70 Comments

1. Pragmatist:

What do Communists, Socialists , Clerical Dictators, South America Dictators, Green NAZIS, Mohammedans, Islamophiles, Antisemites, Israel haters, UN morons and PC MC moonbats all have in common.

They all love the Obamanation.

Now if that does not tell you about the nature of the man you are beyond redemption.

Oct 1, 2009 - 1:24 am 2. Noah Guttman:

As a Canadian born Israeli, I think perhaps I can simplify the nature of this division.

Many north american Jews feel that they should have equal say in how Israel is run as us actual Israelis. They feel that whatever financial support that they give to the state of Israel entitles them to this.

Israelis on the other hand, know that north-americans in general (including north-american jews) are ignorant as to what actually goes on in Israel and to the challenges that face Israelis. Reading a newspaper or even several is nowhere even close to what is needed understand the situation in Israel. And most of what is reported in English is so utterly distorted and filled with so many provable falsehoods. It is not surprising that there is a divergence of opinion as to the best course of action.

What amazes me is the arrogance of so many American Jews who seem to honestly believe that they know better than the people who are actually here.

Oct 1, 2009 - 3:19 am 3. Lauren:

Leftist American Jews and Israelis, unfortunately, have tons in common – they think that the government should run everything, be involved in everything, pay for health care, take care of anyone who can’t (or won’t) take care of himself, etc.

The big – and I mean HUGE – divergence is that American Jews by and large seem to have no understanding whatsoever of the idea that totally baseless hatred and an implacable will to commit genocide still exist in some societies. They can’t imagine the idea of 10 km being the difference between normal life and constant rocket attacks on their houses and they certainly can’t fathom the idea of their sons involved in military operations like cast lead – going on a half an hour away from home. (Just like Israelis can’t understand having to brainwash their children not to talk to strangers, or to stay away from heroin). What counts as “political opinions” to American Jews are matters of life and death for us in Israel. Take away that nice big Atlantic ocean between you and the insanity of the Arab world, and with it you will lose the luxury of being ultra-liberal – it’s as simple as that.

Oct 1, 2009 - 3:47 am 4. David Thomson:

“…and returned with two tablets, on which were etched the New Deal.”

FDR and the New Deal are of secondary importance. It’s the secularism! Today’s elites of all major religious persuasions are first, last, and foremost are pro-abortion. That’s the beginning and end of the entire matter. Alan Dershowitz makes it clear as day: “The major difference between Melanie Phillips and me is that I want Jews to remain Democrats – if they support, as I do, liberal principles such as a women’s right to choose abortion, the rights of gays and lesbians to equal justice, and other progressive policies.”

Dershowitz and the other secularist Jews lie to themselves. They assert their fear of right-wing Christians—while ignoring the harsh fact that they are also rejecting the values of their own Jewish religious traditions. The number one killer of Jews today is not the Nazis, but Jewish women killing their own unborn babies.

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:01 am 5. genghis:

American Liberal Jews in some sense, buy into Holocaust denial. They have achieved affluence, comfort and a sense of security insulating them from the reality of the Holocaust and the forces that nearly exterminated their forebears. This is delusional naivetee in the extreme. Quite sensibly, the Israeli Jew views the world a bit differently. But history tends to repeat itself. If the contemporary Liberal Jew believes that has current position in society is permanent, he is mistaken. Things change. Survival issues suddenly become more important then choosing the correct Cabernet. The question is, however, will that realization be too late?

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:22 am 6. Alex Bensky:

Commentary has an interesting article in the current issue on the Marranos–Jews in Portugal and Spain who, after forced conversions, secretly maintained Jewish beliefs and practices while outwardly conforming to the standards of the society in which they lived.

It struck me that many leftist Jews are in a sense the reverse: They maintain an outward stance of Jewishness but their prime, inward loyalty is to leftism. This is by no means true of all liberal and leftist Jews but it seems to me indubitable that is for, say, J Street.

I used to consider myself a liberal, but that was when liberalism meant something different. And today all I can do is echo Lezlek Kolakowski in a different situation: “If that is left then hell, no, I am not left and do not wish to be.”

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:42 am 7. Right Church, Wrong Pooh:

What’s the deal with trying to shame American Jews into supporting Israel? They don’t care anything more about what happens to Israel than the majority of black people; referring to themselves as Afro-Americans in the USA give a damn about what happens to Africa. Start with Barrack Hussein Obama’s brother that lives in a mud hut for an example.

Israel’s strongest support in America comes from the far right; those people that still believe in fearing God, love of their country, willingness to sacrifice instead of always taking and screwing any and everyone that they come across. This is the way it has been since day one, May 15th, 1941. Election 2008 wasn’t any different and there is absolutely no reason to think that it will heal itself in the future.

Cherish and nourish those of us in America that you know care instead of trying to suck blood out of a bunch of creeps that display the Jewish religion like a hood ornament on both of their faces.

That means that Americans; white, black, yellow, whatever elected “the most treacherous and anti-Israel administration ever to come to power.”

Then when the left’s wailing and moaning; which has already started becomes so loud that it is unbearable, don’t cast your pearls to them least they will turn and rend you again. Let them die and be done with the problem.

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:44 am 8. Right Church, Wrong Pooh:

May 15th, 1948 not 1941

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:46 am 9. Jack in Silver Spring:

Excellent!!

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:52 am 10. biblio44:

“Given a choice between ties to Israel and commitments to leftist politics, American Jews will choose their politics.”

Actually, Professor Miller, we have a commitment to Jewish principles which preclude our joining the birthers, death-panelers, Beckers, O’Reillyers, Paliners…. Feh! Treif!

Oct 1, 2009 - 5:55 am 11. Ruvy:

American Jews (or North American Jews if you are a Canadian) have mostly decided to cut themselves off from us. Fine. Let them tread behind their phoney messiah to the depths of sheol. We in Israel, particularly those of us who believe in G-d will seek Redemption. They walk their path – I walk mine.

