right and conducted the mission with that in mind, it might have worked out better.
May 28, 2008 - 11:46 am Hap Hazard:author Peter Matthiessen lamented our history post WWII of invading smaller countries, beating up on them, all to assert our manhood and yet diminish ourselves in the eyes of others and ultimately ourselves — I think that is BS
May 28, 2008 - 11:48 am carole w:We just had a nasty plane crash up here in Big Bear City. It was nasty , I heard something and then we had a power outage.I was knocked off the computer. I am sure the news will pick it up soon.
May 28, 2008 - 12:16 pm Paul Burton:There is a liberal media? Wow! That’s news!
McLellan had no problem prostituting himself to sell the Cheney Bush package of lies. Now he wants to profit off exposing those lies. This is old news of course because anyone with a brain knew Bush, Cheney, Rice, McLellan and Powell were lying. But the ‘liberal media’ failed to point out that the US supplied the evildoer Saddam with chemical weapons thanks to Reagun’s boy Rumpsfelt and created al-Queada’s forefathers the freedom fighter Mujahadeen.
>>In “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception,” McClellan says the liberal media failed to expose the “propaganda campaign” that led to the Iraq War,
May 28, 2008 - 12:19 pm Bill Bradley:Sorry, Paul, there is no radical media. There is, however, what you and I both would call a corporate liberal media.
May 28, 2008 - 12:30 pm Bill Bradley:Well, that’s no good.
>carole w:
We just had a nasty plane crash up here in Big Bear City. It was nasty , I heard something and then we had a power outage.I was knocked off the computer. I am sure the news will pick it up soon.
May 28, 2008 - 12:32 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 12:16 pm
Aside from the obvious case of Grenada, I’m not sure I see that particular point …
>Hap Hazard:
author Peter Matthiessen lamented our history post WWII of invading smaller countries, beating up on them, all to assert our manhood and yet diminish ourselves in the eyes of others and ultimately ourselves — I think that is BS
May 28, 2008 - 12:33 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 11:48 am
I see the map as the reason to invade Iraq. The rest … the truth is Saddam was not a threat to neighboring countries post-Desert Storm. A terrible guy, to be sure. In a world with a surfeit of terrible guys.
>Hap Hazard:
There is actually an excellent reason to invade Iraq and oust Saddam. It’s called … the map. — Truth really is the first casualty of war. I remember hoping that Bush would say that we are going into Iraq (once we actually finish Afghanistan) to remove a tyrannical extremist who practices genocide regularly, and also to break up an alliance that represents a threat to the security of people in surrounding countries as well. And that we will be an occupying force there until a new government can be established that won’t be killing its own citizens, if nothing else.
But of course Bush didn’t have the nerve, and didn’t have the votes in Congress, to be honest about it. But if he had framed it right and conducted the mission with that in mind, it might have worked out better.
May 28, 2008 - 12:34 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 11:46 am
Well, I’m familiar with Matthew Dowd’s struggle over this. I don’t know Scott McClellan.
But I will predict that there will be a flood of post-Bush insider statements about the incompetence etc. of the Bush/Cheney White House.
Obviously there are some things I’m not writing.
>Hap Hazard:
Perhaps at last many of the folks who invested so much in Bush being President are having buyer’s regret? — Or else they would like a job in network TV news, therefore the statement of qualifications issues..
May 28, 2008 - 12:36 pm carole w:May 28, 2008 - 11:38 am
A female pilot flew the Cessna (registered out of Redondo Beach), clipped the power lines, sheared off the wings… as the fuselage went into a house. The pilot walked away. I have my power on.
May 28, 2008 - 12:45 pm Brasky:“author Peter Matthiessen lamented our history post WWII of invading smaller countries, beating up on them, all to assert our manhood and yet diminish ourselves in the eyes of others and ultimately ourselves — I think that is BS”
I agree partly. The Cold War was a chess game and the little countries were the pawns. Most of the front rows got taken, leaving the back rows relatively unscathed. Then both sides called the game.
I don’t think Americans invaded any countries, but we certainly used the locals to our advantage. In many places in Africa (again, I’m not talking about Vietnam, Korea, etc.), either side of a conflict were armed by one of the Superpowers. The difference between sides often wasn’t Communism vs. Democracy, but AK-47 vs. M-16. Someone said the ONLY way you good tell who was a “bad guy” or a “good guy” out in the bush, wasn’t about their political views, the atrocities they committed or even the village they were from – you looked for the (now) iconic “banana clip” of the AK-47.
