Pajamas Media

73 Comments

1. David Thomson:

Why is Helen Smith reluctant to be brutally frank? She is referring to men in a generic manner. The reality, of course, is that this article is actually dealing with white men—the so-called scum of the Earth. White males are the alleged oppressors of women and minorities of either sex. The late Susan Sontag referred to them as a cancer. Ms. Smith should also not be so eager to run away from reality. We cannot afford to allow the vile David Duke and his disgusting ilk to dominate this long ignored and awkward discussion.

Feb 13, 2009 - 1:34 am 2. Robert:

The addiction isn’t to success. It’s to feeding their kids, housing their families, doing the necessary. Clowns who claim that this is addiction to success clearly have absolutely no clue of what they are talking about. These Bozos need to lose THEIR jobs for being so far out of touch with the realities with what men and their families face. Shame on them!

Feb 13, 2009 - 1:53 am 3. Viewpoint:

Sympathy, I agree with. Can’t hurt.

The rest is from your point of view.

You are a psychologist, so you think therapy with a (sometimes arrogant) stranger who doesn’t know as much as he thinks he does can provide something that just talking to friends can’t.

You are a materialist person (apparently), so you are going to come from that point of view, instead of taking the opportunity of a job loss to grow in a different way (that you don’t even know exists).

Lastly, you are a woman discussing what it’s like to be a man in a sense. While you have better insight than a lot of women, you also don’t know how much you don’t know.

Feb 13, 2009 - 3:32 am 4. Dadofhomeschoolers:

The thinking that men are addicted to success is a crock straight out of the south end of a north bound bull.

This thinking comes from the notion that there is no difference from men and women.

Fact is Men are instinctively programmed to provide for their families.

Finding a new job, becomes your job.

FWIW
Steve Spangler

Feb 13, 2009 - 4:14 am 5. Bilgeman:

Dr. Helen:

“PJM readers, if you have any better advice than “stop being addicted to success” for the recently unemployed or for their family members, please share it with us or add any other comment about this article below.”

I work in maritime, where losing your job is part of the gig.

Get up in the morning as though you were still at work, because you are. Your job is now to find another job.

Try to keep the same routines you had at work,(turn-to at 0800, coffee break at 1000-1015, lunch 1200-1300, break at 1500, knock off at 1700, to give you an example of a shipboard dayworker’s workday).

We take comfort in our routines.

If you were in the habit of working overtime, you can now spend that time with your family.

Get on unemployment, (I know, the money’s pitiful and who needs another “DMV-type” experience), but it IS money coming in, and it also tags your former employer…if everyone hit up their unemployment benefits, (which is money whose premiums you didn’t see in your paycheck), then businesses with high turnover rates or itchy layoff fingers would have to pay higher UI premiums, and be at a disadvantage to businesses that hold onto their workers.
(This would be a Good Thing).

And most UI offices I’ve been to also have Job databases available. If your skills are ones that have been usurped by the H-1B-type visa programs, you should get on the horn to your Congressmen to send “Visa-Boy” back where he came from and let you start eating HIS lunch.

You should have been doing that already. If you had, you might not be out of work.

My first round of apps or interviews would be my former firm’s competitors…does Macy’s tell Gimbel’s? They don’t have to. All the former Macy’s people are working at Gimbel’s now, see?

I’d stay in touch with my former colleagues still working at the firm. Since you were axed, they’ve probably got it in mind that the skids might be greased for them as well, so they might be in your shoes next quarter.

And if you’re still employed, keep in touch with your buds, and bird-dog for ‘em if you hear of anything good.

The best jobs I’ve gotten have been former shipmates calling me aboard.

Good Luck

Feb 13, 2009 - 4:14 am 6. Kim:

My son and my brother each lost their jobs around Thanksgiving. Thankfully, they’ve both found new jobs in the past couple of weeks.

In both cases, some sympathy and reinforcement was useful. The next step, very quickly, is to help them develop a strategy for getting through the financial worries and finding the next job.

To blame a man for losing a job due to factors outside his control isn’t just “inhumane,” it’s inhuman.

Feb 13, 2009 - 4:43 am 7. David Rogers:

Advice: avoid Kevin Helliker like the plague. Shun him. Actively boycott publications that employ him.

And remember you lost your job during the Obama recession, and vote accordingly.

Rocket science this ain’t.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:00 am 8. BD57:

“addicted to success?” Hardly.

No statistics here, just an opinion: the overwhelming majority of men with families who find themselves suddenly unemployed (or, for those who are self-employed, who see a significant drop in gross income) aren’t worried about how they’ll eat & what they’ll do, they’re worried about failing their wife & kids.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:11 am 9. Observation:

Usually other people around him (the guy who lost the job) who work are cool and sympathetic about it. They are out in the work world and know what the deal is.