MY message to American “liberals” who happen to have been born Jews:

Bye bye. We do not need you, your moralizing garbarge and most especially your money. Send it to the Red Cross, the Catholic Church or LAMBDA or the PLO. But don’t taint us with it. And don’t taint us with your alleged “values”. When your “interfaith” neighbors turn on you and call you “yids and yids kids”, or “the children of monkeys and dogs” and beat you bloody – then will you learn who is right and who is wrong. Too late wil you learn the difference between the quick and the dead.

Oct 1, 2009 - 6:56 am 12. Kate Rafferty:

If Jews on the left can’t honor their religion, their ancestors and the bounty of wisdom, morality and ethics they have inherited, I say let them twist in the wind. I’m not Rebbe Schneerson, I’m not a tzadik. Let them return or not without me. I’m tired of these whining traitors by whose perfidious actions they would not only take down their own stupid useless selves but the rest of us as well.

Oct 1, 2009 - 7:04 am 13. L.Jay:

Dear Bilbo44, Be aware that if (some would say when) anti semitism flares here as it has in too many other of our Socialist leaning Sharia accomodating friends; it is the Becks, Palins, & O’Reillys who will risk their all to defend us while you and your ilk hovel in a dark corner wondering “what did we do wrong?

Oct 1, 2009 - 7:14 am 14. Prologue:

Ruvy, we are not all lost, only the most loud-mouthed among us. Don’t count us out just yet.

Oct 1, 2009 - 7:23 am 15. Mike:

Bilbo44

Great, another self-hating Jew. You leftist JINO’s are fearing the wrong side. Throughout history its the leftists that have been the virulent anti-semites. Why don’t you get your history from someplace besides Hollywood fiction.

Oct 1, 2009 - 7:30 am 16. Tom Holsinger:

They also place their leftist politics ahead of their own personal surival. We’ve seen this before.

Oct 1, 2009 - 8:22 am 17. mingus:

BIBLIO44

Very noble of you. Will the last one into the oven, please close the door. Some people are too dumb to learn from prior experience. Enjoy your smug delusion of moral superiority while you can.

Oct 1, 2009 - 8:36 am 18. ahad ha'amoratsim:

biblio44, it seems that those same Jewish values don’t stop you from joining the likes of ACORN, Jimmy Carter, J Street, Michael Moore, Jeremiah Wright, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Eric Holder, the New Black Panther Party, CAIR, Ira Foreman (l’havdil), Bill and Hillary Clinton, Barney Frank, Al Franken (l’havdil) and Charles Rangel? For that matter, how odd that you use tref to describe ideas you don’t like, when you cheerfully ingest actual tref.

Oct 1, 2009 - 8:48 am 19. Calvin Ball:

This is probably the best piece on this subject written yet. Dr. Miller, you’ve pretty much encapsulated the entire issue.

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:07 am 20. Calvin Ball:

What amazes me is the arrogance of so many American Jews who seem to honestly believe that they know better than the people who are actually here.

I’m afraid that you’re looking at Ashkenazi condescension toward those half-breeds. The American Jews don’t look at Israelis as civilized. It’s ironic, but there’s a whiff of racism in their attitudes.

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:11 am 21. tanstaafl:

Many American Jews place their commitment to leftist politics before the survival of the Jewish state.

It seems to be the case, which is truly astonishing.

Of course, so called “secular” Jews were, apparently, many of the ones crowding to have Bernie Madoff accept their money for investment (or lack thereof). So maybe native intelligence isn’t their defining character trait to begin with (snarky, I know…:) )

After his UN remarks and various interviews while in the US last week, I am designating Benjamin Netanyahu as new leader of the free world.

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:28 am 22. Altalena:

One wonders if there has ever been a more Jewishly ignorant generation than the generation of leftist Jews who now infest such groups as J Street. It is nothing less than preposterous for these people to declaim about “Jewish” values when they know next to nothing about Jewish history, Jewish philosophy, or Judaism. Most of them know as much about true Jewish values as Madonna knows about real Kabbalah.

Those of us who have studied at least some Chumash and some Talmud understand that the platform of the Democratic Party is not Torah — and it is time for those who pretend it is to stop the pretense. Let them do all the political bloviating they want, but not in “Judaic” terms. Wittgenstein said it best: “Whereof one cannot speak, thereon one must keep silent.” Good advice for the Jewish left!

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:29 am 23. genghis:

RUVY

Fear not. The times’ they are a changin. Little light bulbs are going on in the heads of many erstwhile liberal Jews. Now, I grant you that these lightbulbs are of the new energy saving ecologically approved variety, i.e. dim, but, nevertheless, it is a start.

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:45 am 24. skydive:

biblio##,

Get off the high horse. You are pathetic. A poor excuse for a Jew. Gentiles, probably, think all Jewish people are like you.You ,and the like of you, are hiding behind the name “Jewish”. JINO’s are just as bad as RINO’s. Feh! Drack!

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:48 am 25. SkyDiver:

Altalena,

J Street does not represent People in America who identify themselves as Jewish. Not for a long time now. J Street just high-jacked entire issue. Z Street is the one that has a far better take on a pulse of American ( as far as NORTH AMERICAN) Jews. Head to these website and look around.

Oct 1, 2009 - 10:17 am 26. Calvin Ball:

Bye bye. We do not need you, your moralizing garbage and most especially your money. Send it to the Red Cross, the Catholic Church or LAMBDA or the PLO.

And you’d be smart to stop accepting American foreign aid, too. But that would require reforming your government, and losing all the socialism.

Oct 1, 2009 - 10:20 am 27. Calvin Ball:

Fear not. The times’ they are a changin. Little light bulbs are going on in the heads of many erstwhile liberal Jews. Now, I grant you that these lightbulbs are of the new energy saving ecologically approved variety, i.e. dim, but, nevertheless, it is a start.

