Pajamas Media

262 Comments

1. Jon Motherwell:

This is kind of an old story: why men don’t marry. The harsh truth is that there is little good reason for men to marry, especially today when divorce laws have been stacked so thoroughly in favor of women. Marriage is an act of total irrationality for men. The surprising thing is that men marry at all. They don’t have to do it for sex. Radical feminism has made marriage a highly unattractive proposition for men in today’s society.

Feb 7, 2008 - 4:38 am 2. Tony Ryan:

I’m with Jon on this one.

If someone can name one single positive step society has taken to make marriage even remotely attractive to men in the last 20 years I’d love to hear it.

Marriage is all about the woman. Why would any rational man want to legally hand over control of his life to her and a biased legal system?

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:09 am 3. unmarried man:

I’m 33 and not married. I’m not so anxious to join a system when it and all of its rules are set up against me.

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:32 am 4. SWLiP:

I think the problem is that young men come to the realization that they are not really needed. Boys grow up instinctively wanting to be heroes, but the irony is that successive generations of male heroics have made the world safe enough that women no longer need heroes in their lives; they want “partners.” It comes out sounding more like a business proposition, and a rather bland one at that.

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:36 am 5. Ennuipundit:

I remember a column from five or maybe even six years ago that Paul Craig Roberts wrote regarding this very issue, and essentially reaching the same conclusion. What material benefit does marriage provide to men, who can gain many of the benefits previously available within the framework of the marriage covenant outside of that covenant? If man can satisfy his sexual needs, while maintaining relationships that satisfy his need for fellowship and not sacrificing his individual freedom, then why marry.

The societal benefits are no longer nested within self-interest and therefore do not seem to be relevant. In addition, the risk involved in marriage is high. A woman can fabricate a story detailing alleged misconduct or merely express suspicions that her soon to be ex-husband has abused her, or has proclivities to abuse their children, or children in general, and his rights are curtailed for the protection of others. The presumption of innocence is not applicable in divorce proceedings, merely the appearance of credibility on the part of the accuser. That inverse burden of proof in itself creates a massive barrier to marriage. Using a communal property model that mandates a fifty-fifty split of a couple’s material wealth upon divorce, and the likelihood of generous spousal and child support awards, coupled with the rate of divorce, marriage translates into an effective 25-30% reduction of wealth and future earnings for a man. Why pay that price for the cow, when milk is readily available for free?

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:39 am 6. Phil:

I am a young single man in my late twenties who has not “had the chance to settle down” yet. I’ve been living overseas in some pretty hostile countries doing relief work and I’ve been cut off from civilization for the past few years, so I guess that explains why.

I can’t speak for others, but when I was younger there were some things that I knew I wanted to do (eventually getting married being one of them), but I had to do them in the right order otherwise it would have been very difficult. So I guess I prioritized my goals. Does putting off marriage for now while I accomplish other worthy goals make me immature? I should think not; in fact I can think of few more immature things to do than to get married and then run off to accomplish what you want to do on your own.

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:39 am 7. Travis:

I was never a perpetual adolescent, I was a perpetual adult. Teenagers were a group I never understood even when I was that age. I couldn’t wait to grow up.

It strikes me that for every phenomenon there is an equal and opposite phenomenon.

In this case I think we’ve also hit on the reason for record re-enlistments. The military life is a life that suits young men, by challenging them.

In another age, these men would be far more celebrated.

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:44 am 8. Webutante:

How about ‘both-and?’

Feminism has probably made marriage less attractive in some cases, as some women become more militant and less feminine and thus less attractive to the average American man.

In addition, I think we’ve lived/are still living through the greatest economic expansion in the history of the world. As such, we’re all more spoiled and soft than we realize. We cannot discount this factor. That includes many of the marriagable men.

I think it’s easy to reduce the problem to one convenient cause when a constellation of causes seems in order.

One other interesting trend does seem to be emerging: men who do marry seem to be having more children today. This pendulum may swing the marrige rate back too.

No matter how politically obsolete feminism tries to make men, the reality has never changed: women need men and vice versa.

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:52 am 9. Larry:

Why Men don’t marry? Being in the trenches all of these years, from my point of view, women don;t want men, but Bad Boys. If they do want to marry a man, then the man is an executive making a six figure salary. The dynamics of marriage have changed, which i agree with others, makes getting married and even staying married not an ideal solution. There are some women who believe in following their HUSBAND, but others who are more independent and follow their own path, thus the problem.
THere are a lot of girls out there wanting to get married, but no real women who are up to par, worthy of raising a family and being a home maker or even balancing home and work.
Before you start pointing the finger at why Men don;t marry or even assigning blame, why don;t you look at the type of men that are getting married.

Feb 7, 2008 - 5:57 am 10. tolbert:

For young males the proposition of marriage has become “all risk and no reward”.

I have been married for a very enjoyable 25 years, but the times they have changed.

I have a 10 year old son and under no circumstance would I ever encourage him to get married.

We reap what we sow and this harvest is indeed cursed for it was sown with a hard and bitter seed.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:01 am 11. David Thomson:

“the reward for being an adult in our society is so low, especially for men.”

White men are the perceived enemies of society. The message has been heard loud and clear. Dr. Helen is merely commenting on the inevitable result. At this very moment, a grossly ignorant human being named Barack Obama may become our next president of the United States. He is the quintessential example of affirmative action gone amuck. What more to you need to know? A vacuum of leadership threatens this country. David Duke and his buddies are anxious to fill it.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:11 am 12. rosignol:

Simple question: what’s in it for us?

The old answer was ’social standing’. People weren’t really considered adults until they were married and had a kid. This is no longer the case.

After seeing my parents marriage end in divorce, and several of my friends have had their lives royally f’d up by unfaithful, scheming, b******, I have a pretty long list of reasons not to get married.

The only reason I can see for getting married is that it’s easier to afford a house on two incomes… but even that is more of a con than a pro these days. Even if the real estate market wasn’t screwed up, if the relationship falls apart, the judge will award her the property (and probably the newer car) anyways.

Is it any surprise that more and more men are deciding it’s not worth it?

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:20 am 13. DoktorNo:

When I see the social trends like this, I feel sorry for the future of Western Civilization.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:33 am 14. Josh:

I am in my mid-30’s and have been married for almost 9 years. I was fortunate to find a woman who became my best friend during our relationship, and with whom I enjoy time even without the physical/romantic piece of the relationship which has also been intrinsic to our success. While I agree that the rules are certainly set up against men, I wanted to and became married because I had a desire to raise a family, and do so at an age where I will be healthy and able when my children are in their 20’s, 30’s, and even 40’s. Not everyone agrees with me, but I believe the best and healthiest way to raise said children is within the context of a healthy marriage. I realize, however, how fortunate I have been, and that not everyone finds someone as I did. Certainly, I would not have married had I not found someone I considered to be an ideal partner.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:36 am 15. M:

It isn’t news to most men that Marriage isn’t a cost-effective proposition. But what probably is news, even to men, is how likely it is to end up stripping them of anything resembling rights and disenfranchising them. The financial ruin that follows divorce is credited for the huge rate of male suicide compared to women.

But this is just one element of our society’s war on men – even more horrific is how men are punished in an entirely different way by the courts than women are. As a culture we seem to be saying that we don’t want men anymore. Don’t be suprised if they respond by finding some way to go elsewhere.

-M

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:38 am 16. SGT Ted:

“…give young men a choice between serious drama on the one hand, and Victoria’s Secret models, battling cyborgs, exploding toilets, and the NFL on the other, and it’s the models, cyborgs, toilets, and football by a mile.”

And here is one of the reasons why: Snearing at mens entertainment choices. I am married and a grandfather. I don’t care for much of whats on TV and chickflicks are chickflicks, not guyflicks. When was the last time this woman sat with her man to watch exploding cyborges or interact with him in a video game? Why is sitting like a drone in front of the TV at night “better” than interacting with others playing an online video game?

Why is her entertainment choice “better” than his? Isn’t it the typical feminista arrogance to want to control what men like to watch?

These types of women don’t get men and they don’t want to; they want them to be girlfriends with a penis and upperbody strength, rather than individuals with their own likes and dislikes that are very different from women. duh. Talk about self centered thinking.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:38 am 17. Darksbane:

I was married at 21 and divorced because my wife cheated at 26. Would I like to be married again? Sure. But logic says I’d be an idiot to do so. I got lucky in that my ex-wife was so eager to be with her other man that she accepted a 50/50 split of assets, but what are the chances the next woman I marry will do the same when she dedides that life needs to be more exciting. Logic says that marriage is inferior to the security and financial stability of being single.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:40 am 18. Mark Buehner:

I agree with the reality of marriage for men, but the idealized marriage as portrayed in media is actually much worse.

Find me a sitcom where the husband isnt an overgrown adolescent on the receiving end of serial ‘life lessons’ from his spouse (or children!). From televsion to movies to commericals, men are portrayed as inept boobs and their wives as a nanny or mommy. Say what you want about Father Knows Best, but at least it presented something young men might aspire to.

I understand somebody has to be a foil in television, and since political correctness has ruled out women and basically everyone else the brunt falls on men. Fine, its just another cross men will silently bear- but don’t expect us to run to the altar for ‘adulthood indoctrination’, which is the appetizing proposition people like Kay Hymowitz seem to believe marriage is.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:41 am 19. seejay:

Dr. Helen is right of course. But there’s more: it’s mainly WHITE MEN that our government, media, and “education establishment” want to just GO AWAY!
David Thomson, in his comment above states that “David Duke and his buddies” are anxious to step in. Mr. Thomson says this like it’s a BAD THING!
Dr. Duke is a White Advocate! If we have to put up with Black, Latino, and Muslim advocates why are there no “good” White advocates? Because White people, especially White Men, are to be “phased-out”! The “DIVERSITY” nazis HATE WHITE MEN and have been extremely effective at reducing our numbers.
Wake-up White men! We have made such a rich and successful world that the non-Whites have decided they can now take it from us!
The ONLY WAY TO SAVE OUR NATION AND OUR PEOPLE is for us to finally stand together! Not against anyone, but FOR our people and a future for our children!

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:42 am 20. skymuse:

I am 37 and have bought a home with my girlfriend. We do not plan on having children. In addition, we do not share the same views on finances — she still has over 25k of student loans plus multiple credit card debts, whereas I am a Dave Ramsey disciple and have no debt other than our mortgage.

It has nothing to do with cyborgs or partying; I don’t want to absorb her debt, and if the absolute worst happens, we only have to deal with selling the house and there are no further legal entanglements.

In the meantime, if she gets serious about dealing with her debt then I can get serious about a more legal and permanent arrangement.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:46 am 21. Sol:

It seems to me there’s something screwy about the way the question is being framed if a preference for action movies and sports over “serious” drama is considered a sign of perpetual adolescence. I’m 30-something doing my best to create a family, and I certainly prefer action movies and spots. My father is in his 60s, and so does he; and I’m pretty sure my grandfather never chose a drama over a baseball game.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:51 am 22. Peg C.:

I found my hubby on the internet when I was 38; but for that I am pretty sure I’d never have married. Plenty of women don’t want or are unsuited for marriage as well.

As for men, I look around at the young women I see and know and can’t imagine being a man and wanting to be with them, much less entrust myself and my treasure to them. This is what the sexual revolution has wrought: women and men who only need each other for sex. The forces driving the young to marriage and adulthood no longer exist. No one “needs” children and they are easily avoided; they must truly be wanted now.

It’s amazing anyone marries anymore, and that’s a tragedy. I do believe civilization depends on stable families and homelives.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:51 am 23. Don:

Let’s see. You raise the price of cigarettes through taxes and the use goes down. Surprise. You have other advocates pushing to raise gas tax sky high to reduce people from consuming gas. Yet, the ‘bad boys’ propagators don’t get that raising the price of marriage with the 50/50 chance of failure is going to deter human behavior? What was the logic/rationale for the first two cases?

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:51 am 24. justadolescent:

Helen,

You are very close, but you’re still missing the mark. ” … The reward for being an adult in our society is so low, especially for men.”

It’s ONLY low for men … and that’s the trouble.

Women used to bring something to the relationship table – stability. Men brought security, women brought stability. That promoted the environment for raising a family. Women no longer bring stability – indeed, have demanded their “right” to destroy the family at their first whim, and have the man pay for it for the rest of his life.

Guess what? We don’t like that deal. So, we’re taking our marbles and going to play elsewhere. Adolescent, you say? Seems like name calling to me by the very people who set up the rules to favor themselves.

Women used to also bring sex to the table. Now, they give it to us for free on the second date, and more shockingly, to anyone for free on the internet.

Have you seen what women are doing in front of the camera lately? And the vast number of them doing it?

Women just don’t think like men. We weigh our options and do what’s in our interests. Women live in a world they constructed and believe their actions have no consequences.

It’s quite sad, really. Because I’d love to get married again and start a family with a woman I could love.

Too bad women have made that such a bad deal for me.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:55 am 25. David Thomson:

Excuse me—but where is my comment posted only a few minutes ago? Am I being censored for arguing that manhood is essentially attacked because of its perceived connection to the white race? Something is really wrong.

Feb 7, 2008 - 6:55 am 26. Ralph Phelan:

Webutant:

One other interesting trend does seem to be emerging: men who do marry seem to be having more children today.

Josh:

While I agree that the rules are certainly set up against men, I wanted to and became married because I had a desire to raise a family

Sounds like “wanting to be a father” is pretty much the only reason strong enough for wanting to put up with the downsides.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:00 am 27. Kasper Hauser:

As the old saying goes “Why buy the cow when Baskin Robbins is giving away all 84 flavors for free?”

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:03 am 28. Brian:

Mark–check out “How I Met Your Mother” on CBS. Granted, the married couple is young and so far childless, but it’s really portrayed as a marriage of equals. Two of the other main characters were in a serious relationship, but broke up when the woman was afraid of commitment. And Neal Patrick Harris is a serial womanizer. Funny and a much more accurate portrayal of life for New Yorkers in their late 20s.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:05 am 29. Dr. Gregory G. Oman:

Dr. Helen,
Obviously there is no one answer. One common thread is men are not being taught how to be men by a man in the home. The glorification of materialism, fear, lack of faith, selfishness, any and all of these are reasons. I cannot imagine it bodes well for society as committed relationships and the determination to raise a solid family continues downward in our country.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:06 am 30. Joe:

Don’t just ask why men don’t want to marry, ask what women have done to make themselves so unattractive to a potential mate. It takes two to tango, perpetual adolescence in men would be only half the dance.
My brother is spending a huge chunk of his income on child support. The problem is that two of the three kids are not his. The court determined that since he acted like a dad he could pick up the tab like a dad. Funny thing is that five minutes after my brother bailed out the real father of the two moved in; and “Mom” bought a a convertible with “Dad’s” first check.
This is just one example of how the risk/reward ratio doesn’t make marriage worth considering.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:06 am 31. Bill:

My parents, lovely people both, stayed together in an unhappy marriage “for the kids.” They taught me by example to delay marriage at minimum until I was 30. I spent my 20s and early 30s working abroad and picking up a couple graduate degrees in the US.

By the time I reached my early 30s and began to look for a wife in the US I found in the market the following… (1) immature women who had married at 24 wanting to be taken care of and were subsequently divorced and living out some sort of post-adolescent partying fantasy at 30; (2) women who had unresolved male/father issues and whom I didn’t want to get near.

It was nearly impossible to find an educated, professional, single American (or Canadian) woman who was secure enough to truly enjoy solitude and independence.

One of my lovers (a woman with a flourishing career) who was desperate to get remarried actually told me once that it was OK for me to want to be alone occasionally. In fact, she said that she would permit me to have an office/den in our house into which I would be allowed to retreat occasionally. Needless to say I exited swiftly.

I ended up marrying in my late 30s an exquisite, foreign-born woman who emigrated to North America after getting a PhD and establishing her career. She is brave and resourceful having left all of her family, whom she adores, to move halfway around the world in order to secure the life she wants.

She wanted a husband who was a companion, a friend, and a father to children. Most of all, however, she wanted independence within interdependence.

We encourage each other to take time away from each other and our family in order to maintain and develop friendships and simply to get a break.

Accordingly, our marriage works extremely well. I find marriage fulfilling and even better than my wonderful single life. But boy did I have to search long and hard. I completely understand why men don’t marry.

BTW, this is a phenomenon in Canada, too, where I lived for a seven years. Canadian laws are even more discouraging of marriage than American ones are.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:07 am 32. leishman:

Interesting topic. I’m 59, with four kids (three sons, one daughter) ages 22 to 34, none married or even close to being so, nor desiring to be so, and I’m not sure why. Some of it is educational (the older three are still pursuing their education, i.e. graduate school). My daughter is afraid of having kids that she will “screw up” (she’s in a PhD psychology program!) and two of my sons are not on the traditional success-trip. My two youngest sons (29 and 22) have both seen the ways our system that “empowers” women at their expense (bogus sexual harrassment allegations) and that tells them of their manifold and manifest flaws for being male. I think they believe that young women’s many expectations make my sons think it’s not worth the trouble.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:08 am 33. El Hombre:

This one is too easy. Why buy a cow when you can get milk for free? Uh, remember when people married to have sex? No, didn’t think so.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:12 am 34. Lamont Cranston:

Did you know that your live-in female partner can request a restraining order against you, and get it? All she has to do is be willing to state that she “feels threatened.” You have no appeal, there is no trial, and you do not get to tell your side of the story. With a stroke of his pen, the judge will throw you out of your home and banish you to at least 1000′ away. If you’re lucky you’ll get to go and retrieve your clothes.

This can be your apartment, your house you build with your own hands, or even a dwelling that’s been in your family for five generations. Doesn’t matter. What matters is she “feels threatened.”

Even if she calms down and the retraining order expires, it will sit there, on your record forever, and any time you have to interface with officialdom, you’ll have to explain it.

Cohabiting is a fools game. I’m married, and actually pretty damn happy. But I got very, very lucky. I’d never do it again. All the legal power is in the woman’s hands, and if she gets mad, you’re doomed.

Lamont

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:12 am 35. charles:

I didn’t marry until I was 30. I don’t recall avoiding it, I just hadn’t met the right person. When I did, I married her. She turned out not to be the one (technically since she left, I guess I wasn’t the one). It crushed me and I am hesitant to even date more than 4-5 times for fear of getting hurt like that again. I would much rather be married than not, but I don’t trust women. I’m sure I have some issues to work out.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:15 am 36. Pixelkiller:

So, what’s the complaint? Is there a complaint? A young man needn’t get married as there are so many agreeable young women with “round heels” running about.
Back in the 6th grade I believe, while studing ancient Greek history, there was a story or play about yet another Greek war. The women of this little Greek state all got together and agreed that there would be no more sleeping with their men until those same men agreed to stop fighting and killing. A dilema; no more war or no more sex. In the story it worked and the warring stopped. Musta been a morality play, ya think?
To put it in coarser and more modern language, “Why buy a cow when milk’s so cheap?”.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:17 am 37. Steve:

This subject and last weeks are related in ways you haven’t thought of yet.

Feminism has been spoken of earlier and I think this is the major factor in the decision to not marry. Men are pigs, rapists, pedophiles; the battle cry of enough “women” to make any male hesitate (for life) before “committing.” Western Civilization is not dead, but life support has been turned off and the patient is gasping for air–thanks to Gloria Marie Steinem (and her ilk).

How does this relate to middle age virginity? Simple, “pigs” & “rapists” have no chance. This is part of the confidence or esteem that was mentioned last week. It is what is beginning to bounce around in my head and that is sad.

When it comes right down to it, the successful woman doesn’t need me and I sure don’t need her. I’ll spend my money on my motorcycle or trips to Europe to ride said motorcycle, not on a empty shell who only socializes with me because I liquidate my portfolio on her and I’ll bet my last dollar that that is what pisses women off the most.

Man, do I sound bitter!?! I’ll get off my soapbox now.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:18 am 38. Ed Piman:

When I hear about gays demanding the right to marry, I always wonder why on earth they would want to. Some people just don’t know when they’re better off.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:19 am 39. David Thomson:

“We do not plan on having children.”

Such an attitude if widely shared dooms Western Civilization. There is no hope for the future. It is impossible to raise children in a narcissistic culture. We must also face the awkward fact that the Islamic extremists usually have large families. I have serious issues with Pat Buchanan. He is not even close to being a favorite of mine. Actually, I consider him to be something of a buffoon. He is nonetheless right to warn us about the frightening repercussions concerning our dramatic drop in population.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:19 am 40. Kent G. Budge:

As others have hinted, I think the question is being posed backwords. Given the current incentive structure, the wonder is not that so many men are refusing to marry, but that so many are still getting married.

My motivations for getting married were largely religious; the particulars need not concern us here. My motivations for remaining married include the original religious ones, but also a strong sense of duty (not necessarily religious in nature) towards the children of my marriage and also a pragmatic concern with the economic ruin that would follow divorce.

Some of the talk here suggests that your readers feel marriage was once all about the man and the woman and has mutated to being all about the woman. In fact, marriage is mostly about the kids, as it pretty much has always been. From that perspective, I can only agree with teh commenter who said that Wstern civilization is in trouble. We are in free fall, and the pavement is coming up might fast.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:21 am 41. James:

I read that piece myself when it came out and wrote a quick little blog post on it. This was one section that pretty much summer up my opinion:

As I was once told in a course on how to be a salesman, ‘Every persons favorite radio station is WIIFM’ (What’s in it for me?). I fail to see how anything in that story amounted to anything other than ‘you should work hard because I say so’. If you want to figure out why people change their behavior, do a cost benefit analysis.

And that is pretty much it.

-j

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:23 am 42. Skyler:

I’m with SGT Ted. Why is it that a “serious” drama is better than an action movie? Or exploding toilets?

There are “serious” action movies, too. The movie “300″ comes to mind. It teaches the importance of manly virtues such as courage, honor, dedication to country and freedom.

I suppose since it puts these critical themes in a truly dangerous element instead of being about feelings and emotional commitments, then it’s not really “serious.” It can’t be about life and death of nation and individual if it’s “serious.”

The same even goes for exploding toilets. No “serious” woman can ever look for humor in an exploding toilet of course.

Give me an exploding toilet over Bridget Jones’ Diary any day. The former at least makes me laugh. The latter makes me nauseous to see such pathetic lack of personal character.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:23 am 43. cro:

I find it all pretty interesting. I’ve been happily married for 14 years… And there’s no way in hell I’d do it again.

It’s been good, but it hasn’t been worth the loss of all the things I wanted to achieve in life. Marriage is a hindrance.

Kids? Well I’d have loved that…but the wife had an abortion (she has parental baggage from being abused and abandoned as a kid – Had I known heh)

The whole economic view is spot on. Marriage has given me nothing that I could not have had single, and it has burdened me with so much that I would never have had to deal with if I had avoided marriage. The costs out-weigh the benefit.

Hell the thing that’s brought me the most joy in my life is my Dog!

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:25 am 44. Bill:

I’m 46 years old, and never been married. Never really been interested, really. Not because I’m a perpetual adolescent, but because I’ve never met a woman that I’d really want to marry. A large part of that is that a large number of women go into a relationship with the belief that the man owes them something.

I know a lot of unmarried women in my age group. And almost to a one, they place all blame for their being unmarried on the men. Only one actually takes the effort to talk with men, and shows interest in them when they’re out together. Of course, she was married for 15 years. The interesting thing is that when she was married, she listened to all her female friends complain about men, and by proxy, she placed the blame on men. After her divorce, when she reentered the dating pool herself, she did a complete 180, and now she wonders why any man in his right mind would get involved with a woman these days. It makes things a lot harder for her, because guys are so used to women “having a chip on their shoulder” (her words), it takes them a while to realize and accept that she takes them seriously.

Since I’m not fat, ugly, stupid, broke/unemployed, or the like, my female friends have had to come up with all sorts of explanations for my unmarried state. They range from my being gay, to “afraid of women”, to “permanent adolescent” to “too picky” (yeah, it’s the guys who are too picky), to “selfish”. Like this article, those opinions were developed without any input from actual men. The only one to actually ask me was the divorcee, and she followed the question with “not that I blame you for not wanting to”.

Unfortunately, a majority of women these days seem to expect men to be walking wallets who will do their bidding, and resent the fact that they’re not walking up to the plate.

A large complaint men have is that women won’t take responsibility. Everything that goes wrong is his fault. Articles blaming men just reinforces the stereotype that these women are spoiled brats we’re better off without.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:30 am 45. solarity:

At the risk of gross over-generalization, it strikes me as wise to consider the fundamental underlying truth in my grandmother’s oft-quoted philosophy regarding men, sex and the free market: “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:30 am 46. Dave:

I can tell you why I’m divorced, which may explain why so many men don’t get married. “Bait and switch” is why.

Soon after I got married, my ex-wife packed on 40 pounds, decided sex wasn’t that important anymore, and determined that I didn’t make enough money for the lifestyle she wanted. After she put the weight on and I realized that my dream of starting my own business (stated clearly pre-marriage) wouldn’t be supported but actually undermined, I came to realize that I was a general all-around inconvience. If it wasn’t what she wanted to do, when she wanted to do it, what she wanted to buy, or how the house was supposed to look, it was a problem.

What’s in for me? Why would any woman think I would put up with that, especially from a woman I’m not having sex with. I find it bizarre that my ex-wife didn’t realize I’d have a problem with it.

For men, if you’re not going to be sexually satisfied, there’s no reason to be in a relationship. If you don’t want kids, there’s no reason to get married.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:31 am 47. Suzanne:

I used to be a feminist. Not so much anymore. I’m ashamed of them.

The ongoing crop of American feminists, this is for you:

You’re reaping what you sow.

Unlax. Give men a break.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:32 am 48. The Gaunt Man:

I think the answer for why men don’t marry is two-fold. Like Josh, I am in my early thirties, and married. I also found my ideal partner.

Part of what makes her ideal (and a partner) is that we talk. When there’s a problem, we discuss it, like rational adults. That’s the first flaw in the prospect of marriage today: with divorce being (relatively) quick and easy, especially for women, there’s a meme that says a marriage must be perfect. They’re not. Marriages are sometimes ugly, painful, and hard. Not surprising, as they are a subset of something called “Life”.

Second, as many here have mentioned, it seems to be “all risk, no reward” in many cases. I have known and dated many women in the past who wanted a man to treat them like a lady, treat them like an equal, open the door for them, pay them an equal wage, pay for dinner, respect their opinion, be politically correct, let them speak their mind, watch your language, have their cake and eat it too. When offered this deal, is it any surprise men would rather say, “no thank you”?

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:34 am 49. Zooman:

I’m a 56 year old man who’s never married. Whew! Isn’t life grand? I’ve escaped a few close calls but managed to maintain my liberty. My advice to anyone who isn’t driven to reproduce … stay single. Going it alone is a treasure trove of adventure and self-fulfillment. I’m self-centered and couldn’t care less. What would you expect? I’m made in God’s image, you know (the Bible tells me so!).

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:35 am 50. Jon D.:

I think the first four comments combined say it all.
I say this as a relatively happy married man with 2 little boys; but one with many friends and a brother who have often echoed the sentiments of the comments above.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:37 am 51. Santiago:

I am a 21 year old male, definitely not married, though I want to be.

To be perfectly honest, the number of women who would make good wives – who are compatible in terms of their interests, their intelligence, etc., and who also doesn’t have a personality that might make them do bad things – be unfaithful, irrationally demanding, etc., is very low.

If you want to ask who is actually being in a land of immaturity these days, I would say to look at women. They are not taught to think rationally, to tackle problems forthright, to discuss things like adults.

Instead I see lots of “women” who float through life in a semi-conscious haze, who think avoiding thinking about their problems will make them go away, and who are incredibly passive-aggressive in their dealings with other humans.

I’m content to wait. The right girl will come along some time.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:38 am 52. Ten:

Helen, as a single father who’s been through the divorce industry’s ringer for 12 years, and who still loves women, I can easily confirm Baskerville’s observations about the staggeringly unconstitutional family law problem. Marriage means vast personal risk, typically to men. I’m not going there ever again and I’m sure millions agree with and hold that decision themselves.

But I want to address the myths I’ve uncovered in those 12 years, a dozen years dating perhaps two dozen women.

1. The notion that women want emotional security is a myth. They want financial security and evidently by nearly any means. Emotional security these days is constituted of replacing the male protector with the State. Men are actually impediments to such “security”, hence the security of a male companion or life partner is destroyed. American women place no evident value on the emotional security of a true partner, per se. In fact, they reject and even destroy it when they find it.

2. Communication. Pursuant #1, a typical single woman has built a network of like-minded women and thus-emasculated single men. Communications are limited to vagaries, superficialities, and keeping up the luxury of State-assisted escapism. Men, as before, are girlfriends, and not equipped for classic male relationships of any duration. The myth of a need for communication is just that. The irony is that the more communicative a man is, the more he becomes a girlfriend.

3. The most disturbing myth is that of the desirable sensitive male, that again pursuant #1 and #2. Every single male friend I have confirms that women have far more need to be spoken down to or at than they do to be treated as an intellectual equal or emotional/spiritual peer. In fact, women consistently admit being attracted to abusive men, the Bad Boys they think excite them and give them access to alpha characteristics. The sensitive, compassionate, truthful male is obsolete. Women no more respect them than they can themselves.

