‘A Cross Underneath One’s Clothing Is Okay’: An Interview with the Bishop of Arabia
Paul Hinder talks about shepherding Christians in the heart of the Muslim world.
The Swiss-born Paul Hinder is the Catholic Church’s bishop of Arabia. Pierre Heumann of the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche spoke with him recently on “inter-religious dialogue,” the political tendency of Islam, and the difficulties confronted by practicing Christians in Arab countries. The interview appears here for the first time in English.
John Rosenthal
(Translator)
***
Bishop Hinder, in 2009 Switzerland will be deciding whether minarets should be permitted in the country. How would you advise Swiss voters to vote?
Every public building wants to stand out. That’s normal and legitimate.
Minarets are supposed to mark the presence of Muslims in Switzerland. Is a political claim to power also connected to this symbolism?
I cannot rule out the possibility. But I would answer with another question: why should the minaret of a mosque not be visible? On the other hand, a 200-meter-high minaret would certainly be an affront and would disrupt the city’s appearance. I would say that this has little to do with religious freedom.
The disruption would be less severe than in the case of the building of the glass skyscraper of a bank.
But the bank is also a sort of religion. (Smiles) What would interest me more than the building of minarets is what is preached inside the mosque, in what language the faithful are addressed, and how the imams have been trained.
About what in particular would you be concerned …
A completely separate subculture could evolve, which would have explosive potential. The tower is not necessarily the issue …
… in the last analysis a matter for building inspectors?
Rather the culture that is being practiced next to the tower is the issue. It is no offense against freedom of religion if one poses the basic demand that Muslims who live in a Western country recognize fundamental rights and the constitution. In this regard, there is certainly a lot of room for improvement.
In the Arab countries for which you are responsible as bishop, church towers are taboo.
In Qatar recently, we were permitted to build a church large enough to accommodate 2,700 of the faithful. There is not a church that big in all of Switzerland. But it is true that in the agreement with the government it is clearly stated that no religious symbols should be visible from the exterior. It is only in the interior that Christian symbols are tolerated. If I had not accepted this condition, my request for the building permit would have been rejected. I did not even apply for the permission to build a church tower.
Are you permitted to be seen in the street in your vestments?
We voluntarily practice a certain degree of discretion, in order not to provoke anyone. But in most of the countries of the [Arabian] Peninsula, it is not a problem to wear the clothing of a church official.
Are Christians persecuted in your region?
In my territory, there are no indigenous Christians or surviving minorities from pre-Islamic times like in Iraq. As far as foreign Christians are concerned, there is not any active persecution. There are, however, practices that could certainly be construed as having the character of persecution.
What are you thinking of?
In my diocese, a Christian could hardly ever become a citizen. The only exception is Bahrain. If you practice any religion other than Islam, this frequently results in discrimination in one’s profession.
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Pierre Heumann is the Middle East correspondent of the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche.
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41 Comments
1. mike:wouldn’t the opening sentence be more accurate if instead of saying “the difficulties confronted by practicing Christians in ARAB countries” it read “the difficulties confronted by practicing Christians in ISLAMIC countries”?
arab does not equal islamic, and islamic does not equal arab.
Jan 20, 2009 - 1:29 am 2. aloysiusmiller:There is an alternative to dialogue. Someday out of necessity it will move from the unthinkable.
Jan 20, 2009 - 5:28 am 3. e:Its amazing and sad that this is real. Bishop Heumann and his priests have had almost every option available for them to even preach to the faithful cut off. And yet they continue in ways that they can.
Jan 20, 2009 - 5:41 am 4. Laura:So according to the Islamic cult, Obama is officially a Moslem. GREAT! That means that as of today, the Arabs will put down their swords/stones/bazookas/Uzi’s/shoes and embrace their fellow Moslem Obama, renounce Jihad against America and maybe even forgive Israel for her existance. What Hope! What Change! I am getting a tingly feeling down my leg……
Jan 20, 2009 - 6:25 am 5. CJ:Mike:
“arab does not equal islamic, and islamic does not equal arab.”
No one said it did. The Bishop is responsible for all of the countries of Arabia, so that’s what the discussion is about.
That said, what a tremendously difficult task for anyone. God bless him.
Jan 20, 2009 - 6:45 am 6. Anonymous:Let ‘Em build the minaret. It makes a clear aiming point for a G-Dam.