I think the Phillips/Dershowitz dustup bared all. For Dershowitz, abortion was more important than Israel. It’s pretty hard to be too optimistic about the ship turning the corner with that kind of mindset in operation.

Oct 1, 2009 - 10:22 am 28. Ken Besig:

We Israeli Jews have done our very best to squander and even abuse the real and heartfelt support of the American Jewish Community for the Jewish State. Just take a quick look at some of the Prime Ministers we have democratically elected here. A known drunken Israeli Prime Minister and former Defence Minister, Yitzchak Rabin, signs the lethal Oslo Accords which ultimately cost the lives of thousands of Israeli Jews and brought a terrorist army with Yassir Arafat at it’s head into the heart of Israel. Then we have the weak and appeasing behavior of the former Defence Minister and Prime Minister Ehud Barak who practically surrendered the entire country, including Jerusalem to Arafat’s terror militia. And let us not forget the truly depraved and infinitely malevolent former Defence Minister and Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, who unilaterally destroyed entire Jewish Communities in both the Gaza Strip and the Shomron, using the Israeli Army and Police to violently and brutally assault those Israeli Jews who dared to resist his ethnic cleansing of the Jews. All of these confusing and inconsistent Israel diplomatic and security failures and acts, as well as our well known Left wing Israeli media have successfully driven our American supporters into a state of either indifference to our fate here in Israel, or have convinced them that we Israelis have no right to have a country that we treat so cheaply. I don’t blame American and European Jews at all for their lack of support for Israel, because it is our fault here in Israel for electing such failed and flawed leaders like Rabin, Barak, and Sharon and for them to behave so dismally as both Jews and Israelis. And then demanded that American Jews support their stupid and dangerous policies. I can’t even fault Obama for his hostility towards Israel, after all, we behave like the worst sycophants and acquiesce to ridiculous and dangerous American diplomatic and security demands like settlement freezes with nary a word of dissent instead of standing up like proud and determined Jews with the most powerful historical and religious narratives in the world. Plus a Torah and other Holy Books and teachings which are the foundation of all of what is good, moral, and holy in what we call Western Civilization. We Israeli Jews have routinely driven American Jews and even American Gentiles away from us with our truly disgusting political, diplomatic, and security behavior and it will take years for us to ever enjoy their support again.

Oct 1, 2009 - 10:33 am 29. Anonymous:

Sky diver — I was simply using J Street as an example of the knuckleheaded left-wing Jews who are so solidly in Obama’s camp. Actually, I’m a member of Z Street — and, like you, I would urge every Jewish reader of this website to check out Z Street. The difference between J Street and Z Street is the difference between a shrimp cocktail and a kosher meal. Thanks for your response!

Oct 1, 2009 - 11:01 am 30. Altalena:

SkyDiver — I was merely using J Street as an example of the left-wing Jewish knuckleheads who are solidly in Obama’s camp. Actually, I’m a member of Z Street, and have nothing but the highest regard for the organization. Like you, I would urge any Jewish reader of this website to check it out. The difference between J Street and Z Street is the difference between a shrimp cocktail and a kosher meal. Thanks for the response!

Oct 1, 2009 - 11:09 am 31. David W. Lincoln:

The leftists see cultural conservatives as the enemy. So, when the government of Israel is acting in a way acceptable to cultural conservatives, the instinct is to go against the cultural conservatives.

Does anyone wish to challenge this appraisal? For, I’ve looked at this from
different angles, and I’m positive that I am not barking up the wrong tree.

Oct 1, 2009 - 11:20 am 32. SkyDiver:

Calvin Ball:
<>

It’s coming, believe it or not, it’s coming. Israel pays back a lot more then it gets. These are the nature of international relations. The guaranties that it gets, were forced on them. It also binds them to some agreements, that protect American Companies competitiveness, if I may say so, but you understand what I mean.

Oct 1, 2009 - 11:30 am 33. Poor Citizen:

As almost every educated person knows. The situation in Israel and Palestine is a total disaster and the real nightmare is that (albeit a miracle of biblical/quoranic proportions) this disaster will continue in hot and cold form forever…and ever….and ever… So I find no point in discussing what one group of folks of jewish descent feel, no matter what part of the world they are in. Thanks for the article.

Oct 1, 2009 - 11:51 am 34. Sirius33:

In my circles, I see three Jewish responses to Obama.

1) The older generation (circa FDR through JFK) who firmly identify with THAT ideal of the democratic party and philosophy and who can not imagine themselves voting for a republican/conservative (I know…I know…not the same thing…please do not go on a tirade about that) despite the fact that today’s republicans/conservatives are a lot closer to FDR/JFK than any democrat politician alive today. Hence, they voted for and support Obama yet oppose every one of his policies and efforts. When you point out this inconvenient fact, they act a little sheepish and embarrassed and than resort to condemnations of “that idiot Palin”…!

2) The not insignificant conservative Jewish community that can barely utter Obama’s name without a complimentary bouquet of accompanying oathes.

3) The remaining hopeless liberals who fall into the brilliant description offered above by Alex Bensky “It struck me that many leftist Jews are in a sense the reverse: They maintain an outward stance of Jewishness but their prime, inward loyalty is to leftism.” How true! All these Jews attend Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur services faithfully every year and utter the final wish “Next year in Jerusalem” but one has to wonder if they mean at all…ever. There may be something to the JINO moniker.

Lastly, and I imagine that this group is statistically insignificant, you have the liberal Jews who refute Obama not because of his policy towards Israel but because he is in general a novice who doesn’t know what he is doing.

Thoughts?

Oct 1, 2009 - 12:04 pm 35. Ruvy:

And you’d be smart to stop accepting American foreign aid, too. But that would require reforming your government, and losing all the socialism.

Calvin,

I can only speak for myself here. I cannot speak for the government. In my opinion, we do not need nor should we accept American foreign “aid”. We need badly to produce our own weapons, and to fit our strategy of war to the weapons we can produce.

