Pajamas Media

461 Comments

Mary Jackson:

Is rape okay just because the victim is male?

No, of course it isn’t. Men rape other men, and some women are stronger than men and can force them to have sex.

However, the fact is that this guy was strong enough have stopped her, which in real rape she - and it usually is a she - cannot stop him. This is abuse, and appalling behaviour, but it isn’t rape.

To be consistent, Heather Mac Donald and most of those commenting on my thread here, ought to say that he was asking for it by getting so drunk and agreeing to share the motel room.

But I imagine they won’t.

Jun 30, 2008 - 4:07 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

Zero sympathy, Blunderbrain. Get plastered, then get a hotel room with a total stranger, and later you’re ‘raped’.

Stupid people deserve the pain they afflict upon themselves.

Jun 30, 2008 - 4:25 am Helen Smith:

Mary Jackson,

Bull. It is rape. You are leaving out the blackmail angle. If he had tried to stop her, she would have yelled rape and you know good and well that a pregnant woman would have this guy thrown in jail so fast his head would spin and his military career would be over. In this case, the woman had more strength and power than the man in this situation. His choices were limited–she forced him to have sex with her when he did not want to. Yes, this guy was being a good Samaritan to get a room with this woman. He had drunk too much and did not want to drive and this woman needed a place for the night. This does not warrant blackmail and rape. If they had agreed to have sex in the room, went there and then he backed out and she had sex with him without the blackmail, no it would not be rape–it would be as you say, abusive and appalling behavior– but that is not what happened here. If you say that it is not rape than the same standard should be applied to women. If they go to a hotel room with a man and are forced to have sex just as this man was, no rape charges should be filed. Note this is not what I am saying is correct–you are with your analogy. Or perhaps you believe that only men should be charged with rape no matter what?

Jun 30, 2008 - 4:40 am A Dane:

What a b****, abusing the protection of raped women like that. I feel bad for the child that she was going to have. And I fully understand the anger he must have been feeling.

That being said, get over it already. It’s been 17 years and you did nothing at the time. You’re a man an should not react as women do - crying and feeeeling so bad, that’s the women’s domain. You could have pressed charges long time ago, now all you can, and should, do is to get over it.

Jun 30, 2008 - 4:43 am Smarty:

Bullshize.

I doubt the story, and if it were true this guy is the leader of the Metrosexual pack. He forgot to add that she backhanded him a few times while she was scaring him into silence.

Utter crap.

Jun 30, 2008 - 5:50 am fast, silent, deep & deadly:

Men can’t be raped. Metro-sexuals yes but men, no. I had a situation similar to “Mike’s”. I took a 100-mile motorcycle trip to a friend’s wedding. I must have caught a really bad cold on the ride down because early in the reception I started feeling achy and feverish. One of the bridesmaids asked me if I was going out with everyone after the reception. I responded no because I wasn’t feeling too good and shortly left for my hotel room. Twenty minutes later there’s a knock at the door and it’s the bridesmaid asking if I’d changed my mind. I said no to which she made her way into my room, jumped me and had her way with me for about an hour only to get out of bed saying she had to get away from me because I was burning up. I figure my temperature was about 101 or 102 even without the physical exertion. Was I raped? It may have been rude but I wouldn’t call it rape.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:00 am tinman:

Does anyone really believe this. There is zero chance this happened. Only a fool would believe this. The only way a woman can rape a man is if she straps one on and ties him up.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:08 am Trey:

Helen, I think the belief is not so much that only women are rape victims, but that only men are rapists. A scenario like the one described is certainly rape. Gender don’t enter into it.

Trey

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:12 am Roger Pearse:

Leaving aside the weird and disgusting circumstances, this is mildly absurd, to be honest. It’s not really the same thing at all.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:16 am Mary Jackson:

Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force. That is why women raping men is virtually a non-issue - most men, including this one, are stronger than most women.

In any case, even if she had claimed to be raped, it would have been her word against his with no supporting evidence. She had stayed in the room with him, which, in the eyes of Mac Donald etc means she was up for it. A prosecution would have been thrown out before it got to court.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:22 am Helen Smith:

Given the unsympathetic responses here (Trey excepted) it’s no wonder men don’t talk about rape. “Does anyone believe this? This is mildly absurd, Men can’t be raped.” Listen to yourselves. He didn’t fight back hard enough? This is what they used to tell women. I realize that men are not women but they are human and they have feelings. Apparently, no one here thinks they do. Men deserve what they get, even other men believe that. With attitudes like this, no wonder nothing ever changes.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:25 am Doc Holiday:

I was hammered one time and woke up to a woman giving me oral sex. I woke up, looked down and then went right back to sleep! So, it is possible his story is true.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:29 am Mary Jackson:

Definition of rape (Merriam Webster):

“unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”

I don’t think what happened was rape, though it may count as sexual assault.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:31 am Mary Jackson:

He didn’t fight back hard enough? This is what they used to tell women.

Big, big difference - if a woman fights a rapist he can hurt her even more, or even kill her. That is why women often don’t fight back. Except in very rare cases, a man can fight off a woman pretty easily.

Of course “Mike” didn’t deserve what happened. The woman behaved appallingly. But it wasn’t rape.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:33 am Chaya:

A Dane said “You’re a man an should not react as women do - crying and feeeeling so bad, that’s the women’s domain. You could have pressed charges long time ago, now all you can, and should, do is to get over it.”
==================================
THAT is the problem with society - that men are now supposed to let their feelings show! “Be a man! Don’t cry!” a boy’s father says to him. If he feels he was raped, then he was! Rape is not sexual; it’s about power. And that is what she was using against him. She could have masturbated; instead, she chose to play a power trip on that poor guy knowing he wouldn’t do a thing against her.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:39 am apetrelli:

It is striking that rape law, and the standards and biases in its enforcement, were the weapons used by this sociopath to force this man ultimately to submit to this terrorizing event of abuse.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:43 am Jason Van Steenwyk:

I know. There’s a special place reserved in Hell for me. But the whole time I was reading this I kept thinking, “Dear Penthouse.”

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:46 am 360 Annie:

I’m sorry Helen, but this is silly. Men ARE supposed to be different than women. I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings….I hate the whole metrosexual thing, it’s part of what is wrong with the whole landscape…we need men to be men…

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:47 am Jason Van Steenwyk:

I think the guy was clearly raped if she mounted him while he was unconscious. But the operative coercion after that point, seems to have been blackmail, not physical force.

Should we draw a distinction between blackmailing someone into sex and raping them? I would suggest that we should. As my Daddy always taught me, “If you can’t blackmail someone into sex, son, then what CAN you blackmail them into?”

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:55 am Lynn:

“She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk.”

How do you hold an erection for hours? By counting to like a kazillion? Making a mental yearly shopping list?

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:57 am Cannon Asesrb:

Given the unsympathetic responses here (Trey excepted) it’s no wonder men don’t talk about rape. “Does anyone believe this? This is mildly absurd, Men can’t be raped.” Listen to yourselves. He didn’t fight back hard enough? This is what they used to tell women. I realize that men are not women but they are human and they have feelings. Apparently, no one here thinks they do. Men deserve what they get, even other men believe that. With attitudes like this, no wonder nothing ever changes.

Helen, don’t forget … “He asked for it. After all the little gigolo got all liquored up, even!”

“unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”

Mary, so I guess a man who could have been charged with rape himself (and likely convicted) wasn’t forcibly put into that situation. Does force only have to be physical force? Hmmmm you put a gun 6 inches from my head and that is not “physical” force, but it is force. Also during the first time it can certainly be argued that the man was incapable of valid consent. If a man had done the same thing to a woman (took advantage of her while she was drunk) with no other physical force, everyone on here would call it rape.

Jun 30, 2008 - 6:58 am Meta Physic:

So rape only counts when there is physical force or the threat of injury present? Psychological coercion isn’t enough? I guess that means all those male bosses who demand sex as the price of continued employment aren’t guilty of rape at all since no threat of violence is present. And rape victims to be forced to prove not only lack of consent but the threat of violent injury in order to get a conviction? Good luck with that.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:02 am Esher Fern Gamble:

“She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk.”

lol, ok dude, we believe you. This isn’t the Penthouse forum.

Sometimes a mouse can get the better of a cat, sometimes a freshman can pummel a senior, sometimes a 4-cylinder can beat a V-8. And sometimes a man can get raped by a woman. But let’s not let statistical aberrations cloud the obvious - rape is committed by men, on women.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:03 am Marsouin:

It’s rape only if she’s ugly! (A little humor.) Men can’t get raped. What a pathetic story if true.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:03 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“Poor guy”. *sheesh* The guy is a putz. At best he’s a “victim” of his own stupid behavior. The Marine Corps is a better place without him.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:15 am Nothing New:

Although a woman forcing herself on a man under threat of reporting a rape is rare, it does happen–it’s even in the Bible.