Jan 20, 2009 - 7:09 am 7. Judy, NYC:ask any christian arab if any of this islamic dung has anything to do with jews. nothing. zero. islamics only prayer is to dominate everyone and everything in which we believe. europe, once again, is clueless. and so are we, here. england is a done deal. israel is alone, the one entity with the courage to defeat these medieval ghosts from hell.
Jan 20, 2009 - 7:36 am 8. fred:I could tell that Bishop Hinder has to be very careful about his answers. Folks, please familiarize yourselves with the Islamic texts and with the concept of the Dhimma. The most frustrating thing, for those of us who have spent a lot of time getting up to speed in these matters during the past eight years, is the widespread and glaring ignorance about what Islam really is.
The very best thing would be for all Christians in dar al Islam to immigrate to non-Muslim countries and for non-Muslim countries to expel their Muslim populations. There can never be any real freedom in lands controlled by Islam. Bishop Hinder knows this. Surely he does, but his public statements have to be very carefully worded so as not to be construed by his Muslim masters as a violation of any part of the Dhimma.
Jan 20, 2009 - 8:44 am 9. Bless Israel:thereligionofpeace.com
Yeah right such a peaceful cult!
prophetofdoom.net/prophetof_doom_prologue.islam
The Satanic books words for all to see!
Obsessionthemovie.com
Watch the video!!!
This cult/religion does not want peace with anyone that is not of the Islamic faith!!
Jan 20, 2009 - 8:57 am 10. abu yussif:#5 cj,
ok, so we can exclude from the discussion iran, egypt, pakistan, turkey, or even indonesia? or is this islamic phenomenon described restricted to countries with only arab muslims?
Jan 20, 2009 - 1:01 pm 11. Marc Malone:#10 abu yussif – As far as I know, Turkey is secular by law. In practice, not so much, but the restrictions are, resultantly, far less onerous.
Jan 20, 2009 - 3:15 pm 12. EricG:This spineless coward of a bishop makes me ashamed to be a Catholic Christian. But by the teaching of Jesus Christ, Christians in hostile countries are obligated (not requested, but OBLIGATED) to witness to their faith, and to attract converts. This man is acting contrary to the Christian Gospel in his discouragement of conversions.
Conversion is exactly what the Muslim world needs. Christianity never would have converted empires and kingdoms had worldly, materialistic bishops like Hinder had their way.
Jan 20, 2009 - 4:07 pm 13. fred:Hinder has to take his orders from the Vatican. If they tell him to be non-confrontational, regardless of where he is, with Islam then he must obey BOTH his superiors and his Muslim masters.
I had held out hope that our new Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, would be more stern in his stance with Islam, but he is proving to be as spineless as his cardinals and bishops are. Makes me ashamed to be a Catholic.
What is this world coming to? We are afraid to confront and name evil. We are afraid to proclaim to the world that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, God’s Son, and part of the Trinity. We are ashamed of the Gospel, and seek out safe sinecures in our multi-culti, transnational, emerging world government.
And we all cave in and become dhimmis before the truculent, muscular Ummah…
Jan 20, 2009 - 5:23 pm 14. e:12. EricG: This spineless coward of a bishop makes me ashamed to be a Catholic Christian.
It may seem that way, but the truth is different. Pajamas Media may be mostly sympathetic to his plight, but it only takes one passing jerk to flag an ‘incorrect’ answer and report it to radical Islamists with murderous intent. Bishop Hinder gave answers that won’t bring questions or investigations down on him from hostile governments or words that will be turned to incite a mob.
If he said what you wanted to hear at best he would be kicked out of the area and at worst be killed with several other Christians. I think his continued work, subdued and unspoken is better than adding a few more names to the book of martyrs.
Jan 20, 2009 - 6:39 pm 15. Lemony Snicket:yeah write I’m going to trust the translation of a guy with a name like Rosenthal. wtf is arabia btw?
Jan 20, 2009 - 7:51 pm 16. fred:I don’t think the Church should be in Muslim lands, just as I don’t think Muslims should be in our lands. The only way this thing is going to work is if we rigorously segregate our civilizations. Otherwise we have farces like the situation that this bishop living under the dhimma has to endure.
Islam puts apostates to death. It also puts dhimmis who violate Sharia Law as it defines the dhimma to death. Islam, no matter how you slice and dice it, deals in death.
