Pajamas Media

54 Comments

Big Dog:

Absolutely, 100% on the money. Kender my man, you are a genius and you know how to call it like it is without the sugar coating.

Great job!

BTW, I have an old Palm Tungsten if they want to buy it…

May 1, 2008 - 5:01 am Erik Norvelle:

Dear Mr. MacGowan:

I’m an American living in Spain currently, where I’ve been for the last 5 years. I’d like to start my comment by pointing out that I voted for Bush , even in 2004, and have every intention of voting Republican in 2008. Nor am I any great fan of illegal immigration, in particular because a nation that can’t defend its borders is lacking an important part of what it means to be sovereign. Nevertheless, I’d like to make a couple of points in response to your article.

1) President Calderon is one of the few national leaders in Latin American who can be said to be “on our side”. He, like most Mexicans, probably doesn’t like a lot of concrete U.S. policies, and is weary of constant U.S. arrogance towards his nation, but nevertheless he knows that when it comes to a choice between leftist populism and economic growth based on a competitive economic base, the latter is the only choice that will feed his people. Thus, his government remains broadly aligned with the U.S. Do you realize this? Or are you choosing to kick him in the teeth as though he were a Rafael Correa or Cristina Kirchner?

2) You note that Calderon has recently sent a large army contingent up to the border near Ciudad Juarez. Why are those army units needed? Thirty years ago, drugs in Mexico were nearly unknown, other than some marijuana smuggling. Nowadays, many border towns are overrun with “narcotraficantes”. Why are they there? They’re there because there’s a phenomenally profitable market of American drug buyers and consumers, who will pay nearly any price to get their illegal substances. All of the arms and the bribe money that the Narcos have, comes from the U.S.: we are paying them to make war on normal Mexican citizens and law officers, so that we can get our drugs. We buy their drugs, and pay them the money that makes them able to be better armed than their counterparts in the Mexican police. Did you know that? How are the Mexicans responsible for the fact that Americans are paying their criminals to be able to run roughshod over the law and citizenry in Mexico?

3) You note correctly that illegal immigrants can obtain many free services once they are able to cross the border into the U.S., in particular because it is currently legally (and morally) difficult to deny services to these individuals in need when they present themselves in schools, hospitals or other governmental institutions. However, did you know that the fundamental reason for the enormous influx of Mexicans into the U.S. over the past decade and a half has been precisely because of the devastating effects of NAFTA on the Mexican economy? One can make the case (and I think it is a strong case) that in the long run Mexico will be better off without the protectionism that characterized its economy prior to the signing of NAFTA. Nevertheless, Mexican businesses (especially small businesses and farmers) suffered tremendous numbers of bankruptcies in the years following NAFTA, and as a result their employees have had to leave their towns and cities to find someplace where work is actually available. President Calderón is, in fact, doing a good job in making sure that Mexico faces us to its need to modernize its industry and build a stronger economic base, so that Mexican workers can actually find work in Mexico. Did you know that? Did you stop to think that it makes little sense to blame Mexicans for looking for work in the U.S., when it was the U.S. sponsored NAFTA that caused them to lost their jobs in the first place? NAFTA was and is a good idea, but if wanted NAFTA so bad, it is our moral obligation to suck it up and take the consequences like men, not like spoiled brats that don’t like to live in a world ruled by relationships of cause and effect.

4) The fact that our friend Sr. Curiel committed a crime and was then able to thumb his nose at the U.S. authorities by showing his diplomatic passport is a shameful thing, in no small part for its pettiness. Did you know, however, that diplomatic institutions are commonly staffed by career civil servants, and thus President Calderón may not have direct control over who gets hired and who occupies what position? It may be reasonable to ask President Calderón to apply some administrative sanction to Mr. Curiel, and certainly to require that Mr. Curiel never be allowed to go on another diplomatic mission to the U.S. But how reasonable is it to accuse President Calderón of responsibility for what a low-level diplomat does, when we can’t even prevent the CIA from conspiring against President Bush, through such underhanded tactics as permitting (encouraging?) the publication of anti-Bush books by current agents, and other such low blows? Why should we blame President Calderón for what Mr. Curiel does, when Sandy Berger can get away with stealing classified documents from the National Archives? It may not be pretty that Mr. Curiel should act as he has, but I think Sandy Berger is a bigger danger to our country, and President Calderón isn’t responsible.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made. The United States has some serious problems to deal with today, and illegal immigration is certainly high on the list. But most of those problems are of our own making. We can ask our allies to help us in dealing with their part of these problems, as in fact we do with the anti-drug efforts that we undertake in cooperation with Mexico and Colombia. But it does not serve our larger interests to spit on our allies, especially when they have to take on great sacrifices in order to maintain a moderately sane policy towards us, in an environment where it is much easier to go with the leftist tide that has currently run so high in Latin America.

Since you’ve gotten the opportunity to write in Pajamas Media, you have a relatively high-profile pulpit from which to broadcast your message. Wouldn’t it be nice if you chose to address the issues that face us and our allies in a way that didn’t reek of arrogance, immaturity, ignorance of political reality, and cheap insults?

Yes, that would be nice.

Thanks,
Erik Norvelle

May 1, 2008 - 7:42 am nugget76:

Mr. Norvelle

Excellent comment but I must say I am sorry that you missed the humorous point of Mr. MacGowan’s “letter”. Actually I think that Sr. Curiel must have gone to Sandy Burglar’s School of Document Acquisition and fine tunned his specialy to 21st century high tech. Why Mr. Burger was not charged with countless felonies is probably a book in itself. Anyway, you have missed allot in the 5 years that you have been vacationing in Spain. I live in Phoenix Arizona and let me tell you it is just getting quite unebelievable…I am still waiting to see what the final straw will be that breaks the camel’s back. I guess running gun battles between cars on the I-10 or blatant day time kidnappings and subsequent exectution of victims whose families did not pay ransoms quick enough, or, how about 2 police officers gunned downed by illegals who had been deported before several times….should I go on? Of course we all know that hardly anything is done (except by our own indominatable Sheriff Joe) because politicians are afraid of the Latino vote. People of Latino heritage and in positions of political power have decided to put their heritage above their US citizenship because they see these illegals as future voters and thus a future power base. It is so sad that people will sell out the quality of life in their community/country for votes!

Anyway, enjoy your stay in Socialist Spain…surely everything runs perfectly there.

May 1, 2008 - 9:07 am kender:

Erik, Thank you fro writing. That comment was long, concise and reeked of, well, let’s just say that I am highly doubtful after reading your comment that your knowledge of illegal immigration is firm, much like your grasp of reality.

Let’s take this backwards and keeps it short. Sandy Berger should be rotting in a jail for the rest of his life for what he did, and the corruption of the Clinton administration is no excuse to excuse the corruption of the Mexican government.

As for illegals and NAFTA, NAFTA came through in 1994, for many, many years before that I was personally working alongside of illegals in the horse racing industry. Are you saying they were psychic about what was coming and came up early to get a jump on the good jobs? NAFTA has CREATED jobs in mexico, and now it seems we’re going to help build up the infrastructure in southern Mexico as an incentive to get mexico to help stem illegals from flooding our country? That’s right. The mexican government has complained that NAFTA has built up the north part of their country but not the south, creating an influx of workers to the states that no longer can find work down there, and they want US to pay to build bridges, roads and other infrastructure so industry can move there also. (I’d have a link for you here but since you didn’t have any research in your comment I figure it’s good enough for me).

