Pajamas Media

138 Comments

1. flickervertigo:

the bullshit is getting so deep that it’s impossible to find the truth… but i think that’s what the neocons are counting on… truth lost and gone, forever.

the bullshit gets so deep that you have to have a big war to blow the bullshit away, rewrite history, and supposedly start from a clean slate.

the hysteria about this iran election makes it look like the main media is hardening up —a last throw of the dice? …and maybe there comes a point that everybody gives up, and, bowing to the inevitable, jumps on the bandwagon and gives the warmongers what they want.

this “nuclear primacy” stuff is real scary, because the neocons’ american support structure is so weak they’ll have to go to their strong point, the military, which is pretty much useless, itself…

but the ultimate club these primitives are relying on is the nukes… and not only the nukes, but preemptive first strikes on russia and china.

but that seems so insane that i keep coming back to the same old thing: this whole caper is cover for the biggest looting operation in history, except in the minds of the deathwish christian/samson option israeli fringe.

america has to be looted while the looting’s good, before america collapses from oil shortages and the operation of the looters, themselves.

here’s hoping the lunatic fringe doesnt find the nuke trigger… hoping also that the israelis can see that their samson option would be such a PR catastrophe that it could kill jewishness itself.

but maybe they’re that desperate.

…or that sick

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:35 am 2. David Levavi:

Had Hitler been just a little more circumspect in his Jew hatred, only a touch less crude, he would have been rewarded with 70%the Jewish vote in 1930s Germany.

J-Street by various other names has been with us for all Jewish History. They are the Korach segment of Jewish society. Moses knew them well.

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:37 am 3. progressoverpeace:

These sorts of Jews have long been known to all. We speak about their type at every Passover seder, with the parable of the four sons. They are the manifestations of the wicked son, to the core. And they will suffer the fate he was warned about. Unfortunately, they’re going to drag the rest of us down with them …

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:53 am 4. flickervertigo:

might as well put the finishing touches on the korach segment of jewish society, along with all pretentions at zionist morality, huh?

mr dror, dennis ross’ mentor, says all jews —not just israelis, but all jews— should abandon their morality when it comes to defending israel.

go out with a bang, drop the big one, now, before eritrea throws you out of those sub bases.

nevermind the big question: “is israel good for the jews?”

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:20 am 5. JFM:

From distant memories the President of the American Jewuish council told that Nazi Germany was not a big deal.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:25 am 6. Steveoh:

Liberalism is their religion. As you correctly point out, their connection to the Jewish State and her very own existence is trumped by all things evil in corporate, Colonialist America. You are right on in seeing that our emperor is butt naked. But they are blind, they will never see. Perhaps not until a mushroom cloud floats in the sky. There is no logic in dealing with the self hating Jew. Sartre paints a clear picture in his book Anti Semite and Jew. In Nazi Germany and throughout Eastern Europe, Jews laughed off the Rhetoric of the time. Now here we are in America, watching secular self hating Jews do the same thing all over again. What ever happened to Never Again? Trumped by history will always repeat itself. Jew hatred is rising all over the world, even here in Hymietown as Obama Bin Liner’s friends’ rhetorical crap has finally found it’s way into the White House. Israel and the Jews of the world are living in very dangerous times. People tend to think there are billions of Jews all over the world. Jews number maybe 16-17 million worldwide. Take aprox 6-8 million of the liberal type here and in Israel and you’re left with quite a tiny group of people worldwide, hated with a passion not seen since Hitler, the Mufti and the Third Reich. I personally am afraid. Afraid for my loved ones in Israel, afraid for the tiny Jewish population of the world. Israel must and will make new alliances to stay alive. And to those Obama suppoting Jews. They are no better than the Judenrat’s of their day. And the day will come for their judgement, and I’m not talking about the thereafter. Shame on them. And thank you for the accurate piece.

Jun 24, 2009 - 3:27 am 7. Mongoose:

Flicker, You and that “neocon” business. You still have not answered the questions posed to you about your “neocon” fantasies.

Who are these “neocons” as a “political movement”? How are they not just what we used to call “Democrats” before the Marxist took over te Democrat Party?
(and spare me quoting Bill Kristol or Strauss for Pete’s sake, how silly can you get?)

You keep ducking this. All we get out of you is regurgitation of hard left agitprop, jargon and its loopy geopolitical “logic” (read “paranoid delusions”).

It is you that is being manipulated, and not by some “neocon cabal” but rather by Marxist propagandists whose lineage, intent and agitprop you do not understand, and the context of which you are thoroughly oblivious to. It is Obama’s section that departs from the American posture of the last 100 years or so, not these so called “neocons”. This attempt to “frame” this as a “neocon plot” is just hokum. This “neocon” meme is just another one of these frauds foisted on us by the left, and like almost all of them the intent is to caste the normal response of America as somehow “evil” and an “innovation” that departs from our ideals, traditions and history. This particular meme also seeks to blame this on “the Jooos”. But it is a complete inversion of reality. It is an attempt derail American from her historic role, morally cripple her and cause her to hesitate at exactly the moment when she should not do so. It is just another bit of vile agitprop from the left meant to force America to do just what the International Left has always wanted her to to: Leave them alone so that they can get on with their perdify.

Was JFK a “neocon”? Was LBJ? Was “FDR”? If they were, then just what does the moniker “neocon” really mean? What you are calling “neocons” we used to call “Reagan Democrats”, for crying out loud.

As I have seen saind around the net lately:

That vile neocon plot: Freedom and Democracy.

Flicker, just what are you standing for and what are you against?
What are you defending? What are you decrying?

You need to do a little soul searching. You are being lead by your vanity to stand for some very immoral things.

Let us be clear: The Left wants to destroy Western Civilization. Two of their key targets are America and Israel. They hope to use Islam to bring both of them down.

If you think otherwise, just like at how the Left is using Islam against the West in the EU.

And the “neocon’s support structure is weak”? There is no such thing.
It is a complete construct of the Left. This is a fantasy world that you “discussing”.

If you think that Americans do not hold dear most of the beliefs that you ascribe to “neocons” you are quite mistaken. The response to Obama’s dithering quite shows this.

If you think that the majority of Americans want Israel destroyed or are Jew haters, you are quite wrong. If you think that the majority of Americans do not want America to stand firm in her historical role as a strong leader of the West you are quite mistaken. You are evidently too young to remember the Cold Qar and just what we sacrificed for it. Trust me, the American response to the Cold War was not part of some “Right Wing Plot”. It was taken up firmly and with open eyes by a broad coalition of the electorate and upheld strongly by both parties across decades of travail, that is it was upheld by both parties until the hard Left took over the Democrats in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. If you think otherwise it is because your teachers have been lying to you.

Assimilated Jews have often had this problem when they encounter statist ideologies in societies where they have mingled and flourished. Ideologues require scapegoats, and the Jews are prime targets, particularly when the ideology in question is a collectivist one. This was the case both in Germany; this was the case in Russia. In the case of Marxism, the whole matter is exacerbated by the tendency of secular Jewish intellectuals to project their religious tendencies and predilections onto that ideology.

In the case of the secular American Jew and the American Left there is nothing new here–it is really just a reflection of the Soviet case. What is new is that by means of the dodge of this “neocon” propaganda anti-jewish bigotry has come out in the open and has become acceptable once again in “polite company”. Moreover, for the first time in our history it has actually become part of policy, and in fact a primary policy of one of the major political parties.

This is a shameful business.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:12 am 8. Mongoose:

Cold Qar = Cold War

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:15 am 9. Mongoose:

Oh and Flicker: “Is Israel good for the Jews/” What an idiotic question.

But what is really bizarre is that you imagine that that question was not answered generations ago, and most likely before you were even born. Merely because this is not understood by the crowd at Starbucks does not change this answer.

The answer was “Yes”. Still is. Go take a tour of Auschwitz or Dachau if you are confused about this.

It is indecent to even frame the question.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:23 am 10. aramkr:

Flickervertigo:
You really should learn a little punctuation to impose some order on your gibberish.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:46 am 11. RandyChandler:

Obama’s stance on Israel is based on faulty assumptions. The settlements are not the problem. The real problem is the fact of Israel’s existence. Muslims are under orders from Allah to erase Israel and there will be no lasting peace as long as this fanatical delusion holds sway.