Jan 20, 2009 - 8:31 pm 17. EricG:e:
Sorry, not buying it. Lying is never permissible, even to achieve a good end. And Bishop Hinder’s words about the refusal to accept converts to Christianity were gratuitous; he could have been non-confrontational, even going so far as saying his flock does not proselytize, without going as far as he did. Even my prudence’s standards, his comments were contrary to the Christian Gospel.
Quite contrary, I think, to Pope Ratzinger’s baptism of Maghdi Allam and his repeated calls for Catholics to evangelize and assert the unique truth of their faith.
Jan 20, 2009 - 8:34 pm 18. Nancy Reyes:a bunch of bull.
A lot of the smaller Gulf states allow Christians and others to quietly practice their religion, and even build them churches.
But my cousin was forced to throw away her rosary when she entered Saudi, and things aren’t much better today…but of course, those who don’t have freedom of religion are only poor Pinoys or Keralan Indians, whereas Saudi Arabia is strong and powerful.
Jan 20, 2009 - 9:25 pm 19. Leroy Hurt:A nuanced interview that indicates the Christian presence in Muslim countries is restricted. However, to get a complete picture of Christian activity, consider interviewing Patrick Lai of Frontiers. There is a lot more activity than meets the eye, and it’s being done legitimately and with host country approval.
Sincerely,
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:24 pm 20. LynnS.:Leroy Hurt
http://www.C-scape Blogazine.net
http://www.YourUnfinishedBusiness.net
I think he probably has a job that not many apply for and reading his careful words is a testament to the danger in that part of the world to practice freedom of religion.
Jan 21, 2009 - 8:00 am 21. fred:EricG,
The reason why Hinder stated that he and his flock do not proselytize is BECAUSE OF THE DHIMMA. One of the conditions which the dhimmi must accept, when living in an Islamic country, is that the dhimmi community MUST NEVER SEEK CONVERTS.
There is a reason for this, and other restrictions imposed under the Dhimma. Muhammad wanted to crush the Christian and Jewish communities which were allowed to survive. That’s why dhimmis are not allowed to build more churches, renovate old ones, build or maintain schools, must never use bells, no audible singing in church, places of worship must not have towers and must be lower than the surrounding Islamic buildings, must wear distinctive clothing to mark themselves as dhimmis, their dwellings must be poorer and lower than Islamic ones, and paying the jizya, the annual poll tax stipulated. There are others as well.
As is typical of most forums here and elsewhere, when the topic is Islam so many of the respondents demonstrate a glaring lack of knowledge about Islam, its scriptures, the history of jihad conquest, and show an obstinate unwillingness to read up on these topics at any depth. People will try to render opinions about Islam that deflect accurate criticism of it, and make it seem more benign that it really is. All of that is EVIDENCE of the dhimmi mentality already operative in the West: if we’re nice to them, they’ll leave us alone and not threaten us. If we give them what they demand they’ll leave us alone.
Jan 21, 2009 - 8:35 am 22. EricG:Fred:
I’m rather well-reads on this subject, and know damn well what the dhimma is. None of which morally or religiously justifies a Christian minister from actively discouraging conversion to Christianity, and actively refusing to receive into the Church those who approach them.
Don’t insult my intelligence.
Jan 21, 2009 - 9:58 am 23. ArabChristian:Christians in the Middle East have to deal with the bigoted actions of hard line Islamists like those in the Gulf countries but if you look at countries ruled by secular regimes like Iraq was or how Syria is,you will see Christians are allowed more freedom but discouraged from accepting converts in order to keep the harmony.That being said,the Baath regime of Syria allows churches to be built and there are still many Christian majority villages all over Syria.
Jan 21, 2009 - 10:27 am 24. Mike T:And Christians are supposed to be willing to die for their faith. Jesus Himself said “whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel will live forever.” That’s not even counting the last commandment that Jesus placed on the church, which we know as the Great Commission, which is to do precisely what you say the Church shouldn’t be doing.
Jan 21, 2009 - 11:37 am 25. susan:“A lot of the smaller Gulf states allow Christians and others to quietly practice their religion, and even build them churches.”
this is a lie, a friend of mine worked on oil tanks and was working around Kuwait. It was hot and he was wearing a jumpsuit and opened up a couple of top buttons of his shirt. A small cross of the size of a coin peeped out. The muslims in charge of filling the tank with oil made a mess and my friend was accused of willing “proselitism” (we are talking a bout 2-3 workers max). The muslims forced him to take off the cross, and put it in a chest drawer for the rest of the work stay.