The nasty people, in a lot of cases, are the people around him who don’t work (like a sit-at-home wife). She has no gratitude when he works, but bitter words for him if he doesn’t work (just like her … LOL). Unemployment might be a time to look around and jettison the people who are just taking you for granted.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:16 am 10. leishman:

Dr. Helen,

Nice article. You’re quite right that many assume the man’s job/income is a meal-ticket for all (spouse, ex-, kids, girlfriend, etc.) and the “addicted to success” trope is a (rather unfair) way of blaming the now-no-meal-ticket guy (I’m intentionally avoiding the word “victim”). Your analogy to the cruelty of blaming a grieving person as having “love addiction” is right-on. And what’s the alternative to “success addiction”–”failure addiction”? Like that’s an improvement. Face it, the relatively uneducated reporters who put out this treacle are not great thinkers. Cf. Gell-Mann amnesia effect.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:26 am 11. Fordguy:

Here’s an idea – if the therapist says that you’re addicted to success, tell him or her that you won’t be paying for this session, because he or she is just addicted to money. See how that one goes over…

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:40 am 12. Nony Mouse:

I’ve seen one or two guys who I might consider to be ‘addicted to success’ – they were the guys who lost a high paying, very specialized job, and they refused to “settle” for a smaller salary for months to years afterward. Even if that meant racking up debt, and mooching off of other people (in one case, taking advantage of friends for rent, in the other, a family of four living off of a spouse’s teachers salary and family friends). Hey, if you want to find the same type of job you left and you can afford the search, more power to you. It’s when you can’t afford the search and won’t take a good (but not fantastic) paying job that I’m not impressed.
If someone has lost their job without cause, berating them is just not the way to go. Supportive encouragement is good. “Men” like the people I mentioned above are a tiny, though obnoxious, minority, since most people I’ve known to loose their job go about trying to find something useful and paid to do with their time … and I didn’t like their interpersonal style for entirely different reasons. And, sorry to disappoint you David, they weren’t both white.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:43 am 13. tim maguire:

#2 Robert says all that need sto be said on the subject–we are not addicted to success, we are addicted to doing the best we can to provide our familes with the best lives we can give them.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:56 am 14. grichens:

Having survived the loss of my job at the head office of a major bank over a decade ago, my advice to people in a similar circumstance is to recognize that the skills needed to survive attrition in a corporate environment are not necessarily the same skills required for successful job (and presumably financial) performance.

After losing my job I started a business using much of the same skills I utilized at the bank; taking on a partner at the time. The business has thrived and I can say with complete confidence that, if I were still working that the bank I would not be having anything that remotely approaches the quality of life that I enjoy today; plus I am earning far more money as my own boss. I still keep the termination letter from the bank as a trophy of sorts.

Surely luck and support are important, but courage and the _will_ to succeed are more so. I submit that most men (as we are talking about men here) who are profoundly affected by the loss of their long-standing employment have in their core the qualities that make them most conducive to coming back. As the saying goes: “If you can’t join ‘em, beat ‘em.”

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:56 am 15. Jake Was Here:

Finally, if you feel that you may be clinically depressed because of your situation, seek treatment.

I would, but thanks to losing my job I CAN’T F–KING AFFORD TO.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:58 am 16. bear:

#4 HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. I’ve been through this a few times and most recently – now. It sounds like the shrinks the author refers to are focused on the upper echelon of the white male work force. There might be a grain of truth to the theory, when (as I experienced during the last recession) one loses a career you’ve invested your entire life and loyalties to, one does become embittered. Especially if one understands how arbitrary and capricious the process is. To me now, it’s a perfect storm of events that takes retirement out of the picture, primarily because of the ineptitude of CEOs that drive the marketplaces they control. And gives me pause to consider
another way to occupy myself. (reading this blog is one ) But I have hope that the big O will find me a job. (driving a wheel barrow most likely)

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:04 am 17. Mark:

I would add one more thing to your list of advice for friends and family of those who have recently lost their job: If you ask what you can do for them, be prepared for and respect the answer “nothing.”

If someone has just lost their income (and with it gained a countdown on how long they can afford to keep a roof over their head), broken their daily routine, had most of their short-term (and many of their long-term) goals stripped from under them, and perhaps lost a bit of their personal identity and sense of direction, there is a lot that they are just going to have to do on their own. Many of these things simply cannot be fixed, until they’ve located a new employer or source of steady income. If you ignore this and try to fix everything yourself, or to “help” where it’s not wanted, you will only end up aggravating that person with what he sees as meddling, frustrating yourself when you don’t get the desired results–and that frustration will almost certainly add to the already high levels of frustration that looking for a new job in the current market is likely to cause.

Wives, sometimes when your husband says he doesn’t need any help, he means it–or at least, there’s nothing you can actively do to improve the situation; sometimes the best emotional support you can give is just to be the one person he sees today who is cheerful, listens to him, and does not reject him.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:24 am 18. FaceInTheCrowd:

For a prominent member of the psychology field to speak positively of men would be tantamount to treason.

This is the same organization who claims boys mature/learn/grow up/understand things slower than girls. The same organization that advocates calling normal boy/male behavior a disease, ADHD, and doping up “the sick”. The same organization that promulgates that if something goes wrong in a heterosexual relationship, it’s the man’s fault until proven innocent.

Psychology is a staunch feminist bastion that will never stop, in lock step with their ardent feminists allies, until men are officially declared second class citizens. At the moment, the declaration is only unofficial.