What makes this absurd beyond belief is that Obama couldn’t do anything to stop Iran from arming with nukes — even if he wanted to. BHO is like an impotent Romeo who has to woo with words because he can’t actually get it up. The truly sad thing is, liberal Jews in America have fallen for this cheap seduction and will be, in the end, left wanting.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:57 am 12. "progressive"watch:

[1] is a living example of the mindset. Read it and see the hopelessness of bringing these ideologues in out of the dark. Being a Jew is no exception. There is no appeasing the jihadists as there is in America no appeasing the leftist-statists. If Obama aids in wiping out the Israelis to the last man,woman and child,the majority of lib-left American Jews will still support and admire him.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:59 am 13. Lawrence Kohn:

The pre 67 borders were armistice lines, not borders, though even had they been borders, as winners in a defensive war Israel would be entitled to territory taken from the aggressor. Othewise the aggressor always has the option of returning to status quo ante and trying again.

Congress is key to support for Israel which has used military aid in ways that assisted US security through technological modifications, battlefield testing etc. The neo con slur is just that; when one considers how much discussion goes into the use of weaponry in war among Israelis not only in the street and the press but in government circles it makes flickervertigo’s rantings, rantings.

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:22 am 14. Emio:

flickervertigo:

I cant decide if this poster is really Pat Buchanan or Louis Farrahkan. Either way I certainly dont need either telling me what is good for “The Jews”

American Jews are a disgrace to the state of Israel

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:28 am 15. cedarhill:

Does someone have a good therapist for flickervertigo?
Or maybe an interpreter than can organize and add some coherency? Maybe just give them a pill so they’ll sleep all night?

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:29 am 16. Toronto Girl:

Most of the Jews I know, including myself, are diehard conservatives. Jews in Canada are slowly turning away from blind liberalism, largely due to the pro-Israel conservative PM Stephen Harper. Uber-liberal Jews who support Obama typically attend Reform synagogues (sporadically), inter-marry at a larger rate than their more conservative brethren and have little spiritual or emotional connection to Israel or Judaism. Why shouldn’t they vote for Obama, since they stand for little or nothing whatsoever?

Jun 24, 2009 - 5:53 am 17. iwantmycountryback:

Nothing, but nothing, trumps liberalism/progressivism/socialism or whatever the hell you want to call it.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:26 am 18. Ozzie:

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.Unlike traditional conservatives, neoconservatives are generally comfortable with a minimally-bureaucratic welfare state; and, while generally supportive of free markets, they are willing to interfere for overriding social purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative

Usually when I see the term neoconservative used, it is used shorthand for “da J00s”. If the definition can be trusted from wiki (and I salt everything from wiki on advice from my doctor) it reads like a liberal who enjoys military interventionism. It sounds like George Bush. A more appropriate label for the definition would be neoliberal, or pseudo-liberal.

Concerning the article, I have been wondering about the disconnect between US Jews and Israeli Jews myself. The only way I could understand it, if it was the way with Jews that it is with many US ethnicities over time. We disconnect from the “mother country”, and after a few generations it’s just a colored block on a map to us. I’m Polish, but I don’t speak Polish, don’t know any relatives there, don’t know the issues their facing and don’t really consider Poland when I head to the ballot box. Is it as simple as that?

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:33 am 19. sheesh:

17. iwantmycountryback:. . . itsnotyourcountry

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:35 am 20. straightman:

I’m Jewish, and I, frankly, don’t give a s**t what Israeli Jews think of Obama, just as I’m sure they don’t care what I think of Netanyahu.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:36 am 21. Alex Bensky:

I think the posters who ascribe this to an overriding if poorly-thought out liberalism have it pegged.

For various reasons I maintain my membership in a Jewish and more or less Zionist group that styles itself progressive although not, thank goodness, progressive by J Street’s standards, although the membership over laps to some extent. But I get the feeling in discussions that some, by no means all, of the other members are more concerned with maintaining that sweeping progressive freeling than anything else.

As to J Street, all that need be said is that J Street couldn’t decide whom to support during Operation Cast Lead, which rendered them less pro-Israel than the Egyptian Foreign Ministry.

Jun 24, 2009 - 6:50 am 22. John:

Please don’t feed the trolls…

I have seen this sort before… Like Gollum/Smeagol they are consumed by their addition to an object… in this case hatred of something… anything… They only desire their “Precious”.

Anti-Semites waste their lives blaming others for their own failings. The impulse ranges from the dyspeptic thoughts of the closet hater, to certain commentators who shall remain nameless but whose prose speaks volumes, and ending in the actions of evil madmen. The former can be lived with. The latter can be debated and exposed. The last must be engaged physically in whatever it takes to stop them from executing their plan.

I am not a Jew. I am a Catholic. I have arrived at the understanding and principle that Catholicism means absolutely nothing if Judaism is a nullity. I am also reminded, that the ill treatment of God’s first chosen has universally lead to downfall (In His own time… but it happens without exception.)

The problem is that when Jews break faith with God, which is occurring as we speak, all civilized humanity is at risk. What does one do when one is toiling in the mine, and the canary commits suicide?

If Israel ceases to exist, now, after all that has been done by the west to put back what was taken away, there is no telling what will happen. Ask the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Greeks, and the Romans. Maybe check in with a few old German WWII veterans before they pass on to whatever judgments they are due.

It would be a good thing for American Jews to wake up, and find that their odd fixation with secular socialism is what is going to destroy them.

Without preaching to convert any of my Jewish friends out there, Jesus (Joshua) preached about sacrifice of even the most dear things rather than being thrown into Gehenna. Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnon, is the potters field of Jerusalem. It is ground so spoiled by Judaism’s lurch into Baal worship that the soil was forever left without blessing. In Jesus’s time, the place was thought of as a symbol for eternal damnation.

I speak of the cursed ground, here. Cursed by the actions of the the fallen faithful.

r/John – TMF

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:04 am 23. deguello:

A weakened Israel means open season on Jews,Let the libtards among them them die and decrease the surplus population of Western decadents.As for those whose instinct for survival is stronger than the brainwashing of suicidal a political culture,masquerading as religion, let them join the NRA. They will be received with open arms.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:05 am 24. Ivri:

Flickervertigo-another brainwashed Obabmoozled
usefull idiot.
You need to read some history,not the daily kos.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:10 am 25. sjc-tx:

sheesh… then WHOSE country is it you ignorant fool???

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:10 am 26. AThinkingPerson:

sheesh: So we’re all to assume that since you believe that the USA is not any of “our’s” (Re: #19), it’s Obama’s to trash then right? I guess that’s why you’re always in lock step with his agenda no matter what the outcome for it’s future. No wonder the Jewish population is so willing to overlook his obviously anti-Israel policies. Lock-step with Dear Leader at all costs. History does have a way of repeating itself doesn’t it?

Thanks for the little window into a liberals Alice In Wonderland view of things.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:13 am 27. Mike W.:

19. straightman: “I’m Jewish, and I, frankly, don’t give a s**t what Israeli Jews think of Obama, just as I’m sure they don’t care what I think of Netanyahu.”

Glad to see that someone with a brain put in his two cents.

This whole piece is laughable. Throughout the 1950s and 60s, southern white racists were throwing bombs into synagogues because American Jews were asserting their right to be counted as equal citizens.

Now, southern white racists hiding comfortably behind their computers are posting hate essays about how secular liberal Jews are somehow destroying the world because they do not rabidly supporting Israel.

So 50 years ago, you hated Jews for being too Jewish, and now you hate them for not being Jewish enough. Add to that the fact that the only reason most of you numbskulls support Israel is because of you believe it’s going to be some kind of cosmic wrestling ring between Jesus and Satan at the big pay-per-view Revelations Steel Cage Grudge Match.

So, guess how seriously most Jews take the ignorant and mindless bull**** that you bigots spew?

Not very.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:18 am 28. sjc-tx:

shessh

“We the people…”

(hint: it’s from a document you have probably never read.)

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:24 am 29. solomonpal:

Good job mongoose…nothing left to say to flick ecept maybe recommend a good tatoo removal clinic.By the way flick…the nose ring does not suit you.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:28 am 30. sjc-tx:

27. Mike W.:

Whne you grow up and evolve some intelligence, …come back and see us.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:28 am 31. Ms. Attitude:

America is full of S.H.I.T. “Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening” Jews. The S.H.I.T. list is very long.