That smacks of extortion to me. “Senor, chu weel beel my britsh or I weel keep seendink chu my peepole.” SO don’t give me the bull-ony that illegals are only here because of NAFTA. They were here long before that (ever hear of Operation Wetback in the 50’s?) and unless we do something they’ll be here forever.

As for the drugs, look where the hippy counter culture that led to such rampant drug use started…..and who defends that side of the aisle with such insanity as rehab not punishment, considering drug users to be victims of a disease instead of the weak minded, character lacking creatures they are, and tell me who is responsible for all of it. In case you are having a hard time grasping that answer, Erik, let me just say that it falls onto the heads of the American Left (the dems) and their idiotic multicultural everyone is a victim except the rich white man mentality, so before you blame America as a whole for problems that have arisen south of our border, look at whose ideals and policies have caused those problems to grow so huge.

May 1, 2008 - 9:28 am Faultline USA:

Excellent post,Kender. I enjoyed it immensely! What’s with Mr. Norvelle? Sounds like a wee bit of PJ media envy to me.

May 1, 2008 - 9:37 am Bobbi Leigh Zito:

Excellent article.

May 1, 2008 - 9:39 am Erik Norvelle:

Dear Mr. MacGowen (and various other commenters):

In the first place, let me apologize for having given free rein to my sarcasm; my argument is not served by acting like a jerk. It’s unfortunate that the blogging medium tends to promote quick commenting, but I can’t claim that that’s an excuse.

I would like to re-emphasize my basic point. President Calderón is as good an ally as the U.S. has south of the border. Humor is in the eye of the beholder, and given that we are short of allies, it is better to not spit on the ones we have.

I am not envious of PJ Media… I am glad that an independent media voice has arisen that can publish truth about issues that most mainstream media outlets ignore or would like to suppress. I do think Mr. MacGowan is doing a poor service to PJM, which normally publishes well thought-out pieces that don’t involve sarcastic ridicule of allies.

Conservative thought bases itself on the undeniable truth that people are more important than governments, which is precisely what liberal (and socialist) thought denies. Well, Mexicans are people too. The glory of America is that we are living proof that a nation based on the principles of free people and free markets can function *better* than other systems (like the Spanish one) that rely on making everything and everybody the property of the State.

Do we want Mexicans to start adopting the basic principles that made the U.S. great? One way to start would be to avoid public ridicule of Mexican leaders who are doing their best to put those principles into practice. Mexicans are a great people, as you would know had you spent extended time in Mexico. It is a tragedy that they are trapped in a Marxist-inspired, tremendously corrupt system. Really, given the human and natural wealth that Mexico enjoys, the Mexicans should be as wealthy and free as we are. President Calderón is, in fact, doing yeoman’s work to help Mexico leave that corrupt and atavistic legacy behind.

So, I invite you to think about that point… by having the opportunity to publish in a great medium like PJM, you can either do harm or do good. I suggest that sarcasm towards Mexico, Mexicans and President Calderón is not the way to convince thinking Mexicans to embrace the basic principles of the conservative movement. Rather, it would be better to start thinking about what can be done via *conservative* principles based on individual freedom and the wisdom of markets to correct the dramatic problems both we and the Mexicans face. Ridicule isn’t conservative, it’s just jingoistic. You know this… just listen to the Rev. Wright as he ridicules white people, and you’ll know what I mean.

So, here’s hoping that your future posts will reflect an awareness that words have power, and that you can help or hurt (albeit in a small way), the spread of conservative ideas. The conservative movement is about ideas that make individuals free, so it’s worth remembering that there are many millions of individuals who live in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin American who need to hear that message. It’s good for them and good for us.

Cheers,
Erik Norvelle

May 1, 2008 - 10:16 am nugget76:

Mr. Norvelle

Ok, I just have to jump in again. You are apologizing for your free rein of sarcasm (which you did not have to) but scolding Mr. MacGowen for his free rein of sarcasm in his “letter” to Pres. Calderon….how ironic! Again you make good points, as he did in his retort back to you. However, let me just gently remind you that humor is sometimes the best way to reach people…we Americans surely didn’t invent it as one can go back over the centuries in great and not so great literature and see authors poking fun at all sorts of establishment norms of their time. To your point that the Mexican people are a great people…I am sure that you could cite many individuals that are indeed so….however, please list some examples of world wide causes Mexico have taken on (such as eliminating Polio), or countries that they have saved from a tyrant/dictator (do I NEED to list examples of that?), diseases they have cured, etc. This is not to denegrate them but their acceptance of corruption and criminal behavior as the norm is quite frustrating, ESPECIALLY when I see thousands of Mexican people marching in MY AMERICAN streets demanding recognition and change from my government RATHER than heading south to the capital of Mexico for this, I take exception to your indignation….respectfully of course.

May 1, 2008 - 11:01 am OmegaPaladin:

Mr. Norvelle,

So because he is somewhat pro-US in a few areas, we need to treat him with kid gloves? Please. What his staff member did was inexcusable, and we would call for his punishment were he British, Iraqi, Japanese, or American.

As for the drug issue, I wouldn’t mind killing off drug dealers and users. All of them. I do not use illegal drugs, nor do most Americans. If most people approved of drugs, they would be legal here. So the argument you make just isn’t holding water.

May 1, 2008 - 11:20 am Joe:

> Why just recently I noticed an article that pointed out that Mexico had moved 2,000 troops into Ciudad Juarez to stem violence that has taken the lives of many people this year alone. Face it, you have a war going on right at your northern border and you can do nothing about it.

Kender’s article is shameful, and he’ll be sorry he wrote it someday. So fire the Mexican diplomat. He needs it. But the rest of the article is incoherent at best. Mexico is fighting narco-terrorists increasingly hard and he mocks them? Kender’s sort of conservatism is deeply hurtful to the conservative cause, and I am one. So we helped Colombia fend off narco-terrorists and build a stable society, but we should mock and watch a similar battle closer to us and not help? This is beyond stupidity.

The US is a rich nation with a massive demand for narcotics, and Mexico is a developing nation that is growing fast, but never had to deal with a narco war unleashed on them, and they’ll need some military equipment and training from the US to stop this. And it is our national interest for greater military cooperation and it will happen if we let bitter folks like Kinder who can’t figure out who the enemy is tell us what to do.

> At this point I must say that, given the level of corruption in the Mexican government at all levels and the fact that Mexico can’t secure its northern border enough to stop the drugs and people flowing north and the guns flowing south …

Let me get this straight. You’re asking a nation to stop weapons from traveling in from the US and the US has no responsibility here? Let me guess, you oppose the “Merida Initiative” also. A “massive aid package” right? Uh-huh. 1.4 billion isn’t didly squat to Mexico, but the military hardware, partnership, and training is priceless. As it was to Colombia.

Mexico is a friendly country that is our 3rd largest trading partner. Guys like Kender who can’t tell enemies from friends are a lost cause and embarrassing to us. Being against illegal immigration need not make one go irrational like Kender does and endanger US national security in the process because of other grievances, rather than dealing with them. Geez, grow up.

-Pelosi has Iraq & Colombia (both who she wants to fail, despite the fact that the bad guys are losing and political progress of the good guys advancing)
-Kender and his ilk have Mexico (see no political progress, hear no .., speak no ..)

Message: You’re screwed by history man. no reform is possible, and nothing anyone can do can help. Don’t try to fight the bad guys, because the bad guys will win.

Face it. Mexico is the Iraq of the Paleo-Conservatives. You can’t argue with them on it, they just get more irrational and incoherent. Mexican derangement syndrome.