Men as second class citizens? Unofficial? Yes.
Who’s expected to provide for the family on the one hand but cannot lay a hand on children without fear of allegations of abuse?
Which gender can be accused, and convicted, of a sex related crime only on the allegation of the other gender?
When a sex crime is alleged, which gender has immunity from disclosing their identity and prosecution?
Which gender is the throw away gender? Who gets supplanted by the government?
Which gender will be made to pay in the event of a divorce? Which will get custody?
Which gender is constantly killed, abused, whipped, mangled, and derided in the media, for laughs and money?
Which gender, if killed, abused, whipped, mangled, and derided in the media causes outrage?
Which gender, if you speak ill of it, will cause those around you to get angry and upset with you?
Which gender, if you speak ill of it, will cause those around you to knowingly nod their heads?

That Dr. Helen accuses men of being addicted to success is merely a symptom of the contempt that she feels for men.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:28 am 19. UnmooredLefty:

“Why are therapists and others chastising men?”

Because they can with no fear of repercussions? Because they shoot off their mouths (keyboards) before thinking? Because despite advanced degrees they really aren’t all that smart? Because it gets them in with the “cool” crowd? Because saying something stupid that others agree with is much simpler than considering options that might be more correct? Because way too many “therapists” need help pulling their cranial cavities from their rectal apertures?

Have I hit on the right one yet?

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:46 am 20. david foster:

There seems to be a general assumption that *women* do not suffer all that much when losing their jobs. There are actually quite a lot of women who take their careers very seriously and who eperience a great deal of pain at a job loss or even a severe career setback.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:56 am 21. Wally Lind:

Pile ot on, we can take it. We always have. Isn’t that what women are really for, to keep our heads from getting too big. They seem to have no problem finding criticisms of us, no matter what we do. Get used to it, men are men, not women!

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:09 am 22. Ian Thorpe:

Who was it referred to “America’s love affair with the Bitch Goddess success”? I know the phrase The Bitch Goddess success came from D.H. Lawrence in Lady Chatterley’s Lover but would be interested to know who added the love affair bit.

I’ll bet it was a psychiatrist. Men in the English speaking nations are falsely accused of being addicted to material success. In fact a lot of pressure was put on us by the status conscious system we lived in. A man is judged by what he owns, not as formerly by his wisdom, the skill in his hands, his contribution to the community and those things which prove true worth.

Back off Dr. Helen, not every problem in the world is the fault of middle class white men. After all it was not just men who wanted to live in desirable suburbs, drive new cars and dress the kids in designer clothes. If you know what I mean…

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:20 am 23. RightwingHippyChick:

But… maybe they are addicted, because many people earn way more than they actually need and that is a colossal waste of life time and talent.

Most people would be much happier owning less and just working part-time(if there is no welfare), and paying a lot less taxes because of it is also a good thing because you are no longer financing the politicans and their assorted frauds.

Much money is earnt just to pay to keep the job (clothes, transport etc), and a lot of the money that is left over is wasted on overpriced junk that people need to pose with in order to retain their expensive (and often imagined) social position with.

If you start to think about stuff in terms of how many hours you wasted earning the money sorting out someone else’s boring stuff, it’s hardly worth it — do you really want to sit 6 month in an office just so you can drive a fancy car? Is being at home with your family or friends and doing things you enjoy not much better instead? Let’s face it, most people hate work and know that it’s a waste of time, but they do it because they think they have to. They don’t!

Most of the best things don’t cost money to enjoy if you have a good education and if you can plan your household and expenditure properly, you will always do better than the folks that normally claim it, because welfare has an inbuilt redundancy to compensate for the incapability of the uneducated to manage money.

I keep telling my hubby to quit work and claim dole instead so he can spend more time at home and enjoy life (I live in the UK) — since I rarely spend more on the house than the dole would give us(most weeks it’s less), but eh, he loves his job (classic success addict, I’m afraid) and so I’m out of luck here

Btw… with most women being staunch feminists nowadays, surely they won’t mind their turn at ’success addiction’ and to generously pay the dole so the men to take a well-earned break from the hamster wheel of work?

Question is, what do we do with all those success addicted feminists who eventually get the sack themselves and then have to go cold turkey?

;-P

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:25 am 24. Kev:

Loosing a job and not being able to buy fun stuff like sports cars, firearms, motorcycles, and vacations IS upsetting. Especially when a wife makes having these things ever more expensive.

By virtue of this article, if a woman’s job is a homemaker, should she get upset when she gets the boot because she was replaced by a 21 year old woman?

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:32 am 25. BladeDoc:

Ian and F.I.N.C. — Did you even read the post? Dr Helen is on the male side in this (and routinely on her blog). Read the post, come back and apologize or STFU.

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:33 am 26. Henway:

#18 and #22: Read the article more closely. You’re attacking Dr. Helen for the notions she’s rejecting, after reprinting them so we all know what we’re discussing. The creeping cultural biases against men, which I acknowledge, might make anyone feel reactive, but I’m not sure you read her right.

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:35 am 27. DADvocate:

I would, but thanks to losing my job I CAN’T F–KING AFFORD TO.

Some agencies provide quite afordable counseling using a sliding scale fee based on income. After my divorce, I went to Catholic Social Services for $10 a session. The guy was great. Child & Family Services and many community mental health centers also have the same set up.