This is the “mentality” down there. Get used to it.
Jan 21, 2009 - 2:35 pm 26. myth buster:This Bishop is a coward. He does worse than not seeking converts; he actively interferes with conversions. He is a stumbling block to the faithful and ought to be defrocked, if not excommunicated for cowardice. Jesus said, “…cowards…have their lot in the Lake of Fire.” The ellipses include other sinners such as liars, idolaters and murderers. Cowards will share the fate of the scum of the Earth because they are ashamed of the Gospel and fear men more than God.
Jan 21, 2009 - 7:38 pm 27. fred:If the bishop admitted he was seeking or encouraging converts, his life would be forfeit and so would the lives of his flock. Why is it that no one seems to know or understand this? You have to understand that he knows that his answers have public consequences.
And really, I think, the way the interview unfolds and the kind of vague answers he gives ought to be very informative about what it is like living as an infidel in a Muslim land.
I think whatever we judge him to be, coward or diplomat, is irrelevant to the real issue: that even what might appear to some people to be a small gain in religious freedom inside a Muslim land is really a confined, deliberate and exact following of the Dhimma – itself an institution that our distant ancestors knew about and understood but which we moderns have barely the scarcest notion of.
Jan 21, 2009 - 10:09 pm 28. P-nut:Those of you calling this Bishop a coward are idiots. What part of “if he tries to convert people he will be at best expelled, at worst killed” or that ” In Islam apostates are put to death ” do you not understand ? Easy for you to be brave behind your computers. Not so easy when you are surrounded by a people and Governments who have no issue with torturing and killing you and your followers. What good does it do to convert someone just to have him or her murdered by their friends and family ? I’m sure that he does accept converts but must do so in secret,talking about it would get people killed. I don’t believe in any Gods or other fairy-tales but I do think that for those who need it religion is ok and lots of churches do lots of good for people. The catholic Church has at least had an enlightenment and has not gone around murdering people for a long time, Islam on the other hand is a plague, an evil,immoral belief system and an enemy of civilization. Under the conditions I’d say that the Bishop is indeed a brave man to even be where he is.
Jan 22, 2009 - 1:40 am 29. Herschel Smith:Whatever happens to him or not, whatever becomes him or not, whatever becomes the convert to Christianity, for a “bishop” to discourage conversions means that he isn’t a Christian. If one believes that there is only one way to God and it is through Jesus Christ, to discourage that is to condemn a soul to death. Hence, the “bishop” either condemns prospective converts to death by discouraring conversion, or he doesn’t believe basic Christian doctrine. Either way, this is a less than meaningful interview.
Jan 22, 2009 - 7:00 am 30. Mike T:The Bishop can say one thing, while doing another. Christians are allowed to tell reasonable lies in order to protect others. Jesus Himself set up the principle for this when He broke the Sabbath to heal a man on the Sabbath. It would not surprise me if the Bishop isn’t flat out lying when he says that he discourages conversion.
Jan 22, 2009 - 7:57 am 31. Mike T:During the age of the Roman Empire this was an issue as well. More from the government persecuting Christians as potential political problems, but Christians were very much personae non gratae in Rome. Guess who ended up winning that conflict?
Jan 22, 2009 - 7:59 am 32. Herschel Smith:Mike T makes a great point. I had not considered that possibility. It’s possible that the bishop believes that he is being watched, even with this interview. In that case, also considering the example of Rahab, I approve of this lie, if indeed it is a lie. I truly hope that someone who considers himself a Christian doesn’t attempt to dissuade conversion to Christianity. Thanks for the additional thoughts, Mike T.
Jan 22, 2009 - 8:29 am 33. Mike T:He most likely is being watched. I would be surprised if the Saudi government didn’t have a full time, if small, intelligence or police unit watching him because of his level of prominence. The moment he says that he’s cool with converts, they’d broadcast that to every Muslim state in the region.
My guess is that he is not trying to convert people by preaching, but rather by witnessing which gives him a plausible deniability.
Jan 22, 2009 - 10:26 am 34. Knighst13:Man, I’m really thankful that I don’t live in the middle east.
