Pajamas Media

33 Comments

1. Typewriter King:

Age discrimination laws even affect coaching jobs in professional sports. There, where winning and losing is obvious and exact records are kept, one would think it would be easy to prove a coach wasn’t sacked merely because of his age. Not so. I can find incidents of discrimination suits for coaches, as well.

Oct 12, 2008 - 4:06 am 2. Ken Besig:

The chances of getting rid of stupid, dangerous, and uneconomic discrimination laws are somewhere between slim and none, and slim has left town.

Oct 12, 2008 - 4:07 am 3. Strange One:

The laws are unnecessary for some but, others would be helpless against large corporations without them. I am currently 51. I have found myself subject to two forms of discrimination but I’m not the type to sue. I deal with them myself.

I even had one employer that was stupid enough when riled to put it in writing. He was subcontracted by an international company, not only did age factor into getting the job but, when completing all of the preliminary testing for Employee Health, I had to pass respiratory testing. I passed the testing but, by honestly filling out the preliminary question form, the discover that I’m epileptic (complex partial seizures, controlled.)

Two weeks later I am let go. The reason: Failure to pass respirator testing. Not only that but, in subsequent emails with a company manager where I produce a:) a letter from one physician stating that it is safe for me to perform any work with no restrictions. and b:) a letter from my Neurologist (a professor of Neurology at a leading medical school) stating that it is safe for me to wear a respirator finally, resulted in a scathing email (that’s puting it in writing as far as the courts are concerned) explaining that the head of the plant belonging to the international company told him, point blank, that he did not want a F’ing epileptic working in his plant.

I don’t need lawyers. I gathered up all the paperwork that I had. My copy of the respirator testing, stating that I passed. The manager’s letter, and the Dr.’s letters and scanned and attached each to an email to the CFO of the International Corporation in Hamburg, Germany stating in the first sentence that I had no intentions of suing them; that they weren’t worth my time but, as a major shareholder, I was concerned about future gaffes toward someone who might not be so forgiving.

Heads rolled down the chain of command in both companies. Both Companies “spun off” the smaller units locally as separate “new companies” in which the original companies still held a major share as a precaution.

Leave it to say, three of the four companies, are,now, trading below $1.00 and will soon fall off the boards if I have anything to do with it,all four will. I’m still shorting the fourth.

You reap what you sow.

Oct 12, 2008 - 5:25 am 4. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Skewed Perspectives

How old is Melissa?

Point!

Advantage, the more mature.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Can’t wait to see HER trying to get a job when she’s 50.

Oct 12, 2008 - 8:12 am 5. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. I knew a manager in Southland Corp., think 7-11, whose position was abolished and he terminated, a few months before his stock-options became completely vested.

Six months later, the corporation re-activated the position and hired some ‘kid’.

That’s just ONE of a number of reports I can provide.

Oct 12, 2008 - 8:16 am 6. Matt from FL:

I work for a company that does CNC machining. We are located in a part of FL that has a great deal of experienced workers who have worked in the aerospace industry for many years. These guys have talent and experience that a lot of our applicants do not, but we seldom hire anyone over 40. Why? Because some of the ones we’ve hired in the past didn’t take the job seriously, Machining in general is easier now with advanced CNCs, but these guys would just show up for a paycheck, and their age made it extremely difficult to fire them unless we caught them sleeping on camera on SEVERAL occasions. We get enough layabout screw-ups under the age of 25. We fire one of them for incompetence, nobody notices, but we fire someone who does less work than that 19 year old bum we just tossed, and we have to ask our lawyer in NY first. That’s why it’s hard for older people to find work. Anti-Discrimination laws interfere with the Free Market and it hurts those it intends to help the most. It’s easier to not hire them in the first place, and I can be fired for pointing it out, because I’m under 30. See how that works?

Oct 12, 2008 - 8:46 am 7. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Matt from FL
RE: Maybe….

We fire one of them for incompetence, nobody notices, but we fire someone who does less work than that 19 year old bum we just tossed, and we have to ask our lawyer in NY first. — Matt from FL

…your company could take a page from Southland’s Human Relations ‘playbook’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. How old are you? And what position do you hold in your company?