Without question, the contemporary, liberated, American female is a quagmire of internal conflict, torn between the “excitement” of going it on her own against/with male curs because it excites her, and living with the knowledge that society and government policy offer her some degree of protection from them. She is by now her own self-fulfilling prophecy

She has accepted being taught that her animalistic sex-in-the-city core is all she is, and that higher level function such as spiritual love, permanence, fidelity, honor, and accountability are social impediments. The feminization of women themselves at the hands of feminism’s myths has stripped her of her self-worth, to replace it with the accouterments of political access and the myth of liberation.

While it’s painful to see that many of us (including in this thread) have likewise accepted the postmodern, feminized, secular-progressive myth that men need only sexual access, it’s far more painful to see how we’ve stripped the very soul from the American feminine experience. Contemporary women revel in their inner “goddesses”, even while believing they are no more than vehicles for petty thrills and social competition.

Why are American men staying single in droves? The answer is that there are no real single women left in this country in any quantity. Men die years earlier than women, especially when single, while women own billions of dollars more in personal property, partly as the result.

The final myth is that men need only sex and that women need companionship. Precisely the opposite is true — men greatly desire bona fide, classical female companionship and women do not desire true male companionship unless they can compete with it, having been sold that “progressive” bill of goods.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:39 am 53. JFP:

I don’t know that there’s a difference here between men and women in not wanting to get married. The original article mentioned the “extended adolescence” of both men and women. Neither was willing to settle down right away. The author talked, in different articles, of what young men and women do with their time in their 20s and 30s. She suggests that men look less mature in what they do during this period than women do. That may be, but I don’t see that men are primarily to blame for lots of women not wanting to get married when they are young.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:39 am 54. KBay:

Faith and love.

I’ve been married 20 years. When we married, he had debt, no assets, and was restarting school. I had 3 degrees, a professional career and a nice salary and wasn’t too keen on the idea of marriage. I married him on faith and love; he married me on love and faith. We believe in commitments. We’ve been severely tested. The Bible says that God stands as a witness between us, and we are not about to walk out on that. That’s what we are teaching our kids, too.

And we’re pretty happy with it. Call us old fashioned.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:39 am 55. Troll King:

Didn’t Chesterton say 100 years ago that no rational man would get married? His point wasn’t that marriage is somehow a wrong thing to do. His point was similar Blaise Pascal’s statement that the heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing of.

The question, IMHO, isn’t so much “Why aren’t getting married?” It’s “Why are more men thinking with their heads rather than their hearts?”

I can’t say why that’s true in the general sense. I can only talk about my own experience as a 44-year-old never married male:

1. I wanted to marry my high school sweetheart. But she cheated on me, and then, when I got mad about that, she cheated on me again. Being a bit neurotic, I blamed myself and thought somehow I wasn’t man enough to keep her. When we split up, she met a new guy within three weeks. He was a carpenter, later became a successful General Contractor with his own business. He provided for her well. She paid him back, 16 years later — having an affair with her son’s ice hockey coach. Guess I wasn’t so much the problem after all.

2. I wanted to get married a few years later, but my live-in girlfriend slept with her ex-boyfriend one night and gave me the clap. When I came back from the doctor’s office, she denied it. For several days before finally admitting it. She even tried to turn it around and say I must have cheated, ignoring that I knew that I hadn’t. Obviously, I had no intention of marrying a woman who would lie to my face.

3. A few years later, I was talking about marriage with a third woman. She was a highly successful woman, but she believed that while men were fun to sleep with, a real emotional commitment could only be had among women. So she began a relationship with a woman, saying that she could have a “real” relationship that way. I laughed and said, “Men can’t be trusted, so you’re going to date a woman? Let me know how that works out for you.” Zip forward three years — her girlfriend cheated on her three times and dumped her for a fourth guy. In fairness to my former girlfriend, she called up later and apologized, saying she gets it.

4. I was planning to go to Africa in the Peace Corps. During the months leading up to my leaving date, I became involved in a relationship. I didn’t write her back enough while overseas, and when I returned, she didn’t want anything to do with me. It seems she was more committed to a relationship with me, than with me. That is, when I didn’t meet her “writing back” criteria, she dumped me overboard. The fact that there was a six-month postal strike overseas didn’t affect her.

5. I became involved with a woman. I was eager to get married. Practically every week, she gave me a reason to avoid the commitment. She ridiculed my religious faith and my intellectual pursuits, she put down men around me, she put me down around my friends, she poured out her attention on a pair of dogs, and cut me off sexually, saying I’d become (1) too fat, and (2) that if I wanted the milk, I should buy the cow. After we broke up, she began a series of blog posts in which she gave me a hard time (which meant that I’d occasionally go there and ask her to take down posts putting me down), and then posted graphic material about her current sex life, including comparisons between the new guy and me. At which point I wondered to myself — good thing I wasn’t the sucker who paid for that cow. Why overpay?

Anyway, this gives a good idea of why I’ve been reticent to make a commitment. Commitment follows reliability and trust. My guess is that more men are thinking with their heads rather than their hearts because more and more women are demonstrating signs of being unreliable and untrustworthy.

*****

Lastly, the quoted article is insulting. Men are sick of being lectured to and put down by women, especially given the arrogant assumption of moral superiority that’s so common.

My two cents.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:40 am 56. RodgerS:

Where does the state of denial of my last two wives come from who seem to love defining themselves from on high and being in a perpetual state of “right?”

The Boss!
My first ex-wife decided that she was the decision-maker and could control her husband and the relationship. Being loving and attentive in preference to applying complaints and criticism was beyond imagination.

The Workaholic!
My second ex-wife characterized the book on the Care and Feeding of Husbands as the Care and Feeding of Children. Being loving and attentive in preference to applying complaints and criticism was beyond imagination.

The I Want a Committed Partner!
My current girlfriend/spiritual wife who is loving and attentive (and expects the same from me) doesn’t follow the first two rules of my first two adult and savy women, both of which my first two wives were, as evidenced by their claims of “knowing” me and the correct and appropriate ways of dealing with and having a relationship with me.

How many men are excited about having to get divorced from their so-called adult, savy wives? The probability of getting a divorce is at least 50% by the stats I saw and at this point 67% for me by my stats.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:40 am 57. Robert:

I’m 54 and have been divorced twice, once when I was 27 and once when I was 47. I will NEVER submit myself to the civil court system again.

I’m in a long-term relationship right now. I expect that relationship to continue. I can’t imagine why I would invite any civil oversight of that relationship.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:44 am 58. peter:

My son is ‘marrying age’, and I know many of his friends, and Dr Helen is right on point. They are fine young men, with no interest in getting married. The real problem seems to be SYW don’t know how to treat men well – like equals, but different.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:45 am 59. Jason O:

I was married at 20 years of age and still a sophmore in college. 14 years and two children later I am still madly in love with my wife.

None of this happened by accident though. Our courtship lasted 4 years over a distance of 600 miles before the days of e-mails, cell-phones, and instant messengers. No sex either.

Women want this big commitment, but they expect it to be all about the man. When my wife and I were married, we were looking at a future, one that we could clearly see. It has had its ups and downs, but from the start we could actually envision a life together.

A woman who puts up with a man for years, services his sexual needs, and then continues to be in a relationship with him even though he shows no interest in marriage? The message she is sending the man is that he can have his cake and eat it to. I don’t blame the man here either, he’s got it pretty good and a woman who is perpetually waiting on that proposal obviously doesn’t think highly enough of herself to ditch him and find someone who will appreciate her.

Or maybe she’s not all what she thinks she is. Whatever.

The point is, I wouldn’t be with a woman who I couldn’t picture a long-term future with. Marriages end in divorce so often because people confuse sex with love or think they should do it because they’ve been together so long. Sex is sex and love is love and we really need to quit getting the two mixed up.

Maybe we do act like adolescents, but because the benefits of marriage are so low and women continue to put up with it and just complain we have no reason to change. I love my wife dearly, if she had come to me while we were dating and said she was tired of waiting for me to propose and she was thinking of ending the relationship I would have jumped into action. Some other girls I dated before her (granted, I was pretty young) I would have simply let them go. My wife is a blessing to me. Some of my other girlfriends, while fun, would have simply drug me down in the long term.

I may have been married most of my adult life, but even I can figure out why so many of my contemporaries are still single. I think I may be the exception that proves the rule.

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:48 am 60. Dan Tana:

I’m a 45 year old unmarried man. I’m busy, love my work and make enough money to own a house, support myself and my dog.

I enjoy my life, have sex with women whom I enjoy on many levels and have no desire for kids.

Why should I get married?

Feb 7, 2008 - 7:58 am 61. John M:

I married at 26 and have been married to that same woman for 21 years. We fought like cats and dogs in the early years and frankly I’m surprised we made it. I can look back and say I’ve been fortunate with my wife, but we had to work very hard to keep it together. Whoever said it was supposed to be easy? I have two young daughters whom I would like to see settle down someday and have a family of their own. Children make it all worth it I think. I don’t quite know how to process all this negative feedback about marraige. What do all these single guys think they’re going to be doing when they’re 47, when the time spent at the gym (assuming they still go) no longer leaves them “cut” but merely holds at bay the 2- 3 inches their waists want to expand, when the weekend football games leave them hobbling on Monday and they have become utterly invisible to 20 something girls? In my humble, and utterly non empirical opinion, most of these guys are probably going to deep down regret that they didn’t take the risk of grabbing one of those girls when they could.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:03 am 62. Tony Ryan:

David Thompson,

How ironic that the feminist movement and the anti-male societal views of the last 20 years have helped doom western civilisation to fall into the hands of Islam.

Still, on the plus side, once we’re all subject to Sharia you’ll find that men will be back on board the marriage train and fathering kids by the bucketload whilst soaking up the welfare payments.

For men, the downside of sharia is that we’d have to grow a beard and pretend to pray 5 times a day. The upsides are enormous. As for Horowitz and her ilk, I’d suggest they’d be less than pleased with developments.

You reap what you sow….

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:11 am 63. Big Boy:

I’m your classic strong, mature, monogamous male. At 22 I was a college graduate (smart), a military officer (responsible for other’s lives) and married (loveable). A good catch. I’m now a millionaire and still married (to the same woman, yet).

If my wife died, I wouldn’t remarry. The “modern-woman” hassle factor is too great.

Let me count just some of the ways;
1. I need an iron-clad prenup.
2. I’d have to change all of MY routines because older women aren’t malleable at all.
3. She wouldn’t like guns, fast cars, and deep-ocean sailing. And she would resent every minute I spent enjoying them. And every penny of MY money spent on them.
4. She’d want to be the point of interest in every activity. Hell, she’d insist on attending and whinning instead of doing something SHE wanted on her own.
5. She’d want me to kissy-kissy with her children/grandchildren.
6. It’s doubtful she’d carry on an intellectual conversation (and I don’t do “relationship talk”).
7. When the going gets tough (I get older, maybe ill), she’ll bail and try to break the prenup and win the Family Lotto.
8. She’d try to change me into her image of the perfect man/servant.
9. there’s more … .

I can hire a housekeeper. Set the washer. And operate the microwave.

Any product that’s more hassle than it’s worth, won’t sell.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:12 am 64. jack-999:

I’m a 60-ish guy, and I don’t think I qualify as a ‘perpetual adolescent.’ I’ve been married twice; the first marriage lasted 27 years, and the second is approaching 15 years. And I’ve raised 5 children, who range in age from 40 years to 3 weeks (the latter being ‘unplanned’, to say the least!!)

But I am agonizing over what kind of advice to give my 13 year old son, in a few more years, regarding marriage. There is *no way* that I could advise him with a clear conscience to marry an American woman in the current legal climate. It’s suicidal — perhaps even literally.

A few years ago, I would have advised him to go find a third world girl (like his mother) and bring her home. But now, even that loophole has been closed, thanks to the latest Federal insanity (not sure, but I think it’s part of VAWA) that basically offers immigrant women free citizenship in return for fabricating fake ‘domestic violence’ accusations against their husbands.

Today, I think the best advice would probably be: Go to a third world country and marry a local girl and just plan on living there util your children are grown. When your kids get to be mid-teenagers, apply for US citizenship for them, and a Green Card for your wife; if the marrieage has lasted that long, you’re probably safe. And if not, you’re only looking at a few years of child support, rather than 21 years.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:14 am 65. Tom:

I’m 38 and engaged to a single mother of a four-year old. I always thought I would marry by my late 20’s. However, I had a terrible break up after college with a woman who had cheated on me with numerous fraternity “brothers” of mine. I just sucked it up and moved on and never really dealt with the hurt and humiliation. By my mid-twenties I was sleeping around quite a bit. I’m a pretty good looking guy and it was easy. I kept this up until my mid-thirties.

Overall, while I enjoyed the sex and excitement of new partners while it was happening, it left me empty and ashamed. For the most part I became a user of women. A “Thanks for the sex, talk to you later.” type of guy.

Before I met my future wife I took a good hard look at myself and frankly, didn’t like what I saw. I wasn’t an honorable person. I was a predator. I was damaging myself and the women I used (or who used me) for sex. I was looking for intimacy through casual sex. It was disaster.

My future wife and I met on eHarmony. She’s smart, funny, good looking and strong. She left an abusive relationship and made a life for herself and her daughter long before she met me. She’s smart with money and makes huge sacrifices, without complaint, so that her daughter can go to ballet class, piano lessons, etc. One day she told me she had just mowed a neighbor’s lawn for twenty bucks. A few days later a pair of ballet slippers came in the mail for her daughter. She works hard, doesn’t complain. She knows she married the wrong guy. She knows she’s paying the price for that.

When we have problems we talk them out. We help each other and put each other first when possible. (a four year old’s needs come before mine…I learned that very quickly)

I make 150k+ per year. I have no debt whatsoever. Arguably, I could find a prettier, younger woman without a child and other baggage. However, we have a deal. We’re getting married and we’ll do what we need to do to make that happen and work through problems as they arise.

I’ve lived the “bachelor” lifestyle. Its over-rated. I’m looking forward to being a step parent and hopefully a parent. I’m looking forward to being a husband and sharing my life with her and vice versa.

Am I crazy? Nope. I realize I could lose my ass in this proposition. I’m taking a risk. Hopefully, it’ll be for the better. If not, there is no other woman I’ve ever met that I’ve even considered marrying. I totallly respect and trust her. If I can’t make it work with her then I’m just not supposed to be married. In that scenario, I pick myself up, dust myself off and move on -knowing I gave marriage my best shot with the most highly compatible person I could find after 38 years.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:15 am 66. Helen Smith:

Hi all,

Thanks to everyone so far for the comments. I received this email from Kay Hymowitz and wanted to share it with you:

Hello Helen;

“Given the hundreds of messages I’ve gotten from men concerning my recent City Journal article, I wasn’t surprised to see your post. And I have to say, while I stand by my description of the child man culture and still believe that young women’s complaints about the guys out there are based on some truth, I made a mistake in not exploring the male view.

At any rate, my next piece will be about exactly that. (Your comments section will probably help me.) I knew some men were angry, but I didn’t understand the depth and extent of their rage. I don’t think many people do.
Best regards;
A Chastened Kay Hymowitz “

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:16 am 67. ElvenPhoenix:

My brother is 33 and unmarried and likes it that way. He says that if he ever does get married she’ll “wind up with all my money”. He’s never even brought a girl home for any of our family events – Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter…my sister and I are both a little distressed by this as we would really like him to get married and have kids. She has two step-children and is unable to have any of her own, and my husband and I have six children between us. Although logically I can understand his position, surely SOMEWHERE out there is a woman who would be a good wife, as he’s a really great guy.

As to movies, well my husband prefers the romantic comedies and I like the action-adventure films. Give me James Bond or women in black leather (Underworld, Resident Evil). Action-Adventure films usually involve good people battling evil and winning. So if liking the action films makes one immature, I’m the immature one in our relationship. Geesh! Oh, and my husband is a doctor and musician who can fix anything with a huge collection of fishing poles. He’s also uber-prepared for any type of disaster that may strike us in our area. I am very blessed that he wanted me as his wife.

We have single male friends who choose to remain unmarried, usually after a hideous divorce and male friends who have remarried. One in particular is unhappy – his wife chooses to live in another county due to an ongoing custody dispute rather than joining her husband, as she originally agreed to do. And her jealousy is getting out of hand. I have to admit, if I were a man watching some of these things unfold I’d have very serious reservations about marriage.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:20 am 68. Jack Olson:

Zooman, you said you were made in God’s image, according to the Bible. According to the same source, the same God said, “It is not good for man to be alone.”

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:20 am 69. Greg:

Pardon me while I buck the trend and note that I see more than a grain of truth in Kay Hymowitz’s column.

While I disagree that enjoying the occasional video game or Michael Bay movie signifies perpetual adolescence (except perhaps in cases where obsession with those things trumps other responsibilities), my experience with other men is one that betrays many of the things that Hymowitz describes in the column– fear of responsibility, obsession with adolescent fantasies, etc.

A lot of the married men I know deeply want to be perpetual adolescents. They openly and repeatedly deride their wives to me (when their wives are safely out of earshot), they describe their own children as terrorists when they cry. They take every opportunity to spend time away from their families and “hang out with the guys” (Frankly, as a man who loves both my wife and my daugther, I’m a little sick of the constant company loyalty tests that drag me out to bars and restaurants at all hours while my wife waits for me with the baby)

These “men” told me every horror story in the book about marriage when I told them I was getting married (”Buy that motorcycle now, because once you’re married it’s all over”). They told me every horror story about parenthood when they found out we were expecting our first child (”Enjoy the pregnancy– it’s your last nine months of freedom as a couple”).

It’s not just the young guys either. An older married “man” who’s working on his first grandchild proudly told me that he had never changed a diaper in his life, in spite of having multiple children. Wow. Good for you! You managed to dodge part of fatherhood!

I can’t help but wonder why these men got married or had kids, since they obviously revile both their marriages and their progeny so much. But they are older than I am, so they come from a time when things were actually expected of them.

There are doubtless as many reasons why men stay single as there are men who stay single. But I think to pooh-pooh the obvious cultural trend toward the men-as-large-children-who-can-drink-and-buy-porn paradigm is just silly. I see it everywhere almost every day. Based on my admittedly anecdotal experience, the phenomenon that Hymowitz describes isn’t new, it just isn’t held in check anymore.

It’s not the video games, or the action movies, or even the smutty magazines. It’s the pursuit of those things at the expense of responsibilities classically associated with manhood that defines the adolescent.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:24 am 70. pete the elder:

“Find me a sitcom where the husband isnt an overgrown adolescent on the receiving end of serial ‘life lessons’ from his spouse (or children!).”

That 70’s Show with Red Foreman and King of the Hill with Hank Hill. Both have very responsible men who are engaged in their children’s lives. But you are right that they are rare.

“Do you think today’s single young men are “child-men in the promised land,” or rational adults who are turning to video games and alternative lifestyles because those are more rewarding activities?”

Both. I got married at 24 six years ago, but saw it as primarily a spiritual commitment that I made with my wife to raise a family (we have one son so far and hope to have several more). Sex wasn’t an option before marraige for me and we went through premarital counseling through our church and had the support of our friends and families so there were rewards from our community when we got married. We also did the Family Life Today conference for premarried couples, which I have seen work great improvements in other marriages. And I still play video games, watch movies where stuff blows up, and hang out with my male friends doing guy stuff almost every week, but I do it in moderation. Work and family comes first.

That was the way I was raised, but was also a conscious choice as I had roommates and other peers who went the entertainment and no family route and I was advised by some older male coworkers not to get married.

Almost all of my male 20 and 30 something friends are like me and are happily married with some of them having up to 3 kids so far. But almost all of these males also attend church regularly and have wives that are good, mature, and responsible people.

The question comes down to what is marriage? If you believe that it is a spiritual commitment before God to raise a family together then it still makes sense to get married. Even though society may not honor my marriage, my extended family and church community does.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:25 am 71. Jessica Troisi:

Lol- it sounds to me like you boys are getting pretty defensive over being called immature. Why can’t you all just accept your fate as the inferior gender? Stop debating the obvious and go do something useful with your testosterone saturated manliness.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:30 am 72. RodgerS:

The ability to split up and go it alone for women has increased in our society. So-called adult women have found a “father” in the state. A husband provides access to that “father.”

Our society is very fast-paced and impatient these days. So our relationships have become entertainment focused to help us relieve the stress of both women and men attempting to “have it all.” Like a video tape, it is much easier and simple to rent than buy for both men and women. A bad rental tape is easily returned and a new one rented without delay. A good tape, having become boring, during the second screen OR curses…the thought of having to actually get to know the actors as real people is, well, just not fun.

The dating game is now expected…who will provide that “hot’ first date? Let’s meet and talk over coffee for a few hours for our first date is not an often appreciated thought.

Of course, everyone loves to be a victim, Who wants to be left out of the special benefits of being a member of politically correct victim classes? You made me do it, you did it to me, is also very self-fulfilling and it is great to be simply right in a world of complex nuances.

In business, relationship marketing and the rolodex, has given way to the quick sell. We can even order our hot date from the internet and the projections are that your next hot date will be found on myspace. Quicker than a bar and less risky compared to those time-eating personal interactions where I might have to deal with rejection from somebody who does know or care about me, but serves as a symbol of conquest anyway.

Communication is not needed, but performance is for us adults. Well, at least until you hit 50 or 60, then it becomes fun to talk again if you still can.

What is a man? These days men are the ones that survived financially and emotionally…and believe me those men who didn’t are in the shizzzz and manliness has become cheap talk. Those men do feel and are sensitive, after all.

Being financially stretched and only sleeping with the round heels eventually loses its entertainment value as you see your health insurance rise and listen to those broken vials scattered around you, both men and women…particularly those women who talk with pride about not needing sex, if they ever did, and enjoy their all-women complaints against men roundtables and those men that, well, are all talk and no go anymore.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:31 am 73. Dan:

Helen, of all the benefits of marriage to men which have dissipated, probably the most important is sexual abundance within the marriage. The sexual pact at the core of marriage has always included two promises: exclusivity and abundance. For thousands of years, everyone understood that it is UNFAITHFUL for a wife to significantly curtail that abundance. Suddenly, in the space of two generations or so, the dominant culture and most women have forgotten this. She who messes with abundance messes with exclusivity, and lack of sexual abundance transforms marriage into marriage-lite. Marriage-lite is an inherently weak institution. Legal disincentives to men to enter it, as you’ve discussed, simply weaken it further.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:33 am 74. KJohnson:

I have often wondered when it was that we decided that “civil oversight” as one commenter put it equalled “marriage.” Who decided that it was the government who decided who is and is not married. Personally, I believe that marriage is a sacrament before God. Others, I know, don’t share that. Still, for all of us the question remains. Marriage is about commitment and not just a commitment to stay together but a commitment to build a good and growing loving relationship with your spouse. I love and respect my husband and he does the same for me.

I also agree with the commenter who talked about how men are stereotyped on TV and treated as if their different interests are inferior rather than merely different.

When my husband and I were newly married we moved to a new town for his schooling and so didn’t know anyone there for awhile. He still mentions from time to time what a gift it was that I put in the effort to learn what football was about and understand it enough to enjoy watching it with him. Now, of course, he watches it more often with guy friends who still have more enthusiasm about the game than I do, but we still enjoy watching the occasional game together.

Why do some women feel they have the right to complain so much about their husbands watching sports but the husband has no right to complain about their chickflicks or decorating shows?

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:36 am 75. jvon:

As someone going through a divorce after an 11 year marriage, I think I can offer some perspective on this.

During the marriage I spent years supporting my wife while she got her career established as a high school teacher. When she wanted a house, I bought one for us to live in, one closer to her job than our rental was.

As her position became more and more secure, she stopped doing things that one associates with a housewife — because she never considered herself one. I found myself cooking for myself, doing most of the housework (not half, most), and paying the entire mortgage (because men do that, I suppose).

One day she decided that this marriage thing was just too much work, and that she wanted a divorce.

Today I am in the process of selling the house I bought because she wanted it — and that I paid for and did all the work on — so that I can hand her half of everything I’ve earned while we were together.

The money she earned? Spent it as fast as it came in.

I’m not sure men are the irresponsible ones, but we are certainly getting a raw deal these days. It will take a lot to convince me to marry again.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:43 am 76. Joe:

By the way: Some earlier poster asked at what point in history did marriage start to become a losing proposition for men.

You might want to try Googling ‘Greta Rideout.’

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:46 am 77. emjones:

Speaking as a man in his mid-thirties, married with two great kids, I think that the only reason for a man to get married anymore is to have kids.

My generation had to deal with the explosion in divorce rates as baby boomers decided they had to have their freedom and the kids would have to bear the scars. Fast forward a decade or two and you have a generation of both young men and women who view marriage skeptically, and some who look down on the institution entirely.

Also, in today’s post Sex and the City feminist ideal, a lot of young women are acting more like gay men, than like young women of a generation ago. Its not surprising that egghead pseudo-intellectuals like Ms. Hymowitz are whining about why normal men aren’t also acting more like homosexual men. Except for the promiscuity, most men have little interest in emoting, shopping, fashion, ’serious drama’, etc.

In my opinion, no young man should even consider getting married unless he strongly feels like having children. Considering that more and more young women no longer want children either, it makes sense that the statistics show fewer and fewer males getting married.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:48 am 78. Paul:

This is yet another in a, seemingly, endless stream of articles detailing the laundry list of men’s faults. Hardly, if ever, do we get to venture into the blasphemy of maybe discussing that the attitudes of women just might play a part in things. Do we ever hear of THEIR unrealistic expectations in a mate? What about their superior attitudes?

What man wants to hook up with a Paris Hilton wannabe?

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:49 am 79. Zooman:

Jack Olson commented :
Zooman, you said you were made in God’s image, according to the Bible. According to the same source, the same God said, “It is not good for man to be alone.” Who said I was alone? My loins are fruitful but I’m not multiplying.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:49 am 80. Silicon Valley Jim:

I’m, like one of the other posters, a perpetual adult. I was responsible enough to graduate from college before my twentieth birthday. When I finished graduate school, I moved back to my parents’ home – for two weeks (it was two thousand miles closer to my job than my graduate school was). I’ve been out on my own since then. I’ve saved money, shown up at work every day, and done all the things that one would normally associate with being an adult, except get married. I’m fifty-five years old, straight as can be, and single.

Why? I think that not only marriage, but virtually anything involving any sort of relationship with women, is stacked against me. At least a significant minority of American women of my generation really don’t like men. It shouldn’t be a surprise that I don’t want the company of people who don’t like me. The usual response from women when I say something like that is “you just want somebody subservient.” I don’t. I want somebody who is as nice to me as other men are. I don’t want somebody who will twist what I say to make it an insult. I don’t want somebody who wants to change me.

Kay Hymowitz, whose writing I have admired greatly in the past, writes “give young men a choice between serious drama on the one hand, and Victoria’s Secret models, battling cyborgs, exploding toilets, and the NFL on the other, and it’s the models, cyborgs, toilets, and football by a mile.” I’m certainly not a young man, but it’s not battling cyborgs and exploding toilets for me, and only rarely Victoria’s Secret models and football. It’s chamber music, the opera, and good books, and it’s been two of those since I was a young man; opera has come later in life.

Even in 2008, I have to be the one who asks for a date, more than 90% of the time. I’m the one who ends up even more often than I do the asking (perhaps I’m just foolish that way). What’s in it for me? Sex is far less important to me than it was twenty or more years ago, and it carries with it the risk of an accusation of date rape. Women, when I mention that, ask me about the pleasure of conversation and a woman’s company. It’s not a pleasure with me to talk with somebody who really doesn’t like men, and there’s pleasure in men’s company, with a whole lot less effort.

Kay Hymowitz is free to regard me as a perpetual adolescent, but I view myself as a mature man who’s decided that women, at least American women of my generation, aren’t worth the trouble.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:51 am 81. Cmdr. Porkins:

28 and single. The biggest problem appears to me to be that women, having sought to eliminate the perceived evils of patriarchy, have almost wholesale rejected what have been termed the “manly” virtues. Things like loyalty, self-reliance, honor, integrity, and adventure. This is probably due to a misunderstanding of the universal human applicability of these ancient virtues.

But these are very real for most men, and we simply cannot respect or take seriously another human being who fails so miserably to be virtuous in almost any respect. Believe it or not, I think most men really do seek excellence in their mates, and find it terribly lacking. It seems that far too many women not only have no honor, they hate the very concept.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:51 am 82. Brian:

There’s also that society isn’t doing jack to sell marriage to men.

It’s interesting to see that women still wish to get married. Yes, the desire for babies has a stronger biological component in women than it does in men, or so we’ve been told, but marriage is a desirable thing for women even before the biological clock starts ringing. Even as little girls, they are sold the idea that their wedding will be a watershed moment in their lives. Their entertainments are wrapped up in it, whether it’s the traditional fare of the Bronte sisters or the more modern pop and sizzle of “Sex in the City”.

Men, on the other hand, have no real corresponding push towards marriage. That wasn’t always the case. When my grandfathers married, it was pretty much considered all but an economic necessity and society dictated the roles of wives and husbands in the marriage. When my father got married, the times were changing. While the economic incentives were dwindling, it was still expected that you would get married, and as soon as possible around the completion of your schooling. The roles of husbands and wives might have required a bit more negotiation, but everyone had fairly clear ideas about what was expected of them. I remember, as a teenager, listening in shock to men of my father’s generation discuss marrying their second or third choices for a wife. Abstaining from marriage simply wasn’t done for most healthy, normal men of that time.