In Genesis 39, Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers, but his master Potiphar leaves and puts Joseph in charge of his household. Potiphar’s wife repeatedly asks Joseph to “lie with” her, but Joseph refuses, until she grabs his cloak, and Joseph is forced to run away naked. Potiphar returns, and his wife uses the cloak to accuse Joseph of seducing her, and Potiphar throws Joseph into prison.

The Marine in this story probably feared the accusation of raping a pregnant woman, and his life being ruined, and didn’t have the courage of Joseph in the Bible. But seriously, how many men would in that situation?

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:17 am Thomas Vago:

Um… she forced him to have sex with her, against his will. I do not care much for legal, 50-cent word definitions of rape, but this situation certainly fits what I would call rape.

Dr. Helen is right - reform is needed. I agree that falsely reporting rape, or sexual assault, or sexual harassment; ought to merit the same sort of scrutiny and punishment as valid charges.

Guys, see how much sympathy you get when some woman slaps a false rape charge against you (or even a false sexual harrassment charge). Even if the evidence solidly points to that fact that she lied and that you’re innocent, even if there was no possible way at all that you and her could have been in a situation that even remotely supports her lie, you’re still screwed.

And for those of you knuckleheads who are being callous over this Marine’s plight: If you got caught up in a similar situation as that Marine, you’d get absolutely no sympathy from me, ever.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:18 am E:

To the unsympathetic:

If you think the lifetime legal injury that would have been done to “Mike” if he’d fought back is something to scoff at, you really don’t have much of a clue. I realize it’s hard to get one’s head around the idea of a man being raped or abused by a woman, but if you think for a few minutes before having a juvenile emotional reaction, you’d see how much the law favours women. The woman who assaulted “Mike” is a predator, plain and simple. There are men on sex offender registries for their whole lives labelled as rapists and pedophiles for much less. Injury by physical force is not the only “real” injury. I think I could deal with the threat of temporary physical force more readily than the threat of being forever labelled a rapist.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:18 am dagny:

Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force.

If the man had been two years younger, it would have been considered rape, whatever he said and did, because he would have been 17. Is a 17-year-old stronger than a six-months-pregnant woman? Most likely. BUT he is legally powerless.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:19 am hmmm:

Women can’t be rapists, you know, like blacks can’t be racist.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:21 am Zango:

I know a guy who suffered something similar, in that he woke up in his bed to find one of his housemates on top of him. She didn’t make any threats that I’m aware of, but she used him for sex without his consent: pretty much the definition of rape. I don’t think he made a big deal of it - what was he going to say? Who could he complain to?

To make it even worse, she became pregnant from the encounter and so not only does he support the child, he’s stuck with this horrible woman in his life for the next few decades.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:24 am paul beezley:

wow, the majority of the folks on here are appalling, and their attitudes are repulsive. Blackmail isn’t force? I’d say a black eye is easier to recover from then a ruined career and reputation.

I do agree, this might not raise to “rape” but its clearly a sexual assault. But I believe that it doesn’t really matter, because he feels violated, his perception is this was rape - which means he needs help in overcoming that.

Now, if this woman had just been in the Army and done this to a prisoner in Gitmo, I can guarantee the attitudes among many here would be totally different.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:26 am Michael E. Lopez:

This is nothing new. Joseph, Potiphar’s wife….. any of this sound familiar?

For those of you who say idiotic things like “if a woman fights a rapist he can hurt her even more…”, let us consider the following scenario.

Mary Mae is a young lady of twenty years whose mother and father own a plantation in the South in 1845. Mary Mae decides that she would like to have sex with one of her slaves; let’s call him Thomas. She goes to him and tells him that if he does not grant her sexual favors, she will tell her father that he sexually assaulted her. He knows that she will be believed, and he knows that if she makes the accusation, he will be tortured and killed.

The problem that Thomas faces is that he is in a legal system with imperfect fact-finding. The word of Mary Mae is given undue weight, and he is not given quite enough process.

Does anyone doubt that the coercion of a slave is rape?

Now let’s tweak it slightly, and say that it’s the 1930’s, and the characters involved are Tom Robinson and Mayella Ewell. Let’s say that instead of walking away, Tom Robinson rightly fears that even though he can expect at least some greater measure of justice than Thomas did vis a vis Mary Mae, nonetheless justice is stacked against him and people will try to lynch him if he does not give into Mayella’s request. Let’s say that he sleeps with her out of this fear.

How is this any different than the Thomas-Mary Mae situation? It is only a difference of degree.

Now let us say that instead of a racially discriminatory justice system, we are dealing with a society where certain types of people are *still* nonetheless given more credibility than others. Let us say that we are in a society where people who accuse others of sexual misconduct generally have the upper hand, particularly when they are female. Let us say that we are in a society where pregnant women are generally believed not to be the type of people who have sexually predatory instincts. And let us also say that the victim’s entire economic livelihood depends on his reputation and his conduct record, and that he is in an utterly unforgiving environment where things like parking tickets come up at promotion times. Let us also say that the victim in this case is only 17 years old, and that he can rightly expect people to make fun of his developing sense of masculinity *even if he does come forward and tell the truth* (though I don’t know why in the world we might think that….).

Once again, is there any real difference here? What I see is a perpetrator using the accidental characteristics of society’s machinery to her advantage.

Just in case I’m not making my case quite clear enough, let us go even further back to the Middle Ages, or at least to 1600’s New England — some sort of society where the patriarchy is alive and well. Let us say there is a (cue evil music) SEXUALLY PREDATORY MAN, and let us also posit that for social reasons, the man in question cannot reasonably hurt or kill his female victim. Perhaps she is the mayor’s wife. I don’t know.

Anyway, let us assume that instead of using force, he uses the threat that he will destroy her reputation in society by casting her as an unchaste whore. And let us imagine that in this society, such allegations would be believed without question due to the instinctual misogyny that such a society possesses. To avoid shame and degradation, to avoid losing her children, being cast out of her home, and forced to earn a living on the streets, this lady gives in to the man’s social blackmail.

How is this any different?

Recall that Lucretia’s virtue was not taken by force. It was not fear of death or injury that caused her to give in to Sextus Tarquinius. He tried that road and got nowhere with it. No, at the end of things, what he had to do was threaten to kill her and leave her in bed with a naked slave….. in the end, he leveraged her fear of shame.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:27 am Thomas Vago:

I also find, on the part of some of the other commenters, a disturbing lack of understanding (or knowledge) of reproductive biology. It’s almost as though you’re proud to display your ignorance..

Oh, well… From reading the “enlightened” responses of some of the other commenters here, I guess in our society, which was supposed to guarantee equality of potential for all, with openness and understanding, without prejudice, that:
- only men can rape women
- only men can assault women (sexually or physically or mentally)
- only men can sexually harass women.
Thanks for the clue, folks.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:29 am celebrim:

There is a similar account in Genesis 39 concerning Joseph and Potiphar’s wife.

There are some situations where a man finds himself with no good options. Either he resists, in which case he will likely be charged with rape, or he doesn’t resist in which case he is raped. This fact puts one in a particular bind in as much as that since he could have resisted, he is somewhat complicit in his own rape. That itself is probably the source of a great deal of guilt. The heroic standard men are supposed to live up to is that of Joseph, resisting even though it means imprisonment and the complete loss of his reputation. That’s a tough standard.

The situation Mike was in is partly his own fault, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t rape. Being stupid doesn’t mean you deserve to be abused. His situation is similar to the nothing but bad choices situation that women can find themselves in, where if they don’t resist there is a good chance that they won’t be believed, but if they do resist they’ll just get hurt worse and maybe killed. No good choices.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:33 am PJ:

I’m sorry, Helen. That reads as if it was straight out of penthouse forum, circa 20 years ago.

From a sixty-something male POV, for all I know it may be 100% true. It wouldnt surprise me in the least as I’ve run across several predatory women like the one described, and anyone who doubts this could happen should pay more attention to the news. It aint ALL about 30 something schoolteachers and their male students.

But the guy should have been over it, by now. I was actually raped at threat of knifepoint by some guy I was stupid enough to get into a car with from a DC bar in the early sixties. I got over that, at least as far as I can tell.. and have had nothing but hetero relationships since. I have no overt bigotries against gay men, have brushed off advances with a polite but sharp response, but I do the same with women whom I dont care to encourage.
Some of them, though, flatter me… no matter how ‘assertive’ they are.

If I was that guy, I would have written it off as a life lesson and been done with it. I know women who have done the same. But especially from a male view, it should be far easier.

You have pointed out numerous times that women’s thought processes and emotions are wired differently from men’s.