Oct 12, 2008 - 9:15 am 8. myth buster:

Nobody should ever be fired purely for being too old, but the employer has a right to set minimum requirements for job performance, and if aging has left the employee unable to fulfill basic, relevant requirements, that employee should be fired. Now, in the case of stock options, all options should vest automatically upon termination, or at least at a pro-rated rate.

Oct 12, 2008 - 11:20 am 9. Marc Malone:

It is easy to lose sight of the reason the law was put into place initially. Older people were being let go to deny them their benefits. The cost/benefit analysis was working against them. Nevermind that they earned those benefits over time.

Once let go, they couldn’t find work again at the appropriate pay scale. Everything they ever worked for went down the drain, because some 35-yr-old with an MBA makes his decision based on sheer numbers, instead of making a wise valuation. They have to do this, actually, because making a wise decision means staking your career on someone else proving you right. And even then you’re wrong.

See, it doesn’t matter that the older guy might do twice the work of a younger guy, because of his knowledge and experience. It doesn’t matter that he makes far less mistakes, and so actually costs you less. It only matters that people game the system to get ahead, which leads to less competence in upper-management. That makes these laws, like some unions, a necessary evil. The laws just need to be better defined; more narrow.

It is a betrayal of older employees to make a deal with them, to provide long-term incentives, only to have the next generation of managers renege on the deal. Without some kind of protection from these shenanigans, we all lose the incentive to become highly-skilled at what we do. After all, we don’t wnat to train ourselves right out of the market. We also don’t want our salary potential capped. “You can stay, but no matter how valuable you actually are to our company, if I try to pay you more, we’ll both get the axe, no matter how right I am.”

As an example, I’ve known a few schoolteachers in that position. They got their Masters and other certifications, and now can’t teach, because schools need x number of bodies, and the better teachers are too expensive. They demand too much salary. Nevermind that they get the job done. They don’t fit into the budget.

This came out kind of jumbled, but I think you get my point.

Oct 12, 2008 - 11:33 am 10. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Interesting…

…that the bimbo who started this thread hasn’t identified her age.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. For all of those aghast that I should as a woman how old she is….

…..the Army stopped commissioning officers as ‘gentleman’ a few years before I was commissioned. And I don’t give a flip what you think….

Oct 12, 2008 - 11:54 am 11. Marc Malone:

Hey, Chuckles, you’re showing your age. Better be careful, or they’ll be calling you things like grouchy, mean-spirited, or (gasp) curmudgeonly. All true, by the way.

Oct 12, 2008 - 12:35 pm 12. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Marc Malone
RE: My ‘Age’

Hey, Chuckles, you’re showing your age. — Marc Malone

Contrary to modern [un]think, I’m not ashamed of my age. Nor my experiences. Nor my maturity.

These ‘kids’ seem to resent their immaturity. Especially when it comes to garnering a ‘job’ in the ever restrictive job-market. Look at this topical thread.

RE: The Naming of ‘Names’

….they’ll be calling you things like grouchy, mean-spirited, or (gasp) curmudgeonly. All true, by the way. — Marc Malone:

I know curmudgeons. I have to deal with some of them on a face-to-face basis on a regular basis. Their only problem is that they have only one ’song’ and they sing it every opportunity, appropriate or not. Mostly the latter….to their discredit.

As for being called such…..well….I’ve been abused by the best and the ‘youngsters’ here couldn’t hold a candle for 2 seconds compared to Colonel ‘No Slack’ Stack. [Note: I almost came to blows with him over some silliness about integrity and duty while I commanded an infantry company and HE was my battalion commander. And I was recovering from a broken leg at the time. A break he was an instrumental part in my acquiring.]

These people haven’t got a clue…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You haven't LIVED until you've almost DIED.]

Oct 12, 2008 - 2:18 pm 13. Larry J:

Personally, I find this a rather poorly written article. It seems the only older workers the author believes exists are the “unqualified, lazy, unethical, stupid, or antisocial”, as if no younger workers exhibit the same traits.