There is much talk of boycotts of various kinds from around the world. Since we do loads of advanced research, the obvious solution is to refuse to allow anyone in on OUR research – period, and find ways to fund that research ourselves. You outsiders should NOT benefit from our research at all.

If we are going to be forced to act “ourselves alone”, we should make the rest of you eat our dust. That means re-orienting the economy to self-sufficiency wherever possible. It can be done with food, It might be able to be done with water, it can be done with most forms of energy (petrol is out, except to build our own computers), for example.

Were it up to me, the government here would be a lot simpler, with a lot fewer layers, but a similar number of employers who would be far better organized. But it isn’t up to me. I’ve attempted to work on a model, but every time I turn around, I learn something new about how things work here, so my models are all “a work in progress”.

Oct 1, 2009 - 12:11 pm 36. Ruvy:

Ken,

While you are right about the Israeli government and Israeli firms dropping the ball, the bottom line is this. We are no meant to be a nation like all other nations. We are meant to be alone. Go, read the Torah. The Torah is not just a lot of pain in the butt rules (yeah, I know it looks like that lots of times), it is, in addition to being the DNA of the universe, G-d’s Word and Prophecy, given through His favorite prophet, Moshé.

So don’t worry about foreigners liking us. They’ll love us, when they realize (in terror and despair) that WE are the ones they have to turn to to tell them how to survive in a Redeemed World, a World of Truth. OUR future is to be teachers, and we ourselves have to be smart enough and holy enough to do the job.

Oct 1, 2009 - 12:19 pm 37. westerncanadian:

If you liked reading Dr Millers article, you would enjoy this article by Barbara Kay in the National Post(Canada)

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/09/30/barbara-kay-the-jewish-enemy-within.aspx

You might also be interested in this one too, by Sara Saber-Freedman.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/10/01/sara-saber-freedman-buycott-israel.aspx

Oct 1, 2009 - 2:07 pm 38. MikeF:

As a Jew who came to US from russia (does that makes me Russian Jewish American?), I can confirm that russian Jews in US are almost all vote against Obama, just like in Israel. Even those who registered democrats voted McCain.My unscientific poll among people I know shows over 80% anti-Obama sentiments.
The reasons for it are not religious though. Its just that we can recognize communist when we see him, and we did not come here to to repeat good old soviet union all over again.

Oct 1, 2009 - 2:54 pm 39. myth buster:

36. And you have much to learn before that time. But, Elijah will teach you, in advance of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Then, with the hearts of children turned to their fathers and fathers to their children, shall Israel see her salvation, the Messiah of YHWH. Then shall they mourn and hate their sins, yet the Messiah shall turn their sorrow to joy. Then shall Israel and every nation cry out, “Hossannah! Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!” Then shall Israel finally be at peace, and she shall be chief among the nations.

As for now, repent of your sins, and call upon the Lord, seek His face and ask Him to reveal the Messiah to you. Read the words of the Prophets, and take heed of what they say about the Messiah, and about your sins. The Lord invested a great deal into Israel by giving her His Word. Therefore, Israel shall be judged much more harshly for her sins than any other nation, but the righteous of Israel shall also be first in receiving rewards for their righteousness. The Day of the Lord is now close at hand- pray for truth, salvation and wisdom with an open and contrite heart, with a sincere desire to know the Lord, and He will reveal Himself to you, and show you how to be saved. The Day of the Lord shall be the worst hour of human history, but it is also what shall cause Israel to return to the Lord and He will wipe away all their ungodliness. The Spirit of the Lord has been poured out, ask Him for Truth, and He will teach you all you need to know. Do not be alarmed by what He says, but listen to Him speak to your heart as you ask in truth and love, with a sincere desire to know God, and a heart that grieves for its sins, and longs for them to be remembered no more, as Jeremiah prophesied.

Oct 1, 2009 - 3:19 pm 40. Judy, NYC:

obaminator jews, just like the jews in germany circa ‘32, after several hundred years always believe themselves an integral part of whatever nation or tribe they are residing in or with at the present moment. these jews, all evidence and automated gassings to the contrary, believe they have control over how jews are viewed. and want to show that , just like the german jews felt about germany, they are better americans, by eschewing all things jewish. i suppose they think this will make them better liked. i would ask any british or french, swedish or eastern european jew about how that’s working out for them.

Oct 1, 2009 - 4:01 pm 41. digitalis:

Marxism/Leftism is the Jewish Religion. The ultra orthodox follow the teaching of the religion and have more in common with conservative Christians than they do with their co-religionists. The point you are making is suddenly being discussed in many forums. It should be because many are scratching their heads as to why so many Jews voted for Obama. Simple – as you say – it’s the politics.

Oct 1, 2009 - 4:35 pm 42. cee:

When I went to vote for president, I had a lot of conflict. I see myself as an American Jewish woman. I am fortunate in that all my great grandparents & grandparents left Germany or Russia/Poland between 1840-1890. There are many reasons why I felt that Obama would be better for our country than MacCain. And one of them was that if this country continued on its trajectory, we would not be able to help Israel. Remember that the Republicans deregulated industry, gave companies subsidies to move to Mexico and Asia and want to privatize government and use subcontractors and while holding hands with the Saudis, Threw the environment and the education system, and all the things that I care about under the bus.

I am not happy with Obama’s appearing to not care about Israel. But The Israeli’s are no more unified about what to do than we are. I have friends in Israel who believe that Israel should never give up a centimeter of land. I have other friends who feel that Israel should be able to find a middle ground and are willing to give a lot of land for peace. I personally am of the opinion that we need to do what ever we must to insure that Israel is secure within her borders with a unified Jerusalem.

But I live here, and I can only be responsible for myself and my family.

Oct 1, 2009 - 7:10 pm 43. cee:

What I really see after rereading the article and the comments is that Jews, Americans, Israelis, Leftist and the extreme right, none of them are monolithic. Remember, two Jews, three opinions.