The defeat of the USSR was one of the great achievements of the 20th century, but the Cold War created a lot of collateral damage that most American will never know about.
I’m not smart enough to know if it could have been won any other way…
May 28, 2008 - 12:55 pm Brasky:“Clinton has not held a press conference for two weeks.”
I hadn’t noticed. Maybe she’s trying to look more presidential…
May 28, 2008 - 1:03 pm Dana:Now gay Mormons are publicly urging the LDS church to not support appeal of the California State Supremem Court ruling on gay marriage:
http://www.localnews8.com/global/story.asp?s=8390176
May 28, 2008 - 1:09 pm Brasky:BTW, Kid/Bill - thanks!
May 28, 2008 - 1:20 pm Dana:I’ll extend my previous comments in re American adventurism to note the sad results for the locals are far short of what one could hope for. Panama and Kuwait especially embarrass–despots and corrrupt officials were there before we invaded and still are. Plus almost every bad guy we eventually turn on used to be on our payroll (Noriega, Saddham, Afghan freedom fighters).
Yes, Brasky we must go foward but we need to be conscious of our past mis-steps, so at least we don’t repeat them.
We needed to finish the job in Afghanistan (you know, where actual terrorists were despite the President’s attempt to confuse where 9/11 bad guys came from) not get distracted in Iraq. And now to get more troops into Afghanistan we’ll have to steal them from Iraq, thanks to the surge using up reserves. Trillions have been wasted on GW Bush’s misguided and wrong-headed crusade in Iraq. All in all a mess richly deserving the dismal rating in polls he now has. And why does anyone care why Karl Rove has to say? The verdict is in–Bush, worse President in 100 years. Now to open a new chapter and a new day.
May 28, 2008 - 1:34 pm Bill Bradley:Actually, America did not invade Kuwait.
Iraq invaded Kuwait.
We went in to eject Saddam’s forces.
>Dana:
I’ll extend my previous comments in re American adventurism to note the sad results for the locals are far short of what one could hope for. Panama and Kuwait especially embarrass–despots and corrrupt officials were there before we invaded and still are.
May 28, 2008 - 1:38 pm Bill Bradley:How so?
>Brasky:
BTW, Kid/Bill - thanks!
May 28, 2008 - 1:46 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 1:20 pm
I think this deal is game over and conservatives don’t even get it yet.
>Dana:
Now gay Mormons are publicly urging the LDS church to not support appeal of the California State Supremem Court ruling on gay marriage:
http://www.localnews8.com/global/story.asp?s=8390176
May 28, 2008 - 1:47 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 1:09 pm
Less is more.
As someone has said.
>Brasky:
“Clinton has not held a press conference for two weeks.”
I hadn’t noticed. Maybe she’s trying to look more presidential…
May 28, 2008 - 1:48 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 1:03 pm
America did not invade any countries — first — during the Cold War.
The US was actually counter-punching throughout that long twilight conflict.
To ultimately great effect.
>Brasky:
“author Peter Matthiessen lamented our history post WWII of invading smaller countries, beating up on them, all to assert our manhood and yet diminish ourselves in the eyes of others and ultimately ourselves — I think that is BS”
I agree partly. The Cold War was a chess game and the little countries were the pawns. Most of the front rows got taken, leaving the back rows relatively unscathed. Then both sides called the game.
I don’t think Americans invaded any countries, but we certainly used the locals to our advantage.
May 28, 2008 - 1:51 pm Bill Bradley:Bad flying leads to bad result.
>carole w:
A female pilot flew the Cessna (registered out of Redondo Beach), clipped the power lines, sheared off the wings… as the fuselage went into a house. The pilot walked away. I have my power on.
May 28, 2008 - 1:54 pm Prospero:May 28, 2008 - 12:45 pm
There’s only one appeal left of the California Supreme Court decision — appeal to the voters. There’s no federal issue in the case. I don’t know what appeal the Mormons are talking about, but then, I seldom know what the Mormons are talking about in general.