In a recent study funded by the Andrea and Charles Bronfman Philanthropies (an important donor to Jewish communal organizations), Professors Steven M. Cohen and Ari Y. Kelman revealed that their survey data had yielded some extraordinary findings: In order to measure the depth of attachment of American Jews to Israel, the researchers asked whether respondents would consider the destruction of the State of Israel a “personal tragedy.” Less than half of those aged under 35 answered “yes” and only 54% percent of those aged 35-50 agreed (compared with 78% of those over 65). The study found that only 54% of those under 35 felt comfortable with the very idea of a Jewish state.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:33 am 32. Mongoose:

Ozzie: That definition just reiterates what i said before: If there is such a thing as a “neocon”, it is a moderate or slightly left of center Cold War Warrior Democrat for the age before the New Left took over the Party. Or to put it another way, thet are what we called “Reagan Democrat”, as I said above.

And yes, GWB bears a lot of resemblance to this sort. Even Nixon did, to certain extent.
There would be nothing controversial about GWB’s WOT to a Democrat of either the Truman or JFK periods.

That is not to say that the “real” conservative “revolution” epitomized by Reagan was opposed to this either. They were hardly the so called “paleocons” we speak of today.

My point is that what is being lambasted by the left as a “neocon” position was a mainstream position in the post WW2 political landscape, in fact it was the mainstream position.

The Left has succeed in pushing us so far to the Left–and rewriting history–that they cynically would have us believe that this is some “innovation” being pushed in us by some “nefarious cabal” of dubious political (and racial) pedigree. This is not the case.

(BTW, it really will not do to use Wikipedia as a source for things like this. The authors of much of the political “contributions” are markedly left of center, to say the very least, and the “debates” over the slant of articles there reflect this. It is great place to look up things like the Periodic Table, but not matters such as this.)

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:34 am 33. idov:

Ahmaninejad could run at the head of the Democratic ticket and 80 per cent of American Jews would still vote Democratic. Israel is not a deciding factor nor even a minor consideration in their choice of vote. That’s the way it should be. Headlines like this linking the Jewish vote to US policy on Israel is beyond dumb, it borders on anti-Semitism. I’m an Israeli and no one is getting excited about Obama sucking up to the Arabs. We survived the Pharaoh and James (F*ck the Jews) Baker, we’ll survive this clown as well.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:37 am 34. flickervertigo:

more people are admitting to probability of peak oil, and peak oil was the most pressing motive for israeli americans and israel to stage 9/11… and this motive, peak oil, is connected to global warming, which is in itself, another motive.

it works like this: global oil production has probably peaked, but even so, there’s enough fossil fuel left to cause another 100 parts per million increase in co2 levels.

since neocons supposedly believe they can run the world, and dont believe in cooperation, they are pushing this PNAC project to grab control of the remaining oil, at which point they’ll be able to ration fuel to emerging economies like china and india, who are burning ever greater amounts of fossil fuels…

controlling access to oil is the neocons’ last chance to control global warming and subsequent sea level rise… a long shot, which explains why israel has given up gaza and continues expanding into the high ground in the west bank.

the basic motivating fact of 9/11 is this: israel must be secured before its american armies run out of gas.

from seeking alpha: PEAK OIL: MYTH OR REALITY?
.

once you’ve abandoned your morals, anything is possible, including 9/11… and mr dror is saying all jews must give up their morals in defense of israel: When Survival of the Jewish People Is at Stake, There’s No Place for Morals

if all jews abandon their morals to support israel, which was founded in lies, terror and injustice, and zionist lies, terror and injustice continue to this day, is that gonna have a detrimental effect on all jews?

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:42 am 35. chris in Toronto:

Mongoose, that was great! Thanks.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:43 am 36. flickervertigo:

but it’s still likely that a large faction of supposed zionist neocons are simply using israel’s exemption from criticism to enhance their opportunities to loot.

the basic tactic being: they wrap themselves in the star of david for protection as they loot the american economy.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:48 am 37. Ms. Attitude:

Anywhooo, if American-Jews support Obama it’s not because they are self-hating Israel threatening Jews. Seriously guys, we want people to assimilate into America, we really prefer that other nationalities adopt American ways when they come here. Most of the young Jews in America do not relate to Israel. Just like you don’t really relate to the politics of the land of your ancestors.

Another thing worth pointing out is that anti-Zionism was originally a Jewish movement — the majority of European Jews before World War II rejected the Zionist movement and its calls for a mass migration from Europe to build a Jewish nation-state in Palestine. The most popular Jewish political organization in Europe had been the Yiddishe Arbeiter Bund, a Jewish socialist party that was militantly anti-Zionist. Even among the rabbis of Europe, there was considerable opposition to the idea of Jews taking control of Zion before the arrival of the Messiah (and there still is, of course, from a sizable minority of the ultra-Orthodox).

The Holocaust changed all that because the Jews needed a safe haven and one was provided for them in Palestine.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:50 am 38. flickervertigo:

the project makes sense from a sociopath’s perspective: america’s doomed anyhow —because of peak oil— so why not grab enough loot to hide out until the peak oil dust settles?

and once you’ve got enough loot, who needs israel, the radicals’ refuge of last resort? …you can buy refuge anywhere if you got the cash.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:53 am 39. RandyChandler:

Mike W: We’re supposed to be impressed that you threw in your plugged nickel’s worth? Take your tired stereotypes and name-calling hatred elsewhere. Here you’re only making a fool of yourself with your childish grasp of issues and your immaturity. Run along, kid. Snort your ObamaZombie Kool-Ade powder somewhere else. You are way out of your league here. I’m sure there are plenty of places that would welcome your masturbatory comments; find the right circle jerk and stroke yourself out.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:54 am 40. Ms. Attitude:

33. flickervertigo:

WTF are you talking about? What’s your obsession with neocons, oil, and 9/11 conspiracy theories? Where are you getting this stuff? You are a scarey person.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:55 am 41. Khiri:

Mike W.:

So, guess how seriously most Jews take the ignorant and mindless bull**** that you bigots spew?

Funny, that’s how I see the liberal Jews – ignorant, mindless, anti-Semitic, and full of bu$$sh$t. How else can they blindly support someone who is as anti-Israel and pro-Islamofacist as Obama?

Have you seen the rapid rise of anti-Semitism in this country alone? Where are the liberal Jews? They’ll angrily label someone racist who dares to disagree with the actions and policies of the Chosen One, but are suicidally silent about those who scream for the annihilation of the Jews and Israel.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:59 am 42. sjc-tx:

33. flickervertigo:

… we are laughing AT you, not WITH you. …

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:00 am 43. RandyChandler:

Comment # 33 — Anytime anyone throws out the “peak oil” nonsense, you know he’s another green weenie who believes he can control weather if he pays higher taxes and lets the government tell him precisely how to live.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:01 am 44. BettyBlue:

Flicker, Marxism is not good for the left. Sad, but true.

And Jew-hate is not good for anybody.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:02 am 45. jimpres:

I only have one thing to say 87558

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:06 am 46. Paul of Alexandria:

John (22):

Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnon, is the potters field of Jerusalem. It is ground so spoiled by Judaism’s lurch into Baal worship that the soil was forever left without blessing. In Jesus’s time, the place was thought of as a symbol for eternal damnation.

I believe that it was also the garbage dump, where the [trash] fires burned day and night.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:20 am 47. Michael:

Not sure if oBama is anti-semetic, but if he invites his Jewish friends to the White House, take my advise and turn down his offer to take a shower there.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:23 am 48. Khiri:

Ms Attitude:

Seriously guys, we want people to assimilate into America, we really prefer that other nationalities adopt American ways when they come here.

It’s not the same thing. Israel is vital to the Jews. A Jew will assimilate to the culture of their new homeland, but Israel is always home, but not in a way that a native country is home to other groups. It’s much more spiritual than that. Jews being anti-Israel is like Muslims being anti-Mecca. I may get in trouble for that comparison, but I think it comes closest than anything else.

The Holocaust changed all that because the Jews needed a safe haven and one was provided for them in Palestine.