And now? I never felt any real compulsion to get married. I did, eventually, at 28 years of age, and found that my wife and I were pretty much on our on in terms of deciding what our marriage was about and how it would work. But at no point did I feel marriage was expected of me. Popular culture has little to say that might encourage men to choose marriage. Throw in the lack of economic or social incentives, and is it any wonder that men give it little serious thought? The negatives are immediately obvious to the most casual observer. The positives for the individual are more difficult to sell. Longer life? I can get that by not smoking, regular exercise, and eating right. Companionship? I already have good friends whom I see on a regular basis. Regular and frequent sex? Uh huh, right. Pull the other one.

Not only is it a tough sell, near as I can tell, nobody is making it. The churches gave up on that years ago. Positive role models are few and far between in popular culture. The only ones who seem to be making an effort are country music stars and female scolds. Neither are likely to convince the large majority of men, especially urban men, that marriage is something they should bother with.

It’s good to hear that Ms. Hymowitz is considering a follow-up article. I’ll be looking forward to reading it.

Feb 7, 2008 - 8:59 am 83. Ten:

Receptionist: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

–Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets.

That line makes me wince. Because it’s so frequently true.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:00 am 84. Jon Motherwell:

Let’s change the focus for a second from men to women. We are now about four decades into the “feminist movement,” whose leaders said that men are oppressors, that marriage is an oppressive institution, the the relation between husband and wife is like a slave relation, that ideals of love and romance are delusions that keep women from making money, having careers, and gaining power. And so for these many decades our laws and customs have changed to reflect this new ideology. Women have money, careers, education, and can even run for president. Yet many educated young women today are still standing around waiting for some man to pop the question, give her a big rock, and take care of her until she decides she wants to move on (with his money). Get real, ladies! It’s not going to happen. Most of the young women out there are never going to get married or have children because men have now lost interest in marriage, thanks to your older “sisters” who thought they could get ahead by declaring men the enemy. Ms Hymowitz is an outstanding writer, but she seems to have forgotten that we have had a revolution in morals and customs over forty years, and it was not made by men by by women. Instead of pointing fingers, it would be better if we just learned to live with our new situation and encourage women to forget about marriage and children.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:05 am 85. Nancy Heil:

If I were a man with the feminists criticizing my every move (how about the outside work and remodelling many men do?) and easy women and the penalties of divorce, I wouldn’t marry either.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:08 am 86. Uncle Ralph:

Mark Buehner wrote [Feb 7, 2008 06:41 AM]:

Find me a sitcom where the husband isn’t an overgrown adolescent on the receiving end of serial ‘life lessons’ from his spouse (or children!). From television to movies to commericals, men are portrayed as inept boobs…

I understand somebody has to be a foil in television, and since political correctness has ruled out women and basically everyone else the brunt falls on men. Fine, its just another cross men will silently bear…

It not just television ads, but virtually all media and marketing. Next time you watch a couple being interviewed by the news-media, note who does all the talking. Or after viewing or listening to an ad, do a mind exercise of “turn the tables” by swapping roles between genders or races. You might be surprised at how biased or bigoted the skit now seems. Or just mull over this post from the personal blog of someone in the marketing biz.

I submit it’s the way we are “wired” as a blend of the hunter yang and the gatherer yin. The former is disinclined to let feelings get in the way of facts, the latter is disinclined vice versa. In concert one complements the other, but once the household’s daily need to choose one brand of, say, breakfast cereal over another supersedes the need to fend off sabertooth tigers, bridge a stream, or fabricate (and use) tools, marketing distorts the concert.

(As SWLiP [Feb 7, 2008 05:36 AM] wrote: “The irony is that successive generations of male heroics have made the world safe enough that women no longer need heroes…”)

Grown-ups, both men and women, have it within them to distinguish between fact and feeling, between virtue and vanity, and between ideology and mythology. Boys and girls, less so.

Perpetual childhood is not exclusively a guy thing.

-30-

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:15 am 87. DJ:

To steal a line from Ms. Steinem, ”I need a wife like a fish needs a bicycle.”

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:19 am 88. Dienekes:

Somewhat to my surprise I married in my late 30s, have now been married for 30 plus years. My wife and I still had some growing up to do but on the whole it’s been good and we have two good kids to show for it which makes all the difference. My son and daughter in law are coming up on five years of marriage and are doing a pretty good job of it–possibly better than we did at that age.

That said, I would not take that gamble again, for the same cost/benefit reasons. The respect for women that I once had in my younger days is long gone–based on daily observations. That is probably grossly unfair to the occasional grown up, accomplished women–but they are pretty well extinct in my part of the world. Had the microwave oven been invented a few years earlier I might never have married at all. Sex is nice, but nobody ever died from lack of it. I’m sure that I could have consoled myself with a Corvette or Cessna 185 and been okay in the end.

In all fairness, my wife is a gem. Not anybody remotely typical, but she can live with who I am. and that can’t be easy.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:23 am 89. Dark Helmet:

MSM has spent the last…… 40 some odd years tearing down the American Male. All with PC and guilt. Perhaps it’s time to realize that that there is no such thing as reverse discrimination.

I think I speak for many when I say it’s better to be comfortable and be alone than be made miserable by someone else at legal gun point.

Marriage is a commitment. When it doesn’t mean anything, it doesn’t exist.

Why would anyone be surprised that the person you’ve been treating like crap for so long has finally said ” enough”.

It’s all been part of a bigger plan to destroy this nation from the inside by killing it’s greatest strength, the family.

If only people fought as hard for that core value as they have for gay marriage…..

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:26 am 90. Mister Snitch!:

The reason the Billary campaign feels so secure in pushing its “if you don’t vote Clinton, you hate women” meme is because this kind of male-baiting carries with it little or no risk of backlash. This is the environment men live in, so it’s no surprise that men stay single in increasing numbers.

Of course, another reason is that Helen is already taken. Damn.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:27 am 91. Jenny:

skymuse,

If you were a serious Dave Ramsey disciple, you would heed his advise when he says to never buy a house with someone you are not married to.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:28 am 92. FOH:

Ennuipundit misstated something basic in his comment “If man can satisfy his sexual needs, while maintaining relationships that satisfy his need for fellowship and not sacrificing his individual freedom, then why marry.” The problem is not that aging boys can satisfy sexual needs so well as single guys, it is that they know that these days, whatever their lives are like unmarried, the sex stuff isn’t likely to be much better if they are, after a brief initial deceptive orgy. Read “Under the Blanket” (Google the book title, go read the blog) to see why this is a common issue.

There is fault on both sides- we all know many guys who don’t want to grow up, etc. But we also know many guys who are looking for the same kind of lifelong affection connection as women claim to be seeking. What causes those guys to hesitate is not horror stories about family law and property settlements, child support, etc., it is reading about or hearing from their married friends that they are as likely to (pardon the bald crudity, but the bluntness is necessary for the point) get laid as an apparently eligible man out there, as they are as a married man.

In other words, if you get married, you start with an expectation that there will be a sexual accommodation by the alleged love of your life to the reality of male sexuality. And that reality is the fact that men “feel like it” all the time, while the majority of women don’t- biochemically, the sexes are simply not the same because of testosterone.

If a wife (especially one with kids) believes that sex is only for when she feels like it or is “in the mood”- the most common attitude in the post-feminist era- I guarantee that her husband is wondering why he ever got married. He was about as likely to “score” on Saturday night at the country-western bar as he was at home, let alone a frequency actually half or a third as often as his testosterone was urging him to seek, which is coitus a couple of times a day.

I have been successfully married for a very long time- but certainly not as happily as I wish. If I were starting over, I would certainly get married again, but only after executing a pre-nup that specifically addressed the sexual issues in marriage. Compared with that, issues about how to handle money, kids, and all that stuff are meaningless.

Sex is the lubricating oil of the marriage relationship which, by its very nature of close quarters and constant exposures, is naturally frictive in a way that needs to be proactively handled. For a man, it is the foundation of his sense of the union. If the two of you touch each other a lot, and get naked together and rub bodies three times a week, regardless of what mood anyone is in to start with, you will communicate in other areas as well. If you don’t, take an honest inventory of the pairing- and I guarantee that you will find lots of other problems as well.

Without a specific and realistic understanding about this, I can’t say that I would ever advise a man to marry.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:34 am 93. Mike:

for me, it has nothing to do with the cultural condition of marriage and everything to do with the available pool of mates. I would love to have an equal partner in life, it’s pretty much the only thing I REALLY want anymore.

Most of the girls I’ve come to know sought a man who will ‘fix’ them or ‘take care of’, etc.. But, even the ones who said they were not looking for those things couldn’t handle life on their own. They’d hit a bump in the road of life and just fall apart or freak out in their own bizarre way. They all needed a man to prop them up and keep them going.

This includes women you would expect to be independent; the really smart ones, the tomboys, and even the crazy dominatrix types.

Why would anyone want a woman who would, in essence, be a burden?

It’s depressing, but what can any of us do but keep looking and hoping; but ultimately, not finding?

I can’t even say I’m alone in this, my office is full of great but very single guys. There is a grand total of 2 married men.

The men are fine, it’s the ladies that need some work.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:35 am 94. Cincinnatus:

I ever got married, I’d have a prenup that says if she cheats on me I can leave her with no money. I’m just reacting to the horror stories. I would be protecting the aggreved party, what the civil courts should be doing already… .

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:42 am 95. Coaster:

Jack-999 Has it about right. I’m 45 and divorced now. First marriage lasted 14 years, second lasted 7. The first divorce, she decided she wanted to do something different, and at the time, we had no real assets, so we just split–no kids. The second, I had come into my own a bit, but married someone with no skills, and a low pay history, but, she also had kids (not with me), so it was fine that she didn’t work and took ccare of them–which she did well. Then, she must have decided that if she took half, she could have a decent lifestyle and total autonomy, so I got the word that I was not welcome in my own home. Long story short, after selling everything and spousal support, I watched about $300,000 go right down the drain. That does not include any child support, since her kids were not mine, I was not required to pay support, but the alimony was bumped up to cover some of that…

That was about 3 years ago. I’m fine now, doing better than ever. I honestly hope she is as well. The reason I’ve become comfortable with the idea of remaining single is, quite simpply, I don’t have enough lifespan left to re-make my life, should that happen again. I just can’t afford to drop half again, and hope to be able to recover again. It’s fine when you’re 19-25 and you both have nothing, and something goes wrong, so you split the debt and call it a day, but when you actually have something substantial to lose, and you’re only about 20 years out from retirement…it gives you pause.

Candidly, I’ve even gotten used to the celibacy. I’d like a relationship, but having been wrung through the legal system a bit, you realize your exposure. If I was just a dude with a car and an apartment, I’d not worry about it, but with a decent home and substantial investments…just can’t even think about hooking up with someone and having to face paternity with someone who had no intention of marriage-just receiving payments…or a sizeable settlement…

Or…let’s say you meet someone, date a few times, she comes to your home and likes what she sees. The date goes “very” well. Until later, when she decided, she really didn’t say “yes.” Then it takes all you have to recompense her “damages” and keep yourself out of prison–amazing how men always seem to lose those “he said,she said” cases.

Bottom line… I love women, love everything about them. I love sex. I want a committed lifelong relationship. At 45, I see that I now have everything I could want, and you can lose it so fast. If I was 25-30 with little to lose and time to do it all again, I’d take the chance, but at my age, when I would really love to share a wonderful life with someone–just not enough time to recover if it goes wrong, and 50% of the time, it does.

The upside would be, I have something that everyone should have. The downside, if it occurs, would be catastrophic. It’s a no brainer. It’s not about boys not growing up. It’s about grown up boys looking long and hard at what they they are about to do, and making the only sane choice.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:46 am 96. loki:

25 and single, but I want to get married and have kids. From my perspective, the difficult part is finding a girl worthy of marriage.

I’m currently in graduate training for a career in medical research. I know that my career will be very demanding and take a great deal of my time. I also know that it will require significant travel and/or moving numerous times. While I don’t want a “subservient” spouse, I need someone who can deal with the stresses of my career. I want a partner who is committed, caring, independent (i.e. not requiring constant attention), and an overall good person.

I have dated dozens of girls, found 2 I considered marrying, and in retrospect know 0 would have been good partners (there are a few I’ve met who were already in committed relationships). For the majority these young women, I like to say they suffered from the “Sex and the City Syndrome”. They didn’t consider the future at all and only lived for the here-and-now. They laughed at the prospect of dating a poor student studying to become a doctor, and readily fell over themselves for bartenders and doormen who could get them into the hottest club (I was a bartender, hence my interactions). Not one considered the fact that in 10 years, the same types of men they were vying for would have new 22 year olds and they’d be cast aside.

It was astonishing they’d pass up building a stable relationship with the gent who would become a good provider in 10 years for the guy who could get them free drinks for the next month. If a guy didn’t have money, he was a bum. If a guy didn’t shower them with gifts, he didn’t care about them. If a guy didn’t tell them how wonderful they were and how much he loved them, he was emotionally immature. It seemed as if they were constantly looking for excuses as to why a guy wasn’t worth their time. None ever looked for a reason why he WAS worth their time.

By the same token, I witnessed the permanent adolescence Hymowitz discusses. Being a stable and upwardly mobile part of society had no value. If I told girls I was planning on going to medical/graduate school, I was met with a disinterested stare. If I told them I tended bar at a popular lounge, their eyes lit up. My peers recognized this as well, and many became a part of that culture. Why bother studying and building a future when you can play videogames and go to the beach all day, then party and have sex with new attractive girls every night?

It’s no surprise that we see so many adults who are immature. The difficult part just comes when these two fractions of society intermingle and both sides are left disappointed and unfulfilled.

I’ve digressed a bit and this has become more a rant against contemporary culture. But the salient point is that it is difficult (for me at least) to find a worthy mate. As the majority of the population takes on such a carefree lifestyle, it gets even harder. Why do so few men marry? Perhaps a better question would be to look at the dynamic of maturity in the male AND female population, and contemplate why any bother to marry.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:50 am 97. Sparky:

My WHEW moment.

I almost got married right out of college. She dumped me. That was in the early 70s.

Ran into the lady about 10 years later. Found out that she had gotten married and gotten divorced. Then she launched into the grand soliliqouy about how wonderful and successful she was, over and over and over. Every sentence started with “I”. There was this harsh, nasty tone in her voice. In all my life, I’d never heard anything like it. I was really stunned. She’d been a very nice, funny, young lady when we went out. Now, she was just horrible. She wasn’t even all that successful. She was a union public school teacher, where you can’t get fired, and raises are automatic.

I guess I got lucky with that one.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:51 am 98. arlo:

The single greatest mistake I’ve made in my 48 years is to have said, “I do.” If there was only some way to go back and change it…

I hope my sons don’t make the same mistake.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:58 am 99. justacitizen:

Kay,

Try not to approach your next story from the angle that men are “angry.”

It’s true that there is some indignation, but that isn’t the crux of why we are not engaging in the marriage game any longer.

The real reason has more to do with the inequality – ironicly, the very thing women in the 1960s claimed they were seeking.

Turns out, women weren’t interested in equality. They were interested in perpetual child support, alimony checks and getting the house in the divorce.

And they got it, primarily because the government finds it expensive to alter these incentives.

At some point … men wised up. They hear from their brothers what happens when you end up in divorce court.

We watch football, but we also gather in garages with beer and talk to each other about what you did to us.

Raw Deal = No Deal

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:58 am 100. Michael J. Totten:

I got married at 31 because when I was 21 I swore that I would not get married before 30.

The reason I did that is because I was engaged to be married at 20 and that relationship fell apart because we were both, basically, children who didn’t know what we were doing. I thought I should finish growing up first and find a woman who likewise had finished growing up first. That’s what I did, and my marriage is terrific.

If I had actually married my fiance at 20, I would be divorced. But I don’t ever expect to be divorced.

If everyone married at 30, I can almost guarantee you divorce rates would be lower. I had a much better idea which kind of woman I should marry and which kind I should avoid at 30 than I did at 20.

Feb 7, 2008 - 9:59 am 101. loki:

Coaster said:
The reason I’ve become comfortable with the idea of remaining single is, quite simpply, I don’t have enough lifespan left to re-make my life, should that happen again. I just can’t afford to drop half again, and hope to be able to recover again. It’s fine when you’re 19-25 and you both have nothing, and something goes wrong, so you split the debt and call it a day, but when you actually have something substantial to lose, and you’re only about 20 years out from retirement…it gives you pause.

That is another thing that has occurred to me as to why it is so important to find the right partner first time around. I know my career will have me pretty busy. Even discounting the financial loss of a divorce, I know my life outside work would dissolve. I don’t know how I could rebuild my life after investing so much of it in a spouse. I couldn’t even fathom meeting new people — who would have the time or confidence? All the while, attempting to rebuild your life with the milestone of alimony around your neck.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:01 am 102. Matt S.:

Dr. Helen,
Some of these comments remind me of some issues I saw overseas in Singapore years ago. In Singapore after high school all males have to enter military service for two years. At the same time most women of the same age, continue their education. The State encountered a problem. There was a growing trend among the college age kids of not tying the knot. It was explained to me that the educational disparity of the women and the soldiers was leading to a lack of social interaction. The state response was to have state held social events to try and get people that grew apart back together. I have to wonder given some of the discussion, if there was more to it then the educational disparity. I think the latest statistics among college age men indicates a growing decrease in enrollment statistics in the US also.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:07 am 103. The Chief:

Used to be men would jump through the hoop of the 40 hour a week, 20+ year boring job, the boring house, the boring wife and the tiresome kids with few complaints. We cleared these hoops because while the job was boring it did at least provide the necessities of life, while the house was boring at least it was consistent shelter against the elements, while the wife was boring at least she was companionship and occasional (if, as time went on and familiarity bred contempt, rarely spectacular) sex, and while the kids were exasperating and tiresome they were YOUR KIDS for Chrissake, and you loved them and wanted to care for them every day.

Look at that paragraph carefully. The short answer is that we did all this much-vaunted “Growing Up” because there was something in it for us. We were responding to incentives.

Nowadays? Stick your neck into the marriage trap and chances are you’ll lose much of what you work for in a divorce. The house will probably go to her. A fair amount of your weekly paycheck as well. Oh, and while you’ll still be sending her a chunk of your salary, she will no longer be required to provide whatever she brought to the table in the marriage, be it sex, housework, the economy of scale of her own paycheck, whatever. You might see the kids every other weekend if you’re very lucky and she doesn’t interfere with your visitation or move halfway across the country with a new guy. Most of the 20something SYMs Ms. Hymowitz wrings her hands over came from a broken home. They saw what their fathers went through. Is it any wonder they’d rather have the one room apartment, a hi-speed internet connection to “World of Warcraft” and freedom?

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:14 am 104. Richard:

I am a married father of 4 who works 2 full time jobs to support my wife and children. I would kill myself on a daily basis to do anything and everything to give my family everything they needed, to the detriment of my own personal and mental health. My wife decided that the way to thank me would be to feed her insatiable Starbucks and Yankee Candle habits while ignoring me for the few minutes a day I’m actually home. We’ve been together for 21 years. I don’t go out with friends, I don’t sleep around, I don’t get abusive, and I’m not a drunk. Several of her own friends bought me a Superman t shirt given what they know about me and my dedication to my family.
I’m not saying I’m perfect by any stretch, but, you could do alot worse. If I ever manage to get out…I wouldn’t marry again for all the money in the world. Modern women seem to think that men are here to serve them, with no reciprocation. We seem to have very little incentive to do anything but look after ourselves these days. Dennis Miller said it best.”I’m a white heterosexual male, I’m everybody’s a$$hole.”

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:15 am 105. Dave:

Dan puts it well: “The sexual pact at the core of marriage has always included two promises: exclusivity and abundance.” It’s a lot better than a Jerry Springer-guest saying, “A man not being taken care of at home will find someone who will.”

I think that unsatisfying sex, whether it be not enough in general or not enough of certain types of sex, is a major issue ignored in the whole “relationship” debate.

My ex-wife put on 40 pounds, and I didn’t find her sexually attractive. My ex-wife decided that she didn’t like having a certain type of sex after we were married. How convenient. I might have put up with all the other crap if the sex was good.

It’s somehow become normal for married men to expect less sex after getting married. It’s not normal. A man is programmed to have a lot of sex with as many women as possible. For a man to commit to a monogamous relationship, he gets a lot of sex with one woman. That’s the deal. No negotiation. No re-negotiation.

Whenever a guy at work or play bitches to me about not getting sex (or a type of sex) from his wife or girlfriend, I tell them straight up, “Leave!” He won’t be happy. And she won’t be happy when he starts ignoring her because he’s not getting sex.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:19 am 106. the ghost:

There have always been, and likely always will be, men who disdain marriage and think it for suckers solely on principle. But these bad boys, lone dogs, or whatever you want to call them are not a bigger chunk of the population than they’ve always been.

Most men are open to the idea of marriage with a suitable mate. What’s changed is that pool of suitable mates. As the firestarter Moynihan Institute once noted at length, American women have priced themselves out of the market. Why should you sign a social contract with someone who has no desire or intention of keeping up her end and who can find all the rationalizations, positive reinforcement, and legal help she needs when she changes her mind?

When marriage was an institution with no real drawback (for either side actually, given women’s options), it was all well and good to rush to find a mate, to marry someone you weren’t completely, 100% positive about in your heart of hearts. Nowadays that would be incredibly foolish, when said person is probably willing to leave with your bank account if she isn’t being “realized” or if she thinks Oprah would agree with the issues she has with you.

The City Journal is absolutely right in their (her) premise that marriage makes men, not vice versa. But, inexplicably, they then conclude that Halo and porn are keeping young men from getting married. Hello? There’s a reason why “virgin” is still an embarrassing personal admission while “never played Halo” is not. I’m pretty sure we would drop Madden as fast as we used to drop comics, pubs, cars, fraternities, poker, dice, pamphleteering, and musket-trimming, if the right woman game along. What’s changed are those women.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:19 am 107. Macon Stoneburner:

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:21 am 108. Tom:

I am continuously amazed at the hostility and aggression women demonstrate towards men on a daily basis. I observe this on the roads, in offices and other places. I have always assumed that unlike their male counterparts, they never had their asses kicked on the school playground when they were kids. Most men intrinsicly know where the line is and they will not cavalierly cross it. Women on the other hand often don’t realize they have entered the lions den until it is too late. I have had women berate me in my health club only to realize that there is no restraint on my response since we don’t exchange bodily fluids and we don’t share an employer. I have been married for 21 wonderful years. In our relationship neither of us wears the pants, we both wear shorts. Also, sticks and stones may break my bones but words leave permanent an lasting damage.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:27 am 109. VRWC:

Several times in the course of this thread I’ve seen mention of the fact that 50% of all marriages fail. This bit of common knowledge is almost universally believed, but it is simply not true.

The US Census measures marriage in ten year cohorts according to when you were born. If you look at the actual census numbers, across the entire population on average, about 30% of marriages have failed. This number rose greatly due to the behavior of the two “baby boom” cohorts, but has been declining as the Gen X and even the Gen Y cohorts (so far) have come of age.

No cohort, not even the boomers, has ever had a divorce rate higher than the mid 30% range, with a prediction that the second boomer cohort will eventually reach 41% over their lifetimes. At one time, the Census did PREDICT a 50% divorce rate for boomers, but they have backed off that to the 41% level.

The 50% myth also comes from comparing the number of divorces versus marriages in a given year, which tells you little about how people do over a lifetime. The peak for divorces was the late 1970’s, when boomers entered the deadly 7 to 15 years of marriage period and divorces, for a time, averaged 50% the number of marriages in those years.

Even if the failure rate of marriage is lower than commonly believed, I still think women have foolishly made marriage a horrible deal for men in all sorts of ways, not least giving away the best incentive for marriage, easy access to sex, for free.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:29 am 110. Coaster:

loki said:

“Even discounting the financial loss of a divorce, I know my life outside work would dissolve. I don’t know how I could rebuild my life after investing so much of it in a spouse. I couldn’t even fathom meeting new people — who would have the time or confidence?”

I agree loki. A man’s world tends to get smaller after marriage. The woman will usually bring along her own society to a relationship and there is just not enough room for both, so we tend to take our places in her world and it becomes our world.

When the split occurs, she has just lost one member of her society. Plenty of others to console and support, etc., even help her plan the thing. The man, however has lost almost his entire world–other then a few colleagues from work who will lend a sympathetic ear, but who’d really rather just keep it light.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:35 am 111. Cham:

Those pesky women simply won’t behave right to make men happy.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:51 am 112. DeMark:

A massive problem is that child support is paid in a lump sum to the mother, rather than being spent directly on the kids. It is therefore spousal support, in that the women can and do spend substantial sums on everything but the kids. This problem is especially acute for high income men. I make a nice living. My child support payments would be a in a range of $5-6k per month, if I were to get divorced. I would like to get divorced. And frankly, even at 5 grand a month, I could afford it. But I am not handing that woman a check every month and leaving all the spending and child raising decisions to her. I am not giving her carte blanche over 40% of my take home pay, when that money vastly exceeds what is really needed to raise the kids.

A solution would be that I pay for whatever the kids need directly, without writing the check to her. That would be simple. But it seems the courts will not insist on such arrangements if the mother objects, and, of course, the mothers object. They want the lump sum to finance their lifestyles. This cries out for a simple but effective reform.

The end result is that I am trapped in an awful marriage. We don’t yell and scream, mostly because I avoid her whenever possible. But what are my options? Get divorced and be forced on threat of jail to give her total control over a lot of money and the kids, or stick around and maintain some control over those situations? The latter, while highly imperfect, is better, not just for me but for our kids.

The end result is that I now know I was a sucker to ever get married. I unwittingly bore all of the risk of a failed marriage. She came in knowing that she could do anything she wanted — gain weight, put her degrees to no use whatsoever, contribute nothing to the household work, etc — and still walk away with almost half my money.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:55 am 113. Paul:

It not just television ads, but virtually all media and marketing. Next time you watch a couple being interviewed by the news-media, note who does all the talking. Or after viewing or listening to an ad, do a mind exercise of “turn the tables” by swapping roles between genders or races. You might be surprised at how biased or bigoted the skit now seems.

—————————-

Notice how the husband always needs the wife’s permission to do anything while the wife gets to do what she pleases, when she pleases, how she pleases without consulting anyone.

I would like to marry but the thoughts of losing my home, my income, etc., puts me off of the idea.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:55 am 114. BR:

I think a guy named Dave said it best:

“Soon after I got married, my ex-wife packed on 40 pounds, decided sex wasn’t that important anymore, and determined that I didn’t make enough money for the lifestyle she wanted.”

The problem isn’t necessarily that there is no incentive for a man to marry, it is that there is no incentive for a woman to stay married.

Feb 7, 2008 - 10:58 am 115. dan:

31 years old, never married, would love to, would love children. But I second the emotion concerning the availability of appropriate mates. I also agree with the perpetual adolescence theme generally, but that’s hardly limited to men, or men of this generation. How many actual human beings do you know, exactly, Ms. H?

The fact is, the previous generation, my dear incompetent parents included, were the pioneers of the perpetual adolescent – and yet, such cultural norms as previously existed decay only slowly, unequally, and leave behind their traces, not least because those norms reflected deep, enduring human needs from which no fashion can permanently distract us.

Women may have their complaints, but the primary problem men have, beyond the legal system, is the behavior of women.

Women shop; they party; they come to new relationships having had abortions (which, it goes without saying, is not supposed to put us off); they indulge in idiot magazines and regale you with astrological predictions, relationship quizzes, diet fads; they are in perpetual motion, and regard any apparent immobility of their mates as laziness, to which their mental whip must be relentlessly applied; they conspire with their friends; they carry on infatuations with their cell phones; they enforce some odd antagonistic Kafkaesque intergender legal code; they try to prey on the alpha males their propositions suggest they despise, and they prey on the more sensitive men who are already disposed to treat them like princesses. Outside the initial flirtation and conquest, they seem at least as likely to regard their mate as an impediment to their sexual happiness as the symbolic male oppressor ever did. They employ all manner of idiot explanations like “but my father was so indifferent to me,” even if you know their father was just some insurance company middle manager whose cruelties consisted of not providing her with all her ridiculous requests.

Biologically speaking, women and their words are a flock of birds, or a wheeling herd of wildebeasts; we are children. But the resort to Darwinian explanations is disingenuous if it is not also presumed that nature made us plenty compatible in proportion to our need to be together and procreate. Forgive me for assuming there never was a time in which, except for certain unsuccessful and shortlived societies, a culture in which men and women were not presumed to spend entire lifetimes together.

But the revolution of the 1960s and 1970s, whose fruit we are, attempted to insert a historical period (.), and apparently it’s largely succeeded, since its students and participants were themselves ignorant 18 year olds at the time. But the real tearing-down applied only to women – that is to say, men did not successfully tear down their own expectations as to the romantic trajectory of their lives. So, women are free to exaggerate out of all proportion with almost any aspect of reality the expectations they have of men. They have even less inner discipline than men, because men at least have all these busy, bitc*y, silly women to constantly remind us of our inadequacies and duties. Everything about the popular culture flatters women; nothing of their proclivities, from extraordinarily expensive and useless baubles to ice hockey, is denied them. There are no limits. And so it should be no surprise that they act as much as possible as though this were so.