That is the whole point. I know women who have done the same, without being devastated for life.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:33 am Azores:

Men are being treated as underclass “people” by the law and ridiculed in the media. But real men should not complaint as victims. Like Roman plebeians they should step aside. Mister bin Laden will solve all present problems created by women seeking power and power only.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:37 am ndh:

Helen, you sure have managed to attract a bunch of losers to this post. I suspect that are the same folks who scream bloody murder when a male high school coach diddles with one of his students, but if the female math teacher beds a boy, it’s something to snicker at. Thank goodness for the few sane minds here.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:37 am SwissArmyD:

I am sure if, Dr. Helen< you had removed genders from the story, people would line up solidly behind the victim. The comments prove the point though. Most people only see rape as penetration, and the perp is the one doing that. It’s a crock, but there it is. The comments about how this wouldn’t happen to a real man are also a crock. Hate to tell you this guys, but ANY woman can scream rape, and you will be face down in handcuffs fast enough to make your head spin. The police may determine later that she was lying, but that won’t take away the night or nights in jail proving your innocence, IF you can. People who think that is impossible, have never been close to it… I’ve been the guy to bail out a friend with the psycho ex-girlfriend who was blackmailing, and screamed it.

The DA dropped it when we could conclusively prove he was elsewhere.

Just because women can use soft-power to do this, doesn’t mean it is different*. The guy has figured out, no doubt, how hard it is to get any services for this. Hopefully he has friends to back him up over the long haul.

*yes, it’s a different scenario to take advantage of a man, but, it is also a different kind of wound. In effect you take away his manhood for some amount of time, because all his strength and power can be co-opted. He has no answer for that. Unlike a woman who will get sympathy from almost everyone, a man gets derision from many of his peers, and most women won’t believe him if he says anything about it.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:37 am Lea:

I think the guy was clearly raped if she mounted him while he was unconscious. But the operative coercion after that point, seems to have been blackmail, not physical force.

This is where I’m at. I think the first one was clearly rape, as he was physical unable to fight back. The second one was a little odd. I’m not sure what to call it. It sounds like a sexual harrassment type situation, which I personally wouldn’t consider rape. If you agree to sleep with your boss because you are worried about losing your job, is that rape? I don’t think so. It’s not cool, but I don’t think that’s rape.

I will say there may be more of this type of situation then you would think. I know a guy who had a child by this woman and he claims that she got him drunk and had sex with him to have a child by him. We always thought it was odd/suspect, but maybe it’s not. Food for thought, at any rate.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:38 am Joe:

I believe Mike’s story, but the answer to it is really, get over it. And I do not mean that in a condesending way, but more of a why are you torturing yourself over this? Yes it was rape, but it is just as much as being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong woman.

And of course, lots and lots of alcohol.

There is a lesson in all of this Mike, avoid these circumstances in the future. Now would I say this to a young girl in high school or a boy who was raped, no of course not. But I am going to say it to you. You were a Marine and an adult. You got yourself in a bad situation. You survived. I am sorry Mike, but your experience is not quite as traumatic as what many women have to face or man on man rape. I am sorry, but I am not weeping about your “Prince of Tides” experience. Deal with it, let that scab heal and don’t let it happen again.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:38 am ndh:

Well that’s a relief, Joe. Let’s just say the same thing to all those women who made a couple of mistakes and ended up with a male predator on top of them. Really! Get over it!

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:42 am Bod:

Wow. Just … wow.

Setting aside whether Mike’s claim is true, some great points have been made here, concerning what constitutes rape.

* It’s forcing sex upon another person with the threat of physical force upon the victim
or
* It’s forcing sex upon another person with the theat of some action which will cause harm to the victim

So, ladies and gentlemen, what’s it to be? if it’s the first, then there have been a hell of a lot of bogus rape charges made upon men in the past. As someone commented above, every sleazy boss who demanded a quickie so that a secretary could avoid being fired, get that raise they asked for, have that expense claim signed off - every damn one of those prosecutions? Bogus. Because, like, hey, it’s not like he was going to behave like Ronnie Specter and blow her brains out with a ‘45, was it?

Whether you believe Mike’s story or not, men can be raped. By women. It’s all about coercive force, and for a kid who has a bright future in the Marines that can be destroyed, along with his life as a civilian, you bet your bippy he’s been coerced.

In fact, some women believe that it’s possible for a woman to rape a man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_McKinney

BTW, I for one wouldn’t call Mike a metrosexual if his story’s true. For a 19 year old he showed a precocious understanding of western culture.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:42 am ern:

This was definitely rape, and the unsympathetic responses here are puzzling. The definition Mary offers says “usually” carried out forcibly or under threat of injury. In this case, the man’s ability to use force to protect himself was thwarted by her pregnancy. He might as well have been physically restrained. His use of force would have threatened an innocent life. The definition does not rely on force, as Mary seems to imply (she obviously isn’t reading the definition carefully enough). Just because this situation was unusual does not mean it wasn’t rape.

This is one of those rare cases in which the man could not reasonably have fought off the woman. She used her pregnancy as a restraint against the man. She might as well have been holding a gun to another innocent person’s head. I can’t imagine how anyone could reasonably come to any other conclusion.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:44 am bluhawkk:

Legal definition:

“The crime of rape (or “first-degree sexual assault” in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim’s inability to say “no” to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called “date rape”), or even when the offender is the victim’s spouse.”

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/rape.html

Note the words: “or other duress”.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:45 am Matt S.:

If this isn’t rape then we have a huge double standard. The threat of force and an unwilling partner would be all that is needed to qualify in my opinion. Of course he could have physically stopped her when he woke up, but she threatened economic punishment(his job), not to mention his own conviction no one would believe him or fear of hurting the unborn child. Big marine raped by 6 month pregnant women….twice! SUUURE he could have come forward. This would seriously screw with anyones head and she might as well have been holding a gun to his head and it isn’t at all suprising he avoided confronting what happened to him for so long. As far as the comments for him to suck it up, because he is a man? Suppressing anger hardly makes one a man. Dealing with it constructively so he can move on and create and sustain better relationships with loved ones in his own life is harder and does.

Good Luck Mike

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:49 am b:

360 Annie: “I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings…”

Then let us act like men and let’s have women go back to acting like women. Now get your butt in the kitchen.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:53 am MikeT:

Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force. That is why women raping men is virtually a non-issue - most men, including this one, are stronger than most women.

As if all of the pain and suffering he would get at the hands of the legal system and in prison wouldn’t amount to at least a comparable level of threat of “physical force.” I think holding prison rape, among other possibilities, over someone’s head as an outcome of struggling against your actions certainly qualifies as a real threat.

You’re not particularly honest about anything on this topic, Mary, as even most of the men you constantly bitch about on PJM forums do believe that if a man screws a woman while she is entirely passed out, that that is rape. There is a difference, in most people’s minds, between people who have drunken sex, and people who have sex with those who are passed out.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:53 am FlyBoy:

Interesting commentary. I agree with Helen. This gentleman was definately raped. Maybe it would be easier for some to understand that if she held a knife to his throat.

For those of you who think there was no threat of violence/force (Mary Jackson), what do you think the police were going to use in response to her charges? She wasn’t threatening to use her own force against him. She was threatening to use the armed force of the state against him.

And no man is stupid enough to take his chances with the court when he’s being threatened with a rape charge. Innocence doesn’t matter once you’re accused.

I’ll bet this guy never helped a damsel in distress again. I know don’t let myself be alone with women or children I don’t know because of the risk of being falsely accused. Too many examples of men’s lives being ruined.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:56 am MikeT:

Funny thing is, I know this scenario is possible because I knew a guy in high school who lost his virginity this way. Knowing the kind of girls who hung around him, I wouldn’t put it past them either.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:57 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“When I read Mike’s story, I realized the horrible psychological predicament that this rapist put Mike in.”

I find your obsession with defining every person on the planet as a victim, regardless of how irresponsible, reckless and moronioc they are, appalling. This woman didn’t put Mike in a horrible predicament. He took care of that himself.

So he got drunk (smart!), and got a room with a total stranger (smarter!), and then something bad happened (ouch!).

Let me guess: the next day he got stoned and rode his motorcycle without a helmet and something else bad happened. Damn the ‘luck’.

Stop global whining.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:57 am fred:

Some of the comments on this discussion that make fun of “Mike” or make light of what happened to him are APPALLING. Some people have no shame and lack any sense of empathy. This guy’s only “crime” was getting plastered at a bar. I was a 19 year old once, in the Army, and I got hammered a few times as well. And it would have been my fault if I had been driving while drunk and either caused an accident or simply been pulled over and cited. Thank God I never had an experience like his. But, I can imagine the terror of his predicament. Anyone who cannot needs to check inside their cranium and in their chest cavity for a heartbeat. The first comment on the thread that men cannot be raped by women is imbecilic in its scope.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:05 am Helen Smith:

Mary Jackson,

You use the dictionary as your legal referance? Rape laws vary state to state–not with the newest version of Webster’s dictionary.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:19 am Steve in wNY:

I find myself partially in the “what was he thinking” camp while also sympathizing with Mike’s situation.

Micheal E. Lopez made some pretty good analogies, and for me some commenters’ dismissive attitude because “no force was involved” seems way off the mark. No entity has greater access to, or employs it as readily, as the state. And that is precisely the force that was threatened by the pregnant woman.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:19 am Me too:

“unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”

Ignoring the use of Webster’s as a legal reference, how do you say that based on this definition it is not rape? The fella was grossly drunk, thus not capable of valid consent, thus fitting the definition in Webster’s. Right?