Oct 1, 2009 - 7:17 pm 44. Observer:

The amount of thinly-veiled antisemitism in these comments disgusts me.

Oct 1, 2009 - 8:09 pm 45. Albert:

Ruvy #35

Since we do loads of advanced research, the obvious solution is to refuse to allow anyone in on OUR research – period, and find ways to fund that research ourselves. You outsiders should NOT benefit from our research at all.

…..while spying the hell out of any western technological–especially military–advances…. The real trouble begins when western countries start applying strict legal sanctions against Israeli spying. As it is, such spying is “somewhat tolerated,” particularly in the US.

Preish the thought what might happen to Israeli technological self-sufficiency should the West use much stricter measures against Israeli spying. That very real danger has been enhanced after Obama gave a “tacit endorsement” (notice the quotation marks, pleas!) to anti-Semites all over the world at the UN. The sound of his speech and his blatant anti-Israel position(s) will reververate with and motivate anti-Semites, not least of which those who eagerly want to shut off the high-tech information flow into the Israeli arms industry.

Perhaps, when Israelis begin to feel the squeeze on high tech information, they can call on Alan Deshovitz. He has “influence” with the Obama administration. Axelrod and Emanuel will be standing by to help….

Albert

Oct 1, 2009 - 8:40 pm 46. David P:

It’s in your title, it’s “Obama’s Abandonment of Israel,” not America’s, meanwhile Americans are abandoning Obama in droves.

Oct 1, 2009 - 9:34 pm 47. Matthew:

So I guess that someone here can substantiate the claim that obama is abandoning israel. Right? Because if it’s not true (hint: it isn’t) then this whole thread is a load of tripe.

Oct 1, 2009 - 11:35 pm 48. LA:

Albert, sorry old chap but Israel has shared significant technology with the US and has tested and improved whatever technology the US has allowed Israel get through military credit. If Israel takes it’s own technology and works with other countries like Sweden and India the cost of lost military exports to the US would be significant. As for spying, does it count if Israel goes after data that the US promised but failed to deliver?

Oct 2, 2009 - 12:27 am 49. P. Ami:

Actually, it seems to me that the whole “Marxiam/Leftism is the Jewish Religion” idea has been making the radio and TV rounds coming from the lips and pen of Podhoretz. There is truth to it but in the hands of the media which is tied into Conservative audiences it takes on a life of it’s own. You are all echo chambering with just as much of a blinkered attitude as the Leftist echo chambers do their issues with Xe’s behavior in Iraq. This is all contributing to polarizing our country guys. This is headed to a bad place.

and…

“We are meant to be a nation apart”, “We are going to be teachers to the world”… I get that Ruvy believes this and that this sort of thinking has a long tradition with out people, but for G-d’s sake- as a Jew that would love to have the Arabs out of our country, that the refugees should be taken up by Jordan, that Israel should be a strong and independent country, that thinks Bibi is the best we can do for right now- I sure as hell don’t want to be teaching Torah to the World, I don’t think the Torah has any DNA in it unless some remains from the Lamb’s skin, nor that we as a people need to be holy. Lets not forget that this being an American site, people here are either digging on the generals of what you consider to be the Jew’s place in the world, but they figure we missed a few Jesus sized gaps in the details. Either that or, this being a country based on Liberty, we don’t dig on being servants, even to G-d. You are entitled to your statements of faith but I look at it and figure that we are all much more likely to be wrong about the nature of the Universe as any one of us is of being right.

Lauren, if you think that the Atlantic Ocean gives Americans the luxury of being Leftists, how is it that the Hebrew word- Smolani- is used to describe some Israelis? Leftism is a certain kind of Imperial self-righteousness that even Israelis can express. It is primarily a secular culture. Secular people are often drawn to Leftism, even if there is no ocean to protect them from an enemy.

Oct 2, 2009 - 12:51 am 50. angry american:

To Ruvy:

If you are such a strong believer, why do you censor God’s name with “G-d”? Step up and proclaim his name before all men and he will know you and hear you.

Oct 2, 2009 - 4:21 am 51. Southern Hibiscus:

I think many of the people really running our country is from generations of Nazi’s before them. I think the people lurking in the shadows that really run our government come from Nazi supporters such as a Rockefeller and many of them dictate what happens in our government.

Who owns the Federal Reserve? The owners of the private company are really running things and they are Bankers and Dictators. I believe Dictators have run our country for many years and many have Nazi ties.

The President of the United States is nothing more than the position of a Queen in England, and it is all for show.

I hate the words “New World Order” with my whole heart, and I am against any person who stands and echoes those words for the Dictators of the world.
No politician can be trusted and I hate the Nazi’s of the world. The people seem programmed by the regime to believe it is not true.
As I read over what I just wrote, I question my own thoughts, because it seems ridiculous to say it aloud and I do not understand why, but I think it is because I am sounding like an old B rated movie on AMC television.

Oct 2, 2009 - 6:52 am 52. ahad ha'amoratsim aka ahad:

#50 to Angry American “If you are such a strong believer, why do you censor . . . with “G-d”? Step up and proclaim his name before all men and he will know you and hear you.”
Before you criticise a Jew for following Jewish tradition, take a few minutes to learn what Jewish tradition is. Out of respect for G-d, we do not write out his name in Hebrew except on sacred documents. This is based, among other things, on an explicit command not to erase His name. When we need to write His name on something temporary that will be discarded, we insert one or more hyphens, or change one of the letters. As an additional mark of love and respect, many Jews carry this over to writing the word “God” in English, by writing that name as “G-d”, even though the English word (unlike the name in Hebrew and various Hebrew terms for God) has no inherent sanctity.

If you don’t want to look like an ignoramus, don’t criticise Ruvy or other Jews for acting like Jews instead of like Christians.

- Ahad, H’ trying very hard not to be Angry American Jew.