We’re the only judges left, then. Fortunately, I look very good in black.
May 28, 2008 - 2:20 pm Brasky:“America did not invade any countries — first — during the Cold War.
The US was actually counter-punching throughout that long twilight conflict.”
Agree, but both sides punched and counter-punched thru intermediaries that were not undamaged by the match.
BTW, I would NOT call Panama, Kuwait or Grenada invasions.
May 28, 2008 - 2:59 pm Hap Hazard:deal is game over and conservatives don’t even get it yet — I think they are afraid the issue will die, and cannot see it has already passed them by. I think they “cling” to this issue because they care about its usefulness as a wedge issue to be employed to define candidates and then line up votes for or against them accordingly.
May 28, 2008 - 3:14 pm Bill Bradley:I think all that is over. And I say this as someone who is not a fan of gay marriage. People are increasingly simply acknowledging the obvious about the future. People who don’t get it, just don’t get it.
May 28, 2008 - 3:51 pm Bill Bradley:There is always a federal appeal. Not that it is relevant.
>Prospero:
There’s only one appeal left of the California Supreme Court decision — appeal to the voters. There’s no federal issue in the case. I don’t know what appeal the Mormons are talking about, but then, I seldom know what the Mormons are talking about in general.
We’re the only judges left, then. Fortunately, I look very good in black.
May 28, 2008 - 3:52 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 2:20 pm
I would say …
Panama was a US invasion.
Kuwait was not a US invasion.
Grenada was a US invasion.
>Brasky:
“America did not invade any countries — first — during the Cold War.
The US was actually counter-punching throughout that long twilight conflict.”
Agree, but both sides punched and counter-punched thru intermediaries that were not undamaged by the match.
BTW, I would NOT call Panama, Kuwait or Grenada invasions.
May 28, 2008 - 3:54 pm Brasky:May 28, 2008 - 2:59 pm
“The Republican National Committee has erected an ‘Iraq Clock’ to memorialize the two years since presidential frontunner Barack Obama has visited Iraq.”
How many delegates does Iraq have?! Jesus, this primary just won’t end!
May 28, 2008 - 4:25 pm Pat Skipper:Brasky, sorry to seem so “over 45,” in these pages, but the Vietnam conflict shaped the youth culture. Many of us got interested in the political system because of it. The war, coupled with Nixon’s illegal activities, led to a deep vein of cynicism in this country.
There are many similarities between the war and the conflict in Iraq. Most notably, the ineptitude of the civilian command, the disinformation from the Pentagon and the administration, and a murky goal that cannot be attained.
We neglect our history lessons and the observations of our elders (wink, wink) at some peril.
May 28, 2008 - 4:30 pm Dana:I was shocked this morning a pro 98 radio ad I heard mentioned rent contol, tried to tout how it would eliminate rent control banmned in 44 states (I think that was the number they gave). And of course it used the new well worn claim it is the best yes, while 99 is a “scheme”. After all this time saying it had nothing to do w/rent control. Aamzing.
May 28, 2008 - 4:32 pm Dana:I agree w/Pat Skipper. And will concede my prior comments over-stated some things. But none of these foreign actions have been directly tied to our national security, in my view. Frankly I pity whoever the next President is, cleaning up the mess left by Bush et al.
>Bill Bradley:
I would say …
Panama was a US invasion.
Kuwait was not a US invasion.
Grenada was a US invasion.
May 28, 2008 - 4:35 pm Hap Hazard:I am not a fan of gay marriage, not so much on the concept of two people who love each other making a commitment in marriage to each other. I have a bigger issue with how this all affects kids.
I know, and have known, several kids who were raised by gay parents who are my friends and colleagues. The children have suffered in their upbringing and youth. It hasn’t been very traumatic for them when it was a single, gay parent household, but whenever two parents of the same sex have been raising the children, they almost always pay significant consequences at school, and in their overall social and emotional upbringing.
This is of course a sensitive issue and I have never been able to talk (at length) to my friends about this, but I know that they know that the situation isn’t the best (and they also know how I feel about the issue). But it is notable that they routinely send their kids to small, private schools, as if to acknowledge the problem of sending the kids to public schools.
I think it is a bit unfair for the activists to have browbeaten adoption agencies, even private religious ones, with laws and legal decisions demanding that high adoption consideration be given to gay couples. I frankly don’t see how that is in the “best interests of the child” who will be going to live in that situation.