May 1, 2008 - 12:47 pm kender:

Erik, perhaps you should move back here to the states. Maybe if you were here in Los Angeles today, with the traffic being made worse because the open borders/pro-illegals have decided that marching in our streets and demanding rights they are not entitled to, the over crowding of our schools and hospitals being shut down because of the flood of illegals using them for doctors offices and the ever decreasing chance of finding someone that understands what you are trying to order at the drive thru perhaps you would understand the frustration of the average American with the people of mexico.

Then perhaps you would see that my sarcasm is actually tame by comparison. Americans are angry. We are angry at our government for not doing the job they are supposed to do. We are angry at the mexican government for aiding the illegals to come here and send money home because they are too corrupt to fix their country and take care of their own citizens, and we are angry at people that tell us we just need to be more understanding of their plight and not say things that may upset them, whether those people are illegals and their supporters marching in our streets, or ex-pats living abroad posting missives in websites.

May 1, 2008 - 1:04 pm Joe:

> Erik, perhaps you should move back here to the states. Maybe if you were here in Los Angeles today, …. you would see that my sarcasm is actually tame by comparison. Americans are angry. We are angry at our government for not doing the job they are supposed to do. We are angry at the mexican government …

Kender: I live in LA, but more importantly, you’re a Paleo-Conservative, and apparently you aren’t aware that political ideology isn’t a geographical phenomenon. I’ve also worked in Mexico for an American multi-national, and lived on the Texas border. You are expressing a political ideology that isn’t firmly grounded in reality other than that we do have a problem with illegal immigration that does need to be fixed. Nothing else you’ve said is coherent, and none of your solutions, to the extent that they are such, make sense.

May 1, 2008 - 1:17 pm kender:

Joe, I can tell enemies from friends, and when a government actively pushes it’s citizens to break our laws by sneaking into our country and use our social services at will they are not a friend that I want. You are nothing more than an apologist for the illegals and perhaps a course in personal responsibility would do you well.

May 1, 2008 - 1:29 pm Joe:

> You are nothing more than an apologist for the illegals and perhaps a course in personal responsibility would do you well.

Paleo is as Paleo does. Can’t even stand up under debate, don’t know facts, so throw out ad hominems. Tell me Kinder, should we pull out of Iraq since the Iraqi’s can’t handle their own security and “can’t do a thing about it” without our help?

May 1, 2008 - 2:22 pm kender:

What have I written that is not factual, Joe? Mexicans sneak into this country, steal jobs at lower wages, use emergency rooms as doctors offices and demand their kids be taught in spanish, demand ballots and rivers test are in spanish and the mexican government aids and abets these activities by printing comic books about how to get into the U.S. safely.

Because I wont sit idly by and let these things go without commentary you toss out an attack calling me a “paleo_conservative”, which, by the way only makes you sound as if you have been thoroughly indoctrinated by a leftist organization-university maybe?-and can’t think for yourself OR you are simply against America and what she stands for, chief among those being the rule of law.

So which is it, Joe? Are you simply indoctrinated and unable to think for yourself or do you really stand against the rule of law?

May 1, 2008 - 3:07 pm Nomoremex:

Tell the mexican to steal iPhone he can sell them for more money at a Tj flea market

May 1, 2008 - 3:18 pm Jay:

Great job Kender! I’ve got you linked up at STACLU!

May 1, 2008 - 4:05 pm Joe:

> What have I written that is not factual, Joe? Because I wont sit idly by …

What I’m saying is that your attitude and proposed solutions, to the extent that they are such, don’t acknowledge known facts that I’ve brought up, and you refuse to discuss them. And on this basis you assume I’m your enemy. Pajamas media has gone way downhill if they are posting populist Paleo stuff like this.

Why don’t you admit that you don’t know the size of the Mexican economy, how much we trade with them, you’ve never heard of the Merida Initiative, nor anything about the border are except what you hear on Paleo radio and news? You won’t, but it’s true. Isn’t it? So no facts matter do they? Because you’re an “All I know is …” kind of guy. And people that don’t agree with your attitude and solutions just can’t agree that illegal immigration is a problem, right? So when I acknowledge the problem, as I have, you just ignore that and call me an apologist for illegal immigration. Meanwhile you incite hatred of your own government and delude yourself with conspiracy theories to explain why the world doesn’t adopt your attitude.

So, once again Kinder, do we pull out of Iraq because Iraqis aren’t able to handle their own security? The world wonders.

May 1, 2008 - 4:19 pm Raven:

Great post my friend! You should do this more often! When you tell it like it is you are very articulate and on the money. I didn’t know this had happened and it’s good to know of such things. The MSM as far as I can tell haven’t really covered this…that’s what blogs are for. Keep doing this Kender.

XOXO

May 1, 2008 - 4:35 pm kender:

Joe, I know the economy of mexico, the fact that they are a major trading partner with us and I have dealt with illegals extensively. I also know that Presidente Calderon is an ally of the United States, but NONE OF THAT EXCUSES the FACT that the mexican government is corrupt from the bottom up, and it is an expected and accepted part of their culture, and the mexican government exacerbates the problem of illegal immigration here while having some of the most, if not the most, onerous immigration laws in the western hemisphere.

I stand by my assessment that you are an apologist for corruption and illegal aliens, and no matter how many times to come back to whine that I am not answering moot issues you brought up the truth of the matter is that I am completely correct here in calling for the Mexican President to punish Curiel and pointing out the rampant corruption and thievery that goes on in mexico and calling for that to end as well.

Now on to your tangent about Iraq. This is not an article about Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with Mexico in this article, BUT we aren’t running security in mexico (yet) but if we were we’d be doing a better job simply because it is exceedingly hard (comparatively speaking) to bribe our guys, but as easy as breathing to bribe mexicans, which means we would get the job done. As for the Merida Initiative, mexico needs to keep doing more on their own and stop begging money and aid from us. As long as they continue to push their citizens here and demand we open our borders and cease enforcing our laws we should send them nothing but deported illegals and bills to cover their share of our medical, education and incarceration systems.

May 1, 2008 - 6:22 pm Joe:

> Joe, I know the economy of mexico, the fact that they are a major trading partner with us and I have dealt with illegals extensively. I also know that Presidente Calderon is an ally of the United States, but NONE OF THAT EXCUSES the FACT that the mexican government is corrupt from the bottom up, and it is an expected and accepted part of their culture, and the mexican government exacerbates the problem of illegal immigration here while having some of the most, if not the most, onerous immigration laws in the western hemisphere.

Well don’t throw the baby out with the bath! The Mexicans are pressuring Calderon to rein in corruption because they hate it! It isn’t expected, it is hated! Did America love corruption during the 30’s when organized crime ruled in northern cities? No. It took decades to extinguish. You say Mexicans must like crime because it occurs there? But you observe they are fighting it harder and harder, and I propose military partnership like we have in other nations in similar circumstances to help them stand up to wealthy global crime gangs. Which you’d probably ignorantly oppose if you were informed enough to even know about it.

> I am completely correct here in calling for the Mexican President to punish Curiel and pointing out the rampant corruption and thievery that goes on in mexico and calling for that to end as well.

“Calling for it to end”? You sound like a liberal. If only talk helped; if wishes were horses then beggars would ride. Mexico is inflicted with narco-gangs that rival Al-Queda for their brutality. Seriously. You can “call for” whatever you like, but it will take american military equipment and training to kill the people doing it. Just like in Colombia, just like in Iraq, and you support both of those civil-military partnerships but not the exact same thing in Mexico.

> Now on to your tangent about Iraq. This is not an article about Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with Mexico in this article …

Translation: My political philosophy is incoherent. What can I say?