Oct 2, 2009 - 7:48 am 53. Scott:

I’m curious as to why people are so surprised about “Leftist” Jews…Marx and Trotsky were both Jews, I think leftism/socialism/communism is the natural home for Jews who no longer believe.

Oct 2, 2009 - 10:51 am 54. angry american:

Ahad

Be careful. I am indeed a Christian and strongly believe the US should remain a strong ally to Israel. You, on the other hand, are trying very hard to act like an “UGLY AMERICAN JEW”. With so many American Jews distancing themselves from the teachings of their religion and certainly not practicing it with outsiders (All the Commandments since there are more than Ten), I did not know this to be true. It amazes me that you cry “victim” but treat people with such contempt and ugliness. If you are so respectful of the Jewish teachings, why don’t you police your own? Like “Thou shall not Kill” (abortions) yet who supports it to the nth degree? Or give your own money to the poor instead of asking the government? And in case you’re wondering, I have worked for a Jewish owned company, with Jewish co-workers(various companies), and had a Jewish roommate. The company was horrible, mean and nasty, the co-workers varied between good & nasty, the roommate was the best I ever had, a real blessing but it always came down to “PROFIT”. Glad I don’t/didn’t know Bill Maher or Bernie Madoff.

Oct 2, 2009 - 10:53 am 55. ahad ha'amoratsim:

Dear Angry: First, let me start by apologizing if I came on too strong. I welcome your support of Israel, which in my opinion is in the best interests of the US. I worry whenever someone accuses a Jew of insincerity for acting the way the Jewish religion says to act instead of the way the Christian religion says to act. “With so many American Jews distancing themselves from the teachings of their religion and certainly not practicing it.” Yes, a huge problem, I agree, and due in no small part to our long and bitter exile that, in America, at least, has led to many Jews being ignorant of or estranged from their religious teachings.

“It amazes me that you cry “victim” but treat people with such contempt and ugliness.” Again, I was wrong not to adopt a gentler tone. But I do not see where I said I was a victim, and I found your criticism of ruv rather contemptuous (“if you are such a believer . . .”). That does not mean that I was right to respond in kind.

I also worry when someone takes ill traits of some Jews and applies them to all Jews. “If you are so respectful of the Jewish teachings, why don’t you police your own? Like “Thou shall not Kill” (abortions) yet who supports it to the nth degree?” — Certainly not I. And not any of the organizations that I support. By the way, you are mistranslating the commandment (the Hebrew word translates more accurately as ‘murder’, not ‘kill’), nor is that particular commandment the basis of Jewish law’s prohibition of abortion. “Or give your own money to the poor instead of asking the government?” I do, and I have taken issue with those Jews who believe that Tzedakah means using the power of the government to take everyone’s money and give it to those the government deems worthy, rather than giving your own money as required by the Torah. “I have worked for a Jewish owned company, with Jewish co-workers(various companies), and had a Jewish roommate. The company was horrible, mean and nasty,” I have had similar experiences working at a Jewish-owned comnpany. And at several gentile-owned companies. “Glad I don’t/didn’t know Bill Maher or Bernie Madoff.” I’m glad that I don’t know them as well, but I can’t say I understand your point — unless, again, you are implying that when a Jew succumbs to temptation, it has something to do with his being Jewish, or shows that Jews are somehow less willing or able than others to behave properly.

Oct 2, 2009 - 11:29 am 56. ahad ha'amoratsim:

Scott #53 “I’m curious as to why people are so surprised about “Leftist” Jews…Marx and Trotsky were both Jews, I think leftism/socialism/communism is the natural home for Jews who no longer believe.”
Historically there have been many homes for Jews who no longer believe. Before there was leftism, there was idol worship. Later, both Christianity and Islam proved attactive to Jews who abandoned Jewish belief. Also Buddhism, Sikkism, Mahara Ji, transcendtal meditation, secular humanism, and any host of others. Marx was Jewish, according to Jewish law, but was raised by parents who hated the Jewish religion and wanted nothing to do with it – an attitude that was reflected in his writings about Jews and Judaism.

When a Jew abandons Judaism, or is ignorant of Judaism, he is susceptible to any competing ideology that may be floating around. History has shown this. It has also shown that everyone has a need to believe in something (even if it is militant atheism), and that Jews who fervently embrace other beliefs are often the worst enemies of Jews who don’t.

By the way, you seem to be suggesting that Jews are somehow connected to communism, while Angry American thinks that everything with Jews comes down to profit. It seems to me that at least one of you must be mistaken.

Observer #44 “amount of thinly-veiled antisemitism in these comments” You mean not all Jews are Bernie Madoff? Or Trotsky? Who knew. And this from people who claim to be friends.

If you understand Hebrew: Hatzi’leini na miyad achi, mi yad Esav.

See Bes HaLevi to Parshas Va-yishlach. Ha meivin yavin.

Oct 2, 2009 - 11:44 am 57. P. Ami:

Angry American,

First, the Commandment you quote is actually, “Al Tirzach” which means, “Don’t murder”. Murder and kill are different words. The Torah then goes on to tell us what is considered murder and many abortions just don’t qualify.

Second, care to show us where Ahad cried victim? Plus, you seem not to be doing too well policing your own seeing that you’re an American and plenty are performing abortions in spite of your capacity argue with logical fallacies. I seem to recall something your demi-god said about being the first to cast stones.

Third, what a surprise, you worked for a company whose purpose was to make a profit. As for Madoff and Maher, what are you trying to say, the rest of the world is allowed their bad apples but the Jews must be perfect? Sounds like you are drifting into dirty waters with that thinking.