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:26 am Sioux Lady:

Okay all you men. I’m not understanding something here. All my 66 years I have believed that the male erection is a very delicate thing - collapsing at the least bit of pyschological distress - and that many men suffer from premature ejaculation resulting in collapse. Right? Then tell me, how can a woman with a “keep IT up” on an unwilling man long enough to get what she wants? Are you saying that “fear” can cause an erection?

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:27 am Stacy:

Some of the comments above are really stupid. It’s not rape because he could have thrown her off with one hand behind his back? Sure, and now he’s guilty of assaulting a pregnant woman. Even a drunk can string that thought together. And blackmail is different from physical force …how? If a man blackmailed a woman into having sex with him, would you say that wasn’t rape? And my personal favorite: “But let’s not let statistical aberrations cloud the obvious - rape is committed by men, on women.” Yep, let’s absolutely not let data get in the way of prejudice. That would be way too scientific.

Ok fine, we will all always do a double-take when hearing a story like the above, and of course the odds are against a woman being able to set things up so she’s able to rape a man, but you cannot hold yourself out as an intelligent human while simply refusing a priori to believe anything that falls outside your preconceptions.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:28 am Trey:

In a few weeks, tens of thousands of college freshmen will be taken to auditoriums and told about how having sex with a drunk woman is rape. She is incapacitated by her voluntary use of alcohol or drugs, and having sex with her while she is to inebriated to consent is rape.

That makes perfect sense to me.

It is the height of absurdity to claim that this only applies to women. It is unjustifiable using even the most strenuous of mental gymnastics.

Trey

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:28 am h0mi:

Poor judgment does not mean that the victim deserved to be victimized. That’s true for a woman whose drink was spiked with GHB or Rohypnol or a woman who shares a hotel room with a friend of a friend and is later raped.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:33 am John:

Would any of those female rapists like to have my address?

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:38 am Tatter:

The problem with extending rape laws to include anything other than the use of force or the threat of force, is that such a change would be far more useful to predatory women like the one mentioned in the letter than it would be to the men they “rape.” Imagine if she could accuse men of rape by saying they threatened to show up at her workplace and make her life hell if she didn’t have sex with them. She’d be a threat to far more than just physically fit Marines; heck, such women would probably start having any guy who so much as looked at her funny arrested.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:43 am leishman:

Situations such as Mike’s receive the degree of impact we allow them to have. People DO recover from many horrible things (cf. Victor Frankl, Glenn Cunningham, John McCain) and lead good and meaningful lives. Our lives are only as ruined as we let them be.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:46 am nynick:

Sioux Lady,

Exactly! Men can’t perform without some interest in performing. May I also point out that this line, “She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk” is a little far fetched. Ladies, does this seem likely?

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:51 am SarahW:

I think he’s lying. The “orgasming” was icing on the cake.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:52 am woody, tokin librul:

Dear Hustler…

Chuy…Do you people know the difference between a war story and a fairy tale?

Fairy-tales start off “Once Upon A Time’; a war-story starts off: “This ain’ no shit. I was there…”

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:53 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“Poor judgment does not mean that the victim deserved to be victimized.”

I don’t think anyone is arguing that point. Just don’t ask me to weep for someone who could have EASILY prevented this incident at 50 different points in the evening in question.

Every choice we make has a consequence. When you make bad choice after bad choice, guess what? Something bad happens.

I’ll save my tears for victims of child rape & molestation.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:56 am Mary Jackson:

Rape laws vary state to state–not with the newest version of Webster’s dictionary.

OK, then, so what was the law in “Mike’s” state? Does “Mike” know?

I’m sure rape laws do vary from state to state (I’m British, and our legal definition probably varies too.) However, most definitions are likely to involve force or threat of injury, rather than pressure or blackmail (including over a job). In that case it becomes sexual assault at the most rather than rape. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t traumatic, or that “Mike” doesn’t deserve sympathy. He does. However, given that men are stronger than women in all but a few cases, rape of men by women is very rare.

I don’t buy the argument that her pregnancy was the equivalent of a loaded gun. He could have got her off without harming the baby.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:56 am Annony:

Sioux lady, you’ve been hanging out with the wrong guys. Nothing delicate about my erections.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:56 am mike devx:

Rape is about forced sex under power. This guy was definitely raped.

However, his difficulty in dealing with it is rather pitiful. It truly *is* hard to imagine a former marine becoming such a twiddling metrosexual. Did she emasculate him that badly?

Then again, not every soldier is made of sterner stuff. Just Google Arthur Batchelor. (”Do you need another hug? A mommy hug?”)
Or go here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=faye-saved-me—&method=full&objectid=18879126&siteid=89520-name_page.html

“”Topsy said she’d always be there for me, to protect me and look after me.”

In last week’s Mirror, Kate described Arthur as her “Tarzan”. But the modest sailor said: “I’m not quite king of the jungle. There are lots more braver people. We had a giggle about it. I suppose she’ll expect me to live up to the nickname now.”

—

We had a GIGGLE about it??? Blech. Goes to show.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:56 am SarahW:

Let me be more blunt. You’ve fallen for a fantasy or confabulation created with the specific intention of having others be subjected to a prurient exagerration of his capacities and vulnerabilities.
His “harpy” rape is a masturbatory fantasy and the literary equvalent of flashing.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:58 am Stuart Schneiderman:

For those who like the classics, the story of Poros (expediency) and Penia (poverty) from Plato’s Symposium says that Penia lay with the drunken, passed-out Poros and, from that act, conceived a child called Eros.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:59 am SarahW:

And I was not trying to be funny.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:59 am JFP:

I’ve heard enough stories about lesbians sexually assaulting other women not to believe those on this thread who say that only men can rape. Of course, their delicate PC sensibilities don’t want to consider such a possibility, but it’s true nonetheless.

Also, Sioux Lady has a point. If I were in this situation and I didn’t find the woman attractive, I would lose my erection pretty quickly. Then what?

And finally, yes, it’s rape. But as the attitude of John (at 8:38) suggests, most of us who are men are less likely to be traumatized by an incident like this than women are.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:00 am Aronamos:

Whta, did Penthouse not publish this, Mike?

I call BS on this.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:02 am surprised:

Wow I am very surprised by the responses of women on this story. Honestly I am pretty sickened by it. People say its been 17 years already and should get over it. Yet if it were a woman, everyone here would be far more sympathetic.

What if the man was religious and saving himself for marriage, would you still be saying “Its been 17 years, get over it”? I am also disgusted by the fact that women here are somehow trying to justify the situation by saying it was a man, and forceful sex on a man from a woman is NOT rape. Do women “own” rape? Is this something that only YOU are entitled to? Sounds weird doesn’t it, but that’s how you are acting.

However I am sure it would make a difference if he were a young child or a teenager wouldn’t it? When a man says “No”, it means “No” just as much as No means No when it comes from a woman.

I am seriously disgusted by a lot of your responses here.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:06 am susannac:

The non-legal standard I’ve heard most often applied to the question, “was it rape?” was “did you want it? if not, it was rape”. There are of course varying legal standards, but the psychology is about consent vs. coercion, and thus ultimately about power. I think Mike’s situation was clearly rape, and the woman knew it when she did it. Like most male rapists, she probably was aroused by the control as much as anything.

I believe that not only can a man be raped by a woman, but that it raises psychological issues peculiar to males. Mastery of his environment is a strong male trait, and many men judge their “maleness” by their assessment of how well they can control that environment. An erection is a physiological response to stimulation that can occur separate from a man’s emotional choice about a situation. A man who is raped has had his choice taken from him and his sense of maleness violated. In addition, his own body has betrayed him by “actively” participating in something he didn’t emotionally want to do. The sense of a lack of control would be compounded by confusion and guilt. I would think that is a potent and vicious cocktail of feelings.

I had a conversation like this 20 years ago with an FBI agent and a former police officer, both males, who laughed at me when I said it was possible for a man to be raped by a woman. Thus I’m not surprised by the response here. I’ve been teaching criminology off and on for the past 15 years, and whenever rape is discussed I make the point that men can be raped by women. I emphasize the psychological harm it can cause. And I point out that non-consensual sex is rape regardless of who is controlling the situation, male or female - even if it doesn’t meet a strict legal definition of rape.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:10 am pete the elder:

In the state of Texas this would qualify as at least sexual assault, but probably not aggravated sexual assault. Texas Penal Code 22.011 states that sexual assault occurs if the perpertrator “(a) A person commits an
offense if the person: (1) intentionally or knowingly …. causes the sexual organ of another person, without that person’s consent, to contact or penetrate the mouth, anus, or sexual organ of another person, including the actor” and that “A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if: …. (5) the other person has not consented and the actor knows the other person is unconscious or physically unable to resist; ….. (7) the actor compels the other person to submit or participate by threatening to use force or violence against any
person, and the other person believes that the actor has the ability
to execute the threat;”

For aggravated sexual assault it is 22.021 and you could argue that threating to have him falsely arrested would meet the condition of “(ii) by acts or words places the victim in fear that death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping will be imminently inflicted on any person;”, but that would be a bit of a stretch. The word “rape” does not appear in the statutes from what I have read so far.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:12 am Casey:

Wow…just wow…

Let’s just replay the scenario with a couple of minor changes…..