It is not a tangent, and you are entirely incoherent. At least Nancy Pelosi is consistent.

> As for the Merida Initiative, mexico needs to keep doing more on their own and stop begging money and aid from us.

Translation: I’d never even heard of the Merida Initiative before you mentioned it Joe, and I’m not about to admit it!

May 1, 2008 - 7:09 pm Vladiir Val Cymbal:

Kender, your article is right on. Erik Norvelle is a bit out of touch with the real world. Perhaps he is not aware that 75% of outstanding warrants for murder in Southern California are for criminals who entered our country illegally. In ten years 80 hospitals/emergency rooms have had to close because they could no longer provide free services to illegal trespassers. Our Social Services are at a breaking point. California schools have the burden of large percentage of students that do not speak English. This disruption is a major reason why our children are far behind were they should be. The Mexican government is fraught with corruption from the local cop on the street to the legislators, judges, and military. This mentality is being exported to the U.S.

You sir, live in country than cowers in the face of terror and hopes like hell that America will come to your defense should things get really bad for you. One other thing about the country you feel so comfortable in is that they have decided that apes are human too

May 1, 2008 - 8:12 pm Vladimir Val Cymbal:

I just correct the spelling of my first name.

May 1, 2008 - 8:14 pm kender:

Joe, it is NOT the job of the American taxpayer to secure mexico’s southern border. It is mexico’s job. It si also mexico’s job to secure their northern border from transgressions, just like it is our governments job to secure our southern border from transgressions. Do you believe the border should be militarized? How much aid should we give a corrupt military that aids drug runners and violates our borders on a regular basis?

How many other nations should we give over a billion dollars to for securing their borders? And why should we put up with mexico’s president demanding we give him money with no strings attached to secure his southern border while he rails at us for wanting to secure our southern border?

My politics are extremely coherent, and because I refuse to cave to a backwards country that has shown no inkling of changing (even though I have listened to them talk about busting their corrupt system for my entire adult life) and point out that corruption is a way of life there you continue to see the validity of my points and whine.

Quick story, the year was 1987 (if memory serves) and I was loping horses at Caliente racetrack. “Loping” is a racetrack term for the act of exercising horses in the morning. I was there with my best friend, who was an apprentice jockey there at the time. He had the top agent and was riding the best horses there for the top owners, one of whom was the Tiajuana Chief of Police. After a particularly lucrative winner he rode for said Chief, the Chief invited a bunch of us out for dinner. During dinner he slipped my friend a note and said “If you have any problems with my officers, show them this note.” It was basically a get out of jail free card, and what’s more it worked for us wild and young riders quite a few times when our revelries crossed paths with the cops. I am not proud that we used that to get out of trouble, but when you are young you do stupid things. These days I would simply avoid the trouble.

Mexico is corrupt from the top down, and until they change it and stop importing their culture of corruption here, the best we can do is secure the border and stem the tide. It is their problem to repair, not ours. Now if they want to take their people home, giving us billions more a year to work with here, I can see aiding them, but at present they cost us billions just being here, and my charitable streak has run too thin to care any longer.

May 1, 2008 - 9:06 pm kender:

That should read :”you refuse to see the validity of my points and continue to whine.”

May 1, 2008 - 9:08 pm Joe:

> Joe, it is NOT the job of the American taxpayer to secure mexico’s southern border.

And it is the job of Iraq to secure its border, and Colombia to secure its borders, and … we’re helping them do it because it is in our national interest to do so. And you acknowledge there is a non-state actor war going on *on the border* with US citizens and you claim it is not in our interest top help Mexico the same way. Can you explain the inconsistency? Nope.

> How many other nations should we give over a billion dollars to for securing their borders?

Israel, Egypt, India, Philipines, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Taiwan, a host of Eastern European countries just off the top of my head. There are more. One billion isn’t diddly squat to Mexico. It is the military hardware, training, and partnerships that are of value. But treating Mexico the same way is a bad idea, right? Can you explain the inconsistency?

> I have listened to them talk about busting their corrupt system for my entire adult life.

Mexican politics has changed radically in the last 15 years. It’s absurd to claim there is no difference now.

Ignore Latin American at your peril.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05012008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/irans_winning_latin_power_play_108972.htm

May 1, 2008 - 9:34 pm kender:

Joe, if we invade mexico and replace their government then yes we should be responsible for their security. Until then they should deal with their own problems.

Why you cannot grasp that simple concept is beyond me, and I am starting to believe you are either obstinate to a degree that is clinically unsound, or you have run out of medication, and barring you showing some semblance of logic and reasoning I am going to be forced to believe that you are in one situation or another and refuse to deal with you as I am not allowed by law to prescribe you medication and I refuse to continue arguing with someone who is clearly in need of a glass belly button.

May 2, 2008 - 12:17 am Joe:

> Joe, if we invade mexico and replace their government then yes we should be responsible for their security. Until then they should deal with their own problems.

Is that what we’ve done in Colombia? No. We supplied helicopters, military training, and advisors. Did you support that? Yep, you did. And you were right because now Colombia is on the way to beating those terrorists and is a staunch American ally, though Nancy Pelosi may yet succeed in poisoning the relationship by imposing tariffs that we’ve dropped for other nations and forcing them into the arms of Europe.

You have no explanation for why you don’t support the same programs in Mexico. No explanation at all. And you certainly have no explanation for why you support the Iraq war. It’s irrational.

May 2, 2008 - 7:36 am CatoRenasci:

Erik Norvelle wrote:
I would like to re-emphasize my basic point. President Calderón is as good an ally as the U.S. has south of the border. Humor is in the eye of the beholder, and given that we are short of allies, it is better to not spit on the ones we have.

Of course, that’s precisely the problem, isn’t it. Even the Mexicans most favorably disposed to the United States could easily be mistaken for enemies. The Mexicans are still smarting from their utter humiliation in the Mexican War (at least as they perceived it — the Americans in Scott’s Army that marched from Vera Cruz to Mexico City did not regard the Mexican military with contempt — there was a lot of hard fighting, and the outcome of some of the battles was not nearly so obvious at the time as it looks in retrospect) and the fact that despite being a tremendously wealthy country in resources, Mexico is still a third world dump.

If Mexico and the Mexicans are ever going to get it together to join the 20th century (let alone the 21st), they have to totally change the way they do business and adopt the notions of civic virtue, the rule of law, and respect for life, liberty and property that has made the hated Anglo-Saxons so successful.

May 2, 2008 - 7:40 am kender:

Joe, there is a vast difference that you are apparently not taking into consideration. Columbia is a PRODUCER of these drugs while mexico is simply a CORRIDOR for them. Do you see the difference? Yes mexico has a problem with drug gangs, but they also have a huge cultural problem with corruption (its expected) and the Colombians worked hand in hand with us all these years while mexico does not. Columbia earned our aid. Mexico has not.

I no longer expect you to see the difference, Joe, or to understand the point of this article, as I have come to the conclusion that it is simply beyond your grasp, and it saddens me to know that you are clinging so fiercely to….well, nevermind, just go wring out your bib and have a great day.

May 2, 2008 - 8:20 am Roque Nuevo:

Hey there, Kender,

You make some good points about Mexico and the immigration so-called problem. However, I’d like to correct some misaprehensions, if you’ll allow me.

First, the US acquired the Southwest (minus east Texas) as a result of a war that we started with the purpose of acquiring the Southwest. It wasn’t “stealing”, it’s true, because in the end we paid them for it. They had the choice of selling or not. Trouble is, if the chose not to sell, we had the choice of remaining in Mexico as an occupying army. Sounds like extortion to me. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, if we’re talking about doubling the size of the national territory and getting the best natural port in the world for trade with the far east. I’m just saying.