You want your own morality to run aligned with a higher morality and since you consider your morality to be sourced in Judaism you figure Jews aught to behave in a manner consistent with your morality. The fact is that many of our Jewish laws are not consistent with American morals or with what is branded socially Conservative. You realize that the government and the priesthood were part and parcel of Israel in ancient days and that Jews are obligated to pay taxes to both the king and the priesthood. The Torah also stipulates that Jews must give 10% to charity. That’s forced charity, sort of like welfare. How about the frustration we felt over the release of terrorists in Scotland, or even here. Well, in Jewish law we have sanctuary cities where criminals can go and remain free. Not the exact same thing but much is left to G-d and His justice in Jewish Law.

If you want to know what you are talking about, go and study for a while with some orthodox Jews. You’ll see how they think, you’ll see how they study, you’ll learn a bit about how the Laws are interpreted, and perhaps that time in study will hone your thinking a bit. Otherwise, recognize that Jewish Law and Conservative morals are not the same thing and have a good day.

Oct 2, 2009 - 11:53 am 58. angry american:

#55 Ahad
Thank you for your response. I am glad to see we have a better understanding. When I posted my first note I did not understand Ruvy reason for using “G-d” and took it as being “politically correct” rather than religiously correct. Now I do, so please except my apology. I detest PC garbage and the growing lack of respect and reverence for God and Christ. You and Ruvy enjoy your weekend.

Oct 2, 2009 - 12:03 pm 59. ahad ha'amoratsim:

#57 P. Ami, well-said. But you may have overstated one point: “Well, in Jewish law we have sanctuary cities where criminals can go and remain free”, both the source of that law in the Chumash and the explanation and details in Tractate Makkos explicitly limit that law to one who kills a person negligently; it does not apply to all criminals and certainly not to deliberate murderers. A deliberate murderer who makes his way into one of these cities is to be turned over to the court for execution, and in some cases can be killed on the spot.

As to the rest of your post, absolutely. Again, the confusion comes in because the non-Jewish world wants to put Torah into non-Jewish boxes. the liberals figure that because Torah is not the same as libertarianism or conservatism (true), it must be liberal (false). Libertarians and conservatives figure that because Toran is not liberal (true), it must be libertarian (false) or conservative (false). Christians figure that because Torah is religious law & teaching (true) it must be the same as Christian teaching (false). It is what it is, and is not limited by non-Jewish categories or concepts.

Have a good Shabbos and a good Yom Tov.

Oct 2, 2009 - 12:19 pm 60. angry american:

P Ami
#57
Whoa there, Nellie! First of all I gather you are an Israeli Jew. In my first sentence I “said” the US should remain a strong ally to Israel. In the St James version of the bible, it says “Thou shall not kill” and recently it came to my attention that you are correct in that is “murder”. In other words, it does not apply to acts of wars, self-defense, accidently killings. Am I correct on this? I still believe the termination of a innocent child is murder. Since you want to enlighten me so much, please quote word-for-word in the Torah where God says it is okay. Please, inquiring minds want to know.

As far as the company I was speaking of, “PROFIT” addressed this way in another way of saying “GREEEDY”. I am an accounting major so of course I understand full well about a company’s need to make a profit. For example of “GREEEDY”, how about turning the thermostat to “OFF” during O degree weather and sitting close to the main outside door while the top echelon were away for meetings for an entire week!!! On top of that, having to wear dresses with nylons(NO SOCKS) to comply with the dress code.

As far as the victim remark, no Ahad did not say he was a victim and I meant “you” to be Jews in general. And hey, P. Ami, don’t mix Jews at home with American Jews. I do believe there is a difference because of culture and please read Ahad posting #55 to get the scoop on that. After reading your posting, I first thought you need to chill out big time but then again, I don’t feel I could relax if I lived in Israel. My prayers go out to you and the entire nation of Israel.

Oct 2, 2009 - 12:49 pm 61. jamzim:

Actually, the American delegation did walk out on Ahmadinejad; hope you will correct the error.

Source, AFP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090924/ts_afp/undiplomacyassemblyiranwalkout

Oct 2, 2009 - 3:18 pm 62. Carolyn:

I can’t understand it. I’m not Jewish so I have to look at the entire thing as an outsider and judge it in the only way possible – common sense. And, boy, does that fail. It’s like they’re watching a guy kill a Semite in that piece of land over there but “of course” the guy won’t do it here? Well, duhh, the ‘guy’ LIVES here – and he’s in the fricking White House. Folks, the problem isn’t WHERE the President advocates killing Semites but the fact that he advocates it at all.

Of course, that’s just my common sense. Which is why this entire Jewish support of Obama just doesn’t make any sense. (Is this a goyim thing?)

Oct 2, 2009 - 9:32 pm 63. P. Ami:

Angry American,

I am an American-Jew, living in the States with Israeli citizenship. I get that you said that the US should remain an ally of Israel but that does not speak to the rest of your comments. My point is that if you think that Judaism is a product of, or a source for, Enlightened Christian ideas then you’ll find yourself mistaken.

As much as Podhoretz and other conservative thinkers try to point to voting patterns in Jewish populations as indicators of cultural similarities between Leftist Jews and the Left, they also try to point to Orthodox Jewry as some natural ally of the Right because of how they vote in elections. Orthodox Jews have similar leanings as social Conservatives but you would be hard pressed to argue that fiscal Conservatives would have much in common with Orthodox Jews. Look at how comfortable many Orthodox Jews are in taking money from the Israeli government so they are free to spend their lives studying and making lots of babies. Their rational, studying Torah helps to rectify sin in the world. Now, I am not arguing for or against their position but it sure as anything ain’t an American Conservative position. Lets also say that Orthodox Jews in the US have much more in common with Orthodox Jews in Israel then they do with fiscal Conservatives, and I would argue that but for a few similarities in traditional values that most traditional societies share, Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians don’t see eye to eye on much.

I appreciate your support and American support for Jews and Israel. If you follow the Biblical creed that G-d will Bless those that bless His People Israel, then great. All the more power and blessings be upon you and your family, not to mention our country the United States of America. I think it outside the scope of reality if you mean to argue that Jews behave like or share in the all causes and values that Christians (whatever kind you practice) do. We’ll have some agreement, some disagreement, and lets hope we can all find ways to just accept the fact that diversity will inevitably lead to disagreement. Let us pray it does not lead us to places more hurtful then that.