But of course it is not so. And there is, we are told, a biological drive to create babies – “their” babies, I might add. The longer I live the more I think that hallowed female solicitude for their children is really just the fulfillment of their surfeit of ego: that is, the children are a part of them, are them.

And while we’re on this tack, let’s observe a fact that all internet pornography demonstrates beyond doubt: women are born to breed as soon as they manifest sexual features. Who has not walked through an American mall in the past 10 years and been surrounded by little budding strippers?

And so these ripe little egotists, in their culture of self-regard and self-celebration, where men are virtually blotted out except as foils for their intelligence and occasionally fulfillment of their animal fantasies – and so they go about, enjoying their sexual power, delaying the day when they should invest the ego that has been given them in children…

And guess what happens to them? That ego, rebuked in a thousand different ways, eventually sours. The girls get bitter – Sex & the City is about UNHAPPY WOMEN for f*ck’s sake! They remain ignorant of men – more than we are of them. And so, we grow estranged, and atomized. The law establishes an incentive for midde aged women to flee into the fantasy of fulfilled adulthood, financed by the former spouse, guarded by attack-dog lawyers – to do what? Grow more bitter in bars and among their friends, and to poison the minds of the younger women.

Anyway it’s f*cked up, but the problem is not that we like video games and hot naked chicks in lad magazines. And besides the problem is way less bad outside cities like New York. But unfortunately Hymowitz reflects the womanly blindspot that everyone here knows all too well. What – do you think we don’t want to get married and have kids too? Of course we do! We just don’t prattle on and on about it like a bunch of drunken sailors all the time. Damn.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:05 am 116. Coaster:

After thinking about all this today, and reading all the comments and similar bad experiences, I thought I had come up with a solution for myself.

I want a marriage relationship. To feel that it is safe to consider such a thing, I’d need to find a woman so similarly equipped as I, that she would be insisting on a pre-nup…for her own protection.

Since such a woman would have no use for me whatsoever, this scenario will remain ever hypothetical.

Oh well…

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:17 am 117. Helen Smith:

DeMark,

I can’t help but throw my 2 cents in here. I have seen a number of men take the approach you have–they are psychologically and physically damaged by the time it’s over. Many have heart or stress-related damage. If your marriage is as bad as you say it is, no amount of money would be worth putting yourself through that. Can’t you spend the money on a good lawyer instead?

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:19 am 118. Jason:

I have been married for 15 years and love my wife and kids (2 with a 3rd due in a matter of weeks). Wouldn’t trade any of them for the world – well, maybe the teenager!

However, I cannot imagine myself getting re-married should something happen to split my family up.

Like comments already state above, socially I have no life. Family occupies 99% of my time not at work. Professionally, I’m judged at a disadvantage to my coworkers that do not have a family. Therefore, they can spend 60+ hours working on a regular basis to get that pat on the back. When I spend that much time at work, it doesn’t take long for family problems to begin. Financially, it gets difficult to keep striving for your future financial goals when other’s have their hand in the cookie jar.

If I had to do it all over again I still would, if it was the same person. So I don’t regret getting married. However, I don’t see myself giving away my freedom and my “self” to anyone else. When the game’s no longer fun, my single friends and coworkers can take their toys and go home.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:21 am 119. Paul:

There are no limits. And so it should be no surprise that they act as much as possible as though this were so.
———————–

Heaven help the man who has to marry/work for the self-proclaimed “strong woman,” which is just another word for “shrew.”

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:23 am 120. freetoken:

That Dr. Helen has managed to generate at least 109 comments on PJMedia in a few hours with her article is telling. This obviously is a topic which needs more exploration.

From my own life experience I surmise that the reasons for the male to not get married are varied, and sometimes intertwined and perhaps impossible to de-correlate. That Ms. Hymowitz believes she can attribute the reason for non-marriage to perpetual adolescence is too simple.

Also, it is sort of assumed by many people that non-marriage is somehow a bad thing for society. However, given modern civilization’s inventions and use of energy (freeing us from human physical labor), and the rise of nations built upon law (and not the rule of the jungle), is marriage necessary anymore (in the sense that evolutionary psychology sometimes speak?) Perhaps Dr. Helen could address this too.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:26 am 121. William Kovacs:

Dr. Helen:
I have always had the suspicion that all of civilization is a feminist plot to get men to accept a woman’s idea of being a grown-up. Sitting around the longhouse with the guys, drinking palm liquor and bragging about whose spear killed the elephant is just about as good as it gets for a man.
The sexual revolution plus the lack of much social pressure on men to get married have changed the basic economics of marriage. There are no ways to put those genies back in the box. Women can however do a lot with minor behavior changes to increase the value of marriage. Men are not women and will not be motivated by scolding enumerating their many failures. Go back to your grandmother’s advise: Hot sex, a cold beer, some time with the guys and an occasional mention of what a hero he is for battling in the business world would go a long way towards making marriage more palatable. Keeping a guy happy is actually easier and less time consuming than keeping a girlfriend happy if you use the right carrots and sticks. Also, lose the chip on your shoulder. Pick a guy that matches your feminist requirements but drop the rhetoric. Men are hyper sensitive on the issue and we’ve heard it all over the last 30 years.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:32 am 122. SGT Ted:

“Lol- it sounds to me like you boys are getting pretty defensive over being called immature. Why can’t you all just accept your fate as the inferior gender? Stop debating the obvious and go do something useful with your testosterone saturated manliness.”

And there she is, on cue: the feminista bigot poster-girl for why men don’t marry.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:37 am 123. George:

I’m 43 and have never been married. I’m interested in marriage but 1) I will not assume someone else’s debt and poor financial decisions and 2) I want someone who is at least the same physical condition. Credit card debt and excess weight suggest a bad trend that only gets worse with marriage. Unfortunately many otherwise good women exclude themselves from the marriage pool by bad decisions.

In patriarchal societies there is strong pressure on men to make male children to keep inherited wealth within the family. Never felt a need to make offspring and I don’t feel a strong connection to my dad’s farm or home town. Couldn’t leave fast enough and never plan to move back.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:53 am 124. PDN:

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the idea of the man and the woman becoming one in marriage. It seems everyone is talking about what they ‘get’ out of the marriage. My three sisters and I had no trouble finding good men — and we are opinionated, loving, caring, sometimes acerbic, nurturing, sharp when exhausted (i.e. when raising little kids), apologetic when we go to far, self-centered sometimes – selfless at others, medium attractive women. My niece just got engaged to a good man (she’s 25, he’s a bit younger) and he has traveled with our whole family so we could get to know him (remember, he is my niece’s fiance — he did not need to spend 10 days with aunts/uncles/cousins/grandmas/grandpas — but he did and we love him). In every case, the son-in-laws have become pivitol members of our family — and we daughter-in-laws (except for one case where the husband’s mother can not let go) are members of our husbands families. We are not a homogenous group. My husband is from Wisconsin, another husband is from Japan, another husband is from California, and the fourth husband is from Maryland. We have not all gotten along perfectly throughout the years — but we are one family so we love each other regardless. It seems to me that the problem with marriage as outlined in this blog is most people don’t think they are becoming one family through their marriage — warts and all.

Why?

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:55 am 125. tz:

I know many mature, responsible, iintelligent men and consider myself one (over 40 so…). Never married. They learn from the mistakes of those who did.

It used to be divorce was rare. Now is is not so much no-fault as man’s-fault. Leave with the kids, property, and income on any whim.

No-fault should be leave with nothing, or with a strong prejudice against the first filer.

Men and women change, but the system is tilted.

Feb 7, 2008 - 11:57 am 126. JHoward:

A man is programmed to have a lot of sex with as many women as possible.

What utter, self-defeating rubbish. It’s this rote, regurgitated, mythological, animalistic crap that stated enough times simply perpetuates the problem an equally animalistic “feminism” just “solved.” Thanks but no thanks.

—-

VRWC, we need to be more precise with our words when defining divorce statistics. 50% of all marriage indeed does not end in divorce. But ~50% of all marriages entered into today will. A very big difference, and one that further points up the massive problem with contemporary relationships and the pall the State throws over them.

—-

Lastly, IMO, the single greatest social problem perpetuated by central government policy facing this country is the State’s cultivation of the billion dollar divorce industry. We need to understand that “welfare reform”, which was the very wrong-headed Republican federal enactment under Clinton that paid moms to leave dads, was and remains the most unconstitutional act Americans live under daily in their own homes today.

Unconstitutional because it removes due process, presumes guilt, violates property rights, legally kidnaps children, illegally imprisons without trial, and has no jury-reviewed justice in it whatsoever.

That ostensible conservatives believe this divorce and custody industry is welfare reform is utter folly. This little totalitarian regime is madness even communism rejected. I do not overstate the problem.

The divorce industry is what amount to secret courts operated under the direct oversight of leftist, Marxist-leaning special interests installed deeply and widely in the legal establishment and gender feminist lobby. I’ve seen “conservatives” get all up at arms about inner city welfare babies and then demand that government extract payment under penalty of incarceration from drive-by dads.

The problem, as with all Orwellian social government, is the unintended consequence. That unintended consequence is evident in the scores of personal stories that get cathartically related in threads like this one. Given the vast redistribution of wealth, what was once unintended is now very much intentional.

The solution? This thread, again, proves it’s to stay single.

Why do so-called men’s rights threads by Dr. Helen get exponentially more reader comments than others at PM? Because we’re seeing the street-level results of cancerous totalitarian central family-planning policy, something the USSR itself actually abandoned decades ago, and something every right-thinking “conservative” should therefore be on the phone daily to their statehouse about.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:06 pm 127. Mark BUehner:

_”I knew some men were angry, but I didn’t understand the depth and extent of their rage. I don’t think many people do.”_

Kay Hymowitz, if you happen to read this comment- PLEASE dont turn this into ‘the irrational rage of men’ as being the answer to your question. There is anger in these posts, but please consider that it may be well justified anger at a societal injustice. Whether you agree with the premise or not, surely you can acknowledge that that type of emotion isnt simply ‘rage’.

Look a little deeper. Marriage is indeed legally rigged against men, and that hurts. And society does indeed portray men just as your first article did, as overgrown children at best, and as predators waiting to strike at worst. There is nothing wrong with being angry at that kind of injustice and biggotry.

Does watching American Gladiator between games of Medal of Honor reveal any deeper truths about men than watching Desperate Housewives does for women? Is there some deepseated trend in the modern woman to sleep around the neighbordhood?

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:08 pm 128. W:

A few thoughts from a former YSM, now a fifty yo man, never married, probably never will.

I have half-sisters who perfectly fit the description of angry women who use Police and Family courts to punish their ex-husbands, ex-boyfriends, landlords, etc. I have an ex-Brothers-in-Law who was forced to pay support for a child that is obviously not his, a literal red-headed stepchild that cost him $600 a month for seventeen years. That’s $122,400. It sure helped his ex-wife to support her red-headed boyfriend.

Marriage today is high risk and low reward. It’s a high risk investment when you stand to lose a lot more than you can gain. And most of the gains: companionship, friendship, sex; they’re readily available without marriage. Marriage today is like gambling when you know the game is rigged against you.

A lot of women live for today and give no thought for the future until it’s too late. Think of Aesop’s story of the Ants and Grasshopper. ”Girls just wanna have fun.” Women love the Bad Boys and despise Nice Guys. Bad Boys are exciting and fun. Bad Boys are a challenge. But when the women get pregnant or lose their looks they want a Nice Guy to support them. Speaking as a former Nice Guy, why should I spend the next twenty years raising the Bad Boy’s children? That’s an enormous cost just for companionship or sex. A lot of the women out there are single parents desperately looking for a man to support them. And pay off their credit cards!

And despite all that, I might marry if there was some reliable way to tell the difference between a woman who loves me for myself versus the woman who wants to marry, not me, but my house and salary and future income. But there is no such thing, that’s why marriage is a huge gamble.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:13 pm 129. IWood:

I’ve read through this thread, and there are a lot of horror stories here. And a lot of bitter people.

But, honestly? Men: stop marrying assholes.

If you can’t spot one…well, that’s not the fault of feminism, or a biased court system, or prime time television.

It’s a failure of perception, on your part.

I was with the same woman for eight years, and we bought a house together, and we didn’t get married. Why? Because, although we loved each other, at some level we both knew we probably didn’t want to spend the rest of our lives together. While we were together, we split every bill down the middle, and when we broke up and sold the house, we split the profits down the middle.

We still talk often. She’s one of my best friends.

Why?

Because she’s not an asshole.

I honestly don’t get people who enter into a supposedly lifelong arrangement with someone and then “discover” that the person is a miserable fraud or a vicious, emasculating bitch. *Every* time I’ve been hurt by a woman it’s because I *chose* to ignore the red flags.

People are complicated. They change. But, absent major head trauma, they generally don’t do it overnight. That bitch you married was a bitch when you married her. You just failed to notice it.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:15 pm 130. zed:

VRWC -

In fact, you are wrong about the percentages. No less an authority than the US Census Bureau has recently published figures that for those married between 1975 and 1979, 49.5% of men and 46.4% of women made it to their silver anniversary.

Some portion of that is due to mortality and the death of a spouse. But, many of those marriages would have happened when people were in their late teens or early 20s, which means most marriages did not even last until the 50th birthday.

Given the rise in what is now termed “Gray divorce”, with older couples divorcing at a rate higher than they ever have before, that minority of intact marriages still have many years left for those marriages to fail.

Adding just 5 years brings the number of intact marriages after 30 years down to 46.2% for men and 42.1% of women, with as much as 10-15 years left to go until retirement. To eliminate the mortality factor, the cooresponding figures for people who married 1955-1959, 20 short years earlier when the average lifespan was shorter than today, the figures were 67.3% and 63.5%.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:17 pm 131. Scott:

I refer everyone to the wonderful book by George Gilder “Men and Marriage.” Social changes since the 1960s are dividing men into the relationship haves and have-nots. Boys growing up in mother- headed households and society feeding a constant diet of “what’s wrong with men” or defining normal behavior of boys as a disease that must be cured can leave a vast number of boys/men giving up on normal marriage.

I think these factors have exaggerated my normal shyness into a pattern of getting more and more comfortable being more and more alone. I can function well enough in social contexts but I have little desire to “put myself out there.” Now that I have a steady job, after growing up in divorce-related poverty and chaos, pets, and a house I have much dread about not making a perfect choice in a mate and having my life ruined and my house taken away or forced to pay someone else to live in my house.

I doubt I will marry and it’s not a very big deal to me except if I think about it at the wrong time or for long periods.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:28 pm 132. Hucbald:

I’m fifty and have been a born again bachelor for over ten years after six-hundred… I mean six years of a miserable marriage: No kids.

I’m serious about what I do – I’ve managed both bachelor and masters degrees – and more than just fairly disciplined in my pursuit of it, so I don’t consider myself a perpetual adolescent (Though every day seems like Christmas now, after how unhappy I was being married).

I tried to fall off the wagon exactly twice since my divorce, and was again in a pit of despair, so I gave up on relationships entirely. I don’t even date anymore.

I’m not on any kind of marriage strike, per se, I just happen to have come to the logical conclusion that relationships are more trouble than they are worth: I’m happier – MUCH happier – without a woman in my life.

I like women – love them in fact – but I make it clear to them that I’m not interested in romance anymore, but that platonic relationships are just fine. Interestingly, this gets rid of them ALL.

I don’t define my level of satisfaction and/or fulfillment in life by whether I’m in a relationship or not: I define those things by how many of my goals I’m reaching.

I’m not sure what the “problem” is – or even if there is one – and, seriously, I don’t understand why a lot more people of both sexes don’t chose to live this way… and be happy about it.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:37 pm 133. Mike G in Corvallis:

Then it takes all you have to recompense her “damages” and keep yourself out of prison–amazing how men always seem to lose those “he said,she said” cases.

My friend Tom married a beautiful-but-spoiled Princess — runner-up for Miss California, in fact. Four years later he caught her cheating (which she had been doing even before they were married). To get the house, all their money, and custody of their two-year-old daughter, she used nuclear weapons: she accused him of child molestation. She got everything. Since there was no evidence, he never went to trial — but he lost his standing in the community and nearly lost his job.

This made his life a living hell for the next several years … until she did something extremely stupid, he got the divorce proceedings reopened, and she admitted in court, under oath, that she had made everything up. This took care of some of his problems, but his ex had pretty much screwed up their daughter’s head by that point. And she still kept the house and other assets, of course.

Here’s the kicker: What do you think the consequences to her were for her admitted perjury? … Hah! Not a damn thing.

Gosh, why do men complain that the system is stacked against them?

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:40 pm 134. Ian:

Men don’t marry because men are the more rational sex. Men are getting all the benefits of a marriage in a relationship, none of the burdens (notice I didn’t say “responsibilities”). Marriage becomes either the surrender of a hooked man to a nagging woman, or an act of martyrdom for children.

They say “it’s the economy, stupid” about politics. Well, about marriage: “it’s the sex, stupid”. I’m a Christian who doesn’t fornicate, and, (shockingly?) I look at a prospective woman as nothing other than a wife or a mother. At the same time, I see women who fornicate as unwifely and unmotherly. Men, at least on a subliminal level, must see the same. Who’s more wifely, a nineteen-year-old virgin, or a 30-year-old Sex and the City character?

Don’t lie to yourselves. “Wife” and “mother” are inherently old-fashioned, and the new-fashioned woman is a lower quality wife. Men know it, women know it. Big picture, men are paying much more for marriage now, and getting much less.

To sum up, like most of the men who are reading this, I do not want to marry most of the women who are reading this. The difference is that I do not want to fornicate with them temporarily either, so I will not at any time have to awkwardly detach myself from that arrangement.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:54 pm 135. JHoward:

That bitch you married was a bitch when you married her. You just failed to notice it.

That’s a lovely echo-chamber. I’ll look for the State to abolish its divorce industry racket by morning.

In other words, were that true, there’d be no cause for self-made ****’s to game the system, wouldn’t there?

A much fuller perspective regards the symbiotic relationship between behavior and opportunity. In the case of the divorce industry, opportunity prompts behavior. Proof? That they protect their gold-laying goose to the virtual death. ****’s become educated to their exclusive opportunities, and then they simply decide to become ****’s. You would too.

Again, were your fantasy true, the system wouldn’t exist because it wouldn’t need to. But it does.

Feb 7, 2008 - 12:58 pm 136. John:

At some point are not women to blame for the perpetual adolescents.? It is a supply and demand market. Young men tend to do what gets them the attention of young women. Tucker Max would be such insufferable jackass if it didn’t get him laid. Someone is sleeping with him. If no women wanted men like him, there wouldn’t be men like him.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:01 pm 137. zed:

“I knew some men were angry, but I didn’t understand the depth and extent of their rage. I don’t think many people do.”

Kay Hymowitz, if you happen to read this comment- PLEASE dont turn this into ‘the irrational rage of men’ as being the answer to your question.

It’s extremely likely that is exactly what she will do. For the past 40 years women have talked down to us, about us, over us, and around us – but the one thing they have absolutely refused to do is talk to us or, god forbid, listen to us. That would violate the narrative “women perfect, men horrible.”

There is anger in these posts, but please consider that it may be well justified anger at a societal injustice. Whether you agree with the premise or not, surely you can acknowledge that that type of emotion isnt simply ‘rage’.

Highly unlikely that she will, any more than the resident feminist troll can respond to the dozens of men here all saying essentially the same thing with any response other than to regurgitate feminist cliches. In one sentence she managed to give the men here keeping score what is called a “house” in the game of fem-bot bingo.

Back in the 1950s, Ford Motor Corp brought out a line of cars called the “Edsel.” People didn’t want them, and they didn’t buy them. If FMC had followed the pattern of women today, they would have spent their entire advertising budget screaming at the non-buyers, insulting them, calling them names, and generally trying to berate them into buying a produce no one wanted.

Men today are voting with their feet. Sick of women who take the attitude expressed in one guy’s sig – “I am proud to be a super-bitch, but if you don’t find me attractive, you’re a weak, insecure loser who’s threatened by strong women.” – they are simply turning their backs and going their own way. Four decades of feminism have destroyed one of the most fundamental instincts of humanity – the desire to find a mate.

The real question for women is whether they dislike being alone enough to give up their complete contempt for, animosity toward, and exploitation of men. I tend to doubt it and expect that in 20-30 more years the marriage rate will be down to about 30% as it is in the African-American community.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:03 pm 138. A different Larry:

A number of commenters have stated that feminists have planted bitter seeds and will reap a bitter harvest. Actually, no. They’re getting exactly what the feminist movement was after all of this time: nihilism.

The irony, of course, is that the Islamic civilization that will replace the civilizations of the west and far east will not be so tolerant of uppity women. That’s the real bitter harvest awaiting the feminists.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:06 pm 139. Mike:

The below is the response to the article you mentioned by Kay S. Hymowitz. This was sent to the City Journal.

Everyone- read her article first and you’ll see where I was coming from

————————————-
I honestly cannot believe you’re employed as a professional journalist. I would love to read your article aloud in front of an audience of empowered young women so I could bask in the boos and jeers. “The punchline,” I would wryly state as I dodged rotten vegetables, “Is that this article was written by a woman, Kay S. Hymowitz.” I’m sure the crowd would love it.

On this note, lets begin with your degradation of women… it doesn’t take too long to get to that if we just skip the first few sentences of your degradation of men. Ah, here we are, we’ve arrived at the sentence: “[Women are]particularly interested in single young men, for two reasons: there are a lot more of them than before; and they tend to have some extra change.”

They tend to have some extra change? You’ve just claimed that one of the two reasons women like single men is that women are prostitutes. Cheap ones at that. Further comment is unnecessary here, your words speak for themselves.

Next, overlooking bland vocab choices and clumsily cobbled sentences, we come to your analysis of one of the most monumental events in human history: the rise of Maxim magazine. The only thing dumber than the magazine itself, is you for giving its success weight in a broader historical sense. The only thing dumber than you is your boss for paying you to write this drivel.

Since you put so much weight behind this “Maxim child man”, and draw logical(this word is used tongue in cheek here. I figured you’d need this fact pointed out, considering how poor your grasp of literature seems) conclusions, I’ll do the same with you.

We’ll call the class of women who would enjoy your writing “Kay S. Hymowitzs” or KSH for short. Single and aging, the only thing drier than these women are the articles they read in City Journal. KSH’s like to read columns filled with broad generalizations derived from trivial pieces of information, otherwise known as fluff or filler. KSH’s prefer the tone of an out of touch, elderly curmudgeon who’s got a bone to pick with that which she can not have: young men.

KSH’s enjoy logical fallacies. For example, the use of a straw man argument despite the fact that doing so makes the author’s motivation painfully obvious. It has been said that “Everything we say, we say to ourselves.” Here, had this piece been written in the Onion, I would add Shakespeare’s take on the previous quote, “Many a truth is told in jest”, however, unfortunately for the literary world and journalists everywhere, you’re not joking.

No, you take yourself seriously. Even more shocking is that your employers take you seriously. Seriously enough to pay you to put forth the pedestrian tripe that you call journalism. It is a sad state that the City Journal has come to, the Journal, bastion of wit and concept.

To all the KSH’s out there, I suggest you put down the magazine and pick up a book.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:13 pm 140. Bill T:

I found the Hymowitz piece more silly than insulting.

She should spend some time talking to a few of my divorced workmates. Their tales of heartbreak and woe might give her a bit more perspective. These cautionary tales and my own observations of the character of the post-modern American woman have convinced me that marriage is a poor life choice. The risks and cost simply outweigh the benefits. Living a life of “responsible self-reliance” is a hell of a lot more satisfying and sustainable.

My life, money and future are my own. I have no desire to have kids. It is not difficult to find a girlfriend/sex partner when I want one. I have my buddies for companionship. Why should I get married? Kay Hymowitz can call me all the names she likes but no amount of pseudo-intellectual musings or insults will change the basic calculus. For men, marriage is just a bad deal all around.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:23 pm 141. Dave M.:

I’m 35, and all my friends who are married and “all grown up” are in the kind of hell I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

While I get to go to Vegas for a weekend when I feel like it, they feel guilty if they buy a $4 beer because that’s wasteful spending and could be spent on important things like new drapes. It seems that “growing up” is feminista talk for “quit having fun”.

What’s especially funny is that none of them ask me any more “so when are you going to get married?”

I think they’ve figured out that’s not as smart a goal as they once thought…

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:23 pm 142. Clay Dowling:

I’m 37 and married. I waited until I was 32 to get married, not because I particularly didn’t want to give up my freedom, but because it took that long to find somebody that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. Maybe I’m missing something, but I thought that was what marriage was supposed to be about.

Prolonged adolescence is very different than not being married. At the time I got married I already had a career, a house in a good neighborhood, a cat, a reliable car near to being paid off, investments and attended church regularly.

What more should I be doing to be “grown up”? In a lot of respects marriage didn’t improve my position, since with more mouths to feed the finances are tighter, savings are less and it’s a lot more of a hassle to get to church now. Not to mention that my marriage is directly related to my career getting sidetracked when I had to choose between keeping the high paying job or taking care of my wife (then fiance) when she got sick.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:24 pm 143. Mick Stockinger:

An interesting post because this issue became a hot topic in my extended family just a few years ago.

A good friend came out for a visit with her boyfriend, a 50 year old, never married man who she’d had a relationship with for several years.

I liked “Bill” (not his real name), but noted some unusually immature behavior on his part–a great deal of concern for “his stuff” and an alarming self-centeredness. About a week after they left, my brother-in-law and I were our recreating and Bill came up in the conversation, and my B-I-L remarked the same things that I had observed. It occured to us, simultaneously that our shock was less about who he is than about who we are and why. Both of us have been married a long time and raised families of several children. We’ve had the self-centeredness beaten out of us by our kids. Somewhere along the line we transformed from being guys like Bill to the people we are today. I became to observe my married friends with kids and we’re all the same–we think of our families before ourselves. We don’t sweat it when things get broken or lost because “its normal”. We’ve become “civilized”, and its as a result of our marriages and families. Notably, something similar has occurred with our wives. They were just as self-centered as we were in the beginning, but the same dynamics were in force and had similar results.

I don’t think marriage alone civilizes men, but children certainly do.

Another observations: Having a family forces you to live up to your potential. I visited a friend a while back who directed me to a bed & breakfast he was staying at while working on a project that was too far away from home to consider a daily commute. I couldn’t help but note how spartan the place was, but the reality was that he had everything he personally needed there–his clothes, a car, a television, a computer, some exercise equipment, a phone and some books. That led to a discussion about how much money we would actually have to earn to support ourselves in a manner we’re accustomed to. The answer surprised us. I could be a manager at McDonalds and be quite happy with my material comforts, yet both of us have made ridiculous amounts of money most of our adult lives–because we had to. For me personally, I went from making just over 20K to making 80K in a single year–after my oldest son was born. All of a sudden I had a focus that I never had before.

I believe that marriage and children is less about economics than it is biological imperative. Men eventually crave the emotional support that marriage provides. Its lonely being single and one-night stands aren’t a substitute. There is also a hole in one sense of manhood when he isn’t “protecting” someone.

That sense of manhood is also why young men don’t get married. Boys going through adolescence fear women and how easily they can emasculate them with rejection. Its really little different that it is for girls, who dread the prospect of being proven unattractive. Socialization helps to smooth out the rough edges, but every man knows that ultimately, a good part of a man’s sense of “manliness” comes from a woman’s approval, another part from his peers and yet another part from his children.

I have to agree with Kay Hymowitz that prolonged adolescence is the problem here. Boys don’t get married, men do, and men do what they ought to. The rising generation are simply not men and I say this having two adult sons whom I love dearly but am deeply frustrated with. Its not a measure of utility, to use the economic term, but raw fear.

I got married quite young and the rewards have been very gratifying, but I’ll tell you–I was scared at the altar, scared silly when my oldest was born, scared, scared, scared at every challenge. I’m not scared anymore, just a little nervous on occasion. I think the culture makes it a lot easier for men to give into their fear–unemployed, uneducated, videoplaying losers have enormous support networks to enable their prolonged adolesence. Indulgent and prosperous parents let them live at home, use their automobiles, eat their food. Fellow slackers provide a sense of normalcy to their situations. Sex is like cheetos–available everywhere. Yet underneath this apparent idyllic existence is a deep dissatisfaction, a depression (often untreated) and profound regret that is dealt with through more video games, more online poker and more pornography.

In a very real way, we’ve created a kind of gender welfare state, a vicious cycle of dependency, self-doubt and unworthiness.

Final note. Its remarkable how quickly things can be turned around. My oldest son was a wreck two years ago, but he met a girl, fell in love and in no small part because of the dominant culture where we live–got married last year. In a single year, my boy became a man. He not only got a job, he quit that job because he found a better one. He does what he ought to do, taking the initiative to move his life forward and he is observably much, much happier.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:24 pm 144. Paul:

I did marry young. I married my “High School Sweetheart”. However, while I worked night shift, up to 12 hour shifts, she decided to rationalize that even though she could spend the majority of the money I made, since I wasn’t home at night, she should also be able to seek sex elsewhere. I also know of extremely similar situations with at least 2 other close friends. Even though one of these was having sex with a convicted rapist while their child was at home, she still got full custody of the child and child support (where it seems 0% of that support goes to his child). Yes, I am divorced, and doubt I will get married again anytime soon. In the past few years I have been asked to marry no less than 6 times. All women want is to get married anymore. To discuss marriage within a month of meeting is INSANE to me. But, women have absolutely nothing to loose in getting married. Men loose their lives, literally – money, children, freedom, possessions, etc when divorced if it doesn’t work out.
And, I almost forgot about my friend in Iraq, so make that 3 friends, not just 2 ($90,000 a year and they don’t have but a few hundred dollars in the bank and she wants him to stay over there?)