Next, there seems to be widespread agreement that Mexicans hate corruption but that it’s somehow imposed on them by corrupt politician and others. This is false. Mexicans love corruption when they can use it to get out of jail, get a permit, jump the line and so forth. They hate it when they lose because someone else got the jump on them. Beyond the issue of corruption, Mexicans attitude towards the rule of law is extremely flexible (not to use some xenophobic adjective). This is summed up in the famous phrase “acato pero no obedezco”, meaning “I comply but don’t obey”. It’s incomprehensible to an Anglo mentality, since the two words are more or less synonyms. However, it means “I respect the authority of the law but I do whatever the hell I want”.

The Blackberry incident is not important at all. If our intelligence services can’t deal with a few stolen Blackberries, then it’s our damn fault. I trust them on this one.

Calderón is an important ally for us. He faces strong opposition, which is rooted in the nation’s past. Especially, the opposition is rooted in the nation’s past indoctrination into a so-called revolutionary nationalism. This so-called ideology was indoctrinated into schoolchildren from the day one since the 1930s. Therefore, Calderón is facing not only political opposition. He’s facing massive indoctrination against his rather weak reform policies. Even so, he’s been making progress where it counts–for example in modernizing the oil industry and in tax reform. If he has to use rhetoric from time to time so as not to rile up the indoctrinated masses, then, well, he has to do what he has to do. The means justify the ends here, in my opinion, because that way he may get more support for real change in policy.

Mexicans are not bad people for crossing the border to get free medical services, education and citizenship. They’e only responding to economic realities. I bet you’d do the same thing if you were in their place. I would.

May 2, 2008 - 10:07 am kender:

Roque Nuevo, I am sure the vast majority of those coming to work are good people, but that doesn’t excuse the mexican government from aiding those people to break our laws by coming here illegally to work. Mexico is a hypocrite when it comes to immigration, and they singularly cost us billions a year by sending their citizens here illegally and railing about our attempts to secure our southern border while applying their immigration laws ruthlessly.

Their criminals come up here, kill our cops, rape or women and children and murder innocent families by driving drunk and then run to mexico where the mexican government refuses to deport them to face justice, because mexico doesn’t believe in the death penalty and now the mexican supreme court has stated that life in prison is also too extreme and people facing that sentence should not be sent back to face justice for their crimes.

Is that a good ally? Is that a good neighbor? No. That is a country that should have a huge wall between them and us and have everything moving between the countries monitored to the highest extent possible. If mexicans get in trouble here they get all the protections of our legal system, even if they are here illegally (which they shouldn’t) and if we get in trouble down there (and don’t bribe our way out) we sit to rot in their jails with no legal recourse or protections of any kind.

Mexico is a country that needs a serious overhaul, and until they decide to change it and respect the rule of law on all levels we should do everything in our power to protect ourselves from being corrupted by their corruption.

May 2, 2008 - 11:15 am Roque Nuevo:

Kender:

I appreciate your response. I’m going to be abusive enough of your good faith to write a follow up.

Mexican hypocricy with respect to the immigration issue is well-known and not only in regards to your points. They treat Central American immigrants in Mexico far worse than anything one could imagine the Border Patrol ever doing. This of course receives very little press in Mexico. To add fuel to your righteous wrath over Mexican hypocricy, you say that Mexico “doesn’t believe” in the death penalty. True. But they do believe in the shot in the back of the neck. Their so-called extra judicial killings are notorious and their bloviating about human rights and the death penalty make me sick.

But hypocricy is not a political issue. It’s a moral issue. That said, let the perfectly consistent moralist throw the first stone. It’s not me. Or you, I’d venture to say.

The immigration issue is a political issue par excellence. It exists to divide people into groups, which politicians can use to win votes. There is no solution, except for Mexico improving its economy to the point where everyone born there has the opportunities they desire.

This won’t happen until Mexico reforms its “nationalist revolutionary” economy. This is where Calderón is an ally and this is where he needs our support. He must use rhetoric about the immigrant issue because otherwise he risks alienating those who would otherwise support his reforms.

All I’m asking you to do is to understand his position. He’s subject to pressures that you are not aware of, and he has to do and say things to deal with them that are “hypocritical”, but his ideas are truly more in agreement with yours than you’d imagine.

May 2, 2008 - 12:50 pm Joe:

> Joe, there is a vast difference that you are apparently not taking into consideration. Columbia is a PRODUCER of these drugs while mexico is simply a CORRIDOR for them. Do you see the difference?

Do I see the difference? I pointed it out and it support my argument. But it doesn’t support yours, and notice you’ve not said how it supports your point that we shouldn’t help Mexico with security. That’s a curious omission. How does that obvious fact help your argument? Why should we help Colombia and not Mexico?

> Yes mexico has a problem with drug gangs, but they also have a huge cultural problem with corruption (its expected) and the Colombians worked hand in hand with us all these years while mexico does not. Columbia earned our aid. Mexico has not.

Pure BS. Helping the Colombians was hugely controversial because of the same reasons you cite for Mexico. It still is! Some congresspeople fought it tooth and nail because of corruption in the military and government. And the dems want to kill any trade pacts for the same reasons. Your trying to rewrite history to support your point, and it isn’t going to fly. Just Google if your memory is that short. But the tide turned in Colombia after a lot of bad guys were killed and the good guys felt safe coming out of the woodwork. Without security sufficient to the task, which Colombia did not have the institutions for, they’d still be mired in corruption and murder.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/killertoc.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/War_On_Terrorism/PickingEnemies_Colombia.html

BTW, I left Canada off the list of nations that we provide security for. We patrol the Canadian border with predator drones out of the airbase Grand Forks because the Canadians don’t have the capacity to protect their own border.

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200702/20070212_UAV_CAN_US_Border.htm

And I bet you don’t know that predator drones also patrol the Mexican border from Fort Huachuca. Fact is that billions of taxpayer dollars are spent for both borders now. Kender, should we stop partolling both borders at taxpayer expense and “call for” Mexico and Canada to do it?

May 2, 2008 - 12:54 pm Joe:

> Even the Mexicans most favorably disposed to the United States could easily be mistaken for enemies.

CatoRenasci: This is absurd. I’ve met thousands of Mexicans in my work and travel and I’ve never had anyone even say anything offensive. The same is not true in Europe, where people get in your face (not so much in the last 2-3 years) and say “I don’t like your president!”

> The Mexicans are still smarting from their utter humiliation in the Mexican War …

That is also absurd. Find me any credible source at all that would support this view of Mexican culture. A book, novel, TV show, anything at all that displays shame over the US/Mexican war. Where you do see this is in the Balkans and in certain parts of the ME.

> … despite being a tremendously wealthy country in resources, Mexico is still a third world dump.

They are climbing out of that. They advanced from nowhere to our 3rd largest trading partner in a few years. The question is whether that will continue or not because of the security problems they are having. That’s why I support US/Mexico security partnerships, and Kender doesn’t. If they can continue the rate of growth that they have had the last number of years they will make great strides.

The Paleo conservatives are a trip. Mexico is as to the Paleos as Iraq is the the liberals. See no progress, her no progress, speak no progress. The economic statistics alone nuke your argument.

May 2, 2008 - 1:10 pm RecklessProcess:

Legalize Pot, the way William Buckly Jr would have wanted it, and take the legs off the drug trade. We would release several million pot offenders from jail and lots of cops could start attending to violent crime instead of victimless crime.