Israel was not “given” to the Jews because of the Holocaust! Israel always belonged to the Jews. You pretty much alluded to that yourself when you said Just like you don’t really relate to the politics of the land of your ancestors

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:25 am 49. flickervertigo:

are jews supposedly so threatened that they will willingly give up their morals to defend israel, and willingly ignore the fact that, if jews are threatened, that threat is caused by their support of israel’s immorality?

are the jewish people too stupid to see how badly they’re being used?

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:31 am 50. Amos:

flickervertigo, you need a fisking.

Is it possible that the truth is obvious, but you’re unwilling to face it? You assert that all these things are bewildering. None of your other assertions follow from anything or are supported by any evidence. Neither are they relevant to any discussion going on here.

Rewrite history? Really? Like Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky or Joseph Stalin? Who’s rewriting history? Please cite.

“Hysteria?” Yeah. We’re elated. We’re hoping it builds up steam so we don’t have to fight the Iranians. Imagine that. Well, no, you probably can’t. It just doesn’t make sense to you that we would want the Iranians to be free and democratic, that we would rather trade with them than shoot at them.

“Gives the warmongers what they want?” What’s that? A disarmed Iran? A democratic one? That’s actually what the “warmongers” (so clever, so original) want. What about the Progressives? Why is it so hard for your kind to support freedom, even if it’s marginal?

The neocons’ American support structure…? Huh? Just because we’re not breastfed by George Soros doesn’t mean there is neither support nor structure. You win one election and you act as though the Victory of the Proletariat is complete. You forget that since Reagan, we’ve held the high office 5 out of 8 times. Since Nixon, 7 of 9.

Assuming we were “relying on nukes,”… and Russia and China don’t have plans for first strikes? Are you really that naive? Question: During the Clinton administration, did an American General hint at nuking Shanghai over Taiwan, or did a Chinese General hint at nuking Los Angeles over the same? You really can’t imagine the actual truth, can you?

Biggest looting operation in history? You guys dream up this IMPERIALISM!!!!!! then, when the evidence fails (net outflow of cash), you blame it on incompetence. Is it possible that there was and is no intention to loot? Have you considered that option?

Deathwish/Samson Options: have you considered that nuclear deterrence is a rational policy against rational actors? Let’s try a thought experiment. Let’s say you’re a burglar by trade. You’re casing a cul-de-sac wherein are three houses. A the first, you have a Volvo parked outside that has a “Got Hope?” sticker on it. The second has a Prius with that one about the Air Force and bake sales. The third has a full size pickup with a “Protected by Smith + Wesson” sticker on it. Question: which house do you rob? Answer: the one with the Volvo. Because you want to attack the property farthest from the loud, scary guns.

Now, if it’s a rational deterrence against a rational actor, what do you do against an irrational actor?

Put it another way, since you’re so smart and everyone you disagree with is so dumb and evil: if there’s a man out there, who will attack you in such a way that he is guaranteed to die, but may kill none or some of your own, what will you offer him in exchange for his cooperation and his dedication to peace? What do you have that he wants?

America has to be looted. It does? Why? Because nobody “understands” you and your genius? Your insights and wisdom?

“Israelis can see that their samson option would be such a PR catastrophe that it could kill jewishness itself.” You really have no grasp of history. People have been trying to kill “jewishness itself” for four THOUSANDS of years. That’s considerably longer than The West Wing was on television. And, besides, you realize that the Samson option means Israel would go, yes? Ergo: “Samson.” That would kind of make the PR value a nonstarter.

“Maybe they’re that desperate… or sick.” Yes, they’re sick. No other explanation is possible. Well, ok. Here’s one: to an irrational mind that is full of mythology and quackery, the whole world looks crooked. It may not be that the world is bent so wrongly, but that the lens through which you see the world is.

Interesting that Ahmedenajiad’s (sp?) proclamation that Israel should be utterly destroyed didn’t make your Earth-shattering mind-dump. Does that not figure in as well? Have you considered their base position and their incentives? It’s almost as though you, like so many Progressives (Bill Maher comes to mind) think everyone in the world is an atheist collectivist, except for those eeeevil Jewish Neocons and right wing Christian warmongerers of war.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:55 am 51. Anneke:

“The Israel-Palestinian conflict, and in particular, the perception that the U.S. is on Israel’s side, is a primary reason for Muslim hostility to the U.S.”

Even if Israel ceases to exist, Muslims will still hate the U.S.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:14 am 52. Michael:

“flickervertigo”, you make me sick. Such nauseating, hate-filled bullshit is what I expect to find in the comments at HuffPo, not here.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:47 am 53. Michael:

Thank you, Amos.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:49 am 54. Ms. Attitude:

Khiri:

It’s not the same thing. Israel is vital to the Jews. A Jew will assimilate to the culture of their new homeland, but Israel is always home, but not in a way that a native country is home to other groups.

Much like the sacred ground in the United States is to the American Indians?

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:49 am 55. John Schuh:

Khiri: The Arabs claim to be children of Abraham, but they certainly don’t accept what Torah says about the Promise. History tells us that Jews have always lived in Palestine, sometimes in small number and sometimes large, but they will not accept even the well-attested existence of Herod’s temple. History to them is whatever they make up on the spot.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:50 am 56. flickervertigo:

maybe some of you can tell me the moral principle on which israel was founded.

was it “two wrongs make a right”, “might makes right” or “the end justifies the means”?

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:52 am 57. flickervertigo:

meanwhile, anything’s moral if you’ve abandoned your morals, isnt it?

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:54 am 58. Bill Perron:

Liberals are always turning a blind eye to truth, it comes with being a liberal, doesn’t matter what their ethnicity is.

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:54 am 59. Snorri Godhi:

It is pointless to reply to the like of Mike W, especially here; but I’d like to point out that the southern white racists that he dislikes were members of the Democratic Party. There is something about this party that attracts both Jews and antisemites, and the rest of the party sees nothing wrong with that.

To quote Konrad Adenauer:
“In view of the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that He did not also limit his stupidity.”

Jun 24, 2009 - 9:58 am 60. Nate:

Yes, but even if Israel ceases to exist, some people will continue to blame Muslim hostility on it.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:13 am 61. SukieTawdry:

Oh, flickervertigo, #34 was fabulous. Really. Please do some more.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:27 am 62. JL:

Settlements are disgusting.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:37 am 63. garyj:

Flickervertigo it sounds like you’ve taken too much acid.
Karl Marx’s father was a social climbing status seeking lawyer however social mobility was restricted for Jews. Although both he and his wife came from religious families he converted to Catholicism presumably for status reasons. Obviously his peers saw through his motives and he still wasn’t accepted. Karl was brought up in this atmosphere and both he and his father were embittered of religion. That was the root of the founding of his false religion.Many Jews today are of his ilk where personnal ambition and status seeking supersede any loyalties. Just look at Obama’s court Jews as an example.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:46 am 64. Ms. Attitude:

57. flickervertigo:
meanwhile, anything’s moral if you’ve abandoned your morals, isnt it?

Isn’t that from the Alinsky book, “Rules for Radicals” that Obama practices out of?

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:46 am 65. Mike W.:

59. Snorri Godhi: “It is pointless to reply to the like of Mike W, especially here; but I’d like to point out that the southern white racists that he dislikes were members of the Democratic Party. There is something about this party that attracts both Jews and antisemites, and the rest of the party sees nothing wrong with that.

To quote Konrad Adenauer:
“In view of the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that He did not also limit his stupidity.”

Yes, well, there’s something about the Republican party that seems to attract delusional nutcases and murderers, and the rest of your party seems not to see anything wrong with that.

Right now, the Democratic Party is a big tent, so of course you’re going to find people on opposite sides of the spectrum in it – both Jews and, unfortunately, those who harbor anti-Semitic beliefs. But to argue that there are more anti-Semites in the Democratic Party than the Republican Party? Yeah, I’m going to need to see some figures that support that claim, especially considering all the swastikas I saw flying at your teabagging parties.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:48 am 66. David Thomson:

“….especially considering all the swastikas I saw flying at your teabagging parties.”

