Pajamas Media

108 Comments

1. jvon:

I am disgusted by this, but not surprised. As someone currently going through a divorce, I can tell you that my soon-to-be ex-wife’s friends have been very “supportive” in that they have convinced her that my financial support over the years, not to mention my doing most of the housework and ALL the yard work, has been stifling her freedom somehow. The idiocy that men face on a daily basis is staggering. No sacrifice we make is sufficient, yet they are expected. Note how even a man who continues to provide for his children after a divorce is not only expected to do this, but that it constitutes some sort of flaw; he is damaged goods, since he has this obligation to his children.

It is tempting (and probably accurate to some degree) to chalk up the difference between the two books to the author’s blatant sexism, but the sad fact is that our culture is permeated with these attitudes and there is no getting away from them.

May 15, 2008 - 2:02 am 2. Martin:

Jeez, shock of shocks, an anti-male bias. Her book is a small slice of what is happening out there. Jvon is right. For the women out there that say “so what”, there is a price to pay, men will become more estranged and avoid marriage. Sadly that is reality…..

May 15, 2008 - 5:48 am 3. Monty:

I think a more subtle answer to this problem is that men, by and large, don’t read these kinds of “how to” articles. The self-help genre is almost entirely aimed at women, and (in my experience) seems to aim at what I call the “Oprah demographic”: women who have been convinced that they *must* be special because, well, Oprah says they are. These women also tend to be in the mid-thirties to mid-fifties bracket, and most women seem not to understand that a man is taking on a huge burden when entering a relationship with a woman in this age range: she probably has children already in their teens, an ex-husband who may nor may not be a jerk, and the whole family tree of the ex whom you will now have to deal with at family events and holidays. And this doesn’t even include the financial aspect — many women think of relationships in terms of what *they* want, not what is beneficial to both parties.

It’s no wonder that men are simply staying single. I made that decision myself after my divorce. I’ve been in two serious relationships since, and both women seemed flummoxed that I had self-interested reasons for remaining single. What’s in it for me?, I’d ask them, and they’d go blank. Love and companionship are wonderful, but frankly I can get that without marriage, and not have to worry about losing half my stuff in a few years when my new wife begins to feel “constrained” again.

And there’s the fact that women want you to “share” things with them: cultural events, flea marketing, dancing, whatever. Which is great; most men are willing to do that to keep the peace. But many women don’t seem to be willing to reciprocate. They sniff at things like sporting events and video games as being “adolescent”; they find camping and fishing “icky”; they are bored by technology. (Obviously this is an inaccurate generalization — many women love these things. But they seem to be underrepresented in the divorced-female demographic.)

Let’s face it: in today’s society, a man gets married almost in defiance of his own self-interest, especially if it’s to a woman who already has a family with someone else. It’s a grotesque risk on the man’s part — financial, emotional, and mental — with few commensurate rewards.

If women can’t answer the question “What’s in it for the man?”, then they shouldn’t be surprised that men aren’t rushing to the altar.

May 15, 2008 - 6:13 am 4. dan:

Frankly, it’s self-evident to me that women are the more selfish of the sexes. The above-poster’s observation is undoubtedly true: these books flatter women comnig and going because they are the target audience. Yet the fact that this should be so also highlights women’s apparently generally greater interest in ego-soothing and gratifying – consider the shopping phenomenon, which essentially consists in buying a continual stream of presents for one’s self. It occurs to me that the supposed conspiracy-of-males ethos just pummelled into oblivion or deep corners of the red states is in reality a simple socializing regime to prevent women’s natural egotism from overwhelming the need for familial exclusivity. Of course there is male misbehavior as well, but just as in sex if there is no erection there is no sex, so in family if there is no female exclusivity there is no family. Simple biology and anatomy impose these limitations; it is mere hubris to try to theorize your way out of them. Deny this all you like; personally, I was raised to believe that this was not the case, that partners were equal – and indeed I think that, in the absence of instruction, that’s simply the natural sensibility between two people, two friends, as between lovers. Sadly, I find it very hard at this point to believe that anymore. It seems as though women would rather be, essentially, bought; to treat them in more equitable terms, which requires a certain recognition of quid pro quo, is to invite their complete disdain. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that, in truth, they are big children, with a certain incapacity for empathy. I’m beginning to think women’s famed empathy is less the genuine thing than something more like the eyebrows on a dog. Women want to be well-ruled – period. God I wish it wasn’t like this – I like the model encouraged by the feminist myth! But just try it out – 8 out of 10 times you will be amazed that the theory was invented simply to flatter women and flumox men. Yet another Eve-like example of female treachery.

May 15, 2008 - 6:54 am 5. Roger L Simon:

“Frankly, it’s self-evident to me that women are the more selfish of the sexes.”

Frankly, it’s self-evident to me [who else?] that human beings are human beings.

Leaving that behind, as a twice divorced man with children who dated a fair number of terrific and some not so terrific women, both divorced and single, I know I did one thing right: I didn’t waste a single second reading a self-help book of any kind. I just used common sense and didn’t make assumptions about anybody.

May 15, 2008 - 8:04 am 6. Michael W. Perry:

“Frankly, it’s self-evident to me that women are the more selfish of the sexes.”

Selfish isn’t perhaps the best term for the difference. Self-obsessed might be more accurate or perhaps simply self-focused. While the pattern is merely a general one and has many exceptions, a group of women will talk about themselves and their feelings, while a group of men will talk about things and events (cars, gadgets, and sporting events), even those remote to their own experience.

Notice how much of Hillary’s campaign has focused on herself and her feelings or how she can get away with (admittedly fake) crying. And yes, Obama is also a bit obsessed with himself and his feelings too, but exceptions like that merely prove the broad rule. There is something feminine about him, perhaps because he was raised almost exclusively by women. Like all too many women, he overrates the value of talking and undervalues the importance of deeds, a fatal combination in a President, as Carter demonstrated a generation ago.

You also see it in charitable events. Women are always raising money to cure their unique cancers. How many men walk, run or would even dare mention raising money for research into prostrate cancer?

–Michael W. Perry, editor of Free Lover: Sex, Marriage and Eugenics in the Early Writings of Victoria Woodhull

May 15, 2008 - 9:40 am 7. RodgerS:

I’m a divorced man in a serious/exclusive relationship with a divorced woman for a year now. Like Simon, I found it was better to see both sexes as human beings and go from there. Most of the “assumptions” about men and women seem invalid and convenient.

For example, I met a lot of divorced women who were terrible listeners with poor communication skills, a trait supposedly exclusive to men.

When I attended seminars for singles, I was also astounded how both men and women, despite having their questions answers, seemed to ignore the inconvenient and politically incorrect answers. For example, many obese woman refused to lose weight and complained about why there were no perfect men who had the x-ray vision to see their beautiful inner selves. Many men, with control issues, like their having the need to make the first phone call, could not loosen up.

Both men and women often had a giggles naivety when meeting someone at a dance. Men could not imagine why women would sometimes give out a wrong phone number and women could not imagine why men would sometimes not make the Call…..Well, could it be that one of them wasn’t ready to date or had another agenda? After all, many people are simply not willing to be direct and say No or be transparent at the drink/dance/chat level.

And how about the “ladies” who would talk about the need to date carefully/take your time, then calls you up to tell you about how she has just fallen in love, overnight, rolled her heels the first night out…. then…. 3 months later she up and calls you how lousy the guy really was (I supposed once she got around to talking with him), and lets go to dinner and dancing as friends (buddies). Smiles, giggles. Sorry, my calendar is filled.

Remember, Simon says…use common sense and don’t make assumptions. Thumbs Up!!!

May 15, 2008 - 10:01 am 8. RodgerS:

Oh yeah, I want to share this. I was in a singles group and I got chosen to play the dating game. So one of the questions is what you are going to do on the first date. The first two guys tell this gal about their dream date and the ladies in the audience are all swoons and yeahs. I’m third in line to answer and I said we can go to the local coffee shop our first night out and talk for a few hours. Boy do I get the boos. Like I’m supposed to blow out and evening with a stranger?

Ok, believe it or not I get picked. The end of the first date she says I’m not tall enough for her.

That’s all folks! That’s modern dating.

BTW, my current girlfriend was all up for talking and going slow. My my, we do find what we are looking for, don’t we!

May 15, 2008 - 10:17 am 9. Joanna:

dan: I think the phenomenon you’re describing is just the gender-flipped version of the Peter Pan syndrome. Women like that never grew out of their adolescent emotions, so they don’t want a husband, they want Daddy (just like men who want Mommy instead of a wife). In my experience, if both halves of the equation are relatively emotionally mature, the scenario you describe is much less likely. Pride and Prejudice is an excellent literary example of the two: Mr. and Mrs. Bennet are the immature relationship, while Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy are equal partners.

Of course, your invocation of Eve kind of kicks the feet out from under your argument, because it places the blame for Adam’s actions on his wife. She didn’t hold a gun to his head to make him eat the apple. Are you saying that men are helpless victims of women’s influence?

May 15, 2008 - 10:21 am 10. Larry:

Monty’s comments are right on as far as I am concerned. Roger L Simon still has his head in the sand: his common sense approach resulted in two divorces, so how is that working?

In my situation things that have occurred in my relationships are closely defined in the authors comments. First, in the dating process, no matter what age, an average to attractive and beyond woman are very stand-offish. They know they will be sought after and therefore are ‘too good’ for the average guy who would love them to death and provide for them and their children from other guys. An average guy who breaks into this kind of womans world will walk a tight rope and be expected to support this woman emotionally (and financially) but not show any assertive behavior toward her or her children. Conversely, a woman with her kids merging into a relationship with a guy who has his kids fully expects to be able to use assertive behavior on the guy and on the guys kids. Should the guy be dumb enough to point this double-standard out, he will be dividing the ‘family’ assets 50-50 or more than likely 80-20 very soon. She either gets her way or whenever her kids are raised and gone, she is gone, whichever comes first. From what I have seen, a guy has very little chance of success and/or happiness after a divorce from their initial marriage. Maybe that’s why the good book says divorce is not a good thing! A divorced woman knows she will be sought after no matter what after divorces because men have a natural tendancy to want a woman. A woman will remain divorced unless she absolutely gets exactly the kind of guy she wants, and that is not an average joe. She knows she can stay divorced and have dates that will treat her to a life of full-attention and luxury. There are guys lines up waiting to do so.

The bottom line to me is a guy is at a tremendous disadvantage (screwed) when looking for a 50-50 or 100-100 type relationship. I have heard those type relationships exist but I have never witnessed one.

It is sad to agree with the author, but to even out the playing field a guy would have to date, lie, and agree to anything, to get what he wants, and then run like heck.

Sound like how things are?

May 15, 2008 - 10:40 am 11. dan:

Ah – human beings. Yes, women are human beings, more darling than we in many ways, but also with their deficits – the most profound being, due to their inherently enhanced self-centeredness, a lack of a sense of justice. That there are contrary examples does not, as in a scientific experiment, refute the general validity of this fact and its consequences. As in the apparent paradox noted by Adam Smith, the self-centeredness redounds to group cohesion and group advantage, notably in the case of children and their care; with respect to individual interactions, however, it is a bit of a thorn. It is probably beyond my powers of eloquence to convince anyone that this is an observation rather than an accusation, but among the rebuttals I could make would be: Pride and Prejudice is a *horrible* book evincing all the weaknesses inherent in the self-centeredness of the author’s sex, and the biblical treachery to which I referred was not Adam’s betrayal of the commandment, but Eve’s. Adam answered for himself, as you also read. The point is the voice of the author Dr. Helen – a wonderful woman! – cites is not merely explained by marketing prudence. I know it, and you know it. Nor is it explained merely by the predominance of a recent ideology parrotted by insufficiently self-critical proponents. There are human beings, but there are differences among human beings, individuals and groups. Women are more self-centered. It is true that popularity confers legitimacy among all human beings, but to the degree that individuals deviate from such generalizations, women deviate less. It is a matter of degree, of course. Probably everyone knows men who are possessed by extravagant egotism justified by very little, or nothing at all. But I’ll stop, since I’m sure you probably have stopped reading.

May 15, 2008 - 10:59 am 12. wahsatchmo:

“Roger L Simon still has his head in the sand: his common sense approach resulted in two divorces, so how is that working?”

Actually, sounds like his third marriage is going great, according to his website’s bio.