May 2, 2008 - 3:19 pm B.C.:

Apparently neither Joe, New Rogue nor Erik has even had a the pleasure of routinely having members of their families, friends and local communities crashed into, robbed or shot, nor had to wait for half a day to get medical attention for serious conditions in an ER because it was filled, beyond capacity, by illegals with snotty-nosed kids with colds.

NAFTA? You want to talk about “lost jobs”? Over 80% of small vegetable farms in FL have gone under since NAFTA was ratified. You want to talk about illegals being “good people”? It’s quite apparent that none of you know LEGAL Mexican immigrant families, who feel pretty much the same way that “Paleo-Cons” feel about them. They stood in line, did the right things, and came here to become AMERICANS, not “Mexicans-Living-In-America”.

To you apologists for the corrupt cultures of Central and South America (and most of the Caribbean, for that matter), try entering their countries illegally, birthing a baby (on the tax payers’ dinero) and then demand that you be given free housing, food, health care and education (in English) for life.

When you’ve accomplished that, then, and only then, can you get back to us “Paleo-Cons” and tell us that we’re wrong for demanding the border be shut down and all of the illegals kicked back to their third world cesspool(s).

Until then, YOU pay for the illegals and leave my money alone to take care of my family.

F.E.T.E.*

*—Google It Yourselves.

May 2, 2008 - 4:17 pm kender:

Joe, I have tried to get you to understand teh difference between columbia and mexico. We went after the beginning of the drug problem in columbia. Mexico is simply a corridor, and the best we can do is close the door. We police our side, the mexicans should police theirs, but they don’t, at least not their northern border.

Mexico is starting to show a touch of hope, but it is still too little to toss over a billion dollars with no strings attached over the border.

As for not hearing anything offensive from mexicans you must seriously be in need of not only a glass belly button but also a device that will help your hearing (I’ll have to work on inventing that one) because I have been hearing offensive things from mexicans for quite a few years, including the little chicana that called my girlfriend a bitch for no reason when she walked by our car (we were on our way to the store on may day last year and the kids were ditching school to protest for “immigrant rights”) and the entire staff of the local jack in the box taking may day off two years ago for, as the manager put it, “to march for la revolucion.” I have heard and seen more offensiveness in the last five years from protesters calling me a racist for demanding that my government do the job they said they’d do in 1986 when we approved reagans amnesty, and I am damned tired of ignorant half witted hypocrites calling me a racist and turning around and saying “Go back to europe gringo.”

On the other hand it is mightily entertaining when people proudly display their ignorance and hypocrisy (one of my favorites is the people that claim the southwest U.S. is mexican land-they get really angry when you say “Gaudalupe Hidalgo”, but only when they actually know what it is, which is about 25% of them)so in that vein let me say Joe that I owe you a large and hearty thank you for entertaining me these past couple of days.

So what’s up next in the Never Ending Moronic Sideshow that is the World According to Joe?

Myself and other readers anxiously await the next installment.

May 2, 2008 - 11:17 pm Sonnabend:

Dear Joe and Eric.

If the Mexicans want to make a contribution to the US in terms of citizenship and responsibility, maybe they should look at emigrating legally.

Yes, it takes time, yes it is a long process, but the alternative is that they are otherwise there illegally, and as such are criminals and should be deported.

I also note that the laws re immigration in Mexico are quite different to those in the US, and I find it the height of hypocrisy when Calderon said “Mexico does not stop at our borders”..I beg to differ.

It does.

My take on illegal immigration is simple.

Build the wall.Post HUGE signs warning anyone approaching from the desert that deadly force is authorised.

“Illegal immigrants will be shot.Survivors will be shot again.”

Please save us the crap on Iraq, what you are saying has no basis in reality, and I suspect you are a liberal. You are certainly an apologist for illegals that steal, rob, rape, murder, traffic drugs, extort, traffic in human beings (coyotes and other smugglers).

At least three Marines are dead , killed by illegal immigrants. It is a logical progression that had the illegals stayed where they were, the Marines would be alive.

It is not the business of the USA to help Mexico solve its internal problems.

It is not the fault of the US if Mexico is singularly and pathologically unable to hold a simple election without it turning into a three ring circus.

Mexico seems pathologically incapable of getting anything right..except when it comes to spitting in the face of its neighbour.

Bottom line:they are illegal, they have no rights, they should be given no rights, they are not citizens, they are breaking the law and they should be treated as such.

Better yet, treat them according to Mexican law on immigration. Judge them using Mexican law. Sentence them accordingly.

I gaurantee you they will stop coming.

Sauce for the goose, methinks?

May 3, 2008 - 6:44 am GrumpyOldFart:

Drugs: There are two ways to address ANY economic problem, on the supply side and on the demand side. For cocaine traffic, the obvious supply side measure is to attempt to dry up the source where it is grown. So far as I can tell, that is what has been attempted, with mixed success, in Columbia. Obviously that is a work in progress which no doubt requires some tweaking. On the demand side, the obvious (for direct control of application) measures are punishment for drug traffickers and securing the border, as the border (airport, seaport, whatever point of entry) is as close as there is to a “bottleneck” in the logistics of the trade. The problem with this idea is that it leaves control necessarily in the hands of one or more governments, or in other words, in control of one or more entities which have little or no accountability other than to themselves. The question becomes how much you are able to trust the government in question, and the only realistic guide you have is past performance.
The record of neither the US nor Mexico inspires me with confidence, as far as actually doing the job it contracted to do with a minimum of corruption, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for any unbiased observer to say that the US would probably make a much better job of it than Mexico would. Expecting the idea of US investment in the security of Mexico’s *southern* border, while Mexico’s officials are on record as opposing the US’s investments to secure ITS OWN border, to be well recieved is simply irrational. Whether President Calderon has to say that as a political sop to factions in Mexico is completely immaterial. If true, it means that he is caught between two fires, and if he’s sincere in his desire to *fix* the problem then I sympathize with him. Nonetheless, that doesn’t imply that it is even in the interest, much less the duty, of any American to throw themselves on one of those fires to shield him from it. That is precisely what the US would be doing if we failed to secure our own borders, lent him aid of various kinds, played nicey nice with him, and only *then* found out if he was actually gonna DO THE JOB.
I have no problem at all with the US helping the Mexicans stem the drug trade. I think in many cases more could be accomplished by legalization and regulation, but that’s neither here nor there. But if a government actively supports their citizens penetrating my country’s borders, opposes us at every turn when we try to take *the exact same steps* to secure OUR country against the very same well armed drug lords… then for that government to expect us to aid them in their identical efforts is simply irrational.
I have spent the last 13 years alternating between Texas, New Mexico, Florida, Arizona, S. California and Nevada. Trust me on this one, ‘Reconquista’ is not a fringe concept. I won’t call it a majority opinion in the Latino community, but it’s certainly not uncommon. While I understand that president Calderon may feel like he has to acknowledge them as political bedfellows, he must also understand that the US must likewise acknowledge them as a cultural threat.

Blackberries: Stealing is stealing, regardless. The man should be under a standing indictment for theft, to be invoked should he ever be found on US soil for any reason whatsoever.