I’m fortunate to work for a company that values experience. In my department, I’d guess the average age is about 50 (I’m 51 and far from the oldest). We hire people who have experience in military technology (primarily space and aviation) and train them to do our work. It’s easier to do that than it is to take someone younger and teach them what they need to know about space. Our customers love us because we help them design and manage very complex systems. Younger people – even the technically capable ones – just lack the experience to make the right decisions.

Some companies have a business model of foregoing experience to hire cheaper labor. They win contracts based on low price, not technical capability or past performance. These companies have the reputation of dumping older employess because they tend to draw higher salaries. Very often, you get what you pay for. You want cheap, you get cheap. However, quality endures. You want quality, well, it’s going to cost you.

Oct 12, 2008 - 6:06 pm 14. Marc Malone:

Chuck – You do know I was having you on, don’t you? Besides, I suspect we may be about the same age. I’m 47, and unashamed of it.

Oct 12, 2008 - 6:24 pm 15. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Marc Malone
RE: Yeah….

You do know I was having you on, don’t you? — Marc Malone

That was for these other people here.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[If youth only knew. If age only could.]

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:52 am 16. MarkD:

There are laws like this because there are companies that have arbitrarily fired older workers to cut down on their salaries and pension expenses. One reaps what one sows.

I hope Dr Clouthier works for herself in private practice, lest her partners one day force her out. After all, a younger chiropractor is going to be hungrier and willing to work for less. If not today, then surely tomorrow.

Oct 13, 2008 - 6:51 am 17. Stan D.:

In 2002 I was 64 and lost my job as District Sales Manager with one of the divisions of I-R. I had superlative reviews for almost 20 years and was in great health traveling 3 days a week. The company re-arranged the group and that gave them the right to let go 12 of us of which only one was under 40. I went to the EEOC and it was apparent that they were only interested in juicy racial cases and didn’t give hoot about the problems of some middle class white man.
One guy sued, although everyone said he was crazy, and he won after 3 years. It was too late for the rest of us, but I would like to sue the EEOC for not doing their job, as one stubbborn plaintiff showed the company violated the law. Racial and age laws should be done away with and the huge government bureaucracies they have created should be eliminated. They are expensive window dressing as far as I am concerned.

Oct 13, 2008 - 7:05 am 18. SGT Ted:

Maybe if private companies had done the right thing in the first place and had not screwed over their older employees to make a quick buck and likely a bonus to the bean counter who came up with the horrid idea to rip off their most loyal employees, there wouldn’t have been the outcry that led to age discrimination laws.

US Businesses lost sight of the fact that loyalty is a two way street and they didn’t want to honor their employee contracts, looking for ways to avoid the big payout that their older loyal workers had earned. So, they decided to screw them out of it and instead, earned Government oversight and more attornies fees. They achieved this oversight the old fashioned way: They EARNED it with their reprehensable actions in the first place.

Oct 13, 2008 - 7:07 am 19. Mike T:

It is easy to lose sight of the reason the law was put into place initially. Older people were being let go to deny them their benefits. The cost/benefit analysis was working against them. Nevermind that they earned those benefits over time.

If the cost/benefit analysis is working against you, it means that you’re not worth nearly as much to the company as you used to be. Many older employees are like this. They fail to consider that since health insurance can go up dramatically with old age because of the myriad problems the elderly face, that their employer may be paying out the nose for an employee who is only marginally better than they were 10 years ago.

People used to compensate for this by being expected to save up enough money to pay their way through old age. Not anymore. That would ruin the American Dream of prosperity at limited expense to you. To borrow from Biden’s rubbish about fairness, it wouldn’t be fair to tell an older person that they’ll have to forfeit their benefits, and take a several thousand dollar credit toward buying their own insurance if they want to remain employed.