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:26 pm 145. Coaster:

Ian said:

“To sum up, like most of the men who are reading this, I do not want to marry most of the women who are reading this. The difference is that I do not want to fornicate with them temporarily either, so I will not at any time have to awkwardly detach myself from that arrangement.”

————–

That’s pretty much why I’ve settled on a celibate lifestyle. What a lot of guys don’t seem to get is that, married or not, the legal exposure is the same. I’m not a lawyer, but from what I’ve seen of the legal system it probably works like this:

Just one little bit of bodily fluid left behind and your whole future is in the hands of the one you left it with. She has a change of mind–and you are a felon, just on her say-so. You might be able to argue a jury into seeing it your way, but the fact is, you will be forced to argue it in front of a jury, and what will be at stake will be 10-15 years in prison and your registration in a sexual predator database.

Whether you are guilty criminally or not, she can always come after your assets civilly. You might be able to defend against that as well, but don’t count on a jury not giving something to someone they think may be a victim. A jury might not want to go the step of taking your freedom, but they may have less trouble taking all your stuff.

In the end, at the recommendation of your attorney, even though you know you are in the right, you’ll reach an out-of-court settlement for about half…

Or, you could fight and win, which will cost you attorney fees amounting to about, half…

Or lose, and that will cost you everything.

Now that I lay it out… single dudes fornicating may be at greater risk…

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:26 pm 146. Jenny:

I think part of the problem lies with one of Ms. Kymowitz’s assumptions, an assumption that Doctor Helen did not question. Namely, that in order to be “an adult” you have to do certain things. Maturity is not a matter of taking responsibility for your life and the choices you make. No, maturity is watching the “right” movies (There Will Be Blood instead of Transformers) and doing the “right” things (going to the opera instead of playing World of Warcraft).

By Ms. Hymowitz’s standards, both my husband and I are rankly immature. Sure we’ve been married fourteen years and he’s in charge of a $100 million dollar budget at work. But we play video games and we’ll both take giant monsters and battling cyborgs over Syriana any day of the week.

Does that make us immature? No. It means we do what we like, whether people approve or not. Maturity is not caving in to what society expects. It’s doing what you want and accepting the consequences of those choices.

There may be reasons why fewer men wish to marry today — but if so, that’s a separate issue from maturity. If more guys are enjoying life, instead of doing what they’re told will “make them men”, bully for them. That doesn’t make them immature.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:27 pm 147. James S.:

Marriage has been turned in to an almost empty ritual. Constantly bombarded by statistics of 50% divorce, guys, not subject to the biological clock, simply don’t want to take the chance. Guy gets married and his standard of livng goes down. Guy gets divorced and his standard of living typically goes up. And let’s face it, most women, even though fully emancipated, are now a pain in the ass. They have to have it all, which is not possible, and when they don’t achieve it for whatever glass ceiling, the result is more pain for the guy as outright anger or years of “helping her through it”. I guess in the final analysis the post-industrial society has not provided men or women sufficient models of mature behavior and family values.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:29 pm 148. Nick:

The truth is that married men are not what businesses are looking for. Most high paying jobs do not go to those who are tied down they go to the man who is able to work extra hours, move quickly for a job opportunity, and is not restrained by family responsibilities. Our modern culture is built around business and modern business wants flexible single men not responsible family men.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:31 pm 149. dan:

Good post, Mick!

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:35 pm 150. Zombie:

Couple of thoughts:
1. The people saying “why buy the cow” are out to lunch. Even if men weren’t able to get sex as readily as they can now, the marriage rate would still be low due to the impact of things like VAWA, IMBRA etc. Womyn have created a situation wherein men take a very large risk on marrying. Regardless the sex genie is out of the bottle and it’s not ever going back, so blaming the sexual revolution is tantamount to saying we should do something about the moon causing tides detrimental to our beaches.

2. If you want to increase marriage, reinstitute fault based divorce. I’ve no issue with abusive men being dealt with harshly. I do however take great umbrage at the ability of women and the courts to abuse men with nothing more than the statement “I feel threatened”. Well ladies, we feel threatened too and being men we’re responding as best we can by keeping you at arms length or farther.

3. Part of the reason men are speaking out is thanks to improved communication mediums like the internet; men are waking up and being exposed to how women manipulate us on a grand scale through things like shaming language. In the past if a woman invoked questions about a man’s masculinity or maturity we suffered through it because women had a position of innate respect due to their gender.

Nowadays such manipulative techniques can be more easily compared and talked about thus neutralizing their effectiveness. Add in the expectation that we treat them as equals and comments like “grow up” or “man-boy” become meaningless in the face of responses like why? and So? Women are slowly losing their ability to affect men’s behaviour, and if you need evidence of it you need look no further than the attention whores making out with each other in bars. Sure the men gawk, but that’s the only way those women can interest us… the offer nothing else and don’t have the respect nessecary to meaningfully shame us. So to the ladies complaining about us or crying because they can’t find love:You made your bed. Now lie in it. And if that isn’t clear enough:

Cry harder; your tears are delicious.

And before any woman thinks to write me off as just another bitter loser, I’m quite happily married to a wonderful beautiful loving woman. Women as a group need to take a long hard look at their behaviour in this day and age. You’ve been lied to by the feminists for too long and they don’t have your best interests at heart.

Finally, you don’t need to worry about men disliking or hating women because that means on some level we still care, your situation will become far worse if male apathy towards you ever becomes widespread. If you want us to care about your fate, you need to start caring about ours.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:37 pm 151. steve:

Women somehow think that they are the sole arbiters of how men should act, and that if men don’t behave exactly as these women want, then men must have a problem.

Perhaps men just want different things than certain demanding women do. Newsflash: That’s OK.

Personally as someone who’s been married 3 times (at least 10 years each time, and currently married), I don’t see much incentive to be married unless you’re actively planning on children.

In earlier/more primitive societies, women needed marriage to protect them from financial and social ruin. Now they can make their own way, so why should men sign onto this antiquated system? Still, many women (2 out of my 3 wives) were looking for someone to save them…from having to work. Once I got married (to the two), my expenses doubled, my hassles tripled, our sex life rapidly dimished from pre-marital frequency, and I was subjected to a constant barrage of criticism. Who needs that?

I do know one thing, If I ever get married again, it will not be to an American girl. Too many of them have an incredible chip on their shoulder about men.

Completely aside from differing male-female goals and life view, our economic system no longer actively supports marriage. It ain’t the family farm anymore. Married couples must deal with corporate masters who could care less about the health of their relationship. Married couples can be reassigned or promoted to distant locations, meaning they must decline advancement, or one partner must sacrifice their career.

In short, marriage is, from a practical perspective, an obsolete and useless institution.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:39 pm 152. CSMatthew:

The only reason I got married was to have children. I love my wife, but marriage is pointless unless you want to raise a family.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:43 pm 153. Lonely:

I’m a 50 year old never married male. I’d would have loved to be married and have children but it just never happened. I’ve got my faults, but I really think the biggest reasons are that I’m not a Bad-Ass and I’m not rich. I have lost women to both. I have continually put women off because I am a light drinker and I don’t do drugs. I frankly would love to find a woman who has a friends first policy, but where are they?

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:51 pm 154. Bill:

The problem started when marriage went from being a contract (with vows) between a man and a woman to a contract between a man and the state.

We don’t send child support to the ex, we send it to the state.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:53 pm 155. Accipeter:

Boy, you people sure make me even more glad than ever that I was born a lesbian. My life and my long term, committed (but not legally recognized) relationship are lovely; pretty much everything I ever wanted. I love my partner’s children, and I’m so, so grateful I never gave in to societal pressure to have any biological children of my own. My partner and I have very compatible values, expectations, and preferences in how we live our lives.

You poor straight people.

Feb 7, 2008 - 1:57 pm 156. Kremit F:

Divorce, alimony, child support, custody battles, and the chance to raise a kid who will grow up largely without one or the other of us because we’re feuding? And all I have to do is pledge my life to someone I didn’t know 10 years ago and might hate in another 10? Sign me up!

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:03 pm 157. Accipeter:

Oh, and one of the big secrets to success in my relationship with my partner? We have both always been financially independent. We each have a great many job skills and enjoy rewarding careers. Neither of us depends on the other for financial support, and we each contribute 50/50 to building up our shared assets and investments.

And I totally agree with several previous posters that there is little reason for heterosexuals to get married unless you want to have children. If one parent is going to stay home and raise the children, that meant that parent is foregoing the career advancement and earning potential they might have had; therefore, there must be some provision for compensating and supporting that parent if the marriage dissolves.

But I generally think women are fools for giving up their earning power and depending on men financially (or vice versa). In this society, economic independence on the part of both parties is crucial for a fair and truly happy relationship.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:05 pm 158. Francis W. Porretto:

Why are young men marriage-shy? Haven’t we been here before? Haven’t we been here more than once?

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:08 pm 159. Pixelkiller:

Earlier this morning I encountered this post and was moved to comment. After being out all day playing on my motorcycle, I come home to this in my e-mail joke from a friend:
A woman came home, screeching her car into the driveway, and ran into the house. She slammed the door and shouted at the top of her lungs, ‘Honey, pack your bags. I won the lottery!’ The husband said, ‘Oh my God! What should I pack, beach stuff or mountain stuff?’ ‘Doesn’t matter,’ she said. ‘Just get out.’
And after that from another friend there was:
Marriage is a relationship in which one person is always right, and the other is a husband.
So, now at the end of the day there are a lot more comments but not one hell-of-a lot more light.
My grandfather who was in the Alaska gold rush in his youth and who has long since passed away, said something to me I remember well:
“Before you buy the calf, look at the mama cow”.
Like I wrote earlier, is there someone complaining? Certainly not me or men in general. We adapt.
One last thing just to put a fine point on it: my Harley doesn’t need to be fed, clothed or otherwise attended to when not being ridden. (Poor choice of words maybe, but what-the-hell, there it is).
Come on now guys, life is great if you don’t weaken and keep your head about you.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:10 pm 160. Anthony:

I am a 25 year old male. I see no point in getting married. I am a chemical engr making a very nice life for myself. I own my own car and next year the house will be payed off.
Now if I get married, I will be spending 10-13k on a wedding that is all for her. I need to take a risk on losing half of everything. I will have to talk/ask my wife about spending my money??? And what do I get out of this deal??
And best of all, I have a live in girlfriend. There is no incentive for me to even think of marriage.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:12 pm 161. Accipeter:

By the way, the one and only reasonable assessment of whether you are a mature adult or not:

Do you support yourself financially?

Do you stay out of trouble with the law?

If the answer to both of those questions is “yes,” then you are an adult. Period. End of story.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:12 pm 162. Jacknut:

Reading all these comments, I’m glad I married my wife. She’s truly my best friend. Hell, I even love my mother-in-law and she’s a northeastern liberal feminist college professor. Oh yeah, and I still watch sports, prefer blow-em-ups to kiss-em-ups and play a lot on my XBox360. But I do have to admit that my wife made my buy the home theater set-up. She’s a tyrant.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:12 pm 163. Isaac:

“Lol- it sounds to me like you boys are getting pretty defensive over being called immature. Why can’t you all just accept your fate as the inferior gender? Stop debating the obvious and go do something useful with your testosterone saturated manliness.”

This sort of comment is why I have to try really, really hard to respect women. It’s hard to take most of them seriously because this is often their view. I find myself snickering more often than not.

I think one of the problems with this whole issue is the assumed definitions of maturity and adulthood. Why are video games adolescent again? Are sports also adolescent? Are the authors of these articles assuming that the only worthwhile activities in life are pursuit of career, establishing long-term relationships, and breeding?

I’m not quite getting it. My personal view is that the ultimate maturity is trying to better the world you live in for others. I try to do that as much as possible, and when I intend to keep trying to have a greater influence. So if I try to make the world a better place through, writing, volunteer activities, and politics, but I go home at night and play Halo and look at porn then I am immature?

This whole issue is as ridiculous as most of the articles written about it. I take the same view towards it as most men take towards silly feminists: eye-rolling and ignoring.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:21 pm 164. Charles Watson:

I think that a large part of being a “man” in the tradional sense, is being the breadwinner, or sole provider for the family. The wife runs the household and looks after the children, while the husband concentrates on making a living for his family.

Economic changes over the past 30 years have made it more difficult to support a family on one income. Keeping up what passes for a middle class lifestyle usually requires both spouses to work full time. Without a clear – cut division of labor and responsibilities, marriage just does not work as well as it used to.

A successful marriage requires a degree of self – sacrifice from both parties. Nowadays, most American men and women (myself included)are too self – centered, materialistic, and narcissistic to make it work.

Another factor is that society and culture no longer reinforce the institution of marriage the way they used to. Family and community ties have weakened, and religion has much less influence. No one looks down at you, or thinks there is something wrong with you if you are single.

As for me, I am 55, and never married. I have been in love a couple of times, and have some good female friends whom I like and respect, but have no desire to enter into a relationship with.

I have a low – stress 9 – 5 job doing something I enjoy. I like a certain amount of solitude in my life. I don’t make a lot of money, and don’t have a lot of material things, but I am debt – free. I have a lot of interests and hobbies, and enough income and time to pursue them. To be honest, I am perfectly happy. I cannot imagine being shackled to a modern American woman. There is simply nothing in it for me.

Feb 7, 2008 - 2:22 pm 165. John:

Kay Hymowitz is, unfortunately, typical of the propagated and propagandized positions of modern women writers’ views on gender issues.

While she slanders young men for choosing lifestyles that are in their own self-interest, she celebrates similar types of “selfish” behaviors in young women.

Am I imagining this schizophrenic take? Absolutely not. Look for her article, “The New Girl Order,” written 12/07, and lay it side-by-side next to her article lambasting young men. If feminism has made a great deal of fuss over overturning double-standards based upon gender, they’ve proven themselves quite competent in creating their own double standards.

This has been a growing problem with modern feminist thought for some time. The concerns of women in society are legitimate. The burdens of human sexuality are unequal in physical and psychological terms. But behind the veil of so-called egalitarian purpose that was the promise of feminism, the second wave of feminism took several reactive terms for the worst in embracing reactive “solutions” to human sexuality and reproduction, and have masked their seriously flawed reactive sexual positions with flawed concepts of social equality.

Where is the real support in feminism for a young mother? Feminists have utterly failed in developing a social recognition and social reward system for the most unique contribution of women as a gender to society–that of carrying and delivering children. Is that sexist, or just the blunt truth? What does either gender do in the day-to-day of society that couldn’t be substituted for the other gender, except for this facet of life, which is essential and critical to the continuation of society as a whole? There’s lip service, but you don’t see a million women marching on Washington for mother’s rights and advocating real-world ways for a woman to balance her time with children with that of contributing to society as a whole, or receive social status and value for being a mother (or as well, ways to better integrate fathers into the care of their young, as they should, and as feminism should actively encourage as a so-called progressive movement). Instead, you see feminists marching for the right to abort pregnancies. Where is the support for low income, unwed mothers? There’s lip service, but feminism really aims at enabling the wants and needs of college-educated, middle class and above females.

Where do you see feminism supporting real efforts to encourage and support mutually rewarding, cooperative relationships between men and women in intimate relationships? You don’t, you hear lip service, but then you get VAWA legislation and divorce on demand support, and family courts that most men now understand are hopelessly biased against fathers, all “reactive” solutions when relationships are dissolved, but I don’t see any “proactive” measures advanced to help keep people together. You get constant propaganda and campaigns painting men as abusers and women as helpless victims, even in the face of statistical evidence that women aren’t always victims (the percentages I show of perpetrators of DV indicate the general percentages are 60% men/40% female, a noticeable difference, but not large enough to completely absolve millions of cases in which women are the aggressors). Women simply ARE NOT violent under feminism. EVER.

Feminism like to choose their syndromes, and lay down specific double-standards in how they are applied. In Europe, PMS can be used as a mitigating factor in certain criminal trials. However, feminism dictates you can never discuss PMS in any context which implies that women’s psychological states are affected by biology, because that would make them different than men, and a version of individuality most resembling a male seems to be their paradigm for everyone. But feminism absolutely and vehemently dismisses PAS (Post-Abortion-Syndrome) as an absolute myth, doing a great disservice to women who may have psychological issues before or post-abortion. Are all women intensely happy before and after an abortion? That’s the myth used to constantly reinforce the bizarre idea that abortion is about female liberation. Absurd? Remember the “I had an Abortion” campaign not too long ago? I’m not writing this from a standard pro-life position (I know how feminists like to polarize opposition immediately), but rather from the position of concerned son/brother/husband/father. 1973 should have been the year we all realized feminism wasn’t quite the movement we thought it was, by taking such an flippant way out of the deep issue of human reproduction and choices we make. I warn my daughters of the fallacy of this strange position on careless heterosexual interaction. The potential consequences to an irresponsible male are nothing compared to the real consequences to an irresponsible female. That’s not a matter a social movement can change at this point in human history–that’s primal human biology. Girls get pregnant, boys don’t. Girls have abortions to end unintended pregnancies (and the way out “well what about rape?” I always hear, and to that, I ask “well, what about the 90+% of abortions that occur because of completely consensual activity where an unintended pregnancy occured?”) Taking a reactive stance against this reality does women more harm than good in the long run. If abortion is not capable of being a complex psychological, emotive, and ethical decision for some women, why aren’t abortion clinic waiting rooms happier places, full of women celebrating their womanhood?

In many ways, men have distinctive advantages in our societies. But the answer is not to villify and strangle men who either would consider committing to marriage or are already committed to marriage. In the search for “equality,” feminism has assumed that men and women are equal. That is not true egalitarianism. Egalitarianism should open the playing field and specify the prosocial outcomes which are desired so that all have “equality of opportunity.” Feminism supports the idea of “equality” imo because its an easy way out. If men and women are “equal,” then we should see “equality of outcome” for both genders. Feminists can then point out that in certain framed instances, women do not produce the same OUTCOME, and they therefore can use this fact as a basis for the argument that they are exploited, repressed, or otherwise VICTIMS of society, and are due redress, compensation, and special preferences to ensure “equality.”

Ultimately, feminism will probably derail itself, and it will lose any remaining credibility to be a truely progressive, lasting force in shaping society. In practice, feminism has proven to support reactive, anti-social measures in the quest to advance individual female self-determinism in society. I think feminism tried to tackle very complex sociodynamics and failed.

Apr 1, 2008 - 6:06 pm 166. Suzette Sleacher:

most feminists remind me of LBJ, looks wise and actswise. He killed JFK, a phil-andering
catholic like women get abortions and tatoos and stretch marks. Most southern women belong on the Jerry Springer show, Many of the desease-laden receptcles of today want to silch men of their hard assets. Instead of getting fat After marriage, they do so before
so trapping men subsequently is harder! This is why so many of you loser men need viagra !

Apr 6, 2008 - 2:05 pm 167. Bob Petty:

To Suzette:
your blatant statement has truth but also is a subsidiation of the female magazines that show
anorexia women as the ideal. My mother was fat so i prefer that and like being bossed around by vociferant women because they are smarter than us men today. But most of us do not need need viagra, just love and acceptance. Peace out.

Apr 6, 2008 - 2:20 pm 168. tom marx:

You have heard of the trophy wife? Well am the trophy husband. My first wife was non-supportive while I was in law school and after a several years while floundering to get established she left me. I had few assets and no kids she got half of nothing, I paid off 45k of remaining student loans. I married my secretary three years later and never dreamed I could be so happy, I have plenty of opportunities to cheat, butof course I never do
because she would find out and that “my hero” look in her eyes would vanish. My advice to you men is quit being so weak, so apathetic and so JEALOUS of women success. They can always go to the sperm bank and raise the children themselves. Even if she has children by another man while you are married, god will give you one of your own to raise-childless couples concieve after adoption!

Apr 6, 2008 - 2:41 pm 169. Arjay:

Remember when a woman needed a man like a fish needed a bicycle? What an ironic twist- turns out the bicycle doesn’t need or want the fish! What a blow to the female ego! No wonder talk of a marriage strike infuriates women. Of course, that old saying went out of fashion about the same time that Gloria Steinem got married…
The problem with feminist analysis of marriage is that they set about trying to convince themselves that women were somehow being shortchanged in marraige; therefore, they decided to “even the field” by pushing for more and more draconian, anti-male legislation. When men reacted, quite logically, by turning away from marriage or commitment, the response of feminists has been to turn to that old standby, male bashing (AKA the Peter Pan syndrome). If men don’t want to marry, why by god there must be something wrong with men! Don’t they know how lucky they are to have a woman willing to live with them…?? They must be immature, or anti-woman, or suffer from some kind of pathology…
As the men posting here have shown, however, men are just overcoming what has been, for generations, a form of female oppression. Men don’t need marriage- it is, was, and always will be, a social device for controlling men and providing for women and children. Women benefit from having a man who is forced, by law, to support her (the opposite is not true) and her children. Once he’s done the job of insemination, then he can be legally discarded, if the occasion arises. The problem for women, though, is that if another man isn’t available, they find themselves raising children without the benefit of male resources. Furthermore, women need emotional connection more than men, and need sex just as much (in spite of our gender bias in this regard). So feminism has set women up to be the ultimate losers in this uneven competition, and the new generation of men are the ironic beneficiaries of feminist social enginering! The real backlash against feminism isn’t going to come from men- it’ll come when women realize that they’ve been conned out of what is most important to their emotional well being- men- by other women who were pushing an anti male agenda.

Apr 9, 2008 - 5:12 pm 170. Joey Lala:

“The real backlash against feminism isn’t going to come from men- it’ll come when women realize that they’ve been conned out of what is most important to their emotional well being- men- by other women who were pushing an anti male agenda.”

Excellent point Arjay. I have been making this point for sometime now. I look at this little social engineering experiment called feminism that was hoisted upon us by the ruling elite of the anglosphere (an experiment that has gone horribly wrong I might add) from a human ecology perspective. Men are now delaying marriage until their late twenties, or early thirties, for those that marry at all. You can find the specific reasons for that in every single post in this thread. So a graph showing the median age of a man when he first marries is trending up. Women’s fertility begins to gradually decline in their late twenties, so their maximum fertility, based on age, begins to trend down at that time. I believe that these two trends have already converged and are now diverging. You can make an argument that humans urge to maximize their reproductive fitness, is our strongest urge. Women’s reproductive fitness is now being impacted by these social trends, as well as mens. At what point the loss of reproductive fitness due current social constructs begins to demand real change in those same social constructs, remains to be seen. But I am convinced when the feminist agenda is exposed and shattered into a million pieces, it will be women doing most of the shattering. I just hope it wont come too late for our civilization. An army of angry, barren catwomen is a frightening prospect for even the most battle hardened soldier.

Apr 12, 2008 - 1:05 am 171. Ricky:

ElvenPhoenix: “My brother is 33 and unmarried and likes it that way. He says that if he ever does get married she’ll “wind up with all my money”. He’s never even brought a girl home for any of our family events – Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter…my sister and I are both a little distressed by this as we would really like him to get married and have kids. She has two step-children and is unable to have any of her own, and my husband and I have six children between us. Although logically I can understand his position, surely SOMEWHERE out there is a woman who would be a good wife, as he’s a really great guy.”

Why are you distressed? Why would you like to have him get married and have kids? You obviously don’t care about your brother’s wishes to NOT get married. You obviously don’t believe in him as a person. You obviously don’t consider the events he attends for you for him, or you wouldn’t call them “our” events, referring to you and your sister. It is obviously you and your sister verses him. Your sister wants him to have kids because she can’t. That is damn selfish. Kids are serious business. I personally believe you shouldn’t have them unless your life is so great, you can pass it down to someone else and be supportive if they shove back in your face.

Think about. The only things you have said about your brother are that 1) he knows what he wants (no wife) and 2) he wants to keep his money. You have implied that he’s a really great guy so he SHOULD be married. Why? Why? Why? And why should he settle for a second rate woman (making her and you and your sister happy) and not just wait until some INCREDIBLE woman blows him away. What makes you happy doesn’t make everyone happy.

John M.
“What do all these single guys think they’re going to be doing when they’re 47, when the time spent at the gym (assuming they still go) no longer leaves them “cut” but merely holds at bay the 2- 3 inches their waists want to expand, when the weekend football games leave them hobbling on Monday and they have become utterly invisible to 20 something girls?”

They think if they get married, they’ll be looking at woman who has as much interest in them as that 20 year old but who thinks she’s entitled to more. Tell me John M., what should a guy, married or unmarried be doing at 47? Should their life be over because they have no woman? Should having a woman be the golden key to their happy place? Those are your implications.

My point is that many people on here trying to “help” young men to marry seem to have no plan, idea, or guess at how a man can have a life that they enjoy outside of a woman. Every creative, exciting experience that life offers, if a man purses it instead of a woman, is made to seem trivial. A man at the gym at 47! I say just do it! You rock! Aged and healthy sounds like a good wine to me.

In contrast, where are the arguments about women getting out of the shopping mall and hanging out less with their pack of juvenile women friends who only seek the guy who their friends will be jealous of? What makes more bucks each year, the tastes of women or the tastes of men? I’m going to have to go with women, just from taking a look at the mall. And now, masculinity means providing for a woman more than it means having a way of life that fulfills you. The shift is subtle, but it is there. Sloppy man syndrome is just what is left after female consumerism. The only answer is discipline, which is difficult to foster in the self and is misunderstood by so many fathers it devolves into physical and emotional abuse.

Being in 7.5 years of long term relationships, I have question for those who have braved the single life (which I’m just getting into) and met someone they are HAPPY with: did you meet your wife in a social setting or in a chance meeting?

Since 9th grade fruit flies, I’ve believed that the term adult is ill suited to humans. Mature is even more ill suited. The only term that flies with me is responsibility to what you say and what you take part in. I guess that makes me immature because I don’t see a woman as necessary if I don’t say anything to her or take any part of her, no matter how much she may believe herself to be so.

PDN: “It seems to me that the problem with marriage as outlined in this blog is most people don’t think they are becoming one family through their marriage — warts and all.
Why?”
That is a good question. You assume that becoming a family is good thing. I know more people with broken, abusive, emotionally empty families than I do with solid, supportive ones. It sounds more like your one good family is absorbing people near it because it is desirable. So all those family members are getting what they want out of it. How many people do you know whose lives work like that? And why does your family work so well? That is what you should write about. Generalities like “becoming one” and “becoming a family” mean next to nothing to others. Expand on them. If you write, you should write to your audience. It seems everyone is writing about what they ‘get’ out of the blog.

I know. I’m an ass. But just know if I respond to your post there is something I value deeply in them and I truly do want to hear your thoughts.

Mick “I got married quite young and the rewards have been very gratifying, but I’ll tell you–I was scared at the altar, scared silly when my oldest was born, scared, scared, scared at every challenge. I’m not scared anymore, just a little nervous on occasion. I think the culture makes it a lot easier for men to give into their fear–unemployed, uneducated, videoplaying losers have enormous support networks to enable their prolonged adolescence. Indulgent and prosperous parents let them live at home, use their automobiles, eat their food. Fellow slackers provide a sense of normalcy to their situations. Sex is like cheetoes–available everywhere. Yet underneath this apparent idyllic existence is a deep dissatisfaction, a depression (often untreated) and profound regret that is dealt with through more video games, more online poker and more pornography.”

I complete disagree with this. I graduated with two degrees and know a good deal of video game playing, cheetoes eating guys who have jobs with their degrees. Most of their parents were unsupportive of who they were as people and like you, feel that there is some “man” standard people should live up to, of course, completely dictated by those who came before. It is funny to hear myself and my friends scold our parents for being immature when they put themselves is situations we never would. Funny thing is, sex is not like cheetoes for them. They are too responsible to risk that kind of behavior. The dissatisfaction and depression come from regret at a society that doesn’t want “men” but wants do-boys. My friends work hard under rough conditions. I would never call them slackers. Yet what are the benefits? Social ostracism. Distance. Women are looking for the guys who keep having to look for work because their only goal is women, who only care about others and what others will praise them for, or those that have truly ridiculous amounts of money so they can act like those who keep having to look for work. As I always say, don’t show me the problem all day, EXPLAIN the solution. Break it down. What are the benefits of being a real “man” other than making YOU (Mick) happy?

Sounds like your son got lucky but not because of your efforts. He got married because you wanted him to and didn’t rise because of his own strength. You better get a lot closer to him because if he has to move away, his luck may not go with him. He sounds less like a man than like a made-man, cookie cut from your “dominant culture”. How American is that? How _insert_son’s_name_here is that?

And could you please define “man”? You can say it one hundred times and it still doesn’t define itself.

Isaac. Well said! The only thing I would say in return is that many people go OUT to make the world better. Always give something to those around you when you can. I think it is just as immature to do “volunteer work” that you don’t really understand the impact of as it is to call decent people who enjoy something you don’t immature.

Second of all, I don’t think Kay Hymowitz is evil for having separate views. Humans are logic boxes and that’s just the way the brain works. The purpose of the blog is to put those views side by side and candidly get to the truth. Once again, I respect most of the people who post and all who post on topic.