English: The US economy is 22% of the world economy. Add in the UK, Australia and New Zealand, and I expect it’s about 1 in 3 that any international aspect of your business will be done with someone who speaks English as a first language. I don’t think any other language is that universal, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong. By not requiring people in US schools to learn English, we are doing them an injustice. They DON’T NEED paid teachers for their own language, they are surrounded at home by people who teach them for free every hour of every day. To the extent they do need them, it’s not as if their aren’t elective language courses available. Should learning Spanish be encouraged? Absolutely, as should Japanese, Chinese and at least one Middle Eastern language. That’s the schools *job*, to prepare you with knowledge and skills you are fairly likely to find useful as an adult. But it is not the duty of the government, nor the schools, to pander to the prejudices of every single demographic that makes it up. Pick ONE language that is deemed most likely to be necessary to an adult in that culture, usually the native language of the majority, and require it, just like any other required course. Print all government documents in the one language its citizens are expected and required to learn. Anything else is a service you shouldn’t be required to pay for if you don’t want it.

That’s not racism. That’s wanting children, ANYONE’S children, to come out of school having learned something that’s actually *of use to them.*

May 3, 2008 - 8:09 am Joe:

> Mexico is simply a corridor, and the best we can do is close the door. We police our side, the mexicans should police theirs, but they don’t, at least not their northern border.

Walls don’t stop drugs. Give me any example of where a wall stops drugs or money anywhere in the world. Just one. And show me one national border of a decent country, just one, where a nation stops its citizens from leaving. North Korea is a police state. Entry is always controlled by the destination nation. Canada is the same. They could care less who enters the US, and that’s why we use predator drones on both borders.

> Mexico is starting to show a touch of hope, but it is still too little to toss over a billion dollars with no strings attached over the border. Not to mention that hundreds of thousands of US citizens cross the Mexican border every day, and tens of thousands of trucks carrying goods. You seem to think only Mexicans cross the Mexican border. What you want to do affects US citizens and business in the Southwest. I’ve lived on the Texas border for years, I have family and friends there, and I’ll return there to retire. Too bad for you, we have a constitution and you can’t screw the entire Southwest as bad as you’d like. Mexico is the 12th largest economy in the world, and the Southwest ’s economy is linked to Mexico, as is the northern states linked to Canada.

> As for not hearing anything offensive from mexicans you must seriously be in need of not only a glass belly button but also a device that will help your hearing …

Kender, I’m talking about Mexicans in Mexico. Not Mexican/American inner city street gangs of Los Angeles. I’ve been in a lot of places in Mexico from dusty old towns just over the Texas border, to Mexico City, Guanajuato, Tampico, Monterrey, etc. I’ve walked formiles down the beach in Tampico and met high school students who love to practice their English and converse. I’ve never been insulted or even an unkind word said to me. I’m sure if I hooked up with a gang subculture somewhere I’d be insulted and worse, but in polite society there just isn’t this hostility you think. And polite society is the norm. I live in LA too, so if you think I don’t know where to go to get accosted, you’d be wrong, but I don’t generally go to the seedy underbelly of LA. You shouldn’t either. I grew up in Indiana, and if you think places like inner city Indianapolis are safe, believe me they aren’t. Crime is rampant in those areas, as it is in inner LA. You’ll get insulted and killed, but it has always been that way.

May 3, 2008 - 8:12 am GrumpyOldFart:

Oops.

And yes, our own immigration system badly needs to be overhauled. From what I understand, I get the impression that if there were *no* illegal aliens here, we would be grumbling about a labor shortage. 5% unemployment used to be called “full employment” in this country, as the rest were assumed to basically be between jobs. As long as the economic incentive is there, *someone* will find a way to get here to fill it, as inevitable as water running downhill. And the more government paperwork dams the stream, the more it will come out of its banks and flood in places you didn’t want it and can’t control it.

May 3, 2008 - 8:19 am Joe:

> Mexico is starting to show a touch of hope, but it is still too little to toss over a billion dollars with no strings attached over the border.

Mexico is the world’s 12th largest economy by GDP, and passed a trillion per year in 2004. It is roughly 1.4 trillion now. 1.4 billion of the Merida Initiative isn’t diddly squat to us, or to them. What is important is the military hardware and training that is not sold on the free market. There is no other way to get it than by through Congress. That is the importance of the Merida Initiative, which is exactly like what we did with Colombia. We have dome that with dozens of other nations throughout the world, and you don’t mind a bit. But Mexico you don’t though a narco war directly threatens US citizens and Calderon was elected on a get tough with criminals and narcos policy. The Mexican public is demanding a crackdown. It makes no sense to oppose selling military hardware, training, and support to defeat these vicious thugs.

May 3, 2008 - 8:21 am Joe:

> My take on illegal immigration is simple. Build the wall.Post HUGE signs warning anyone approaching from the desert that deadly force is authorised. “Illegal immigrants will be shot.Survivors will be shot again.”

Sonnabend: Your plan is a fantasy. And ugly one. Like Kender, you think only Mexicans cross the border. But more US citizens cross it than Mexicans each day. And over a half a billion people cross each day legally. So your plan is a joke, and besides any US troops worth having aren’t going to sigh up to have a chance to shoot US citizens.

> It is not the business of the USA to help Mexico solve its internal problems.

So let’s get out of Iraq, pull our military advisors out of Colombia and their hardware, and all the other nations where we partner this way. The business of the US is wherever its interests lie, and a quelling a narco war on the border is in our interests. Just ask Brownsville, McAllen, Laredo, or El Paso.

> It is not the fault of the US if Mexico is singularly and pathologically unable to hold a simple election without it turning into a three ring circus.

You’re misinformed. The last election was closer than our 2000 debacle and they pulled it off quite well by all accounts and international standards. andthey rejected the leftist candidate who holds views your ilk claim all Mexicans hold. Obviously they don’t.

> treat them according to Mexican law on immigration. Judge them using Mexican law. Sentence them accordingly. I gaurantee you they will stop coming. Sauce for the goose, methinks?

Mexican law has changed just now. They do not treat illegal immigrants as criminals anymore.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/237249

May 3, 2008 - 8:49 am kender:

Joe, walls stop all kinds of things from happening. For examples of this ask Hadrian, the Chinese, any Middle Ages Lord or any government entity. If walls did not work they would not have kept building them for 5 thousand years.

As for giving mexico military hardware, here’s another difference between them and columbia. If corrupt columbians get hold of said equipment they are unable to drive into the U.S. directly to use it. If corrupt mexican military members have it there is nothing to stop them from sliding over our border (as they do right now) and using it to aid the drug dealers.

What part of the following equation do you not understand?

Mexicans expect corruption. They expect to pay bribes. In fact, in 2007 they paid 2.5 billion in bribes. Maybe instead of US giving them half that amount they can simply start paying the bribes to their government, but then their economy might fall apart when everyone that wasn’t getting a bribe refused to do any actual work.

May 3, 2008 - 9:37 am Sonnabend:

>>Sonnabend: Your plan is a fantasy. And ugly one. Like Kender, you think only Mexicans cross the border.<<

Uh, how many Americans have illegally gone across the border into Mexico? How many brave the desert and pay a coyote to be smuggled INTO Mexico? Name me ONE.

<>

Yeah they do. Legally. Your point?

<>

Ah but they do. On many military areas where there are signs that say USE OF DEADLY FORCE AUTHORISED. In Dreamland where any plane that strays into that restricted airspace is likely to be shot down without warning. Where trespassers can be shot on sight.

<>

Thank you, your liberalism is exposed at last.Thats twice you’ve invoked Iraq. The cases aren’t parallel, you know it, I know it

Try again.

As for Mexico being able to look after its own affairs, as I understand it they come to the US, work illegally and send the money home because there is an unemployment problem in Mexico.

If Mexico cleans up its employment problems, the illegals wont want to come to the US.

Res ipsa loquitur.

<>

I am not that concerned with Mexican law. If I had my way, the wall would be built, the area mined and armed troops on duty.