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:41 am 28. Fred:

I agree with the points made by #18 except for the final point about Dr. Helen “accussing men of being addicted to success.” She didn’t – in fact its the opposite. You should actually read her column.

Regarding the whole issue, it’s just another of the endless examples of “gender correct” thinking that men are exposed to. Now that I’m old, I can say with some confidence that the primary differences between the genders is this:

Men are valued only for what they do, not who they are, and are totally accountable for their actions (in fact, it’s their fault that they are now depressed because they lost a job). Society, and women in particular, have no use for a useless man and does almost nothing to help or support them.

Women are valued for who they are and are never responsible for their actions. They don’t have to do anything and can still expect/demand to be respected and taken care of. Society does its best to preserve and help useless women (although for many women, it’s never enough help).

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:48 am 29. Marc Malone:

“Addicted to Success” is just so much nonsense! What a man does for a living is a very big part of his identity. It always has been. When we were hunters and warriors, we flaunted our skill. It declared us fit to breed. We do the same thing today for the same reasons.

The important thing to know is that it is perfectly valid. This is the problem. We are told by women and effete men that our needs and viewpoints are not valid, but these are the things that make us strong, and also the attitudes that make us willing to fight for our loved ones and our communities. There are less good men around, because it is not PC to be a good man.

Men are not addicted to success. Most men don’t need big houses, except as a lure for women. (Here, Kitty, Kitty!) Most guys would be just as happy in a shack on the beach… no, happier in most cases. Still, people need purpose. Men’s purpose revolves around their wife and kids. That they do it should be appreciated. How they do it should not be criticized, nor explained or examined from a woman’s inapplicable viewpoint.

In my experience, most women lack the wisdom necessary to make a proper judgment on men’s behavior. Women are selfish by nature. They have to be, as their concern is for the care of their children. Men are Givers. Women are Takers. And this is as it should be. But this selfish outlook leads them to make incorrect judgments of what makes a proper man. They want the good stuff that a man offers, but then want him to be more like them. The two desires are really incompatible. Let men be men.

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:50 am 30. Trey:

I can’t recall where I heard it, but someone was complaining about losing his job and the other person said “You lost A job, not YOUR job. It is just a job. Now go and get another job, but remember it is not yours, it is merely something you do.”

On the one hand, I can see the point. By not getting too attached to our current means of supporting ourselves and our families, we might freak out less when it is over. At the same time, I run my business myself. If it is not my job, then whose is it and why don’t they show up to help?????

Trey

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:59 am 31. Delia:

Yeah… The fear of losing EVERYTHING you worked your @ss off for is the “Fear of Success”… *eye-roll*

Fearing for your own SURVIVAL is more like it!

These liberal psycho-babble-analysts are a joke. A man killed his own family and then himself not too long ago: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27053712/

That wasn’t ‘vanity’…that was DESPERATION.

An extreme example but it had to be said.

Interesting article by the way [even if it did annoy the hell out of me].

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:12 am 32. Whosonfirst:

Having been a reader of Helen Smith for some time, I don’t think she’s just a garden variety male-basher. And I don’t think it’s fair to paint her with that brush.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:19 am 33. mariecurie:

Just wanted to say that as a career woman (married but childless), I am addicted to success and proud of it. Yes, I find a sense of identity, self-worth, fulfillment, and achievement through my work and accomplishments. Isn’t that what this country is all about? If one works really hard, s/he can achieve professional (and sometimes economic) success? I know this article is about men, but I wanted to affirm that we women can feel the same way. I would hate this country to turn into France or Germany, where there is less incentive to “pull one’s self up by the bootstrap” (and I know–I’ve lived over there).

I also wanted to express my sympathy to those men whose wives/girlfriends see them as just a paycheck. When I was a kid and my father went through several periods of unemployment, my mother berated him as a no-good loser who couldn’t provide (he now owns a successful business and has for 25 years). I found this to be cruel and unconscionable. I couldn’t understand why my mother didn’t get her butt off of the couch and go find some kind of employment and contribute–retail, waitressing, anything . . . but I digress.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:28 am 34. Delia:

32. Whosonfirst:

I think Helen was anything BUT male-bashing. She obviously was standing up for men and I think she did a very good job of it.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:37 am 35. Bob's Kid:

My dear ol’ Mum had the best advice in the world for times like this: it’s okay to feel like crap. Don’t feel like you shouldn’t be feeling like crap, because you should.

This doesn’t absolve you from carrying on with life, however, which includes a new job search.

So, my sympathies to those who lose their jobs, men or women. Go ahead and feel crappy. Then get to work.

Best of luck to you, as well. It ain’t easy.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:47 am 36. susannac:

I was fired from a job once during a shake-up, and it was very stressful. But through networking I got a full-time temporary job in the same field within a month, as a vacation fill-in for employees at four different job sites. At the end of three months, I was offered my choice of jobs at three of the sites I had worked at. I lived in a hotel those three months, and worked my butt off. I’ve also worked as a secretarial temp, a “merry maid” type house cleaner, and other similar jobs during various transitions in my career life. You can never be too good to work for pay at whatever job presents itself. I’ve found that future employers are more responsive to people who have worked low-skilled jobs during career downturns while looking for a better job, than to people who’ve allowed their finances to go to rack and ruin rather than work “beneath” them. It shows the employer who will do whatever tasks are necessary to make things work – a good employee trait.