Tom Marx obviously feels strong because he married a woman who was subservient to him and now can’t think of him any other way. Successful women aren’t the problem. The problem is women who don’t accept men for who they are and want them to be something that they are not. They play a power game with men who ARE strong. They play a power game with mean who hold on to hope which is much more difficult to grasp than a law degree or the secretary that comes with it.

Arjay. At some point and time, women were just as oppressed as men now feel. Both ways are wrong.

I love feminism. I love strong women who can do for themselves and know what they want. But I hate feminist supremacist. I think we need to separate the good from the bad there, maybe being a bit more specific. Feminism is about a women being defined by herself and not her role in the home or by here man. Feminist supremacy is about women dominating the culture, being seen as less accountable yet more capable and worthy for little reason. And I still believe that under all the social crap, there are more than a few good women who just need the right conditions to make a change and be their wonderful selves.

Apr 15, 2008 - 10:30 pm 172. Anarchiste:

Women are on a marriage strike, too.
This is very good: the more the better.
However, it’s not enough. Marriage has to be abolished, pure and simple.
Then, fatherhood AND motherhood must also be abolished: the state is a much better parent than either men or women.
Children raised in state farms would be much happir and would become very obedient and productive citizens.
We tend to forget that children are government property.

When that is done, at long last, most problems incurred in society will vanish.

May 1, 2008 - 9:42 am 173. Jeffrey:

I am a 43 year old single male with an MBA and a self made millionaire.The last thing that I need is some “femi-nazi” dictating to me.I have not had a serious relationship for at least 20 years and consider that to be a prime ingredient in my success.Men that are thinking to get married should read the laws beforehand.They are ridiculous! to say the least.Women wanted their “freedom” to pursue their own interests and now they are doing that…and guess what?….they are still not happy.Ask me if I give a damn.I meet lots of single women every day of the week.I hesitate in giving them my business card…which they always ask for…because they call all the time and annoy me.Besides sex I have no other use for them.They can’t cook,clean and all they want to do is spend “MY” money….999 of every 1000 single women I meet are put into 3 categories…Idiots,Losers and complete morons!….I have no time for such idiots.Besides they all have kids from previous relationships and I am not going to raise some other guys kid…why should I?In fact my married friends are very lucky that I have never married and have money…when they seperate and divorce I bail them out of finacial ruin.Keep being single guys…don’t let some harlot who pretends to be sincere trap you into a legal quagmire…which ultimately leads to finacial suicide!Thanks!

May 5, 2008 - 10:20 pm 174. Thomas:

Remember one things guys:…”Anything that bleeds for 7 days and does not die…cannot be trusted”

May 5, 2008 - 11:26 pm 175. Freddie M:

Feminism is sexism, and men are being systematically emasculated by subtle and powerful forces. The last thing I want to do is perpetuate this insanity by marrying into it.

May 8, 2008 - 9:31 am 176. Jason C:

I would say today’s men (and women, for that matter) in general are more like rats. They only push a lever so they can get the food. If the reward doesn’t come rather instantly, or in the way they expect or demand, then they won’t run the maze.

Men, on the other hand, run the maze for the personal challenge and growth that it gives them. Men and real women enter marriage not to directly address their own benefits, but to create a family which is more than just the sum of its parts (whether or not that family has children). After hard work (and smart work) the family can be a success, and benefits rain down on the parties involved.

IMHO, rats run the rat race, while men and women deal in humanity.

May 8, 2008 - 1:55 pm 177. Milli:

I am sincerely impressed by the so few women on here defending our gender. Perhaps it’s because deep-down they know that there is no defending the “cause” of feminism and the effects it has had on our country?

I am 22, and I married my husband when I was 20. We started dating when I was 18 and he was 22, and we met via the internet (though niether of us are “fugly,” as some feminists have assumed was the case; apparently just because you don’t sleep around, go out to bars, and parade yourself around in a halter, you must be ugly). We married because we loved each other and were best friends. He graduated from college, and we were married a month later. I am still in college today and work about 30 hours a week, and he is a web developer.

Being married has been the single most difficult experience of my life, but I also feel that it has been the single most rewarding. We’ve both done seriously mean, bad things to each other, but we’ve also both forgiven those transgressions.

We have recently decided that having children is important. Too many people look at children as the “next thing” you do after you get married. We look at it as sacrificing our current life for a completely new one. We feel that the biggest problem facing our society is there being no caregiver at home to manage a household, so I am going to stay at home with the kids until they’re old enough to be in high school or college. By that time, I’ll still be young enough to finish my master’s degree and start a career to earn for a while. We hope to have girls so that we can raise them right; it pains us to see the disrepsect, man-hating, and inequality that faces the gender today.

I can agree that there are few women that seem like they would be good wives. I have a lot of distrust for females and have very few female friends. They don’t want me to do what makes me happy; they want me to be just like them. They try to tell me that my relationship is “messed-up” and that he treats me wrong instead of letting me decide my fate for myself.

I hope that men look really hard to find the good girls. There are respectful, modest, chaste girls out there. You gotta look outside the metro areas, I think, though. The internet can be a good place to find common ground. I sincerely empathize with men today. Good luck.

May 9, 2008 - 7:01 am 178. Matthew Graybosch:

I love my wife of almost four years, and I do not regret marrying her after a four year long-distance courtship. However, if my marriage ended I would not marry again. I probably would not even date again.

You see, I’m a loner and have been since childhood. I enjoy solitude. Being alone gives me time and space to think, to read, to write, to tinker with machinery. And, yes, after a long day at work I sometimes like to watch an action movie, or a comedy. Or sometimes I want to fire up my Xbox and blow things up.

Fortunately for me, I found a woman who understands me and accepts that even though I love her, even though I worship her, I still possess all of the qualities that women adore in cats but tend to despise in men. I’m solitary. I sometimes take long walks late at night if I can’t sleep. The feelings of people other than my wife just don’t matter to me.

I won’t apologize for being what I am. I am selfish. I do sometimes let my inner problem child out to play. And I love my wife and will have no other woman because she does not demand that I ask her to forgive me for being a man. I do not think that I will find another woman in America who will accept me as I am.

As it is, I met my wife in Australia. Today is the day we met, eight years ago.

May 9, 2008 - 10:31 am 179. Matthew Graybosch:

Anarchiste, you say “We tend to forget that children are government property.” while calling yourself an anarchist? How can you not see the contradiction between your alias and your words?

If you were a real anarchist, you would understand that no individual is the property of any individual or group of individuals. Every individual belongs to himself.

May 9, 2008 - 10:45 am 180. atlantis girl:

Hello men out there,
If you marry a slut, live with a slut you deserve everything you get from her. YOu want the definition of a slut: a woman who will sleep with you with no commitment. Men used to understand that, if you had to have a slut, you understood what she was.

I have friends who are not sluts. They are dateless. So women want bad boys hmm. Well men want sluts.

Here is the solution, if she will sleep with you dump her. Keep doing it. Form support groups and agree to not marry sluts. Treat sluts with disdain. Say bad things(loudly in public) about women like Barbara Walters and Paris Hilton. If you have to have a slut, understand what she is and treat her accordingly. Most women, the weak ones, will stop being sluts to gain your attention. You will regain your honor,your wealth, more sex(eventually) than you can imagine. Sluts usually stop sleeping with you after you marry them.

May 9, 2008 - 11:15 am 181. John c:

Let the dead bury the dead.

A slut will get her due,.. she always does.

But a Godly Man, keeps his heart and his hands pure, and clean.

For at the end of the day, No Woman can satisfy the core of man.

so then…until men re discover the first principals of life,

the rest of the discourse is … futile.

May 9, 2008 - 2:43 pm 182. Augustus:

Jack Olson,
Your comment of Biblical verse “it is not good for man to be alone” is partly true. There once was a time that women were worthy of marriage. Today with evil feminism, corrupt famly courts and unfaithful crooked women,unfaitful women, unfit wives, unfit mothers, “it is good for man to be alone”.
jessica Troisi..your pretty stupid. I’ll prove it. ” Men inferior gender”? How can that be if your feminazi courts are stacked up agains’t men. I’ll tell you why? Because women by nature are inferior to men. you won’t compete on even bases. women talk about independence. Truth is at the end of the day, a crooked women and the unjust courts will rob men of their children and hard earned money. As one of my fellow employees said during a break-up with a pathetic female specie…after the break-up and during court proceedings, her thinking was ” all that belongs to me is mine and half of what is yours is mine”. He paid for her education that she got a pretty good job with. He had a house when she moved in with two three children. She got half of it. To add insult to injury, she got child support for children that were not even his. She wanted half of his rrsp’s and on and on etc. He is a very nice man that she got bored of and wanted out. I can tell many other stories of brothers, friends even strangers who have experienced the injustices.
No way i’ll ever marry. Every morning i wake-up relieved not to see a female next to my pillow in deep thought scheming.

Told you Jessica…i have proved your pretty stupid.

A man that marries todays women and have children with them is a fool. Not only should he be concerned for himself, but also to leave the children in their care…pretty risky, especially the boys. Remember that these boys will be discriminated agains’t by other women such as their mothers.

May 9, 2008 - 9:21 pm 183. Adri-from-Canada:

I am on the of seemingly few women who lost nearly all of her (<substantial, six-figure, pre-marriage) assets as a result of marriage to someone very inappropriate – essentailly a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

The man I married was my boyfriend (puppy love) in Grade 13, and, being somewhat innocent to the ways of the world, I thought all men were like my (highly respectable and responsible father and grandfather). To my great financial and emotional peril and subsequent distress, I did not realise that the man I married essentially was operating at an adolescent level (emotionally) – and who did not feel that a little issue being married would cramp his (hidden-to-me) life style of sex (with other ladies), drugs and rock’n roll. My ex-husband enjoyed pornography movies, magazines like Hustler, Swank et al (even, I found out much later, showing said magazines to my father). To add insult to injury, after finishing his white collar job on Friday nights, this man would frequent the local strip clubs with his buddies. I found out about all of this behaviour (and more) after I married him, oh, much, much later after myself and my family supported him financially through five years of post-secondary education (college then university).

After having (finally) left him, albeit childless, I found that men did not (and do not) appreciate a goody two shoes type of woman who is sincere. And no, I am not ugly nor fat nor uneducated.

Now that I have passed the 45-year old mark, I am considered in astonishingly good shape. I have no wrinkles, am fit, have good morals, etc., but I cannot find a man who I would feel comfortable with. The men I have met all want to jump into bed – and have absolutely no intentions of marrying – ever.

Sadly, I wanted to educate my now ex-husband – so that I would be able to stay at home and have three or four children – then pursue a Masters and a Phd – much later when the kids were in Grade 7 or 8.

Sadly, my ex also spent money with abandon – and stated to me that he did not care whether he lived past 55 – hence he had no desire to plan his life with me. He just did not care.

My now ex-husband lost his white collar professional job and had to declare bankruptcy after shacking up with a women he met in a bar. I have no idea as to where the money went that was taken from our joint account after I trustingly sold two homes which I owned prior to the marriage in order to liquidate so that (ahem) we could build our dream home. Of course this never happened.

I am a very attractive woman, Master-level educated and with good morals and excellent well-educated friends and a very nice extended family who all mirror my ethics and life habits. But I cannot forthe life of me find a man with whom I could start a relationship. No one wants to get married. Moreover, men THINK that all women subsribe to the “Sex in the City” television programme mentality as displayed by the four pathetic loser females portrayed on that show.

Unfortunately, I never had children. After 12 years of marriage, my ex-husband stated that he did not want to be 55 with 20-year-old children. Another excuse from a man who lived in a state of perpetual adolescence.

Meanwhile, I sacrificed my finances and my full efforts at working hard to ensure this guy could go to university without any worries or financial care. I am not bitter, however; just very, very sad about the fact that my efforts were not appreciated; in fact my efforts were laughed at.

I felt that I had to make these points – as I see so many bitter men having written about their experiences. Not all women are bad, selfish gold-diggers. And not all men are bad either – no, not at all.

There are women who have also been financially excoriated; moreover, there are women who have put all of their efforts into the institution of marriage and in fact have sacrificed big time to ensure that their spouses and children prosper within the marriage – so that they both can build a family together and have security and a legacy to pass down through the generations.

Having said what I have said, I would again get married, but this time I would certainly want to see that I am being cherished, loved, protected and respected. Becuase of my excellent childhood role models, I thought all men were like Pops or Granddad. Sadly, how men and women have trained each other (to simply use one another sexually and disregard goodness one another as weak and outmoded), in addition to the inception of the feminist mindset courtesy of ghouls like Gloria Steinem and her ilk, has resulted in many “good” girls not even having a chance to get married or re-married or procreate and be loving wives and mothers.

Gloria Steinem and Hugh Hefner should be sued for their role in co-opting the minds of the young and helping break the wholesomeness and goodness of society and the male-female dynamic of courtship, marriage, children and a life lived together in accordance with the logical and socially necessary guidelines of the Ten Commandments – (which are just common sense – not religious tenets at all).

May 9, 2008 - 10:04 pm 184. Shaun:

The risk is in no way worth the gain these days.

May 10, 2008 - 4:24 pm 185. azoreano:

Dear Adri,
It’s unfortunate you married a sad creature. It is a perfect example of people marrying opposites. Good with bad. I hope you will find a good man sometime in the future. Ufortunately with the courts stacked up agains’t men will make it difficult. You are from Canada just as i am. http://WWW.canadacourtwatch.com shows the corruption of our laws,many Judges, Lawyers, and employees of the system. It is controled by shallow radicals. Even them that take advantage of the system are extremenly shallow. It is almost never about the children who are usually victimized, but by selfish, ignorant adults that constantly reach out for selfish gain.
There are two authors that have just written books about today’s marriages and it’s conclusion. After much research and interviews with such that these books target, you will see the dilemma men face in the face of marriage. Even a loving GOD would not permit such one to marry under such conditions with the full knowledge of the results based on percentages. http://Www.womensinfidelity.com written by a female author and http://www.thegreatfemale.com written by a male.
They both came to the same conclusions. Many other statistics i have heard in the mainstream media also proves their point. The most recent one came out of England. Women push for marriage, get the home they always wanted, have the children they wanted, they go through a crisis such as boredom. Have an affair and on many cases leave the husband to the newfound lover. Of course they take the children and much of his finances. All this to a husband that remained loving and loyal. He is left in a state of confusion wondering what he did wrong. All the while she is the culprid. According to the authors of these books and other statistics, of the 50 percent divorce cases, 75 percent were the women that instigated for a divorce. The month of January and the day after valentines are the most chosen dates for such according to the words of lawyers that represent such creatures, aswell lawyers that represent the intended victim, males and their children.
There is no accountability on the women’s part. she gains at all cost.
Unfortunately you are one of the few women that has experienced the fate of males. Without the same sympathy for many women, i sincerely hope there is light at the end of the tunnel for you.

Good Luck

May 10, 2008 - 4:45 pm 186. Botelho:

Correction: w w w. t h e g r e a t f e m a l e c o n. c o m

May 10, 2008 - 5:48 pm 187. Eran Reya:

As Gloria Steinem said, “Women have become the men they always wanted to marry.”

It’s strange that the very characteristics that women destroyed through feminism, are exactly the traits they desire now. But men won’t put out now. It’s a strange transfer of power where men really have all of the leverage now, if they stay single. Marriage for men has become the prison that first and second wave feminist said was stifling them. Brothers, stay free! Women got what they wanted, but its not really what they wanted. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

As for the white power idiots. I have this to say. Most white power advocates are not super rich white people, but poor white trash and middle class whites who wrongly believe they have something in common with super rich white people. Get this. The super rich don’t like poor white trash and wannabe middle class whites, why do you think the wealthy gap is increasing. So stop blaming brown people and look at the white idiot leadership that your majority population elected in this country. You have no one to blame but yourself, and when the economy goes, the Aryan, white power think isn’t going to mean anything, becaue you’ll be broke, homeless, and essentially a “nigger” by anyone with any real money. Welcome to the New Dark Age idiots.

May 10, 2008 - 7:09 pm 188. GLOVER WASHINGTON:

We have been set up to believe that we are drones who work for women and children via financial sacrifices, now called child support.
Women now have their cakes and eat them too. They project themselves as the eternal victim, while promoting themselves as “superwomen”, aka singleparent.
The programmers have fed them the Lie and they believe it! To them, the world would be a much better place, if only women were running it.
If you have ever experienced the misfortune of having to enter the chambers of THE SYSTEM,you know first hand what a convicted criminal endures in prison. Metal detectors, Xray machines, and FEMALE guards and workers who assume you are guilty and capable of mass murder the moment you walk in the place.
Women control our money when we date them;they control it during marriage, and they force it from us in child support in divorce. They can destroy men by claiming rape. A sixteen year old female can fornicate with any one under 18, but the 14 year old boy who gets a 21 year old woman pregnant is forced to pay child support, even though he can not legally work!
I advise young men, if you do not wish to share your income with a woman for twenty+years, be discerning, selective, and treat yourself as someone of extreme value.
Remember, when the relationship ends, it is her hope that you will just go away.
Just go away. But don’t forget to send your child support check!
Otherwise, you may end up in jail. Or family court, which is almost the same.

May 10, 2008 - 7:10 pm 189. Felix:

I’m 47, and never married. I’ve watched almost every friend I’ve had go through the divorce mill, and well over half because of adulterous wives. My older brother had four kids with a woman who decided to change her sexual preference after fourteen years of hell, er, marriage. He divorced her after finding her in bed with her butch lover, and she proceeded to destroy him financially. She took his children, the house and got 73% of his income in child and spousal support.

Why haven’t I ever married? Simply, I don’t trust women, and I have no reason to trust women.

May 10, 2008 - 9:02 pm 190. Adri-from-Canada:

More comments …

Dear Azoreano,

Thank you so much for your kind sentiments. Unfortunately, I do not see my ex-husband as a sad creature … but simply a sad representation of the incipient programming that most of society has experienced from at least post-WWII to the present. My ex-husband’s father loved Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Sammy David Junior and the “Rat Pack’s” mentality of booze, enless partying, loose women, song and no responsibility. From this mentality (in part), spawned the mindset of the father, who then projected this mindset onto his son … “Live your life like there are no hooks up your a$$” is what he said to my now ex-husband on the evening of of marriage. That was my ex-father-in-law’s blessing to my ex-husband.

I suggest to you men out there who are not married – to not partake in an endless stream of bed mates before you do in fact settle down. Please, somehow, revitalise the idea of your looking for respectable women. Like my friends from the Muslim, Hindu and Sikh communities (and African Christian communities), search out your potential spouse’s family and check out the dynamics in that family. Find out the character of the people from whom a potential mate is descended. Like generally begets like. Gosh, I wish that I had figured this out when I was 18 years of age. But then again, at that time, no man would have me. Very intelligent, pretty and fit and church-going, I was a turn off for the contemporary men of the time. Thirty or so years later, my positive qualities are still a turn off – or at least an anomaly for men out there in the singles world. There are many women who are smart, good and moral people who will very likely never reproduce – because their virtues “turn off” the men who they meet.

It would be very uplifting to think that positive qualities in a female or a male – were once again considered virtues – not qualities to be laughed at and thought of as old-fashioned.

Gentlemen – I would also ask you to consider the fact that society seems to have been engineered to manifest from women staying at home and taking care of the husband, home and babies (remeber our parents or grandparetns “making it” and prospering quite very well on ONE INCOME? Well, with one income in the household, there is only one source of income tax. With women being co-opted into working … commencing in the 1940’s with “Rosie the Welder” (as WWII female “stand ins” to traditional male jobs while the boys were away at war) and thereafter with Germain Greer’s assertions and then Gloria Steinem’s Communistic diatribes et al, real wages declined and it now takes two incomes to barely “make it”. But now two-parent homes have the male and female both contributing to Federal and Provincial coffers through Income Tax.

God bless all of you men out there.

May 10, 2008 - 9:24 pm 191. Rick:

I used to sell drugs, and recently gave up the street life. When I was a street punk I had more women then I could handle, Now that I have an education and a head on my shoulders, I couldn’t find a decent woman if my life depended on it.

The women I would pick up, where very beautifull and successfull young women. Not street trash. I had career women cheat on their successfull fiance’s for me, the street punk. I’m not proud of that, thats why I changed.

It makes me sick to my stomach. When I was the bad boy, I had more relationship prospects then I could ever imagine. The worse I treated the women I was with, the more they loved me. As soon as I would show the smallest bit of love towards them, they would get repulsed and run away.

Now that (only a year later) I am educated with a promising career, and treating Women and myself with respect, I can’t find a decent woman. They all want the assholes. I don’t respect that, and can’t marry a woman that wants an asshole. I don’t know what to do. If they want to end up with the jerks then let them. I’ll wait untill i find a decent kind hearted girl, and try to not go bankrupt when she leaves me for some street thug

I want to get married, but can’t be the bad boy anymore. I guess I’ll have to wait till I’m older and established and find a decent younger lady before she is ruined by some asshole drug dealer.

May 10, 2008 - 10:15 pm 192. Jim:

I’m 62 and still psychologically decompressing from a divorce that occured 20 years ago. After the ex-wife, shyster lawyers, and corrupt judges (one got thrown in jail) got through with me I was broke!

It dawned on me that during my financial rape that I had worked for over 25 years and had nothing to show for it as the ex-wife and attorneys GOT IT ALL!!!!

Thank God I was able to re-coop all my financial loses and build my financial wealth back with a little bit of luck from the companys I worked for. I retired at age 56 with a very confortable monetary bank account and no bills.

If the LEECH and PSYCHO BITCH wife of mine hadn’t of dumped me and told her lawyer she wanted everything but me 20 years ago, I’d probably still be slaving away on that BITCH with no prospects of retiring until age 65 at best.

I didn’t know it at the time but she did me one hell of a favor by divorcing me. Speaking of Hell …. I didn’t know what kind of HELL I was in until I got to be alone and was able to see my relationship much clearly. IMHO when you’re living in HELL, you sometimes are unawares (or choose to be) because the slave master is cracking the whip so often.

Today, I see women as F’n LEECHES, LIERS, CON-ARTISTS and WORSE who will say and do ANYTHING in order to get a man to sign a MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE! Oh, and let’s not forget they are chasing after your sperm too! 18 years of child support can put a dent in your wallet too!

May 11, 2008 - 1:52 am 193. ProudPeter:

I am proud to be single, never married and 40. At my age, the fruits of this ‘lifestyle’ are finally ripening as my friends are now in less than enviable positions compared to me. I try not to rub it into my friends, but those strangers who question my choices are the ones I delight in exhibiting my various freedoms to.

This is such an incredibly large topic it is hard to know where to begin. A lot of these problems actually seem to stem from actually positive drives. Remember that the roots of modern feminism accomplished many great things but has, in my opinion, overreached itself – it is ok to be a woman, really. Women, since before we were a species (sorry, creationists), have been making things better for themselves and consequently for their offspring and have, in my view, made our species. I believe that it takes a woman of great enlightenment to hold back the millenia ingrained simple desire for ‘better’ that really has served its purpose almost entirely – women have arrived, the struggle is over and men (yes) have created paradise here on earth at womens’ behest.

I cannot hope to cover all the bases here, so I will relate my personal story:

I remember wanting to get married. I remember feeling good about paying for everything and thinking about providing for a wife. I was engaged to my dream woman for a year and just 2 months shy of our marriage date the military did a 180 and stationed me in a state that wasn’t her cup of tea. That was it and she backed out. I was still foolish enough to try to reason with her that it was just two years… Well, it let me step back and take a fresh look at women. Being in the military allowed an even more candid look as the number was about 15 men to one woman. Lots of cheating by wives during their husbands’ deployments, the use of marriage and pregnancy/abortion to simply get what they wanted.

I have genuinely come to the conclusion that women are incredibly selfish. I think that a large part of why this is so acceptable to our society is because of the connection between women and children. Cuturally, we tend to equate the idea of ‘what is good for her’ with ‘what is good for the children’ – this equation runs so deep she doesn’t even have to have children. Because of this, women do have permission to do as they please – what benefits them most, without any real regard to children. If a woman leaves a man or even cheats on him it is seen as ok because it is best for her – with the unspoken and largely unthought equation of that with what is best for the children. I often question whether a woman can actually commit to a man, and think that the ones that stick with one through imperfect times simply don’t have a better deal somewhere else.

This selfishness served its purpose better in the past than it does now. Womens’ behavior was much more limited in the past than it is now. I think it is time for women to realize that some of thier innate behavior nneds to be reigned in just as men have innate behaviors that need to be moderated.

——
Don’t forget about common-law marriages that require surprisingly short times in various states.

May 11, 2008 - 8:38 am 194. Jesi:

Don’t worry, there are still a few women like myself, that like to bake bread and feed thier men well…I do all the housework including laundry and still work 40+ hours a week! He keeps me busy golfing and four wheeling and I say we are both quite lucky, oh, and I love to play video games and my favorite movie is Sniper! Ask questions of the women that you seek out and perhaps you will find that she too wants what you want! Best wishes!

May 12, 2008 - 11:55 am 195. Botelho:

Oh Jesi,
Your missing the point. At least read some of the comments. Were are not worried…just not interested.

Nice try

May 12, 2008 - 7:10 pm 196. par:

I am really impressed by the responses to that hate baiter Hymowitz.

As per usual, some big mouth female feels self-absorbed and self-important enough to talk the line of the one-way street. Meaning, it is alright to disparage men to get attention but leave out the female side of this equation. I’ve witnesed this for a few decades now.

But the men who responded did so without spewing forth venom and hatred toward the big mouth.

So, let us thank feminism and the hordes of useful idiots that supported them for the strangulation of western culture. Doubt this? Just read the other finely written statements above this one to see that many agree that marriage is a bad deal for men and children.

I will not feel at all sorry for the aging females that supported feminism when they were young. You are going to be singled out as being the main cause of western society’s destruction when people finally smarten up and reveal all of what feminism perpetrated on all of us and the next two generations. For one, I will not come to the aid and defense of the feminist when the old liberals and feminists currently supporting the staus quo in govenment, the ones that shaped laws and policies, retire from their positions of management and administration. The sooner, though we can route these snakes from their posts the better.

May 13, 2008 - 5:29 pm 197. Corey:

“What’s your take? Do you think today’s single young men are “child-men in the promised land,” or rational adults who are turning to video games and alternative lifestyles because those are more rewarding activities?”

Niether. I’ve known plenty of single young men that long for a loving, fulfilling marriage to a single young woman. Unfortunately, the kind of woman they require to fulfill this desire (modest, chaste, faithful, and committal) are a dying breed in North America.

The more girls lose their v-card at 11 through 13 years old… The more they screw around… The more they flash their goodies on Girls Gone Wild… in the bars… etc…

The more enticing video games, football, exploding toilets, and porn become.

One in ten children born to couples in North America will not be the male half’s child.

THAT’S why we’d rather be distracted than married.

May 14, 2008 - 12:22 am 198. Charybdis:

At 18, I aspired to eventually be June Cleaver. I worked my way through college, alone and graduated with no student loans. Got married afterwards to a man 7 years my senior with a good job, home and car. I wanted to be the perfect wife. Figured I’d work awhile, have kids, stay home and take care of my family. Oh yes, I tried hard to be a perfect lover doing everything for my husband.

I wasn’t good enough. Although my husband made good money, we had no food. He wouldn’t allow me any money to shop with. In our beautiful home we slept on sleeping bags because he would not buy a bed. He complained everyday that I was lazy and ordered me to get a job. I secured a professional position. I cooked, cleaned, and worked fulltime. He refused to have sex with me because I was so overweight it made him sick. (I weighed 135 lbs). I stayed with him another 8 years. On year 7, we had sex one time, my birthday. I became pregnant with my son. When my son was 4, he threw me out. The court gave him everything. I pay him $600/mo in child support. I was naive when I married him. He is a pedophile and that’s why he stopped sleeping with me. He actively dated teenagers even raping some while I was at work. But he is still free. I am still ordered to pay him child support even though he kicked my son out last year at age 16. So men aren’t the only ones that get screwed. I guess I am the payback for all you unhappy men. All I’ve wanted was to please a man and I love sex. My current husband is ill and has been impotent for 8 years. 20 years of marriage and no sex for me. Very ironic, what I wanted most from marriage, I can’t have.

May 14, 2008 - 12:25 am 199. Robert:

So, Charybdis,
Let me get this straight. You worked your way through college with no financial aid. Afterward you got married and worked, cooked and cleaned but had no food and no bed to sleep in. You had sex with your husband once in 7 years and became pregnant. Four years later he “threw” you out. The court gave him “everything” even though he is a pedophile and that’s why he stopped “sleeping” with you. You love sex but your current husband is impotent.
Something smells fishy here. I think you are cherrypicking this scenario to make yourself the total victim. Something many women are good at. Sorry but I’m one guy who’s not buying your total victimhood.

May 14, 2008 - 2:15 pm 200. Botelho:

I agree with Robert. Women are notorious for making false accusations. It is extremly hard to believe them now-a-days unless your the system. It prefers to believe a lie rather than the truth. A sign of corruption.

May 14, 2008 - 7:26 pm 201. Northerner:

This discussion was a real eye opener for me.

I was raised by a self-centered, psycho bitch who thought that constant physical, verbal and emotional abuse of small children (she only stopped the physical stuff when we got old enough to fight back) was OK.

She never worked outside the home, was rarely home, had a maid and was lauded by the community for her “wonderful” and “kindly” ways because of the facade she was able to put on. She made my father’s life so miserable, I think he was happy to die when his time came just to get away from her.