May 15, 2008 - 11:14 am 13. Monty:

I should add another comment to the fray here: I’m not saying that *all* women (or even all divorced women) are consciously trying to disadvantage men in their relationships. I think the problem is a more general one: television and print media are overwhelmingly aimed at a female audience, and are overwhelmingly concerned with the following topis: self-help, “empowerment”, gossip, or talk-shows. In short, women are being inundated with the message that *their* needs are unique, *their* needs are paramount, that *they* are the victims in any conflict situation.

Males are solution-oriented. Females, I think, are more conflict-avoidance oriented. Where a man will see a problem to be solved, a woman will see a situation where she is the de facto “victim” of some kind of larger conspiracy (generally a conspiracy of males against females).

I understand that women often feel that their “traditional” roles were confining. But they seem not to have considered that men also are role-defined in many ways, and we do not appreciated being cast as the perennial villains in whatever mental melodrama happens to be playing inside their heads on a given day.

Here’s an example of what I mean. Ask most women whether “Transformers” or “Sleepless in Seattle” is a better movie, and you’ll get the latter answer vastly more often than not. And it really has nothing to do with the objective markers of quality: script, cinematography, etc. Rather, I think that women feel that “Sleepless” is better simply by being more “feminine” than a movie about giant robots bashing the crap out of each other. And yet I’d bet that males would go for “Transformers” nine times out of ten for the very same reasons that females wouldn’t, and dislike “Sleepless” for the same reasons women like it. The female point of view is not the de facto correct one (or the more “genuine”), despite what Oprah and most colleges preach.

May 15, 2008 - 11:18 am 14. paul a'barge:

“Divorced men … can be needy. Never give more than you are getting”

What is this, the start of a relationship or a barter session on Craigs List?

May 15, 2008 - 11:48 am 15. Mike R.:

I love a good action flick, and am a total dude, but even I would say that “Sleepless in Seattle” was a better movie than “Transformers.” Now, Iron Man was a much better movie than SiS, as was literally a hundred other guy flicks I could name, but Transformers was such poor cinema that I have to give SiS the nod over it.

May 15, 2008 - 11:56 am 16. Charlie:

A bad marriage will affect you in interesting ways. Although you may be relieved that it’s over, you don’t know how to act without the other party’s influence. Consider the similarities between the effects of living with a mentally and/or physically abusive partner and Stockholm syndrome. There are also parallels between this type of marriage and chattel slavery. No matter how glad you are to be out of the marriage you’re going to be an emotional wreck. So:

Learn how to be single again, and don’t jump into the dating thing too quick. The worse the marriage the longer it is going to take to recover. There will be resentment and a feeling of loss. Work through those first. If you have custody of your children you’re in for an interesting ride, because many women (divorced and otherwise) don’t want a man who is raising children. I have had several tell me that they really liked me, but “the kids are a problem”. I love my children more than life itself and they will always be welcome in my home. I can’t tell you how much it hurt to hear that.

In dating a divorced woman choose someone who is sane and has herself gotten beyond the resentment and loss. If she talks incessantly about her ex (or other boyfriends) or has anger management issues she’s not ready (the same goes for you). Many divorced women want to jump right back into an emotional/physical relationship without considering the long term prospects. If you don’t pay attention to this you will find yourself having multiple short-term sexual relationships, and there are very good reasons to avoid that sort of thing.

Charlie

May 15, 2008 - 11:59 am 17. RodgerS:

Hi Larry, I’m a bit confused. I’m not sure how you can take the position that using common sense and avoiding presumptions isn’t helpful. Sometimes we learn best from our mistakes. A personal dig at Simon is herein, simply, a cheap shot.

I have no idea why you classify yourself as an average guy, but if attractive women are repulsed by you, you might want to think on that. Maybe your assertive behaviors are something more?

May 15, 2008 - 12:02 pm 18. RodgerS:

Hello Charlie,
I agree that it seems many divorced men jump right back into a relationship very quickly, often repeating their same mistakes. Unfortunately, though women seem to take longer, I have seen a number of them repeating their same mistakes or, lets say, relationship avoidance or problem causing behaviors.

I once knew a woman, as a casual friend (she has sort of disappeared), who must have run through around a dozen relationships during the one year period I knew her. She got upset with me when I mentioned that she had a habit of talking about each guy as THE catch, and then constantly raising her bar of expectations until he failed to jump over the next level. My take was that raising the bar was her way of making sure there was no way she would have to take the risk of a real relationship, but always had a great excuse why each person simply wasn’t right for her.

May 15, 2008 - 12:15 pm 19. Brian G:

And all of this assumes that every poor damsel was wronged by the man. One of my best friends recently came home to discover that his wife packed up her stuff and left him for a guy she met at work. That was 8 months. Since, she has been stringing him along and tempting him with reconciliation because it appears that her new wonderful man isn’t so wonderful. In my experience, woman can’t stand to burn that bridge in case they need to run home when Mr. Wonderful is a bum. Also, in my experience when a woman doesn’t want you, she certainly doesn’t want anyone else to have you either.

May 15, 2008 - 12:15 pm 20. Eric:

I just read this MSN article yesterday (yes, single dad dating) and dismissed it as one of those typical articles one would see on the cover of a women’s magazine or a dialogue in an episode of Sex in the City. It hasn’t represented my experience of dating for the last two years.

I had something really great going with a recently divorce woman with kids and it ended because of all the baggage she was having to deal with her ex on. She is just one data point and I’ve learned that everyone and every relationship is different.

They say it’s a good idea to wait a year after someone’s been divorced to date and that seems to apply to a number of situations, in my experience.

May 15, 2008 - 12:24 pm 21. Scott Wood:

I’m sorry, I wasn’t a big fan of “Sleepless in Seattle,” but “Transformers” was dreck.

May 15, 2008 - 12:27 pm 22. Ross:

The author’s approach makes sense if men are more likely to be deeply damaged by a divorce. Women generally fare better in a divorce so they tend to be “bruised” but they can recover given some TLC. Men on the other hand lose their house, their kids, and often their financial security. So men are more likely to be totally bitter and crushed by the divorce. Some men will perceive women to be the enemy and while they will be attracted to women they will still be reluctance to trust a woman.

The law treats men and women differently in a divorce so once a couple has divorced the women realizes that she was emotionally scarred but she came out comparatively ahead in other areas. Men learn that if trust women they lose their rights.

So even though I doubt the author of the articles in question would agree with me on the motivation I would say that men are more likely to be emotionally damaged from a divorce. Of course, it would be nice if there was a little understanding that just because some men might become overly bitter that does not mean that they have no justification for some bitterness.

May 15, 2008 - 12:27 pm 23. Carl Pham:

Eh…bear the cruel cold facts in mind, here. A single woman in her mid to late 40s has a far smaller chance of remarrying than a man in his mid to late 40s. Most divorced men in their 40s who want to remarry will do so fairly quickly, often to younger women. Not true for the women. They may very well find plenty of dates among men who have no intention at all of ever marrying, but if they want to “settle down” they are in general going to have a rough time, much rougher than the men.

Thus, the books. They are more or less a feel-good drug, a dose of wishful fantasy power which makes you feel happier while you’re adjusting to some painful biological realities, which is that a woman in her late 40s is in many ways past her sell-by date, while a man in his late 40s is often still hot.

Arguably there’s also a generational issue. The present generation of women in their 40s and 50s seem to be the most deluded about reality, possibly because they were so strongly exposed to the theoretical musings of the initial feminist movement, uninformed about empirical reality. Earlier generations didn’t receive the indoctrination, and later generations have had bitter experience to temper how much of the Kool-Aid they swallow.

May 15, 2008 - 12:30 pm 24. rjschwarz:

Few men care if a woman talks a little about her ex. Most women find it very troublesome. The term baggage is loaded but the fact is if women find it more troublesome than it’s worth mentioning in an article for women and not mentioning in an article for men.

May 15, 2008 - 12:32 pm 25. Heather:

A more interesting comparison would have been to compare articles on divorced men by a male author and a female author, and then on divorced women by the same. All that’s really been proven here is that Chelsea Kaplan doesn’t think much of men, and her bosses at MSN know the demographics who read the relationship articles on their website think like she does.
***
Back to the real world:

The attractive women Larry inveighs against have learned they can be selfish, demanding creatures and still be sought after because men like Larry prefer to seek them instead of kind, understanding, devoted, rational women with physical flaws. At the same time, he seems upset that these same women won’t consider average-income men with beautiful personalities…I don’t understand the complaint, Larry–they’re acting just like you.

It’s not really surprising that a woman who knows she is only valued by a man for her appearance will take advantage of that beauty before it fades. Men who trade in the first wife for a second one half her age live much, much happier lives post-divorce than their ex-wives.

I’m noticing a second irony, too: Women who shop and spend time and resources on their appearance are criticized as shallow self-obsessed gold-diggers. Women who don’t devote their lives and resources to shopping and appearances are criticized as “not trying hard enough to be attractive enough to get/keep men.” Could you make up your minds, please?

*shrug* The common denominator in all your failed relationships is you. In my case, it’s me. I’d love to blame a culture that loathes self-sufficient straight women in comfortable shoes who prefer ballgames over chick flicks, but reality is if I want to have a relationship with a man I should be learning to walk in heels, batting my eyelashes, and pretending I don’t know a holding call from a infield fly. Sigh.

May 15, 2008 - 12:32 pm 26. DavidS:

I enjoy reading MSN’s dating tips for the very reason that they are usually stereotypical and male bashing. I find it entertainingly idiotic. Today’s ‘what not to do on a date’ articles are pretty enjoyable – did you know that guys don’t want to go shopping? and that women don’t like sports bars? Shocking!!!!

May 15, 2008 - 12:44 pm 27. John:

You know it is really more demeaning to women than it is to men. The implication of the passages about women is that women are these poor delicate flowers that are likly to be damaged and distrustful after they have been left by their man. That passage reads like instructions for adopting an abused child. Implicit in the whole paragraph is the idea that women are incapable of functioning on their own or recovering from a divorce. Really sexist when you think about it.

May 15, 2008 - 12:45 pm 28. Donkey Hotee:

My memory from years back is that the principal attraction to “dating” divorced women was they were lot’s quicker to get in the sack. Didn’t need no high tone advice article to figure that out.

May 15, 2008 - 12:50 pm 29. chicopanther:

When I was 40 and recently divorced, I attempted to date a gal who was my age but she had never been married. She told me flat out that she didn’t marry divorced men because there
must be something wrong with them” so to have caused the divorce.

I quickly replied to her, “Don’t you think there’s something wrong with someone who is 40 and has never been married?”

Needless to say, it didn’t work out between us, and that was a good thing! Talk about preconceived notions. Anyway, it’s better one finds out right away if the other has particular biases they can’t overcome. It saves both of you wasted time and money!

May 15, 2008 - 12:55 pm 30. leishman:

I’m a guy, twice divorced (9- year and twenty-year marriages), four grown kids by my second marriage, in a non-cohabiting exclusive and deeply satisfying relationship with a delightful lady with two teen-aged kids, for about six years. She was four-years’ divorced and in a shared custody situation when we met. We have no plans ever to get married, but our ideal is to share a duplex some day! Once one lets go of the “end-point” of marriage it’s much easier to be patient with each other’s growth experiences and transitional times. Patience pays off with each other’s kids–it took about four years for her kids to decide I was tolerably OK, and my adult kids are (slowly) coming around as well.

May 15, 2008 - 1:00 pm 31. SGT Ted:

I have had several tell me that they really liked me, but “the kids are a problem”. I love my children more than life itself and they will always be welcome in my home. I can’t tell you how much it hurt to hear that.

Such women don’t want to compete for your affection with your kids; it’s selfishness and they are doing you a favor.

May 15, 2008 - 1:02 pm 32. leishman:

I’m a guy, twice divorced (9- year and twenty-year marriages), four grown kids by my second marriage, in a non-cohabiting exclusive and deeply satisfying relationship with a delightful lady with two teen-aged kids, for about six years. She was four-years’ divorced and in a shared custody situation when we met. We have no plans ever to get married, but our ideal is to share a duplex some day! Once one lets go of the “end-point” of marriage it’s much easier to be patient with each other’s growth experiences and transitional times. Patience also pays off with each other’s kids–it took about four years for her kids to decide I was tolerably OK, and my adult kids are (slowly) coming around as well.

May 15, 2008 - 1:02 pm 33. Mama73:

I think women and men who have been divorced need to reflect on their responsibility in the affair.

If you got married to them in the first place, even if they beat you, cheated on you, stole from you, lied to you, you do share at least half the blame.

Something about that personality was appealing to you — better face up to it and resolve the issue before next time.

May 15, 2008 - 1:06 pm 34. John:

Humm. The woman should be sure to ask the man if the divorce is final, when the separation took place, so on and so forth. I must say that in my single years, I found it was just as important to ask women the same questions, becuase if I asked them later rather than sooner, I got surprising answers (e.g., no, the divorce isn’t final, etc.). In fact, just because I’d met and begun dating a woman who didn’t wear a ring didn’t mean she wasn’t married!! Just as a practical matter, the questions that the one writer proposes asking men should certainly be asked early in any dating relationship with either sex (starting with “are you married?”).

May 15, 2008 - 1:07 pm 35. D:

seems less sexist, than pragmatic.

SURE, we’d like the articles to be “fair” in some way, but that flies in the face of the idea that men and women are different with different agendas. Both articles are written by a woman, and both are seen from her point of view. Why then are we suprised that there is a bias? If she might not be as fair as could be, well, we can hope that Dr. Helen would put together a balanced panel, and write soem sort of book from that.

Things to remember [true at times, but not always, naturally] When a woman dates a divorced guy, EPS. with children, her problem ISN’T him, it’s the ex. She is competing with another woman. She may hate her, or may wonder what it was that ended it, but the fact that the ex- can and often does take up the Divorced Man’s time, causes frictional issues. Also? If this guy is serious at all about being in his kids lives, defacto he has to divide attention from the next possible partner.

It is up to her to deal with this or not, of course. Telling NewGirl she should demand all attention, is ultimately stupid. If you try to divide a man’s loyalty this way, you are going to get what you wish for. Either he will give in, or he will remain loyal to the only people in his life who are innocent. If he gives in to her, that means he will give in to someone else the next time. If he remains loyal to his own children, then she will have to learn to share. With luck she will realize that his loyalty and attention actually grows larger that way.

Really companion articles to the two need to be written from the guy’s perspective… even IF guys will never read them. To provide the other persepctive, to show the other way in which a guy might think to women.

A Tangential note that is a curiosity… I would NEVER introduce or try to integrate my children into a dating realtionship, unless it was very serious, and long term. Children are innocent, and easily hurt by vaguries that adults deal with without thinking. Yet, I have know several women that wanted me to immediately start interacting with their kids, and they were angry when I explained my position on introducing kids to the mix too soon. Is that a guy thing? Seems like she might be happy that I was protective of my kids, AND her kids… but that wasn’t the case… :shrug: guess I’ll keep looking…

maybe one of us should just write the book:

“if you want peace, then live alone…”

May 15, 2008 - 1:14 pm 36. DBinSD:

Heather:

You don’t have to change a bit. Call me!

May 15, 2008 - 1:16 pm 37. Larry:

I think Monty is right on again. To me, women are very self-centered AND if things, and I mean all things, are the woman’s way (satisfactory to her way of thinking) she is okay but when there is anything whatsoever, not the woman’s way, she becomes a victim of unfairness and nothing is okay. When several of these ‘not okay’ victimizations are imagined in a woman’s mind – you will be made miserable and/or a divorce is looming. The old saying ‘My way or the highway’ (with half to three-quarters of everything you have or hope to have.

Wow, I sound like a victim!!!!!!!!!!

May 15, 2008 - 1:17 pm 38. PatHMV:

RodgerS seems to know the same women I do. Ditto on all that, Rodger. I’ve known so many women who simply refuse to be happy. The think happiness will come from snagging The One, who must, just MUST be Perfect. It’s a very human trait, unfortunately.

Kudos to Heather, too. I know quite a few divorced women, and very few of them appear to be “better off” than their ex-husbands. Far from trying to keep the kids away from their father, they often have to beg and plead with their ex-es to actually take a break from the new girlfriend and actually spend some time with their children (actually, when the guy does get a new g/f, he often suddenly reverts temporarily to being “good father,” using the kids to impress the new girl). They also have to clamp down hard on their own feelings about the ex and reassure the children that yes, daddy really does love them even though he promised to take them to the zoo on Saturday but then never showed up.

In reality, in my experience, neither party to a divorce is as good and flawless as they think themselves to be nor as evil and rotten as the other person thinks them to be. Where there really is a jerk on one side and a victim on the other, sometimes it’s the man that’s the jerk, and sometime’s its the woman. Neither gender has a monopoly on either virtue or vice.

P.S. Heather, at least a few of us are absolutely looking for self-sufficient women; I can’t stand women who intend to depend entirely on me to make every major and most minor decisions in life. Tell me what you think, I’ll tell you what I think, and then we’ll hash it out together. I don’t want the burden and the hassle of deciding what’s in your best interests without any input from you.

May 15, 2008 - 1:21 pm 39. Isabel:

I am a woman, married 27 years yesterday who is geographically separated from her husband by 9000 miles and likely to remain so for the next year or more. Prior to my husband’s departure I met a divorced man through my participation in a male dominated sport. This guy is intelligent, kind, helpful, good looking, responsible, witty, a wonderful friend and exactly the kind of person that I would be looking for if I was ever in the market again. He has been divorced for nine years. I suspect we get along well because we have a mutual interest, our children are all grown, I have no baggage or a hidden agenda, and I try to give more than I get. Most real men in their 40’s and beyond are not looking for sex toys. Most of these desirable divorced men are Republicans, who do not style their hair, wear cologne, hang out in bars or in church, and they do not watch chick flicks. They are not in debt. They hunt, fish, shoot, run, bicycle, bowl, play tennis and golf and are more likely to eat at Burger King than a sushi bar. They are looking for a woman to share some of their interests, and first and foremost a woman who is not looking for a meal ticket. If you can tell that I truly despise a good number of my own sex you would be right. My father is law and brother in law have both been married to dependant women and it has not worked out well. For independent people the time to be married is when your children need a two parent family . After that it should be because you are still best friends or not at all. Isabel

May 15, 2008 - 1:24 pm 40. Johnmc:

” Mama73:

If you got married to them in the first place, even if they beat you, cheated on you, stole from you, lied to you, you do share at least half the blame.”

Huh?? So if some guy who has been reverent and faithful has been sleazed by a unfaithful partner its still half their fault? Oh please divine the logic of how that should occur?

The first step in a cure for what ails ya is full and uncommitted responsibility, 100% its your fault when that party is the solicitous party. Your prescription is a total rejection of responsibility. And if one can ascribe 50% blame to the aggrieved party then it is is a fast slippery slope that it is 100% the other parties fault.

Sorry I am not buying it.

May 15, 2008 - 1:37 pm 41. Joel:

Divorced twenty years ago. Raised my daughter on my own from age 7 onward. I haven’t dated, won’t date and I don’t even joke about it. The fact that marriage is a bad deal for men was clear to me the first time around – no need to stick my hand on that burner again.

The best advice I heard at the time of my divorce was not to date for at least a year. The reason being that you are not anywhere close to being right in the head until some significant time has passed. Good advice but I took it up a notch.

May 15, 2008 - 1:42 pm 42. Tim:

I’ve got two words for you: Tom Leykis.

May 15, 2008 - 1:43 pm 43. Anonymous Coward:

I find myself in an odd place in that I do think that the advice columnist was inappropriately biased against men. *BUT* I do see a lot of vitriol here against women in the comments. I think some reality goes here.

First off, I’m a very happily remarried divorced guy. I made mistakes the first time around and married the wrong person. That stuff happens. Thankfully no children from that, so closure was a lot easier to achieve. I think that an important take-away is that if you are a divorced person thinking about dating, it is very important to take time away and learn from your experience so that you don’t go and make yet more mistakes. If someone is going to date a divorcee, I would recommend doing one’s best to make sure that they’ve done the rel event soul searching/learning from their past. You don’t want to be their rebound relationship nor another mistake in their future. I think that this advice applies equally well to men as it does women.

May 15, 2008 - 1:49 pm 44. Jon:

Roles? Traditional roles? Maybe any kind of defined roles? That is what is missing. Nurturing and Parenting… the give and take of relationships is learned, not inate and instictive. Everyone works all their life, all the time. They have no time to teach their children anything, Let alone the proper way to caregive to raise a child. When a child sees both parents together ist is more likely to be a rushed and stressful time than a relaxed and special time of sharing or learning. Once a generation of children has lost this nurturing and teaching/learning it is maybe lost forever. We are all damaged by this. Each generation it gets worse. Continuous deterioration. We cannot behave well towards each other. We are not taught how to behave, how to share, how to love, how to care. The link was broken. There was not time. This world we have all created and live in is destroying our humanity slowly but surely.

May 15, 2008 - 1:59 pm 45. Justin:

@ Isabel:

They don’t hang out in church? Please expound.

May 15, 2008 - 2:02 pm 46. PeteL:

The simple fact is we are all animals. Despite what one may pontificate from a cold distance of a retrospective, I think I can speak for most men that when face-to-face with a beautiful woman, one becomes as a marionette to its puppeteer. Even after the initial encounter(s), if a woman is able to provide certain pleasures to a man, believe me, that man is enslaved to that woman in a manner which defies all reason. I think most men will agree. Any woman with any experience soon enough realizes this and takes advantage; why shouldn’t they.

May 15, 2008 - 2:12 pm 47. Larry:

Let’s see if I can address Heather, who BTW made me think about what I was trying to convey. When I was talking about an average joe, I was referring to a guy who I consider average, and that is a guy who is average looking, has a good personality, is a gentleman, has a consistent job, and wants to be married to a woman with similar traits. Heather, I do understand everyone has flaws and I am increasingly aware of flaws I have. When I was married, and still now, I was primarily interested in personalities versus looks, but it just so happened that they were attractive physically too. What threw me back was when a difference of opinion occurred and we talked about a resolution that supposedly would satisfy each of us, she, I assume, was really not satisfied or it injured her in some way. To her I was not totally ‘in to her’ anymore and things (daily life) seemed to become more tense. Things I said were seldom passed off as general communication, they were scrutinized to see if I was placing blame or objecting to her thoughts and feelings. It seemed like 100% her way was the only acceptable way and there was not even an option to discuss it. Not only that but these rare things never were forgotten, they were stacked and accumulated until she felt I never cared about her. That was the farthest thing from my mind, both marriages I was very in love and thought the world of my wife. I honestly wanted very little, very little acceptance and understanding of different thoughts and feelings but I was never afforded that. It was like if I thought or had feelings different from hers that I was against her. Believe me, that was not even close to the truth but no matter what I said, what I did, she would not believe me. larry.r.anderson
@lmco.com. I have searched to see maybe my approach was wrong and analyzed this to death. I still don’t understand how to prevent it. There is still a strong desire to be married to a woman who would be my best friend. I do think it is possible but there is a fear that history will repeat itself. Am I too nice?, probably!! and I don’t know how to change that.

May 15, 2008 - 2:26 pm 48. DaveM:

I don’t think dating someone who’s divorced is such a big deal. The big deal is if there are kids. Of course, I’m divorced without any kids. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. I suppose that if I had just lived with my ex-wife and never married I wouldn’t have to explain from time to time why I’m divorced, but on the whole it hasn’t been a detriment to me.

I wouldn’t have any problems dating a divorced woman. I’d just assume it didn’t work out, like my situation.

On the other hand, I would never date a woman with kids. Maybe as I get older, I’d be willing to change that rule, as long as the kids were conceived during a marriage. But I’d never date a woman who has never married and has kids, because I won’t be the next victim. And I’d never put myself in a position to be financially responsible for someone else’s kids.

May 15, 2008 - 2:52 pm 49. Isabel:

@ Isabel:

They don’t hang out in church? Please expound.

None of my classifications for what real men that I would want to spend time with do, are exclusive. Most religious guys I know don’t get divorced because they find strength in their religion that allows them to stick out the marriage from hell. (Also their wife is generally religious and they are either happily married or miserable together). You might occasionally meet a good divorced man who is religious BUT most of my experience with good plain intelligent unpretentious men is that they are generally agnostic or atheist. They realize that no one gets off this earth alive and they are not sacrificing their life here on earth for some promise of eternal reward or fear of the all mighty. They live their lives for the people they care about and principles they feel strongly about.

May 15, 2008 - 3:27 pm 50. Kelly:

Dating is why I have never gotten divorced. Whoever enjoyed dating? Maybe I don’t look back on it fondly because I was in my mid 20’s (not exactly ancient I know, but still many people my age married the first guy they dated) when I married and I don’t feel as though I missed out on wonderful experiences. I’ve been married for 20 years by the way. I took up camping so that my husband and I could do something together that he enjoys. He never has gotten into reading as I have, but that’s okay. I’ll never get into fishing the way he does.

May 15, 2008 - 3:58 pm 51. Dave S.:

Nothing new here. Reminds me of the standard default when it comes to talking about affairs:

When a woman has an affair, it’s because her husband has neglected her.

When a man has an affair, it’s because he’s a dirtbag.

In short, when a man screws up, it’s the man’s fault. When a woman screws up, it’s the man’s fault.

When are we going to start holding woman to standards instead of indulging them like children?

May 15, 2008 - 3:58 pm 52. Joe:

One thing that was touched on, but should be reinforced, is that both articles are aimed at the type of women who read self-help articles and should be read as such. Seems to me that regardless of your sex, simply asking your companion if they read this dribble will tell you quite a bit immediately.

May 15, 2008 - 4:10 pm 53. memomachine:

Hmmmm.

@ Joanna

“Pride and Prejudice is an excellent literary example of the two: Mr. and Mrs. Bennet are the immature relationship, while Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy are equal partners.”

Sorry? You must mean Mr. and Mrs. Wickham.

Mr. and Mrs. Bennet are the older couple who are parents to the Bennet daughters.

May 15, 2008 - 4:18 pm 54. Twok:

One thing I see missing from all the responses here, is the crux of the issue :

Most men are too afraid to ask for a pre-nup before marriage.

The divorce laws are stacked against men. So get a pre-nup. All these men who are financially cleaned out by women can avoid this well in advance by getting the proper documentations. If she doesn’t want to sign it? Then you know what she is really about, and found out BEFORE it cost you.

Most men are afraid to ask for this, which is why we see all the posts above.

May 15, 2008 - 4:21 pm 55. memomachine:

Hmmmm.

The day prostitution is legalized is the day dating dies a miserable death.

The day someone invents a viable sex robot is the day the future of humanity ends.

…

There’s an interesting theory out that the reason why we can’t see any sign of intelligent life out in the universe is because there’s a catastrophic event that all civilizations have to survive before they’re advanced enough to become interstellar.

I wonder if it’s something to do with alien artificial nooky?

Yes. I’m laughing my butt off as I write this.

May 15, 2008 - 4:21 pm 56. memomachine:

Hmmmm.

“Most men are afraid to ask for this, which is why we see all the posts above.”

Yep. C.f. Heather Mills.

IMO the problem isn’t just that the deck is stacked against men. It’s that the rules are now recognizable.

May 15, 2008 - 4:39 pm 57. rufus:

Great posts here! The books referenced go for the audience. Men don’t read that stuff except for laughs.
I was married for twenty years. The spouse broke the contract, and now I’m single. I don’t think of myself or categorize myself as “divorced.”
I have physical custody of the two children, mid-teens. I told a woman I was recently dating that either of my children were welcome to live with me if s/he became sick, disabled etc. She said they would have to live in a long term care center or some such place.
I said “no way” and “adios.”
I’ve also been told recently by several women that revealing on a dating profile that I’m raising my kids is a bad idea. I was kind of surprised when I first heard it because I thought it showed maturity, responsibility, love etc. Boy, was I wrong.
I think, and it’s obviously just based on the past few years, that women get more mercenary as they approach mid forties.
But, of course, I don’t care what men get like as they ripen. I have no control group upon which to draw such a conclusion.
However, I was smart enough not to include any discussion of my considerable wealth on the dating profile.
Dating is not much fun. Stress and waste of money. I always am expected to pay.
But, getting half of what you worked for stolen by the person who breached the marriage contract is less fun.
Now, I’m feeling really isolated: (this is funny in a way) Last weekend I went to edisharmony, filled out the personality profile, and got a message that I had “no matches.” Out of millions!
I guess I could have told them that from the beginning. I guess all the good women are either married or gay.

May 15, 2008 - 4:46 pm 58. Bob:

I started dating Lynette about two years after her divorce, about the time she had decided that not all men were like her former spouse. We married 9 months later. Having an instant family, she had a 4 year old son, was a bit of a challenge. It helped that we had the same religious background and that she has a loving spirit and was able to overlook a lot of my shortcomings. (”men tend to be that way”, or “at least he’s not as bad as my former husband”). We just celebrated our 31st wedding anniversary in March.

May 15, 2008 - 4:55 pm 59. saveliberty:

Thank you Bob, for such a good story.

May 15, 2008 - 5:23 pm 60. ManFromSexCity:

I’ll comment on the double standard, not divorce issues. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Our ENTIRE consumer economy above the level of unskilled labor is based on the idea that a man should try to attract a woman by supplicating to and worshipping her just for lacking a penis, AS IF SHE IS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD WITHOUT ONE (?!). The Industrial Revolution provided for our basic needs, so Consumer Culture was defined, and it is this culture that is destroying instinctive and successful romance. Though men bought into YEARLY CHANGING *FASHION* for a brief time in the 70s, when advances in clothing manufacture allowed new styles to be created without retooling, modern women have bought into it permanently, and have become very much more status obsessed and catty towards each other, and this female culture has ruined their personalities. They all act spoiled, even though their status symbol products are not even hand made, nor rare, nor have any resale value a mere year later.

You want double standard? Notice how bust size and firmness is not even listed in personal ads yet a guy would be very hated-on if he demanded a size range in his essay. Yet over half of the cute women on such sites spell out in ALL CAPS that men who are not of a certain HEIGHT should stop writing them since they’ll just delete the message. The ironic thing is that its usually a few golddiggers but mainly very SHORT women who write such things, who average two inches above five feet. This being a blog of a psychologist, I think the term “compensation” applies, the cliche being a poorly endowed man buying a Ferrari. I also warn such women, that tall men do NOT answer ads like that except for one reason: casual sex. Another warning: 20% of men on such sites are married.

Look at every status object advert for either sex. The IMAGES are almost all of a woman just EXISTING as aloof trophy objects, with one or more men worshipfully offering her drinks, dinner, diamonds and dwelling. I mean this can work for really cute young golddiggers, but in actuality, even for them, it is a biological fact that men who try to impress women by being “nice guys” who pay for dinner create sexual repulsion in women. That’s the Big Lie that Madison Avenue doesn’t want exposed.

Another Big Lie is that *diamonds*, not only being mined in slavery conditions, are NOT ACTUALLY RARE, most being ground up to make industrial abrasive, as a *monopoly* called DeBeers racks in the profits. Yet I suggest, very strongly, that no man EVER complains about this insanity to a date, it being the romantic equivalent to bragging about your ‘Star Wars’ models.

Note to women: YOU have bought into Madison Ave’s construction of what will make you happy. Even college students spend over one THOUSAND dollars on a purse, every year. You throw away your barely worn clothes, EVERY YEAR OR TWO! Start being less like weird materialistic zombie clones and be more like people so men will becomes less rightfully interested in you only for sex. Once again a psychological term comes to mind: “projection”, in that women spend thousands of dollars a year on accessories that do not in ANY way attract men, but in fact often repel them since it indicates that you have, uh hum, idiotically expensive tastes.

There’s a derogatory word for wussy MEN who do the same thing: “metrosexual”. Guess what? Most women are HIGHLY metrosexual, and it makes them just as unattractive as people.

I have found a few RARE exceptions to meterosexual women, and they are the ones who, in high school, were loners outside of the “popularity circuit” completely. However, this also, on average makes their adult mental health unstable.

Madison Ave. has ALSO brainwashed almost ALL modern women (indeed the weaker sex if so easily susceptible to propoganda) into having a NEUROTIC OBSESSION with being UNATTRACTIVELY skinny! When you finally get a new girlfriend, she drives you, as a man, CRAZY with this mental disorder as she spends half her free time exercising so to create for herself the figure of a nine year old boy. THEN, when they fail this biologically unhealthy task, they BUY pants according to waist size envy instead of what actually FITS, so they walk around with COMPLETELY ARTIFICIAL “love handles” which in ancient mankind indicated parasitic worm infections or worse. The REVERSE the ratio of their hips being larger than their waist!

Also, REALIZE, logically, that in days of old, when your brain evolved its sexual instincts, humans lived in racially homogeneous groups. On average, African men are much taller than Mexican men. So in the PAST, a shorter man was indeed a good indicator of sickness and a bad immune system. But today, living in melting pot cities, height is NO LONGER an indication of vitality. But what do we here every day from groups of girls as they inquire about each others latest dates? The question pops up: “What’s he like?” The answer almost always includes two words: a shy “He’s TALL.” if she likes him, or an apprehensive “He’s nice….” if she doesn’t. Then the topic changes to celebrity gossip again.

Things like this, and more, make the average attractive woman unattractive to the average attractive man, EXCEPT AS SEX OBJECTS. American women are, on average, even the professional ones, SUPERFICIAL, STATUS-OBSESSED FOOLS.

The funniest thing is that all their status-object handbags are made by robots or sweat shop labor at a cost of only a few dollars, and use BRASS pins and pin holes where they should use steal, so EVEN if they DID want to keep them, they literally would not last more than two years. I own a machine shop. The number of accessories I’ve had to repair for dates is ridiculous.

There is also the fact that no matter what the age, situation or status of those involved in early dating, it is the female that will TEST the man for psychological vigor and health by MISBEHAVING once or twice. It is hard-wired, so can be unconscious. It’s a test for what type of father he will make, since, of course, children misbehave all the time, and dealing with that is what’s called “parenting”. For the guys out there, I’ll let you in on a little strategy advise: learn to RECOGNIZE these episodes (for instance she dresses in sweat clothes for a date, takes a 10+ minute cell phone call over dinner, arrives 20 minutes late etc.) as what they are: TESTS.

There is only one correct response to such early tests: imagine she is your child and you are now forced to discipline them. Getting angry tells her you’d be abusive. Worse, ignoring it means you will not make act as a father at all. To be fair, since men are willing to act nice, especially since that’s what the Media tells us to do, in order to be “liked” and thus romantically successful, how ELSE can a woman quickly figure out what you are really like?

What our politically correct culture has also ruined for MOST men who “dress to impress” and act nice is that ACTING part of acting nice, which in most cases involves HIDING your sexual attraction for girls you meet, as if such attraction is shameful in the first place and harassing to express. Guess what guys? After looking around at HOW women dress in skin-tight clothing and after a couple drinks do strip club act dance moves at clubs, uh, just REALIZE that ignoring her physical allure is idiotic. Most of those women spend half their money and time shopping for outfits, and an average of three HOURS to get made up, just to get noticed AS SEXUAL OBJECTS.

Merely sneaking peaks at her shirtline will label you as lacking sexual confidence, especially given the simple fact that a “good man” is a LOT harder to find than a “good woman” since women need much more than niceness and sexual attraction to be happy in a relationship. Even speaking English or having a career path at all is optional in what type of cute girl I’d date. Missing teeth, bad breath, morbid obesity or open sores are about the only limits most men have to what type of female they would happily date (except that higher income men also need a date who will fit into “upscale restaurant culture”).

See, men LACK the “sexual repulsion” instinct that kicks in for women, early on, at the slightest hat drop, and very strongly (though she wont likely let you know that you know that she secretly finds you repulsively unmanly). Of course this has an evolutionary origin: men do not risk getting pregnant. An open secret that nobody talks about is that the balance of power UTTERLY shifts towards the man the moment she starts having orgasms with him (since they release the exact same hormone that bonds women with their newborns). What’s the ancient lamentation of women throughout history?

“He didn’t call back. Men are dogs!”

Guess why we don’t call back. Because, the novelty and ego factors being fulfulled, you are not a HUMAN BEING we want to know, or after you have removed your corset-like dress and your makeup has ran, you look like our mother in the morning, which, had you been honest about your actual lack of supermodel looks in the first place would not be such a shock to us. Spending money and hours on looking better than you really do is the exact moral equivalent of a man maxing out his credit card to look rich, and lying about his profession, which is why bragging is so unattractive to women. Guess what? Us men feel the same way about women who waste money on shoes and purses and wear too much make-up, but we don’t involuntarily fall in love when we have orgasms, so we move on, searching for a non-American (disloyal brainwashed zombie) girlfriend, basically.

That said much of the female-bashing on threads like this one is due to men who simply have not taken the TIME to learn about female psychology and so keep, again and again, buying $100 dinners for women and it doesn’t go anywhere except with a few marriage-minded women. Such women act like the world’s greatest porn stars, after hitting the gym three times a week. When they find a husband, the party is over, the relationship thus dies, and she makes off with the cash.

The DIVORCE LAWS are strongly prejudicial against men, so indeed a divorced *man* may indeed be much more bitter than a divorced woman, for good reason: he’s been shafted. 85% of divorces are initiated by women and result in a man having to pay a lot of money each month, after losing half or all of the possessions more than likely HE paid for.

So my essay really is about dating divorced people, especially men. It’s SO easy for women to fully satisfy men and yet very hard for men to fully satisfy women, and women are divorcing men at a rate of almost 70% (90% for college educated couples, meaning higher income ones!!!). Maybe if American women learned to be happier as people the divorce rate in the USA would not be 5-6 times that of Mexico, Spain or Italy.

Have men changed? Yes, they have been emasculated. Have women changed? Yes, they have been emasculating men for years, destroying their attraction to them! They now dominate the elementary school system, where even normal boyhood has been banned, even medicated, which is when the process begins. The answer for many men? Don’t marry. Just date young girls whose biological clocks are not yet ringing, meaning most of their female friends are single too. I’d suggest dating divorced women who already have kids, but I tried that, and “till ten” babysitters or “family” dates are major romance killers.

May 15, 2008 - 5:26 pm 61. Right Brain:

When I began dating again after my divorce most of the women I met were also divorced and starting over. I learned to, at some point, ask “What happened to your marriage?” Typically their answer would be a pro forma and whole-cloth blaming: “he did this, he did that, he lost a job, he was lazy…” Rarely did women take any responsibility at all, most were innocent bystanders at best, and cowed victims at worse. The correct answer ladies is “It didn’t work out, we tried.” Any other answer indicates that you haven’t a clue why you are divorced.

May 15, 2008 - 5:32 pm 62. Mama73:

Johnmc

“Huh?? So if some guy who has been reverent and faithful has been sleazed by a unfaithful partner its still half their fault?”

YES! He choose a woman that was like this for some reason…and there were signs before it happened, he just didn’t see them (by choice or not) His friends probably saw it a mile away!

But ditto for women who marry physically abusive men. Theres no excuse to put up with abuse now – we have television/radio/the law to remind us that isn’t normal. And unless courtship was extremely brief, there were signs!

My point is, too many people say, “it wasn’t my fault, it was all my ex-spouse” without stopping to think about why they were drawn to the person in a first place.

As long as you ignore that part of you that is responsible, you’ll never be able to “find a good one”.

May 15, 2008 - 5:52 pm 63. Guerrilla Feminist:

MEN … AND … WOMEN … ARE … DIFFERENT.

Number one.

Ossified feminists are ruining up-and-coming men.

Number two.

The amazing ability of humans to decide that gee-whiz ideas should be immediately put in place — and generationalize “men have ruined everyone’s lives” — is leading to a paradigm shift into “I don’t want to have any responsibility for everything, but I demand the right to whine about anything.”

Number three.

Makes me sick. But not enough to stop preparing for the day when men and women actually WORK TOGETHER.

May 15, 2008 - 6:22 pm 64. Greg Toombs:

Heather -

Why couldn’t you bat your eyelashes as you talk batting averages? Sexy as hell, to me. Think of ‘Invincible’ with Mark Wahlberg and Elizabeth Banks. Yes, I know it’s a movie.

I dunno, but dumb or disinterested is never attractive.

May 15, 2008 - 6:59 pm 65. bour3:

Frankly, it’s self evident to me …

hang on, I feel a laughing fit coming on.

*pauses*

Sorry. Never mind. Carry on.

May 15, 2008 - 7:36 pm 66. Charlie:

RogerS: I am what you would call (extremely early middle age, and I only date women very close to my age. Many of them are looking for “The Man”. They tend to be very accomodating up front, but develop complications quickly. That sort of thing can lead to the serial bed hopping thing I was talking about.

Sgt Ted: Yes, I agree, but it was like watching someone kick a puppy.

As a single father I find that I do not have much in common with women (or men) who have who have never married and/or don’t have children. Both are life changing experiences, and while they might be interesting people we’re just not on the same page.

Charlie

May 15, 2008 - 7:54 pm 67. Sparks:

I’m recently divorced. Couple of kids. 50/50 custody. Yes, they’re the most important thing to me right now. I’m very interested in meeting somebody wonderful and hopefully getting a chance to do it over right next time. But not right now. I want at least a year to get my head in the right place, make sure my kids are good with things, and then I can start thinking about dating. So far, kids and myself are doing all right.

I know couples with kids who decided they want a divorce, haven’t even filed, but have separated and started dating. Some of them have kids too. But parents are too busy focusing on themselves and their own “needs”. Some still tell me they’re focusing on their kids, but their kids need help and are not having an easy time. I suspect their feeling a bit abandoned. Some divorced or separated parents actually ignore their kids completely. They’re acting like self-centered 15 year-olds all over again, and so they’re likely going to be hooking up with immature mates doing the same thing… partying, having a ball, ignoring the important things that matter at this stage of their lives… $1000 says they’re next marriages are disasters too. Between having kids that are acting out for want of attention, self-centeredness, immaturity, and lack of focus on what’s important… I expect them to fail… again…

Re: Mama73’s comments, while some are disagreeing with it, I think she has a valid point. Abusive, arrogant, macho, gold-digging, self-centered, alcoholic, whatever it may be, it’s usually there when people get married. If you didn’t see it, maybe you were too stupid to see it, or more likely, you chose to ignore it. Then you pay the price and deserve some of the blame since you allowed or enabled the bad behavior.

My ex was just excessively needy and insecure, and she couldn’t make decisions on her own. As a result, she was more “attached” to me, and I mistook that attachment as love. Later, I discovered she didn’t really love me. She was looking for a father to take care of her. Little did I know that I was failing as a father to her, and all sorts of resentment was building up inside of her. I encouraged her to have some independence. I think she felt that I was pushing her away when I did that. And when I decided to pursue different directions in my career, she couldn’t be supportive of me. She was terrified because she saw it as undermining her security and stability. We were plenty secure financially, but that’s not how she perceived it. And that’s when I really found out that she didn’t love me. She told me I was being selfish and that she didn’t want me to change my career and then she exploded; 15 years of anger and resentment. Accused me of being overbearing. Said that things always had to be my way and I made all the decisions. I was flummoxed! Marraige counseling turned into weekly sessions where she could vent anger and when the counselor finally interrupted and said, “let’s let him respond to that,” then I would express a sentence or two of my own take on things or admit how I felt about it and she would burst out of her sit, get red in the face and say, “You’re such a *%&$ liar!”.

With 20/20 hindsight, I know realize that all of this makes perfect sense, and WOW, the signs were all there right from the beginning. She wanted a dad replacement, or a big brother and didn’t want to emotionally invest in me. She needed somebody to take care of her, but I was looking for an equal partner.

Yes, I am to blame. I choose her. I should have seen the writing on the wall, and I was somehow attracted to her neediness. Some of her insecurities and nervous behavior sometimes came off as cute or funny (not just to me, but to friends as well). We’d think sometimes that she was just going a long way towards being polite and not being overbearing… really, she was neurotic and indecisive and needed somebody to make the decisions for her. But that doesn’t mean she always liked the decisions that other people made and how they affected her.

So in a year+ time, I hope that I might find somebody kind, thoughtful, mostly self-sufficient and self-confident, with or without kids. If she has kids, I hope that they are the most important thing in their lives and I would encourage her to make them her priority and not worry so much about me. I’ll be there. I’m not needy. I don’t want to own her and I don’t want her to own me… Let’s just share some good times and each other. Sounds corny, maybe, but a “me + you = something much more” as opposed to a more submissive person being absorbed into the more dominant person and making “something less than one”.

Headcases need not apply.

Ya, I know… I’m prepared to be single the rest of my life.

May 15, 2008 - 8:58 pm 68. ManFromSexCity:

Unexpected heartbreak, 20/20 vision, and red flags? Balderdash. Youth is too fleeting to figure such things out any more than adults read Shakespeare: “Romeo, oh Romeo….deny thy father, and refuse thy name.”

“Fatal attraction” exists since OPPOSITES ATTRACT, but often, instead of orbiting one another to form an atom, they destroy one other.

Personalities should not be TOO much different, or you are dating an alien. But COMPLEMENTARY difference is the spice of romance. A Banker and the Showgirl. An Architect and a Nurse.

Sparks wrote: “With 20/20 hindsight, I know realize that all of this makes perfect sense, and WOW, the signs were all there right from the beginning. She wanted a dad replacement, or a big brother and didn’t want to emotionally invest in me. She needed somebody to take care of her, but I was looking for an equal partner.”

You failed, for not dominating her enough, because women will not TELL you what you are doing wrong. They are so deceptive they don’t even know when they are fertile, for 14 hours a month.

Lacking traditional role models, we lack THE traditional conflict-avoidance mechanism of all social animals: UNQUESTIONED STATUS-DIFFERENCE AGREEMENTS. Instead of a display of a man’s willingness to either leave or kick a girl out (or in old religious books hit her with a stick), he has NO LEVERAGE except to end the relationship, but ALAS that leaves him older and broken hearted (confused).

What male has even the time to date more than one woman these days? Yet I played *that* game for a decade, and it WORKED, for the 17 years my latest domestic fling. But it was like chess, and the phrase “tight game” eventually eluded me. I got soft, focused on business, fell into monogamy and the PUSSY WHIPPING ATTEMPT of the new century hit both me and my business like an almost literal ton of bricks.

Since the tradition of male dominance has been ridiculed, suddenly couples must indeed play untrained chess together, every week of every year. EVERY decision becomes a debate. This drains the power of both the male and female.

Once you learn to keep a mate, you don’t see “red flags” in a new lover, for one in our lap is better than two in the bush, and for a woman, a truly hard man is good to find, so at times RED flags are the only signs we get, for the alternative is a universe of gray flags constructed of variously vibrating colorless atoms. That’s the world of playing it safe.

The Internet should have solved this, but ironically made it worse. Why? More like…HOW? By removing the need for a man to show testicular fortitude in order to say hi to a cute woman, surrounded by dorky men, in PUBLIC.

But the real problem with the lack of a traditional barbaric caveman taking home nubile (loyalty lacking) “booty” after a raid is that without clear ROLES to play, both men and women tend to revert to INFANTILISM in their relationships, meaning they act like babies who throw temper tantrums to HAVE THEIR SIMPLE THOUGHTS READ (sweetly warm feeding or butt wash), so they become VERY upset when their mate is unable to read their mind, and thus extremely confusing fights ensue, eventually turning into fights-about-fights, with no recallable topic when the sun comes up.

Therapy usually makes this worse because feminism and political correctness destroyed psychology, meaning any man who tries to assert even benevolent dictatorship is labeled as abusive and thus destroys the relationship, since only loss of temper is noted (people with testicles tend to do that) but EMOTIONAL ABUSE is not noted. As a rule though, now that I’m older, I state my theory that the CALM one in a relationship is usually the abusive one, meaning the CRAZY one.

May 16, 2008 - 12:16 am 69. Sparks:

ManFrom…

I think you’ve hit at least a few nails squarely on the the head.

Not entirely sure that she wanted me to dominate more, but maybe you’re right. In the end her criticism of me was that I was dominating, but I know that was just hogwash. Maybe she needed to justify her situation in a failed marriage and that’s the best she could come up with. But mostly I’m over trying to psychoanalyze her.

I’m totally buying in to your last paragraph. Days upon says of “silent treatment” and glares of disapproval if I reprimanded the kids for things. She would not discipline them. She’d wait until I did it, and then she would subsequently give in and be the good cop, always leaving me to being the bad cop and attempting to render my authority over them completely ineffective. She figured she’d win their affection and play her games with me. If I read her the riot act for what she did with the kids, I was then painted a “bad father” and told, “That’s not how things are done.”

Last week, my teen-aged daughter complained to me how when they are at Mom’s, she can’t make them do anything. She doesn’t even threaten anymore. They don’t take her seriously… I was told, “At least when you tell us we have to do something, you mean it and we know that we’re in trouble if we don’t.”

May 16, 2008 - 5:41 am 70. Brian P. Blake:

Men or women with a grain of common sense will be careful dating a divorcee’. People who need the kind of worthless advice presented here won’t benefit from it. Want a real relationship? Get to know everything about the other person before making a commitment, or be prepared for a big fat surprise. Surely that’s obvious.

May 16, 2008 - 6:20 am 71. yo:

The answer is simple boys. Go to the Phillipines and get yoself a woman that will appreciate not having to live in a grass hut anymore and will be eternally grateful.

There’s some good lookin ones there, too.-)

May 16, 2008 - 7:48 am 72. njartist:

@ManFrom
I state my theory that the CALM one in a relationship is usually the abusive one, meaning the CRAZY one.

Yep. Yet, also the one portrayed as the victim.

May 16, 2008 - 7:50 am 73. tony:

Pfft!, try dating a twice divorced woman who has the temerity to tell the unforunate sap that he lacks commitment! And how dae he have even the slightest of doubts
about her!. /sarcasm

May 16, 2008 - 8:05 am 74. transcended:

manfrom…

you are one sad sack of bitter.

women have long ago figured out that they are human beings who don’t need nor want to be “dominated, nor should they accept being dominated. That you assume that this is what is wrong with the world as you paint all women into this ridiculous group of supposed “man-eaters”, explain a hell of a lot about you and your relationship with females.

women are not the “enemy,” as your posts so blatantly scream. a little look inside yourself, perhaps with a therapist, will illuminate this for you. even you too, will be able to find happiness with real woman beyond the “nice and sexually attractive” “realdoll(tm),”(which btw are readily saleable in asian, caucasian, black, hispanic models. all of which lack brain, personality and vocal cords, perfect traditional domination situation.

May 16, 2008 - 8:09 am 75. Alternate Media Making Headway | The Anchoress:

[...] gamut – you’ve got your economics page, your campaign analysis, book reviews, world politics, advice columns, internet stuff, showbiz/political stuff, film reviews, and even [...]

May 16, 2008 - 8:12 am 76. Nila:

My boyfriend of 1.5 yrs has 2 kids and was divorced nearly 9 years ago. It’s working out fine for us! We both did the online dating thing before we met and have traded lots of horror stories. I don’t think the issues other people encounter are as much about divorce as about meanness and lack of wisdom.

Basically, my advice is this: Live honorably. If you want respect, treat other people with respect, including your boyfriend. Don’t attempt to manipulate anyone; it’s a waste of good energy. Get to know him, don’t rush, have fun, remember you’re not married and maintain some sensible boundaries. Let him deal with the ex, it’s not about you, stay out of it. Remember you’re not married. Did I say that already?

May 16, 2008 - 8:52 am 77. Larry:

Thanks Nila, that’s a sign of hope to hear a woman say that. That is all I want is a fair chance. I have tried to be everything and anything a couple of times but over time the everything and anything hill got too steep and I couldn’t keep climbing fast enough. No matter how long I wait between marriages the fact remains I want someone who will climb the hill with me hand-in-hand.

Nila you sound like you are willing to do that with your boyfriend so good on you. Keep it up.

I am pretty old to be still looking for that but I have a hard time saying I’m done and not looking anymore. The one dream I have had since real young keeps me inspired to keep-on keeping-on. It is extremely hard to find.

Good luck Nila stay on the track you’re on.

May 16, 2008 - 9:35 am 78. Maurice:

@memomachine

Re: Pride and Prejudice. Actually I think Joanna is correct. I believe you are confusing age with maturity. Mr and Mrs Bennet are the parents however their relationship is quite immature. Mr Bennet is a distant and uninvolved husband and Mrs Bennet is a frivolous and vain woman. True, Mr. and Mrs. Wickham are immature but their relationship mirrors that of Mr and Mrs Bennet in many respects and that is what I believe Joanna was referring to.

May 16, 2008 - 10:32 am 79. Mister Snitch!:

Thank you, Helen.

May 16, 2008 - 11:20 am 80. Jack:

If you’re divorced:

1. Entertain no preconceptions about the type of person you’d like to be with next.

2. Screw your brains out for a while.

May 16, 2008 - 12:04 pm 81. Davy:

I am a 45 yr-old single male who has never married(or “co-habited”), and I have no embarrassment in having that expectation of the person I would marry. That is one of the more obvious of the “101 Reasons I’m Not Married(Yet)”, as that narrows the selection down the point of infinitesimal. Fortunately, I don’t care, and it makes life SO MUCH less complicated! No “drama”, no in-laws, no nagging, no anniversary/birthday/Christmas/Mother’s Day/ Valentine’s Day/or Two-Week-of-Dating Anniversary, etc-to-infinity Presents, and no Child-support/alimony/divorce lawyer payments! Life is sweet…

May 16, 2008 - 12:39 pm 82. kbear:

Roger S you wrote:

I once knew a woman, as a casual friend (she has sort of disappeared), who must have run through around a dozen relationships during the one year period I knew her. She got upset with me when I mentioned that she had a habit of talking about each guy as THE catch, and then constantly raising her bar of expectations until he failed to jump over the next level. My take was that raising the bar was her way of making sure there was no way she would have to take the risk of a real relationship, but always had a great excuse why each person simply wasn’t right for her.

Which reminded me of something from a classic bit of Americana and got me wondering if American women weren’t always a little like this:

Marian:
Mama!
Do you think that I’d allow a common masher–
Now, really Mama!
I have my standards where men are concerned,
And I have no intention–

Mrs. Paroo:
I know all about your standards
And if you don’t mind my sayin’ so
There’s not a man alive
Who could hope to measure up to that blend’a
Paul Bunyan, Saint Pat and Noah Webster
You’ve got concocted for yourself outta your Irish imagination,
Your Iowa stubbornness, and your liberry fulla’ books!

I stumbled on this part of Pajamas Media from another site and as a recently divorced (for the second time) guy I am really getting a quick down and dirty serious education from Dr. Helen and all of the commenters on this site.

I have TRIED to be that oh-so-sensitive guy to please women and all I ever got for my troubles is to be treated like furniture. And yeah, a lot of the stereotypes are rooted in fact. I married an architect and that meant I had NO SAY in anything that went into the house. I’d come home and there would be new drapes in the bedroom. Not so much as a bye-your-leave for my opinion. And if I objected! Oh my. I have not the expertise or style savvy to have an opinion that need be taken seriously.

And she always hated my guns and my love of shooting. Resented every penny I spent on any of my hobbies. Couldn’t question her spending. And yeah, the movie thing too. Sleepless in Seattle over anything I’d like – ALL the time.

But here’s the thing. We got a quickie Iowa divorce that happened too quickie for her good. She has the house and everything in it but Ms. Genius forgot one little detail – getting me to sign a quit claim deed! She’s in for a big surprise when she tries to sell the house! And yes, I want it in cash. So sometimes they do make mistakes that even things out a little.

But God yes, I am a GOOD MAN – I have worked all my life and now own my own small business. I did the VAST majority of the housework, yardwork, cooking, cleaning and shopping. Yeah, yeah, I know, what a sap. I would have done it to the end of time if just once I would have gotten a few words of support and encouragement. That’s all. But that was something she could NEVER give.

It’s simple. I want to find a woman I’d be willing to take a bullet for. And I don’t want to be treated like furniture. Is that so much to ask?

I’m probably violating the Cardinal rule by getting back into the dating pool too soon. But I found a woman online who is Russian from birth (and 2/3rd of her life was spent there), is a molecular biologist and loves James Bond movies. Can you blame me for taking a shot?

May 16, 2008 - 12:53 pm 83. Believer:

Sparks:

I’m really saddened for your family. You seem to be a man who’s able to be sensitive to the needs of his children. The children will never be “good with things,” as I’m sure you know deep down.

Yours, it sounds like, was one of opposites attracting. In many ways I think that can be wonderful. And, I’ve often wondered, if it might have been part of God’s plan. One partner, while appreciating the strength (or weakness) of the other, can also provide “checks” on the other’s behavior. The two become one, adding strength where needed, or softness when it’s required.

None of us is perfect; but if we understand one another, with communication and love – and a good dose of humor – our children will see two people successfully working through difficult situations. And there can hardly be a better gift we give them as they go forward in life to face their own challenges.

I wish all of you well. And there is no shame – or heartbreak – in living alone all one’s life. You can still love unconditionally.

May 16, 2008 - 1:10 pm 84. Harry Schell:

The articles read like the last few years of my marriage. Whew. Still, I was going to stick it out, made my oaths and not going back on them, so I was cashiered.

I have baggage. Sometimes I don’t deal with it so well. My kids are grown and living far away, and I have, details omitted, no other family.

I have been dating a divorced lady for a couple of years. We lived together for a time but now are apart, friends. She had issues, I had issues and we both took a very adult approach. She is happier doing what she is doing and that makes me happier, if things get too quiet around my little abode. And I know this one was not all my fault. Neither was the other, but I find it easy to focus on my failures then.

I learned I cannot make all the things I want in this life happen. If I can’t find the best one for me, I look for the best in who I find and usually make do alright.

Lots of people are far worse off than me in so many ways, it is not right to whine too much about what I wish was different. If I am not really so happy, I am blessed abundantly.

I am going to coast for awhile, focus on a few things to do well at and enjoy. Getting remarried or a heavy relationship isn’t one of them. There is yet fun to be had.

May 16, 2008 - 4:02 pm 85. Believer:

I think being alone can be a blessing. Especially if it’s used in the most constructive way: to grow spiritually, and perhaps heal emotionally.

Most of us are loving one another in our own wounded ways. Some are better at it than others. Some, sadly, are not able to love at all. If we look beyond our own pain to see what the other is experiencing – or has experienced – we can love as we’ve never loved before.

But it is getting to that point where we see the other’s need – and not our own – that is the hard part. And it usually takes One greater than ourselves to help us see it.

I would encourage everyone to take time to discover just how much you’re loved by the One who has put you here – who knows what you’re going through this very moment – and watch how His hand is on you throughout the rest of your lives.

And then, I promise you, though others may think you’re alone, in your heart you’ll know you’re not. In fact, you will never know a greater love. Even if He brings you that one you’ve been hoping for.

May 16, 2008 - 5:35 pm 86. Isabel:

kbear You shoot? Are you going to Camp Perry? Isabel

May 16, 2008 - 5:45 pm 87. John F Not Kerry:

As a child of divorce, I am continually saddened to see marriages crumble, for whatever reason. Men can be assholes, women can be bitches, and both can be something less. Ultimately, while it takes two to have a marriage, it only takes one to wreck it. Neither men nor women have a corner on that market.

Even as a happily married man, I see the seeds of marital destruction in myself. If I nurture those things that lead me away from faithfulness to my wife, I could end up like my own father, having my wife leave me. My wife could just up and leave me through no fault of mine, just like it happened to a friend a few months ago.

This society needs successful marriages. Kids need to see that lifelong love and commitment are possible, even if it takes hard work. If you are divorced, be careful to keep becoming the best person you can be, for yourself, not just for someone else. Find others who are striving to do the same, and marry them.

Please take this as from someone who still bears the scars of his parents’ divorce 30 years later. It’s not about guilt, but about change (not the Obama kind). Let the adult children get healed before they wreck any more lives, and find those who have made it through bruised but better.

May 16, 2008 - 8:32 pm 88. ElvenPhoenix:

I can’t say how many times I started to comment, then changed what I was going to say.

My first husband cheated and wanted to be with his girlfriend – then when she broke up with him he “wanted his family back”. We were married 5 years.

My second husband portrayed himself as something 180 degrees from what he was. In spite of his dishonesty we were married for over 10 years, as I did not want my second child to go through what my first experienced. Naturally, everything that was wrong in our marriage was/is my fault. And he is the one that is constantly dragging us back into court. Which is the worst possible thing one can do to a child – my younger daughter suffers from depression and has been under a therapist’s care for the past two years due to all the “pressure”, even though my ex and I have 50/50.

I’m on my third marriage – and this time I think we’ve got it right. I was the one with more baggage – my second ex is not easy to deal with. My husband has three kids and he and his ex at least have a working “kids first” relationship. The only issue there is that his ex has never once actually spoken to me, even though we have been married for 3 years.

I’m sure that there were things I could have done in my second marriage to save it – but I don’t think those things would have been worth the sacrifice of who I am. And I have to say, when my divorce was finalized, I was THRILLED. I had mourned my marriage years earlier.

I absolutely adore my husband and try to show him frequently how special I think he is. He is a wonderful man, fabulous father, and I am the most fortunate woman in the world for having him in my life. Do we have issues? Of course we do. But we can at least agree to disagree. And I can’t tell you what a relief it is to be married to someone who can understand that just because I disagree with his opinion doesn’t mean I don’t love him.

Everyone has baggage. It’s how you deal with it.

May 16, 2008 - 10:31 pm 89. ManFromSexCity:

transcended:

“manfrom…you are one sad sack of bitter.”

Oh! I understand now. If I wasn’t a complete romantic saint, my multi-year relationship failures were ALL my fault, BECAUSE I AM A MAN. Sorry, Mistress, I made a bad mistake to state a strong opinion.

But something has BROKEN in the traditional battle of the sexes, that I, in a philosophical sense, well, am sort of INTERESTED in. So if you a better solution than conflict avoidance, bring it on!

“Women have long ago figured out that they are human beings who don’t need nor want to be “dominated, nor should they accept being dominated.”

I disagree, since it’s mostly groups of FEMALES that involve an “alpha” leader who is a cute “trust fund” kid, who gathers other girls around them as soldiers in the battle of the sexes. My word choice insulted you, I guess. O.K. I’ll restate it: “Leader/Supporter”. Better?

By the way, you can capitalize the word ‘woman’ when it starts a sentence.

May 16, 2008 - 10:40 pm 90. kbear:

Isabel:

You mean to watch, right? I’m not that good anymore but I did get my expert marksman badge at Camp Perry when I was in the Army Reserve. Lessee, that would have been 1989. Running my business gives me precious little time to bust caps anymore but I’d like to get out there some time and take it all in. Something about the smell of cordite on the range that brings back a lot of great memories (guy thing?). I’ll have to check the schedule to see if I can get out on a free Sunday sometime this summer.

May 17, 2008 - 5:09 am 91. Nila:

Larry:
I went back and read all your posts. Do not give up hope! I nearly did before I met my honey. We’re both in our mid-40s, btw.

This is much easier to say now than it was for me to hear before I met him: Remember what you want (hand-in-hand friend), remember who you are (a good man), don’t settle.

I found a blog post that was inspirational to me during the Shark Pool dating phase. I doubt that I can post a link here, so google “Cheerleaders, chumps and dragonslayers.” It was written as advice to young women, but it applies to men and women of any age.

“So, to those young girls on the cusp of womanhood, take this advice for what it is worth:

Be virtuous, and find yourselves a dragonslayer. I am not saying be a prude. Virtue retains its value better than either virginity or popularity. Virtue is what cannot be savaged by the years, as beauty can. Virtue is desired by those worth desiring.

Dragonslayers are men of virtue and they seek the same of their women. Because they practice virtue, they are quite adept at knowing it when they see it. The same is for you; in practicing virtue, you shall be able to know it when you see it. Chumps are not dragonslayers, they are chumps. Chumps have no character, no virtue. They are a waste of the same in you.

So, be virtuous, and find yourselves a dragonslayer.”

May 17, 2008 - 6:13 am 92. Sparks:

Believer, thanks for the kind words. Makes a big difference in my recovery to hear encouraging words.

To many of the other commenters here, I think you think you’ve got it figured out. I don’t think that there is any one answer, since we’re talking about the pairing of two people in the relationship, each having wildly variable characteristics. The experience I conveyed may not be unique, but it’s not all that standard either.

That being said, I enjoyed reading most of them because any one of this situations I’m likely to find myself on one end or the other if I’m not careful.

May 17, 2008 - 8:20 am 93. John:

Divorced men are need? Oh, I guess so…I was so damned needy when I made all the money, tried to keep us afloat, cooked, cleaned, did the yard work, did all the maintenance on the cars, and all I wanted was an end to the smoking and drinking. Damn! I was so needy! How selfish of me! I guess I was even so selfish when I set my balls on the table to get a vasectomy when we had no children! Now I’m dealing with that post divorce! How needy of me!

May 17, 2008 - 8:24 am 94. Isabel:

kbear. I will be at Camp Perry for the first week of Bullseye pistol, and at the big regional at Canton the weekend of the 4th of July. I was an active duty Army officer from 80-87. Canton is the tougher competition. You should shoot again. I have met a great group of people and my scores are coming up. Admittedly shooting is not a great place to meet woman, but for me, a women who finds it much easier to be friends with men, it has been heaven. Isabel.

May 17, 2008 - 8:58 am 95. House of Eratosthenes:

[...] Dr. Helen takes on the double standard. One of the most enduring and vivid ones we (somehow) still tolerate. Are you single and dating a divorced man or woman? If so, there is some really different dating advice out there depending on whether you are a male or female. I read this MSN article on “How to Date a Divorced Man” and then an article “How to Date a Divorced Woman” by the same author, Chelsea Kaplan. What’s interesting, and kind of disturbing, is how understanding this relationship writer tells men to be of divorced women, while advising women that the slightest difficulty or inconvenience posed by divorced men should send them packing. [...]

May 17, 2008 - 9:05 am 96. kbear:

Isabel: you’re going to be busy in July! I’d like to know about the Canton meet – rather than derailing thread, free free to e-mail me at kbear@who.net

May 17, 2008 - 12:35 pm 97. Joe P.:

Something missing so far in this discussion.

Rule Nr 1: (Men) Do NOT remarry. (”Fool me once its your fault, fool me twice….”)

If you must violate rule nr 1, then do it SE Asia, i.e., Philippines, Thailand, Viet Nam, where it is still legal to be male, where men are respected, where you can be with a woman less than half your age and nobody raises an eyebrow. If you don’t have enough monthly income to live there, then just visit once a year. The plane fare and prostitutes for a month are STILL cheaper than wining and dining some over-indulged cow back home.

May 18, 2008 - 4:04 pm 98. gordo:

All I know, as a divorced professional guy, is that I would rather date a divorced woman than a woman who has stayed single. There’s more in common in terms, primarily, of having a family and knowing how tough it is to keep a marriage cookin’ along. Having said that, and I think its an age thing (I am in my 50’s and date women in their 40’s and early 50’s), after a few dates the woman starts making plans for the both of us leading to… you know what. In most cases they are pretty aggressive about the whole thing. I don’t care much for that – I’m not needy. Better to have a mistress type girlfriend with tamped down expectations of a full commitment. I know, sounds low, but its a reality check and they are more fun than a woman who is angling for a commitment right out of the gate. Its frightening and once she thinks she has you the sex worsens – a sure sign. Stay in the saddle boys – giddyup.

May 19, 2008 - 1:00 am 99. Larry:

NILA,
You have probably moved on and won’t read this but still the same – thank you for the encouragement, I appreciate the thought. I hope and wish the best for you. If ever you have further comments my contact info is lranders1948@yahoo.com. Thanks to all the rest of you posters too, I learned a lot from these posts. I do hope things change and men and women both work together to stay in love. It is magical when in love.
Larry

May 19, 2008 - 10:05 am 100. caved1ver:

Why are women responsible for filing for over 70% of all divorces? Because they CAN. Thanks to chivalrous “secular progressive” male politicians & judges, women have the majority of civil, reproductive, marital, divorce, child-custody, and child-support rights in America. Reality: women are the biggest abusers of “no fault divorces. Why? Female trial lawyers invented “No Fault Divorce.” Additionally, gender feminists have taught women-children how to use a paternal legal system & children (= financial assets) to turn their ex-husbands into peons in perpetuity. Why exit a marriage IOT find one’s self without having an ex-husband to pay all of the bills? I have seen this occur several times in my personal experience. I had a female Academy classmate (O-4) who committed adultery with an E-8 and then attempted to commit paternity fraud on her husband. What eventually happened? Nothing: Academy-educated women don’t exploit their authority & engage in group relations w/ subordinates. She later divorced her husband & got the house, kids etc. after making unsubstantiated “domestic violence” charges. Big surprise.

May 20, 2008 - 2:17 pm 101. Juice Mag:

I guess you will have to see, does he have children if so, are you going to get along? It’s quite complicated to date a divorced, not saying that it’s a bad idea, just that there needs to be a lot of considerations!

Jun 9, 2008 - 9:25 pm 102. sdl:

rufus:
I am completely confound and appalled that listing you are raising your children yourself is a negative on a profile!
I am a woman, and I cannot imagine a more upstanding or responsible act; not to mention loving.

And any woman, childless or with, that thinks a child in distress should NOT come home if remotely feasible is…is…oh, a horrid enough word just won’t come to mind!

You children are your LIFE, they are your focus, and if they need you that is WHAT YOU DO- it’s called being a parent.

I made it clear when I divorced the first time that it was a package deal, me and my children; AND, I made it clear that my children’s best interests would always take precedence- even over MY wants and needs if required- as being a parent was my first job and my deepest commitment, and if they couldn’t agree to that completely to just walk away now.

Sadly, I have discovered that men are more than capable of putting up a front and feigning the commitment and involvement for quite some years IF they think it will get them what they REALLY want- or if they think what you are saying is not REALLY how it will shake out.

And then they resent YOU for not making THEM the first and ONLY priority in your life! Hello?

I see no reason to subject myself to the whole relationship/marriage issue; just too distrusting of men at this point, and don’t expect them to be real and honest vs playing to get what they want from you.

Jun 16, 2008 - 9:38 pm 103. Lynn:

The advice given makes absolute sense to me. This is because divorced men tend to replace while divorced women tend to grieve. Consequently, those dating these individuals are dealing with differing needs.
Divorcing or divorced men tend to want to resume having a relationship wherein the little women provides sex, helps him with domestic duties, and is a potential mother to his children.(Studies show men tend to relegate child-care responsibilites to a wife.) Then too, wives tend to be cheaper solution to his needs than hiring a prostitute, a maid, and a nanny.)
Divorcing or divorced women, on the other hand, can always find a male willing to have sex, thus eliminating the need for a prostitute. On the other hand, she is looking for romance. Since romance requires a slower approach, and concern for her feelings, the author of the article suggested the building of a relationship. (She typically doesn’t need a maid or a nanny since she usually has an abundance of these skills that she usually will have developed throughout her first marriage.) What she usually does want is the same thing a women has wanted since the beginning of time, a protector and provider. She will get a better picture of his ability to fulfill this role through dating. Dating will also help her get over the grieiving process.

Sep 8, 2008 - 2:15 pm 104. Brad:

Lynn:

Lots of stereotyping there.

My wife of 25 years is divorcing me because I don’t “respect” her – with “respect” being defined as “agreeing with her / doing what she wants” 100% of the time.

She tried to force one of our kids – one of our adopted kids – out of the house 5 years ago, when he was in 7th grade. She didn’t want him in the house because he didn’t ‘respect’ her – pointing out that her obvious rejection of him might be a factor was taken as disloyal. The fact that he was undiagnosed/untreated bipolar until 22 months ago is irrelevant – I should have banished him, regardless of the impact it would’ve had on him, because she didn’t want him around.

Last year, she disowned her own daughter for having the nerve to ask me to intercede when communications broke down between mother & daughter. I was supposed to punish my daughter for “going behind her back” – I was supposed to disown her as well.

My wife is extraordinarily self-centered & she has no capacity for empathy. We wound up adopting because something happened when my birthmother (I’m adopted too) was carrying me that left me unable to produce sperm. We learned about this 22 years ago, after I had a testicular biopsy (not the most painful surgery I’ve ever had, but it ain’t beanbag); my wife says she has “22 years of pain” to overcome … and confided in one of our many counselors that once she learned I couldn’t get her pregnant, her attitude was “Why have sex? I can’t get pregnant.”

Seven years ago, she started stockpiling cash in an account in her name alone. My dad gave us both cash gifts every year – she put her gift into her account, telling me she was saving it for “us”, that my dad had told her to save the money “for our future.”

Guess what account is funding her divorce attorney?

Guess who she thinks should pay all the debt?

I agree to some extent with an earlier comment – we both have our share of the blame for the current state of the relationship. I made plenty of mistakes, not the least of which was buying into the adage “If momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy (so make momma happy!).” Most guys expect their wives to be emotional, upset, etc. – we’re “taught” we should be understanding and accommodating, that we should “try to make the little woman happy.”

IMO, that’s a big mistake – the man who treats his wife like she’s a little kid to be humored & coddled, that it’s asking too much to expect her to act like a grown-up when facing challenges, disappointments, etc. digs his own grave.

I married a very pretty doctor’s daughter. Guys who pursued her did what she wanted to do because they wouldn’t get a “next” date if they didn’t. She was taught to care what society thought of her – I think someone found some way to inject Emily Post intravenously – and to base her self-esteem on getting the right kind of attention from the right kind of people. Quite honestly, she expected the “dating” stage of the relationship to go on forever.

I didn’t see it at all for a long, long time. When I eventually began to recognize the symptoms, I still wasn’t able to appreciate their ramifications. By the time push came to shove, I was full blown co-dependent.

It isn’t “over” yet – we’ve not gotten to the point in the process where I have had the “No, really, THAT’S what you think you’re entitled to?” moment. I can see it coming – my wife is VERY materialistic …. she thinks its horrible that she’s having to use her divorce slush fund to pay her bills (the debts, of course, are MY responsibility).

Now, what will I be looking for in a future relationship?

A woman who (a) likes herself, is comfortable in her own skin & accepts responsibility for her own happiness; (b) likes me for who I am just as I am; (c) wouldn’t dream of changing who she is to try to please me or of asking me to change who I am to try to please her; (d) wants to be included in my world and welcomes me into hers; and (e) is capable of loving and accepting love.

And if she has kids she loves ferociously, GREAT, FANTASTIC, WONDERFUL.

Oct 23, 2008 - 3:19 pm 105. Clarissa:

After reading all these postings all I have to say is that I think it is sad that we are raising kids in such a messed up world where relationships seem to be falling apart right and left. I do agree that society has shifted the power a little too far to one sex, women have too much power when it comes to divorce, custody of children, rights to a mans money assets and such. I just keep thinking that it is sad the two sexes can not treat each other with more respect and take responsibility for their mistakes. I do think that oprah does seem to encourage women to think that they are victims of their relationships. However if women would get some balls and take responsibiltiy for their opinions and beliefs then maybe they wouldn’t be the “victim”. Some women definitely have the tendency to bury their feelings and be passive in their relationships. which does no one any good becuase then they eventually explode and blame their partners for everything. If you don’t want your husband to belittle you then stand up for yourself. I have played games of manipulation and you know where it got me: nowhere. People need to learn to be honest about themselves and their feelings. They need to be honest with themselves about their own failings and flaws too. I think both parties can be to blame in a divorce. Every situation is different but it does take two to make a relationship-most peopel however just see relationships as an all you can eat buffet. It is all about them and what they can get out of the relationship. I think it is sad these postings by men talking about all these woman that screw them over. It is sad that they lose their trust of woman-let me assure you that not every woman is out to get what they can from you. Some woman honestly are sane and want a companion in their lives. Some women know what their flaws are and know that a relationship is about seeking resolution with your partner and compromise.
You can’t, and shouldn’t always get what you want-becasue you are not always right. I am dating a man who is divorced: he got married when he was young. I will admit that before I started dating this man, I viewed divorced men as tainted and assumed that there must be something wrong with them. However now after knowing him and meeting his son, I realize the reason I care about him and think he is so wonderful is because he loves his son so much. His son should be his number one and any woman that has an issue with that is not worth chasing. Both men and women have flaws but instead of trying to change one another and having ridiculous expectations of what a relationship should be like, people need to seek to understand the other person and understand how they tick and work and communicate. I am seeking to learn more about myself and improving my self and my character so I can bring that to the relationship. If you haven’t dealt with your shit then you don’t belong in a relationshio in my opinion. Sadly I don’t think most people belong in relationships. Most people don’t want to take responsibilties for their own behavior. What I have noticed is that lots of people like to blame their childhood, their parents, their past, other people for their bad behavior instead of saying hey, shit happened to me in the past, and I can still choose to live life as a good human and treat others with respect. People just need to grow up!

Nov 21, 2008 - 3:32 pm 106. VINCEN OBINNA.A:

pls i want a good divorced woman to marry

Mar 8, 2009 - 6:59 am 107. K T:

Hey, I just stumbled upon this. God do I ever agree!! I am amazed at all of the responses, maybe somone should start marketing to this demographic; men who have been screwed over by this pro-female machine called self-help!!!

My story, condensed. I met a great girl and we hit it off 9 years ago. We moved in together at year 2 of our relationship. Things were really good until about year 6 of our relationship, when I nabbed her having an emotional affair with my friend, my friend, nonetheless who I got in crap for going to strip bars with, who after I stopped going due to her concerns continued to repeatedly try to drag me there and I refused to go based on the grounds that my SO didn’t feel comfortable with it. Year 7 or so we got engaged. Year 8 we were in big trouble, she separated from me in year 8 and broke off the engagement, then fully sealed the deal on our 9 year anniversary.

Sure I made mistakes. But at the beginning of year 8, she quipped to me that she just “wasnt happy any more”. As the ever devoted fiancee, I of course tried to do everything in my power to get her happy again. I tried going to places I didnt really want to be, I tried improving myself, I tried sweet gifts, romantic evenings, and at every turn I was sabotaged; even Valentines day, when I was beating around the bush trying to prod her to figure out what she wanted as a gift or what she’d like to do, I found out that she had taken off her engagement ring and “was confused” (talk about a ruin to Valentines!).

We went to counselling, and it became a huge littany of gripes about me. I wasnt doing this, I didnt like that, I did this, I did that, SHE wasn’t happy. The counsellor never once corrected her, that maybe happiness comes from within, never actually told her that if you choose to be happy, you will be. I’d come home to laundry lists of complaints sometimes, from everything like whether or not I wore fitted T-shirts to the kinds of sports that I played. I was like, come on, I’m just being me and enjoying life, why can’t you just relax a little and do the same??

Well when she left me, she did so abruptly, when I saw a passage in a book she left on the coffee table and she was writing about having so much passion in her life since she met “Greg”. I confronted her about it, calmly, because I was still having trust issues about the emotional affair a few years earlier. Of course, it was “creative writing” and meant nothing. I woke up the next day after being quite angry about it and she had packed her things and left a note.

Not to go into every nitty gritty detail, what I found the most hurtful, shameful, dispicable thing about women and the counselling and self help profession in general was the absolute sheer stupidity of the level of support she received from everyone, friends, family, other women, the counsellor, everyone female.

She was “finally doing things for her”, she was “freeing herself”. She was sleeping around quite a bit (12 guys in 7 months!) and she was “exploring her sexuality, having wonderful experiences”. She was “finally doing things for her for a change”, everyone was so damn “proud of her” for “taking control of her life”. Her counsellor told her to “not tell him where you live for your own safety, set boundaries”. I was trying to talk to her, to try to work things out, and she kept throwing this mumbo jumbo crap in my face, “I dont want to talk about this right now. These are my boundaries”. I mean, my fiancee of nearly 9 years had just left me, and the counselling profession was encouraging her that she didn’t even owe me any kind of an explanation.

Now what I found so dispicable about this whole group-think mentality surrounding women right now, was that if I had dumped her and broken off the engagement because I decided that I didn’t want to be in a committed relationship and I wanted to bang a different chick every few weeks, that I changed my mind about marriage after all that time, I would be a jerk. A loser. A deadbeat, a slimebucket. Even my guy friends would be raking me over the coals for breaking this “poor girl’s heart”, for leading her into expecations that I wanted to marry her, then shattering her heart into a million peices.

The double standard is real, it is pervasive, and it is literally the most horrible thing to be a guy and go through it. As guys we dont really talk about our feelings to other guys. We always have felt more comfortable talking about those things with women. It was our father who gave us the spanking, but our mother who soothed us when we were scared, its just a normal thing.

But when all of the women around you support someone who just broke your heart in a huge way, you are left with the feeling that you’re totally been thrown off the cruise ship of happy life without a lifejacket and the boat has just turned the engines onto overdrive.

I have done a lot of reading about this whole thing. Women used to be chastised for having meaningless sex or cheating — now they are celebrating this very same thing, slapping eachother on the back for it!

There’s a book called Eat, Love, Pray which is a wildfire hit with women these days, it’s about a woman who dumps her husband, leaves the kids behind, jumps on a plane to Italy and sleeps with various men and eats great food, then goes to India and toys with their culture for a while, after a year or two decides to go back home and be single. The book isn’t the cause but rather a symptom of womens’ values gone horribly wrong.

If you were to reverse the book (as one blogger did) and have a man leave his wife and kids behind to go to italy and sleep with younger sexy women and drink booze, then go to a party zone he’d be a loser deadbeat and the book would be pointed to by the same women who celebrate it as a stellar example of what women should do would petition to have the book banned, or at least stage public burnings and protest the publisher. Rather, because it’s a woman at the centre of the book, it’s touted as a “liberating experience” for the seemingly oppressed woman who had a great career and a non-abusive husband and what was probably a fairly regular family life.

At the root of all of this which is how I bring this all back to my own experience; my fiancee was taught by her counsellor (no joke, she sent me an email to this effect) that her getting engaged to me was her merely telling me what I wanted to hear to keep the peace (she had actually been dropping hints to me for 4 months before I went out and bought the ring), that the reason she ended up having an emotional affair was because she was not getting her needs fulfilled at home (sound familliar?), and that the cause of some of her medical woes like hemmhoroids and gastric ulcers were because of the stress of living with me and “not being happy”.

I mean come on. I’m a nice guy, I never cheated on her, I cooked most of the time, picked up the slack around the house, cooked her breakfast in bed once every few weeks, never once raised a hand to her or threatened her in any way; I was living my life in bliss that I had such a great woman in my life and I didn’t really want to change a thing about her. I even lost 60 lbs after I caught her in the affair, and I’ve been in great shape ever since, down to ideal BMI.

Now I’m single (while not technically, I could almost be considered divorced due to the length of our relationship) left picking up the peices and trying to get out into the dating scene and I’m seeing women who are lying about being married, cheating on their husbands (even trying to invite me to stay the night and meet their 9 and 10 year old kids!!), and the ones who aren’t lying or married are expecting that on a first date off an online dating site we’re going to have this “magical connection”.

Women have been taught these days that the world should come to them on a golden platter, that they can work a good job and make money but that men should still pay for everything, women are independent and can make their own decisions but men should always be the ones to make the first moves on everyting. Men who move too fast just want sex, men who move to slow are mice. Men who call too often are needy, men who don’t call often enough are non-committal.

Women have been taught rediculous, unreachable expectations — and it’s all due to one thing: “post-feminism”. The feminist movement did many great things for women, in gaining them equal rights. Now they have it, but the feminist movement, once their goal was acheived did not see this as a positive reason for their demise; the feminist movement went much further than that and started teaching women that not only were they equal to men, but they were better in all respects, more deserving of everything.

In the process what they did was completely destroy womens’ sense of values, (marriage is a prison like sentence, women can sleep around too and it’s ok), but it actually now I beleive risks the entire institution of a family.

I don’t beleive that this is all neccesarily womens’ fault, I think that women are wandering through life these days perpetually confused because who they’re “supposed to be” has become such a meaningless, selfish, drifting, shallow role. They’re supposed to do anything and everything, all for the “experience”.

Makes me sick. Sorry for the novel, I’m glad someone is talking about this kind of stupid bias. I’m dating now and this pervasive new-woman mentality of the late 2000s is causing me to lose hope that I’ll ever be able to meet a nice girl and start a family before I’m too old.

Because the problem is, to have a nice type family with a mother and a father who stick together and raise their kids together, requires a woman to be in the picture. And women are being taught right now that to be in that kind of situation, is a sin and a waste of their lives. Like raising children and having a nice marriage is so freaking bad.

Mar 15, 2009 - 10:40 pm 108. christy:

I am seperated from my husband due to finding them in our bed having intercourse at 3 mths pregnant with our 2nd child. Our first child we both had custody taken by the state of ks. Well due to me not working due to high risk preg. and not having a place to live of my own cause i was staying with friends due to the disloyalty..and he moved this gal in soon after catching them. plus got her preg too when i was about 5 mths along make a long story short he got custody of our first son due to the circumstances…and once the state stepped out of the pict at 4 days after delivery i was gettin him everyday while the father worked his full time job from 5 am to 5 pm after awhile i asked his father to help bring diapers at least for him due to me not working and he was i didnt think it was right to be my responsibility to provide for both children and he let me have him so he didnt have to pay for daycare neway the list of this drama gets longer and longer my only ? is how do i prevent taking my frustrations and anger by yelling at trenton which is our son and its like i feel i am taking it out on him by yelling at him screaming at him when he does something he isnt suppose to do please respond to me as quick as you can if you have the awnser my infant is now 4 mths and i see the hurt in trentons eyes here latley like i have abandoned him and he tells me i hate him help…

Sep 22, 2009 - 12:29 am

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