I had a master’s degree, was working on a PhD and had a good work history, when I was working as a secretary and a house cleaner. And I was good at both jobs and remember them with pride, even though I wouldn’t want to do them again.

My advice is to do whatever work presents itself, make sure you have adequate time and opportunity to look for another good job, and allow yourself to grieve for the really nasty situation you’re in. You’re entitled, and it’s not wimpy or unmanly. It’s human. Open up and let the people in your life care for you. And if you need to talk to a professional – many of whom are trained to help people through precisely this kind of problem – most larger towns and many rural areas have mental health agencies that offer services on a sliding scale. They do at the agency I work for, and the therapists are good – not pushing an agenda.

Good luck, guys. I can speak for myself and the majority of the women I know: We love and admire men, are blessed to have you in our lives, and trust that you will come around because of your talent and dedication. Ignore the naysayers.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:49 am 37. Frank:

I think these are 2 issues that can co-exist or not. Addicted to anything is dangerous. And if money is all you live for or if your job is all you live for, then losing those, should give anyone an opportunity to reevaluate the gift of life. Taking stock in what you have is important.

And what about losing a job is really the most painful? The loss of income or loss of identity? Will someone from your work give your eulogy?

To throw the word success in an article with “money” is a whole other discussion. I don’t see a rich person and immediately think “success.”

I saw a guy this morning distributing food to homeless people as he’s done every day for the past 10 years and I see “success.”

But being laid off is like having your balls cut off. The pain is that you don’t really have control of your own life, your own livelihood. Like having a parent leave. I think for men that is the most damaging aspect. How many people would settle for less money if they could control their own lives.

Give something back, just when it seems impractical and the rewards will follow. Every time I’ve helped a stranger for no reason it has always come back to provide some type of reward, even professionally. Ultimately, you do get what you give, and it’s not about grinding hours at work.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:55 am 38. ked5:

@2. Robert:

The addiction isn’t to success. It’s to feeding their kids, housing their families, doing the necessary. Clowns who claim that this is addiction to success clearly have absolutely no clue of what they are talking about. These Bozos need to lose THEIR jobs for being so far out of touch with the realities with what men and their families face. Shame on them!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I AGREE! we’ve done the “unemploymen” thing. Now hubby has his own business, so he wouldn’t lose his job because the company owner screwed up. (of course, we are nervous about what the fed’s will do to the economy and how it will affect his clients – and their clients)

It is about providing for their families, and anyone who thinks otherwise has drunk too much kool-aide.

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:00 am 39. mariecurie:

Marc Malone:

Wow! You don’t have very kind things to say about women. Perhaps the problem IS that “mens’ purpose revolves around their wives and kids,” and that “women are takers.” Perhaps both men and women would be happier if they found things to give them a sense of self and achievement outside of and in addition to their spouse and children.

A lot of women spend a lot of time trying to “snag” a man (preferably a rich one), aka Bridget Jones. This is what they are programmed to do by friends, mothers, our culture. Men, in response, feel like they have to live up to the expectation. To me, this doesn’t seem to be a productive way to organize one’s life and relationships.

Our society puts so much emphasis on “family values” and we live in a “kids rule” culture. This is all fine and good, but it means that adults often don’t maintain any alterity–a sense of self and development (intellectually, spiritually, professionally) separate from the family unit.

I kind of like the model of two friends of mine. They are both doctors and have two kids. They both work part-time at the same clinic. When one is at work, the other looks after the kids. An arrangement like this gives both satisfaction and it takes the pressure off of one gender to “perform” financially or otherwise for the other.

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:04 am 40. BD57:

Bob’s Kid:

I’d add one thing to your mom’s “OK to feel like crap” analysis ….

“It’s OK to feel like crap about this – that’s a good thing, it shows you care. Just don’t start believing YOU are crap.”

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:19 am 41. Bob Smith:

This is the same organization who claims boys mature/learn/grow up/understand things slower than girls.

The same people who argue this also generally argue that, when it comes to sexual situations, girls are suddenly less mature than boys.

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:33 am 42. D:

The advice is simple as a kick in the butt from your dad…

“Get UP! Start walking.” There is nothing else needed. Ruminations on whatever unfairness, or bad luck or whatnot can be done while you are walking, but you WILL walk, and you WILL NOT give up. This is what men do. I have done it many times, and your sons will too.

Feb 13, 2009 - 12:17 pm 43. Nick:

Any person who has lost their job who owes child support is in danger of being arrested as a felon!

They need to immediately petition the courts for a reduction in their child support order. This is because reductions can only be granted retroactively to the date of the petition!

However, they should also delay the court appearance. The court hearing should be about six months after the job loss.

Feb 13, 2009 - 12:23 pm 44. Andrew:

I think this is a very interesting article. I can also attest, as a recruiter for financial services, that men who lose their jobs are more concerned about earning a paycheck to provide than they are to “success”. I would submit to the pschos, i mean, psycologists, who say its an addiction are liberal/socialists who believe the selfish feeling of success and competition is a bad thing and that being a part of the group and singing songs together so as not to exclude anyone is better. Its academics like that, who are ruining this country.