And yet, in spite of this, I have always put women on a pedestal and would have gotten married in a second had I ever had the opportunity. And I tried. Hard.

I was (and still am) honest, loyal, hard working, communicate well, care about and LISTEN to people. And though it took a long time, I’m also financially successful too.

Didn’t matter. In every male-female deal, I got the very short end of the stick.

Last year, I ended an 18 year relationship (no kids, no marriage) and have felt – and been treated like – the “bad guy” for leaving. (Even though there was no paper and no kids, I “left her” very well off.)

After a year now of having my balls busted by this person with her endless post-relationship craziness and seeing that she is completely immature and unable to deal with life emotionally on her own, I’m horrified that:

a) I spent so much time with this person (though she does have some good personal qualities) and

b) I actually thought for all these years, that *I* was the problem.

I’m by no means perfect, but now that I’ve had a year to clear my head, I realize how thoroughly manipulated I was and how my deeply-seated feeling of being “bad” (a bequest of my mother and society at large, including the idiot who wrote the column we are all commenting on) made it so easy for me to be conned.

But all’s well that ends well.

I’m 48, in incredible shape, and – amazing to me after years of poverty, hard work and struggle – a multi-millionaire (OK, it’s only two million, but let me brag a little.)

I spend my free time – of which I have a good amount – giving money and time to community causes.

I used to feel TERRIBLE that I didn’t have a real marriage and didn’t have children. All these years, I had assumed that the fault was 100% with me. It never occurred to me there could have been any other factor.

If I was at fault, it was that I didn’t know my own worth (kind of hard to do in an environment where you are denigrated constantly) and didn’t have the smarts to know that there are “exceptions to the rule” and I should have held out for better.

Up until my 18 year long pairing I had been with lots of women. Most treated me very badly, irrationally so and my heart was crushed more times than I care to count.

Now looking back, there is not one of them, not ONE, that I would want to be paired up with, let alone be obligated to spend more than ten minutes with.

And, yes, they all just LOVED the bad boys until they felt like settling down and then they went for the steady guys with money. How noble of them…

The sex drive is strong and the drive to be part of a family is strong. Lay those two things over a propaganda system that tells you how “bad” you are, throw in some pathological parents, and you’ve got a recipe for misery.

But again, all’s well that ends well. This year has been a real eye opener for me and this dialog has chrystalized a lot of things that I just wasn’t able to sort out alone.

Thanks to everyone who posted.

I’m disinclined to lay all the blame on society (though I agree “society” has become a total sewer) and I’m also disinclined to lay blame on “women.”

Every individual is different and I now realize there may be some women out there who are like me and share my values and might even have the capacity to treat me as well as I am naturally inclined to treat them.

Maybe I’ll meet one, maybe I won’t, but I’m done with worshipping at the altar of womanhood and accepting crap just because the person dishing it out was born in a female body.

Bottom line as far as this topic is concerned:

I didn’t get married (thank god) because nearly every young woman I encountered romantically in my young life was damaged goods and behaved like a swine – and luckily for me, found me “boring” because I wasn’t a Bad Boy.

I have no plans or desires to be married, but I’m not against it if the right person comes along. Now after 48 years, I finally have a glimmer of a clue of what kind of person that might be.

By the way, I hate video games and prefer drama to action films, though I love martial arts and shooting guns with my buddies. I also like talking to and listening to women.

Go figure.

May 15, 2008 - 5:41 am 202. Rod:

The reason women can’t find a “decent” man to marry is because they are hyperamous. Meaning: They generally marry up the ladder in society or cultural status. If a girl is 22 and has just graduated from college with her Bachelor’s degree and is looking to get married, she would never marry a guy who has just a High School Diploma. And if she is 25 and has a Master’s degree, she wants the guy to at least have a master’s or preferably a P.H.D. So it’s not that men are afraid of women who are “smart” or educated ( although there is good reason for this )it’s that the more educated a woman is the less available men there are in the pool for them to choose from. It’s there own fault.

It’s biological. Females want to be able to respect and look up to a man. Since the beginning of recorded human history it was always this way. Until recently because of second wave feminism (1960’s). The female would leave the protection of her father and her new husband would take his place. Providing for her and protecting her and making a respectable women out of her while she was still at a young age. Before she was corrupted by the outside world (man’s world). It was not uncommon at all for the man to have already done a 4 year tour in the military or college and been sowing his oats for a few years after, before settling down with a wife at age 23-28.She was much younger, maybe 16-19 years of age. It fit and was suitable. Why would a 17-18 year old girl want to settle down with a 17 year old boy? At 17-18 a girl is ready to start a family and to please and take care of her husband. But a boy at 17 is not. Heis still many years from being able to pick up where her father left off and be a husband and a father.

This hypergamous relationship works and is natural. But because of feminism it has destroyed this. There are not enough men for these so called “educated” women to marry. Even if she has a bachelors degree and teaches school and makes a salary of $35,000, she will not want to marry a man who is a high school grad who is a welder or pipefitter. Even if his salary is $60,000. Because he is not higher on the social scale than her. He is considered by her to be less than her.
So any woman who get’s a master’s of PHD is just basically eliminating 99% of the prospective men from her life, by her own standards, not his.

May 15, 2008 - 9:42 am 203. Rod:

In addition: For proof just look at the facts. Nurses marry doctors. They don’t marry the orderly that changes the bed sheets and empties the bed pan. But in reverse let’s look at men. Many sucessful business men, highly educated, lawyers,doctors, etc..will marry their secretary, nurse, or hell even a cocktail waitress. Or a girl who has no job at all. Because she is good looking and has a nice body.
You would never see in a million years hardly a woman lawyer or CEO marry a ditch digger. Oh I know there are a few cases such as Joan Collins marrying a younger guy that had no career in acting as she, but they are rae exceptions and not the rule.
Is it hypergamy or is it Narcicism? Or outright manipulation and gold digging? Using coquetry and subterfuge

May 15, 2008 - 9:59 am 204. daniel:

In a nutshell, men do not want to get married because he then becomes ‘responsible’ for the woman’s happiness, care, shelter and children. That is why traditionally women take the man’s name, as an indication of ‘who’ is responsible. She, however, is still responsible for nothing. She doesn’t have to cook, provide love or sex, or even take care of the children. Why is all this possible? BEACAUSE WOMEN ARE SEEN AS BEING SUPERIOR TO MEN AND MORE IMPORTANT THAN MEN! This is the reason!

May 17, 2008 - 8:52 am 205. Pacheco:

The turmoil facing both sexes was by design. They are the elite illuninati that now controls human society. They are the Central Bank Cartel. America is the used engine to finally bring about what they have always desired-a Global world government ruled by them in a system similar to Marxism communism. Therefore, the break-up of marriage and family is essential. Their God is Lucifer as rituals to him are human blood sacrifices,pedophilia,torture,brainswashing etc. They control the Federal treasure Reserves, the presidents,Politicians, Government institutions such as CIA,Courts, Judges, Public school system,Universities. Publications, Mainstream media, Music Productions, Film productions, Hollywood. The idea is to brainwash society with a great big lie. To cause confusion and the brainwashing of our young is a must. To emasculate boys and masculate girls is a top priority. Just look at the way boys are being treated by radical feminism in the schools. Also men are being treated in the radical feminist family courts. Boys are dropping out like flies because they simply hate the system and those that rule over them. Their true nature is under attack. At home they are being raised by single mothers without the male model that will nurture the lovely quality of masculinity. The girls special quality of feminity too is being destroyed. It is all by design by the elites Luciferian laws. Anything that opposes God’s true nature or designed creation must be implimented. After all, Lucifer is the oppossite of God’s character…a bitter opposite rival.
The founder of the illuminati back in the early 1700, a German professor, had written that the culture of society must be poisined by using the female as the patsy. Inclination,vanity,sensuality and curiosity as a formula implimanted their character that must be brought forth in a women’s movement.
The first wave of this movement started in the 1920’s by a mister Rockefeller-a high member of the illuminati. It was funded by the Rockefeller Fund Foundation.The reason was to place women in the work force. Less then 50 percent of the population was paying taxes to the government(truth is the money is actually going to the Central Bank Cartels located in London, England). More tax money was wanted. well women had to fill in those jobs men couldn’t possibly do because they were at war so you say. Truth is, these few elite (the true world powers) caused these wars for personal purpose. They were never by chance, they were created by designed. Secondly, it would allow children to enter schools at an earlier age so that the brainwashing could get underway. The second wave of feminism was to take a more radical stand. The CIA hand picked an emotional wrecked woman(a men hater who happened to be part of a communist organization for 20 years and a radical activist for this group) to begin the next stage of psychological warfare on mankind- Radical Feminism. The reason is simple, to destroy marriage and the traditional role of a father,mother children relationship designed by God. The family unit must be destroyed!! God’s infuence on society must be eliminated, the Luciferian culture must be put in place. A one world goverment ruled by a hateful luciferian worshipper elite group. The Christian society and men are obsticles in their path. To oppress them, weaken them is a must. That is why they are penetrating the Vatican, Evengilical churches and males through secondary public schools, universities, family courts and so on. Satan is so brilliantly clever, he knows that to destroy the enemy is to enter the roots of a healthy place. Enter these places and take power positions in the Vatican, Evengelical churches, family homes with their controlled telivision programs,brainwashed feminist wives and mothers under the protection of the family courts controlled by the few Elite and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. Christians and men are slowly being destroyed. The path to world domination is being cleared. They will succeed for a period. The biblical book of Revelation is soon to take place. A one world government and the one and only (Satan/Antichrist) placed in his throne. Time is running out for Satan and he knows it. He is well aware of the last days. He knows God will judge him. He knows he will be defeated. Still that won’t stop him because he is out of control. His hatred for God and the love of his creation is immense. His fury cannot be described with human words. To understand it, one must see the results of his deeds in the past and future to come. Still it does not describe him fully since God has withheld the extenct of his evil.
Ladies, don’t be flattered by the power of feminism. You are not the rulers of your domain. The simple truth is that you are nothing but a patsy unkowningly controlled by a few elite men. You are nothing but a useful tool that will ultimatelly dig your own grave. When your evil deed has seved it’s purpose, you will be brushed aside like used tramps. The illuminati has done this in the past. The used the freemasons to organize and play a big role in the French revolution. When they successfully succeeded, half of them were executed. They couldn’t believe it. The elite used the freemasons to cause the Russian revolution to overthrough their King. Once successful, every freemason that was not a Jew were executed along with their wives and children. Once they have the world to themselves and their leader, the Antichrist on the throne as described in the book of Revelation, your service will no longer be needed. The special perks you now get will be something of the past. you will be treated like the rest such as men..like shit. If you resist they will be more then glad to deal with you. Remember, Satan’s evil and hatred has no boundaries, no end in site. He is thirsty for human blood. He thrives in human misery and suffering. He has the secret societies such as the illuminati, skull and bones(George Bush Jr.and sr.,John kerry are members)the bildebergers and so on do his dirty work. They are his human foot soldiers doing his bid. They will have world domination for seven years. Destruction like never before is the result. Man’s rule will end in the battle of armagedon. Antichrist will gather the world’s armies in that final battle field to meet a coming Christ and his saints. The true pupose of this battle is to fight Christ/God. He will whisper to the enemy, “die”. So it will be done-they die.
Nonetheless, the few elite are cleverly brilliant. They turned women agains’t men. To hate them, despise them, ridicule them. All done through the machine of manipulation and propaganda for selfish gain. The same men that shed blood in the battlefields for their freedoms, worked in high risk jobs every day to the point of death just to feed their families and put a roof over their heads. They were the inventors of the revolution of advanced technologies that you now enjoy. They are responsible for your comforts and protection. Instead of an appreciation for their human sacrifice, you stab them in the back with a dagger.

“were women to “unsex” themselves by claiming equality with men, they would become the most hateful,hethean,and disgusting of beings, and would surely perish without male protection”.
QUEEN VICTORIA,1870.

Precisely. The illuminati new it would lead to that. Many men since childhood have been emasculated. Their former intincts have been polluted. What men would want to sacrifice their lives for these women of our society. Told you, the illuminati are brilliantly clever. It is now getting closer for a world control one world government. A phony world food crisis, high oil prices with phony explanations, fund terrorist organizations (their tool such as is feminism) to bring about national security. An excuse to control every movement of a human being. Soon a microchip planted in every one. Hunger, deteorating economies, violence for survival. It will make the great depression of the 30’s feel like a picnic. Martial Law will take affect with the result of millions will die in the hands of a secret trained army (made up of many hard core criminals) of the elite. After much human suffering and confusion, them that caused it will come out of their secret places and bring calmity. You know the rest. It is all by design. They are absolutely brilliant. Problem is, they have sold their souls to the devil. So has/will multitudes of the average being.

Good luck to you all. Men and women alike.

May 17, 2008 - 10:49 am 206. Slim:

In response to the previous poster, Pacheco, I would like to say that my previous worldview of marriage was blown to bits by; Family Court, Judges, Lawyers, and my wife!

Maybe Pacheco is dead on point, however my life was turned upside down by a simple act of my wife, telling her attorney that “she wanted EVERYHING but me”.

Rather than getting into the particulars of the whole discusting process I would like to proclaim that my life in the here and now is so much fulfilling, as I’m alive and enjoying life rather than hardly existing in a horrible experiment gone awray.

Women talk about love and commitment, but it’s really all about THE MONEY. The greatest bait and switch tactic ever conceived by women, is when they try and make us believe they love us for who we are! They then proceed to try and change us and go after what they’re really after ….. M O N E Y.

I watched my ‘born again’ wife lie like the devil in her attempt to steal as much money from me as possible during the divorce proceedings. And the judge sided with her.

My neighbor keeps sending me these signals that’s she interested in love, sex and marriage. I listen a lot and proceed to prod her into finding the right man at the local church.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! Our cry is becoming legion!

May 17, 2008 - 8:44 pm 207. There’s some lovely muck down here « UnCoupled:

[...] some lovely muck down here Posted May 19, 2008 This piece entitled ‘Single men in never-neverland’ bangs on about the way that men in their 20s [...]

May 19, 2008 - 3:19 am 208. Miguel:

A woman’s innerbeing make-up is delicately emotional. In a disturbed society such as ours their inner being is being tampered with in the schools,magazines,books,movies,soap operas,Oprah etc. Feminity is not being nurtured, rather masculanity is promoted into their being in secondary schools and Universities by the radical feminist system. The result is your out-of-wack,brainwashed emotionaly disturbed women. It is like placing arsenic in a glass of pure water. Poisoned!! They become irrational,bossy, selfish, self centered, self righteous,Naggs,never satisfied,etc. Their perks of the past is wanting without the responsibility that comes with it. The special perks they now receive are usually at the expense of men.
It is a proven fact if one has all the power on their side, corruption is inevitable. Women have this in marriage/relationships. They can be absolutely abusive, unfaithful, irresponsible in all areas in a relationship, where as men can be the complete opposite and yet is powerless in a corrupt family court system. There is no question a man is oppressed. The no-fault divorce is for women..a farce. He loses his children, home, finances, is falsely accused and she is automatically believed, he may never see his children again if she chooses. Sure the law permits him to see the child, but the law is never enforced. Does anyone expect justice in a corrupt system? It is compared to a Maxism Communist system. Advocates, politicians, laws, judges, lawyers,employees in the system are wicked demons. There is no logic in the system unless it is by design to serve an evil purpose.
I’ve had women wanting relationships with me. The latest was one with a child. I told her straight-up why it will never happen. I know most women too much and about the system. If i was to marry her, chances are she will initiate a divorce and i end-up paying child support for a child that isn’t mine and alignmony to her. I recall feeling for her with contempt as the comment up above by Queen victoria. That is how i feel everytime a woman initiates a relationship. Let’s consider according to many reliable sources and statistics have it that women initiate 2 of 3 thirds of marriages and divorces. It is no wonder. It is true that they now say marriage is legalized prostitution.
I don’t want to hear this crap that by finding a good women all this is avoided. Truth is multitudes of them are culprids. Ones character is only tested when in the heat of battle. In most cases they fail their responsibility because they know they can. The system will not allow them to lose but to gain at all cost.
Men, queen Victoria has a point. Women are not worthy partners. They cannot be trusted. You are better off alone. Even the author of the article ( a woman..figures ) that lead to these many comments cannot see the obvious. She is an ignorant blind fool. It is all about them….no logic, responsibility nor justice.

May 19, 2008 - 8:48 am 209. Miguel:

Another point, according to reliable statistics 70 percent of women cheat on their spouses and them that haven’t just haven’t had the opportunity…pretty sure they fantasize about it often.

May 19, 2008 - 8:57 am 210. Mark Ruffolo:

America is the world leader in divorce, where women initiate about 75% of all divorces.

In an American divorce, though the guy is legally innocent, he will lose his children, eighteen (18) years of income, property, and certain liberties.

Today a man is a fool to marry with a feminist (man bad, woman worshipped) government making the rules.

May 20, 2008 - 9:56 am 211. alex:

The best place to look to witness the misery of being a married man today is at supermarkets, walk near couples just to lend an ear and see the husbands get put down every now and then EVERY single time you overhear different couples, young or older. Like some said, physical strength is not needed much today, men all have a fighter inside, in the past women respected men because in those times fighting and indulging prevailed over talking and psychology. In another article, the author said, talking about his son, that feminists act as if they don’t need sex and that they are doing men a favor by indulging in. Feminists often remind that all the people incarcerated for raping are men, and i tell these hypocrites that it is only for mechanical reasons that it is not the same way around. If men were naturally constantly in erection by default, I GUARANTEE there would be men raping. The majority of women today own a sexual toy, the enormous market of sexual toys for women tells says what they don’t want to admit: They like sex and they need it like we do. Men would appear more noble If they weren’t so eager or impatient about sex, it is exactly like showing a weakness to someone who is already seeking to be in a position of power to make up for some fantacised clash between men and women, when they were always complementary to each other throughout history. I know it is redundant, but modern life is all around safer, boring and manufactured. Freedom is reduced to desire and desire is reduced to the act of buying. I love women so much that i hate them for being the today’s useful idiots of the commercial culture. I often hear indirectly this slogan in the media: The woman is the future of men. I don’t say it is not true, but i ask: who said that? and when was it said? I think that by being a wife at home, women escaped the sphere of consumption and there was a need to put them into the circuit of industrial consumerism. Work is no longer a right for women, it is an obligation, like men because raising children is not recognized as ‘work’ by society, and when she ‘retires’ she has no benefits. Considering the miserable salary women often get, they would probably get more joy, self accomplishment from raising kids instead of working for an alienating company like we men do. I am also sure that the direst of feminists must hate having their period because it reminds them every month they are here to have children and that it is their biologic purpose. It is like they are lost, they follow trends and parrot out slogans directly from the medias’ streams, which by the way, couldn’t care less about them other than their spending habits; then to make things worse, you have these flocks of men who would rather put away their pride to have a little sex than otherwise; i don’t say it is better to ignore each other, but if that was the case, at least some serious discusions would arise instead of the occasional rant from men and women against their counterpart. The few interventions will never outweight the behavior of certain men that make the feminist domination possible. There are still very few women out there who are truly against feminists, and that have understood that a tv journalist didn’t have to come with a light t-shirt and shorts to show he has pectorals or biceps to be hired, and that most feminists still abide by the sexist beauty criteria of modern society, which is paradoxal to the core of their fake fight. There is nudity everywhere in our society, and there have never been so much solitude and frustration. But, there are too few of these real and true to themselves women for me to have the privilege of meeting one. Less and less men go towards women because the feminists’ constant whining have ‘castrated’ them with predefined slogans of them being dirty pigs by default. You talk to a woman in a club, and even if you are a smooth, seasoned talker, you will get the occasional threat, such as her calling her lawyer at the slightest word. Compared to the 90’s, for me nightclubs have gotten so boring; another example, in the past i complimented a girl on the streets and she would smile back at me, now they make these hard faces like they are top models, as if to say ‘i’m out of your league’. These women are very bad actresses because it shows that they are only submissive of the canons of magazines, and if it wasn’t for all the idiots using exclusively their penis’ heads instead of their brains alongside, which is how these mindless women see men from listening to too much debilitating shows and feminist propaganda, this kind of women would get no more solliciting ever, and realizing that, they would cut the bullshit and act normal again. I used to be so loving towards women, i had so many good experiences and have so many good memories, i can’t pinpoint when everything started going astray, iused to date a lot until the late 90’s. I have always idolized women, and now they treat me as a threat and a , and worse i can’t trust them anymore, i have been single for over 11 YEARS, thanks to these frigid feminists. That is my way of telling them: See? i may hold out longer than you. My loss maybe, but i couldn’t care less. I even ask myself if i have not become misogynist. In the end, like the author said at some point, women are sexual creatures and they need love, i will never be convinced that feminists are happy, that is the most painful thing for me. I might end up without a wife and kids.

May 20, 2008 - 10:18 pm 212. Robert:

Why is it that men who stay single “run from commitment”, while women who do the same are simply exercising their feminist rights? This entire subject is loaded against men from word one. The premise is always that men are the problem, as defined by women. But women are virtually perfect, no matter what. Women who suffer are victims, while men who suffer deserve it. To say there is a double standard here is an understated understatement.

May 22, 2008 - 4:14 pm 213. Lucifer:

What we are seeing here is nothing less than the demise of Western Civilization.

I loved the old books from the 19th and early 20th centuries. They spelled out what it meant to be a “Man” or a woman.

Even in the 1960’s there were still positive roll models. “Daniel Boon”, “The Waltons”, “Little House on the Prairie” etc.

Did you know that the birth rate in every Western country is below the replacement level?

Never mind. Because of immigration from third world countries Americans, Dutch, English, Irish people will be a minority in their own countries by 2050.

Then (as someone pointed out) Sharia law will kick in and women will really get something to think about.

May 23, 2008 - 6:40 am 214. lynn:

ok! you men who have decided to stay away from marriage or ‘relationships’ : all I can say is that there are some women out there who do appreciate a man standing up for himself and making his boundaries clear… what he wants from a relationship … how much time together or not … how much sex and in what form it takes… A man strong enough to be totally honest about his position, his wants, his expectations, his needs, his beliefs. Its time to be strong, unafraid not bitter. Men and women can listen to one another but retain their differences, have a life together but not smother each other. Surely we are here to keep each other on our toes as well as sooth each others souls. Its not very exciting otherwise.

There are some women out there, like myself, who really love men and sex and appreciate a man who stands up for himself… these are the men we respect and ultimately adore: and want to have lots of passionate deep sex with. I often remember my father, who was a quiet gentle man, never ever let my mother lecture or walk all over him. If she crossed the line he would just stand still, feet firmly planted on the ground and give her a firm straight look and say No. She would always back off. She loved and respected him always. What I hate to see is when a man calls his spouse/partner ‘the boss’. Makes me feel sick to the stomach.

May 23, 2008 - 9:08 pm 215. par:

Yes, Lynn.

Aren’t you missing something from your posting?

For quite a while I have noticed that when a discussion about gender (sex), roles of each gender, faults of each gender, etc., etc. are displayed over any media (pick one, any one) one gender is usually taken to task and the other not. The same is somewhat evident from the posting above.

Lynn hates to see when a man calls his spouse/partner the boss and that this makes her sick to her stomach. Interestingly enough “Lynn”
handily overlooks the very behaviour of thousands and thousands of women who, over the years, have worked together to form lobbies to pass laws to favour themselves proven inimical to men, children and the rest of society. Many laws have been set up so that many women are calling the shots in the home and many men are left with little legal recourse. When some men speak up countless actions can be called upon to roll over his position in the home. Don’t you know this yet? Did you not read the many previous letters?

But Lynn will not even go there. Instead, she takes the easy way out, as with millions of others too afraid to confront a female over C.S. (female B.S) and non-sense, and will not even consider that it has been the actions of countless women who have helped shape the way things are today: men fleeing from marriage for the obvious and the letters above state these reasons.

What Lynn, are you going to do to restore some sense? Are you going to use your energy spent in
tirade over weak men and shift it to force the feminist juggernaut out of existance so men can feel that their time spent in a current legally one-sided against the man rip-off will end? I doubt it.

I’ve seen enough of the avoid -the -faults- of- the- female over the years. I’ve also noticed that it is mostly the female who practices this avoidance. The men are just as bad; coming- to -the -rescue -of- the -poor- damsel- in- distress (so they can get laid or because they have been taught from a young age to “respect” females and who aren’t quite aware enough to realize that they are left out of the respect margin). So, nothing will change when there are thousands, millions maybe, of men and women who may believe that females of all ages are not to be held culpable for their actions.

Let us see if the huge collective feminine ego can withstand due criticism. This has been missing from social discourse for a long, long time.

If it is a natural state that every person protects the female yet holds the man accountable for everything then here is another reason why men just can not be bothered to mingle with the opposite sex with a solid commitment today. The deck is stacked against men, Lynn, and you refuse to acknowledge this. Instead you make lame comments over weak men, reminiscing about daddy (who lived in another era) and, let us not forget – yourself. Men have their children, incomes, homes and freedoms torn from them and your answer to the topic is about how sick to your stomach you feel. Nice try, but I’m not buying it. There are many women like you out there and many men don’t need you, either.

May 24, 2008 - 1:25 pm 216. Lawrence:

I’ve read these articles and to be blunt “They are bullshit.” It’s simple men don’t marry as soon as they did before because one: More men are catching on to how the system is against them in every way. This system is not fair to men at all. And Two: There is nothing in it for men to marry. Theres everthing in it for kids and women, nothing for men. Close relationships, sex, food, kids (adoption) and everything else a man can get without this business contract called marriage. The more men figure this out and relay it to their sons there will be even less men getting married. Dr. Helen think about my statement: THERE IS NOTHING IN IT FOR MEN TO MARRY IN THIS SYSTEM AS IT IS TODAY. Thank you for taking time to read this..

Lawrence 562 480 4778

May 26, 2008 - 5:51 pm 217. Doug:

Very simply men don’t need to get married. I am one of those men. I am 12 years divorced, MBA, own two thriving businesses for 11 years and just finished my child support responsibilities this month (one child only). If you really want to know why men like myself won’t marry go to http://www.nomarriage.com and http://www.americanwomensuck.com (the forum part) and it will be all there. Lastly, for me, besides the obvious of alimony and child support in divorces I won’t remarry because women give out sex like candy and if I want a companion I will get a dog! Cheers. Doug

May 28, 2008 - 8:52 am 218. Taras:

Ever since I was a teenager, I found the opposite sex was drawn to bad boys like flies on spilled sewage. To make matters worse, as a child I was well aware of the dark side of women, thanks to my stepmother. In all of my adult life, I have met one promiscuous slut after another, mental basket case, man-hating feminist, et al. When women wanted anything to do with me, it was because of my money and not me as a person. I was married once, until I found out how she was betraying and worse yet endangering me for her own selfish agenda. I divorced her and walked out on her and her kids by a previous marriage. Marriage is all risk and zero benefit to men. It’s devolved into a means for the state and women to defraud men of their assets and future earnings. I will never marry again, at least in any western country. Soon I will be too old for any woman to look at me anyway, for real companionship I have my cats. They at least appreciate me whereas women do not.

Taras

May 28, 2008 - 4:09 pm 219. Dave:

Lynn,

From your posting, you say you have a lot of positive qualities. Good for you. Regardless of the qualities you have, any man who would give you control over his wealth, assuming he has some, is gambling. Your great qualities notwithstanding. Men who marry a woman who can divorce them and take half of their assets if she gets ‘bored’ deserve what happens to them.

Your best chance of ‘finding love’ is to pursue a poor man who will marry for love because he has little else to offer. That man will give you a chance because there’s no risk for him. Other men would have to be insane to put what wealth they’ve accumulated into your hands via a divorce court should your moods change once you walk down the aisle.

We’ll see if you’re really into it ‘for love’.

May 28, 2008 - 7:27 pm 220. Lisa in Texas:

If men & women could return to their traditional roles, everything would return to pre-feminazi normal. Families would stick together, more sex would be had, houses would be cleaner, both men & women would both be happier, the divorce rate would plummet.

Women have to understand it is their natural instinct to be in a domestic role, to want children & to create a family. Men have to understand their natural instinct is to protect & provide for their physically weaker loved ones. Neither person in a marriage can do both or the relationship falls apart, no matter how many “talks” occur. Men need the love of a woman & women need the protection & strength of a man. The best scenario is with the man being the sole financial earner & the woman being in the home, keeping everything clean & healthy, in order & safe for babies.

Men & women cannot expect anything rewarding from each other until these roles are established & fulfilled. Unfortunately, for too many these truths are tough pills to swallow.

May 30, 2008 - 9:12 pm 221. Glenn:

Well, it sure is nice to sit back and watch the fireworks. Men, for the most part, have it figured out. American females? Not so much. The problem we have here is, this is not a zero sum game. Even if an American female suddenly decides to “take her place” and behave in a feminine fashion…guess what? There are millions of foreign girls that are not just “getting started” as are the clumsy girls in America. These foreign ladies are far advanced in the feminine ways and wiles. My wife is a perfect example. Blonde hair, blue eyes, speaks 3 languages, cooks and cleans and looks damn good doing it. Best part is, shes 10 years younger then me. So to all you American females that have spent the last 40 years picking the lint from your chubby navels, I say this. The Russian ladies are coming, the Latina girls are coming, the Ukrainian girls are coming. And guess what American females…they all got you outgunned and outclassed.