Two women go out to a club and have a few too mnay to drink. One woman departs with a man leaving the other at the club. Unfortunately, she is too inebriated to drive and rather than risking it she elects to stay in hotel. The woman remaining at the club, a strong, fit, 21 year old elite woman athlete had struck up a friendship with a slender, effeminate metrosexual male who was stuck without a ride. Not feeling a threat from this man, and both being drunk and short of funds, they elect to share a room for the night after which she would drive him home. Both agree that only sleeping would occur in the room.

The woman awakes in the middle of the night to find the man on top of her having sexual intercourse. When she protests and tells him to stop he angrily refuses and threatens to ruin her career and image by going to the press or national Inquire and releasing made-up details about their night together and possibly even photos. While she could physically stop him she is stunned that this is happening and afraid of his threat and its potential impact on her public image and potential for a broadcasting career.

Now…given that he began intercourse with her while she was asleep, and threatened harm to her career when told him to stop, would that be rape? Would anyone be saying “just get over it”? Or would it be that nonconsensual intercourse still rape, no matter the circumstance?

When did the rape occur? When he entered her while she was asleep? When he threatened her and continued? Did it stop being rape because she could have physically made him stop but didn’t?

Why is this different from Mike’s story?

p.s. To answer the “what was he thinking” question there’s this. Perhaps he saw a pregnant woman in a difficult situation and wanted to help as best he could within his means. Perhaps, because he was a gentleman, he had no intention of doing anything other than what he said; sleep it off and get her home safely in the morning. Perhaps, this was a good deed getting taken advantage of and punished. There are many, many good men in the world who would want to help a pregnant woman in distress.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:14 am acidclay:

What a strange story. I agree that this is rape since the man did not consent. I don’t quite understand how the woman got him hard without his consent though.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:18 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

Surprised, you’re frequently ‘outraged’, ‘indignant’, ‘disgusted’ and appalled, for a public audience aren’t you? It’s fun to wave the flag of indignation in front of a crowd. That way, everyone gets to see what a wonderful, caring, thoughtful individual you are.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:21 am Ratatosk:

I am sometimes called metrosexual by some people… mostly because I have long curly hair I think. But, I have, twice woken up from drinking to find a girl doing something or other that I hadn’t particularly agreed to. Once they were done, I thanked them for the enjoyable time.

I guess I didn’t see it as them exerting power over me, nearly as much as I saw it as a horny drunk girl jumping me. The one girl that was actually on top of me had put protection on me as well, that doesn’t seem like rape to me. of course, this guys experience may have been very different. If it was ‘rape’ to him, then I suspect it was rape, as far as I’ve been able to tell the difference between rough sex, Sadomasochism and rape seems to be the psychological state of the participants.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:25 am TSUGambler:

I don’t know how many of you guys are remembering how it was when you were 19, but when I was that age, the slightest stimulation could get me going, even if I were thinking about Grandma or dead puppies.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:27 am nynick:

Without passing judgement on female on male rape, this guy is just a good old fashioned liar.
How many women do you know go clubbing when their six months pregnant thirty five miles away? How many of those women would not make arrangements of some kind to get themselves home?

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:29 am Casey:

Ratatosk….

If you were thanking them for an enjoyable time it sounds like you were consenting, albeit partially after the fact.

Mike did not see it that way and therein lies the difference as you noted.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:30 am seguin:

Snoop: Yeah, he shouldn’t have been in that position. But that doesn’t excuse the perpetrator. If he rode a motorcycle without a helmet, that would be HIS choice, his liberty to do so. However, she infringed on his capability of making a choice for himself. That’s called coercion. Stop me if I’m going too fast for you.

Tatter: They already are extended WAYYYY beyond the threat of physical force. Women can claim rape for anything nowadays. Have second thoughts in the middle of sex? Claim rape afterwards. Heck, most courts barely need proof for a rape conviction anyway.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:30 am Annony:

Casey, exactly, except for one thing: he could have gone to prison for a long, long time. That’s what makes the threat of false accusation worse than the threat of violence. If you’re beat up, you go the hospital, you get fixed up, and it’s over in a few weeks or months. If you get accused of rape, you have an ordeal that goes on for years, ruins your reputation, and ruins you financially. If you (as would likely be the case) are convicted, you can plan on 10 or more years behind bars.

I’d chose getting the crap beat out of me.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:32 am Bod:

Lots of guys become erect while asleep. Never heard of the term ‘morning wood’?

Staying erect while he’s being forced to perform? I’m going to enter a social minefield here, but do all/some women rape victims stay totally unlubricated during their ordeal? I have no idea. I do have to say, erections aren’t necessarily as fragile as they’re made out to be.

Lastly, all this ‘what was he thinking?’. That’s dangerous ground. When a woman gets dressed up in a short skirt and a pair of heels - well - I ask you - what was she thinking?

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:33 am plutosdad:

I was not raped but had an ex gf steal a little over a thousand dollars from me and also used threats to keep me silent. This girl was an actress and could cry on command whenever she wanted, and manipulated others easily. I did talk to 2 lawyers but both suggested I walk away, that the money was not worth what she could do to me in court, so I did. I still have a big problem trusting anyone.

I guess the only learning experience from Mike’s story is to not get separate beds, but separate rooms. Or better yet, buy her a cab even if it’s hundreds of dollars. Better than walking into a nightmare because you tried to do the right thing.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:33 am David:

I believe him. I was once assaulted by a girlfriend. I don’t remember the conversation leading up to it, but we were standing in her kitchen and she accused me of something, then within a few seconds accused me of the exact opposite. I replied that what she had just said was crazy because she was contradting herself. She screached, “I’M NOT CRAZY!”, took two of three steps towards me, ripped by button down shirt open with her left hand and scratched me across the chest with her right hand. She did it with such force that I had three deep and bloody gashed down my chest. I told her that if she ever did anything like that again, I would put her on the floor - meaning I would hit her so hard I would knock her out. It was like I flicked a switch. She went totally calm, stepped back, smiled and said, “You lay a hand on me and I’ll call the cops.” Totally confused, I replied, “But you’re the one who attacked me.” She continued smiling while explaining, “I can do anything I want. The police won’t touch me because I’m a woman.” I didn’t respond, but left her house and broke off contact with her. I have no idea, but my guess is that she knew exactly how to play the police in order to get away with violence towards men. I figure if I remained with her I would end up dead, in the hospital or imprisoned if I ever dared defend myself against one of her attacks. Because of this, I tend to believe this story. This woman, like my ex-girlfriend, knows that a man can’t use his strength to defend himself as long as she is willing to lie to the police. She can do anything she wants and the police won’t touch her.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:33 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“Perhaps, this was a good deed getting taken advantage of and punished. There are many, many good men in the world who would want to help a pregnant woman in distress.”

Congratulations, Casey. You’ve successfuly managed to redefine “naiveté”.

Drunk 19 year-old males do not share hotel rooms with single women out of the goodness of their hearts. You’re going to havee to trust me on this. If he were genuinely concerned for her welfare and/or honor (*cough*) he could easily gotten a separate room for himself (if he had any brains, he never would have put himself in that situation).

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:33 am celebrim:

Just for the record, I have my doubts about this story as well. What I can’t decide is whether the problems in the story are the result of deliberate fabrication, or the story is basically true with a bit of self-delusion and exagerration to give himself some emotional cover for a humiliating experience.

In any event, the reasonable doubts that the story raise limit just how much of a statement I want to make about it, because I don’t want to find myself defending something because the evidence is ‘fake but accurate’. Hense, I’d much rather that this discussion was about a story that was less problimatic.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:42 am celebrim:

“I’d chose getting the crap beat out of me.”

Me too. I speak as someone who has been beat pretty bad on occassion, and I have a hard time imagining the beating which be worse than being convicted of the aggravated sexual assualt of a pregnant women. For one thing, being imprisoned amongst societies most violent is no picnic when its comes to violence you have to endure to say nothing to the irreparable damage you’d endure to your reputation. Wounds heal. Slanders don’t.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:48 am wc:

An erection is an involuntary physiological response. Most if not all men have stories of times when they had an unwanted erection that caused them embarassment. Multiple factors can work toward a man ’staying hard’ against his will. Women can show sexual arousal too, through hardened/erect nipples underneath their shirts, and it too is involuntary. It has to do with the the parasympathetic nervous system. I think the confusion has to do with the fact that other muscles in our body contract and ‘get hard’ voluntarily, through the sympathetic nervous system.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:48 am newton:

And we wonder why so many men no longer want to have anything to do with women!