Oct 13, 2008 - 8:21 am 20. OmegaPaladin:

Dr. Clouthier takes a worthless position here. This is a complete non-starter of an issue. Arguing for the repeal of anti-discrimination laws is political suicide. Now, I’m sure she does not support discrimination. However, it is such an easy argument to make that no politician would dare touch these laws for fear of being seen as a bigot. I really think the good doctor is a bit too blase about being fired, but that might just because I’ve actually been unemployed.

As for “Life is Unfair”, that doesn’t mean that we should try to make it more unfair. These comments are the capitalist equivalent of the “Internet tough guy”.

Oct 13, 2008 - 9:44 am 21. jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet:

From 1961 to 1963, I worked for a fortune 500 HR department, and since 1963, have represented employers and employees in discrimination cases. Here’s my take. Well-advised employers can get rid of bad employees or upgrade their staffs without resorting to unlawful discrimination if they use basic common sense and avoid knee-jerk employment decisions.

Professional advice before making a decision (even with today’s high hourly rates) costs less than $500.00 and pays dividends. Keep in mind, making a mistake in a discharge and rehire costs more than a potential lawsuit. It can be very costly in training and lack of continuity.

It is much harder for a plaintiff to win a discrimination case than most people imagine, but shooting from the hip in hiring and firing is usually stupid.

Oct 13, 2008 - 1:41 pm 22. 49erDweet:

The year I turned 50 I hurt my hip in an industrial accident caused by a poor decision from a freshly graduated “manager” in the large, multi-national company for whom I worked. For two years I had been servicing a municipality with contract services and had been receiving an “outstanding” rating.

During my rehabilitation period two more new graduate “managers” came on board the local outlet of the firm and decided my position was “too expensive”, and so terminated it – and me. During the next 36 months the company hired (and sometimes fired) ninteen other employees because they would or could not turn out the work I had been doing. At that point the municipality terminated the services of the firm for unsatisfactory performance and let the contract out to a competitor. By this time the local firm’s branch had become so disorganized and costly the national office closed it.

All the workers had to scramble for other jobs, but the three juvenile non-performing “managers” were “saved” and transferred to other locales. I just shook my head.

The point? I actually agree with the author’s pov, but also understand that “businesses” – like people – do not always know best.

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:32 pm 23. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Heh

From 1961 to 1963, I worked for a fortune 500 — jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet

From 1995 to 2003, I worked for a fortune 500 company, USWest/Qwest/DexMedia.

When Qwest bought out USWest and then sold my division to Carlyle Group, the new ‘owners’, told us that they were going to have to raise our medical insurance coverage payment as follows:

• Married with children 42%
• Married without children 33%
• Single without children 0%

I did some research and determined that the insurance industry was anticipating a 16% increase in premiums, nation-wide.

THEN Carlyle Group told us that they had high hopes of improved ‘profitability’. This despite the fact that things were sinking.

Three guesses as to the source of their improved bottom line….first two don’t count….

That’s when I tendered my 2-weeks notice.

That’s a new ‘twist’ on anti-age discrimination laws. Sort of like a ’singles-only’ condo community, on a corporate scale.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Lawyer, n., one skilled at circumventing the Law.]

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:30 pm 24. Marc Malone:

All here arguing in support of the laws say the same thing. Young, fast-tracked managers make the same bad decisions. They look at cost per body. They have no idea which qualities make a company run best. These valuations aren’t taught in MBA classes. So, we have regulations to protect us from their ignorance.

Oct 14, 2008 - 4:59 am 25. Cybergeezer:

I have experienced age discrimination in many circumstances. On job interviews, one of the first comments has been “How old are you?”. I have called back to employers where I had a great interview, and asked what happened; I was told they thought I would be too old to keep up the pace!
Talking with other skilled craftsman, we had much in common since, younger workers, with much less experience and skills, would criticize us for our age and lack of stamina.
When you are skilled and experienced, you can accomplish much more with a lot less energy.
They hire individuals who show promise and can be an asset to a company; Yet, when they become that very asset, they are conspired against for replacement by a cheaper imitation.
I am retired, now, because I refused to be a subordinate to an individual (younger than my own son) whom had never supervised people before, and did not really care to acquire the skills of a good manager (and yes,more age discrimination). Had I not retired, I would have looked for other employment or started another business. Early in my work life I had a different job every two months for about one year because I ended up not liking the employer.
In my case, I have acquired what I ultimately worked for. And kept my pride doing it.