Jan 22, 2009 - 1:41 pm 35. Michael J. Melton:P-Nut says: “Those of you calling this Bishop a coward are idiots…if he tries to convert people he will be at best expelled, at worst killed…I’m sure that he does accept converts but must do so in secret,talking about it would get people killed.” and then also adds: “I don’t believe in any Gods or other fairy-tales but I do think that for those who need it religion is ok and lots of churches do lots of good for people.” Of course if religion is merely a comforting fantasy and/or do-gooder’s club then P-Nut is absolutely correct. However, practically all Christians and their Churches and almost assuredly the Bishop himself don’t view themselves this way. Once you concede your faith is a sham, why bother with it at all? If such a religious leader really had this attitude I suppose charlatan would be a much better title than coward. I hope he wrestles with his decisions and short-comings as do the rest of us as he tries to perceive God’s will in this painfully difficult situation.
Jan 22, 2009 - 1:44 pm 36. Camo:The bishop’s quote, “In my territory, there are no indigenous Christians or surviving minorities from pre-Islamic times like in Iraq.”
Why? Because indiginous Christians fled, were murdered or converted to Islam over the years to save their skin.
to those who so readily launch diatibes against the bishop from the safety of your computer, try living over here in the middle east. Even in “moderate” Turkey, our priest has to live in a near fortress to keep from getting beat up (or worse) on a more routine basis.
May peace be to you all.
Jan 23, 2009 - 6:07 am 37. LynnS.:I agree about not judging Bishop Hinder too harshly. Think about the story of Peter and his denying that he knew Jesus. I think that is a warning to us that we should wonder and think about what we would do in the same situation as him.
Jan 23, 2009 - 6:20 am 38. EricG:Mike T:
I don’t know from where you get that notion of a “reasonable lie”. Lying is a violation of the natural law, and against divine precept, at least as orthodox Christians understand it.
The fact that Rahab (in the Old Testament) lied does not make lying a good. Sheesh! So many fundamentalist Christians are so philosophically brain dead, they actually would condone sodomy and child-rape, if only they could be convinced the Bible condoned it!
P-Nut:
We understand you loud and clear. What I and others are insisting is that the Bishop could have kept his damn trap shut and not even brought up the subject of conversions. Prudent silence! But by lying he goes OUT OF HIS WAY to commit a sin. And in any event, I don’t believe he is lying, which is sinful still (by Christian standards).
Sometimes it is permissible to deceive by prudent silence, or to not give away certain facts when not prompted to, but it can never be right for good men to lie in order to achieve some nebulous “greater good”. That’s consequentialism at its worst, and not a far cry to the lying (taqiyya) Muslim jihadists engage in.
Jan 23, 2009 - 3:41 pm 39. NB:Thanks EricG for being the one to call shenanigans on the “lying for good” thing. That’s an Islamic tenet (the taqiyya as Eric pointed out), not Christian doctrine.
Matthew 7:18 comes to mind.
Jan 24, 2009 - 3:51 am 40. EricG:NB:
Orthodox Christians have always held that it is NEVER permissible to lie, whatever the stakes. In grave circumstances, one may withhold certain facts, or may make statements which, truthful in themselves, are deceitful under the circumstances. Examples abound of clerics and religious during World War II finding very creative ways to defy the Nazis and avoid the twin evils of lying and giving away the fact that they were hiding Jews.
Now granted: Sometimes it’s hard to be “creative” on the spot, in a life-or-death situation, and surely God in his infinite mercy understand the duress one might be in when he lies under those circumstances. But an interview with a bishop (and one not even being interviewed by a Muslim source!), where said bishop goes OUT OF HIS WAY to volunteer the fact that he ACTIVELY discourages conversion to Christianity from Islam is not such a circumstance.
Jan 24, 2009 - 5:35 pm 41. P-nut:At what point does the rest of the world give up the notion that all religions and all cultures are equal. It seems like plenty of people know it but no one “officially” wants to come right out and condemn Islam and Arabic culture for the backwards,divisive,predatory,tribalism that it is. When do reasonable,civilized people and countries decide that the abuse of human rights inherent in Islam must not be allowed to continue ? When does the charade that we all want the same things end ? The Islamists are a danger to all freedom and peace loving people,they must be stopped,so when do we begin ? When it’s too late and their power is too much ? Already in Europe free speech is done for. There are parts of European cities that the police won’t even go in, because of the Muslims.I read the Compass.org website and see how Christians are persecuted,even in Asia by Muslims but I don’t hear anyone defending these poor people…what gives ? Where is the mighty Vatican Church ? Too busy counting their money ? the same church that mobilizes to hide criminal pedophiles can’t be bothered to fight for its people ?
Jan 26, 2009 - 8:08 am