I believe him. And I’m a woman.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:49 am Larry Sheldon:

Well, after reading through the comments to get here, it is clear that there is still no sympathy for abused males, so my primary thought now is “Why bother?”

But there are some things in the comments that are simply not true.

Something “men can defend, women can not”. Bull Shit. Pure and simple. Even if you leave out the “blackmail” and “nobody will believe him” and related angles. Women can physically damage a man seriously. Seriously.

Men are in fact pretty powerless, any way you look at it.

But I will agree that the comments do provide evidence that drinking is a bad idea–it robs you of the last vestige of control–and makes you vulnerable to drugging and a number of other avoidable hazards.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:50 am RiverC:

Helen, while this was sexual assault, this is basically identical to the story of Joseph. If he were a real man he would have done the time for the injustice against him.

That’s part of being a man. Taking people’s crap so society can exist.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:52 am Larry Sheldon:

And I meant to add that I think that contrary to common opinion, rape is not a black or white issue (and I make no reference to race here, I mean: A given case is not Rape, or Not Rape).

There is a gray scale. There are situations where at the time, and in retrospect later, I was and am not sure what happened.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:56 am Stacy:

Snoop Diggit-whatever: ““Perhaps, this was a good deed getting taken advantage of and punished. There are many, many good men in the world who would want to help a pregnant woman in distress.”

Congratulations, Casey. You’ve successfuly managed to redefine “naiveté”.

Drunk 19 year-old males do not share hotel rooms with single women out of the goodness of their hearts. You’re going to havee to trust me on this. If he were genuinely concerned for her welfare and/or honor (*cough*) he could easily gotten a separate room for himself (if he had any brains, he never would have put himself in that situation).”

Again, thanks for demonstrating the power of stereotypes. Could the guy be making this all up? Sure. Is he? You’d have to be pretty naive yourself to think that there couldn’t be a 19-year-old Marine who, even drunk, has the decency to throw a protective wing over a pregnant girl. Or to think there couldn’t be a pregnant girl shady enough to do what “Mike” claims this one did. I’ve been around a few times and one thing I’ve learned (many times, and expensively) is that it’s always dangerous to assume that nobody could really do some particular thing. Especially if the person’s race, gender, etc. is the reason for your assumption. “Mike”’s story could just as easily be true as false.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:58 am MikeT:

Okay all you men. I’m not understanding something here. All my 66 years I have believed that the male erection is a very delicate thing - collapsing at the least bit of pyschological distress - and that many men suffer from premature ejaculation resulting in collapse. Right? Then tell me, how can a woman with a “keep IT up” on an unwilling man long enough to get what she wants? Are you saying that “fear” can cause an erection?

You’re naive if you believe that about young men. Erections while asleep are very common, and odds are against him that it’ll just go away if he wakes up to find himself penetrating a very excited woman.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:02 am Henway:

As a former bartender, I’ve seen plenty of pregnant women partying without the concerns for safety that nynick assumes. Also, I have witnessed that just as some men get limp with drunkenness, some go the other way, and maintain involuntary lumber, even asleep. No interest or external help necessary. A different kind of whiskey d**k. I don’t think it’s reasonable to disbelieve Mike just because one’s own plumbing works differently. Ask around. It’s been known to happen.

Aside from the pressures of career penalty and possible arrest, this woman put Mike in the position of betraying another woman he loved, an infidelity he’d never intended, carrying its own shame and risks. How do you explain that one to your girlfriend when you bring home crabs (or worse)? How do you protect yourselves against whatever this bar-rat might’ve brought with her?

Unlike some other commenters, I didn’t get the idea that Mike “couldn’t get over it” for 17 years, but rather that he’s finally now admitted to himself what really happened. There are those occasions in life when we all look back and realize that things weren’t what we thought at the time. He’ll cope and move on now, I’m sure, but there’s no coping possible for an imaginary assault, which unfortunately so many here seem to consider it.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:07 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“she infringed on his capability of making a choice…”

No she didn’t, seguine.

He chose to get drunk.
He chose to not plan a way home.
He chose to get a room with a complete stranger.

Here’s my theory: The fundamental tenet of feminism is that womyn & men are completely equal and should be treated exactly the same in every circumstance. This requires, naturally, that men and womyn be equal-opportunity victims, as well. So now we’re forced to prop-up this notion by convincing ourselves that a 19 year-old male marine has been raped by a ferocious pregnant woman. Going too fast for you?

While I appreciate how desperately you NEED for men to be victims like you, it not gonna happen. Men don’t want to be victims, and we’re not going to let that bumper sticker stick.

We’re not better than womyn. But that doesn’t mean we’re the same.

Mike wasn’t raped. He just had a bad case of ’stupid’.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:09 am Bozoer Rebbe:

Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force.

So if a boss threatens a female employee with loss of her job if she doesn’t have sex with him, that’s not rape?

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:11 am Annony:

That’s part of being a man. Taking people’s crap so society can exist.

Somebody has a Jesus complex.

No, the answer to injustice isn’t turning the other cheek.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:11 am James Landrith:

SarahW and Aronamos and a few others:

I assure you as I type this response and my hands shake with rage - I was indeed raped. This is not fiction. This is not funny. This is not your experience to childishly dismiss. Penthouse? Hustler? Really? Wow this thread is full of children.

NyNick:

She did have a ride home. As I mentioned above, he DISAPPEARED - most likely with someone else to have a good time on their own. What woman would be in a club at 6 months pregnant? Gee, I don’t know. Hit some clubs and you’ll easily find a few. As my own experience suggests, she is not a “typical” woman, but any stretch of the imagination.

For some of the other posters:

It is not something I need to “get over” or “suck up” or “man up” about.

Having spent 15 years next to a rape survivor (part of why I ignored my own rape - I couldn’t support her in the manner she deserved while dealing with my own), I have daily experience with this matter. Do any of you know what it is like to wake up next to a woman screaming in her sleep, fighting an invisible attacker or attempting to strangle you in your sleep as she is unable to wake out of the nightmare and can’t see you as her husband? How many of you are man enough to deal with that for YEARS ON END???? Not likely many of you.

Gee, I wonder why I took so long to deal with my own shit…

Anyone here at all?

It is not cute, funny, or laughable. It is painful, disgusting and at times - shameful to think about.

Ignoring it and suppressing it for so long hasn’t worked - even though I needed to be there for someone else while she gained her strength - something a real man would do. I’m working through this with an experienced rape counselor and I will be fine on the other end of this.

I am doing what a real man does - facing it. I am not doing what a insescure, cowardly little man-child does - pretending, deluding, ignoring and self-destructing.

Since when did denial and self-delusion become manly traits? Since when did hurting a pregnant woman and her child become acceptable behavior for a man?

When? When? When?

A real man (not an immature little wimp of a man-child like some of these posters) knows when he needs help rather than bottling it up until it explodes onto some innocent bystander. Anyone volunteering to be that bystander for me? Anyone? Anyone at all?

But thanks to so many people for revealing their general lack of humanity and total immaturity. Glad to see that victim-blaming and childish behavior know no gender.

Snoop (use your real name like a real man would):

I was a 19 year old Marine. Do you know how much that the Corps paid to an E-3 back in the day? Do you think the woman was wealthy or something? We split the cost, because we were both living on limited means. This was the semi-monthly night out and I planned for Further, why would I ever, in a million years have expected that a pregnant woman would do this to me? Are you f*cking psychic??????

Trust you on this? You weren’t there. You are talking out of your ass in order to make excuses for a rapist.

celebrim:

There is nothing “problimatic” about what happened to me other than that I was raped for helping out a friend of a friend. It is just that simple.

This will be my one and only posting in this ridiculous thread as I’m too pissed off to be civil any longer. All I hope is that another man reads my story, ignores the hate and immaturity of so many of these posters and seeks help earlier. I would have much rather gotten through this when I was 19, but I didn’t have that luxury as I left for the Gulf War a few months afterward and was then POS’d to a new duty station and married soon after that to a woman who had more than enough baggage for both of us. Life got in the way of “getting over it.”

Live through it first yourself and then tell me how to deal…

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:14 am PJ:

Oh crap.. all you who are lumping all the ‘get over it’ responses into one basket, PLEASE!

And for the women who think a man cant keep an erection, especially at 19 yo, against his will.. think again. “My Body betrays me” sound familiar?

Here’s the point, in case I didnt make it earlier, Rape is about power. The kid isnt so much concerned he was raped, he’s more concerned about the loss of power in the situation.

THAT is what he needed to deal with. And get over.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:17 am JA:

The idea that men cannot be raped by women has many sources; unsurprisingly, it is a staple of feminist literature like Susan Brownmiller’s “Against Our Will.” The premise was that men use their erections as “weapons to generate fear.” Rape was merely the most extreme instantiation of a much broader continuum of oppression — the oppression of the penetratee by the penetrator.