Oct 14, 2008 - 12:09 pm 26. JoeC:

Chuckie. Worked for HP. They had the “show fairness in layoffs across the board” attitude, even supported with charts and graphs showing how they weren’t discriminating against my age group….but when I started asking around, all of my peers from one of the acquired companies were… wait for it…surprise! In my (50+) age group.

I had/have a peer/friend who fit that profile of “replaced six months later” in the same position, lower salary. His problem is he got a better paying job with better benefits somewhere else with no travel required.

When I was in my 30’s I couldn’t believe that a company would get rid of their most experience and loyal champions. My older peers and friends just told me “wait, you’ll see.” So I waited in disbelief….until “I saw”.

So I have tried to drum into my 20-something son’s heads the new attitude of “Get yours while you can because the company will try and screw you out of it when you reach 50.” Save now. Plan for early retirement at 50 and your next career. Even if it DOESN’T happen to them, they’ll be in a much better position.

BTW, getting laid off was the best thing that happened (so far) to me. I got a much better paying job as a contractor, working from home, no travel, albeit with NO benefits.

Oct 15, 2008 - 7:27 am 27. P. Shahir:

I remember a true incident filmatized about the Holocaust.
It was of an elderly Jew who had great dignity, character and standing for his services who was forced to wear a yellow David’s star mark and with a drum hanging on his neck at his front, he was forced to beat at the drum as a signal of public shaming.
Here we had an example of horrendous discrimination – not just against a Jew, but against an Elderly, who had served whole his life serving the community.
During Nazism, all who were disabled or ill could be considered for murderous Eutanasia.
I have a long history of dubbing new words such as Islamophobia ( during the hate crimes and genocide against the MIXED Bosnian society ) . Yankeephobia or Ameriphobia were others – and yet GERIAPHOBIA or GERIPHOBIA is a favorite I interoduced years ago.

A Danish ultranationalist extremist politian Glistrup wanted to remove laws that protect against discrimination, vilification, and denigration of special groups. He claimed it was contrary to the ‘freedom of speech’ – which in Danish is termed by freedom of utterance ( in contrast to way of expression or freedom of conscience ).
I wrote to parliament and underlined that freedoms can be only maintained by ensuring responsibility and respect of others, as those laws in essence are to protect ANY form of vilification or demeaning, as GERIAPHOBIA when one may say ‘remove that old man ! ‘ Such an expression is sign of inhumanity.
In the work place, an employer can request someone who can carry coal up a mine shaft, and lift certain machinery, while others can be required to help with meticulous planning and can be subjected to tests where human life can be at play.
It is utterly inhumane to carry out lynch populism and persecution against an eldery in unchartered tasks, specially when an applicant has proven proficiency and capable of working ‘in tandem’ with others. The newer Handicap Conventions even go further to help raise dignity of the disabled so that they can be full fledged members of society.
I have looked into research that proved that hard drugs and unhealthy habits of very young people using crack coke and Ice’ ( – and EVEN certain medications as Paxil ) , can cause damage by causing erroneous replication of DNA strands !
My inference is that DNA damage due to hard drugs condoning, chemicals and bad lifestyle, was FAR WORSE than DNA errors found in healthy aging persons, men, who could have healthy children in later life. The Prophet Abraham was of a very high age when he had his first children, and even more later …. forefathers to great people !
Therefore, good striving people must be allowed to have children, so their lifestruggles be rewarded and defended, while I am frustrated over the lack of campaign attention over the abuse of hard drugs that were the core of Usama bin Ladin’s fundraising in Afghanistan – AND other Jihadists who were often drugged before suicide operations. Today unfortunately, hard drugs are rendering the US economy bancrupt from the INSIDE, as children’s future are jeapardized and destroyed by hard drugs. These have lead to most horrific crimes of all kinds, and unfathomable vast damages to National and World economy !!
I hope these themes could have been discussed during Presidential debates, for they are urgent non-political realities needing to be dealt with.
Elderly need greatest respect be helped towards lifequality, specially those who have a zeal to serve !
In parts of Europe, medicinal control agencies try to forbid simple supplements such as Melatonin, that are invaluable for elderly with parkinsonims, eye problems etc etc.
They even push the elderly into hospice-like homes, and give them strong drugs.
We must all respect and remember great men and women as Helen Keller, President Roosvelt, ( President Teddy Roosvelt ) who statuated respect and dignity, and President Ronald Reagan whose age experience helped break the ice with Soviet President Gorbachev, and removed the Iron curtain !! – for without them, where would we be today ?????????