I don’t know what the answer is, except I do know that enacting “hate crime” laws directed at schoolchildren isn’t one of them. I don’t want to deny my friends the right to have children of the relationship, but I have seen that it can be hard on the kids.
May 28, 2008 - 4:40 pm Dana:Hap, divorce is hard on kids. Should we ban divorce? And the underlying premise that some other kind of family set-up is “better” really doesn’t bear much scrutiny. Should we base our lives on fear and indulge intolerance?
May 28, 2008 - 4:47 pm Hap Hazard:Dana — Divorce can be hard on kids, but not in the same way, nor as certainly, as gay marriages that stay together are on the kids. I think we should base our lives on reality.
May 28, 2008 - 4:57 pm Brasky:I understand the impact of Vietnam. I remember being in one march before they completed the pull out in ‘75.
By not understanding our history, we are condemned to repeat our mistakes. But we are also condemned to relive the past if we are not able to let go of it.
Vietnam was a meat grinder for poor and working class kids that couldn’t get out of service. It impacted a generation because it decimated a generation (at least a generation of underclass).
Iraq pales, absolutely pales, in the destruction wrought on our service men and women (which is still unacceptable in my mind).
One reason Vietnam protestors failed to stop the war in any kind of timely manner is that they took pride in separating themselves from the establishment. They rejected not only the war, but the values of their parents (a mixed bag to be sure). This turned a debate on the merits of pulling out of Vietnam into a culture war. And while the hippie college kids smoked dope, turned on and dropped out, a war waged on and tens of thousands of working class kids died. The fastest way to stop the war was to register to vote, get haircut, put on a suit and join the establishment.
By tying Iraq to Vietnam, you allow the war proponents to discount you based on a judgment of the STILL waging culture war, rather than the merits of getting the Hell out of Iraq.
I didn’t want the US to go to Iraq and I’m (now) ready for us to come home, but comparing Iraq to Vietnam ain’t productive.
May 28, 2008 - 5:05 pm Bill Bradley:A stable gay/lesbian relationship is worse for kids than a divorced straight relationship?
Ummm …. I don’t think so.
Kids need stability.
May 28, 2008 - 5:05 pm Bill Bradley:Shit. Obviously, I am responding to Hap’s post.
May 28, 2008 - 5:06 pm Pat Skipper:Hap, with respect, children of interracial families once suffered in similar fashion. Time passed. People got used to it.
I highly recommend reading the court’s decision. They are far from activists.
May 28, 2008 - 5:06 pm Bill Bradley:We have got to get out of the whole ’60s bullshit.
>Brasky:
I understand the impact of Vietnam. I remember being in one march before they completed the pull out in ‘75.
By not understanding our history, we are condemned to repeat our mistakes. But we are also condemned to relive the past if we are not able to let go of it.
May 28, 2008 - 5:07 pm Brasky:Hap - first, thanks for having the guts to have a frank and sincere conversation. Kudos.
I would say that you could have said the same thing about mixed-race marriages not that long ago…
May 28, 2008 - 5:08 pm Brasky:Pat and I on the same wavelength - but point to Pat for buzzing-in first!
May 28, 2008 - 5:09 pm Brasky:“We have got to get out of the whole ’60s bullshit.”
I’m making bumperstickers!
May 28, 2008 - 5:10 pm Bill Bradley:Meanwhile, I am trying to write a think piece …
May 28, 2008 - 5:11 pm Bill Bradley:You know, as I discussed not long ago today with a longtime gal pal of no little repute, I am as intrinsically homophobic as the next redblooded American guy.
Yet, I fail to see how stable caring relationships between two dads or moms are more disruptive for children than the horror show of divorced heterosexual parents.
>Hap Hazard:
Dana — Divorce can be hard on kids, but not in the same way, nor as certainly, as gay marriages that stay together are on the kids. I think we should base our lives on reality.
May 28, 2008 - 5:17 pm Pat Skipper:May 28, 2008 - 4:57 pm
Brasky, we can agree that the anti-war movement was excessive in many ways. I don’t really want to debate Vietnam with you. I’ll save that for the day I get to have a beer with Pat Buchanan. Maybe he could articulate what we would have “won” had we kept on fighting.