Now, whether or not there is something special about penetration-rape (and I think there is), the evidence is clear that women suffer more from penetration-rape than men do. The theory is that rape is first and foremost an opportunistic, outlier strategy for men to propagate their genes; the flip side to this is that the agony of rape for the female is especially severe because it is, like the man’s promiscuous sex-drive, deeply rooted in her biological nature. A central premise of Thornhill and Palmer’s book “A Natural History of Rape” is that “rape subverts female choice, the core of the ubiquitous mechanism of sexual selection.” This “subversion”, which violates her deepest, unconscious, most intractable desires, is experienced by the woman as unparalleled psychological trauma.

This kind of to-the-bone, spiritual trauma is simply unaccessed when a man is raped by penetration. The less extreme rape-by-commandeering is, as you can imagine, less traumatizing still. In general, at least.

This doesn’t mean that we should treat all these forms of rape different in a legal sense, but it does mean that there are, in fact, real world distinctions between the rape of a woman, the penetration-rape of a man, and the rape-by-commandeering scenarios illustrated in the above email.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:18 am Mary Jackson:

I believe “Mike’s” story and I’m sympathetic. But does it come under the definition of rape, which usually involves actual force or threat of force. Duress is different from threats of violence (though still wrong).

I’d be more inclined to see this as sexual assault. For info, in the UK the legal definition of rape is penetration by the penis of somebody’s vagina, anus or mouth, without their consent. It can be committed against men or women but since it involves penile penetration it can only be committed by men.

That’s the legal stuff - it doesn’t mean that women can’t commit sexual assault that is just as traumatic for the victim.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:19 am Mary Jackson:

So if a boss threatens a female employee with loss of her job if she doesn’t have sex with him, that’s not rape?

Technically, legally no - it’s sexual harassment.

The definition of rape - indeed all criminal offences - needs to be precise, otherwise nobody will ever be convicted of anything.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:22 am Emily:

While I am revolted by some of the responses on this thread, I’m not surprised. Most people just don’t want to believe it’s possible for a woman to rape or otherwise sexually abuse a man.

I have a friend who several years ago (he’d just turned 18) made the “mistake” of falling asleep while watching a movie with a group of friends at one of those friend’s houses. He woke up to find that everyone but the hostess had gone home, and the hostess had unzipped his pants and was in the process of giving him oral sex. He was horrified, as he had no such interest in this “friend” and had already told her so. Apparently she thought she could change his mind by showing him how good she was at giving head. He pushed her away and immediately left her house. He was embarrassed and ashamed and disgusted. He felt stupid, like somehow he should have had the foresight not to allow himself to be put in such a situation, although he never in a million years would have expected she might do something like that, so how could he have foreseen the danger? I mean, after all, women don’t take sexual advantage of men, right???

To compound the situation, the next day the girl was mad at HIM, saying he had been rude and inconsiderate of HER feelings by rejecting her sexual advance. And all their friends sided with HER, leaving him to deal with his embarrassment and shame all by himself.

Now, this situation does not rise to the level of rape, but it qualifies as a sexual assault. If the genders of the parties were reversed, there is no question how others would have looked at this situation - all hearers would have been appalled and would have rightly villified the perpetrator. But since a girl forced oral sex on a sleeping guy, my friend was sure that if he told authorities, no one would think it was wrong, or they’d say “gee, I wish *I* had that kind of problem!”

Regardless of the genders of the people involved, waking up to find yourself involved in unwelcome sexual activity feels like, and IS, a violation. If it would be wrong for a man to remove a sleeping girl’s pants and perform oral sex on her, it is equally wrong for a woman to remove a sleeping man’s pants and perform oral sex on him. If it happened to a girl, she’d be encouraged by her outraged friends and family to go to the police, despite her shame.

In contrast, the other friends of this young man I know either thought his situation was nothing to complain about, or thought HE had been in the wrong for rejecting the girl. Disgusting!

This episode cost him his friends, because the perpetrator cast herself as the wronged party, and forced their mutual friends to choose between them. All their female mutual friends sided with the girl, and their male mutual friends didn’t want to “make trouble” and by their refusal to take a stand, by default sided with the girl. All of them have been so well taught that sexual assaults are only done by men to women, and so none of them appreciated that my friend felt just as violated as any woman in his situation would have felt.

I might also add that the shame, the violation and the subsequent abandonment by his friends sent this young man into a downward spiral into depression that he has struggled with for more than 3 years. This encounter seriously damaged his feelings of self-worth and changed him from an upbeat guy with a positive view of his future into an unhappy person who sees his future as a long bleak road of emptiness. It makes me very angry to see how much that idiot girl hurt him, and I know she’ll never be punished for it like she deserves to be. It was a sexual assault, no two ways about it.

/sarc
But I guess he just needs to “get over it” and man up, right? After all, he’s a man, and men don’t have feelings. Besides, what 18 year old would turn down oral sex? So his story must be bogus. Just another masturbatory fantasy. /sarc

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:23 am Greg:

the real question is: “Can a woman rape a woman?” Or better yet: “Can a tranny rape a tranny?” And would it make a difference if they were on their honeymoon, in LA.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:23 am Bozoer Rebbe:

Exactly! Men can’t perform without some interest in performing.

Most healthy men wake up with an erection from time to time. Exactly what interest did they express in their sleep?

To Mary Jackson, if you wake up to find a man performing cunnilingus on you, is that rape?

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:27 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

So James Landrith, you’re “Mike”? This is your awesome story?

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:29 am Brian:

The story is silly. I agree that it is nothing more than a “dark” Penthouse Forum story.

Absent a risk of contracting an STD (which does not seem to be the focus of his conern), I think all young men would welcome waking up to a woman getting a workout on them. As to psychological damage. What??? Because she was “not his type”?

I do not think men can really be harmed by non-violent rape and I do not think what he went though consituted violence. It is very different for women. Men are designed for quick action and are much more comfortable with sex as simply a physical act. I do not think that healthy men can feel “violated” by it under the described circumstances, whether is is consented to or not.

Most guys would just enjoy having a great story to tell their friends.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:31 am Annony:

Let’s clear one thing up: a healthy 20-something male is involuntarily erect frequently. If you’re male, in your 20s, and having any difficulty at all, you need to see a doctor. Even in my 40s, all it would take is a woman in tight jeans to make me go “toing”. Nothing voluntary about it. It’s a reflex.

The story in totality is a bit strange, but there are no elements to it, taken by themselves, that lack credibility. If you’re going to insist that this is a fabrication or a distortion, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. We have to disbelieve all female accusations of rape, too. Is that where you really want to go?

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:38 am Mary Jackson:

Bozoer Rebbe - legally no, but if it was without my consent, it would be sexual assault.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:39 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“Snoop (use your real name like a real man would)” Ohhh, gosh, James. You are SO calling me out, aren’t you?

A real man would also accept responsibility for his actions, James. You did this to yourself, but now you want the world to excuse you for it, so we get a big expose’ on the secret world men being raped by pregnant women.

Wallowing in this narcissistic victim-fantasy for the rest of your life is your choice, James.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:39 am Brian:

On the other hand, after the incident, I can see “Mike” being very distrustful of being alone with a woman that he did not know well afterwords. But, that, it seems to me, is not a result of being “raped”, but a result of him learning first hand how dangerous a woman can be who has no compunction about lying to the police about rape.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:45 am Bozoer Rebbe:

SarahW:

And I was not trying to be funny.

Humorless harridans are rarely funny. You don’t have issues with men, you have a lifetime subscription. Your misandry drips from every word.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:47 am Jim:

“Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force. That is why women raping men is virtually a non-issue - most men, including this one, are stronger than most women.”

Mary, what matters is the legal definition, not some nonsense in a commercial dictionary. after all we’re not in the fourth grade. If you have sex with a drunken person (female) that is prima facie rape in almost every jurisdiction in the US. No force involved. Force is not an element of the crime; lack of consent is the crucial element.

“I’m sure rape laws do vary from state to state (I’m British, and our legal definition probably varies too.) ”

Mary, as I recall, penetration is written into the British legal definition of rape. That is completley sexist of course and quite backward, but there it is - every juriosdiction has some loopy old relics of laws.

“I don’t buy the argument that her pregnancy was the equivalent of a loaded gun. He could have got her off without harming the baby.”

Once again - she threatened to cry rape. The preganancy would just have made the police, the judge and the jury lose their minds that much faster and convict him before the trial. I can’t expect a woman to understand this kind of threat because you have never lived under it.

“Exactly! Men can’t perform without some interest in performing. ”

Bullshit. Well, maybe you can’t. Get a clue about basic anatomy.

“All my 66 years I have believed that the male erection is a very delicate thing - collapsing at the least bit of pyschological distress …”

Maybe only around you.

““she infringed on his capability of making a choice…”
No she didn’t, seguine.
He chose to get drunk.
He chose to not plan a way home.
He chose to get a room with a complete stranger.”

If he had been female none of those facts would have excused the rapist. Not one of those communicates consent. She should have doen hard time, just like a man.

“I’m sorry Helen, but this is silly. Men ARE supposed to be different than women. I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings….I hate the whole metrosexual thing, it’s part of what is wrong with the whole landscape…we need men to be men…”

And we don’t need you or your kind for anything, you damned bigot. You really are sorry.