Huh? Where is your evidence to support such a bizarre allegation? This has got to be among the weirdest accusations I’ve ever seen in my entire life.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:03 am 67. Snorri Godhi:

Mike W, you silly twit, I am neither a Republican, nor a conservative, not even an American, and I have no desire to be any of those things. Nor an Israeli or a Jew. But it is self-evident that anybody who supports what, after ww2, has become known in America as the “left”, is objectively antisemitic.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:23 am 68. flickervertigo:

i guess you can make a good case for israelis simply not knowing how to act, seeing as how they’ve never had a country of their own.

and if you go a little deeper, you’ve got to look at talmudic philosophy, which seems to be the root of the problems jews have had…

but, seeing as how contemporary jews are such novices, and started under such a burden of immorality in the first place, it’s not surprising israel is in such dire straits.

.
zionists’ supposed attachment to the land itself is bogus, and that’s the root psychological problem.

palestinians have a gut attachment to the land; it’s supported them, nourished them, protected them, for generations, it’s home, and since ashkenazis are basically homeless, they have trouble understanding.

why are jews homeless?

a real attachment to the land is pretty powerful.

it’s been everything i’ve ever had

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:26 am 69. fred:

#22, John,

Brilliant post. I agree with it completely. Like you, I am a Catholic holding the same views, theologically, geopolitically, and culturally about Jews and Israel.

Everyone beware of the J Street denizens. J Street was founded and funded by a Soros-funded 527 organization. George Soros is a man who, since his adolescence in Budapest helping Nazi Jew hunters, has been on a mission to destroy the Jews and their nation. The Jews who belong to J Street are filthy traitors to their religion and to their people.

Brilliantly put, John: “What does one do when one is toiling in the mine, and the canary commits suicide?”

And I’m sure John would agree with me that those Christians who subscribe to “Replacement Theology” are dangerous and damnable heretics who deserve Gehenna too.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:32 am 70. kenny komodo:

Those American Jews, not really Jews at all but what I call “UltraLibs” are of the same mindset as the Jews of Germany in the 1930’s. In Germany, the evidence was mounting that Hitler was gearing up to attack the Jewish communities of Germany. Slowly, at first, but then with increasing speed the ability of the Jews of Germany to make a living, to find employment as teachers, or doctors, or lawyers or whatever was curtailed by the Nazi government. Freedoms were taken away, liberty restricted and still, with the evidence mounting, the Jews of Germany refused to believe what was right in front of their eyes. The mindset of these “UltraLibs” is pretty much the same. Add on to that is the fact, I believe, that these UltraLibs don’t really give a rats ass about Israel at all, they’ve become willing tools of the left and are being played like a cheap fiddle. The Israeli’s know the score and it appears they are not about to have Obambi bully them.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:51 am 71. Marc Malone:

Where are the moderators on this thread? Vertigo’s racist, paranoid rantings are vile! Enough! Time to kick him out.

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:21 pm 72. Toronto Girl:

#70 – I assume you mean Jewish Americans and not Israeli Americans. NO JEW IS WILLING TO DO DAMAGE TO AMERICA TO DEFEND ISRAEL. You sound like the quintessential neo-nazi, sprouting garbage right out of Mein Kampf.

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:25 pm 73. flickervertigo:

and it’s really too goddamned bad that nobody can quite grasp the fact that the land came first, and molded the people who live on it, and so fostered an attachment to the land in those people.

“people who need people are the luckiest people in the world”

manipulating people will feed you. land will feed you without manipulating people, but seeing as how there are people that feed themselves by manipulating other people…

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:50 pm 74. flickervertigo:

something wont stand the light of day

count the internal combustion engines

Jun 24, 2009 - 12:58 pm 75. andre:

Can someone please buy Flickervertigo some decaf?

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:04 pm 76. flickervertigo:

the fact that you have to censor my posts is confirmation of… what?

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:11 pm 77. flickervertigo:

it’s gonna be hard to keep the logic of 9/11 under wraps once the motives for 9/11 become obvious.

so it’s a tightrope… as peak oil and global warming become more obvious as motives for 9/11, awareness will seep out, and all this stuff, evidence of motive, means, opportunity, character and prior convictions is on the internet.

are you gonna be able to manage it?

the obvious solution is to crack down on the internet, at which point you’ll be no better than the ayahtollahs.

how’s that for irony?

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:34 pm 78. Proudly Jewish:

flicker,

You’d make a fine klansman. You already know their platform. You seem to know nothing of history or facts. You speak of morality and then quote directly from nazi propaganda. Are you so incredibly ignorant of the facts that you actually believe the lies you are spewing? People like you are the reason that 6 million Jews died. I pity you. You know nothing of honor and you are destined to be eaten alive by your own hatred. Your moral bankruptcy is the reason that Israel always wins. Your hate will destroy you.

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:47 pm 79. flickervertigo:

give israel and the israeli americans a horse, let them skate off into the sunset with their loot while americans get down to the business of deciding how they’re gonna deal with peak oil and global warming.

that’s acceptable… it’s not justice, but justice has always been a pretty scarce commodity.

but the fact remains: if suicidal deathwish christians and samson option israelis get a finger on the nuke trigger, all bets are off.

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:54 pm 80. fred:

Perhaps we should leave the posts of the Left trolls on this thread in order for everyone to see what kind of vile excrement exists over in the DailyKos world. I refuse to dignify their “arguments” – which are nothing more than rants, taunts, and snark.

Jun 24, 2009 - 1:58 pm 81. Self-hating Boomer:

Where’s Stinky Beaumont when you need him?

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:05 pm 82. Hashalom:

Since the Palestinians and the Israelis are victims of the benighted Despots agenda – the eradication of encroaching Democracy from the Middle East – your venom from both sides are misdirected.
People don’t hate people. People, worldwide, just want a roof, food, eduction for kids and peceful existence.
Uninspired leaders and , partcularly, the benighted Despots of the Middle East inculcate hatred for their own narrow interests and are willing to spend their last dollar and sacrifice the last Palestinian/Iraqi/Afghani to ensure the perpetuation of their disfranchising, exploitive and intimidating autocratic regimes. Moslems of the World arise and dispose of those who have chained you to lives of abject slavery. You have nothing to lose but your chains of degradation.

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:11 pm 83. Ms. Attitude:

Whew…I think the nurses finally put the jacket back on Flicker!

Jun 24, 2009 - 2:58 pm 84. Ms. Attitude:

I was really looking for a good debate earlier but that guy kept running the thread with jibberish.

What I was eventually going to say was that with progress on our planet there is movement of groups of people. The Jewish people were already settling back into Palestine after they were basically kicked out of everywhere in the Middle East. I’m sure more from Europe would’ve gone during the Holocaust had it not been for the mandate over Palestine by Britain. It was only a matter of time before they took control of what is now Israel.

Jun 24, 2009 - 3:06 pm 85. BrainTrust:

These discussions are very emotionally charged but short on reality. We are forgetting the one overarching point that is Obama. He does not want to be king, or emperor or the Messiah. He wants to be Pharaoh. His first major speech was not coincidently in Cairo. He wants to enslave the Jews and all others. He believes he is the god-king. I think he is psychotic because of his drug use, and his megalomania is fed by the worshipers and his palace priest, Axelrod, who is ironically a Jew.

Religious preference is a red herring. The collapse of America brought on by Obama’s policies will impact Jew and Gentile, Muslim and Buddhist.

Don’t let the politics of religiosity and class differentiation allow the new Pharaoh his rule. We must stand together or we will fall prey to his egomaniacal, preening, control-freak distruction of a free and beautiful nation.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:08 pm 86. Ike Clanton:

Is it flicker or Flicka? A horse’s ass in any event. This guy has oral diahrea.

Jun 24, 2009 - 4:58 pm 87. Crusader:

I know one such liberal Jewish hippie-type. For him his liberalism is his #1 religion. Now I don’t think American Jews should be loyal to Israel – because they are Americans. However, basic human decency says we should support Israel – all Americans should. Why do American Jews disproportional hate Israel?

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:11 pm 88. Thomas:

Nothing changed since Churchill:
Zionism versus Bolshevism: A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People
Winston Churchill: Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920, page 5.

“The struggle which is now beginning between the Zionist and Bolshevik Jews is little less than a struggle for the soul of the Jewish people.”

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:12 pm 89. David Levavi:

55. John Schuh:

“The Arabs claim to be children of Abraham, but they certainly don’t accept what Torah says about the Promise.”