So far, yes, Iraq pales in comparison, but it ain’t over. Certainly you would agree that the US could and should have gotten out of Southeast Asia in 1968 or 1969.
Finally, I’ll say this: the US won the Vietnam war. They are a peaceful county now and a trading partner. You can surf there, too.
But we could have won it by getting out much earlier, I think.
May 28, 2008 - 5:19 pm Bill Bradley:Oh, that makes me so happy …
>Brasky:
“We have got to get out of the whole ’60s bullshit.”
I’m making bumperstickers!
May 28, 2008 - 5:19 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 5:10 pm
Without divorce, we live in a theocracy.
>Dana:
Hap, divorce is hard on kids. Should we ban divorce? And the underlying premise that some other kind of family set-up is “better” really doesn’t bear much scrutiny. Should we base our lives on fear and indulge intolerance?
May 28, 2008 - 5:21 pm Hap Hazard:May 28, 2008 - 4:47 pm
Kids need stability. - no doubt, but they also need to have their family accepted by the other kids. I don’t know the answer, but it is an issue. The parents of the kids I know are totally committed to their kids, but the kids have nevertheless been affected by the arrangements. Divorce is different. It can lead to a stable life for the kids, or not, but the important difference is that it much more socially acceptable, particularly on the elementary school playground and on school field trips.
May 28, 2008 - 5:22 pm Bill Bradley:And yet, Iraq is decimating the cadre of volunteers, which is the entire point of the James Webb GI Bill.
>Brasky:
I understand the impact of Vietnam. I remember being in one march before they completed the pull out in ‘75.
By not understanding our history, we are condemned to repeat our mistakes. But we are also condemned to relive the past if we are not able to let go of it.
Vietnam was a meat grinder for poor and working class kids that couldn’t get out of service. It impacted a generation because it decimated a generation (at least a generation of underclass).
Iraq pales, absolutely pales, in the destruction wrought on our service men and women (which is still unacceptable in my mind).
May 28, 2008 - 5:24 pm Hap Hazard:you could have said the same thing about mixed-race marriages not that long ago — Maybe that is a good analogy, in which case the issue might be problematic for a while, but not for long. By now I have clearly hogged enough airspace with this issue, so …
May 28, 2008 - 5:27 pm Brasky:“You can surf there, too.”
You could surf during the war too…or maybe that was a movie I saw.
Yes, long live the surfing democracies!
Pat - yes, we could have left earlier. Much earlier. We won nothing. My point is that giving the proponents of a war (Iraq or Vietnam) a reason to oppose you OTHER than your position on war makes it difficult to get beyond the shouting match, Fox-sponsored culture war.
That’s why I like Webb as my VP. Ain’t no one calling that guy an Hippie love child.
May 28, 2008 - 5:28 pm Brasky:“Without divorce, we live in a theocracy.”
As Mel Brooks said, “It’s good to be the king.”
That is, until they come for your head…
May 28, 2008 - 5:29 pm Bill Bradley:It’s a transitional period between the past and the future.
The fact is that the children of younger people — whether their parents are black, black/white, brown, yellow, gay, whatever — are being accepted by the new generation.
The folks who don’t like the new reality are mostly too old to have kids.
May 28, 2008 - 5:31 pm Bill Bradley:… And, of course, I’m responding to Hap …
May 28, 2008 - 5:32 pm Brasky:“And yet, Iraq is decimating the cadre of volunteers, which is the entire point of the James Webb GI Bill.”
This is the most under-talked about issue of Iraq - we are now militarily a WEAK and INEFFECTIVE superpower. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not France (thank God in Heaven), but we are not up-to-snuff with our historic military prowess.
Diplomacy (with humility) backed by strength – that’s what America needs and this administration fails on both counts.
“Walk softly and carry a big stick” – Teddy knew it. He built the White Fleet AND secured the end of the Russian-Japanese thru largely secret negotiations and requiring no small amount of humility.
President Bush wouldn’t know humility if it bit him. In fact, I’m sure it’s bitten him several times and he seems immune.
When McCain talks about Russia and Iran, I see much more Bush II than Roosevelt I.