Oct 2, 2009 - 10:25 pm 64. syn:

“diversity will inevitably lead to disagreement”

‘Lesbian Jew for Palestine’ may appear diverse however the reality is that it’s a death wish which inevitably must be fulfilled as the only means to satisfying any disagreement.

The secular Left does not want to acknowledge the fact that self-loathing is no way to champion human rights.

Oct 3, 2009 - 4:35 am 65. SjB:

Prof. Miller,

The dichotomy in Judaism is the same one we see in both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. One explanation I have for it is the parallel divide between progressivism and conservatism: It is how they view mankind.

Progressivism denies mankind’s nature and conservatism does not. When man’s basic nature is denied, then utopia is achievable, and the limits and boundaries of being human are rejected. Social engineering (among other things) is not only possible but obligatory.

It also helps explain why churches or synagogues become nothing more than a social or political club with a veneer of religiosity with none of the substance of their religion. In conservative Christian circles, we call it the social gospel.

Unless these groups return to their religion’s core teachings, they will probably not change. There is always the chance that these groups will be mugged by reality and then return to their conservative roots. Time will tell.

Oct 3, 2009 - 9:50 am 66. Ruvy:

To comment #52. Thank you very much for the explanation to the commenter in #50.

To Albert at comment #45. Somehow I think us Jew-boys in Israel will manage without you Americans, even if every now and then we do some industrial spying on you…. After all, boychick, if you Google up “Google”, you’ll discover that it was dreamt up by two of us Jews. No, they weren’t Israelis, but the fact of the matter is that we in Israel are packed with kids who think like the inventors of Google. Not every one of them is an Einstein – but then again, not every one of them needs to be. Are you getting the picture?

I sure as hell don’t want to be teaching Torah to the World, I don’t think the Torah has any DNA in it unless some remains from the Lamb’s skin, nor that we as a people need to be holy.

To Ami regarding coments 49 & 63: There are some texts you need to look at to comprehend what is said in that statement. The DNA of the Universe is not found by examining a parchment scroll under a lab scope. Additionally, you may not want to teach Torah, and if you are not qualified to in a Redeemed world, you won’t. If you survive Redemption (bear in mind that I do not take it as a given that I will survive Redemption, so I’m not looking down my not-so-long Jewish nose at you), there will be plenty of other work to do in the task of tikkún ‘olám that will have nothing to do with teaching the Tana”kh or the Seven NoaHide Laws to people grasping for faith.

But if you do expect to survive Redemption, you should take it faith that attempting to be holy is part of the deal. And “holiness” does not mean shaking and praying or eating bourékas and drinking Coke while sitting in a kollél all day. It means what many define as “spirituality”, trying to do what is right as opposed to what is easy, continually examining your own behavior closely – and finally as the root word kadósh suggests, setting yourself and those to whom you teach faith in G-d, apart from the common run of mankind – understanding in your heart that ‘am yisraél does indeed stand apart and is meant to dwell alone.

…thinks Bibi is the best we can do for right now…

If Bibi is the “best we can do”, we are in deep trouble. Like Obama, he makes great speeches. In fact he dwarfed Obama at the UN, making it clear in whose shadow Obama really stood. But he is willing to countenance the dsestruction of Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria, willing to free terrorists for a 60 second video, and willing to do all he can to break every rule here to silence or sideline the voices of true nationalists in Israel. In other words, like Obama, Benny Nathan is a cheater.

Finally, most of your comment #63 is important for many non-Jews to absorb. Jewish values, are not Christian values and attempting to call “Orthodox” – that is normative – Judaism an ideological ally of American “conservatism” is just so much nonsense.

Oct 3, 2009 - 2:41 pm 67. Harrison:

American liberal Jews are to most devoted practitioners of faith-based politics. Their faith is “Liberalism ueber alles.” Let’s see where this gets them. As Obama stumbles from one failure to another, as was the case with that vain Carter, the narcissist Obama will blame his staff. Obama is surrounded by some prominent Jews. Wanna bet that in the end his domestic failures are going to be the “Jews fault?” His international failures will be assigned to Netanyahu.

Oct 4, 2009 - 1:07 pm 68. Ergo:

I wonder why it is considered axiomatic that Jews (in the US but not only) have a bond with Israel. Is it because during a few decades there was such a bond? Well, for quite a few it’s over and that’s it.
It’s a variable relationship, just like the one these Jews have with Judaism: There has been a growing body of novel, original interpretations of Judaic law and teachings that clearly diverges from the “regular” or “conventional” (Orthodox) stream. The changing attitude towards Israel is, apparently, part of this newer view.

Still, let’s not forget that those who hold such views are a very tiny minority of the American/Western population. How significant is this nano-voice?

Oct 5, 2009 - 5:19 am 69. Matthew:

“Unless these groups return to their religion’s core teachings, they will probably not change. There is always the chance that these groups will be mugged by reality and then return to their conservative roots. Time will tell.”

I’m sorry, but … huh?

What reality is going to mug jews, and how will that cause this theological shift? I get the impression that you’re seriously confusing a political world-view with a religious one. Are you suggesting that the only jews with a grip on reality are the conservative ones? And how does that, in any way, connect with their religious understanding?

I’ve recently started reading the talmud (it’s actually quite interesting, even for a gentile) and if there’s one thing that leaps from its pages, it’s the historical reality of judaism being open to compromise and engagement with a changing world. If you want to be literal, there ARE no “conservative roots” jews left. That tradition was shaken by the babylonian exile, and ended with the destruction of the second temple.

Oct 5, 2009 - 7:29 am 70. Mench:

Americans need to stop listening to foreigners and natives that obviously have the welfare of other countries in mind. At the expense of our own.

Oct 5, 2009 - 3:11 pm