Before Mohamed, Arabs (peoples of the Arav,or desert)didn’t know or care about someone named Abraham who the Jews revered. Mohamed, like Martin Luther, began by admiring Judaism but after rejection by the Jews for his presumption and ignorance,ended by hating them.

Originally, Muslims faced east in prayer toward Jerusalem in imitation of the Jews. After Mohamed was rejected by the Jews of Medina, the object of Muslim east-facing prayers became Mecca, center of pre-Islamic meteorite worship.

The Kebba in Mecca still contains the holy meteorite that continues to be venerated by the ostensibly monotheistic Muslims who circle the black stone that fell to earth as a fiery messenger from the heavens in a religious procession that imitates the ancient Hosannas of the Jews in their temple in Jerusalem. The pilgrimage to mecca, of course, is in imitation of the ancient Jewish pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Meteorite worship, for those who know the Hebrew Bible, is the stone and star worship specifically forbidden in Genesis. It is the child-sacrifice cult of the sun-god Baal (AKA, Baalzevuv or Beelzebub) and his virgin consort Ashter (AKA Ishtar) who, impregnated by fiery Baal, falls to earth as a flaming star.

Mike W.

“…Add to that the fact that the only reason most of you numbskulls support Israel is because of you believe it’s going to be some kind of cosmic wrestling ring between Jesus and Satan at the big pay-per-view Revelations Steel Cage Grudge Match…”

Christian evangelicals are forever being dumped on by sophisticated secularists for their eschatology.

It may surprise you to learn rhat among Orthodox Jews, Evangelicals are generally viewed with affection. Practicing Jews aren’t troubled by the Evangelical’s end-of-days scenario of great tribulation concluding with the Jews turning to Jesus.

Evangelicals have no plans to load American Jews on planes back to Israel in order to bring about the Second Coming. Thinking Jews know that the Evangelicals are that rarity among those who call themselves Christians who genuinely revere the Old Testament. In a world where most Christians or Jews would be hard put to quote three consecutive lines from the Bible, Old Testament or New it is appreciated.

Knowledgeable Jews recall that British Evangelicals were active engaged in protecting the Jewish population in Palestine from Arab pogroms when it was ruled by the Turks, years before Theodore Herzl and modern Zionism were born. (Read Barbara Tuchman’s, Bible and Sword.)

Evangelicals aren’t all yahoos and Jews aren’t all suckers.

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:23 pm 90. Penny:

Are we beginning to see what Hitler and Roosevelt saw?

Jun 24, 2009 - 7:32 pm 91. fred:

Thomas @88

I love that quote and the title of the article is intriguing. Is there a web link for it? I’d like to read it. If there is, could you post it. It would be most appreciated.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:01 pm 92. myth buster:

69. Dangerous? Yes. Damnable heretics? No. Damnable heretics are them that deny that Jesus is Lord, or that He rose from the dead, or that He will return to raise the dead and judge the living and the dead.

Jun 24, 2009 - 8:36 pm 93. Whistler:

I am repeating myself. So is Flickervertigo. Ms. Attitude do you remember Wadosy. He is reincarnated as Flickervertigo. Flicker V gives me the same vertigo Wadosy gave us all.

Jun 24, 2009 - 10:30 pm 94. Mike2:

37. Ms. Attitude and 88. Thomas

You both understand the reasons behind the divisions in modern Judaism like few here. For the Bolsheviks (J Street) nothing is more sacred than their socialism.

Jun 24, 2009 - 11:56 pm 95. Realist:

When the League of nations proposed splitting the Mandate of Palestine into a Jewish and Arab State in 1921 (how unfortunate that date is for all the Holocaust reasoners) it envisaged a roughly 50/50 split . So far the Arab invaders already have over 80% and they and their uniformed stupid Western apologists and dhimmie Governments want Israel to give up more of the less than 20% they have ended up with. To support this view first you must be an anti semite then you must agree that ONLY Mohammedans have any ‘right of conquest’ and that all history begins with the invention of Islam by Mohammad. This is not and never has been about land its just an excuse to kill Jews.

Jun 25, 2009 - 12:08 am 96. Realist:

‘flikerverigo’ how appropriate that you are an anti semite, anti capitalist, a Green NAZI ‘Warmist’, a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, pro ARAB invader of of the Holy Land and an Obambi worshiper all rolled in to one. How well all that nonsense goes together if you are as intellectually challenged and emotionally, gullible and hysterical as you seem to be .

Jun 25, 2009 - 3:55 am 97. The Shadow:

“But it is self-evident that anybody who supports what, after ww2, has become known in America as the “left”, is objectively antisemitic.” Statements like this one give further evidence that the wingnuts live in a fantasy world and and that there is no depth they will not sink to. It reminds me of some the 13 year boys I use to teach.

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:28 am 98. Thomas:

@#91 fred:
A simple query in Google like “Churchill and the Jews” or similar words to that effect will turn up a stupendous number of hits, all analysing Churchill’s views from different angles. I happened to bump into one which carried the quotation but I cannot delve into any further lest my post will be censored and deleted.
This is one of many: “http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/864/”

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:50 am 99. Thomas:

@#91 fred:
I enclose a “morally” impeccable, contemporary, British mainstream source: “http://www.britain.tv/ukpolitics_prime_ministers_winston_churchil.shtml”

“Winston Churchill, Illustrated Sunday Herald – 8th February 1920:
“The part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews …..

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:06 am 100. Self-hating Boomer:

a Green NAZI ‘Warmist’,

Oh, one of these guys: http://www.nazi.org/

Jun 25, 2009 - 7:49 am 101. dan:

This is a biased article. He seems to castigate American Jews who feel that they are Americans first. The Jews who put the welfare of Israel before that of America are a problem. They play into the hands of anti-semites and they are not good for America.

The US needs to have Muslim friends as well as Israel, it is not either/or – that is an Israeli policy construct and would limit US flexibility to deal with the future. There are so many points in the article that are manipulative: give J-Street’s ideas instead of just criticizing it – JStreet is an essential voice for many who disagree with whom our politicians are listening to on the subject of Israel/Palestine. The Iran current situation will benefit America because the Arab masses also identify with the protesters, it undercuts Hamas and Hizbollah. Obama would be stupid to give the knee-jerk reactions that Bush gave and thus allow them to count on a canned response. This way he keeps them guessing and can see which way the wind blows. We need Iran’s help to deal with Afghanistan and Pakistan. The article ignores the actions of Israel over the past decade or so that have eroded support for it = there are concrete reasons why many in the world are fed up with Israel’s stalling and land grabs. Continued uS involvement in this will keep us embroiled in a mess that will drain our resources and political capital worldwide just to get Israel the last 30% of Palestine does not have, nor do we want to support a lack of democracy and civil rights for the Palestinians caught in this. There are Israelis who feel the same way, but they are being silenced at home and have almost no voice in America. Lastly, we need the money we send to Israel and Egypt to be spent at home. Any funds to either country should be for specific projects, be transparent and accountable.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:28 am 102. Snorri Godhi:

Shadow, you just don’t get it, do you? I am not American, so of course I am a “wingnut” to you: my outlook is different from yours; and of course I live in what you think is a “fantasy world”: I live in a world that you never lived in. As for your 13 yo students, I don’t mind to be compared to them in their prime, before long years of PC indoctrination.

As for evidence, I don’t feel the need to provide any evidence in a blog comment: you either think about it, or you don’t. In this case, you might like to ask yourself which side of American politics has registered the largest increase in antisemitism since the 6-days war: if you win converts to that side, then, whatever good you might be doing, you are also working to increase antisemitism.

To get a broader perspective, you might want to look at Europe pre-ww2. You could start with Max Geltman’s essay: On Socialist Anti-Semitism, and follow up with chapters 7 and 8 of George Watson’s The Lost Literature of Socialism.

You might also like to investigate the history of the word “left”: a good place to start would be chapter 4 of Watson’s book.

On the positive side, I see that Dan [#101] has provided a reasonable critique: I don’t agree agree with his views, but at least he did not use ad hominem arguments.

Jun 25, 2009 - 9:46 am 103. Thomas:

@#101 dan
“He seems to castigate American Jews who feel that they are Americans first.”