Feb 13, 2009 - 12:34 pm 45. Mary Jackson:

Anyone who loses their job deserves sympathy, support and encouragement, rather than a dismissive accusation that they are addicted to success. Some men are, of course, as are some women, but most of us are just trying to get one with things.

One quibble – the word “feminist” can mean everything and nothing. On PJM it seems always to be used disparagingly. Yet women who work and earn their own living, rather than expecting a man to provide for them, are more likely to see a man as a human being rather than a meal ticket.

Talking of meals, and another quibble: “just desserts”? Perhaps Dr Helen was hungry when she wrote this:-) See here.

Feb 13, 2009 - 1:25 pm 46. Mary Jackson:

Ha! “get on with things” not “get one with things”. “Get one with things” is hippy dippy.

Feb 13, 2009 - 1:27 pm 47. Rignerd:

Who isn’t addicted to success? Insane people that’s who. If you fail and you don’t feel bad then you keep failing. If you succeed (win) then you keep doing it, not from a destructive addiction, but from a drive to survive and prosper. When I lost my job I felt like a failure and I examined all aspects of my life and career. I went out to find a job that would be successful, and not make the mistakes that I had in the past. Now I am more successful than before and I hope to be even more successful in the future.

Feb 13, 2009 - 4:57 pm 48. frank:

We are here to work. “Be fruitful and multiply” means be productive and then multiply. Period. Multiply without work? Check out the Midast. All of you wih your food clothing and shelter, from a lot of work. Life without work is a form of madness. Call it “Depression”. Oh, it can be debuchery,or
roaming…for a while. Life IS work folks. The poloroid moments and television can’t exists without it’s counterforce.

Feb 13, 2009 - 6:33 pm 49. Marie Claude:

Epictetus’ Manual

Of existing things some are in our power,
others not in our power.
In our power are conception, effort, desire, aversion
and in a word whatever are our actions;
but not in our power are the body, property, reputation,
rulers and in a word whatever are not our actions.

Also things in our power are by nature
free, unhindered, unimpeded,
but things not in our power are
weak, slavish, hindered, belonging to others.

So remember, that if
what is by nature slavish you think free
and what is others’ your own,
you will be hindered, you will mourn, you will be disturbed,
and you will blame both gods and humans,
but if you think only yours is yours,
and another’s, just as it is, another’s,
no one will ever compel you, no one will hinder you,
you will not blame anyone, nor accuse someone,
not one thing will you do unwilling,
no one will harm you, you will have no enemy,
for you will suffer no harm from anyone.

So aiming at such great things, remember that
it is not necessary moderately moving to take hold of them,
but to give up some things completely,
and carry over others for the present.

Even if you intend these things
and to rule and be wealthy,
perhaps you may not bring about these latter
because of also aiming at the former,
and you may fail to get these,
by which alone freedom and happiness are gained.

So at once practice saying to every disturbing impression,
“You are an impression and not the complete manifestation.”
Then examine it and test it by these rules which you have,
first and foremost of which is this:
whether it concerns things in our power or not in our power;
and if it does not concern something in our power,
let the reason for that be handy, “It is nothing to me.”

http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/heights/4617/stoic/epictetus2.html

I have read Epictetus while crosing the same adventure, though, in reality, it was my hubby’s !!!

As he was 55 years old, he couldn’t expect to find quickly an equivalent situation, the Cies don’t hire elders here, cuz they are afraid that they get some sort of heart breaks and alike… and the main raison is that they don’t want to pay high salaries when they can have plenty of youngs for much lower wages.

Anyway, I pushed him to sell our house, to buy us a small business, of which I am the manager, while he could still get his unemployment rente paid ; though we weren’t in a hurry, cuz the unemployeds get insurance rentes here, and as he was more than 55 he wasn’t pushed ahead to find whatever job, knowing that they are rare for the alike ages.

Now, he is a lucky retiree, but I still have got to work !!!!!

also the book “A man in full”, from Tom Wolfe, is quite approaching the purpose of this topic :

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0374270325/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:24 pm 50. Jim C.:

I’m addicted to success. Because the bank is addicted to my mortgage payments.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:43 pm 51. Toads:

I think more American men will voluntarily convert to Islam before long.

I used to think radical Islam was the worst, most damaging ideology in the world. Now, I think it is merely the second worst. Radical Islam has killed how many Americans so far? 7000? Meanwhile, feminism has ruined how many American men and minor children? 10 million? 20 million? 30 million?

Islam is the only force that can fight feminism. In the upcoming battle between the two, I root for Islam.

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:44 pm 52. Toads:

Why are so many idiot commenters blaming Helen Smith for feminism. READ THE ARTICLE, she is actually defending men from a feminist harpy. Helen Smith is a one-in-a-million woman who is actually standing up for men who are treated badly by women.

Feb 14, 2009 - 12:38 am 53. Marc Malone:

#39 mariecurie – I admire your background, but you prove my point. Women pass judgments on men’s needs, deeming them invalid.

Men can aspire to fame and fortune, because it makes them more fit to breed. Really, though, men need to be needed. It gives them purpose. However, if he comes home at the end of the day, and he’s living up to the basic standards of society, then he’s a success. If his wife greets him with that special glint of appreciation in her eye, and his kids are happy to see him, then all is right in his world. All the effort becomes worth it.