May 28, 2008 - 5:39 pm Bill Bradley:It is entirely possible that, by virtue of so-called soft power, America is bound to win in most all situations …
>Pat Skipper:
Brasky, we can agree that the anti-war movement was excessive in many ways. I don’t really want to debate Vietnam with you. I’ll save that for the day I get to have a beer with Pat Buchanan. Maybe he could articulate what we would have “won” had we kept on fighting.
So far, yes, Iraq pales in comparison, but it ain’t over. Certainly you would agree that the US could and should have gotten out of Southeast Asia in 1968 or 1969.
Finally, I’ll say this: the US won the Vietnam war. They are a peaceful county now and a trading partner. You can surf there, too.
But we could have won it by getting out much earlier, I think.
May 28, 2008 - 5:44 pm Brasky:“It’s a transitional period between the past and the future.”
I remember my mother telling me a story about when she was pregnant with me.
They had friends over and decided to order pizza and had to pick it up. A friend of my dad (probably a buddy from the service) drove her to the pizza place.
They walked in and it was like a Western - everybody stopped what they were doing and gave-off some pretty hostile vibes. You see my mom was a pregnant white woman and my dad’s friend was a black man. It didn’t go over to well in 1960’s Los Angeles. I imagine if that had happened when they lived in Georgia, I might not be here.
Anyway, Bill’s right - times are a changing, like they always are. America has chronic growing pains of all kinds – it’s the curse of greatness.
May 28, 2008 - 5:49 pm Bill Bradley:As a faintly homophobic, though not anti-gay guy — for whom sociology is one of my national honors areas — my view is that this is changing rather rapidly.
The future is accelerating towards us. We embrace it, or reject it. To our peril.
>Hap Hazard:
I am not a fan of gay marriage, not so much on the concept of two people who love each other making a commitment in marriage to each other. I have a bigger issue with how this all affects kids.
I know, and have known, several kids who were raised by gay parents who are my friends and colleagues. The children have suffered in their upbringing and youth. It hasn’t been very traumatic for them when it was a single, gay parent household, but whenever two parents of the same sex have been raising the children, they almost always pay significant consequences at school, and in their overall social and emotional upbringing.
May 28, 2008 - 5:49 pm Brasky:Good chats today!
May 28, 2008 - 5:51 pm Brasky:“The future is accelerating towards us. We embrace it, or reject it. To our peril.”
BTW, this seems to be one of Arnold’s tenets (part of is California core being) and he seems ready to embrace the future.
May 28, 2008 - 5:55 pm Bill Bradley:Well, you will never find me talking down anyone who has the balls to volunteer for the US Armed Forces. To everyone who does, I say, Godspeed to you and may you rock the house.
However, the fact is that US military quotas are, due to the, um, extended situation in Iraq, increasingly met by folks who would not otherwise be accepted by the services.
The overwhelmingly accepted Webb GI bill addresses this obvious reality.
The badly defeated McCain alternative does not.
>Brasky:
“And yet, Iraq is decimating the cadre of volunteers, which is the entire point of the James Webb GI Bill.”
This is the most under-talked about issue of Iraq - we are now militarily a WEAK and INEFFECTIVE superpower. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not France (thank God in Heaven), but we are not up-to-snuff with our historic military prowess.
May 28, 2008 - 5:55 pm Pat Skipper:brasky, we agree on Webb. 100%
May 28, 2008 - 6:09 pm Bill Bradley:The future vs. the past. A fundamental question in politics, per Gary Hart.
>Brasky:
“The future is accelerating towards us. We embrace it, or reject it. To our peril.”
BTW, this seems to be one of Arnold’s tenets (part of is California core being) and he seems ready to embrace the future.
May 28, 2008 - 6:09 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 5:55 pm
… And for that matter, Robert Heinlein. A favorite author of both myself and Hart.
May 28, 2008 - 6:10 pm Bill Bradley:Indeed.
>Brasky:
Good chats today!
May 28, 2008 - 6:12 pm Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 5:51 pm
How about that?
>Pat Skipper:
brasky, we agree on Webb. 100%
May 28, 2008 - 6:14 pm Brasky:May 28, 2008 - 6:09 pm
I’m glad Pat has joined our crew. It’s good to get good regulars.