Am I correct if I assume – that according to you, – being “American first” means worshiping The Messiah, genuflecting to Abdullah, go around demeaning your own country to foreign mob, cozying up with scoundrels like Chavez and Ahmed*jad, hiring Soros financed Marxist KAPO Jews like Jstreet…Read more Churchill’s and less Alinsky or Dalykos.

The 47% or 60 million other Americans who rejected your Magic N**o are considered as America haters, right? – are you too proud like Zaira the Beauty Queen, with toned arms:
“For the First Time in My Adult Lifetime, I’m Really Proud of My Country”

And the money is better spent on ACORN and their affiliates…We got it.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:16 am 104. e:

Great comments all. You’ve brightened my day, and provided more than a few chuckles.

96. Realist:

Excellent observation.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:31 am 105. rattanman:

I have Jewish friends who support Israel, but also supported Obama big time. I’m not sure if/when they will wake up and smell the coffee.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:38 am 106. Strawman:

And why, pray tell, are Chinese Americans who support Taiwan not guilty of split loyalty? Are Tibetans not allowed to have “free Tibet” bumper stickers? And Irish Americans opposed to British occupation of Northern Ireland? If you follow this logic to it’s end, Iranian Americans aren’t allowed to opine on the recent “election” in Iran.

No, it’s an age-old double standard that only applies to Jews.

Jun 25, 2009 - 10:59 am 107. Prof. Steven M. Cohen:

Prof. Steven M. Cohen, Director of the Berman Jewish Policy Archive at NYU/Wagner writes:

In point of fact, our studies of American Jews have shown that Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews differ dramatically both with respect to Israel and with respect to President Obama. In the election in November, they both split about 80-20, except about 80% of the Orthodox went for McCain, and 80% of all the others went for Obama (see “American Jews and the 2008 Presidential Election”: http://www.bjpa.org/view_record.php?id=9939). With respect to Israel and the vote, most of the Orthodox saw the Israel/Palestine conflict as among their chief concerns, which was true for only a minority of the non-Orthodox and even fewer of the young non-Orthodox (see “Israel Off Their Minds”: http://www.bjpa.org/view_record.php?id=11207). And, of course, among the non-Orthodox, younger Jews are far more distant from Israel than older Jews, largely because of the impact of intermarriage (see “Beyond Distancing: Young Adult American Jews and Their Alienation from Israel”: http://www.bjpa.org/view_record.php?id=14573).

I can be reached at bjpa.wagner@nyu.edu for further clarification.

Jun 25, 2009 - 12:08 pm 108. The Shadow:

SG who said you have to be an American to be a wingnut? You are living proof that wingnuts can come from any country. Yoru fantasy is to tie liberal democrats to antisemetism. Of course this puts you into the same camp as the Holocaust denyers – Nice company to keep. As to ad hominem attacks – If you ever watched Bill Buckley you could appreciate the role it has to play

Jun 25, 2009 - 12:21 pm 109. Snorri Godhi:

Shadow, you still don’t get it. I AM a wingnut.

To you.

And you are a wingnut to me.

Yoru fantasy [...] antisemetism. [...] Holocaust denyers

Folks, this is a guy who educates your children!

Jun 25, 2009 - 2:06 pm 110. The Shadow:

OK in my rush I am going to make a few typing mistakes – I am not alone and as usual instead of dealing with my point, you try to misdirect people to an inconsequential and irrelevant point. The wingnuts don’t care about backing their arguments with facts – They just make them up hence you fit the definition of wingnut. Your connection between antisemitism and liberal Democrats has no basis in fact but it fits your warped mind so you just say it. Makes you feel good. Another common quality of wingnuts

Jun 25, 2009 - 2:47 pm 111. Thomas:

@110 The Shadow:
I am a person of Eastern European descent, from the vast expanse where the modern Jewish saga, in its full horror unfolded in recent times: the bloodbath of Marxism and the Holocaust that followed.
As a living witness of history, – according to your classification – I must be a wingnut for contradicting your cherished theories which is cultivated by Leftist “intellectuals” (what a joke!) and neo-Marxist political circles in the press and academia which never saw the inside of an oven built to burn people alive.
I did.
Your convictions is not new, for the first time Karl Marx clearly elaborated it in his treatise, titled On the Jewish question in 1843.

The Leftist Antisemitism is code-worded today and manifests itself in denial the right for a Jewish Homeland, named Israel, yet they vociferously pushing the right to self-determination for minorities which deserve none.
Islamic Republic of XXXstan yes, Israel no!

The Israel bashing roar by the Leftist mass organs and by the KAPOS near your GOD! (he was deified by Newsweek’s Evan Thomas) is deafening but you cannot see it nor hear it.
But others do.

Jun 25, 2009 - 5:14 pm 112. Snorri Godhi:

Who’d have thought that I’d have so much fun sparring with a Shadow:

he [assuming the Shadow is a he] insists that I am a wingnut, after I have stated twice that I am one;

does not get my hint that, for him, every foreigner is a wingnut, because we foreigners don’t think like him;

claims that I am tying antisemitism to “liberal Democrats”, when I made no attempt to identify the “left” with “liberal Democrats” [and note the qualification: liberal; he can always say that an antisemitic Democrat is, by definition, not a "liberal"];

insists that I have given no facts to back up my claims — and at the same time, that I am making up the facts which I do not give — when I gave him 2 references;

thinks that it is OK to use ad hominem arguments because “the other side” [to which I do not belong] have used them elsewhere, when some people ON HIS OWN SIDE, in this thread, do not use ad hominem arguments;

and admits to being a teacher but thinks that it is irrelevant that he makes spelling mistakes.

And all of this in 3 short comments.

Leaving the sarcasm aside, for the benefit of other people who might still be reading, I’ll point out an interesting fact from Max Geltman’s essay that I mentioned above: in the xix century, German and Austrian social democrats approved of antisemitism because it was “the seed of socialism”. Some of those social democrats were even Jewish, I believe. Eventually, Hitler beat them at their own game. How is it, nowadays: is anti-Zionism the seed of anti-capitalism, or is anti-capitalism the seed of antisemitism?

Incidentally, anti-Zionism also creates problems for the rest of the World. More than 5 million Congolese have died while we were worrying about the Palestinians and Israelis; that is about as many as the population of Israel. And now some people refuse to express support for any democratic movement … because they think it better to leave tyrannies in place than give protection to Israel.

Jun 26, 2009 - 12:28 am 113. The Shadow:

Thomas – Marxism which I do not defend had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Your being a person of Eastern European descent proves nothing. Obama along with most liberal Democrats has defended Israel. You have set up a false straw man. ’s right to exist. You make an assertion that only Jews have a right to a homeland and not so minorities. An interesting and revealing assertion. In otherwords predjudice is OK except when it against jews. The political question that you ignore is how do we best insure Israel’s continuing existence. So far israel’s policies on the settments has not lead to peace. It is time to try something else

Jun 26, 2009 - 9:05 am 114. Oldguy:

To American Jews: can you smell the gas yet? Have you checked out the accommodations available in boxcars for your eventual trips? It’s coming, but you know that don’t you? You just keep forgetting this-It makes me suspect that Alzheimers disease is a Jewish trait.

Jun 26, 2009 - 9:05 am 115. Strawman:

Marxism which I do not defend had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

Actually, Marx, ethnically part Jewish, and an atheist apologist for Christianity, was ahead of Hitler when he wrote his antisemitic screed “On the Jewish Question” in 1843.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

Marx was a proto-proto Nazi.

Jun 26, 2009 - 9:13 am 116. The Shadow:

SG “for him, every foreigner is a wingnut, because we foreigners don’t think like him” In otherwords you know both what I think about everything and what every foreigner thinks – quite a claim of omnipotense!

I currently deal with with physicans every day as part of my job. They are all brilliant – top of their fields – yet in their email there are many mistakes – It does not relect on how smart they are – only that in todays world of emails we don’t have the time to check every typo as we would when we are conversing in a more formal mode. I know this is hard for you to understand.

Antisemitism has many fathers – To confine it to one cause is a profound misreading of history.

I wonder what the seeds of wingnutery are? You might elucidate on that topic

Jun 26, 2009 - 9:16 am 117. Snorri Godhi:

Strawman:
Marx was a proto-proto Nazi.