It is this outlook that makes men willing to sacrifice mightily for his family and his community. Without this trait, where would the women and the children be? Do NOT try to tell men that they should be doing otherwise. We need what we need. It is a biological imperative, same as women needing love.

I don’t think poorly of women when I call them takers. As I said before, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. All a man wants in return is some respect and appreciation, and he’s more than happy to give. And that’s the way THAT is supposed to be.

So… why don’t you have kids? You seem to be passing judgment on a situation about which you have no direct knowledge. That’s some kind of hubris. Have a kid, and your outlook will change dramatically. Until then, you should just keep silent on the issue, because you are not qualified to talk about it. Sorry, but it’s true.

Feb 14, 2009 - 2:54 am 54. mac:

If Dr. Helen stops being on the side of men, that will be a REAL change, one for the worse, and we’ll have lost one of the few voices that actually speaks for men getting a fair deal from society.

I can’t see from this article that she’s changed her male advocacy role one iota. I won’t presume to speak for anyone else but this man sees you addressing issues our PC society does its absolute best to completely ignore.

Feb 14, 2009 - 6:34 am 55. YourNameHere:

I think that most men are just trying to get along in life. A job loss can be catastrophic. If he’s also working for a demanding sit-at-home wife, I’ve got double sympathy for the man and nothing but hatred for the sit-at-home pig.

On the other hand, there are a minority of people – men and women – who bully. Men can bully with their physical size or social status or they can bully with their great job.

Women can bully with their social status, their great job, or the rich guy they bagged.

No sympathy to them. Welcome to the world of little people.

Feb 14, 2009 - 6:43 am 56. YourNameHere:

Marc Malone:

Well, there’s a thin line between what you are describing, and just being used by a woman. She can see your “need” and your motivation to work for her a mile away.

There is a notion that is almost heretical to some people that women are just human beings, not goddesses. From that point of view, I want companionship with a woman, true mutual sex (i.e. not a prostitute for money) etc. Putting her up on a pedestal and having her be the measure of your worth as a man and as a human being is silly. It’s not just silly, it’s nuts, and it shows how gullible people are and how easily they are manipulated by society.

Feb 14, 2009 - 6:48 am 57. Helen Smith:

I am a bit confused by those who are calling me a male basher etc. As several commenters pointed out, READ the article. I am making fun of the writer of the WSJ article and the psychologists who say men are addicted to success.

I am not the one saying it. I think it’s ridiculous. The double standard of telling men to make money and then calling them “addicts” is absurd. It seems no matter what men do, they are blamed as somehow being wrong.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:29 am 58. jeff:

The important thing for men to understand is that for a woman, a husband is basically an EMPLOYEE. Some women are enlightened employers–they provide employee benefits (frequent sex), profit sharing (letting the man have some choice in how the family money is spent), and advanced management practices (listening to his problems and feelings and at least pretending to care about them). Others are regular Simon Legrees. Most fall somewhere in between.

But always remember, the purpose of an employee is to satisfy his EMPLOYER’s needs–not his own. If the day comes when you are no longer able to fill her requirements for social status and the acquisition of possessions–very important sources of meaning in a woman’s life–then she will have no further use for you. If she is an enlightened employer, she will lay you off with minimal psychological damage**if not, then she will shred you to pieces psychologically.

So if you’re thinking about marrying someone, ask yourself how you’d like to have her for your boss. Because in a very real sense, she will be. If you can observe her in a work setting, see how she treats people with less power and status than her own//because that will be your situation in the marriage. If you can’t observe her at work, observe how she treats waiters, etc. Don’t think you can totally extrapolate from the courtship, when she is in “recruiting” mode, to what she will be like once you sign the employment contract.

Feb 14, 2009 - 8:41 am 59. Marie Claude:

Jeff, LMAO

uh, we say here “if you want to know how the bride will be (or act), you’d better watch her mother first”

Feb 14, 2009 - 9:41 am 60. Thomas Hazlewood:

(sarcasm ON)

It is well that farmers can lose their farms for they are ‘addicted’ to their crops, as are those in the fishing industry ‘addicted’ to their catch.

That such drivel was printed in the WSJ shows that there is yet but a small divide between it and ‘The Onion’.

Feb 14, 2009 - 10:11 am 61. Donna V.:

Rightwinghippychick, you made some sensible points, but you lost me right here:

I keep telling my hubby to quit work and claim dole instead so he can spend more time at home and enjoy life (I live in the UK) — since I rarely spend more on the house than the dole would give us(most weeks it’s less), but eh, he loves his job (classic success addict, I’m afraid) and so I’m out of luck here

And who pays for that dole? That dole money doesn’t drop down from the heavens. You want your fellow citizens to support your family so you can “enjoy life” more, even though your husband loves his job? In what universe can someone with such an attitude call themselves “right wing?”

I agree that many people work overlong hours at jobs they hate in order to buy a bunch of stuff that isn’t necessary. But that is a choice people have in a free society. If you decide that spending more time with family and friends is more important to you than owning luxuries, well, great. Not everyone is cut out to be an overachiever. If “enjoying life” means working less, then by all means, get a less demanding job and make due with smaller paychecks. But going on welfare and leeching off of the hard work of others would make your husband and your family selfish parasites. Nothing wise or enlightened about that.