May 28, 2008 - 6:16 pm Bill Bradley:Pat Skipper is a great guy, a super-smart Ivy Leaguer and top Hollywood character actor with whom — along with some other actors and a few producer types — I had dinner most every night for over a month while we were making See Arnold Run a few years ago on location in San Diego. (During which THE Arnold told me: “Isn’t it great to be off on location?”)
Sometimes, these Yalies actually know a little bit about politics …
May 28, 2008 - 6:26 pm Johnnie Rico:Ivies? Kill ‘em all.
May 28, 2008 - 7:37 pm Pat Skipper:too bad you’re not a film critic.
May 28, 2008 - 7:39 pm carole w:I have a couple of friends that are male and committed. My friends have children. They are the best parents, better than some of my heterosexual friends. The children are happy and well adjusted. I love them dearly and miss them, when they are not here.
May 28, 2008 - 7:42 pm carole w:Bill,
dammit! One of my old male friends had a tizzy because he had to share a locker room with a gay peer. I just don’t understand. Gay men and lesbian women love each other the same way you love a woman. It is all in the soul.
Thank You for the history lesson today, everyone.
May 28, 2008 - 7:45 pm Dana:Remember Spock reacting to Zefram Cochrane’s rant about decency and morality?
May 28, 2008 - 8:57 pm Hap Hazard:“Fascinating, a totally parochial attitude.”
Thank You for the history lesson today, everyone. — Carole, it is also very good to have this place, at which Bill encourages civility, and in fact enforces it when it becomes necessary or useful. I also like that there is a group of regulars that I enjoy hearing from, including you, and that our host takes out his time and participates in the forum.
May 28, 2008 - 9:55 pm Brasky:Seconded Hap.
May 29, 2008 - 1:22 am sergei:In my country, homosexuals who marry would be killed.
May 29, 2008 - 2:50 am Hap Hazard:Sergei - Thank you for giving us Americans some perspective
May 29, 2008 - 6:03 am Jonas Blane:What video today?
May 29, 2008 - 7:20 am Sacramento Solon:100% agreement with Hap and Brasky.
May 29, 2008 - 7:33 am carole w:Love you guys!
May 29, 2008 - 7:59 am Bill Bradley:Um, thanks.
May 29, 2008 - 11:05 am Bill Bradley:A Hillary swan song.
>Jonas Blane:
What video today?
May 29, 2008 - 11:06 am Bill Bradley:May 29, 2008 - 7:20 am
Not a very uplifting perspective, from a major country where black people can be beaten in the streets of Moscow …
>Hap Hazard:
Sergei - Thank you for giving us Americans some perspective
May 29, 2008 - 11:08 am Bill Bradley:May 29, 2008 - 6:03 am
Indeed.
>sergei:
In my country, homosexuals who marry would be killed.
May 29, 2008 - 11:10 am Bill Bradley:May 29, 2008 - 2:50 am
Thanks, Hap!
>Hap Hazard:
Thank You for the history lesson today, everyone. — Carole, it is also very good to have this place, at which Bill encourages civility, and in fact enforces it when it becomes necessary or useful. I also like that there is a group of regulars that I enjoy hearing from, including you, and that our host takes out his time and participates in the forum.
May 29, 2008 - 11:12 am Bill Bradley:May 28, 2008 - 9:55 pm
That would be from the Original Series, not the movie Star Trek: First Contact …
>Dana:
Remember Spock reacting to Zefram Cochrane’s rant about decency and morality?
May 29, 2008 - 11:14 am Bill Bradley:“Fascinating, a totally parochial attitude.”
May 28, 2008 - 8:57 pm
Exactly. Very well said.
>carole w:
I have a couple of friends that are male and committed. My friends have children. They are the best parents, better than some of my heterosexual friends. The children are happy and well adjusted. I love them dearly and miss them, when they are not here.
May 29, 2008 - 11:16 am Bill Bradley:Bill,
dammit! One of my old male friends had a tizzy because he had to share a locker room with a gay peer. I just don’t understand. Gay men and lesbian women love each other the same way you love a woman. It is all in the soul.
May 28, 2008 - 7:42 pm
I sometimes wish I’d gone into that field. It would certainly make life simpler.
>Pat Skipper:
too bad you’re not a film critic.
May 29, 2008 - 11:19 amMay 28, 2008 - 7:39 pm