You forgot to mention that Engels was another proto-proto-Nazi: he proposed the extermination of the “reactionary” Slavic races [except for the Poles: here is a difference with Herr Hitler].

Engels: “The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that, too, is a step forward.”

So basically the 2 things that we most hate about Hitler have both been anticipated by Marx and Engels.

Check Watson’s book for details. The quotation is from this site:
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/communists.html

Jun 26, 2009 - 10:12 am 118. Snorri Godhi:

Shadow: you seem to concede, implicitly, my points about: “liberal Democrats”, backing my claims with facts, and ad hominem arguments. That is much more progress than I was hoping for.

Antisemitism has many fathers – To confine it to one cause is a profound misreading of history.

I like that “profound”: it will impress fools, and will discredit your argument with others.

Let me ask one question: can you mention a single Western antisemite in the last 200 years, who was DEMONSTRABLY not an anti-capitalist? because I cannot. OTOH the references that I gave, and which you apparently did not bother to check, mention loads of demonstrably anti-capitalist antisemites; and there are many others, both “far-left” and “far-right”.

Let me also address a minor point:
SG “for him, every foreigner is a wingnut, because we foreigners don’t think like him” In otherwords you know both what I think about everything and what every foreigner thinks – quite a claim of omnipotense!

That would be omniscience, though the distinction might be too subtle for you.
Actually I know only 1 thing: that foreigners don’t think like you.
I hinted that you believe that anybody who does not think like you is a wingnut; but that doesn’t mean that I “know” it: I wanted to see if you’d catch on.

I wonder what the seeds of wingnutery are?
Being a foreigner to you?

Jun 26, 2009 - 11:18 am 119. Thomas:

@114 Old guy
@115 Strawman
@117 Snorri Godhi

You are all right on Gentlemen : we are far ahead in knowledge and intellect than these deified Magic N.**o lovers who never experienced anything more than Rev. Wright’s and other scumbags infinite wisdom – which is far superior to anything the world experienced in the last century, indeed.

My experiences in Eastern Europe prove great many things namely that The Shadow like thinkers are abject failures but before disappearing into obscurity – and all did eventually – they incur tremendous amount of suffering and destruction wherever they existed.

Incidentally speaking, it also helps elucidate the mind if one looks into the bizarro world of the Yevsektsiya for it did not die with Stalin and Churchill was aware of it.

Let the Fiesta from Chicago South Side prevail! Hail the God, the Pharaoh of the world, the omniscient new King of America!

Jun 26, 2009 - 12:01 pm 120. Thomas:

About Yevsektsiya
From Wikipedia:

“Yevsektsiya was entirely subordinate to leadership of the Soviet Communist party. Yevsektsiya members were people of Jewish origin, however, they were hostile to traditional Jewish culture and instead sought to assimilate Jews into the new Soviet society. In line with official Soviet doctrine, Yevsektsiya was deeply opposed to “Jewish cultural particularism” and Zionism, labelling it a form of “bourgeois nationalism”.

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:18 pm 121. Whistler:

Snorri Godhi
Henry Ford was a capitalist and an anti-Semite.

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:33 pm 122. Whistler:

flickervertigo is wadosy

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:34 pm 123. Whistler:

Old guy
If you were around me and made that crack, you wouldn’t get any older.

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:35 pm 124. Oscar the Grump:

wadosy is flickervertigo
He is also a spokesman for Hamas.

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:37 pm 125. Oscar the Grump:

Hello Thomas

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:38 pm 126. Oscar the Grump:

shadow
wake up a lot of the left wing is anti-Semitic. Chomsky, is a left wing Jew and an absolute anti-Semite. Samantha Powers, not Jewish, anti-Semite. The list goes on and on, unfortunately half that list is composed of fallen away Jews. Thomas makes a good point of the Bolsheviks, half of them were Jews by birth. They turned on everyone including their own people.
Its a direct parallel to what is happening today.

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:44 pm 127. Oscar the Grump:

Shadow where is your buddy sheesh?

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:46 pm 128. Snorri Godhi:

Whistler: I admit that I do not know much about Henry Ford’s political opinions, and right now I don’t feel like looking up wikipedia.

The fact is that it is perfectly possible to be both a capitalist [in practice] and an anti-capitalist [in philosophy]. George Soros is an obvious example, but there are many others, in fact my guess is that the vast majority of successful businessmen turn anti-capitalist.

Ford was a capitalist in practice, but what about his philosophy?

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:53 pm 129. The Shadow:

sg – omniscence is a sub set of omnipotense. If you are omnipotent you will have omniscence. You are proving the weakness of your arguments with your foolish use of universal statement as others have already point out.

My use of profound hardly discredits my argument in anyone’s eyes but you and the rest of the wongnuts It seem to be your tactic, throw out a non sequitor and pretend it proves your point

Jun 26, 2009 - 2:07 pm 130. Betti Miner:

I am ready to move to Israel, I do not feel safe here, I am very Pro-Israel and spend 3 months a year in Israel. It is time to go back and live there. Thank you

Jun 26, 2009 - 4:10 pm 131. thinkin' ahead of the past:

no arguments on my part, no big words, no big ideas…just remember the number…
6,000,000 and open the eyes and stand up for your beliefs and what is right and wrong..question, do not just take someone at their “word, just words”..

Jun 26, 2009 - 4:15 pm 132. sallie:

Use all the big words and theories that you want to, it all boils down to..

once again.. the world seems to be turning a blind eye…esp BO

Jun 26, 2009 - 5:09 pm 133. Snorri Godhi:

This is really off-topic, but I am having too much fun exposing high-school teachers: it’s payback time.
So here is an update of the list in comment #112.

The Shadow:

* doesn’t know the difference between omnipotence and omniscience without looking up a dictionary;

* doesn’t know the difference between omniscience and knowledge of 1 thing, even after the difference has been pointed out to him;

* commits the fallacy of affirming the consequent;

* makes the universal statement that I make “foolish use of universal statements as others have pointed out”, without giving non-universal examples of my “universal statements” or of “others” who have pointed it out;

* claimed [#110] that wingnuts are people who do not back up their statements with facts; but after I admitted to being a wingnut, gave him the facts, and asked him to give facts in return, he still calls me a wingnut and does not provide any facts.

I’ll try to update this list when appropriate.

Jun 27, 2009 - 6:39 am 134. Thomas:

@#129. The Shadow

“sg – omniscence is a sub set of omnipotense.(sic)

Your inability to post even one orthographically correct sentence, much less to comprehend the meaning of words you spewing into the air is perfectly in accord with most of the Commie revolutionaries; – ostentatiously bereft of education yet long on demagoguery like you: most coming from the underclass hence their propensity to use violence.

As “foreign born wingnut” permit me to provide link to English language sources to educate you in good faith and – try not to use words of Latin origin:

om⋅nis⋅cience
–noun
infinite knowledge

omnipotence
1.almighty power; hence, one who is omnipotent; the Deity,
unlimited power of a particular kind
(A.K.A. Barry Hussein Soetero Obama THE DEITY.)

By corollary your quoted first line above make no sense at all just like the rest of your narrative.

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:19 am 135. Strawman:

Galldangit, Snorri, pick on someone your own intellectual size. The Penumbra is trying really, really hard to get both neurons firing at the same time.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:05 am 136. Snorri Godhi:

Strawman: few people dislike being flattered, and I am not one of them. [Although saying that I have many more than 2 neurons is not saying much for me.]

Feeling all warm inside, I pledge not to reply to the Shadow anymore — in this thread. I reserve the right to add to my list if I find him in another thread.

Jun 27, 2009 - 11:59 am 137. dervish:

Ozzie -

“I have been wondering about the disconnect between US Jews and Israeli Jews myself.”

The disconnect is very simple. Israeli lives are on the line.

Cain: Am I my brother’s keeper?

Jun 30, 2009 - 9:49 am 138. uzitiger:

Most religious Jews are conservative and see this liberalism as another perversion of Judaism. We see these liberals as idiots who are the enemy within and a cancer to the Jewish community.

Jewish Liberals are idiots who worship the DemocRAT party and march in goose steps with every liberal/ leftist idiotology even when the ideas are anti Jewish. They would have voted for Hitler because he was a ’socialist’ had he been a DemocRAT and this time they did in the Arab Muslim Obama.

Jul 11, 2009 - 10:03 am

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