Feb 14, 2009 - 12:31 pm 62. Also, rightwinghippychick ...:

Men know that if they lose their job skills and are a long-term unemployed person, hardly any woman would give them the time of day.

They are a “non-person” as far as women go. He may realize that if he ever has to get back on the dating market, he may as well not be an unemployed loser leeching off the taxpayers.

Feb 14, 2009 - 1:04 pm 63. Jennifer:

RightWingHippyChick…lots of women would like a guy who loves his job, because he’s likely to be more interesting as well as more successful than some drone. So watch out, or just go ahead & trade him for someone who is happy sitting around on the dole & free him up for the rest of us.

Is he hot? Can you post pictures?

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:08 pm 64. Marc Malone:

#56 YourNameHere – You’re right. There is a small difference. Napoleon once said, “The difference between a battle won and a battle lost is a small thing, but there stand empires.” Same with marriage.

My ex and I fought all the time over our 17 years together, because I refused to let her be my boss. She bought into all the PC bull about what a man is supposed to do for her, and not the other way around.

Being a husband and a father is very fulfilling, but only within certain parameters. A husband is not an employee, nor is a wife. They are each supposed to provide things for each other. In a way, it’s a good business relationship… with benefits. You seem to be on the right track with your desire for mutuality. However, this can only come when the woman hasn’t been indoctrinated to believe that a man’s point of view is invalid… and vice-versa.

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:13 pm 65. Marc Malone:

#51 Toads – Your post was extremely ugly. You have an obvious hatred towards women. You’ll fit right in with the Islamists. They, too, hate women. Just don’t expect most American men to join you. We love women. We may dislike the PC crap they’re fed, but we don’t hate them. Hate the sin, but love the sinner. Lots of wisdom in that Bible thingy.

I won’t get into just how many hundreds of millions of people Islam has killed and enslaved.

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:20 pm 66. Marc Malone:

#49 Marie Claude – Incroyable! You sound like you live on another planet. Subsidized rent for unemployment? No rush to get back to work? Bizarro world.

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:28 pm 67. Marie Claude:

Marc, I think Toads was making derision, umm a guess he got a “bad” divorce !!!

well as far unemployment rent, it’s not susidized, it ’s an insurance that is paid by, both, the enterprise and the employee, the boss’ part is bigger thanthee employee’s, that is deducted each month on your salary bulletin.

While my hubby never encountered unemployment in his whole labor life, he could benefit of this favor, also because he had already worked longer than the requierred legal time for pretending a retirement, that he could have got at 56, if he hadn’t been a canadian emigrant for 3 years, the real time there wasn’t counted but half of it ; and also because his level of qualification was high in his domain, the agencies were not able to provide him some useful links, so they let him warn out his rights, 2 years, in the meanwhile he was a part-time worker in my enterprise, so he could justify of an occupation, that prevented him from doing further researches until retirement (which was at 60 years old for the pre 1950 born babies and now at 61, soon at 63…), besides he had a few appointment from “heads searchers” that went under the bus afterwords because of his age, so he had no “hope” to find an equivalent job, and if it was for “driving a wheel barrow”, then it was preferable that he did it for me !!!

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:01 pm 68. Marie Claude:

@ Toads

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X6RAnRy_4FQ/R-4_dd7OVpI/AAAAAAAACPw/kV55h5Gp3_Y/s1600-h/a+frantico+3.jpg

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:34 pm 69. Delia:

Toads, you are whack. You don’t need to convert to Islam to be a male chavanist pig and you may wanna rethink that when the nukes come.

You are whack, buddy.

Take it down a notch. I love men and women equally…

CHILL.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:39 pm 70. Delia:

Helen, just never mind the comprehension skill impaired.

What you wrote was honest and heart-felt and my husband and I really appreciated it.

The article with which you had much chagrin over gave me the same ugly vibe and you worded your feelings succinctly and with compassion.

THANK YOU.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:45 pm 71. Addicted to a Roof Over My Head:

Yes, I am female but I am an addict too. I am addicted to a roof over my head, paying my heat, electric and water bills. Addicted to eating, paying for my Internet service and my car insurance.

I’m just wondering if these same psychologists would describe the lazy as addicted to sloth? Perhaps. I think they are just trying to drum up business.

While there are some workaholics out there, it is pretty ridiculous to call people addicted to success. UNLESS…you intend to open a rehab where you can charge the successful and wealthy $50K a month to become “clean and sober”. What a scam…

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:00 pm 72. long-time rebel:

@71 wrote: I’m just wondering if these same psychologists would describe the lazy as addicted to sloth? Perhaps. I think they are just trying to drum up business.

~~~~~~~~~~~

No, the lazy aren’t additicted to sloth, their poor little ego’s have been bruised and damaged by their father’s addiction to success. Therefore the lazy aren’t responsible for expecting everyone else to clean up after them and pay for the roof over their heads so they can sit around watching whatever tripe hollywood has dished out on any given day.

Feb 16, 2009 - 12:05 pm 73. eneralme:

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Apr 22, 2009 - 2:34 pm

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