“Snoop: Yeah, he shouldn’t have been in that position.”

That’s the bottom line. The breeder could have walked.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:56 am Bozoer Rebbe:

I’m going to enter a social minefield here, but do all/some women rape victims stay totally unlubricated during their ordeal?

The fact that some female rape victims experience orgasm is generally not considered legal evidence of consent. Your body reacts automatically to certain stimuli.

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:58 am The Gaunt Man:

I guess my parents were right: if you want sympathy, look in the dictionary. You’ll find it between “shit” and “syphilis”.

Was Mike raped? Sure seems that way to me. As others have pointed out before, remove the gender identifiers and see how you feel about it. And please, do keep up the hair-splitting regarding how rape can only happen with penetration. Has a person been any less mugged if they are threatened with a knife or a gun? Are they any less dead for having been strangled rather than shot? The very fact that such a distinction exists enshrined in our law is proof of the double standard, not disproof of the claim. Or do you want to claim that the law can’t be biased against a specific group? I’d LOVE to hear the defense for that one.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:12 am MikeT:

Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg,

Here’s one for you. Guy I knew passed out in a hotel room after a night of drinking while he was in the military. Woke up to find that a gay guy who worked in the hotel had followed him in and was performing oral sex on him.

So, let me guess, that wasn’t rape either, right?

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:14 am Lost My Cookies:

I’m amazed that no one mentioned date rape until 3/4 of the way through the thread.

In college I lived for a year in an all-male dorm. Before we were allowed to move in we all had to attend a seminar given by a local ADA. We were told that if a woman had sex with us then later decided that she felt “forced into it” because we bought her dinner, gave her a ride, helped her fold her laundry, etc…she could charge us with rape. That was back in the late 80’s. They really tried to scare the hell out of us. It’s a wonder we dated at all.

How is this any different than date rape?

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:15 am Dan Irving:

“To Mary Jackson, if you wake up to find a man performing cunnilingus on you, is that rape?”

According to English Law the man would only be guilty of rape if he was using his penis to perform said cunnilingus.

James - thanks for sharing your pain bub. Keep your head up and keep fighting the good fight.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:15 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

Instead of engaging in more excited, breathless discussion about the inner-workings of the male anatomy, how about we enjoy some more hot, steaming narcissism over at “Mike’s” website?

http://www.jameslandrith.com

There, you can find all sorts of new & exiting things like:
Q: What’s Mike’s position on racism?
A: He’s agin’ it!
Q: How does mike feel about public education?
A: He’s fer’ it!
Q: What about people?!?
A: He likes ‘em!
Q: Technology?
A: Loves it!
Q: Foreign policy?
A: Hmmm, that’s a complicated one…

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:17 am Tim in TX:

I find the general female response to this post rather dismaying, and quite frankly, will remember it in the future.

Most of all, contrast these responses - “oh, bullshit, women can’t rape men”, “I don’t believe that could/would happen”, “it was his fault, he was asking for it” and “he could have stopped it any time”, to the original situation presented: i.e., the idea that this man says he could do nothing because he would not be believed.

After enough of this at some point you simply start losing sympathy for women and women’s causes and have to start looking after your own ass. I’ve had similar uncomfortable situations myself where other people suddenly left me with a woman I didn’t know to look after. F*ck ‘em, they can walk.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:18 am MikeT:

I do not think men can really be harmed by non-violent rape and I do not think what he went though consituted violence. It is very different for women. Men are designed for quick action and are much more comfortable with sex as simply a physical act. I do not think that healthy men can feel “violated” by it under the described circumstances, whether is is consented to or not.

That’s because you hang out with men who are controlled by their penises. Most of the men I associate with would not be happy to find themselves in that situation because their religion teaches them to wait until marriage before having sex. No healthy man would be happy waking up to a woman that he is not attracted to not only using him like a flesh and blood dildo, but very clearly, like a predator, making it known to him that if he objected that she would accuse him of one of the most serious felonies there is.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:20 am Bozoer Rebbe:

If you have sex with a drunken person (female) that is prima facie rape in almost every jurisdiction in the US. No force involved.

In Michigan the law presumes that a drunk woman is incapable of giving consent to sex. Of course feminist legal activists have made sure that a drunk man is still presumed capable of forming intent.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:23 am Mary Jackson:

Many posters here sneer at my using a dictionary definition of rape, but also do not adhere to the strict letter of the law, which in the UK and many other countries, and perhaps in many American states, requires forcible penetration by a penis.

Are we talking about legal, technical rape here or not? If we are, which state was Mike raped in, and does the law define what happened as rape?

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:26 am Mark Buehner:

You guys are nuts to dismiss this- the threat of PRISON is surely as menacing as the threat of a beating. Probably more. How about the inferred threat of violence implicit in sending a man to jail for years on a rape conviction? Personally i’ll take just about any beating short of death over serial rape in a prison over several years.

Mary your argument is ridiculous. Makes me wonder where you were the night in question.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:26 am Dan Irving:

Nice strawman.

Now - how about using your real name? I guess that ‘real man’ comment hit a little too close to home eh?

Full disclosure:
I’m on the ‘it is rape’ side of the argument. Don’t care what country. Don’t care what side of the feminist divide. The word has evolved whether Mary wants to acknowledge it or not. If we’re all to be equal, men and women alike, then you cannot have two separate legal standards. If forced sexual intercourse is rape for a woman then it’s rape for a man as well. Force doesn’t have to be physical. She forced him, via blackmail, to do something against his will.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:32 am Bozoer Rebbe:

Mary Jackson (short version):

“Attention must be paid to me!”

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:47 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“Guy I knew passed out in a hotel room after a night of drinking while he was in the military. Woke up to find that a gay guy who worked in the hotel had followed him in and was performing oral sex on him.
So, let me guess, that wasn’t rape either, right?”

Golly-gee, Mike T. OK, it’s rape, but who cares? Just another story about some drunk guy reaping the rewards for his stupid decisions.

Let’s say instead of him getting a “free one”, he was just drunk, passed out and someone took his wallet? Did a crime take place? Of course it did. But that doesn’t mean he was any less culpable for being a drunken jerk making stupid choices.

(Personally, I would have taken the free one and called it even)

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:47 am Helen Smith:

James,

Thank you for your courage and please remember that somewhere out there is another guy who is going through what you are and who may seek help because of you. While they will learn from this thread that many–both men and women–have no compassion at all for men in our society and are the worst sorts of hypocrits and bigots, they will also see a helping hand from others. Thanks again.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:48 am Annony:

Actually, Bozoer Mary’s argument can be summed up as follows:

Women own rape. It’s our tool. You can’t have it.

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:50 am Mary Jackson:

“Attention must be paid to me!”

Attention should be paid to my arguments. Is what happened to Mike legally rape or not? In the UK it would not be; it would be sexual assault at the most.

If what happened to Mike was not rape under the law of the state it took place in, should the law be changed?

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:53 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“Now - how about using your real name?”

You mean like big “Mike”, Dan? Please. I don’t don’t define manhood in such pathetic, rediculous terms.

This is actually quite interesting, because some of the same people defending the foolish choices made by “Mike” are also willing to endanger themselves by posting their a-c-t-u-a-l names on a blog, under the misguided proposition that this constitutes “bravery”.

This enables pretty much anyone to track you down and harass you (or worse). Smart, huh?

Jun 30, 2008 - 11:57 am Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

“..are the worst sorts of hypocrits and bigots…”.

No thanks, Helen. Disagreeing with your pet theory does not make me a hypocrit[sic] or a bigot.

But that fact that you resort to name-calling tells me pretty much everything I need to know about how you develop your theories.

Jun 30, 2008 - 12:02 pm Brian:

Mary is correct, it cannot be rape. A woman cannot rape a man. It is sexual assault.

Mike T: I’ll grant you that. There are a small percentage of young men who are saving themselves for religious reasons. In that case, I suppose they could be violated. Of course, I don’t think any of them would have put themselves in the situation presented in the story. Also, nowhere in the story does he mention that she “stole” his virginity. So that does not seem to be what happened here.

“No healthy man would be happy waking up to a woman that he is not attracted to not only using him like a flesh and blood dildo, but very clearly, like a predator, making it known to him that if he objected that she would accuse him of one of the most serious felonies there is.”

The question is not whether he was happy with it - it is whether the coerced sex damaged him. It seems improbable. As I said in a later post, the most I (and most other males) would have taken away from the event was how dangerous a woman can be who has no compunction about lying to the police about rape. He got wiser in a hurry. That is not long term psychological harm.

I know James has responded in the thread and is angry. But, I still don’t believe that long term psychological damage is possible here.

Jun 30, 2008 - 12:09 pm Brian G:

Good thought provoking article Helen. I have never thought about this issue but in the future I will be more open-minded.

Jun 30, 2008 - 12:14 pm Kevin M:

“Men can’t get raped.