Oct 16, 2008 - 2:06 pm 28. P. Shahir:

PS re: swift formulation error* :
Elderly need greatest respect and must* be* helped towards lifequality, – specially those who have a zeal to serve !

ALL elderly deserve love and respect .
However, we must seek to realize peoples positive potentials and encourage them to be productive.
Even elderly pensioners have the right to better health assistance so they could recuperate towards productivity. Treat others as you would like to be treated.
Even people with dubious past lifestyles have a right to learn, realize, and achieve beyond shortcomings of the past. Public services and employers could gain reciprocally by encouraging and appreciating the elderly, EVEN for a few hours a week !! Good for the economy ! – positive attitude is only way in these harsh times. Encourage others, and be encouraged too !!
Understanding is of the essence.

Oct 16, 2008 - 3:18 pm 29. first history:

I support the proposition age, race, and sex discrimination laws should be repealed. Not only do these laws violate the freedom of association, their repeal would make the workplace truly competitive. Businesses spend more time filling out forms, surveys, hosting investigations, etc. which can be better used to creating wealth.

The whiners above who couldn’t cut it in the business world should stop and think whether that is where they belong. They should look into lefty non-profts and government that give a da**.

Oct 16, 2008 - 6:41 pm 30. Chuck Pelto:

TO: first history
RE: And….

….your age is ‘what’?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Oct 17, 2008 - 5:40 am 31. ProgMeister:

Hey, Melissa …

Tell me why I should believe some little kiddie like you who couldn’t make it into med school knows a damn thing about age discrimination law or lawsuits? Next time, why don’t you turn off the stupid television shows and get the kids off your head before you start writing; who knows, you might even make a coherent, evidence-based argument instead of trotting out the same tired party-line crap. Do you have the slightest idea of how many age discrimination suits are filed each year? Who typically wins?

In a truly free market the smart and talented always succeed.

let me know when we have free markets, ok?

meanwhile, when you have nothing to say, don’t blog.

Oct 17, 2008 - 1:19 pm 32. first history:

Chuckie:

None of your da*m business. BTW, the same goes for race and sexual harrassment laws, and all that other PC crap. Since when has PM been taken over by the PC crowd? These laws impose unbelieveable costs on the American economy at time when it doesn’t need it. If you support these PC tought control laws, blog over at DailyKos and MyDD, where you can navel gaze all you want. The rest of us will get off our butts and work to make America great.

Oct 18, 2008 - 9:47 am 33. old and in the way:

What would a 35 year old, female chiropractor know about the realities of age discrimination? Nada. Her piece above is all emoting, with very few facts and little logic. Before she opens her mouth and displays her ignorance, she should do some research. She would learn a lot. E.g., when she says that the laws hurt those they are intended to protect, perhaps she should take a look at some of the Latin American countries where there are no anti-discrimination laws. In some of those countries, it’s near impossible for anyone over 35 to obtain professional employment, due to a bias towards youth. Or she could have read any website or blog regarding careers (WSJ, e.g.) and she would find that white males over 50 consistently report that they are overtly discriminated against, simply because of their age. I never would have believed it when I was 35, but at 52, I now know it’s very real. As perhaps Jerry Garcia knew, there’s a big difference between “just a touch of grey”, and being completely grey, especially when it comes to employment opportunities.

Nov 25, 2008 - 8:36 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: