284 Comments

1. Ed Wallis:

Correction: should read “boyfriend” not “boyfreind.”

Jul 14, 2008 - 3:12 am 2. Sheila:

Rubbish. This is a load of crap. Stop taking it all so seriously. The likelihood is that those married women have about a dozen single female friends looking to be set up with a nice, successful single man.

The reason behind all the questions is because the married woman is most likely trying to ascertain whether the single guy is single because of life’s circumstances, or whether he is some kind of sociopath.

Apologies if this was already outlined in the article – I couldnt be bothered reading after the first page.

Jul 14, 2008 - 4:44 am 3. J:

Sheila sez:

“The reason behind all the questions is because the married woman is most likely trying to ascertain whether the single guy is single because of life’s circumstances, or whether he is some kind of sociopath.”

———

Isn’t there a third possibility – like, uhh – that he doesn’t want to get married?

Your assumptions show a lot about how you think.

Second point: Yes, I think this is threatening to some women. If more and more men refuse to marry, they may have to friggin’ get a real job if they want money. Horrible.

Jul 14, 2008 - 5:08 am 4. Good Grief:

Sheila: “I couldnt be bothered reading after the first page.” And we should listen to you . . . why?

Jul 14, 2008 - 5:38 am 5. Jane Austin:

“it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.”

Jul 14, 2008 - 6:41 am 6. BlogDog:

Anyone who finds that “most women scare the crap out of me” will almost certainly never marry as his available pool of marriageable women (single, straight and non-scary) will be vastly restricted.
Stop being scared. Real men aren’t scared by women. And in my experience, women look for real men.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:00 am 7. Chris:

I suspect that women have an innate desire to see all men married off and quietly domesticated, much like men desire to see breasts. You can’t explain it; it just is.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:02 am 8. Locomotive Breath:

The likelihood is that those married women have about a dozen single female friends looking to be set up with a nice, successful single man.

Bingo. Let me translate: “bagged” is dragged to the altar and “tagged” is a ring on his finger. A not-previously-married guy who is not otherwise totally screwed up is marriage gold for her buddies.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:03 am 9. Rob:

Maybe they think you are some sort of experiment. Who knows. But I’m a guy who got married late (30), and our peer group is definately moving on. At this point most of our peers have newborns, and we’re not even ‘in the market’ planning to have kids within the next year (at least i’m not). So, its something about peer groups and keeping up with jones, but there is a definate feeling ‘by age X you should have a steady gf’, by 2+ years engaged 3+ years married, 4-5+ years first kid, etc etc. The social pressure never really ends. At first it was ‘you need to get a gf’. Then it was ‘you need to marry that girl’. Now it’s ‘When are the kids coming’. Just ignore them and do what makes you feel happy.

If you are single at 47, you are in a very small minority. Not wrong, just that people probably don’t know how to deal with you. My gut reaction would say either you are a mass murderer or gay, and that’s a horrid thing to think, but there it is. The second reaction is perhaps you just didn’t find the right person. But at that age, i think most people are thinking, what’s wrong with that guy. There is a huge stigma against singleness at that age.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:10 am 10. Mister Snitch!:

“Bagged and tagged” means dead (body bag) and in the morgue (toe tag for ID). You do explore the damnedest subjects, Helen, things men might ponder, but certainly keep to themselves. They’d joke about it, though. Here’s a classic: “You never know what happiness is until you’re married. And then it’s too late.”

Never thought I’d see a woman ‘go there’ as often or as fearlessly as you do. I can’t see YOU being intimidated by single men.

I think the best defense against intrusions on one’s marriage is to love the opposite sex – and your spouse most of all. Of course, that makes one vulnerable and open to all kinds of attack and pain. As we get older, we look for ways to shield ourselves from pain, and love is often the first casualty. Then the problems start.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:13 am 11. Stacy:

I’m not quite sure where “Jim” is coming from — as a recently married man with several married and single friends, I haven’t found married women to be particularly allergic to single men, though the comments above are right that the singles are often subjected to matchmaking.

What’s definitely true is that husbands are discouraged and sometimes banned from going out for “boys night” with single male friends. My sense is that even though most wives understand perfectly well that their husbands have free will and aren’t bound to cheat just because there are single women in the room, there is some sort of primal gut feeling that easily overpowers the intellect on that score…

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:18 am 12. Mister Snitch!:

While writing my comment, I see that another commenter has explained ‘bagged and tagged’ as an analogy for marriage, as opposed to my literal meaning. He/she may be right. On the other hand, some married women may indeed simply wish happily single men would just go away never to return. Which is closer to MY interpretation.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:19 am 13. Gymrat:

My advise to the letter writer? Grow a pair.

Single, late 40s, here. I get the occasional inquiry from married female friends about my marital status (or lack thereof) and about whether I’m interested in getting married. I respond, politely. I’ve got no problem with anyone asking me a question. I do have a problem with follow-up questions that smack of an interrogation, but a single question? Why sweat that? People shouldn’t be so sensitive.

I treat the question as conversational muzak, sound meant to fill the silence. So take the conversation in a direction you’d rather take it and don’t allow one (potentially) innocent question to turn into an interrogation. Hence, my advice: grow a pair.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:20 am 14. Stosh2:

Relentless grilling on personal issues seems to be the current rather poor substitute for polite conversaion these days. It’s very off-putting under any circumstances. If the inquisitor does not respond to a bemused look or a raised eyebrow, I turn the question around and ask in a low conspiritorial voice with a drop of lechery : “Since we are sharing personal details, Madame, how old are YOU? What do you do in the afternoons when your husband is at work?” Even the thickest skinned old cow will get the message – or will be so flustered as to lose her train of thought.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:25 am 15. Bob:

I’m 62, single, not gay, and never married. I have to agree with Sheila and with Dr. Helen’s altruistic interpretation. They’re simply sizing the guy up as a match for one of their friends. It’s what married women do. To be honest, they’re probably much less concerned with the happiness of the guy than they are with their friend’s happiness, but that’s natural enough.

What I’ve seen more often is that some married males seem threatened by a single guy who establishes any kind of social rapport with their wife. Maybe they think I’m out to take their wife away. Nothing could be further from the truth. But, much more often than that, I’ve seen married males deeply envious of my single status.

So, on the evidence, I think the single guy poses more perceived problems to married males than to married females. The women do try to establish whether you’re some kind of nut, though.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:25 am 16. Peter S:

As a now single male divorced out of a 22 year marriage,
I agree with Dr. Helen’s analysis.

I’m in the first stages of a relationship. I’ve
searched out a woman who can be a true best friend.
That friendship will serve as the foundation for a
marriage.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:35 am 17. Mwalimu Daudi:

As someone who married very late (42) my difficulty was never with married women pressuring me into getting married by steering young women into my path. There were occasions when a married woman tried to fix me up with a single woman, but it never seemed to be anything more than genuine concern for my happiness (none of these attempts worked, BTW). There was certainly no pressure.

It was a small group of single women who brought me headaches. The assumption of these women was that if you were not someone’s boyfriend/husband by age 25 (or 30, or shortly thereafter), then there was something seriously wrong with you. Several assumed that I was gay, and told me so point blank. Others thought that a single man my age was some kind of sex fiend or stalker, and I found it impossible to hold a normal conversation with these women since they always assumed that you were hitting on them and trying to get them into the sack. I avoided these women and left them to their conspiracy theories.

I did not encounter many single women looking for a relationship with a non-perfect guy. Probably that was because of the social circles that I ran in.

To make a long story short: I was married to the woman of my dreams. And I found her in the most unlikely place – but that story is off-topic.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:42 am 18. GW Crawford:

Well, as a guy who is painfully shy, has no options for female comapnionship at this time (and for some time) I would love for the few women I know to try and set me up!

But I am not rich, I am not great looking and I am an honest, decent guy – I am gettin’ nada!

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:44 am 19. otpu:

Blogdog said: “Real men aren’t scared by women.”

You may be correct but in today’s litigious climate a “real man” who isn’t at least a little concerned about a Woman’s Lawyer is more than a bit of a fool.

otpu

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:45 am 20. john b:

This is remarkably like my situation as a never married man in his late forties. My close friends and their wives understand that I’m happy being single even though I have been in a couple of LTRs. The grief I get is from married women in my church who are remarkably blunt in their efforts to yoke me to the nearest unmarried female. I have to arrive last and leave first to avoid their webs.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:46 am 21. WidowedGuy:

The simple truth – though neither gender wants to discuss it, is that the treatment of men by women has been deteriorating for the last 35 years. This has been ever amplified by ever harsher media stereotypes and supported by any variety of legal decisions and political initiatives. As a long married man now single, I am truly astonished by the attitudes and comments made by available women about men in general and single men in particular.

In response men, especially younger never married men, have taken a long look at the potential downside of marriage. More and more of them are opting out of the institution. Finding a life “partner” is not the same thing as finding a life boss.

I think that married women are aware that things have gone to far and are threatened both by the trend of men staying single and by men who demonstrate that they are happily single. Rather than dismissing this as rubbish, perhaps married women might better look to themselves and their marriages and with their husbands make married life better than single life.

Just a thought

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:47 am 22. Crafty Hunter:

I tried to post a response with many links. It disappeared into the Void.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:50 am 23. Passerby:

Well, hell, I love my wife, wouldn’t trade waking up with her in the morning if I could bag the entire roster of the Miss Universe pageant during a long-weekend.

But, then, I followed my Dad’s advice: “Never marry anybody crazier than yourself.” Thank God, my wife didn’t get the same advice.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:55 am 24. ricpic:

I’d say that heterosexual men who never marry are timid. I’ve never married and timidity has been a factor. Jim’s “most women scare the crap out of me” indicates that he’s timid, too.

Not saying that’s the whole explanation. Just a considerable factor.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:57 am 25. Kevin M:

WidowedGuy makes a very good point re how men are treated in the media. The stereotypes are ridiculous. And because most TV shows are targeted to women (statistically, women are profoundly more responsible for TV viewership than are men), the sensibilities, tastes and prejudices of women are catered to by TV writers. I wonder how much women are really sold on what passes for “typical male behavior” that is shown on most channels, particularly Lifetime (Television for Idiots!).

I’m not so sold on “Jim’s” fear of women. I don’t suspect his fear issues are directed at women. It’s more likely a case of what lies in store for him if he makes a relationship mistake. I would very much welcome the chance to enjoy a shared life with a trusted friend, life partner or whatever. But, having seen several friends and relatives endure horrific divorces that left nothing in their wake but misery and two rich lawyers, the consequences of making a bad decision weighs heavily on my mind as well.

My advice would be for him to pay close attention to his social circle, decide what kind of people and values he wants in his life and to tailor his associations accordingly.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:03 am 26. Jon:

Actually, it’s not always about getting hooked up with their friends. I have a number of older or married women friends that will try to encourage me to date more and tell me what a great guy I am. I always got the feeling they had a crush on me that was being displaced this way because they were unavailable.

I’m willing to believe that’s wishful thinking. This would imply that there’s a fundamental shift that goes on at marriage where I suddenly become irresistable, because Heaven knows, single women aren’t that interested.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:07 am 27. Helen Smith:

Mister Snitch,

“Never thought I’d see a woman ‘go there’ as often or as fearlessly as you do. I can’t see YOU being intimidated by single men.”

No, I certainly would not be, nor by single women either. and yes, I think it is important to have an open discussion of how men truly feel about cultural and social issues–for there are few places where they can really do so, at least, in my opinion.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:11 am 28. hoosiertoo:

You’d have to be an utter moron to risk financial and personal ruin with a “liberated” modern already espoused to the state. Marriage? Um, not.

A committed and Christian marriage is the only way to fly. Good luck with that. Women suitable for such a marriage are few and far between – even in church.

I found one – thanks to God! – but I’d hate to try it again, especially at my age.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:17 am 29. aaron:

Perhaps some of these ladies don’t know it’s a buyer’s market…

and so far nothing really seems like it’s a good deal.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:22 am 30. Ed Wallis:

“Crafty Hunter,” there have been A NUMBER of entries at this thread which have been removed…whether sensitivities of Helen or PJM sillies, who knows.

I’m trying again: Yes, the “bagged and tagged” is just yet another sexist piece of hooey of some women today – “bag” = marry, “tag” = wedding ring.

Like I posted earlier BUT WAS REMOVED this is just the latest iteration of women who look at men as if they were a wallet with a male genital hanging off it.

I only wonder why this “Dr.” Helen repeatedly bashes the man (i.e. what is HIS problem…) in question so – most men are (sad to say) used to this creepy behavior from less reasonable persons of the other gender. With the exception of the 3rd to last paragraph, this article is lame, lame lame.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:22 am 31. John Davies:

I’m 49, heterosexual, and never married. My friend’s wife refers to me as “Plan B.”

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:23 am 32. wtlf555:

Projecting the idea that ultruism and the desire to make a single man happy in a relationship is the matchmaking female’s cunning way to round up any male outliers who threaten the female species’ overall plan to subjugate the male and eventually hold them all in suspended animation within life support pods while they harvest the males sperm. When I was younger I believed that the females would keep us chained to the wall with fairly comfortable velvet cuffs in sanitary rooms and send their finest physical specimens in groups of two or more to harvest our sperm using methods we had grown accustomed to watching good porn. Now that that I am older and wiser I realize the error of my thinking.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:26 am 33. Blount:

58, never married, and not gay. I was looking to get married in my late 20s to mid-thirties but never found a suitable match. After that I had accumulated significant wealth and was not about to risk that on a marriage, especially after I judged myself as too old to start a family. I’m happily unmarried, enjoying life, and couldn’t care less what others think about my marital status.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:33 am 34. Lorenz Gude:

I was married early and divorced after about 20 years. I’ve never been bitter, but wound up single by choice. I quickly learned to keep the matchmakers at bay by acting a bit crazier than I am – a defense mechanism I’ve found useful in a variety of situations since childhood.

I’d also point out that things have changed since Jane Austin’s day and that in the past century we have radically altered the relationship between the sexes. In my great grand daddy’s day the many cigar stores in NY were not cigar stores – they were brothels. I think we are utilizing the talents of the fair sex a whole lot better today, but that much change exposes weaknesses and limitations in institutions like marriage that take time and hard earned awareness to correct. (Telling that cigar store story at just the wrong moment is a good example of how to keep the matchmakers away.)

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:36 am 35. Thomass:

Bagged and tagged probably means caught, registered (scarlet letters attached), and then released.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:37 am 36. Jane:

Kevin M,
“WidowedGuy makes a very good point re how men are treated in the media. The stereotypes are ridiculous.”
I agree. And as a woman, I’m often embarrassed by these shows. Of course, that probably explains why I don’t watch much tv anymore (the shows I do watch have nothing to do mom/dad/kids). The stereotypical beautiful woman with the overweight, macho and idiot husband on tv shows gets old real fast. The reality is very different. But maybe that wouldn’t make for funny tv shows…
But really, what does that show to our kids? I grew up with a single mom, dad living on the other side of the planet and pretty much not in the picture. Tv is where I learned what families with two parents are like since I didn’t have a real-world example. I’d hate to think how kids in that situation would interpret this today. The mom is bossy and always gets her way. The dad is a coward who just wants to drink beer. Yep, that’s the kind of relationship I would want to be in…

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:38 am 37. Thomass:

Stosh2:

“Relentless grilling on personal issues seems to be the current rather poor substitute for polite conversaion these days.”

I’ve noticed that too. Its probably collateral damage from the political pushy-ness of the last six or seven years (like the mandatory Bush bash at the start social events, that your expected to play along with even though he obviously had enough supporters to win.. so odds are not everyone is into it).

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:44 am 38. Jack H:

Two things:

Location. I lived in DC and dating there is horrendous. Male and female all act like men, but not like gentlemen. Both lack any social skills whatever and back stab in a heartbeat. On the other hand, women in California, Oklahoma, Minnesota, Hell, anywhere not on the East Coast from Richmond to Boston, in my experience, were just friendlier and more human. About the only place in DC where women were friendly were in Country-Western bars. Probably due to their background and the common interest in dancing.

2. Media. Widowed Guy and Kevin M. picked up on the way men are portayed, particularly white men. I will never touch a bowl of Cheerios again because of the way men are portrayed in their Ad campaign. The latest is when a snarky know-it-all wife chides her husband for trying to finish his “To Do” list. He busts his butt trying to get things done, like a moron. Meanwhile wifey poo flits around eating bowls of Cheerios with an “I told you so” look on her face.
The other Cheerios commercial involves a clueless husband who asks his wife if she is trying to lose weight because Cheerios are low fat. He then is subjected to a Spanish Inquisition in which he demonstrates his already emasculated state by his limp responses to her harsh counter-attack.

People should just be nicer to each other. That, and join my nation-wide boycott of Cheerios.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:48 am 39. Melissa:

As a happily married 55 year old woman, I sympathize with the 47-year old unmarried guy who wrote Dr. Helen, and I agree with “widowedguy” that women have become more harsh in their treatment of men over the last decades. Here’s my example:

A few years ago, our church hired an unmarried male (not gay) in his early 50’s as the pastor. I was subsequently appalled by the comments of women I knew, married and unmarried, mostly in their 30’s,40’s, and 50’s, who attended the monthly women’s group meeting. At the 2 meetings I attended, many of the women unashamedly bashed the minister’s appearance including his beard, his teeth, his hair, etc., as if they could only think of him in terms of his sexual appeal. And he was a really nice guy – very personable and intelligent. These same women thought of themselves as feminists, and would have been apopletic if their husbands had made similarly sexist comments about our previous unmarried female minister. I have never figured out why these women couldn’t just think of the minister as a person, instead of focusing on his physical characteristics. I don’t believe they would have made the same comments about a married minister. And the rest of the story? I stopped going to that church, and the minister eventually left also. They now have another female minister.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:51 am 40. TheTimMan:

Altruism as women’s primary motivation? I’m shocked at your naivete Dr. Helen. A single man in his 30’s, 40’s or 50’s is an affront to a woman’s desire for “Control” just the same as a woman’s husband’s freedom is also an afront to her desire for Control. Notice that the concept is in your own language when you used the term “kept on a short leash.” Since when is it a marriage of equals when one of the equals controls the other the way a master controls a dog?
I’m 47, single, heterosexual and finally I’m beginning to realize that I should stop dodging that ubiquitous question of “why aren’t you married?” I never married because each time I got close to a woman I found that she wanted to control me and smartly I chose to get away as fast as my mind could get my libido to do so.
So, when we speak in generalities about this subject let’s place altruism and pity well below Control as women’s motivation for despising older, still-single men.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:00 am 41. Bill Perron:

Interesting comments, some are very insightful and some are frivolous, but all are entertaining. I like being a single guy, the world is truly my oyster, come and go whenever and wherever I want, no hassels, the money I earn is mine to dispose or to save, my choice. Plenty of really good looking women here in L. A. Absolutely no desire to fix something that ain’t broke.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:01 am 42. Juanita:

Ok, I guess I’m one of those horrible married women who occasionally try to set up my single friends with eligible men that I meet.

Stupid ol’ me just thought that maybe there would be someone else out there in the same situation I was (single, late 30’s, not into the bar scene, life of my own) that might appreciate getting to meet someone new, not necessarily for marriage, mind you, but just to have someone to spend time with doing something fun.

After all, I wouldn’t have met my wonderful husband if someone wouldn’t have set me up with him.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:04 am 43. Kevin M:

Great post, Melissa! I find it telling that your former church was more interested in the messenger rather than the message.

Jack H: I have heard from several people that if you leave New England (generally, the northeast as a whole) and venture south or west, the people are much nicer, friendlier and less confrontational. As a New Englander who has always lived in the northeast, I have long considered moving far away to see if this is really true. I find a striking number of people in the northeast to be very prickly, rude and cold.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:06 am 44. Zooman:

Thanks, Dr. Helen, for another interesting male topic.

(“Love is blind; but marriage is an eye-opener.” Thanks to Henny Youngman for the jokes.)

I’m a 56-year-old never married hetero man. I’ve lived and worked around the world and make a decent living. I’m eligible but not “on the market.”

A few of my friends have excellent marriages and I find myself sometimes envious. But it only takes an insider’s look at the majority of marriages to make me realize that this is a delicate balancing act and often in need of a safety net.

I find that without a permanent woman in my life that balance is quite easy.

(“Married people live longer than singles. But married people are a lot more willing to die.”)

Yes, I’ve been hassled by married women about my status. I think they are threatened and I like to play it up a bit — not in front of the hubby, though, that would be mean. But I exaggerate the fun parts of bachelorhood and downplay the negatives to these women. The bottom line is that men don’t need women around the house — a concept foreign to many women, it seems.

The look on their faces is all the same — “This is awful and it must NOT get out! Otherwise it’s game over for us.”

I wish all married couples exquisite happiness. It’s not for me, however. Please accept my lifestyle, as I accept their choice.

(“Marriage is very similar to a violin; after the sweet music is over, you discover that strings are attached.”)

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:09 am 45. Crafty Hunter:

Ed Wallis, I think the link-rich post was removed automatically by anti-spam algorithms that simply remove all posts with more than one or two links, placing them into a special spam trap queue which Ms. Smith hasn’t seen fit as yet to examine for posts that shouldn’t be in it. I know WordPress has such a feature, since I use WordPress myself.

I couldn’t say what has happened to other posts.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:10 am 46. Bob's Kid:

Heck, if someone was pestering me about something that personal I’d make up some wild story to tell–and make it different every time. I doubt most women mean ill of it, but a bit of humor will make them get a clue.

If I were to ask a single gentleman anything about his marital status it would be out of curiosity–by choice or just never met the right woman? Those things interest me as someone who married right out of high school. It never occured to me at the time that I might never find a mate at all; even less would I have considered that I would not want one. Some people know from childhood that they do not want to ever marry, which is fine. I just find it interesting.

And on the flip side, I have two 30-something daughters who are unmarried and without prospects. I am asked all the time why they aren’t married or at least seeing someone. My reply? They’d love to, if they could find someone. For all our electronic communication these days, that’s still not easy, and the older you get the harder it is.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:10 am 47. Assistant Village Idiot:

There have been some excellent theories posited here, and this is meant to add to them, not contradict any.

I know unmarried men who are full adults, but many of them are simply not grownups. Suggesting that a woman wants children and finds men to be an accessory like a GPS neglects this point. Perhaps many of these women want to enter full adulthood, which usually involves taking responsibility for another human being or other important item like a business or an organization. As a 55-year-old male with four sons, I have an oversensitivity to males who wish to avoid adulthood. It’s bad for the tribe. Perhaps some of the married women feel the same.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:11 am 48. Greg In Seattle:

I’m a 41 yo straight, lifelong bachelor. When I was in my 20s and 30s, my friend’s wives asked me a lot about my marriage status, but now I think they’ve just given up (they rarely ask about it now). Maybe because some of them are getting out of their marriages…

I’m still open to a LTR and marriage, but I really think things are harder re: relationships nowadays than in my folks’ generation. Women often have very high standards, and I’ve found they just disappear when they find out you fall short of one or two of them.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:14 am 49. Dennis:

As a grandfather who has a wife, two daughters, and five granddaughters I, many times, am the only male in the room. I am appalled at how women treat each other and the men in their lives. I was listening to my oldest daughter talking to one of my granddaughters and it seemed as if they had only negative things to say about their, husband/father. I finally asked wether he had any positive qualities. I can only wonder what the conversation is when I am not there.
I think much of this comes from a lack of and a desire to understand what it is to be male. Women press for men to be sensitive to their problems, but continually fail to do it themselves. I am also not sure that there is a bit of insecurity involved.
My daughter probably said it best when she stated that women are meaner than men. I have reached the age where if you have nothing good to say then your opinion is of little value to me and I have let it be known. Life is complicated enough without spending your time putting others down so you can feel good about yourself.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:22 am 50. Almost Ali:

The question begs a firm answer, something, anything that fits the solid, black-or-white thinker.

Therefore, if a man begins with the premise that all women are inherently silly, he will seldom go wrong. Any female capacity for pragmatism only comes after marriage.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:22 am 51. Twok:

Isn’t this power balance set to correct itself if only the man manages to get the woman to agree to a fair and reasonable pre-nup?

Or even a post-nup, if possible?

Separately, the truth is, an unmarried man over 35 has it RELATIVELY easy compared to an unmarried woman of the same age. Fortunately for women, they have other women helping them.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:24 am 52. HeatherRadish:

The likelihood is that those married women have about a dozen single female friends looking to be set up with a nice, successful single man.

Are you joking? The first thing women do after the wedding is toss all their single women friends out to the curb.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:24 am 53. chuck:

“Finding a life “partner” is not the same thing as finding a life boss”–indeed, many women do seem to think of husbands as EMPLOYEES. Some women are enlightened employers, offering employee benefits such as frequent sex, a sympathetic ear, and occasionally allowing the husband to actually spend money on something HE cares about. Others are regular Simon Legrees.

There are a few women who view the husband’s life as being valuable in its own right and not just an accessory to their own, but they are rare. The best that the average man is going to be able to do is to get one of the “enlightened employer” type. But always remember that her treatment of you will be entirely dependent on meeting her needs, for income and status, for example, and if you don’t meet these, then today’s enlightened employer will turn into tomorrow’s Simon Legree.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:24 am 54. rvastar:

I’m 37 and never married. And while I’ve had no problems with meeting and dating the ladies, when it comes to marriage, I’m completely screwed.

Why?

Because I’m neither liberal nor religious, meaning I don’t think I need to be “saved” by God…or Obambi.

If any of you happen to be – or know – the 1 or 2 women in this country that might fit that description, by all means…

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:32 am 55. scottkellyfa711:

Whenever I read one of Dr. Helen’s posts — or the legions of comments which follow — I think again about how stupendously, outrageously, unbelievably, astronomically lucky I am to have found the woman I did.

Jim’s money quote, which has been alluded to both directly and indirectly in the comments, is this:

But I am somehow not attracted to being in an intimate relationship with a member of a group of people (here comes the Freudian slip!) who seem to regard me as an accessory. Most women I know want children, but not a husband. They merely see a husband as an accessory, like a GPS, to make having a family a lot less burdensome.

This is underscored by Bob’s comment:

They’re simply sizing the guy up as a match for one of their friends. It’s what married women do. To be honest, they’re probably much less concerned with the happiness of the guy than they are with their friend’s happiness, but that’s natural enough.

Dr. H did a recent column on Kathleen Parker’s book Save the Males: Why Men Matter/Why Women Should Care, and a near-universal complaint about the book, as useful as it is, was that the premise was that men were worthy of saving only insofar as their usefulness to women.

Which, I suppose, is why Proverbs 31 says: “Who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies.” Take rubies to the power of diamonds, then square it — that’s my beloved bride.

Such women are not easy to find, and thanks to the kultursmog, they’re becoming rarer still. And unless/until you run across one, why rush into something you’ll regret, especially given today’s legal environment?

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:37 am 56. Trent Telenko:

Helen,

As a man who was single until age 44 — and currently married with a baby girl in the house hold at 45 — there is definately a bias by American women against older male bachelors. I had pretty much given up on marriage until I met and started dating my future wife in 2006.

You covered married women pretty well. Often married women saw me as a threat to the relationship they had with thier husbands, for the reasons you related.

My experiance with single women over the last decade was that they seemed to think there was something wrong with a man if he has never married by 35.

He is considered either gay or a mental case in some way that prevents them from having a long term relationship with a woman.

Divorced men over 30 are far more acceptable to both married and single women than a ‘never married, over 35,’ male.

I will concede that older male bachelors are less flexible and more set in their ways, but what I ran into in the dating scene was far more than that, and argued for a very negative (to men) popular cultural value.

One instance that comes to mind was my future sister-in-law was saying “I must be a serial killer” to my wife because I did not want to take my wife to my apartment due to the mess.

I am glad to be out of the dating scene now, but I will definately tell any children of mine the real “Dating 411″ regards older men.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:41 am 57. Debbie:

I’m a 49 yr old never married, heterosexual FEMALE, and I think older single women are viewed with less suspicion than men. I’ll hear friends make a “must be gay”or “whats wrong with him?” comment about a 40 something year old single man, and when I remind them I am also 40something and unmarried they say, “Oh its diferent with women”. Pure silliness of course. People dont marry for many reason, mine being “It just did’nt happen”. I’m ok with that.

Occasionally married women want to fix me up. But it is always the UNHAPPILY married ones. Misery wants company i guess. The happily married women are content to leave me alone.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:49 am 58. Emily:

I concur with those who say that the depiction of men in popular culture is terrible. It’s why I avoid most fictional tv shows.

I am in my 30s and married. I don’t have any problems with it when my husband wants to go out with his single friends. I don’t see why any secure wife would. And I don’t try to set up his single friends with any of mine – largely because, while my single friends are great friends, their relationship track record strongly disinclines me to set them up with anyone I have any fondness for.

The only single man whose continued singleness concerns me is my younger brother. And the only reason I pay any attention to it is that I know how much he wants to meet someone special. If he was happy being single, I wouldn’t hassle him about finding someone. But he isn’t happy, so I keep my eyes open for any single women who have potential. Sadly for my brother, the single women I have encountered are all the kind who would only want to change him. Forget that!

So many women have this entitlement attitude, like they deserve to be catered to in all ways by their boyfriends/husbands, but don’t have any obligation to be considerate of his wishes. It’s disgusting, and, IMO, displays a serious deficiency in both logical thinking and common courtesy.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:54 am 59. Bilwick1:

I’m 58, male, straight, never married. Most women I know are fine with that, but I tend to run with an urban (not to say “urbane”) artsy-intellectual crowd where marital status isn’t as obsessed over as it probably is in conventional middle-class and/or suburban circles. The fact that I tend to travel in the circles I do also restricts the available pool of potential mates, because I’m a libertarian, want someone with similar pro-freedom values, and the artsy-intellectual set is depressingly collectivist, especially among females, a gender that seems genetically predisposed to collectivism.

But the bottom line is that my needs for privacy, solitude and independence are greater than the norm. The idea of cohabiting (cohabitating?) with someone with or without benefit of clergy gives me the willies.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:56 am 60. Aureliano:

The problem isn’t married women grilling single men for less-than-altruistic reasons so much as it is one spouse in a marriage disrespecting someone who is single –- especially men — because there simply are no social mores demanding otherwise.

To a married man, the first thing he will think when he encounters socially an unmarried male in his 40s is the following: “Is he gay?” If it’s established that he’s not, he’ll move on to other things such as: “Is he bagging a babe?” or “Does he make more money than I do?” or somesuch. Bagging a babe is proves he’s not gay, so that’s most important to a married (presumably heterosexual) man; otherwise a single man is judged by the usual range of male-group social markers, or rather, the married man stops caring and just wants to know whether the guy plays golf or a killer BBQ grill.

Ah, but to a married woman, the situation is rather more complicated. Since to a woman marriage serves the primary dualistic purpose of alleviating the abject fear of being alone (not the same as actually being alone) while simultaneously completely validating her as a human being (erroneously, I might add), she projects these rather base fears and needs onto others, particularly the validation error. To a woman, a single unmarried male is an unvalidated human being, or more bluntly an ‘invalid’ man. And since women will have a tendency to think that the average man is as afraid of being alone as she, she will believe that he MUST be doubly unhappy. In short, a single heterosexual man should be a whimpering, quivering mess without a wife or a deeply committed relationship.

Except he’s not. And therein lies the difference. A married man isn’t threatened by this, or by happy single women, but many married women are hugely threatened. If a man doesn’t need marriage for validation (i.e., happiness), then a woman’s husband doesn’t really need her to be happy, either, which severely restricts her ability to gain or maintain the upper hand in a relationship (i.e., it restricts her behavior if the man feels he can walk — it’s called accountability). Single men in general and HAPPY single men in particular really do show that people can walk out of a marriage and still be able to build a meaningful life as a single. In addition, for some women it even shakes her belief that she has been completely validated by marriage, as well — it brings up nasty little doubts that maybe, just maybe she has to do more than just get married and hermetically seal herself within marriage to be a decent human being. In short, happy single men are living, breathing counter-examples to the entire “Marriage Validates Me Completely” social-psychological strategy employed by so many females.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:03 am 61. kynna:

Some posters have mentioned that inappropriate interrogation is the new, crude form of small talk. I have to disagree a little bit. I think the tendency is more to share every intimate thing with every person one meets. I used to temp, so I experienced it a lot. I’d meet a woman in an office for the first time and within half an hour I’d be hearing about her latest pap smear!

That bizarre openness seems to have filtered into every encounter and men are engaging in it too now. And from people’s willingness to share every little thing, they expect the same in return.

It’s icky.

But I do agree with those who are saying the married women are looking for mates for their unmated friends. If you’re happy in your own ’ship, you’d love to see others in the same situation. It comes from a good place whether it’s appropriate or not. It’s not okay to put pressure on but an simple interview on behalf of someone you care about is really quite harmless.

(Married over ten years now, very happy, and would love to see all my friends the same — Not Apologizing!)

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:04 am 62. NevrMarried:

Re: Greg in Seattle “Women often have very high standards, and I’ve found they just disappear when they find out you fall short of one or two of them.” How true. I also have found that as I get older(I’m 39) the women I date are looking for someone that fits into THEIR life, with very little concern or thought of building a shared life. It’s much more important to them what I do for them, how I make them feel etc, than what they do for me or make me feel. They want an accessorie. I’m not a damned pocketbook. On the flip side I have certain standards too and I’m sure I’m a bit too critical but I find myself wondering what all these women bring to the table. HMMMM lets see…self-centerdness, another mans children, ex-husbands, MANY past ‘relationships’and on and on… All in all, I think I’ll probably be single for quite a long time.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:05 am 63. RG:

This all strikes me as another iteration of the age old question of “wait for the perfect match, or settle for the best available.” There are not many people who wouldn’t like a “perfect” marriage; i.e. it seems to be an almost universally held belief that the ideal “life with a partner” is preferable to the ideal “life without a partner.”

The question is then: give a set of imperfect options, what general rules can you use to determine which life options are preferable? It doesn’t seem that either Dr. Helen or many of the commenters have really taken the depth of this dilemma serious; everyone either claims to be in a perfect marriage, or single without any remotely reasonable prospects.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:14 am 64. John Samford:

Much ado over nothing. The whole thingie of womens rights is a social experiment, one that is doomed to fail. The Muslims are assimilating Europe, which will put and end to the womans movement there. Ohhhhh…..BAMA will put an end to it here.
Once The West is cured of it’s silly notion of female equality, the world will go back to the way it was for the last half a million years or so.
It’s natures way. A way the third world has never abandoned, which is why they are out breeding us. You can fool mother nature for a little while, but in the end, she gets you.
One EMP and America is back in the 18th century again. See how fast Womans rights vanishes then.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:17 am 65. DJ:

@AVI:
I know unmarried men who are full adults, but many of them are simply not grownups. Suggesting that a woman wants children and finds men to be an accessory like a GPS neglects this point. Perhaps many of these women want to enter full adulthood, which usually involves taking responsibility for another human being or other important item like a business or an organization

I wonder what you mean by “grownups,” here. The danger is making this synonymous with “married” — and you flirt with this by saying that it “usually involves taking responsibility for another human being….” While you grant that responsibility for an “other important item” counts, frankly, I wonder if you mean it.

I’m almost 45, unmarried, and have a great job to which I dedicate much of my life. I also have a dog, hobbies, and a full life. Most of my unmarried (or divorced) friends are similar in these respects. Are we not grownups? Are they grownups but not me? They’ve got kids they love, and they’re financially hard up due to alimony and child support. I’m open to marriage…but divorce doesn’t look like a good deal from here. And, as others have observed, it isn’t hard to find women who bear various grudges against men, or think mistreatment of males in general is somehow justified by the legacy of sexism, or are just very threatened by single men.

When a women, married or unmarried, asks about my marital status, I assume the charitable interpretation: she is thinking about introducing me to a single friend. I have to say, though: this has never actually happened. Sometimes the asker (when she isn’t married) has turned out to be interested herself, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. But that just makes it odd that the friends don’t turn up — if I’m unacceptable for some reason, why would they want to date me themselves? But if I’m not unacceptable, and there are all these single women looking for a good (albeit very imperfect) man…..well, their friends are falling down on the job. At the very least, I’m a pleasant dinner date, happy to foot the bill, and don’t expect any quid pro quo.

So although I don’t doubt that there are women with amiable intentions out there, I find it hard to believe that most inquiring women are just trying to get two lonely people who might be compatible together. We’re all, men and women, a bit too complicated — not to say f-ed up — for that explanation to do much work. Or so it seems to me.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:19 am 66. Happycrow:

HeatherRadish wrote:

“Are you joking? The first thing women do after the wedding is toss all their single women friends out to the curb.”

I have to wonder, are you from back east? I’ve never seen this at all. I’m happily married (though I must admit that I found my wife abroad, as the Dallas Gold-Digger Phenomenon is only growing worse, rather than better, as t.v. is now empowering the worst of our local vapid, ignorant, and solipsistic), and we regularly have all sorts of folks in, and regularly spend time with folks whether they’re single or not.

Come to think of it, my wife’s male friends who are single are most online… but I can’t imagine either of us actually caring one way or the other about the whole non-issue.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:23 am 67. Happycrow:

@scottkellyfa711:

“Save the Males” talks about male usefulness to women because it’s trying to sell women on the idea that they should care how the guys are doing, and, per Heinlein, the best way of doing that is not appealing to one’s better nature (which they may not have), but to their better interests.

The gold-diggers I mentioned in my previous reply could care less what I think on any number of issues: they DO care whether or not I’m buying them dinner and drinks.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:25 am 68. Bok:

Wait, one of the commenters Trent Telenko said that a divorced man of 35 is more acceptable than a never-married man of 35.

Why? I would think the divorced man is damaged goods, no?

I am a 34-year-old man comtemplating divorce from my 33-year old wife after a 3.5-year marriage. She is comtemplating it too. We have no kids (mainly because we have very infrequent sex). But we both are afraid to pull the trigger due to fear of merely being more miserable after divorce.

Happiness, of course, is always relative.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:28 am 69. Chuck Pelto:

TO: BlogDog
RE: The Scary Stuff

“Stop being scared. Real men aren’t scared by women.” — BlogDog

True. Until they meet them in court.

“And in my experience, women look for real men.” — BlogDog

True again. But what do they want from them?

I found out in divorce court….twice.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You never know a woman until you meet her in court.]

P.S. But by then, it’s usually too late to do much about it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:45 am 70. TalkinKamel:

I suspect Jim’s fear of women has far more to do with Jim himself, and the sort of person he is, than it does with the female sex in general, society in general, marriage in general, etc., etc., etc. (I suspect the real problem is less that women are treating him as an “accessory”, and more that they aren’t treating him in any way at all—or they aren’t treating him the way he demands he be treated. Maybe Jim thinks of women as accessories, as is disappointed when they express a desire to, say, get married and start a family?)

At any rate, I suspect the problem lies with Jim. And any man, married or single, who’se greatest problem is that women are constantly trying to tag and bag him, and he feels they arent’ tolerant enough of his single status, is a man who can count himself lucky. He’s may also be a man with too much spare time on his hands.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:47 am 71. MikeT:

So many women have this entitlement attitude, like they deserve to be catered to in all ways by their boyfriends/husbands, but don’t have any obligation to be considerate of his wishes. It’s disgusting, and, IMO, displays a serious deficiency in both logical thinking and common courtesy.

As I have said to my wife, when we have children, our daughters will hear one thing when it comes to anything that smacks of princesses: “America is a republic, there are no princesses here. If you want to be one, go back to the old country.”

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:54 am 72. Donna B.:

RG,

Yes, and I noticed that the letter-writer mentioned several times how his parents set such a good example for him, especially his mother. I immediately thought that he was looking for a “perfect” woman and there is no such thing.

As for marriage, if both husband and wife are happy, that’s pretty darn close to perfect. And by happy, I don’t mean ecstatic bliss 24/7.

I might add that any marriage where the wife doesn’t want her husband to go out with his single friends isn’t a happy one. Where’s the trust? The mutual regard?

My husband not only regularly goes out with his single friends (a few of those are women — the binding interest is motorcycles), he worked away from home for years. I know he went out during those times (he told me he did) and I hope he had a good time. I never worried about him cheating on me or deciding he’d just rather be “free” of me.

What is it with the insecurity of some of these people?

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:55 am 73. Dave_T:

“Bagged and tagged” is certainly an apt metaphor to describe marriage these days…

It is good to see that more and more men (and some women) are starting to see the present version of marriage for the scam it is. I think most confirmed batchelors have done a simple “cost-benefit analysis” of this institution, and determined they are better off single. It is as simple as that…

Given that most marriages implode within 5 years, in 75% of cases it is the wife who leaves, and in doing so she will normally walk away with all the marbles, a man contemplating marriage today is playing the financial, legal, and emotional equivalent of Russian Roulette. And in this version, the majority of the chambers are loaded, not empty…

Contrary to media portrayals, men are not stupid, and are deciding that the best way to win the game is simply not to play. They need only look at the experiences of others to have this view validated.

I consider myself lucky; my marriage ended after only three years, and I have finally managed to recover emotionally and financially. That process took ten long years. I now definately consider myself a member of the “confirmed batchelor” camp, and most certainly will never marry again. Long term relationships yes, but marriage, never. If certain individuals (both male and female), consider me selfish, immature, or not a “real man” for that decision, so be it, I really don’t care…

If there is one thing I will tell friends who are considering marriage, it is this… It is a life choice, probably the most important one you will ever make, and the consequences of a bad choice will be with you for the rest of your life. Therefore, this is a decision that is all about YOU; not her, not society, not family, or anyone else, but YOU… Because YOU are the one who must live it…

I often wonder if there is so much abuse, invective, and contempt directed at batchelors because many women are afraid that more and more men are finally “getting it”, and deciding the life of a minivan-driving wage slave is not for them. And that as the pool of men willing to surrender their dreams, individuality, and humanity at the altar diminishes, some women may have to look in the mirror and ask “could MY attitudes be part of the problem?”…

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:02 am 74. Koblog:

From my experience, the same “who-needs-you?” attitude is transmitted from the same women if you *are* married…but don’t have children. My wife and I are considered not worthy to be included in their club.

It happens. So what?

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:03 am 75. Bill:

I remember one time a woman–a therapist, no less–telling me she thought that single men were “cheating” some woman. Not sexually, or maybe that, too, but just not being available, I guess.
My immediate, and irritated response: “It just fries me when woman think that the only possible use a man can have in the world is to support a woman.” Maybe a little cynical, but enough agreement in these comments that I thought I’d share it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:03 am 76. Stacy:

With the caveat that I am certainly generalizing and there are plenty of individuals who don’t fit the generalization, just hear me out on this — social history can explain a lot of the complaints commenters have about women today.

Until a few generations ago, essentially the entire world was (for lack of a better term) patriarchal, with women never in charge of anything bigger than a household. It shouldn’t be surprising that that environment encouraged manipulation, obsession with petty things and insecurity. Without any chance to build power and influence in the real world, a woman could only build status in her private world by manipulating others. Without the right to own property or deal in business, ambitious women could only advance by pushing their husbands to greater pursuits. And with the legal status of livestock, women were understandably insecure, knowing their entire world could come crashing down at any moment because of a husband’s death, injury or unfaithfulness.

That’s not an excuse, mind you. For practical purposes, western societies have fixed all the problems with the status of women; but it will take time for their institutional knowledge to catch up — for women to absorb male ideals like self-reliance, quiet confidence, walking the walk etc. Until that process is further along, we’ll keep on seeing a lot of women struggling with the new reality of freedom and the responsibility that goes with it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:07 am 77. RebeccaH:

I’ve never been particularly bothered by men who choose to remain single, assuming that they’ve either had childhoods within bad marriages, or had bad marriages themselves. Sometimes I think I might like to set them up, but that’s largely a maternal thing that I almost always dismiss as a meddlesome idea.

However, I have to say, single men who become pals with married men are a real problem to wives. I’m in a situation now where my own husband of forty years has taken it into his head that forty years is a “long time” and maybe “enough”. At first I thought it was because he was attracted to another woman (of my age), and maybe that was part of it, but I’m beginning to suspect that the real crux of this “life crisis” stems from his friendship with a younger, unmarried man who still carries on a footloose lifestyle. Not to say that boredom couldn’t be a problem, and certainly we’ve had our marital ups and downs as everyone does, but I can’t help feeling this “friend” is fanning the fires.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:12 am 78. Mark:

Have you noticed how much a wedding centers around the bride and what she is getting?

Have you noticed how much a divorce centers around the woman and how much she is getting?

Never married males are now seventeen per cent up from a historic six per cent. What are men getting? They’re getting away.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:23 am 79. Bok:

It is clear that no life experience has a wider range of outcomes than marriage.

Marry the right person, and it can be the best thing you ever did. Marry the wrong person, and it can be the worst.

Nothing at all that most people undergo has a better high risk/high return feature to it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:26 am 80. kurt9:

Has it ever occurred to anyone here that maybe the reason why someone is single in their 40’s is simply because they have outside interests and hobbies that they find more fulfilling than the conventional life-cycle life style?

For example, someone who is into outdoor sports like mountain climbing or kayaking. Or maybe one likes to do the lonely-planet style budget travel thing and likes to hang out on the beaches of Southeast Asia. There are many options in life. Marriage (and having kids) is one of them. There seems to be an intolerant attitude here and elsewhere on the net that certain choices should be mandatory. Does not the concept of mandatory choices conflict with the idea of individual freedom and the open society in general?

I lived as an expat in Asia for 10 years, staring when I was 28 years old, when I got out of grad school. I had many interesting experiences that I never thought about before. Had I married at the time most people do, I would never have had the interesting fulfilling experiences that I had as an expat.

I find the notion that “taking responsibility for other people” is a necessary definition of “grown-up” to be highly offensive. This is a very collectivist definition. The only meaningful definition of “grown-up” is the acceptance of responsibility for one’s own actions.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:29 am 81. rvastar:

The fact that I tend to travel in the circles I do also restricts the available pool of potential mates, because I’m a libertarian, want someone with similar pro-freedom values, and the artsy-intellectual set is depressingly collectivist, especially among females, a gender that seems genetically predisposed to collectivism.

Wow…I’m not alone in a cruel, cruel universe

Recently, the running joke with my friends (most of whom are Lefties…although years of taking an intellectual flamethrower to their programming is starting to pay off in a couple of cases) is this: after I’ve spent about 30 minutes talking to a prospective future date, one of my “friends” will yell out, “Hey, B__! Who you gonna vote for in November?”

I tell ya, the results have been brutal a couple of times. Tell certain women you’re not voting for Obambi, and your score on the Attractive meter will go from Prince Charming to Prince Charles faster than she can say “Check please!”

BRUTAL.

And Bilwick, don’t you just love the last refuge of a befuddled Lefty, desperately groping for something steady to hold onto when they’re being bombarded with actual facts, numbers, history, etc.? Of course, I’m speaking of their “Break in Case of Emergency” alarm:

Let’s ask [[insert another generic Lefty's name]] what he/she thinks!

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:38 am 82. Helen Smith:

Mark,

Interesting that you mention the wedding centering around the bride. Last week, I walked by a Tuxedo shop (for men) at the mall with a sign that read, “For all the colors a bride could want.” I guess they didn’t think the man would care or be able to choose the “proper” colors for his own wedding attire.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:40 am 83. 00stephen:

The most important aspect gleaned from the letter, Dr. Helen’s thoughts, and ensuing comments is that — whether you’re married or single, male or female, straight or gay — in order for you to be happy, you need to be genuinely accept who you are and recognize the benefits of your present situation.

Although he claims he’s happily single, the writer of the letter comes across to me as a little insecure (as reflected in his aversion of answering questions regarding his choice) and certainly distrustful of the motives of women in general. Both of these construct an unfortunate frame of mind through which the writer views the world and life’s daily interactions.

Yes, society does expect that by certain age, a person will have tried (even they failed) to maintain a marriage or lasting relationship. Yes, there will be people out there — for whatever reason of preference, principle, or psychology — choose not to follow the norm. No big deal; but those who do decide to buck the trend should do it with confidence and a thick skin, and not take offense should others inquire about the reason.

Whenever people ask me why I’m single, I jokingly allude to the old Groucho Marx quote, “I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.” Does such an attitude reflect a shortcoming on my part, or the shortcomings of potential partners? Quite possibly “yes” to both, but who cares?

(these comments, as typical of many that I read on blog are great. Greg in Seattle and NevrMarried raise good points, and it’s true of both genders)

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:48 am 84. Thomas Vago:

I. Will. NEVER. Marry. An. American. Woman.

Period.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:51 am 85. Bok:

“I. Will. NEVER. Marry. An. American. Woman.”

Don’t assume a foreign woman will be necessarily better. An unbanite foreign woman may actually have more of the traits you fear than a small-town, conservative American woman.

Jul 14, 2008 - 11:59 am 86. sofasleeper:

I have very mixed feelings on this topic.

On the one hand, I fiercely love my wife. On the other hand, we have had some serious struggles, and there are times — many times — when I feel like I’ve been a flop as a husband, and I wish I had never sought marriage.

So I have a very strange sort of mixed envy of these men who have found a way to be happy being single.

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:02 pm 87. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Dr. Helen
RE: Mens’ Attire

“I guess they didn’t think the man would care or be able to choose the “proper” colors for his own wedding attire.” — Dr. Helen

I’ve always been partial to Dress Blues.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:04 pm 88. Kevin M:

A few random observations:

Mike T made an interesting post about how his daughters would not be raised to be “princesses.” I have some good friends who are raising a daughter who is 8 years old and totally into the whole “princess” routine, from the clothes she wears to the kids’ books she reads. I am aghast to think of the marital nightmare this child will eventually become, but, of course, I have to keep my trap shut. And it’s the wife who buys all this stuff for her…’nuff said.

Entitlement: That mentality can apply toward women and men quite comfortably. Some men feel it is their God-given right to expect a 5-star dinner ready for them as soon as they return, after getting the daily cocktail served by wifey wrapped in whatever he wants her to wear. The entitlement mentality is fostered in childhood. See point above re princesses. When I was in Saudi, little Arab boys are raised in an entitlement atmosphere that would scare the fur off a grizzly bear!

Final note: maintenance factor. Women (and men) are often rated according to high- or low-maintenance. I wonder what it says about a person who is high-maintenance. Having met a number of women…and a couple guys who would never admit it…I resolved long ago to run away at warp speed from anybody who is “high-maintenance.” I wonder how this mentality or behavior manages to survive. It does not reflect well upon a person’s character.

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:21 pm 89. Alan Breck:

From childhood, I recall many women and men who chose to remain unmarried for reasons of their own. One was a man named Arthur who had been engaged to the love of his life who died of typhoid. He wanted no other woman and wasn’t gay. I had female relatives who chose not to marry as some men they liked were killed in WW I and nobody else would fill their hearts. It is sad but it is true.

People make decisions that are personal. Unless those decisions affect me, I ignore them completely. I am married and adore intelligent and brilliant women. That does not make my position right and that of others wrong.

Some women prefer stupid men, some men prefer stupid women. It is not my business. Some women prefer women and some men prefer men. Again, it is not my business until and unless such views are imposed on me. It is called freedom.

If this person has actual persecution against him, it is wrong. Simply being offensive is not illegal the last time I checked. I doubt he has been denied employment, housing or other things because of his marital atatus. It sounds like a minor complaint.

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:32 pm 90. kurt9:

Women, by their very nature, seem to have fewer outside interests and hobbies than men. Take anything from cross-country skiing to making things in a workshop in the garage, more men do these activities than women do. Also, men handle being on their own much better than women, which is why the vast majority of expats are men. Since women are less likely to do these kinds of pursuits, they often have difficulty understanding that many men derive as much life-fulfillment from these types of pursuits as they might from the relationship of marriage. This is a fundamental corundum of marriage.

I have also noticed that women, in general, have far less intellectual curiosity than men. For example, the life extension/cryonics/space development milieu of late 80’s SoCal was 90% composed of men.

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:49 pm 91. Peg C.:

I’m very happily married and so is my hubby (my first, his second). He doesn’t hang with friends per se; would rather be with me and his daughter’s family including the new grandbaby. But when I, as a married woman, look at single men (younger and older), knowing women the way I do I cannot imagine why those men would want to be married. These days most of us who are happily married consider ourselves and our mates to be unusual/outside the norm/fortunate beyond measure. This culture, the media, the mixed social-sexual messages, make it extremely difficult to find a person to commit to and make a happy life with. Expectations are totally unrealistic. On topic, I would NEVER presume to know what’s better for a single man than he does himself. I do believe these married women find his rejection of their lifestyle (on which they hang their self-worth) a palpable threat.

And the commenter who dissed the Lifetime Channel – right on! TV has created generations of utter nitwits. Lifetime and its ilk reinforce the silly softheadedness and collectivism of women (nevermind what Oprah has done). I’d rather watch Spike if I have to watch.

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:51 pm 92. Mikey NTH:

So many women have this entitlement attitude, like they deserve to be catered to in all ways by their boyfriends/husbands, but don’t have any obligation to be considerate of his wishes. It’s disgusting, and, IMO, displays a serious deficiency in both logical thinking and common courtesy.

I have noticed that attitude, and it is one of the reasons that I am (42 and not gay) and single.

Jul 14, 2008 - 12:59 pm 93. ddc:

Bagged and tagged. roflz.

Granted, some people should NEVER get married and if a man or woman is not or has never been married by age 47, there is something peculiar about them. Fussy, control-freak, fear of intimacy, and by 47 any person is completely set in his or her way and a bad bet for any woman or man. that’s a long time to not “share” one’s life or complete love in a give and take way.

Also after many years of marriage it is so unusual to think about what it’d be like to be single again. the grass always look greener and we’ll always assume someoneelse’s life is so much better than ours unless we live in it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 1:14 pm 94. Brutus:

I get together with the same bunch of 40-something male friends about every 3 weeks for Saturday evening cocktails and dinner. The five of us were all married 8 years ago, but only one remains in wedded “bliss”. Of the four divorced guys, I’m the only one that really got back into the dating world. The married friend’s wife has, as you might imagine, taken steps to reduce his time out with his single friends.

Let me tell you, after 22 years out of the single world, it’s SCARY. The “boys are ugly, throw rocks at them” mentality lurks just beneath the surface of every single woman I’ve met since my divorce. I was interrogated by all of them because, as a divorced man, I had to be damaged goods. I’ve called for the check before the apps were ordered after the insulting questions started.

Luckily, I met a lovely woman at the gym of all places. She’s in her forties, has never been married, and has never needed a guy to “complete” her. The added bonus is that she is beautiful and built like the college swimmer she was, which means all my married friends’ wives HATE her because she doesn’t exude “Hausfrau”!

Whether or no I get married again is another question; as Samuel Johnson said, second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.

Jul 14, 2008 - 1:17 pm 95. Kevin M:

Peg C:

“And the commenter who dissed the Lifetime Channel – right on! TV has created generations of utter nitwits. Lifetime and its ilk reinforce the silly softheadedness and collectivism of women (nevermind what Oprah has done). I’d rather watch Spike if I have to watch.”

That commenter was me, and you have now just become my new God.

Jul 14, 2008 - 1:25 pm 96. whiskey:

I am shocked no one gets the reason why married women find single men a threat.

Married men have an interest in maintaining the basis for married society and families — better schools, safety, most of all treatment of women. Women bring in half the income or more in a married couple’s life, so naturally married men want good treatment for women. They favor policies that can benefit their wife.

A single man, however, has no ties or interests whatsoever to women. He doesn’t care if married women’s children suffer, they’re not his. He doesn’t have any. He’ll support measures that push women’s positions DOWN to elevate his own earnings advantage. He has no interest whatsoever in women’s issues, if anything he’ll be mildly hostile.

Of course never married men are a threat, a political threat, and to the degree that this grows in single-motherhood societies, women will find overt political expressions of men looking after their own self-interest. Which if they’re not married and tied to women, will very pointedly NOT include the interests of women.

Jul 14, 2008 - 1:43 pm 97. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Kevin M
RE: You….

“Some men feel it is their God-given right to expect a 5-star dinner ready for them as soon as they return, after getting the daily cocktail served by wifey wrapped in whatever he wants her to wear.” — Kevin M

….been paying ENTIRELY too much attention to the part played by Robert Morse in that classic 60s American sex farce, A Guide for the Married Man.

RE: Entitlemints, Anyone?

“The entitlement mentality is fostered in childhood. See point above re princesses.” — Kevin M

I’ve got the entire 90s collection of Dilbert ‘mints; Manage-Mints, Improve-Mints, Perform-Mints, AND the ever coveted Accomplish-Mints. But there is, to the best of my knowledge, no Entitle-Mints. Maybe Scott Adams will revive the line.

RE: The Saudis

“When I was in Saudi, little Arab boys are raised in an entitlement atmosphere that would scare the fur off a grizzly bear!” — Kevin M

Non sequitur, compadre. This is America. Not the Faisel family business. But I WOULD like to see what happened if some American woman tried this stuff in their household. Indeed. I think we DID see such an event just this last 12-month period. Something about some American magazine bimbo being carted off by the ‘proper authorities’ for sitting in a Starbucks(?) coffee shop with a man who was (1) not her husband nor (2) a blood relation.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:15 pm 98. Rob:

From Rvastr “Because I’m neither liberal nor religious, meaning I don’t think I need to be “saved” by God…or Obambi.”

Haha, but I ended up marrying a liberal religious person, and i’m of the opposite nature. Maybe opposites attract. Or maybe by the time you get to mid-30s there isn’t much fruit left on the tree.

I did notice as I was growing up that the really attractive and otherwise marriable types are snatched up in college. The other thing I noticed is that women are either attractive or intelligent or a mix (and same goes for men). The totally hot nuclear physicist that always helps James Bond? Sorry, only in the movies.

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:23 pm 99. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. I make better martinis and cook better meals than the distaff.

However, I admit that when it comes to things done with flour and the oven….SHE RULES!!!!!

First place ribbons from the state fair to prove it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:26 pm 100. RG:

I’ve got to say that I’m pretty supprised by the number of comments that amount to “women are bad.” Without going into the merits of any particular complaints, that line of thinking just seems more than a little silly.

I liked Whiskey’s post just above, I’m not sure I agree, but at least an interesting and somewhat logical idea. I would add the basic evolutionary idea that “packs” that pressure individuals to enter into child rearing units would probably do better than packs that allow healthy accomplished adults to put their resources into self-pleasure rather than child rearing.

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:34 pm 101. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rob
RE: Uuuuhhhh…

“The totally hot nuclear physicist that always helps James Bond? Sorry, only in the movies.” — Rob

The American Mensa Annual Gathering is in Denver next month.

Good hunting and good luck….

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:36 pm 102. Moe:

The tendency evident among so many commentors here, to pathologize singles, really goes too far. – e.g. if you’re not married by age N, you must have abnormal condition Z.

These attitudes remind me of those I’d encountered when I lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia. They were often held by some drone housewife typically 32 going on 45 who had no experience in the world beyond the few years that she’d lived on her own after college. For her, ‘everyone’ married in the same narrow range of ages, and had kids 2 or 3 years later. Single women were ’sluts’ and single men were ‘boys’.

And while I admire the commitment and sacrifice that couples make to maintain a family, I have to wonder whether these attitudes, which they often promote too aggressively, arise from the need to justify their own choices.

*If you want to have some fun w/ this element. The next time you go to a social event where they’ll dominate, bring a hot and successful 30 something woman – the more flirtatious the better. Hellooo Kitty.

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:39 pm 103. Kevin M:

Hey, Chuck(le):

I have read your posts and enjoyed them very much. Very sorry to learn that you have taken umbrage at a few of my comments.

If I may…

My comments re the entitlement mentality were not intended to demonstrate or illustrate how men are the primary criminals, but merely to show that men and women are not exclusive victims/perpetrators of such beliefs. You show me a man with a messed up mentality, and I’ll show you a woman with the same. Vice Versa.

Re Saudi Arabia: Same issue, compadre. The entitlement mentality is something that anybody can fall victim to. American Princesses are the current topic, but my post was intended to merely show that males can also be gulled into this line of belief. I realize this is America, and not Faisel’s playground.

I personally like your line of thinking. I am perplexed that you have taken issue with some of my examples. And as for Starbucks and the carting-off business, I lived there for 4 years. With all due respect, don’t lecture me on a matter I had to live with for 4 years. I damned well know what happens in Saudi Arabia. I am currently writing a novel about the experience. It is not a pleasant task.

No offense, dude.

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:39 pm 104. Are 47 Year Old Single Men Inherently Suspect? « Blog Entry « Dr. Melissa Clouthier:

[...] Dr. Helen talks about old single guys and the discrimination they face. Perhaps it’s just my experience at church, but the normal older bachelors were the exception to the rule. The rule being this: single men left to their own devices for that many decades, many still caring for their mother (who usually happened to be the only woman in their lives) were a tad weird. [...]

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:53 pm 105. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Kevin M
RE: Not So Much….

“Very sorry to learn that you have taken umbrage at a few of my comments.” — Kevin M

…umbrage. Just a different perspective and a bit of odd humor that sprang into my mind, i.e., the ‘mints’ think.

I’m certain that some men may think they are entitled to a 5-star meal upon return from a hard day’s work. But I doubt if the percentage, here in the States, if all that high. Probably more in states where Sharia rules, but not here.

RE: Life In Arabia

I’m familiar enough with Islam to realize the accuracy of the reports; yours and others.

But again, I point out that THIS is America. Not Faisel-land. Discussion of male ‘entitlement’ mentality from the Muslim perspective doesn’t help much in THIS venue. UNLESS you’re trying to explain to women how good they’ve got it here. But if that is the case, I suspect you’re report will fall upon deaf ears. The feminist mob doesn’t really care much for reality.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The feminist movement died a milli-second after the first impact. -- Niven and Pournelle, Lucifer's Hammer]

Jul 14, 2008 - 2:58 pm 106. Galinar:

Re. Lifetime – I consider it a great teaching tool – helps me to show my daughters what ‘B’ movie means, including bad acting, stupid plots and the shameful way they treat man. And it’s free for a change.:)

Jul 14, 2008 - 3:20 pm 107. Jeffus:

In patriarchal ancient Greece and Rome, the most dangerous force for mischief and evil was a sexually mature unmarried female. Even widows were expected remarry within a reasonable period of time.

In matriarchal America, the most dangerous force for mischief and evil is a sexually mature unmarried male. Successful and happy is even worse.

I think most men get married when they find someone they don’t want to lose. A relatively cold equation, but this is still a competitive life.

Stop being afraid of women and ask for a pre-nup. Jeez dude, I think you’re running out of time. You’ll be tottering around Florida wearing an ascot, watching everyone else take their grandkids to the beach, and dodging social security floozies.

Jul 14, 2008 - 3:21 pm 108. Twok:

“Stop being afraid of women and ask for a pre-nup. ”

What is wrong with that? Would that not save a man (and, indirectly, a woman), from a painful, expensive hell later? Isn’t it likely to actually *preserve* a marriage in some cases? Isn’t a relationship where this can be brought up a healthy one?

You seem to be totally OK with a court system where a man essentially welcomes the opportunity to get cleaned out by a woman, at her whim.

Jul 14, 2008 - 3:43 pm 109. ray_g:

I am a 52 year old never-married male. Since I was in my 30’s I’ve been asked why I have never been married, over time the reply I’ve developed is “I’m not really sure”, which is a truthful answer. I have noticed that women seem more puzzled than men, but I haven’t noticed much difference in the responses between single and married women. Well, a little, I have noticed that married women AND married men are more eager to try to fix their married friends, male and female, up. I think that is more a couple vs. single thing. See Joe Jackson’s song “Happy Loving Couples”.

Jul 14, 2008 - 4:07 pm 110. Cassy Fiano » Why do women shun single older men?:

[...] Dr. Helen had a reader ask her an interesting question today: Dear Dr. Helen, [...]

Jul 14, 2008 - 4:12 pm 111. Steve:

I was married in my 20’s, now single in mid 30’s. I have no desire to marry currently or date. I’m not bitter, or mad, I’m not afraid of what a woman will do to me. I’m simply enjoying the years I’ve had to clear my head and take advantage of the space I’ve needed to better get to know myself and hence learn to like myself more and more. It’s a very pleasant state to be in, to be good friends with oneself.
But I have no macho issue with men who state they are afraid of women or marriage. In fact they’re very bold to admit as much.
A few things I prefer to do alone that are public events….Car races, blues bars, walking the dam at the lake.
I also enjoy family and friends around for most events but really enjoy the alone time as I take in the above stated events.
Yes I’ve had people pity me, especially women. (A testament to women’s gender specific good qualities?)
I understand why and explain their pity is wasted as I specifically choose to be “alone” at those events. (Hardly alone at races and blues bars however).
As for women trying to set me up…OH YEAH there have been plenty.
But they’re individuals and have different motives. Some genuinely concerned I may be lonely and sad, others simply controlling and pushy.
I would like to say that women like Helen and Debbie, Jane, Melissa, Rebekah probably have little idea what hope they bring to suffering men and boys with their sensible and reasonable and frankly kind-hearted approach to gender issues.
Newcomers to men’s rights activism are often bitter and completely without hope that such women exist, and in a very sad state. I don’t imagine there’s any greater gift in life one can give than that of hope.
Hope is the one thing we rely on most in life, and the one we least notice until it’s gone.

Jul 14, 2008 - 5:06 pm 112. Chrisd:

Not enough attention paid to the gent who posted regarding how the so-called Third World is breeding Western Europe (and America) into oblivion. I’ll probably wink out a few years before it happens. But there will still be a few wretchedly unhappy “princesses” around to witness the debacle.

A diversion to Africa: Travel there quite a bit. American and English men (and women) are the butt of jokes among poverty striken African men. Poor as they are, and doubtless will remain, unlike the men of US and UK they have “cool.” Which is worth a whole lot more to them, and their women, than a fat account.

Every American man a James Dean by year 2010 or its all over for the Republic. No matter who is president.
Chris

Jul 14, 2008 - 5:25 pm 113. Jack:

37. Never married. Here’s how the conversation goes:

Married Female: “Don’t you want to get married?”
Jack: “What’s in it for me?”
MF: “Well, don’t you want to have kids?”
Jack: “No.”
MF: “Well, do you want to remain alone?”
Jack: “I’m never alone. I have a dozen girls in my phone I could call right now. I have dinner with buddies at least three times per week.”
MF: “Yeah, but … girls in your phone . . . that’s not a real relationship.”
Jack: “Okay, back to my original question: What’s in a ‘real relationship’ that I don’t already have?”
MF: “Emotional support. Financial support.”
Jack: “I don’t need either of those.”
MF: “What about your duty?”
Jack: “My duty?”
MF: “Yeah, your duty as a man to marry a woman and raise children. There are lots of good women and children out there that need a husband and father.”
Jack: “And what about my happiness?”
MF: “It’s not about you! Duty comes first.”
Jack: “So I should get married and have a family even if I don’t want to and don’t enjoy it?”
MF: “Yes, I think you should.”
Jack: “Um… I think I’m going to stick with happiness over this ‘duty’ you describe.”
MF: “Okay, so what about love? Don’t you want to be in love?”
Jack: “To love me requires a respect and understanding that I like my freedom, so anyone who truly loves me and understands me would not want to marry me.”
MF: “So that’s it? You’re just going to live the bachelor life forever?”
Jack: “Probably.”
MF: “You’re such a pig!”

Jul 14, 2008 - 6:08 pm 114. John Samford:

Swish! Stacy scores a 3 at the buzzer.
Female emancipation is a social experiment. A new one as such things go. It was created by technological advances that replaced chemical energy (muscles basically, with storage being in some form of mechanical device) with electrical energy ( with chemical storage).
Now that life isn’t so dependent on muscle mass female qualities have a chance to come forth.
Right now Western society is at the stage where freeing females is just starting to pay off.
The Problems we are seeing are personal adaptions to a new social norm. Females have a new place in society ( or at least a modern, 21st century society) but they haven’t given up their old role, which was producing the next generation. So the ladies are being asked to be in two places at once. We all know how well that works out.
IMHO, society won’t stabilize until we take both males AND females out of the baby making loop. Not feasible yet, but give it another generation.
Remember, as bad as the boys and gyrrls have it in this brave new world, the children have it worse.
Half a million years of child rearing lore has been tossed in the trash and is being hauled away.

Jul 14, 2008 - 6:25 pm 115. Jeffus:

Twok

nothing wrong with a pre-nup at all. I’m not even sure what you’re reacting to.

Jul 14, 2008 - 6:35 pm 116. Paul Stokes:

What motivates a married women to bring up the subject to a single man may be how happy she perceives her own husband to be. If she perceives him as happy in their marriage, then I would think that her motivation is essentially friendly and helpful. But if she perceives her husband as unhappy or even indifferent, then the motivation may be something different altogether.

As a husband who was completely surprised, even flabbergasted, by how wonderful it was to be a father, and having a wife who knows how I feel about our (now grown) children, I could see her being solicitous of a single man who probably hasn’t a clue of what it means to be not simply a husband but a father.

Jul 14, 2008 - 6:49 pm 117. bt:

Married 18 yrs before i was told get out of the house you paid for, leave your wallet. I had the house back in two years, and have raised two daughters (well, the youngest is still 17, it’s a forever journey) in it. So it’s not like i walked away…

I like a joke i heard somewhere, which i repeat at the risk of censorship:

If it floats, f&$Ks or flies, rent it.

Working well so far…

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:45 pm 118. Bernard Chapin:

Dr. Helen,
You are an acute and observant student of human nature and I greatly appreciate your columns.

Jul 14, 2008 - 7:55 pm 119. Porphyrogenitus:

“society won’t stabilize until we take both males AND females out of the baby making loop”

*Shudder*

Yes…oh what a brave new world it will be, to have such people in it.

*cold chill*

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:06 pm 120. DJ:

@ Wiskey

I am shocked no one gets the reason why married women find single men a threat.

One possibility when you’re shocked that no one else sees the obvious truth: you’re wrong. No doubt, though, your views exemplify a sort of feminism, or feminized thinking, that’s part of the underlying problem. (Which isn’t “Jim” and his minor angst, but what social forces underlie it.)

Married men have an interest in maintaining the basis for married society and families — better schools, safety, most of all treatment of women. Women bring in half the income or more in a married couple’s life, so naturally married men want good treatment for women. They favor policies that can benefit their wife.

In your view, married men want good treatment for women very generally — not just for their wife. As we’ll see, though, you think single men only want good treatment for themselves. As if we didn’t care about anyone else, or any political cause other than self-interest.

A single man, however, has no ties or interests whatsoever to women. He doesn’t care if married women’s children suffer, they’re not his. He doesn’t have any. He’ll support measures that push women’s positions DOWN to elevate his own earnings advantage. He has no interest whatsoever in women’s issues, if anything he’ll be mildly hostile.

There: as a single man I supposedly have no ties or interest in women. That’s obnoxious and obviously false about many of us. We have friends, sisters, mothers, etc. No doubt there are purely self-interested people, and perhaps married people who are selfish are selfish in tandem. (Though it seems naive to think selfishness wouldn’t infect the martial relationship as well for such people.) But why do married people supposedly have solidarity for other married people but single men aren’t interested in other singles; only in ourselves.

And what are “women’s issues”? Do you have social issues in mind? Abortion maybe? You do realize that many women are pro-life, right, especially married women? If abortion is a women’s issue, then it’s one women are on both sides of — and many single men are more pro-choice than plenty of women anyway. Or by women’s issues do you mostly mean: the economic interests of women? Of course, rich married couples have different economic interests than poor ones. Did you think about one-earner families? I’m sure you can find a generalization here that’s true, if you weaken it enough, but then the idea that single men, as a class, don’t care about women is just an ugly crock of bull.

Of course never married men are a threat, a political threat, and to the degree that this grows in single-motherhood societies, women will find overt political expressions of men looking after their own self-interest. Which if they’re not married and tied to women, will very pointedly NOT include the interests of women.

It’s quite instructive, I think, that you think single men of all political varieties are, alike, opposed to those of women. Consider the elderly who live in retirement communities. Are they too women’s political enemies? Are they too purely self-interested? Do married people care about others outside of the family, in your opinion? That’s quite a virtue to ascribe to the married alone.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:23 pm 121. jesse:

Kevin M,
Re: the northeast…it’s true. I’m a native Arkansan who spent some time in Illinois (Chicago and other parts) during college, then lived in Maryland for a few years before moving to the Boston area recently. I always took for granted how “genuine” midwesterners and southerners are and never really noticed it until I moved out here and quickly noticed the lack of it. The pace of life is just completely different, as are the attitudes…and not for the better.

For the record, I’m 29 and have no intention of getting married, at least not in the near future. Singleness ain’t so bad once you accept it. It has its ups and downs, but what lifestyle doesn’t? As they say, the devil you know is better than the one you don’t…

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:28 pm 122. Scoobysmart:

I remember getting pressure to marry in my early thirties. Many women, especially the wives of my newly-married friends saw me as a threat. I decided I better get myself married or I would be branded as some kind of loser. So I married a beautiful woman, had a wonderful son, got a ridiculously expensive house and all the cars and things to go with it. To make a long story short, my wife treated me like an employee, ignoring me and my son for years while she talked business on her cell phone 18 hours a day.

After seven years of abusing me, she filed for divorce. Now I’m single again and trying to figure out life all over again. I’m facing discrimination by my friend’s wives because I’m single. I’m glad I got myself married and made my son, who I adore. But right now it is difficult being shunned and treated poorly by married friends. These women are worried their husbands may be influenced to leave them. And although I would never encourage a friend to leave his wife, the abuse of power and control in the relationships of several of my friends is gross and blatant.

I agree with the posts describing the social experiment of women coming to power, trading roles with men, and all the negative outcomes of it. I have lived it and it was absolutly surreal. What has happened to us in just two generations is the reversal of roles has destroyed the balance that existed for all of human history as we know it.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:49 pm 123. Fatcat:

Marriage is a 3-ring circus – engagement ring, wedding ring and Suffering.
– Rodney.

Been there, done that.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:52 pm 124. Dark Helmet:

And so you must ask her, if you’re so happy in your marrige, why are you over here asking me about being single?

Women are always looking for ‘eternity’ to when it comes to love. Well, here’s ‘eternity’, that’s the time it takes you to go get me a sandwich after we’ve “made love”. Shut up and start banging some pots & pans.

Jul 14, 2008 - 8:58 pm 125. Joshua:

Re: pre-nups – as some commentators pointed out on this other Dr. Helen post, pre-nups often turn out not to be worth the paper they’re printed on.

But I digress… I’m 37, straight and single by choice, with no regrets. So far I’ve yet to catch any grief over it, but then that probably has a lot to do with my knack for staying off most women’s radar. I originally chose this lifestyle as a harmless form of youthful rebellion, but over the years as I’ve observed relatives, friends and coworkers get shafted in marriage and divorce, it’s occurred to me that I made the right choice, even though I had no idea at the time just how right it was.

If you’re happily married, consider yourself lucky. Today marriage is a high-stakes gamble at best, except that it’s not just your money at risk but also your happiness and sanity. You’ll probably have better luck going to Vegas and plunking down $10K to enter the World Series of [a certain card game that will likely send the spam filters into high gear if I mention it by name]. And even if you bust out there, at least you’re only losing your money.

Jul 14, 2008 - 9:22 pm 126. Jack:

I think that the fear of becoming your wife’s servant or ‘employee’ is genuine and legitimate.

Many of the married men that I know have found themselves in domestic situations which can be described in this way. They work 40+ hours a week, probably another 20 on domestic duties, and are still denied all but the most trivial opportunities to pursue their personal interests.

But I don’t think that their wives have created this situation by design – I think that it arises from the attitudes that many women have towards men (i.e. that we’re immature, lazy, unperceptive …). So when it comes to the question of whether she should ‘let’ her husband do something, she assumes that it’s in his best interest to direct him to more productive activities, which just happen to suit her own.

The funny thing is that if it were husbands dictating to their wives in this way, they’d be regarded as being abusive.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:24 pm 127. JKB:

Ah, yes. The “interrogation”. Having been on the receiving end more than a few times, I suppose the “social cancer” treatment is because women tend to only want what other women have or have had. Every man knows that he attracts more female attention when he is with a woman than when he is alone. A man being never married or, dare I say, in a LTR, confounds a woman. She has no idea how to handle a man who hasn’t been vetted by another woman, so to speak. It is alien for her to consider that the man isn’t damaged for not being “in a relationship” and that he might have avoided being “bagged and tagged” by his own volition. No, the never-married man must have been passed on by earlier women for a reason and therefore damaged in some way.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:41 pm 128. RAH:

My God what a narcissistic generation we have. All about me and why should I love and marry a woman and have children? Men and women are different genders for a simple biological reason: to have children and perpetuate humanity. Women are vulnerable when they are no longer sexually attractive. A male that has shunned the married state is a threat to her marriage and her family. Her husband may decide to wander, pick up a 20 year old.

The wife is now 50 % poorer if they both worked. If she devoted her marriage years to children and family and did not earn any money, her children and her are going to the poor house. It is not easy to make up 20 years earning power and get a high paying job and pay the mortgage after not being in the workforce.

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:42 pm 129. sestamibi:

Humans, male and female, “gotta love ‘em.” So much suspicion, resentment, regret, etc. from both sides. Maybe it’s the Maslow’s Hierarchy (not sure if I spelled that right) that my husband talks about — that is, the minute you don’t have to worry about the important, tangible basics such as food, shelter, etc., you have the time, energy and interest to worry about the abstract and unimportant issues, such as what other people think of you. Why does someone’s (possibly) bad opinion of you matter?

Jul 14, 2008 - 10:47 pm 130. Another Jim:

I am reminded by this article and some of the comments of a Jack Lemon/Terry-Thomas/Virna Lisi comedy, “How To Murder Your Wife,” made in 1965.

For those who have not seen it, the story revolves around a happily *unmarried* cartoonist, who after a drunken bachelor party wakes up next to a beautiful Italian woman (Lisi), who speaks no English and happens to be his new wife (it’s complicated). And things begin to slide downhill for him from there.

The comedy is classic (and only mildly chauvinistic, BTW) and includes a hillarious scene where Lemon is working out at his private mens-only health club (yes, they had them back then), and Lisi, trying to find out what he is up to, storms the place, at the instigation of his lawyer’s wife.

I won’t spoil the ending, but the phrase “the goop from the gloppeta-gloppeta machine” will forever ring in my memory.

I’ve been married for 35 years, and the comments and complaints and issues raised here about single men were the same as those I faced way back then, when my hair was dark brown (and I had a lot more of it!), carried fewer pounds, and was single.

Some thing never change.

Jul 15, 2008 - 2:22 am 131. shaun fischer:

As a 46 yr old lifelong bachelor I understand fully the comments written here.I was raised old fashion style in that a man was to have a foundation before marriage,thus by the age of 19 I had a great job and had bought a home.A 1931 bungalow in old town across the street from the University.I then spent my early 20’s working two jobs and refurbishing this great old house.Dating? Sorry, they would say,you don’t have enough money to date me in the style I’m acustomed to.They were young and wanted to party all weekend at clubs and concerts and skiing at the lakes ect.I was putting extra cash into a home and building that foundation, but they didn’t get that as I said we were young.Then in my 30’s suddenly these same women were all over me,of course they were by then divoced with kids,or single with kids,had deadbeat dads and they were working hard to just put food on their tables.So a nice looking Man who was stable and owned his own home in a desirable neighborhood,was just the meal ticket they were looking for!But by then I’d had an awakening.I loved being single I could do What I wanted,Whenever I wanted to without hesitation.Now in my mid 40’s I am having a great time!women my age are stable,kids grown and most like me like being single.And their Ideal man is one with a pulse.I may get married one day like my Great Uncle who was a lifelong bachelor who married his girlfriend of 30 yrs when they were in thier 80’s.Of course a year later he ran her over with his car,wich he said was an accident,so maby I won’t.

Jul 15, 2008 - 3:03 am 132. Steve:

per Shaun…..”I may get married one day like my Great Uncle who was a lifelong bachelor who married his girlfriend of 30 yrs when they were in thier 80’s.Of course a year later he ran her over with his car,wich he said was an accident,so maby I won’t.” Buwahahahahahahahahahahaha

Jul 15, 2008 - 3:33 am 133. QWERTY:

—It shouldn’t be surprising that that environment encouraged manipulation, obsession with petty things and insecurity. Without any chance to build power and influence in the real world, a woman could only build status in her private world by manipulating others. Without the right to own property or deal in business, ambitious women could only advance by pushing their husbands to greater pursuits. And with the legal status of livestock, women were understandably insecure, knowing their entire world could come crashing down at any moment because of a husband’s death, injury or unfaithfulness—–

Let us assume they(women) have acquired the power of manipulation to deal with “patriarchal”
men. But an individual will never consent to loose any sort of power. I can safely claim that women would still use this talent of manipulation, inpite of their empowerment.

It would be interesting to have a survey on whether professional wives still use sex as a power on their husbands

Jul 15, 2008 - 4:01 am 134. Paula R. Robinson, M.D.:

Here’s an unsolicited piece of advice. It will work for young men as easily for the older bachelor who is at least testing the notion of pairing up. Eschew the company of women who seem interested in whether or not you are going to pair up – with them, with their daughter, with their friend. Encouraging these women to orbit in your social space will effectively blind you to the existence of women who are otherwise. Go, instead, where women go who have no interest in making men do what they would not. Younger? Go to the library or the animal shelter. Older? Go to the botanical gardens or a prayer service. Find something that doesn’t bore you horribly that attracts women of your age to come and do something (not stand around with drinks). Gradually get to know these retiring individuals. You may find a life’s partner, or maybe just a bridge partner. Either way, you’re richer.

Jul 15, 2008 - 5:08 am 135. Lea:

I’ve got to say that I’m pretty supprised by the number of comments that amount to “women are bad.”

I’m not. Every time one of these topics starts on this site I feel like I’ve wondered into the he-man woman haters club.

Might I kindly suggest that the men who have all these problems with gold digging, bitchy women are quite possibly just making poor choices and should stop lambasting all women because they’ve met some bad ones? Would you guys like it if women ran around accusing all men of being just like their nasty ex-boyfriend/husband? You don’t like it, I’m sure. Well, women don’t like it either.

Men make bad choices and then they are highly suspicious of the other women in their lives and probably drive off many of the good ones with their attitude. I went out with a guy once who had some idiotic door test, that quite frankly made no sense in an electronic age, with which he judged whether a woman was kind or something. Meanwhile, I’m sure he thought he was a prince, but he was terribly inconsiderate and selfish. I”m not saying there aren’t women like that out there, but there are men out there who are not any better and it’s up to you (or me or whoever) to be able to distinguish the good from the bad.

Jul 15, 2008 - 5:17 am 136. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lea
RE: Bad Choices

“Men make bad choices and then they are highly suspicious of the other women in their lives and probably drive off many of the good ones with their attitude.” — Lea

Indeed. I made two of them. Both of them looked alright, but both of them ‘changed’.

Ignorance on my part. I’ll admit to that. So I learned to be a LOT more cautious. And I counsel others to be just as cautious.

And here you come claiming its wrong to do so?

Interesting…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. I’m VERY happily married. But the courtship was 7 years in length. People ‘change’ every seven or so years. Why do you think they titled that classic American sex farce The Seven Year Itch….

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:33 am 137. QWERTY:

–I’m not. Every time one of these topics starts on this site I feel like I’ve wondered into the he-man woman haters club.—

Lea,

Proclaiming that many women are not of marriage “material” is not misogyny.

A woman has many more duties to the society than just being a mother and wife.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:40 am 138. Chuck Pelto:

TO: QWERTY
RE: Actually….

“I’m not. Every time one of these topics starts on this site I feel like I’ve wondered into the he-man woman haters club.” — Lea

…I think she’s either (1) paranoid or (2) someone touched a nerve. Perhaps even both; the former because of the latter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.]

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:51 am 139. Anon 4:

This is not a guy thing. AS a woman who didn’t get married until 37, I dealt with both married and single men and women trying to set me up with both sexes, and/or assuming something was wrong with me because I was single, and wasn’t looking for a husband. It wasn’t malice, but there frequently was an underlying condescension. Two approached worked best for me:
a) honesty and thanking the sincere ones for trying to look out for/introduce me to nice people
b) telling the condescending ones I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than wake up next to someone like their spouse, ever.

Take the kindness of friends for what it is, and to hell with the others.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:54 am 140. Dave_T:

Lea said:

“Would you guys like it if women ran around accusing all men of being just like their nasty ex-boyfriend/husband?”…

Bingo. That is exactly what most men face in the dating/marriage game on a daily basis; that chip on the shoulder mentality that I see come out in any discussion of this nature. The whole “boys are ugly, throw rocks at them” attitude mentioned in an earlier post. It has a great deal to do with so many men like “Jim” are so unsure of themselves in their dealings with women, and why there are so many confirmed batchelors out there…

Ranting about “it’s all your fault because of your poor choices” is like blaming a mugging victim for walking down the wrong street at the wrong time. A man takes a leap of faith due to love, and a negative outcome is all HIS fault??? Talk about having your cake and eating it too; slag us for being selfish, noncomittal, and shallow, and then second guess our choices if we commit and get the shaft… What colour IS the sky in YOUR world?

I honestly don’t know how you can keep running around this room without tripping over the queen-sized elephant parked in the middle of it. It stands out like the tacky marquee lights on a Vegas casino. Where did the cold, manipulative, downright nasty behaviour I and others see on a daily basis from so many (not all) women come from? Why does no one dare to call them to account for it? Why is it celebrated as “empowerment”?

If I reject you because you weigh more than I do, have no interests beyond celebs and reality television, and have personal hygeine issues, I am considered “shallow”. If you reject me because I don’t make enough money, have a big enough home, or don’t have a six-pack, you are being “smart”, “refuse to settle” or are “looking out for your best interests”… Funny how that double standard works…

From what I see, most men want to have a reasonable debate about what is wrong with gender interaction today, and to find solutions. Unfortunately, a large number of women prefer an echo chamber, and go “lalalalalala I can’t hear you…” when they don’t get it…

How did it come to this?

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:26 am 141. Lea:

Ranting about “it’s all your fault because of your poor choices” is like blaming a mugging victim for walking down the wrong street at the wrong time.

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that people make bad decisions, both genders do, and then blame the ENTIRE gender. All women are terrible. All men are terrible. And it’s not good for any of us. And I see alot of that here in the comments.

…I think she’s either (1) paranoid or (2) someone touched a nerve. Perhaps even both; the former because of the latter.

Or possibly I’ve been reading the threads. I won’t trouble to pick out all the “women are horrible’ quotes, because I think you can see them for yourselves.

Indeed. I made two of them. Both of them looked alright, but both of them ‘changed’.

Ignorance on my part. I’ll admit to that. So I learned to be a LOT more cautious. And I counsel others to be just as cautious.

And here you come claiming its wrong to do so?
Of course not. I’m just saying that some men (and women, as I’ve said) come in with that chip on the shoulder and that is going to turn some decent folks off. I think in dating you have to be careful not to blame your current partner for your past partner’s sins. That’s not to say you shouldn’t learn from the past, just realize that the person you’ve just met is not responsible for it.

Jul 15, 2008 - 8:01 am 142. Bugs:

Bagged & tagged is better than screwed, blued & tattooed.

Jul 15, 2008 - 9:11 am 143. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lea
RE: Motivations

“…I think she’s either (1) paranoid or (2) someone touched a nerve. Perhaps even both; the former because of the latter.” — Chuck Pelto to QWERTY, regarding Lea

“Or possibly I’ve been reading the threads. I won’t trouble to pick out all the “women are horrible’ quotes, because I think you can see them for yourselves.” — Lea

Or maybe you’re reading too much into it, which would be indications of both items 1 and 2; I mentioned (above).

Or it could be that I just don’t see all that many people bashing women as a whole. Which could mean I’m ‘insensitive’. But then again, it might be another indicator that you are ‘over-sensitive’.

RE: Passing On Experiences

“Indeed. I made two of them. Both of them looked alright at the time, but both of them ‘changed’.

Ignorance on my part. I’ll admit to that. So I learned to be a LOT more cautious. And I counsel others to be just as cautious.

And here you come claiming its wrong to do so?” — Chuck Pelto to Lea

“Of course not.” — Lea

“I’m just saying that some men (and women, as I’ve said) come in with that chip on the shoulder and that is going to turn some decent folks off.” — Lea

No you’re not. Your opening statement was, and I quote….

“Every time one of these topics starts on this site I feel like I’ve wondered into the he-man woman haters club.” — Lea [Jul 15, 2008 - 5:17 am]

That pretty much sets the stage and tone. Especially that tripe about “he-man” combined with “woman haters club”. You’re reminding me of whatzhername, the little girl next door from Calvin and Hobbes; looking up at Calvin in his tree club-house.

“I think in dating you have to be careful not to blame your current partner for your past partner’s sins. That’s not to say you shouldn’t learn from the past, just realize that the person you’ve just met is not responsible for it.” — Lea

If that’s your point, may I suggest that in future engagements you tone down the rhetoric of your opening line. I’ve found that punching someone in the face before trying to communicate with them is not the most effective means of getting your point across. That is unless your whole point IS to give them a bloody nose.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Jul 15, 2008 - 9:34 am 144. zed:

“Would you guys like it if women ran around accusing all men of being just like their nasty ex-boyfriend/husband?”…

“Bingo. That is exactly what most men face in the dating/marriage game on a daily basis; that chip on the shoulder mentality that I see come out in any discussion of this nature. ”

“From what I see, most men want to have a reasonable debate about what is wrong with gender interaction today, and to find solutions. Unfortunately, a large number of women prefer an echo chamber, and go “lalalalalala I can’t hear you…” when they don’t get it…”

“How did it come to this?”

Or, they can come in and say something terribly clever like “I feel like I’ve wondered into the he-man woman haters club.” Wow, now that’s original. It was just as hilarious (not very) the FIRST 1000 or so times that I heard it.

Yes, men do want to have a REASONABLE debate, but women in general (Dr. Helen being an incredible exception) DO NOT WANT TO HEAR WHAT MEN HAVE TO SAY, and will accuse us of “misogyny” and “hating women.”

The reality is that I see more real misogyny in the culture every day – not the trumped-up overblown type of “well, just look at ‘Patriarchy’” or “not giving her enough compliments”, but deep down alienation toward women in general and loss of sympathy for their issues.

Dr. Helen is doing what more women would do if they were smarter – which is to actually listen to what men are saying and not jumping in with snotty comments making the persons themselves the issue instead of what they are saying.

To point directly to that elephant which has been mentioned, an ever growing number of men really don’t care whether they “turn women off” or not. It is interesting that whenever the subject of bachelorhood comes up that many people assume that it is involuntary or only undertaken for the worst of reasons.

I know that things have changed over the past 40 years, but my own personal experience is that the women I have known and dated were far, FAR, more interested and invested in marriage than either I or most of the other single men my age were – does anyone remember the whole “men can’t/are afraid to make a commitment” campaign? And, as I went through my 40s and into my 50s the women I encountered were increasingly desperate and crazy – because the ones left had been completely picked over and all the decent ones had been snapped up by the men left out there who are still marriage-minded.

I was willing to give women the benefit of the doubt for over 30 years. Doing so mostly got my mind messed with and once even resulted in a death threat. Now, I don’t do it so much any more. It certainly isn’t like women in general will take the initiative in dating, or GOD FORBID paying their own way. The more surly I am, the fewer nutso women I end up having to deal with.

With single women now in the majority in most countries of the Anglosphere, women who might like to get married some day, or women who already are married and might like to see their friends or daughters get married some day, would be well advised to take men a bit more seriously when they lay out the reasons why they are saying “Hell no, we won’t go.”

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:07 am 145. Dark Helmet:

Hey! I said I wanted extra tomato with this…. back to the pantry with you!

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:19 am 146. Sean:

Actually, I think most women are full of shit, so I don’t care what any of them think of single,or married men. My wife is free, and she can do whatever she damned well pleases. Same goes for me. That’s the name of that tune.

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:27 am 147. Twok:

This is not a blog for legal advice, but many people here seem to believe that a pre-nup will always be tossed out by a judge.

Does anyone have DIRECT experience? Not just heresay?

My understanding is that it is tossed out IF it is grossly unfair, or prepared without attorneys present on both sides.

But if done properly with attorneys on both sides, it should hold, no?

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:52 am 148. Fred X:

He is probably limiting himself to American women. We American men have been cheated in our woman dominated society. First American women are not by and large attractive. They are overweight and with an entitled disposition. Jim you need to go to southern Brazil where the women are feminine and very attractive. You will be stunned by the contrast with the USA. Because of market forces women in the USA feel they can do and say anything. If the man complains there are 100 behind you because the dating market supply is so bad!…but in Brazil the situation is reversed. They do not have a woman dominated society there. The reality is woman are meant to submit to their men and when this is not the situation they become poorly behaved like a domestic dog that is not kept in line by its human family it becomes disoriented.

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:53 am 149. RW:

This has an a very, very interesting thread. I appreciate all the folks putting their personal experiences out there. It’s interesting but as a guy over 40 who feels pretty attractive and happy about being a good person, I do feel that the messages women get through the media have made them so selfish that many are intolerable. And others are merely smart enough to make an effort to disguise it. But often they don’t even after a little bit of time.

One woman said to me that 90% of women get married for security. If so, then really it’s just a temporary economic arrangement and when economics change, so does the marital status.

Here in NYC, divorce is on the rise and many of them are driven by women who had husbands in the financial sector who have now take a hit and lost jobs. The men fight with the women about going back to work or spending less and the women refuse.

So it’s on to divorce.

What it must feel like to wake up to that. I can’t imagine and I have to say I don’t want to either.

One buddy married a very nice woman from back to college days She would never think divorce and even said she’d kill him before seeing that happen. As there has been ups and downs my respect for her is even greater. But then again, she is Catholic and believes in her responsibilities all around. And that’s more rare I guess.

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:57 am 150. Lea:

If that’s your point, may I suggest that in future engagements you tone down the rhetoric of your opening line.

Ah, I meant it as a joke, not a punch in the nose. Wasn’t there an old tv show with a bunch of kids in the he man women haters club?

I wasn’t speaking of this thread only, but it just seems like Dr. Helen’s comments have attracted a lot of angry men in general. Which is why I said I’m not surprised.

Ah well. Tone doesn’t always come out on the internet. Apologies if ya’ll are offended, it’s simply my observation.

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:04 am 151. Lea:

Yes, men do want to have a REASONABLE debate, but women in general

A reasonable debate about why women (except for a few wives of various men) suck in general? Some of them do suck. I don’t know how arguing about it is going to change that. I don’t beleive you can change people. You just have to make wise choices in your associations. I certainly don’t expect to change men.

If you want to talk about legal changes in who gets what after divorces, that’s fine, but that’s not changing anyone, it’s just protecting yourself in case you made a bad choice.

For the record, I’m not accusing anyone of misogeny, just anger.

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:09 am 152. zed:

“…it just seems like Dr. Helen’s comments have attracted a lot of angry men in general.”

Someone who is astute might recognize that as a sign that a lot of men are getting very angry about the cultural environment in which they have to live.

“Jokes” tend to work AFTER rapport has been established and people have some sense of what the person is really like, not before.

Which sex is supposed to be the “communications experts” again?

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:19 am 153. ddc:

much ado about nothing. as usual. nothing interesting here, move along

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:20 am 154. zed:

“For the record, I’m not accusing anyone of misogeny, just anger.”

Why are you “accusing” anyone of anger? Everything you say makes it clear that you completely reject any notion that such anger may have good reasons behind it.

This game has been used for a very long time, but it is wearing out. Focussing on the “anger” as means of preventing someone from getting at the issues that they are angry ABOUT doesn’t work any more.

So what if men are angry? Are you “accusing” them of anger as a way of dismissing or minimizing their concerns? Is it your position that none of what they say is legitimate?

It keeps playing out like a 3 stooges movie – women slam men, a verbal “punch in the nose”, and then feign stupidity and ignorance – “Oh my, why are you SO ANGRY?!!!”

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:34 am 155. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lea
RE: Yeah…Sure….Right….

“Ah, I meant it as a joke, not a punch in the nose. Wasn’t there an old tv show with a bunch of kids in the he man women haters club?” — Lea

Let the back-peddling and soft-shoe begin!

You walk in here with the same chip-on-shoulder ‘tude that you accused most others in this sort of thread of having. In other words, ‘projection’.

Then, when called on it, you say, “Just kidding.”

You remind me of one of my daughters who used to use that ploy on me, until I taught her better. She was pre-pubescent at the time. [How old are you, anyway? And your parents never taught YOU better?]

Then there was that woman, some years back, who said, “Men should be chemically neutered.” But when that little tid-bit of mentality hit the press, she suddenly was saying, “It was a joke! I was just kidding.”

I’ve learned a lot about women these last 57 years. And the ‘just kidding’ business is a common ploy amongst them when confronted with their own maladroit malfeasance.

Go peddle your ‘girl’ scout cookies elsewhere, babe. I’ve had my fill of them.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Prevaricator: A liar in the caterpillar state. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary]

P.S. [Or should that be BS?] Spread your wings and fly, babe….

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:39 am 156. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. You’ve good reason to be both (1) paranoid and (2) feel ‘touchy’ to these sorts of threads….

…you apparently are one of the women many of us are talking about.

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:58 am 157. Twok:

I am FAR more interested in being a father than a husband. Of course, one must take Step A before Step B.

Therein lies the conundrum, and why men are still willing to literally risk everything they have in the risky proposition of marriage.

Jul 15, 2008 - 12:04 pm 158. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Twok
RE: Excuses, Anyone?

“….why men are still willing to literally risk everything they have in the risky proposition of marriage.” — Twok

I was dropped on my head as a small child. [Note: Actually...bashed in the head with a baseball bat. First ever game at age 4. Did 10 days in Walter Reed—back when it was good—while the pulled the bone frags out of the gray matter. President Ike was down the hall from me; heart attack. I think he had it when he heard about my injury.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[We are ALL, brain-damaged, at birth. I think it has something to do with Original Sin.]

Jul 15, 2008 - 12:14 pm 159. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. About that ‘Original Sin’ business….

…..isn’t it ‘written’, that we men listened to women? And did what was ‘forbidden’?

Jul 15, 2008 - 12:40 pm 160. Steve:

Shaun – I assumed you were making a joke about your uncle running over her. I hope it wasn’t serious and if it was, that she is ok.

Jul 15, 2008 - 12:47 pm 161. D:

Got lost womewhere in the middle of comments, so I’d like to throw out an idea, that may/may not be new…

To married people, and often people in general, the idea of being “coupled” with someone is The Natural Order of Things.

What is done with that information, varies by the intent and character of the user. Some ARE wanting to hitch you with a friend, sometimes for your sake, sometimes for the friends. Some ARE threatened by you, because you represent something undomesticated, still “wild”.

But… you don’t seem to feel certain in your own skin, not comfortable. Look inside yourself and accept yourself as an individual. Then you can say with certainty what you will about “why aren’t you married?”.

If you wouldn’t mind them helping: wink and say “do you know someone who’s looking? are you looking?”

If they are getting on your nerves? “I can’t afford the pay cut…” or “It’s cheaper to pay upfront, then to pay them to go away…” Either one of thouse will get you the sour look, but it’s woth tweaking once in a while.

If you want to guilt ‘em? Stare at the floor and say: “She married someone else instead, so thank you so very much for bringing that pain back.”

If you want to nuke ‘em? Say: “She died.” Make sure you look them straight in the eye. One nasty piece of work I said that to, replied ‘I don’t know what to say…’

I said “no, you don’t.”

Be sparing with that one, because it’s so heavy. In my case it’s also true, and the few who found that out appologized profusely, and never mentioned it again.

For 46 years you have wlaked on you won two feet. Don’t stop now.

ps. could be worse… since I’m divorced I also fall into the damaged goods/something wrong category, but that also makes ‘em leave me alone…

Take control of the situation. It’s your life, after all.

Jul 15, 2008 - 2:08 pm 162. Lynn:

Lea “Every time one of these topics starts on this site I feel like I’ve wondered into the he-man woman haters club.”

Good observation and aome of the reactions to your posts prove that point exactly.

Jul 15, 2008 - 2:08 pm 163. michaelyi:

John Samford (at Jul 14, 2008 – 6:25 pm) stated, “Female emancipation is a social experiment.”

I have a question. When will male emancipation be tried?

Later, Samford opined, “Females have a new place in society but they haven’t given up their old role, which was producing the next generation. So the ladies are being asked to be in two places at once.”

Uh, “being asked” by whom? (Oh, and one mustn’t equivocate “females” with “ladies”. Few females ever were ladies and even fewer are today, due to generations of movement feminists denigrating the very concept of “ladies.”)

The reality is that nobody is asking women “to be in two places at once.” Rather, what’s going on is that so many women are demanding new privileges while being unwilling to release their grip on their traditional privileges and roles. Nor are many women willing to acknowledge that privileges come at the cost of accepting corresponding duties. Duties, as Jack’s comment (Jul 14, 2008 – 6:08 pm) illustrated, are typically thought of by women as obligations on men.

[bq]Phil Donahue was on the TV in the waiting room of an auto shop where I was getting an oil change. The topic was “Men who stay home with their kids.” When the mechanic came to tell me my car was ready, he stopped to watch the show. “What do you think of that?” I asked, fully expecting him to say something about child rearing not being “real man’s work”. “I’d love to do that,” he answered, “but my wife took that job. She didn’t even ask. She just took it.”[/bq]

[bq]If Men Have All the Power How Come Women Make the Rules by Jack Kammer, http://www.rulymob.com – publishers (1999) p88.[/bq]

I’ll close by noting that the women who endorse the Single Men Should Be ‘Bagged and Tagged’ point of view are very like the fabled male chauvinists whose opinion of a woman is that all she needs is a husband to straighten her out, then she’ll be happy.

Jul 15, 2008 - 2:15 pm 164. Kevin M:

Lea:

“I wasn’t speaking of this thread only, but it just seems like Dr. Helen’s comments have attracted a lot of angry men in general.”

Seems that way to me, too. On the other hand, you have to expect a lot of spillover onto a site that addresses social issues AND caters to a male perspective…addressed by a woman with a Ph.D. in psychology.

It’s like this on most web sites. Visit HotAir.com or other right-wing blogs, and most of the people are quite civil and intelligent…but then you get some that only quote the bible and lament for the nuking of the Middle East. Additionally, some people are more comfortable expressing themselves in rather–ahem–direct terms (no names given here).

I have always been aghast at so many “men’s issues” sites; either they’re porn or a pack of sissified latte drinkers beating drums. This is the first site addressing valid and important social topics that welcome a male perspective that I keep returning. If you know of another, tell me about it. The last time I saw Oprah or The View, I just about wanted to shoot myself.

Jul 15, 2008 - 2:41 pm 165. Lea:

This is the first site addressing valid and important social topics that welcome a male perspective that I keep returning. If you know of another, tell me about it.

I know some of the others won’t believe me, but I actually find it rather fascinating for that reason.

As for this bit:
“Ah, I meant it as a joke, not a punch in the nose. Wasn’t there an old tv show with a bunch of kids in the he man women haters club?” — Lea

Let the back-peddling and soft-shoe begin!…Then, when called on it, you say, “Just kidding.”…Go peddle your ‘girl’ scout cookies elsewhere, babe. I’ve had my fill of them.

Nice. Ahem: THE SKIT IN QUESTION:

Hearts are Thumps (1937)
The He-man Women-haters club was created by George Robert Phillips “Spanky” McFarland (1928/10/02- 1993/06/30) and immediately joined by Carl “Alfalfa” Switzer (1927/08/07 – 1959/01/29) and William ‘Buckwheat’ Thomas (1931/03/12 – 1980/10/10).
Spanky: Let’s start a club right now. The He-man Woman-haters. I’ll be president.
Alfalfa And I’ll be second president, and you can be third president.
Buckwheat Thanks.
Spanky Alright, get up and do exactly what I do. Put your hand on your heart, and raise your other hand. We, the He-man Woman-haters club…
Alfalfa and Buckwheat We, the he-man woman-haters club…
Spanky …promise not to fall for this Valentine’s business…
Alfalfa and Buckwheat …promise not to fall for this Valentine’s business…
Spanky …because girls are the bunk.
Alfalfa and Buckwheat …because girls are the bunk.

Alfalfa is almost immediately lured away by Darla Hood, leaving Spanky and Buckwheat as the sole members of this short-lived club. [00:01:27 - 00:02:27]

Jul 15, 2008 - 3:08 pm 166. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lynn
RE: Sooooo…..

“Good observation and aome of the reactions to your posts prove that point exactly.” — Lynn

…care to point out some of those ‘reactions’?

Or do you prefer obfuscation and innuendo?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The field behind rhetoric is oft mined with equivocation.]

Jul 15, 2008 - 3:57 pm 167. Mary Jackson:

Isn’t it better to value friends for themselves instead of worrying about why they are/aren’t married?

Jul 15, 2008 - 4:04 pm 168. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lea
RE: Is That….

“Ahem: THE SKIT IN QUESTION:” — Lea

…supposed to be a denial? Or a change of subject?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Jul 15, 2008 - 4:11 pm 169. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Do you ‘moon-walk’?

Jul 15, 2008 - 4:17 pm 170. zed:

“Ahem: THE SKIT IN QUESTION:

Hearts are Thumps (1937)

Alfalfa is almost immediately lured away by Darla Hood, leaving Spanky and Buckwheat as the sole members of this short-lived club.”

From the US Census Bureau – Female, all races, 2006
Total Married w/ Spouse Present %
119,966 59,528 49.6%

Things can change a bit in 69 years, eh?

It looks like “Jim” won’t have to worry about married women much longer, they are already in the minority and on track to become even more of a minority.

Women pretty much have the choice of dealing with men’s anger, or absence. Since women have made it very clear that they don’t need us, don’t want us, don’t like us, find us incredibly annoying to have around, and must be bribed to put up with our company, I predict that they will consider our absence to be preferable.

Jul 15, 2008 - 4:27 pm 171. kabud:

all this : an article and discussion demonstrates very bad changes that happened in USA in the last decades

destruction of family values

anyone who is honest to themselves and is not a child knows the only normal and rewarding relationship between sexes is MARRIAGE

trust me on this: i had my share of playboy activities, was married several times, not telling how many, and to this day feel this constant pressure from the fair sex))

but nothing NOTHING good ever came out of the kind of attitude i had before

Well with me it started when i and my first love got separated by the iron curtain

if not that- we would be happily married to each other until death would’ve parted us

But when i look at the young people of today :

i can tell you, i never EVER meet a decent candidate for marriage even though i meet sexy girls all the time

So the guy in the story tells the truth. This society is dieing and will disappear sooner then later. No love- no family- no future.

Jul 15, 2008 - 5:02 pm 172. Lea:

…supposed to be a denial? Or a change of subject?

Simply a clarification that you obviously have no interest in babe.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:05 pm 173. John Samford:

“Uh, “being asked” by whom? (Oh, and one mustn’t equivocate “females” with “ladies”. Few females ever were ladies and even fewer are today, due to generations of movement feminists denigrating the very concept of “ladies.”)”

Society. I would guess from your problem with labels, you don’t conceptualize very well.
A Female can be a lady AND a tramp, all within the span of seconds.
You need to get out more.

“I have a question. When will male emancipation be tried?”

I have a vague feeling that word doesn’t mean what you think it means;
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emancipation

emancipation (plural emancipations)

1. The act of setting free from the power of another, from slavery, subjection, dependence, or controlling influence
2. The state of being thus set free; liberation; used of slaves, minors, of a person from prejudices, of the mind from superstition, of a nation from tyranny or subjection.

US President Abraham Lincoln was called the Great Emancipator after issuing the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863.

Technically, Males invented emancipation and applied it to others. One presumes they invented slavery, tyranny and/or subjection first, but I have no evidence to support that theory.
Anyway, Males have been emancipated since day one, or shortly after the rest was invented.
In this case I was using the second meaning as in
“The state of being thus set free of a person from subjection.”

Anyway, it looks like you have issues either with the subject or my OPINION of it. That’s Kewl, the first amendment protects your OPINION just as it does mine.
I considered your remarks to be rude and nasty, so before I succumb to the temptation to reply in kind, might we agree to disagree and get on down the road?

Twok, I’m not an attorney. Nor even a lawyer, so I cannot give legal advice or at least charge you for it. That being said, and having been thru something similar it is my understanding that Contracts between individuals are subordinate to Local laws, which are subordinate to State laws, which are subordinate to Federal laws. Not sure if having a part of a contract violate a state law makes the entire contract null and void or just that part. I have been told both by attorneys that I trusted, so I think it has to do with what act the law is written under. Not sure, you need to check. I also think if you do the pre-nup in one state and the divorce in another it makes a difference. The Feds don’t mess with Divorce cases EXCEPT to fuk over the children.

Jul 15, 2008 - 9:22 pm 174. Dark Helmet:

Okay…. what is with the flippin’ pickle? You know I don’t like pickels and …. hey, where ya goin?

Jul 15, 2008 - 9:24 pm 175. transcended:

Dr. Helen sure has a large following of middle-aged (and upwards) men who’ve been wronged by women. Anger and bitterness definitely representing loud and clear.

Jul 15, 2008 - 9:56 pm 176. shaun fischer:

It was no joke Steve,but it was a pure accident.Theo was backing the car out of the garage and was trying to look over his shoulder to see,but he had limited movement in his neck so he didn’t have full view behind him.Now his blushing 83 yr old bride was outside of the garage waiting on the drivers side of the driveway.So while Theo was backing out she decided to sprint (As all 83yr old women can)to the passenger side of the car.Needless to say Theo idling the car out was faster.The neighbors heard screeming and yelling so went to investigate.Sil(his wife) was uncer the car screeming for help,Theo(who is stone deaf) was yelling out for Sil “DAMIT WOMAN WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU!!”WE GOT TO GO NOW!!”Sil ended up with abrasions and a twisted ankle only.A tough Women.

Jul 16, 2008 - 12:29 am 177. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lea
RE: Okay….

“Simply a clarification that you obviously have no interest in babe.” — Lea

…it was option #2, a change of subject. And you’re right. I’ve as much interest in your changing the subject as I have in most other liars I encounter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The liar's punishment is not in the least that she is not believed, but that she cannot believe anyone else. -- George Bernard Shaw]

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:42 am 178. sandy:

“Happily married” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing and you know it. The “moron” part of it is correct, though. I’m a single, never-married-by-choice female who will die before I will give half of my net worth to some loser…

Jul 16, 2008 - 6:00 am 179. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: sandy

Self-Description, Anyone?

Ignorance

““Happily married” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing and you know it.” — sandy

Projection

“The “moron” part of it is correct, though.” — sandy

and Bitterness

“I’m a single, never-married-by-choice female who will die before I will give half of my net worth to some loser…” — sandy

It all speaks for itself.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Any man who married her WOULD be some kinda ‘loser’.

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:00 am 180. Mick Stockinger:

I’m just astonished at the hostility towards the opposite sex, veiled and explicit. I’ve got married young and have stayed married. I still remember the process–I had a friend and our affection and mutual respect deepened to the point where we couldn’t–didn’t want to imagine a life without the other. We still feel that way 27 years later. I don’t think singlehood is natural for socially and mentally well-adjusted individuals. The long-term single-by-choice individuals I have come to know have only served to convince me that my conclusion is well-founded. My advice (which you didn’t ask for…)? Reverse the order: Friendship first, sex afterwards.

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:01 am 181. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Men
RE: If….

….you REALLY are interested in the indicators of a good woman.

I suggest you look over the criteria described in the latter part of Proverbs 31.

It begins with….

“Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.”

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. The description is provided by a good woman, the mother of the young man she is counseling.

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:04 am 182. House of Eratosthenes:

[...] blog, which she picked up by way of Dr. Melissa Clouthier, was yet another fascinating Dr. Helen advice column. Quoting advice-seeker “Jim” in full: Dear Dr. [...]

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:02 am 183. Mylai:

Oh Self-Appointed, Legend In His Own Mind, Wise Sage Of The Interwubs Chuck(le)wagon,

do praytell what sayeth Chuck(le)wagon’s Good Book And Last Word say of Virtuous Men so SHE have no need of spoil.

In other words…put more plainly, so she does not cheat. Virtuous Women do cheat for very much the same reasons a Virtuous man will cheat. Guys still tae the lead by a few percentages but women are catching up. Oh Darn that evil-family busting feminist movement. If we would have only stayed in the kitchen we might have completely avoided the possibility of world genocide! Maybe even global warming! At the very least, the rise in fuel prices! We’ve single-handedly spun the earth off its axis oh nooo!

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:14 am 184. Lynn:

Something else more precious then rubies CHUCK is wisdom and THIS is wisdom: to STRIVE NOT with a wo(man) without cause, if s(he) have done thee no harm.

Some people may be impressed with your quotes from the Bible but if the wisdom of it is not taken in by YOU for YOUR enrichment, it is just a paper weight or in your case a weapon to attack.

I am thinking that you should stop looking for others to follow the wisdom of the Bible and you should look to how it can make you a better man. In other words TAKE THE GIGANTIC BEAM OUT OF YOUR EYE FIRST.

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:40 am 185. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Mike Stockinger
RE: You….

“I’m just astonished at the hostility towards the opposite sex, veiled and explicit. I’ve got married young and have stayed married.” — Mike Stockinger

…are one of the fortunate, Mike. Keep up the good work.

RE: The Process

“I still remember the process–I had a friend and our affection and mutual respect deepened to the point where we couldn’t–didn’t want to imagine a life without the other.” — Mike Stockinger

How long was the process? For me with Susan, the process was seven years.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[One of the most dangerous classes in the world is the drifting and friendless woman. -- Sherlock Holmes]

Jul 16, 2008 - 10:09 am 186. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Mylai
RE: Again?

“Oh Self-Appointed, Legend In His Own Mind, Wise Sage Of The Interwubs Chuck(le)wagon,” — Mylai

As I’ve mentioned before….

….envy does not look good on you.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones. -- Proverbs]

Jul 16, 2008 - 10:14 am 187. kabud:

sandy: hahahaha))

it is very interesting psychologically that the only good thing about you and YOU yourself admit it:

is your money, probably not even yours but your parents

made my morning gal))

(this message was asking Sandy about her weight and looks, but was censored, may be because of that. I consider it troublesome that we have to close our eyes on the fact that american population is getting so fat, sick and overweight like mikle moore moron.
We MUST confront facts of FATTINESS with a fierce aggressiveness. people, STOP CHEWING NOW!)

Jul 16, 2008 - 10:31 am 188. zed:

“Mick Stockinger:

I’m just astonished at the hostility towards the opposite sex, veiled and explicit.”

Are you really “astonished”, or would “saddened” be a more accurate word? It’s been constantly growing in the culture for the at least the past 20 years, I would think it would have been very difficult to remain totally unaware of it.

Jul 16, 2008 - 10:55 am 189. Steve:

Shaun – Hi, thanks for letting me know! Still funny the way you put it, had to laugh again….Glad to hear it was minor and she was fine in the end. My mom and sister will get a kick out that story, the way you worded it. Take care.

Jul 16, 2008 - 11:24 am 190. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lynn
RE: Wisdom

Something else more precious then rubies CHUCK is wisdom and THIS is wisdom: to STRIVE NOT with a wo(man) without cause, if s(he) have done thee no harm.– Lynn

That’s true, too.

However, regarding the recognition of wisdom…

First, do you believe what is written in that old Book? Or are you just trying to throw something back at me out of your ignorance?

Secondly, how is it that your comment contradicts my citation from that old Book? Indeed, it doesn’t. And you know it.

Are you just trying to change the subject?

RE: Impressionism

Some people may be impressed with your quotes from the Bible but if the wisdom of it is not taken in by YOU for YOUR enrichment, it is just a paper weight or in your case a weapon to attack.– Lynn

Some people may. Probably a lot of people aren’t. But then again….some people may take the time to read that portion. And who knows….as the saying goes….

Worst thing that could happen here is someone could learn something.

RE: Biblically Speaking

I am thinking that you should stop looking for others to follow the wisdom of the Bible and you should look to how it can make you a better man. In other words TAKE THE GIGANTIC BEAM OUT OF YOUR EYE FIRST..– Lynn

Beams, eyes and other people.

I’ve seen SO many people misunderstand that citation. You’ve just added yourself to the list.

As for whether or not I’m a ‘better man’, you’ll have to ask the distaff about THAT. Considering that you don’t know me very well, I suspect your comment is just another ‘shot in the dark’ while blindfolded and shooting from the lip. Like your disingenuous comment in item one of this reply.

We call it grasping at straws. And a straw probably wouldn’t hold you up very well, if that’s all you’ve got to hold onto. It’s an act of desperation.

I recommend you read that old Book a bit more and pray for better understanding.

I read it daily. And early on Friday mornings, I get together with others who do the same and we compare notes.

But you could be right. Praytell….

….what is the ‘beam’ in my eye?

Please answer this question. As I notice you don’t seem to care to do such; you didn’t answer my previous one to you.

Why?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Know your enemy and know yourself and you shall never be defeated. -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War; mandatory reading at Benning School for Boys]

Jul 16, 2008 - 12:43 pm 191. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lynn
RE: Attack?

…in your case a weapon to attack. – Lynn

Tell us….

….how is citing the description of a virtuous woman an ‘attack’ on you? I wasn’t even addressing you, as the missive was “TO: Men”.

Was a nerve touched?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You can tell when you're getting close to the target, as they start throwing more flak at you. -- US Air Force truism]

Jul 16, 2008 - 12:56 pm 192. Lynn:

….what is the beam in my eye?

Chuck I think the beam is your eye is the tendency for you to point out the faults (that you perceive) in other peoples comments while contributing nothing to the dialogue. Trying to shut people down (Lea for instance) by calling them names (paranoid, envious, back pedaling etc.) in hopes to put them on the defensive when in fact they are making legitamate points worthy of consideration.

Only answer questions worthy of an answer – Lynn – Benning School for Mothers

Jul 16, 2008 - 1:35 pm 193. Lynn:

Your starting to repeat yourself Chuck with the touch the nerve thing. Be careful your beginning to be predictable which is dangerous and shows your getting sloppy.

Lynn
You can tell you’ve hit the wrong target when they call it friendly fire. Us Army truism

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:05 pm 194. Lynn:

Be careful Chuck your starting to repeat yourself with the “touch a nerve” comment. Your beginning to become predictable which is dangerous and shows your getting sloppy.

Lynn
You can tell when you’ve hit the wrong target when they call it friendly fire. US Military truism

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:29 pm 195. Mylai:

What on earth would I or anyone else for that matter be envious of you about? Your ability to add zero to any dialog? lol.

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:31 pm 196. Mylai:

Lynn,

Chuck(le) wagon is one of those intranet trolls who delights in, for lack of better, attention-whoring.

Between his bible-belting and kadud’s grand soviet conspiracy, I’d say they both get the bizarro award.

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:42 pm 197. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lynn
RE: Answer the Question….

…please.

And just because I say something more than once, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

As for ‘predictability’, a rational person might be able to use that. However….well…you know….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Speaking of ‘repeating’ oneself. Why is it you had to post, essentially, the same think twice?

Some people familiar with human psychology might think that a telling indicator of something.

P.P.S. As for your grasp of military truisms….I don’t see my ‘friends’ shooting at me. Only you and your ilk.

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:43 pm 198. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Mylai
RE: I Don’t Know….

“What on earth would I or anyone else for that matter be envious of you about?” — Mylai

….but you seem to be following me around with the same ‘fine’ whine.

Regards,

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. About adding anything to the discussion. All you’ve added so far is ad homs. Care to try for something a little more high-minded? Something other than complaining about what you are not?

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:45 pm 199. ddc:

Directed to Kabud -

Usually, people who are disgusted about something in themselves they attack others when they see it in them.

Kabud’s apparent obsession with assuming other PJM commentors (whom he does not know at all) as being fat is most likely due to his own morbid obesity. I believe it is called “transference” of which he ought seek therapy for.

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:57 pm 200. Mylai:

Good point ddc. Bravo.

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:02 pm 201. Lynn:

There you go misconstruing my truisms Chuck. I am acusing YOU of hitting the wrong target. Someone writes a comment. You attack. They try to clarify what they meant. You attack. They further try to move the dialogue along in a friendly respectful manner. You attack. Do you see now? The people who are commenting are not your enemy therefore it is friendly fire.

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:26 pm 202. MOGS:

Lest we forget, there are some married women out there who are just that insecure – they do see the single guy friend of their husband as a threat, as someone who will put “funny ideas” into his head.

I agree that most likely what the reader is experiencing is the “sizing up for matchmaking” scenario, but, he ought to take a look at his buddies, and if there’s a “kept” man, a cowed milquetoast “yes dear” fella in there, I guarantee the wife seems him as a threat.

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:45 pm 203. shaun fischer:

Sandy,your are right about the moron thing . But please! He could be a plumber,or some other Blue coller worker,while you could be a fortune 500 CEO,and in the divorce he’ll end up being the one to lose everything!! Not alot in your world but all he has. It’s NEEver about the money, just your self centered narsistic revedge.I feel sorry for you, but I have nothing but contempt for that excuse of a Metrosexual “so called MAN” who groveled at your feet. Do yourself a favor. And find a real man,one who isn,t interested in flavor of the month Opra crap!One who respects you for you..BUT IN RETURN , espects THE SAME IN RETURN!!!

Jul 16, 2008 - 4:19 pm 204. kabud:

ddc:
no you wrong
my weight did not change since i was 18
and it is 155 at 6′1

yes, i am a sport))

se, i came from the country where women are very beautiful and people are not fat and what i find in US is only NYC has more or less thin population
when i travel around US i honestly get shocked by what i see

i di like to stress this point hoping people will become ashamed of the way of life and attitudes they have

and i know women, i know that this is very sensitive moment for them))

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:41 pm 205. Ken:

Let me make a proposition here. I would propose that there are a whole lot of men out there who are not confident studs who are just too cool to get married. In fact, these men are painfully aware of their flaws, and would like to at least have a woman in their lives, even if they’re not so desperate as to automatically want to marry her.

I would go so far as to say that these men deep in their soul know that they are, quite honestly, not good enough.

And yet, they are overlooked precisely because they don’t fit the image of a “sad loser single man.” For starters, they don’t share their feelings. No need to dig a hole deeper. Also, they work hard for a living, and don’t take time off to deal with their emotional crises. They approach women with a confidence they do not feel, knowing full well that they can no more win the love of these women than they can get a Rolls-Royce, yet also knowing that day-to-day existence requires a certain minimum of respect.

All of which does not change that they really are insufficient. They don’t share their feelings, yet those feelings still exist, and take a toll on their life. They work, but their life tends to be chaotic and unhealthy, causing medical and legal bills to go through the roof, making them even less able to hope someday to escape from their very private hell. And of course, their confident talk only goes so far as flirting, never to trying to open a relationship–since one date would be all it would take for a woman to reject them, and tell all her friends to do likewise.

Not all “losers” are stereotypical sobbing mamma’s boys. Many of them seem normal if you don’t get past the mask.

Jul 16, 2008 - 9:11 pm 206. ddc:

kabud,

This is the internet pal. You could be Jabba The Hut for all we know.
I don’t know where you’re looking but I see gorgeous curvy women of all ages where I live.

Ken,
I would counter that there are women out there feeling equally “not good enough” and maybe both these groups strive for people who are out of their league (looks-wise), like your Rolls Royce comparison. Sadly, they set themselves up for rejection. It isn’t the fault of the ones they pursue. It’s just the way the world operates.

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:02 am 207. RAH:

The earlier comments were a diatribe against liberal ambitious women. I agree that unless she loves, but more importantly appreciate your real qualities, she is not a good wife for men. Find women who want a family and a husband and are willing to accept him with his flaws and nobilities. Try to find a woman who believes in loyalty to the family and husband, not just to herself.

If you enjoy the outdoors try to look for woman who enjoy the same things. If your wife has different hobbies, indulge those and go with her, so she will indulge yours and go with you.

Men in there 30’s are set in their ways and find it very difficult to share the lives, homes, and closets. Women like to change their environment to something they like. A man who is used to his own house does not see why he has to change, but that is just he, not accepting that role that woman do, which is to personalize their surroundings.

The woman in her 30’s has the same problem, especially if she is financially successful. She does not want to share her house, closet decorating schemes. A man should have his own area where he can indulge his hobbies.

The married couple needs to accept each other not just have great sex. Because the sex pales after a while and if you do not like your husband or wife or have similar interests the may not be much for both of you.

Men in their elder years do want a companion but often-elderly women do not unless she misses taking care of someone.

It is easier for a marriage to succeed if the couple are friends and then love each other and share same goals, values and interests. Children give a reason for couple to stay together in there 30-40’s when adults are often restless. The sexual attraction has faded and both are often too tired to try. This is the time either is tempted by the illusion of freedom and exciting sex from friends who are single. There is a good reason that married couples do not associate with singles, they are a threat to the marriage.

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:59 am 208. Chuck Pelto:

TO: RAH
RE: Appreciation

The married couple needs to accept each other not just have great sex. — RAH

A lot of truth in that. And going beyond it, each needs to think the other is more important than themselves.

RE: The Sex Thing

Because the sex pales after a while and if you do not like your husband or wife or have similar interests the may not be much for both of you. — RAH

No it doesn’t…..at least not so far.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You think intercourse is a private act; it's not, it's a social act. Men are sexually predatory in life and women are sexually manipulative. When two individuals come together and leave their gender outside the bedroom door, then they make love. - Andrea Dworkin]

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:50 am 209. Chuck Pelto:

TO: ddc
RE: Attack

Usually, people who are disgusted about something in themselves they attack others when they see it in them. — ddc

It’s called ‘projection’. And I see it quite frequently. Fortunately, I’ve learned to recognize it to.

Case in point….

I cite a passage from Proverbs 31 to men and Lynn attacks me for doing so.

On the other hand, I noticed on another thread here, you doing something very similar….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Pagans may hate you, but they'll still worship the ground you walk on.]

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:54 am 210. Mike:

American women today are taught by society to view men as an income source. The laws and socialization all point the way to the exploitation of men by predatory women. Just objectively observe network television for 6 hrs. Both entertainment and commercial programming stress the uselessness and utter stupidity of men, especially straight white men. These men appear to be fit only for being the butt of nasty jokes by women and most disturbingly, those actors portraying their children. It’s a declared war upon straight white men allright, with no holds barred.

Jul 17, 2008 - 5:46 am 211. ddc:

Mike,

Presently across the planet, in every corner of the world where women can choose to or are permitted to atend college – they do, and in numbers higher than that of men. Statistically across the nation the jr/sr high school dropout rate for men is higher than women.

The goal of these women are to graduate and become self-sufficient so as to not be dependant on a man/husband for financial support in light of the increased unreliability of that. When the next generation of 1st – to 3rd world women (whom outnumber their male counterparts in Universities) truly reach “equality” to men in income and in numbers in top level corporate positions as they will undoubtedly demand, then don’t you think your assumption “men are just an income source” will go the way of the DoDo bird? What do you suppose they will want men for then?

Jul 17, 2008 - 6:23 am 212. J:

ddc:

Women are the majority in universities, but they aren’t always taking classes to become self-sufficient. Women’s Studies, humanities, liberal arts, art and the like have huge percentages of women. I read an article several years ago from the Independent Women’s Forum called “I’m a Women’s Studies Graduate, So How Come I Can’t Pay the Rent?”.

College is fun. I stuck around and got higher degrees because (if I’m honest) it sure beat work.

Men are still the one’s out in the world DOING things. Almost all patents are awarded to men. Look out the window and you will see men building houses. Look at real engineers, doing real engineering work, and you will realize that women who majored in engineering don’t find the work “fun” – so they drift on to PR or simply marry a guy to be supported.

Yes, women look to men for money. It is a very easy way of getting money and that’s not going to change.

Jul 17, 2008 - 7:14 am 213. Lynn:

Here is what your doing Chuck. You present yourself as a happily married man with a full sexual life, but feel it is your duty to point out why other men won’t achieve the same thing because woman today are not up to snuff. You let us know that you had two relationships that failed and make sure we know it was not your fault in any way (they changed!). You quote the Bible because it makes you feel holy (holier then thou?) letting us know that you read it every day and meet for Bible study once a week. You try to give the impression that you are a warrior by quoting military truisms. You let us know that you are a father who has done his duty well by correcting his daughter’s faults. Sometimes you make the mistake of insulting a man’s comments so backtrack to your tried and true attack of women commenters and buddying up to the men (look what we’re up against men!). And finally you again repeat that it is your holiness above others that trumps their opinions. For variety you might try the word infidels rather than pagans just to shake things up.

Jul 17, 2008 - 7:32 am 214. ddc:

Engineering is not the only career choice available.

Law, medicine, entrepenuership, r&d, the whole spectrum of communications, finance,etc. What you have eluded to is that women will never attain the true equality of men in income or position. That being the case then, you’ve no legitimate grounds upon which to chastise any woman who will seek men who are good money earners.

Jul 17, 2008 - 7:55 am 215. kabud:

ddc:

americans are awfully overweight

this is number one or two cause among all preventable causes of death. the other one is smoking

arguing with this simple fact just makes everything you say look unreliable

you may come to the city and see me i am not hiding

but i suspect you will never want to show yourself for the above mentioned reason

this nation is sick

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:09 am 216. ddc:

“For variety you might try the word infidels rather than pagans just to shake things up.”

I’ve been thinking the same thing.

Also fascinating is the point made on the Brinkley Article. She, having had 4 bad marriages in total, has “a problem,” according to the divorced men who comment here and in the Brinkley article. Never based on anything other than that SHE is a woman, therefore bad/wrong/evil/changed, whathaveyou and THEY (in their own multiple failed marriages) were merely poor victims. Oh the hypocracy! Haha!

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:09 am 217. kabud:

the society will not survive in case females will become professionally involved at the same level men are:

there going to be no new generation

importing substandard substitute from outside will and actually is destroying the fundamentals of American society

Immigration is good if we can get here peole who share our values of Liberty, but from the discussion here i can tell that Americans themselves are losing it

You only care about the future if you have children whom you taught that they will also have happy families and children and so on

Here i can see some enormously egocentric arguments of a very low intellectual level based on the wrong understanding of personal freedom

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:22 am 218. transcended:

Kabud -

Your immaturity and bigotry is beyond belief. Obviously two personality deficites brought over from whatever country you immigrated from – that you can surely always go back. Don’t let the door slam…

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:30 am 219. kabud:

transcended:

see you gender difficulties are not allowing you co comprehend very simple arithmetics and resort to personal offense

this is exactly the problem with this society: IDIOCRACY and unfortunately you demonstrate it full grown

i pity you gal

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:48 am 220. transcended:

Kabud -

I resort to Personal offense? lol.

I am thoroughly amazed at your lack of self-examination. Are you even fully aware of the level of bigotry in your comments or how positively inane you’ve been? If anyone is to be pitied, it would be those who have to listen to you on a daily basis. My hope is not many.

A good suggestion for you would be to move away from the computer and purchase a good english text book. Start with the 4th grade.

Jul 17, 2008 - 9:12 am 221. kabud:

transcended:

just tell me how much you weight-
and if you can answer this simple question honestly then we will talk

bu still it will not cure the intellectual deficiency you demonstrate

any one who reads what you post here can see who you are

Jul 17, 2008 - 9:26 am 222. transcended:

Kabud -

I’d like you to post a picture of yourself so I can see if you are not old, fat, bald, toothless, diseased and ugly and please hold up a sign with Kabud written on it so I’ll be sure it is you.

Thanks

Jul 17, 2008 - 9:39 am 223. kabud:

tr:
you first

Jul 17, 2008 - 9:51 am 224. Lynn:

You must obey him transcended. He gets his name from a place in Iran. Enough said.

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:00 am 225. kabud:

Lynn:

well if you get off on obeying – you choice, but i would not like that kind of a girlfriend))

you google kabud, well, it shows at least that you learned to google

was it hard to comprehend?

What else did you find?

By the way iranian women are very attractive and not that fat))

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:14 am 226. Lynn:

You are free to move about the world kabud.

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:20 am 227. transcended:

Lynn –

He is the man after all, clearly with somekind of fat fetish, definitely unstable, and my guess has little respect for women. Yet a man full of ideas for an “ideal world” it seems, according to his latest comment on Mary Graber’s article.

Well, moving right along… Helen’s articles brings out only the best of them.

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:30 am 228. kabud:

he, dear,
there some millions of iranians living in us

but you are funny,
tell me do you practice witchcraft?

you should, we all do

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:34 am 229. Aureliano:

Engineering is not the only career choice available

Law, medicine …

I always considered medicine a natural venue for women. Doctors are basically just walking databases with eyeballs (and ears, but they never seem to use them!) Women have better memories than men, so it seems natural for ambitious women to gravitate to a field where memorization is of primary importance. And they actually seem to listen to their patients, at least occasionally! (Note, however, that medicine is not ‘biology’ — by that I mean doctors aren’t really scientists (biologists) — and MDs seldom do any real research.)

Why higher percentages of women are in law school is interesting. I always considered law as a last resort for the moderately ambitious and soulless. Very few people get into law because they love the law — if they do they tend to become law professors or judges; they get into this field because it pays well. There’s nothing wrong with that – if you have no love for anything in particular why not enter into a field that pays well and provides status? — but why would women in larger percentages settle for a job that in most cases is basically just a lot of sitting around on your ass doing research and bilking clients? It certainly isn’t because women are ’soulless’ to any greater extent, so what’s the special appeal?

… entrepenuership, r&d …

Sorry, but women have never been and will never be the primary drivers of innovation (R&D) or constitute the majority of founders of new, complex organizations (what we really mean by ‘entrepreneurship’). The latter requires a comfortableness with risk that simply doesn’t exist in sufficient numbers of women, and true innovation requires individuals to go off on their own to think through problems in new, odd, and unexpected ways (fearlessly and without angst at being alone, I might add). A gender predisposed to consensus-building, endless ‘communication’, committee creation, and other collectivist nonsense just isn’t very good at the kind of isolated independent thought required for true innovation in mathematics or the sciences, for instance, or with the kind of single-minded driving vision required to navigate through the shark-infested waters of elite entrepreneurial and financial waters. I know; I’ve seen it. These people are tough bastards, and really friggin’ smart. And they never, ever whine. About anything. They simply don’t run off looking for group-hugs or try to get somebody else to do their dirty work for them when things don’t go their way.

The truth is that joining pre-existing organizations and operating within these organizations in safe, easily identified patterns is easy as pie for anybody with just a modicum of ambition and an IQ over 100. Relative to men, women are joiners, and for many women the university has become just another risk-free group to join, a kind of social club with the classroom as a nominal glue holding the entire construct together. To women the university is a safe option, and relative to the coursework offered in decades past, it has now become ridiculously easy. After all, there is a clear correlation between the numbers of women in the university, grade inflation, and the general dumbing down of the coursework, especially in the liberal arts, which are completely overrun with women. Correlation isn’t causality, but one has to wonder ….

Perhaps it’s time to consider the fact that men opting out of the university has less to do with the coming intellectual singularity that is the female mind than the recognition by many men that they just aren’t interested in attending an organization that is disintegrating into terminal ditziness (assuming he makes it through the nonsense of high school curricula). In short, perhaps men are again establishing a new trend — maybe, for instance, illustrating the need to lay the groundwork for a resurgence of skilled vocational mentorship, or the recognition that unique scholarship in anything that is not science or math can only now happen independent of the university — and women are yet again behind the curve. It’s not like it’s never happened before …. (God knows most students really don’t belong at the university.)

… the whole spectrum of communications …

Communications is a joke. Sorority girls and football players take communications courses. Oh, and future broadcast journalists, as well. Kinda makes you wonder why broadcast journalism has disintegrated into PC incoherence in recent decades. Has anybody ever done a study of the educational background and demographics of the producers of these vacuous news broadcasts, which 80+% of the polity has come to consider unreliable and largely useless? Is there yet another correlation here worth noting …? Mmm ….

finance,etc.

Ah hell. I have something to say about this (surprise), but this post is already way too long ….

What you have eluded [sic] to is that women will never attain the true equality of men in income or position.

I didn’t read his post that way. What I think he means is simply that women are far more comfortable seeing men as an income source, as a way to attain a certain lifecycle, than the other way around. The data backs him up, since women simply shift their expectations higher as their own income increases, or alternatively ratchet up their disappointment in the man she’s supposed to love if he doesn’t meet the woman’s expectations as an income source.

Men just flat out don’t think of women as an income source. It’s nothing controversial, and it’s a dynamic as old as the hills.

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:40 am 230. kabud:

transcended:

so , no answer?

well, i would show you a picture of me and my recent romantic friend then i thought you may get very frustrated if you see such a beautiful people as we are

if you r for real- you could’ve answered my question without getting into trouble with this))

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:41 am 231. kabud:

Aureliano:

>Women have better memories than men
not in a million years

or may be they lie that they dont remember?
or may be it is because men drink more?

I have an excelent memory. I remember pages from books i read 20 years ago.

On the other hand i NEVER met a female who would remember simple things like a car make she drove 5 years ago, that kind

I think it is biological- females menstruate, so for a week each month they are out of it.

Imagine if you were sick every month for a several days: there is nothing you can think of if you feel bad.

Also females have to `look good` it takes an effort because is mostly done NOT thru exercising in the open air but thru painting your face with ink and trying to hide you fat.

And women are bad doctors.

recently i had an occasion to learn it: some one i know had shingles.
It was a result of a vacination for chickenpox badly performed in the soviet times

Well a friend did not know what the hell happened,
so i went down there, checked the way it looked, asked couple of questions, looked online and here we go i knew what it is and recommended a medicine that is $20 retail
but i am not a doctor so a prescription was needed

a friend went to see one. My diagnosis confirmed but doctor wrote prescription for 2 drugs:

one was JUST FOR THE SYMPTOMS basically suppressing immune system!!!!

and the other one was A NEW DRUG for $300!!!

the “bad woman doctor” was getting a pharmaceutical kick back!!!

A friend of mine really likes that doctor.

You ask why?

BECAUSE SHE IS A GOOD SALES PERSON.

Now she wants my friend to start blood pressure treatment!!! Man they are evil.

Blood pressure of my friend goes up because of the stress ONLY. Like it happens to everybody, when they are stressed or exercise.

And do not go up when they are resting and relaxed.

I mean, my friend is a swimmer, and swims for 1 hour daily! Has an excellent musle tone and superb health

And this crooky female doctor is just a dollar sucking leach

Women are good in decorative arts, in fashion they are superb, they are excellent with kids, but not as a colledge professors, because they can not detect a subversion imposed in our high educational system: it is too complicated for female mind and too evil so they never admit that things like that are taking place

Jul 17, 2008 - 11:12 am 232. Lynn:

Have any of you read the new book by Aureliano for girls? It’s called “I think you can’t!, I think you can’t! – The Little engine that couldn’t.”

Jul 17, 2008 - 11:48 am 233. kabud:

“I think you can’t!, I think you can’t! – The Little engine that couldn’t.”

is it in print already? i was a co-author

men shot guns

women get pregnant

the effectiveness of rest of activities are sorta based on this basic difference

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:04 pm 234. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lynn
RE: What Am I Doing Here….[Note: It’s not an interrogatory.]

Here is what your doing Chuck. You present yourself as a happily married man with a full sexual life, but feel it is your duty to point out why other men won’t achieve the same thing because woman today are not up to snuff. — Lynn

Well, Lynn….as the saying goes, “It takes two to tango.” Likewise it takes TWO to make a marriage work. And, as I mentioned earlier, I was not cautious enough in my first two. I made bad choices. And I’ve paid for it. BELIEVE ME ON THAT! It’s the LAW!

You let us know that you had two relationships that failed and make sure we know it was not your fault in any way (they changed!). — Lynn

So. Explain to me how it was my fault that X1 dropped me to marry the senior partner of a CPA firm who left his wife of 20 years to marry her? He was old enough to be her father. Then after having a child by him, she divorced him and took over total control of their CPA business.

As for X2 she was perfectly happy as long as I was a notional christian. Yes. I changed—when I began to understand what was written in that Old Book, that I’d read every night in bed beside her—for the better. I appreciated her more. Supposedly that would be for the better, wouldn’t you think? But she was a scientologist and divorced me.

You quote the Bible because it makes you feel holy (holier then thou?) letting us know that you read it every day and meet for Bible study once a week. — Lynn

I’m not ‘holier’ than you. Nor holy at all. Only God is holy. [Note: Your ignorance is showing. Maybe you should do some more reading of that reference Book in order to appear more learned in such discussions as this.]

I’m just giving you information on my background so that you can understand the audience you’re addressing. Something I was taught a LONG time ago was important in effective communication.
Much more ‘intelligence’ of your opponent in these discussion than you are give back. And I’m to be condemned for being so open and forthcoming with you? Interesting…..

You try to give the impression that you are a warrior by quoting military truisms. — Lynn

Babe….after 27 years in the infantry and being an airborne ranger….I AM a ‘warrior’. And a well ‘educated’ one at that. Or maybe you could tell us when YOU graduated the US Army Command and General Staff College.

Want my official biosumm?

Here’s a portion:

Enlisted 1970
Commissioned 1975
Retired 1997

You let us know that you are a father who has done his duty well by correcting his daughter’s faults. — Lynn

What’s wrong with that?

Sometimes you make the mistake of insulting a man’s comments so backtrack to your tried and true attack of women commenters and buddying up to the men (look what we’re up against men!) — Lynn

I didn’t ‘backtrack’. I commented that his comment reminded me of something else. A backtrack is a change in stance. And you’re either (1) falsifying information or (2) very ignorant.

Furthermore, upon re-reading that series of comments between Kevin M and myself….

….you must have no sense of humor at all.

And finally you again repeat that it is your holiness above others that trumps their opinions. — Lynn

You’re ‘repeating yourself’ and in the same post. Weren’t you the one, earlier, who was saying that was ‘bad form’? How is it it is okay for you to do such when you decry others doing it?

Something to do with hypocrisy, perhaps? Are you a registered Democrat?

For variety you might try the word infidels rather than pagans just to shake things up. — Lynn

I’ve studied both all kinds of religious beliefs. The pagan comment seemed apropos at the time.

Maybe you could offer another one to add to my collection.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Stupid, adj., Ignorant and proud of it.]

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:47 pm 235. kabud:

transcended:

a have a nice picture for you taken 1 min ago like you wanted with a sign))

no girlfriend just me))
well, have to know where to send a link?

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:51 pm 236. Chuck Pelto:

TO: ddc
RE: Here & There & Everywhere

Also fascinating is the point made on the Brinkley Article. She, having had 4 bad marriages in total, has “a problem,” according to the divorced men who comment here and in the Brinkley article. — ddc

And according to Lea and other feminists here…from the other perspective.

Lea said,

…I kindly suggest that the men who have all these problems with gold digging, bitchy women are quite possibly just making poor choices and should stop lambasting all women because they’ve met some bad ones…. — Lea [Jul 15, 2008 - 5:17 am]

RE: Yeah. It’s the ‘Hypocrisy’

Never based on anything other than that SHE is a woman, therefore bad/wrong/evil/changed, whathaveyou and THEY (in their own multiple failed marriages) were merely poor victims. Oh the hypocracy! Haha!

So. Over there—the Brinkley Divorce Thread—feminists say the guy was evil. Probably all four of them.

While over here, they say “The men made bad choices.” Which is again, it’s the mens’ fault.

TARGET!

Cease fire.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Female: One of the opposing, or unfair, sex. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary]

P.S. Hey! Lynn and ddc….

….is the Devil’s dictionary enough of a change to ‘shake’ thinks up?

I mean…it’s BEYOND paganism and infidels. Isn’t it?

Just remember THIS….YOU asked for it…..

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:09 pm 237. Chuck Pelto:

Drat it! I forgot to turn off the blockquote functionality.

I apologize…..

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:10 pm 238. kabud:

Chuck:
>Explain to me how it was my fault that X1 dropped me to marry the senior partner of a CPA firm who left his wife of 20 years to marry her?

you know, i would kill the bastard. And dump her anyway, but he would be breathing. Not that i rrecomend it, but well, there are ways. Hope u dont care anymore

>But she was a scientologist and divorced me.

WOW, a scientWHAT? Well, good lesson.

My first one was mentally instable, i did not know, her parents pushed her into marriage with me: they knew that i will go to USofA and hoped to get here eventually thru her. They did- i helped. But i was stupid, i saw signs of mental distubance but was too kind to her.

NEVER BE TOO KIND TO A FEMALE. It will get you in trouble guaranteed. They dont respect kindness EVER.

>.after 27 years in the infantry and being an airborne ranger….I AM a ‘warrior’.

respect.

>Retired 1997

it gets to the point when we will all have to go back to arms. Not sure if it should be official.

God Bless America and its soldiers

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:20 pm 239. transcended:

Aureliano -

Apparently you have all the answers with regards to the motivations and capabilities of women. Remarkable. Are they your own hypothesises or do you have legitimate proof of these opinions?

“Men just flat out don’t think of women as an income source. It’s nothing controversial, and it’s a dynamic as old as the hills.”

Well obviously. And why should they. They know that a woman will have a harder time with advancement for the same position based primarily on at least one idea. That men do not want a woman as superior. And 2. her pay will never be the same as a man’s doing the same job. While googling, look that up as well. I think the US can do with more of an equal partnership in the way Finland (i believe) has. For all of our successes the US still lags behind in equaling up the political playing field. I wouldn’t be that quick to disparage the successes of educated professional women so harshly, it makes you appear threathened, from this side of the gender fence.

What does remain a fact though is that while boys and men are dropping out of High School or foregoing college altogether girls and women are stepping up due to ambition, newly attained empowerment and most of all, neccessity.

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:44 pm 240. Brian:

Tomorrow is our 21st wedding anniversary and neither myself or my wife have any interest in starting over with someone else. Gives us the cold willies actually. We’d stay single for the rest of our lives instead.

As for the letter and the thread, enjoyed reading all the comments, but I guess the issue of marriage itself is on trial here. To say that women treat husbands poorly goes beyond the fact that for many women then and now, being the husbands ‘property’ had a lot to do with women’s rights in the first place. Marriage has always been about the head of the household versus the heart and that hasn’t been resolved.

My wife is my equal but she’s not the same. I think we’ve lost sight of the fact that a man and a woman bring very different strengths and weaknesses to a marriage. What makes a great marriage is acknowledging that we are different and those differences are the key to building a marriage together.

Jul 17, 2008 - 2:06 pm 241. Kevin M:

transcended:

“her pay will never be the same as a man’s doing the same job.”

I don’t know if I am taking your statement correctly, but in Manhattan, women between 20-30 years of age, white collar, make about 112% what their male counterparts make. In Houston, 120%.

The BS about women not paid as well as the man is crap from 70s sociology courses. Welcome to the real world. And don’t forget to pay the restaurant check when you date her. It’s expected.

Jul 17, 2008 - 2:09 pm 242. transcended:

Interesting. Both my neices. One 22, having finished her undergrad nursing degree a year ago was making 67k working at Columbia in NYC, decided she wanted something better. Broke up with her construction-worker boyfriend of 3 years – who was and remains a very nice boy – because he wanted her to not work so much so she could be home in time to make dinner. Imagine a woman telling her professional husband the same?
She is now enrolled at Stony Brook U for grad work in management. Her goal is not simply to be a nurse, which is in itself a noble profession, she wants to manage the entire department. We are all proud of her and help in any way we can.

Another neice, graduated high school early, took all advanced placement courses received enough scholarship money to attend Jr College to satisfy her liberal arts requirements finsihing this past spring. Her grades not only put her on the Dean list but she also received the Presidents Award with scholarship money to enter Gainsville University’s biology center. Her ultimate goal is Neuro-biology.

All toll, we have 7 newphews and 3 neices. the youngest girl 12 has know from early on that she wants also to go into medicine. Sadly, my nephews all teens have either dropped out of community colleges, one dropping out after receiving a hockey scholarship, or not attending at all despite family encouragement. Just a local view of a larger global issue of today’s disparity.

Jul 17, 2008 - 2:10 pm 243. kabud:

>woman will have a harder time with advancement for the same position based primarily on at least one idea

this is just a lie.

As a headhunter in the past i KNOW that women can be placed much easier in IT, finance and engineering then any man. It meant BIG MONEY for me, so i learned.

Once i placed a moldovian girl – short and stocky, but with big breast for that matter and advanced degree in phisics plus another degree from one of the Harvard programs -
into the position that was paying 4-5 times more then she was hoping for.

Well I PLACED HER. She herself had no idea, even though could do a good job. But not on a genius level. My job to sell her was exactly on the level of genius)))))) or may be i am just gender smarter??

You are something trancendent. And it is not good what u are.

A smart good looking person of any gender is a catch but since on average females can not grasp complicated matters – there are very few of them in the really intellectually challenging fields

You are so full of it

The rest of you profound bull is not even worth commenting

Just go, trancende something different))))

Jul 17, 2008 - 2:14 pm 244. transcended:

Good quality intelligent men on these boards today is severely lacking. Instead what they’d like to believe is logic comes off as hostility, arrogance, and quite frankly, misogony. None of you can stand women. That is obvious. So you must do better to be thought of as credible in any discussion.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Careers/10/22/equal.pay/

Did you know that, according to the AFL-CIO, the average 25-year-old woman who works full-time, year-round until she retires at age 65 (if that’s when she’s able to retire) will earn $523,000 less than the average working man?

At the current rate of change, working women will not achieve equal pay until after the year 2050. That’s almost 100 years after President Kennedy signed the Equal Pay Act into law, prohibiting discrimination based on sex resulting in unequal pay for equal work.

On average, women make 78 percent of men’s wages, according to a 2003 study by the U.S. Department of Labor. This is, however, a marked improvement over 25 years ago — in 1979, women made 62 percent of what men earned.

_________________

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=306151

November 12, 2007 (Computerworld) — According to Computerworld’s annual Salary Survey, male IT professionals continue to outearn their female counterparts.

At the highest level of IT, male CIOs and vice presidents made on average $179,026 in total compensation this year, while women in the same jobs took in nearly $6,000 less, at $173,052. The pay differences between middle managers and technical workers are similarly unequal.

This salary inequity between men and women in IT is a longstanding issue, but it could have short-term consequences for companies that pay female IT workers less, according to Umesh Ramakrishnan, vice chairman of CTPartners, an executive recruiter in New York.
_____________________________
* Women securities, commodities and financial services sales agents earned $33,852 compared to $60,736 for men
* Women marketing and sales managers earned $46,696 compared with $74,932 for men
* Women physicians and surgeons earned $50,856 compared with $97,448 for men
* Women government lobbyists employed by nonprofits earned $73,907 compared with $96,655 for men
* Women editors-in-chief of magazines made about $79,000 compared with $104,000 for men

Women and work

* * Women accounted for 51% of all workers in the high-paying management, professional and related occupations in 2007
* In 2007, the median weekly earnings of women working full-time were $614 – 80 percent of men’s $766 weekly earnings
* In 1979, women earned about 63 percent as much as men
* One year out of college, women working full time earn 80 percent as much as their male colleagues earn.
* Ten years after graduation, women earn 69 percent as much as men earn
* Sources: U.S. Department of Labor Women’s Bureau, American Association of University Women

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:04 pm 245. Aureliano:

Apparently you have all the answers with regards to the motivations and capabilities of women. Remarkable.

Isn’t it? I suppose a lifetime of interactions with women of all kinds, from many different cultures, in many different roles, and a decided disinclination to watch TV or believe everything I see in Hollywood movies lays an excellent foundation for having a clue. You should try it.

Are they your own hypothesises or do you have legitimate proof of these opinions?

Do I really need to dig up studies that demonstrate that women have better memories than men? You should already know that such studies exist. Perhaps you need a study to prove that most lawyers have no real love of the law. Anybody over the age of 30 knows this without a study. Look up every discovery humankind has ever made and it will be populated with men, so my statement that women have never been the drivers of innovation is demonstrably true, and if you read up on technology, mathematics, the sciences, or heck, even new fields of study, how often is it a woman doing the inventing and the innovating? Any statement I make about the future is by definition speculative, so sweetie, in case this is over your head, it means there can be no ‘proof’ of that which hasn’t yet happened.

The pattern holds for elite entrepreneurial activities. Men begin these companies, not women. If you care to argue that men aren’t more inclined to engage in risk-taking activities, or on average aren’t more comfortable in competitive environments, then go ahead. You go right ahead and try to convince people that women are entrepreneurial juggernauts in few-rules, high-risk, hyper-competitive environments like high-tech startups. You go right ahead and engage in that bizarre bit of fantasization.

Do I really need to dig up studies of which you should already be aware that illustrate female predilection towards verbal communication, consensus building, social interaction, and various and sundry other group-focused problem-solving techniques? Do I need to point out that more women gravitate to the Democratic Party, the collectivist party, than to the Libertarian or Republican parties? Do I really have to dig up studies demonstrating higher physiological stress levels in females versus males when they are alone and encounter problems of different sorts? Are you so inexperienced that you don’t understand that committees never innovate, that only individuals can come up with something new, and so therefore those who make decisions by committee can never be brilliant? Do you not know the meaning of ‘groupthink’, and why people whose primary motivation is group validation or validation through personal relationships are thus completely incapable of innovative thinking?

Are you really not aware of the phenomenon of grade inflation? Are you really not aware of the studies showing that college graduates know less than they did 40 years ago over a broad range of subjects ranging from history to basic mathematics to English grammar to … well, you get the idea. Do you not understand why boys, who are more kinetic than girls, might not be all that jazzed with sitting around a classroom learning nonsense while having empowerment sunshine blown up their asses because their female teacher thinks all they need is a little more support and they’d become the next Isaac Newton?

Do you not know that communications courses are a running joke at the university, that sorority girls and football players gravitate towards this subject? Have you not seen the polls showing that people hold complete disdain for broadcast journalism? I asked for a demographic study on the producers of these shows. Perhaps you could find one and pass it along (although I don’t think you’ll be happy with the results).

And for God’s sake, do I really need to dig up yet another study which shows that women do prefer older mates who make more money than they do?

In other words, you’re not asking for proof, you’re asking me to educate you about things you should have known for decades. And please do us all the favor of not confusing yourself or your nieces with actual data and a viable argument, such as it is.

P.S. (Finland? What the …?)

P.P.S. Please stop using terms like empowerment.
Only insecure weaklings feel the need to talk about how empowered they are. If you were truly empowered you’d just do what you want to do, even when people like me are being mean and icky. Just some free advice, in case you find yourself amongst accomplished people.

P.P.P.S. “She is now enrolled at Stony Brook U for grad work in management.” What did I say about joining pre-existing organizations and operating in safe, easily identified patterns? Your niece deserves respect, but she is neither an innovator nor an entrepreneur. I’m sorry, she’s a bureaucrat. (Not that the world doesn’t need administrators.) And by the way, shouldn’t it be your nephews who need support?

P.P.P.P.S. I call BS on the ’scholarship money’ for Jr. College. JC is too inexpensive to require scholarship money. A credit card with a $2000 limit will cover JC costs — you receive scholarship money only for expensive four-year universities.

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:30 pm 246. Aureliano:

I wouldn’t be that quick to disparage the successes of educated professional women so harshly, it makes you appear threathened, from this side of the gender fence.

Perhaps you should disengage the emotional part of your brain from its analytical counterpart.

Reread my post: I did not disparage professional women, I said that they will never be the PRIMARY drivers of innovation or constitute the MAJORITY of founders of new, complex organizations. There have always been and will continue to be professional women of note. My main point is that a university overflowing with women probably isn’t the intellectual juggernaut the ditzy feminists like to think it is –- in fact it may demonstrate the opposite — and that there are some fields in which men really do excel. DNA is as DNA does.

What does remain a fact though is that while boys and men are dropping out of High School or foregoing college altogether girls and women are stepping up due to ambition, newly attained empowerment and most of all, neccessity.

You’ve never been to college, have you? Most people in college these days aren’t particularly ambitious, and when did this empowerment become ‘new’? It’s been around for a long, long time. You sound like you’re on autopilot … like a lot of university professors, in fact.

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:38 pm 247. kabud:

Aureliano:

very good summarizing!

I am not sure about the memory though: females i meet never have it as good

On the nurse-bureaucrat: EXACTLY.

Once i dated a nurse who looked exactly like brook shields. Another girl friend asked me: why? Nurse is so low class. That other girl was selfemployed.
Thats as much for nurse respect. well i am not sure, that Tara girl was not very bright but good looking.

And remember nurse-bureaucrat – she CANCELED her could be family : so if she will ever have children they will come much later and hence will be much weaker in health but nurse-niece will be sucking more dollars in medical bureaucracy from your pockets.

A NICE EXCHANGE, HA!

I don’t know if this whole nurse today is really worth it, – medical establishment is a system of leaching the money from society. Something is very fishy in this:

So the nurse-niece figured and is trying to move upwards in the hierarchy of leaches

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:58 pm 248. kabud:

trangendered:

i love women and the adore me))

your links to labour statistics and cnn may be taken with suspicion

but lets asume they are true:

the pay difference is the exact prove that

FEMALES PERFORM CONSIDERABLY WORSE

may be because they menstruate for 5-7 days a month

may be because in the fields you link to they can not do better naturally

so where is your nice picture and weight figure?

Jul 17, 2008 - 4:50 pm 249. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Transcended(?)

“Good quality intelligent men on these boards today is severely lacking. Instead what they’d like to believe is logic comes off as hostility, arrogance, and quite frankly, misogony.” — Transcended

Yeah….Right….

Can you say, ‘projection’? I knew you could.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.]

Jul 17, 2008 - 4:51 pm 250. Lynn:

Are you a Ranger Chuck? What Battalion did you serve with?

Jul 17, 2008 - 5:08 pm 251. kabud:

Aureliano:

reread you posts again. Thank you. I never actually realized the devastating impact of subversion in the educational system

I heard long time ago from professional strategists of high level of subversion about this feature of American educational system but never realised its impact

I had a friend he is decesead now-

he was a famous, world renown mathematician, well, my father is also of the same kind(telling this just to explain where i am coming from)

so that guy came here in his late 60s after commies 10 years did not let him work his trade in moscow-
and became a professor here, in some texan university

so that guy explained to me the way education works here:

they teach you problem solving and never give you a full picture of the structure of science you learn

and then i remembered what strategist told me:
soviets knew this aspect of educational system, they aimed exactly on this: americans do not have a full picture, so they never understand how they are fooled

Jul 17, 2008 - 5:08 pm 252. J:

Transcended:

1. Your intro is called “shaming tactics”. I think that men are slowly becoming immune to it (I know I am), because the feminist has cried “Wolf” too often. It used to shut men up, because men operate with chivalry towards women; now it just makes the woman look bad.

2. Women earn less than men due in large part to choices. You can argue about the impact of discrimination, but the fact that women make different choices than men is absolutely certain.

If you want to have good money, you can take on a lot of stress and work horrible hours at a job you don’t really like until you make partner in the law firm (for instance) … or … you can marry a man doing that and have the exact same lifestyle.

Women still “marry up” or try to marry up today. That may put a crimp on their work motivation in part.

Another view: Let’s say that Mary makes less than Jim (they’re married) because Mary had a triple major in liberal arts, women’s studies and 14th century French literature (in English translation, she never really learned a whole lot of French). Mary is a part-time secretary at the elementary school.

Jim got a degree in engineering and then law and works as a patent attorney. He is busting his butt. Sometimes he thinks he hates his boring job, but there is no other way to make good money. Jim knows that he was attractive to Mary in part because of his earning potential.

They have the exact same lifestyle. Exactly the same. If they split, she has access to his pension, she may get alimony, and she gets half the money he accumulated with his work. She may get the house, while he gets the mortgage payments.

She spends her pin money from her part-time job on herself. All of it. The mortgage, car payments, everything are Jim’s responsibility.

Now Mary shows up in the statistics as earning less. But what’s reality? Who’s got a nicer, less stressful life with the same standard of living?

Jul 18, 2008 - 4:31 am 253. J:

I just recently saw a case in my personal life of two doctors (male and female) who got married.

The man is still cranking it out in a practice, 10-12 hours a day. The woman sometimes works part-time, but mostly says she has been “writing a book” for the last several years (no end in sight). I wonder if there even is a book. She tells people she’s a “physician”; no one asks her, of course, if she works very much. No kids.

She’s got a great lifestyle, stress-free. And she would show up in the statistics as doing the SAME JOB as her husband, but earning far less.

Jul 18, 2008 - 4:36 am 254. J:

Feminist: The Department of Labor says that women only earn 76 cents for every dollar that a man earns for exactly the same work.

Man: No, what the Department of Labor did was to compare everyone working more than 35 hours per week. There was no comparison with regard to the number of hours worked, type of job worked, number of years of experience, hazardous nature of the job etc. The Department of Labor definitely did NOT compare figures for the exact same work.

Feminist: You probably have a small penis and have a lousy job. That’s why women hate you and you are probably bitter about that. That’s why all you can do is cut down women, just to make yourself feel better. Loser.

Jul 18, 2008 - 5:25 am 255. ddc:

This thread is hijacked.

Getting back to the origins of the article…

Why on earth is this such an issue to begin with? If men or women want to remain single into their forties, who cares?

Both married men and married women do see these people and do relate to them in different ways as i’ve seen though. Now this isonly by MY experience:

The married women try to set the nice-looking single guy up because a single man-friend of their husbands could be dangerous. He’s “free,” to go to strip clubs, free to fly off for the weekend and do other things any single man would do…which in their minds is – primarily looking for sex. And they do not want their husbands tempted into rekindling this kind of activity.

The married men, now I came to this by working at my father’s firm while a college student for 3 years and witnessing, when socializing with the nice-looking single woman see her as possible prey. In their minds she’s unattached, therefore lonely and in need of love and possibly sex. They never try to set the single woman up with any guy but themselves whether they were married or not. At one point there was an all out competition.

Thus is my experience. Does every married man and married woman behave similarly towards unattached opposites? Not necessarily, but it is not out of the realm of possiblity that they behave this way more often than not.

Jul 18, 2008 - 11:20 am 256. Randy:

As a 46 year old single hetro never married male, my situation is similar to the original poster. I’ve also reached the same conclusion that modern marriage has become a no-go zone for “nice guy” types such as myself. With marriage removed from the plans, and a sex drive that becomes ever easier to ignore as I age, the minefield of modern dating and relating only encourages the celibate batchelor lifestyle. Most of the single male friends I know have quietly reached similar conclusions.

Ladies, don’t let the nasty nature of the blog-o-sphere obscure what is really happening here. While there may be a vocal minority of angry men spewing venom on blogs and forums, it’s the somewhat more hidden demographic of nice guys and honourable men you should be concerned about. For those women actively looking for a husband, you’ve likely already noticed our absense from the dating pool. There is no shortage of players, stringers and alpha bad-boys out there willing to whisper sweet-nothings into women’s ears in a quest for short-term pleasure. As for the men that would actually make good husbands and fathers, we’re quietly withdrawing from the game in ever increaing numbers. Why are we doing this? It mostly boils down to legal issues. Men have become increasingly aware that an honest man has simply no defense against the legal onslaught that can be brought against him by a vindictive woman. It can even be argued that the current legal climate encourages and supports the vindictive woman. We know that honesty and integrity are trumped by crocodile tears in the family courts. We know being a good father means nothing to child protective services or the courts. We know that a false claim of sexual harrassment in the office can derail a marriage or career. Compare that to all of the legal and social incentives for the longevity of marriage (if you can even find any). On the flip side, batchlorhood comes with plenty of free time to pursue hobbies & interests, and I seem to experience far less financial stress than my married friends do (subject to change without notice, of course). The bottom line is that men fear a bad marriage and the potential fallout of divorce far more than never being married at all.

Do any of my married female friends consider me a threat or a problem in any way? In my case, not at all. That may come from the fact that we’ve all known each other from our university days 20+ years ago, with plenty of opportunity to see the best and worst in each other. Do they try to set me up with single friends? No set-ups, but they are generally on the look-out for possible mates, and they will always ask me first rather than trying to simply throw me into an awkward social moment. Are they just trying to sabotage my batchelorhood? No. In all cases, they think I’m a swell guy and would be a wonderful husband if paired up with the right mate. I’m even on one or two women’s “Plan B” lists in case of a husband’s unexpected demise. Those things tend to come up jokingly for obvious reasons, but it still reveals the general perception that I’m considered a good catch by those who know me. These women also (wisely) know that their husbands need to do the “weekend warrior” thing every once in a while, and I provide their husbands the chance to do just that, along with a moderating voice of reason that keeps them safe and alive to return home to their families at the end of the day.

Guys, for you decent men out there that are still considering marriage but are wondering how to navigate the relationship minefield in your quest for a good wife, you should NOT rule out the efforts of the married women in your life that are looking to set you up, especially if she’s someone you have been aquainted with for many years. Why? Here are a couple good reasons:

Birds of a feather — Married women of integrity tend to surround themselves with women that share similar mindsets. That generally applies to the single women they happen to know or meet.

Feminine insights — If the person trying to set you up has known you for a long time, she’s not likely to be trying to destroy your life for the benefit of some potentially nasty female friend of hers. She’s actually evaluating the prospects and helping sort the wheat from the chaff in ways that are difficult for guys to do. That includes things like how a potential mate talks about men when there are no other men around, how she treats other women or people subordinate to her, etc. Things like that can be very difficult for a guy to perceive in a potential mate when dating, as everyone is putting on their best behaviour to impress.

Myself, I’m still firmly rooted in the batchelorhood camp, but I’m well aware this still comes at a cost. Yes, marriage can benefit men in spite of the rhetoric claiming otherwise. As a generally shy quiet guy, I know that in a good marriage, I would likely feel more confident, happier, and have a larger circle of friends than I have now. Batchlorhood makes it a little too easy to become withdrawn and isolated. If I ever change my mind and open up to the possibility of a relationship again, I would very likely turn to my long-standing female friends to assist me in the search. They are much more skilled at identifying the virtuous vs. the potentially vindictive woman than I will ever be.

Jul 18, 2008 - 11:31 am 257. ddc:

“Feminist: You probably have a small penis and have a lousy job. That’s why women hate you and you are probably bitter about that. That’s why all you can do is cut down women, just to make yourself feel better. Loser.”
_____________________

Two can play at that can’t they?
Misogonist: You’re probably fat and that why men hate you and you’re bitter about that so all you can do is cut-down men just to make yourself feel better.

Honestly, there remains some very severe problems between the sexes. Men blame women – women blame men. Neither is right, neither is wrong. Each gender has their own ideas of what can make it work but neither wants to hear it since each has deep-seated suspicions about the other’s motives i.e., men do not want to be used as a meal ticket and women do not want to be used for their body parts.

That’s pretty much the size of it.

Jul 18, 2008 - 11:34 am 258. Me:

Sheila, if you couldn’t be bothered to read, don’t bother us by posting.

Jul 18, 2008 - 1:47 pm 259. kabud:

Randy:(not sure if you are a man but not a deceptive woman:):)

i would advice differently AND PRACTICALLY-
if you find a candidate for marriage: don’t trust yourself and yopur feelings. If it proves wrong- then consider it a blessing, but

-hide your assets off shore, in numbered accounts,
-hire safe deposit boxes,
-think what you will do when SHE will show her real face in terms of emotional stress and where you will turn then
- go to a good counselor, find out about prinap and how they work on federal and different states level- the may be so devious that will use the gray area in law against you later
-very important:

find her real weak spot, think how you will exploit it if it gets to war. The best would be if you can find something on her that will be a leverage : like evidence of real criminal wrong doing

you may also CREATE something to the effect

Well, if AND GOD FORBID IT DOES, but IF it will ever get to WAR with her:

MIND THIS: it is going to be the worst time in your life, worth then if you go to VIETNAM in the 60s.

So get ready. Dont trust her.

Keep all this advice to yourself, never reveal to her any of this.

Jul 18, 2008 - 3:38 pm 260. kabud:

ddc:

just tell us your weight and age and direct to your picture, facial features not important if you are in hiding

then we will see how similar to dead dog dworking you look

do us all a favour

Jul 18, 2008 - 3:39 pm 261. kabud:

>women do not want to be used for their body parts.

only frigid woman could have write a stupid thing like that

so truth is revealing in portions

Jul 18, 2008 - 3:41 pm 262. J:

Kabud,

Look at all that stuff you listed for Randy to do to get into a relationship with a woman.

Here’s my point: If you have to do all of that, maybe it’s just not worth it.

And the sad fact is, you pretty much DO have to do all of that stuff if you want to get married.

I haven’t ever married, and I’m starting to think it’s just not all that bad.

What exactly are women WORTH? What exactly is a marriage worth? I have come to my own conclusions with time.

Sometimes men don’t quite get it – I have seen the good-natured guy who explains to me how his wife is not only his partner in life but his best friend. He gives me advice on how to stay married – you have to work on it.

And then his wife files for divorce (after 22 years of marriage).

Sorry, I think all of this “soul mate” stuff is so much crap. It’s “soul mates, but on the off chance it doesn’t work, the man is fully responsible, and will pay and pay, and the woman has no responsibility”. Sounds great for the men who will never get divorced, not ever.

Jul 18, 2008 - 4:03 pm 263. ddc:

Kabud you are truly one lost and hatefull human being. From what you’ve posted above, I would add a dangerous one at that. Astounding.

I really doubt any intelligent reader here (man or woman) will bother to reply to you unless it’s to ask you to get help for your disorder. And that is said with as much kindness as I can muster.

Jul 18, 2008 - 4:09 pm 264. kabud:

J:

you know women are not actually bad at all.

It happened because they dont have an ability to understand complex schemes played at them by the years of subversion of American society

Not many men do as well, but the IDEA was to USE female weak points to destroy FAMILIES

It is very sad, because when enemy will spread bubonic plaque or anthrax of the 3rd generation and we will face 100 millions of death -

women like the ugly-dead-dog-dworkin type will start screaming:

WE WERE NOT WARNED in their high pitched distorted by Prozac voices

but there gonna be nobody to come to the rescue(((

Jul 18, 2008 - 4:45 pm 265. kabud:

ddc:

yeah right, you are a lier

Jul 18, 2008 - 5:08 pm 266. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Lynn
RE: Ranger?

“Are you a Ranger Chuck? What Battalion did you serve with?” — Lynn

Wrong, babe. I’m an Airborne-Ranger. Something of a difference.

I served two tours in 1st Battalion (Airborne) 508th Infantry, 82d Airborne Division; one enlisted, one commissioned. I’m a graduate of the Jumpmaster and Ranger courses.

Catching on?

What’s your point? Trying to figure out if I’m as much a liar as Lea? Or even ddc, if kabud is correct in his understanding?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[God is alive....and airborne-ranger qualified. -- chaplain at the US Army Airborne School Chapel]

Jul 18, 2008 - 5:27 pm 267. NB:

One of two things are going on here that many people have already stated. I’ll restate just to agree…Either married women are sizing the guy up to see if he’s a match for their single friends, or the married women actually believe that single guy=guy having one nighters and using women (hence the “settle down” idea). The former is fine, if not a bit presumptuous. There are guys who like being single. The latter is just silly. Not every single guy is out picking up women every night.

I agree with one of the more simple posts. Sack Up! Not everyone was made to be “with someone”. If that’s the case get a hobby or do whatever to make you happy with you. If people think there’s something wrong with you because your 47 and single that’s their problem not yours (unless there is something wrong with you, you know it, and refuse to address it).

I’m single, in part, because I’m hetero, white, christian, conservative and male. That’s pretty much every unpopular hated group in the country. Add to that what I’m looking for; a good conservative, family centered, Christian woman (which does not tanslate into submissive little wallflower that’ll stay home and pop out kids so any feminists out there just calm your bad selves down). Not a lot of those left in the world. I’m happy with who I am though, have a lot of female friends with whom I share a mutual respect, and if I eventually get married great. Until then I have some good times and let the chips fall where they may. I suspect that the guy that wrote this letter is far more unhappy with himself then he is threatened by married women. Maybe deep down he thinks being single makes him less then his married peers or he thinks because he’s single there must be something wrong with him and only feels threatened because women who bring it up force his own insecurities into the light.

Being single gets lonely sometimes, I’m not gonna lie. Occasionally it’s hard to watch all your shiny happy friends in relationships but at the end of the day, you gotta be good with you. I know I’m a good person and I love the things I could bring to a relationship. I’d rather not be in one then be in the wrong one though and in the mean time I enjoy the freedom of doing what I want, when I want, how I want. Bottom line is, if you wanna be in a relationship, women don’t want men with a “poor me” attitude so step one is knock that sh*t off.

Jul 18, 2008 - 7:45 pm 268. kn:

“Bottom line is, if you wanna be in a relationship, women don’t want men with a “poor me” attitude so step one is knock that sh*t off.”

TRUE.

Jul 19, 2008 - 10:35 am 269. Chuck Pelto:

TO: ddc
RE: FINALLY…Back On-Topic

Why on earth is this such an issue to begin with? If men or women want to remain single into their forties, who cares?– ddc

Good point. But evidently SOMEONE cares. I think that’s what this thread is all about.

RE: Different Strokings for Different Folks

Both married men and married women do see these people and do relate to them in different ways as i’ve seen though. Now this is only by MY experience:– ddc

That’s what we’re trying to grapple with here. That various people treat these people in different ways. Could it be because of their marital basis? Is there prejudice involved?

RE: The Dangers of Single ‘Friends’

The married women try to set the nice-looking single guy up because a single man-friend of their husbands could be dangerous. He’s “free,” to go to strip clubs, free to fly off for the weekend and do other things any single man would do…which in their minds is – primarily looking for sex. And they do not want their husbands tempted into rekindling this kind of activity.– ddc

That, I think was the initial analysis here, before you jumped in with the OT activities.

RE: Predators, Prey, Manipulators and Men

The married men, now I came to this by working at my father’s firm while a college student for 3 years and witnessing, when socializing with the nice-looking single woman see her as possible prey. In their minds she’s unattached, therefore lonely and in need of love and possibly sex. They never try to set the single woman up with any guy but themselves whether they were married or not. At one point there was an all out competition.– ddc

I won’t argue that observation. I’ve seen it often enough in corporate life.

On the other hand, I’ve seen the women-folk doing similar things….first hand.

RE: Viva la ‘Difference’!

Thus is my experience. Does every married man and married woman behave similarly towards unattached opposites? Not necessarily, but it is not out of the realm of possiblity that they behave this way more often than not.– ddc

I agree. It depends on more than just gender, marital status and the ‘object’, there are other issues such as basis of morality/ethics and moral courage/fortitude. It’s much more complicated than most would like to think. But, there are certain behaviors that, without the benefit of a ‘moral compass’, can be predicted.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Jul 19, 2008 - 11:56 am 270. fdas:

“Bottom line is, if you wanna be in a relationship, women don’t want men with a “poor me” attitude so step one is knock that sh*t off.”

TRUE.

———————————-

And everything revolves around what women want. Structure your whole life around what a woman *could* want, and I doubt you even have *that* right.

Man, you guys are pathetic.

Jul 19, 2008 - 4:09 pm 271. Chuck Pelto:

TO: fdas
RE: Structural Control

“Structure your whole life around what a woman *could* want, and I doubt you even have *that* right.” — fdas

I doubt ANY man could have THAT ‘right’. We’ve been TRYING since the ancient Greeks and even the Greeks, whom I don’t get—as in ‘It’s all Greek to me’—didn’t get it.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Few women are dumb enough to listen to reason. -- Sophicles]

Jul 19, 2008 - 5:58 pm 272. irlandes:

>>Twok:

>>This is not a blog for legal advice, but many people here seem to believe that a pre-nup will always be tossed out by a judge.

>>Does anyone have DIRECT experience? Not just heresay?

>>My understanding is that it is tossed out IF it is grossly unfair, or prepared without attorneys present on both sides.

>>But if done properly with attorneys on both sides, it should hold, no?
Jul 15, 2008 – 10:52 am

No. Your comment does not seem to understand the legal system at all. Asking about DIRECT experience shows, in fact, total ignorance of how the system works, as does the rest of your comment.

I have never had a pre-nup which in your opinion means I know nothing about it, right?

Wrong. Our legal system operates on previous court rulings called “precedents”. Appellate court rulings often can be used as support for a court case.

I did considerable legal research in the 80’s and early 90’s. That means studying those precedential rulings to find out what the actual applied law is. In fact, most states have specific laws which tell judges they may rip up a pre-nup, no matter how carefully crafted or how much legal representation both parties had, IF the judge feels somehow the result is injust.

The result is any man (usually the case, though Christie Brinkley got scrod on this recently) who has considerable assets can be sure no pre-nup will let him keep those assets if the woman divorcing him has few assets. Period.

Let me repeat what has been said before. Pre-nups are not worth the paper they are written on. Lawyers try to convince you they do, if you have considerable assets, because they get to charge you big bux to make them, then big bux to make a futile attempt to defend them when the judge feels sorry for the gold-digger who married you.

Please do not discuss legal issues when you clearly know nothing about them. You have no idea how pathetic that posting looks to anyone who knows the court rulings and state laws on this topic.

This sort of mis-information can lead other people to grief.

Jul 19, 2008 - 8:45 pm 273. irlandes:

>>I wasn’t speaking of this thread only, but it just seems like Dr. Helen’s comments have attracted a lot of angry men in general. Which is why I said I’m not surprised.

If you and other women would start LISTENING to men, instead of insulting them the minute you hear something you don’t like, you would quickly learn there are millions of angry men out there. OF course you are convinced if men are angry at women, it is the men who are at fault because women are perfect in every way. Hee, hee, hee. (To spare you the time it takes to type in the usual insults from the feminist catechism, married 33 years and currently in Mexico to get as far from most American women as I can get.)

Jul 19, 2008 - 8:49 pm 274. NB:

To FDAS
“And everything revolves around what women want. Structure your whole life around what a woman *could* want, and I doubt you even have *that* right.”

Did you read the rest of my post? All if it was basically about be you and be happy with you and let everyone else think what they want to think. That said, it’s a fact that hetero women are looking for men. Man and whiny b*tch are diametrically opposed ideas.

Jul 20, 2008 - 4:32 am 275. Lea:

Trying to figure out if I’m as much a liar as Lea?

Oh dear lord. It’s been like a week since I posted on this board!

To use a favorite phrase of yours, must have hit a nerve.

i.e., men do not want to be used as a meal ticket and women do not want to be used for their body parts.

Excellent Summation. It all comes down to what is the best way (for those who want to get married) to chose a mate who is going to be interested in more than that. I have a cousin who married this guy (totally sweet guy) who had been engaged (or seriously dating) some girl before that and his parents were worried because her parents were divorced. So, when he ended up with my cousin (parents married 40ish years, and most of our family in long marriages with very little divorce as well) they were really happy, because they believed that was a good predictor of my cousin’s likelihood of staying married to him. I always thought that was kind of interesting.

Jul 20, 2008 - 6:53 pm 276. Lea:

If you and other women would start LISTENING to men, instead of insulting them the minute you hear something you don’t like, you would quickly learn there are millions of angry men out there.

Well I’m here aren’t I? Doesn’t that show that I was trying to listen? But what I’m hearing is a lot of stories about bitchy women. Which is all very interesting and I have lots of stories about bitchy men and women. Nobody is saying women are perfect, just that they aren’t ALL evil. It’s hard to have a discussion about the the other stuff when you get shouted down as a liar who is projecting and probably fat every time you make a comment.

Jul 20, 2008 - 7:04 pm 277. kabud:

Chuck:

>I won’t argue that observation. I’ve seen it often enough in corporate life.

agree. opponent just has insecurities and refuses to understand differences in sexuality btw men and women

she thinks wrongly that if there is a `competeeng` female that men notice and if that femal signals to men- they will AUTOMATICALLY submit

it is absolutely not true.

in real life any `new` intimacy is very hardly reached and i may also say: some metaphysics is always involved, like they say that marriages are made in heaven

And of course, men are trying to make women happy. It is nature. Women are reacting to this usually in the opposite way, which is genetic intuition directed towards selecting the best.

Somehow `the best` are perceived as `the hardest to get` hence all the sex wars:)

to Lea:

> I’m hearing is a lot of stories about bitchy women.

because good women are still considered NORMAL by men and there is nothing to discuss

Jul 20, 2008 - 7:46 pm 278. Chuck Pelto:

TO: kabud
RE: Except….

because good women are still considered NORMAL by men and there is nothing to discuss” — kabud

…in their worthy praise; considering the ilk we come across here.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Who can find a virtuous woman. -- Proverbs]

Ooo! OOOO! — CBPelto

Jul 21, 2008 - 1:48 pm 279. kabud:

Well, Chuck,

if `she` would have a real lover or any attention from men, don’t you think she would be THERE ?
and not here propagating illogical irrational and untruth worthy bull?

I suspect there are just 1-2 of `she` here and she uses different nicknames because she is so lonely and may be even has cancer?

would be interesting to find out.

Hey, ddc, or what is you current name:

do yo have cancer?

if not sure: go, check it

Jul 21, 2008 - 2:23 pm 280. David:

As 40 year old never married man, I have had similar experiences.
A happy single man with no interest in marriage is viewed as a threat to married women, and all women. I have had the conversation, “don’t you want to get married?” and I respond “No way, will never happen, ever”. Then I get the look of “he must be insane”. Women have been taught that all men want them and want to marry them. To not want them does not make sense to a woman, it goes against everything they have been taught.
The questions keep coming, I respond “why would I get married, there is nothing in for me, I don’t want children. Then I get the look of “he must be insane”. Women have been taught that all men want children and will marry them in order to have children. To not want children does not make sense to a woman, it goes against everything they have been taught.
Then I get comments like “aren’t you afraid of being alone”, or “I think you have not met the right women”, etc. Again, they don’t get it, and are unwilling to accept that a man can be happy without a woman. Again, because it is contrary to everything they believe to be true about men.
From my experience, men that shun marriage befuddle women because they have trouble comprehending “A man needs marriage like fish needs a bicycle”. And get very threatened by this fact.

Aug 6, 2008 - 7:46 am 281. Ecas:

As a single male I can see where the original author is coming from. I do not feel that my friends wives are sizing me up for their single friends, instead they speak down to me and even speak slowly like I have a mental disability. Mind you I have my PhD and an accomplished author to boot and was married, toured the world, and divorced before most of these women even completed high school (that is if they even made it that far). Now I know you married women out there would love to believe I am some sort of middle aged “player” out at the bar every weekend picking up “chicks”. Well I hate to break it to you, being single does not mean all men behave like that. In fact I have been sexually inactive for nearly a decade.

I truly believe that many of these women are threatened by those of us who do not feel that women offer us anything we need. Many of us “evil single men” can cook, clean, pay bills, and tend to daily chores without any micromanagement. We just enjoy our lives the way they are, and the “wives” will just have to learn to accept this.

Jan 17, 2009 - 11:43 pm 282. relaxed_diplomacy:

At the end of the day women get much more out of relationships than men. Men are much more capable and ultimately have higher standards. Women feed off men physically, psychologically, intellectually, financially, etc, and the dynamic is entrenched and habitual. This is historical partly because it maximised offspring, evolution at work. But this system involves ignorance and pain and inefficiency, and at times inequality, that can be replaced with better ways of doing things.

Mar 11, 2009 - 10:18 pm 283. Bonko:

This was a great article and a disinterested analysis. Helen, you did not involve your ego in writing this, which is fantastic. Good job.

Dec 7, 2009 - 6:51 am 284. Rippy:

I’m a 35 year old man in California, straight, never had any desire to get married or raise kids. Been dreaming of a vasectomy since I was 18, haven’t gotten one yet.

I’ve never had a problem with not being hitched, and other than a little ribbing now and then by the more conservative people in my family, never gotten much flak for it.

I do date a lot, and currently I’m seeing a number of very nice ladies, some for months, some for years. I’d never marry any of them of course, but we’re having fun while it lasts.

And I’m not a hunk or particularly handsome; I’m short and scrawny and pale with freckles and I’m losing my hair. And I’m not even rich; in fact, I’m pretty broke right now.

But for some reason there are more women now than ever before in my life. I get enough milk for free that I have no reason to buy any cows! LOL

Personally I love how the dating scene is for single men these days. It might be different if I wanted to get married, but I don’t, and the scene is perfect for playing around, having multiple relationships, and experiencing women of all sorts from age 19 to 49. Anything goes, it’s wonderful.

Dec 7, 2009 - 8:47 pm