Legal immigrants don’t come via the desert, btw, they come in airplanes.

If they want to emigrate, let them do so legally.

What part of this don’t you understand?

May 3, 2008 - 4:29 pm Joe:

> Uh, how many Americans have illegally gone across the border into Mexico? How many brave the desert and pay a coyote to be smuggled INTO Mexico? Name me ONE. Yeah they do. Legally. Your point?

My point is how do you think you’ll get that many legal crossings of people and trucks while still stopping illegal traffic? Because you squeeze so hard the legal traffic will slow so much people would stop crossing altogether. We say this after 9/11 though I fully supported the extra security. Relaxing it had to be done to get business done and legal traffic across. You build a wall it won’t help unless you squeeze the points of entry hard. The way you cross quickly is to get registered ahead of time as legit so you can go through quickly without being checked. That is the way all security works. The lines are backed up for two hours now with nothing to declare and a bicycle (or on foot) so some guy can ask you two questions and wave you through.

> On many military areas where there are signs that say USE OF DEADLY FORCE AUTHORISED. In Dreamland where any plane that strays into that restricted airspace is likely to be shot down without warning. Where trespassers can be shot on sight.

You can authorize whatever you want, but you won’t get US troops shooting at US citizens. The police and private security are a different matter. You can’t use US troops unless you can convince the american people that it is a matter of high national security, and the problem is your Paleo brethren keep losing elections. Soldiers won’t do it, and Congress won’t let them. We had US troops on the Texas border shoot some folk in the 90’s and it caused an uproar even in Congress.

> Thank you, your liberalism is exposed at last.Thats twice you’ve invoked Iraq. The cases aren’t parallel, you know it, I know it.

They are, and why won’t you give the reason you think they aren’t? What is the relevant difference that Mexico is different than Colombia regarding military partnership? You answer is to say “nu-uh”?

May 3, 2008 - 8:27 pm Joe:

> Joe, walls stop all kinds of things from happening. For examples of this ask Hadrian, the Chinese, any Middle Ages Lord or any government entity. If walls did not work they would not have kept building them for 5 thousand years.

The Chinese wall refers to several walls that failed, though they tried and tried to perfect it so it would not. The failure at the walls strongest time did not stop the invasion of the Mongols who conquered the whole country and set up the Yuan Dynasty in 1270.

But sure, walls stop all sorts of things. Like trade. I grew up in Indiana a stone’s throw from I-69, and various states are colaborating to extend that highway all the way down the the tip of Texas. They are spending zillions of dollars to shave off 20 minutes of the trip to/from the midwest.

But oh, you say “No problem, ’seal the border’ but trade will cross as always”. This assumes a neutron bomb type of security where all illegals and illegal traffic are magically distinguishable. But in reality, the just make it much slower for the 95% of legal traffic to try to get the 5% illegal that is trying to slip through declared points of entry. That’s right. Surprise! Illegal traffic flows over legal pints of entry. Traffic slows to a certain point, and companies leave for elsewhere to do business. China generally. I’ve worked on the border with import/export facilities and I can tell you that the 80’s and 90’s were spent building just-in-time inventories.

But you know what is the kicker, Kender? Even if your perfect security scenario worked, did you know that 50% of illegals cross legally? I’ll bet you didn’t. So you’ll make everyone wait longer to go over the border, and businesses will relocate overseas. And to top it off, you finally discover the obvious truth that most illegals arrive here legally. So why don’t you go master plan someone else’s universe that you understand. Deal?

Oh, and by the way, to build a fence in TX (half of the border is in TX), unlike Arizona and CA generally, the government has to claim a lot of private property to build the fence. Emmanent domain. You’re opposed to that right? Well you aren’t anymore, because the feds are suing ranches, families, and small business out the ying-yang to grab that land for a fence that Texans think is a joke for all the reasons I mentioned.

So you want to screw much of TX business (typical Angelino), kill NAFTA (typical Paleo), screw TX private land owners, and then …. When you discover that half of illegals cross legally, then you’ll want an additional army (not including the one you hired to patrol the new fence) to track down visa violations. That’s a big plan you got there. Better get more friends in Congress than you got. Because the Paleos don’t tend to win elections, and the Secure Fence Act was a rider on the Iraq War emergency spending bill, and it wasn’t debated at all so our legislators are getting a little worried.

> As for giving mexico military hardware, here’s another difference between them and columbia. …. there is nothing to stop [Mexicans] from sliding over our border (as they do right now) and using it to aid the drug dealers.

Nothing to stop them? Not even common sense and self-preservation? You’re question begging; assuming the truth of your argument. They can’t fight corruption because they’re corrupt? …. and the Iraqis just don’t want freedom do they? They are incorrigible. It’s a silly argument. They turned back a leftist in the last election and elected a man who promised a get tough policy with corruption and narcos. And you say it all means nothing. Again, Iraq is to the libs and Mexico is to the Paleos. Iraq will always be a quagmire to the libs, and Mexico will always be a quagmire to the Paleos. Mexico can advance rapidly to 12th in GDP in the world (as they have), but it doesn’t matter to them. Mexico is far better positioned to win against the narcos than Colombia ever was, and Colombia is winning.

< Mexicans expect corruption. They expect to pay bribes. In fact, in 2007 they paid 2.5 billion in bribes.

Mexicans love corruption as much as we loved it during Al Capone’s heyday and decades thereafter in our large cities. “They are corrupt so they can’t fight corruption” blah blah blah circular arguments. People that suffer corruption love it? That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. It hurts everyone, and they know it. They have a 1.4 trillion dollar economy so your figure isn’t shocking as you’d like to think. And if you think the U.S has little bribery, how do you think Marijuana got to be our largest cash crop? Wanna guess how much bribery there is in the U.S.? Hint: it’s more than 2.5 billion, though small as a percent.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=2735017

May 3, 2008 - 9:47 pm Michael Canzano:

Face facts, “An addition of “America Hating Mexicans” to our Nation carries the same consequences as an addition of Muslims to a Nation. Both compute to a subtraction in civilization.”
American Christian Infidel

May 10, 2008 - 4:22 am R Faber:

Mr. Norvelle votes for Bush in 2004 then moves to Spain for the next five years…dodging the bullet? Bush not only fails to secure our borders but actively colludes with Mexico and Canada to efface our national security and sovereignty. While Norvelle debates Mexico’s emergence, has he considered who initiated it’s corrupt foundation…SPAIN! History outlines Mexico’s historic feudalism and corruption. Norvelle’s myopic grasp of runaway Mexican invasion/reconquest of America is disturbing. Come back to America and sample the day-by-day violent repudiation of decency reported border-to-border via local/national news.

The litany of crime perpetrated by your “emergent Mexican peoples” is sickening. Mexican immigrants are not criminal if they come here legally and honor the written code of law. But all who live here illegally are all ready criminals ipso facto.

Perhaps Norvelle is just a PR agent in absentia for our do-nothing State Department!

May 10, 2008 - 7:14 pm Joe:

> Come back to America and sample the day-by-day violent repudiation of decency reported border-to-border *via local/national news*

Yep, that’s right. Reality doesn’t happen on the border. Nope. Reality is when news reports on it. Perception = reality.

I’ve lived on the TX/Mexico border for a number of years, and still have family, friends, and business associates who live *on* the border. Property against the river. And funny thing is, there are no illegals crossing there, but they feds still want to claim much of it by emmanent domain for a fence where no one crosses. The fact that you think news represents reality on the border is very funny. I’ll bet you spend the rest of your time telling people how biased most news is, and you’d be right.

May 15, 2008 - 9:00 pm

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