May 31, 2008 - 2:07 am 222. Stephen:

I’m 28, been in a few relationships, but will probably not marry for at least 10 years if at all. The deck is stacked against you guys.

The only benefit of marriage is to the woman. Sign over half your stuff (if you have no prenup) and be prepared to pay alimony if it lasts more than a year (depending on your state laws).

What other situation pays someone for a failed relationship? I’m in California, where there’s no fault divorce.

I see my sister looking at bridal magazines, bridezilla shows and the general acceptance of blowing $25,000 on a party.

I’m happier single, not answering to anyone.

Anyways, I also don’t want a fat wife. Sorry to be so blunt. But I had to say it. Most American women are fat by age 40. I said most, not all. It’s like so many women just let themselves go after they get married. They chop off the hair, wear sweat pants and put on about 30-40 lbs.

I’ll wait, find someone about 10-15 years younger than me 10 years from now and see where it goes. Hopefully foreign too. A lot of this marriage strike has to do with the bad attitude of American women. The demanding and expectations need to change, otherwise many women will find themselves single for life.

Seems to be a much bigger deal for a woman than man to stay single longer.

Jun 3, 2008 - 7:39 am 223. Mark:

I agree fellow men,

The time has come to make the change. The current generation of women are bad, and will become worse. The current feminist agenda is in full swing and it will not be stopped. But there is hope. We are men; we are powerful; we decide with our penis who will bear the children of the future. We are powerful in our western countries should we choose to be single. The beautiful women in our dreams are waiting in foreign countries for us. They appreciate real men. Let us save up and then adventure to our new land where we will sow our seeds, and leave this troubled land forever.

Jun 5, 2008 - 12:23 am 224. Braxton:

There is a fantastic essay out there on the web entitled “Whay Marriage Has Become a Raw Deal For Men” that lays out in explicit detail exactly (from financial and other aspects)what lousy deal marriage is for men. There is also a great website – http://www.nomarriage.com that also lays this out. If this type of information was widely available (before the internet age) I would have made a business decision not get married. It would be great if some of the various problems men have with marriage and american women could be aired on Oprah and throw in a few good looking wealthy men (doctors, successful businessmen etc.) openly state that because of the attitude of most American women they are not getting married. American women need to know that even modestly successful men are going to either stay single or find foreign wives rather than deal with American women and their lousy attitudes.

Jun 5, 2008 - 10:53 am 225. Drew:

Historical societies shunned single men because they were deemed to be less ’stable’ than married men. I am not bashing religion, but this was mainly due to the church. Single men were not pressured by their wife to support the church financially, or to have children which would provide a new generation of followers. Ever wonder why you get married in a church? Ever wonder why religion is involved at all? Look it up, if it doesn’t make you sick, there’s something wrong with you.

Jun 6, 2008 - 10:45 pm 226. Drew:

Forgive my forthrightness and language but; It used to be that for men the thought of having sex on a regular basis with the woman of his deams was worth the price of marriage (slaving away for the wife and children)

Today, the thought of Divorce Litigation, especially with children envolvement, has made that errect penis limp and fearful; at the thought of paying off attorneys, Alimony, Alimony pending Litigation, Equitable Distribution (only if you’re a woman), Loss of seeing your flesh and blood more than twice a week (while ex-wife’s boyfriend/husband see them 95% of the time),

Let’s not forget that the man gets to lose almost everything he’s worked for during and after the Divorce Process.

Welcome to the world created by Feminists, Lawyers, Judges, and Legislators all in the name of fairness.

Marriage/Divorce is the best way for women to obtain wealth legally without the need to work for it. The law even permits her to have almost all of the custody time with the children.

Fathers Day to the Divorced Father at least makes the real father sometimes believes he was the father to his children for at least one day of the year.

As I look back at the hell hole I was involved in for about 15 years, I came to believe that all my wife was interested in was the cum and the cash. Please forgive my bluntness, but to the buyer beware.

Marriage …… tody’s new hell hole for the unaware’s man!

Jun 16, 2008 - 7:55 am 227. Jamu:

I have really enjoyed reading this article and have learned a lot from it- I think one of the facts about life is that there has always been a gold rush, remember the way people braved so many dangers even their own lives to get the gold when they finally got there what did they find Nothing! Well marriage is one of those things they promise you paradise on earth, but when you get there you get the shock of your life it was all a set up or a mirage. The kiddish doctrine of and they lived happily ever after is simply a way of getting you guys shackled for life-(and pay a womans way in life). Actually the truth about marriage is that only one group of people who gain from it is the future generation (no wonder I fear for the comming generation) there is absolutely nothing in it for you guys period, (no wonder when the sex gets boring at home the guy takes of to look for a mistress or a concubine) the women have screamed the message out to you guys LEAVE US ALONE and remember Hell knows no fury like a woman scorned. Men are simply not wanted or needed anymore by the modern women, remember women have always used marriage as a way to get a man to carry their baggage and pay their bills, that’s right guys you have been cheated you thought it was about you? hell no it has always been about them, the only reason women get married is for Provision and for Security and if her man cannot give her those two in abundance she will run for the hills take it or leave it. So you guys are too late women divorced you (at least 90% of you)out of their lives and Vagina’s a long time ago just that you simply didn’t read the message and gave them to the alpha male the guy who lives in the house on the hill with enough cash to keep her happy for the rest of her life no wonder this women are chasing this men day in day out therefore no wonder when it comes to women I simply adapted a hands up and Hands off mentality and guess what it has kept me going quite well for over 18 yrs of my life try it and you will not regret it.- I have finally now gotten over this marriage thing once and for all and will simply concentrate on my career and job, remember Paul, Jesus and so many others Succeded without getting Married you simply have to take control of your life and nobody will take manipulate you ever again. piece out.

Jun 22, 2008 - 8:18 am 228. Augustus:

“Women have screamed the message out to you guys LEAVE US ALONE”? Have you not forgotten the original article leading to these comments originated from a bunch of women crying why men refuse to marry them? That men are a bunch of little babies playing video games simply because they refuse to be defrauded. Women are being revealed for what they really are, disgusting. The majority will marry a man for his money according to statistics. Pretty shallow. Listen to the radical feminists,yes the same that polluted family courts of shame for your benefit ladies, they constantly remark their goal is to abolish marriage. The corrupt courts are not just a tool for a woman to loot a man of his children, home, and finances, it is also a plea to men, “do not marry a woman or else”. Although for a large part men are listening, but women aren’t because they have everything to gain. Obey your sister radical feminist regarding marriage as you do grab the divorce court perks they provided you with ladies. They are feminists and women in general that are destroying marriages. Proof is easy to find and quite obvious. Stop blaming men for all ills, you ladies are not as nice as you think you are. Quite the contrary. Remember it was Eve who was decieved due to her stupidity and the cause of all civilizations ills. “Hell knows no fury like a woman scorned”? Scorned from what? Men protecting themselves from fraudulent? In this case should it not be “hell knows no fury like a man scorned”? Is he not the victim of today’s injustices? Men have wrongfully been hated by feminists preaching in the form of manipulation and propaganda deceptive lies. They falsefy statistics verses men and threaten good reliable source statistics about women’s true deeds simply because it does not sit well with their agenda. The more one learns about most women the more it can be seen they are devious. It is a quality to despise. When men are scorned thousands if not millions die. Let’s not forget prophesy explains 1/3rd will die in the book of Revelation. That amount in today’s population is over 2 billion. It is just around the corner because the birth pains Christ mentions are pretty clear in our society. The begining of the Biblical Revelation will begin the moment Israel and the Palestine people sign a seven year peace plan. Is not George Bush and Rice working hard with Israel and the Palestine people to form some sort of agreement. Bush claims it can be done while he still is in office. Seven years will be the duration of the tribulation period. Antichrist is alive and well. He impatiently sits behind the scenes waiting to be revealed. The break-up of marriage for personal gain will not go unpunished. Feminism is evil. A true enemy of God. God cannot be scorned. Those that have destroyed or are destroying God’s precious institution of marriage will feel the scorn of CHRIST’S GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. Hell is fury. It was created by God for a fallen Lucifer and 1/3rd of fallen Angels. It is a place where the majority of people will spend eternity. Hell is a lake of fire. Grab a torch, turn on the burners, aim it at yourself. Does that feel pain? Well, multiply by many numbers the intensity of that feeling and what you’ve got is the LAKE OF FIRE. That is why Christ emphasized Hell numerous times over, to remind people it is real and multitudes will end up in it. CHRISTS GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT is real. At one point or another everyone will be a believer of God. Everyone will bow on their knees before him and confess he is Lord. Satan included, if by force.

Jun 23, 2008 - 5:49 pm 229. J:

I am an American doctor, white male, 38 years old. I completed all of my education at Ivy league schools. I practice in a hip big city and I currently earn more than $400K/year, working 4 days per week. I am six foot one, in great shape, have a full head of hair, have a nice smile, and I look younger than my age. I have a fun and adventurous personality, and I am a very kind, honest, and generous person. I have been told often that am good looking and I am part of a fantastic social scene. I am saying all of this not to be immodest, but to make it clear that I am what most would consider a great catch. I date a lot and have girlfriends and flings, but I don’t think I will EVER get married, and certainly not to an American woman.

You can call me an adolescent if you like, but I think American women today are the ones who really need to grow up. I have yet to meet a woman who is decent enough to even entertain the incredibly risky idea of marriage. From my own experiences I can make some generalizations (and I really am sorry to do that) about American women. For the most part, I have found them to be selfish brats that act like children. They are consumers at heart, focused on shopping and fashion, and seem to follow whatever trend TV throws at them. They are extremely superficial, constantly competing for social status. Conversation centers around them and their issues – it’s all about me, me, me. When American women think of marriage, it seems like all they think about is the rock, the dress, the wedding, and the honeymoon, rather than the actual marriage itself. They bring absolutely nothing to the table; they don’t know how to cook anymore, they think motherhood/childrearing is a burden, they cannot properly manage a household, yet they think they are entitled to the world. Feminism has turned American women into the worst possible females for marriage – they are constantly fighting some perceived war of the sexes. They are shockingly promiscuous and lie about it or justify it, both to you and themselves. Sorry if that sounds really harsh, but you asked why the proposals are not coming. Look, I know there are a few decent American women left out there who would make wonderfully supportive wives and mothers, but they are very rare.

The few decent American women left, however, are not worth the likely (60%?) divorce that will destroy my life. An American marriage is an incredibly bad deal for men. If it doesn’t work out, the divorce will leave you in financial ruin due to our skewed divorce laws. I have married, divorced, and single friends. Guess which ones are happiest.

Do you want to blame someone for not getting a marriage proposal? Blame feminism, the courts, our colleges, tv media, the sixties generation, Sex and the City, women in general, I don’t really care. JUST DON’T BLAME MEN. We are still as great as, perhaps even better than we have ever been. You girls make terrible wives – feminism threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Do you want to fix the problem? Change our divorce laws and the rest may fix itself. It certainly wouldn’t hurt if women initiated a little more introspection and started taking some responsibility.

By the way, right now I am on a trip to Japan and all I can say is wow. These women are incredible! Very feminine, supportive, old fashioned, family oriented, and they absolutely love American men. Apparently, we are considered a hot commodity out here. I have found the same thing in Eastern Europe. If you think you have to get married, you really should do some traveling abroad. Whatever you do, DO NOT marry an American girl.

Jul 5, 2008 - 7:34 am 230. Augustus:

I agree j. That is why i am corresponding with an Ukrain young lady. Her letters seem like a breath of fresh air. I sense a true genuine lady in her. A real woman to love,adore, provide for and protect. With her i can trust to have children with in a stable marriage. All because she is not of the social engineered by feminism in western civilizations. My hope is that all men will take such advice to heart. It is so difficult to live amongst women of vanity.

Jul 6, 2008 - 2:17 pm 231. Talen:

The USA is definitely a place where women are to be avoided but there is a promised land where men are valued as men and women value themselves as women, Asia. Single men are happy, co-habiting men are happy and, no surprise given how women are in Asia, married men are happy. My advice is go East, (Far East), find the woman of your dreams, and live with her in her home country without all the feminist insanity.

Jul 7, 2008 - 9:30 pm 232. Gluon the Ferengi:

I have met some adorable women in the United States, but even they have generally been indoctrinated in a lot of feminist thought. I find again and again that they hate their bodies and resent being perceived as ’sex objects.’ They bitterly resent the very fact that men admire physical beauty and harbor deep and vindictive jealousy for anyone that is deemed beautiful. They are scared that men will rape and abuse them if they so much as go outside.(Even those girls who are physically active will run only on the treadmill rather than in the great outdoors, ride only on the stationary bike, while wearing headphones to prevent the annoyance of having to interact with men at all) Their views have been so distorted that many otherwise nice girls are completely unsuitable for marriage. I have trouble being attracted to someone who is afraid of me, who is more inclined to see me as a potential rapist before a boyfriend, husband, or father. In time they have gotten what they wanted. I have more and more trouble seeing them as ’sex objects’ at all. They are asexual for all practical purposes.

It’s true what is said about foreign countries. Traveling quickly redefined my definition of women and revealed to me once and for all how the ladies back at home are ridden with a host of irrational fears and neuroses. I’ve been to countries where there are not a slough of laws in place to protect women from every conceivable threat a male could possibly pose. The women were unanimously healthier, happier, and friendlier. They would happily walk out in the streets even at night without fear, they understood that provocative dress draws male attention and they understood in general that it is natural and good for males to express interest in the opposite sex, they intuitively understood and accepted the fact that men have different ways and tendencies than women, they were open and affectionate in a way that the fearful women of the West with all their piled up protections can never be.
My definition of women was changed and sadly, very few Western females fit in it.

Jul 21, 2008 - 1:34 pm 233. aj:

if any body can review all of these comments made by every person and go to other sites what is this telling us all jobs,money,children,divorce self made reproduction rights, family court, domestic violence ,contradicting beliefs for all the years of friends that i knew and aquainted with this is what they pushed to be equal ,they had this all planned for 40 yrs thats why they have so much power right under all of us this is shamefull and selfish…..but what can we do but all change for the better of all of our humanity.

Jul 27, 2008 - 3:18 pm 234. Zimtran:

I couldn’t agree with your article more! Perpetual adolescent ? I have a masters degree I have zero debt, I paid off my 500,000 dollar home in five years. All my utility bills get paid on time. I keep my word to my clients and associates. I don’t have any points on my driver’slicense. I don’t drink or smoke, and I do my own laundry. I like woman very much and consider them to be friends. But there is no way I’m ever going to get married. Because for me, as for increasingly many men I know, the institution is a very bad deal, a rotten deal, a potential legal and financial disaster waiting to happen. And we know it. We can tell which way the wind is blows, and we know when a legal system is designed for one reason only, to destroy our lives. And we’ve rebelled. What you are witness to is a simple thing to understand really, it’s a rebellion, a well thought out, entirely rational rebellion against a legal system that has demonstrated in no uncertain terms that it doesn’t care about us at all. Marriage may once have been a good and positive thing, something which benefitted society. But then the state decided it would take charge of people’s lives for them, and destroyed a perfectly good thing, because after all they know sooooooooo much better than the rest of us how to implement universal happiness right ? Well excuse my English, but the legal system can now kiss our asses ! We’ve opted out. Never been married, never going to be! At least not in this country. The government can still convince men to die by the thousands in it’s stupid wars, so I guess the society can still convince a few to get married.

Jul 28, 2008 - 4:17 pm 235. KARMA:

Also NEVER believe FEMALES about contraception, EVER!

Jul 30, 2008 - 5:11 am 236. Survivor:

My new perspective after going through a divorce. I worked my tail off for 25 years and fathered a daughter just so my ex could have a better life with my daugther. And so her attorney as well as my own could put their kids through college. And so that my ex-wifes boy friend could see my daughter 10 times more than I was able to per the court order.

Thanks family court for financially raping me and robbing me of my time with my daughter. Sure, great instituion called marriage …. for the woman! I must make note so as to NEVER DO IT AGAIN!!!!

Too bad our male children aren’t taught in school what over 50% of them will have to look forward to! The trial lawyers I’m sure wouldn’t want that truth to come out. Never the less the word is getting out and some are figuring out the marriage scam.

Aug 9, 2008 - 6:22 am 237. Ben Dover:

It would be very interesting and, I am sure, enlightening to have a conversation with MR. HYMOWITZ and see what he really thinks and how he really feels about his wife when she isn’t there to coach him or mete out punishment for not towing the party line.

Aug 10, 2008 - 4:04 pm 238. Windbag:

I’m way late to this party, and haven’t read many of the comments thus far, but here’s my $.02. I’m married, but there is no way that I would seek marriage if I found myself single again. I’ve watched too many friends over the past couple of years get taken to the cleaners by women backed by the “justice” system. All it takes is a frantic phone call to 9-1-1 and the police are there to tell the guy to leave his own house. Who needs that?

One friend married a woman who is as bat guano crazy as they come. She went nuts one night, was beating him, so he restrained her at arm’s length to try to neutralize the situation. Guess who has a restraining order now? No, thank you.

Aug 11, 2008 - 4:06 pm 239. Em:

It sounds like there are a lot of bitter men out there who have a real problem with women and vice versa. Unfortunately, men and women seem to know exactly how to hurt each other in the most effective and lasting ways. The trust between the sexes is completely shattered. Men and women are supposed to be each others opposite, the yin and yang, and that harmony has been disrupted by all the infidelity and selfishness and lack of consideration for each other’s feelings. Marriage should be a union between two people who have seen each other for years, not months, not one year, but several years. People who know each other extremely well, have acknowledged each others flaws and have accepted them for who they are, warts and all, and have truly contemplated what it means to be with that one person for the rest of their lives. Getting married is not something to be taken lightly. You need to be in a place in your life where you know who you are, and have accomplished the things in life that you have always wanted to do or have, and are happy with yourself. It is a very serious commitment that should not be taken lightly. Woman can have children well into their 40’s these days, so there’s really no need to rush. The most important thing is to marry your friend. My dad, who has been married to my mom for 20+ uears and almost got divorced at one point, told me that the one thing that has kept them together is that they are friends. They like each other. When they think the love is lost or the spark is gone, they still have their friendship to fall back on, to hold them together in the hard times. If you don’t like the person you are with, if they can’t make you laugh and vice versa, then what will do you when it seems like everything is lost? You leave, because you don’t have that friendship that makes you see what you will miss if you don’t stick it out. Marriage is just too serious of a thing to be taken lightly. Maybe men have the right idea.

Aug 14, 2008 - 8:33 am 240. shocked!:

Women marry to have legitimate children & receive financial support for themselves & those children. I believe this because women bring on 70% of divorces. Men, on the other hand, given the highly expected financial & child custody losses, take huge matrimonial risk because they genuinely want to be married & to have families.

Therefore, feminism & women are destroying marriages. The result is a crumbling society, moral & economic. Soon it will take course to a full conclusion. When that happens, many will still remain ignorant with these facts, not take responsibility for their actions in deeds & beliefs, & unjustly point fingers as to why it happened. The present generation societies have deservingly earned a catastrophy. May it take a painful fall for the benefit of future generations.

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:21 am 241. My 2 or 3 Cents:

Here’s the deal. Man grows up believing in love, marriage, and children So he falls in love, has some kids and believes he has finally made it in society as a “family man”, provider, and lover.

Wife knows the kids are her ace in the hole when it comes to equitable distribution, child support, alimony plus she has watched Oprah enough times to realize that she’s missing something in life and she’s already won lifes lottery. Plus she’s a dyed in the wool closet feminist.

Husband wakes up one day and gets his divorce papers in the mail. After being made a pauper per the aforementioned and his family fantasy balloon being poped, reality sets in.

Enough men have experienced the above and have let the cat out of the bag. Present family men are shaking in their shoes at the thought of becoming a puaper and losing their children so they become wimps. Notice them walking behind their wives in the various stores pushing a cart while the little woman fills same.

Someday some Hollywood Movie Studio will make a film portraying marriage and subsequent divorce as it really is and make a mint.

Can you imagine a divorce lawyer portrayed as he really is? Or showing what really happens to the husband when he loses almost all his money and lives like a pauper so the ex and children can continue living the same life style? Or the games played by the ex to prevent the kids from seeing their father per the court order?

Todays Marriage Nightmare story needs to be told to the unsuspecting young boys who have this fantasy about fatherhood and marriage. The real story needs told. Thanks for this forum as some will be saved from this horrible fate.

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:32 pm 242. Robert:

And for all you guys who think you can find some foreign born goddess to fulfill your dreams, you’d better not bring them to the good old USA. They learn fast!

Aug 18, 2008 - 9:54 am 243. David:

If Sir Paul McCarthy can’t keep an average looking (at best), old, one legged dog (Western slut) happy…. what chance have I?

The great myth of never ending trouble free pussy. Kind of like Sasquatch, all this bogus proof keeps popping up, but where is he? Exactly, the big mo-fo doesn’t exist. Marriage is like that….. except the only Big Foot you will see is the one her lawyers stick up your ass. Yeah…. and you can quote me on that!

here’s the situation … your lovely wife wants her life exactly as it … kids, house, cars, your income, etc. Except one little thing … she wants you out of the picture completely except for your money. In effect, she wants EVERYTHING but YOU!

Bill Murray accused of Drug, and Spousal Abuse: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0529081murray1.html

Phil Collins as paid nearly $84 million in divorce settlements to his ex-wives. Some men just don’t learn: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405783,00.html

Aug 19, 2008 - 6:07 pm 244. Justice?:

Yes, some man just don’t learn. They probalbly deserve their fate. For heavens sake, even young people i’ve spoken to ( teenage girls included ) have told me the divorce courts is a womens shameless institution. These are honest young people who have experienced a divorce in their household. They know exactly what’s going on.

Today i was driving along in the Detroit area. A commercial on main stream radio was advertising a (extortionist) divorce law firm. In the commercial, a female client proudly announces, “I got the condominium, my ex paid my debt & he was left in debt.” I cannot believe how arrogant these criminals are. She extorted money from her ex, the father of her children, & boasts about it. In other words, what she is saying is “to all women, extort all wealth from the children’s father at all cost because it is legal. We are not accountable, our divorce laws are lawless beause us women gain at all cost.” It might as well have been a Colombian drug cartel commercial, advertised on this station, selling drugs to the populace. It’s all the same. Criminal!
May your children, (especially sons) see you for what you really are: a pathetic criminal.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:19 pm 245. Murkin:

Umm.. I am a single woman with a live in boyfriend and I am the one that does NOT want to get married ever. Marriage is not exactly a cake walk for ladies believe it or not. And my boyfriend, my”cow” (to use a rather unfortunate earlier analogy) does provide some high quality, high fat, high calcium milk for free.

Aug 23, 2008 - 7:18 pm 246. Anarchiste:

Marriage brings a man absolutely nothing. Marriage takes from a man absolutely everything.

Marriage is nothing short of slavery.

Aug 24, 2008 - 1:12 pm 247. Knights13:

“And for all you guys who think you can find some foreign born goddess to fulfill your dreams, you’d better not bring them to the good old USA. They learn fast!”

Have some confidence Robert. How fast do you think a Christian can turn into an Atheist? Let’s say he/she were around Christian influence from childhood to the age of 24. How many by the age of 27 would be Atheist or Agnostic. Some might turn into Deists but it is very unlikely they would make a drastic shift.

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:52 pm 248. x:

Well, I’ll tell you the real reason. Us guys have all seen the photos of Victoria’s Secret women… and that’s what we want. We grew up hearing how rock stars get “Money for Nothing and Chicks for Free” and that’s what we want… and so forth.

A young guy looks at it and says “I want to be an alpha, like the Media and Sports heros”.

Only problem is, 99.9% of us have no way to achieve that. But they try to do it anyway, usually by lying, LOL! And sooner or later it blows up in thier faces.

But then that’s because the women want the equivalent, read that the Brad Pitts, the George Clooney’s or whatever.

In short we all want the “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous”.

Problem is most of us have no way to get the $$$ and most of us don’t look like airbrushed, perfectly photographed people. So we all end up frustrated as hell.

There’s your real answer. We’ve seen an image of a life with no apparent downsides and all believe we deserve it. Which is not to say we don’t. But try to get it. LOL!

Aug 30, 2008 - 1:18 am 249. Teebs:

The Princess Syndrome

Womyn are essentially men devoid of responsibility and accountability. For all the special attention catered to womyn above and beyond any other creature on earth they have only delayed their adolescence into a spoiled mire of self-righteous contempt towards men and the very face of life itself. Only awareness, truth and responsibility shall ever save the countless vilified good men from the weak sniveling snots that womyn have become.

Feminism is a religion of hatred against men. Period.

Sep 1, 2008 - 8:06 am 250. Nicole:

I am glad I found out about the feminist hoax while I’m still young. I’m a 21 year old female college student. I know that my childbearing years are not going to last forever. Luckily I have a great, conservative boyfriend who also wants to get married and have lots of kids.

My roommate is a self-described feminist. She has sex with guys before they ever even go on a real “date” and she can’t figure out why they don’t want to start a serious relationship with her. When I tell her I can’t wait to get married, she says “Ew, why?”

Feminists are going to destroy this country. It’s even worse than I ever could have imagined.

Sep 6, 2008 - 2:12 pm 251. inthebluesea:

Nicole;
Nice to read a comment of a wise smart young lady. Many women (& men for that matter) should take your counsel. It is good to see a young lady of 21 see through an obvious evil hoax. I for some reason believe your future husband & children will be safe in a strong family unit because of your sense of logic.

As for your roommate: The “Ew, why?” is a good sign on her part. There is no way society would benefit if someone such as her ever marry, for the sake of her possible precious children and a possible good husband. As it is, we have way too many (so called adults) making a mockery of the family unit simply by getting married only to destroy it for selfish reasons. A trail of injustices created in it’s path.

As for you precious Nicole, you are special.

Sep 6, 2008 - 3:50 pm 252. Adri-from-Canada:

I am a female, actually of Eastern European origin who, at 52 has maintained my looks and do in fact look 10 years my junior. I left my ex-husband because of serious issues that I will not go into in print, but all that I can say at this point in time is God Bless Him, and I hope that he achieves happiness in his life. My ex-husband’s father consistently stated that marriage was a sham, and the ex’s father, an admirer of the 1950’s “Rat Pack”, felt that life should be undertaken in the manner that Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Sammy David Jr. and Peter Lawford et al advocated … wine, women, adventure and song, notwithstanding their marriage vows. Or as the ex father-in-law stated … “No woman is going to have any hooks up my ass.” This idealogy seemed to be passed on to my ex-hubby.

So … here I am, a goody two shoes (feminie with long brown hair, slim, fit, generally attractive, with a strong belief in God, educated, (underemployed ), and I cannot find anyone who will commit.

I agree that the craziness of the 1950 and 1960’s, what with Timothy Leary, Gloria Steinem, Hugh Hefner, Germaine Greer, Roe Vs Wade et al, and, of course, the COSMO girl, have served to disrupt society.

While I have had many one or two time dates, and a possible man of interest currently, I find that men do not want to commit.

I blame media and the way our government has allowed big business to structure society – to essentially force women to work – because she can no longer depend on a man for support. Unfortunately, men cannot seem to get emotional suport either, because in my humble opinion, women do not know how to give it anymore. Women have become cold, crude and coarsened. Sigh.

The problem is with our society being controlled by the controllers of modern day media and the products it flogs to the unsuspecting public.

Sep 15, 2008 - 8:39 pm 253. Alexander responding to Adri:

I am a male from Eastern Europe, who came to the states in the 50’s. I was married for about 10 years to a gal who was of Eastern European descent. We had a daughter together.

After being bludgeoned by the American Divorce Court System, I’ve found peace and happiness and contentment by staying away from the most dangerous person in the world; a woman!

You, Adri, talk about the lack of “commitment” by the opposite sex and are somewhat surprised. Why? How would you like to have everthing stolen from you by a corrupted court system which only cares about taking care of the woman and especially one with a child and financially rapes the man in the process.

Your last paragraph blaming the “modern day media and the products it flags” IMO is really just a symptom of a society hell bent on self distruction.

While I and many, many other men have figured out the scam/scheme called marriage whereby through the divorce process lawyers, judges, and all their minions have legally financially raped us men, there are still a few dolts out there who are unawares.

With some luck, and persistance on your part Adri, you could find one I’m sure. Good luck, because there are some men who still need to go through the Family Court System in order to obtain the reality check of their life!

добраніч

Sep 16, 2008 - 9:35 pm 254. Knights13:

“While I and many, many other men have figured out the scam/scheme called marriage whereby through the divorce process lawyers, judges, and all their minions have legally financially raped us men, there are still a few dolts out there who are unawares.”

You have a point. I disagree in the sense that some may be dolts but some may be just more confident and greater visionaries. There are ways to override and put all those obstacles in a loophole with you out of it. This all while having a wife at the same time.

Reminds me of a man telling me about marriage. He said: ” It’s like a bowl filled with shit and the top layer is honey. Once, you have ate the honey you are stuck with the shit”.

Then he goes sarcastically: “Do you see where I’m getting at?”

I told him; yes definitely. You got screwed on the deal. Next time keep your eyes open when purchasing things.

Sep 24, 2008 - 9:39 pm 255. Paulo:

I agree.

Oct 7, 2008 - 4:11 pm 256. Michael:

Marriage is a legal contract.

Would any sane person sign a contract without reading it first?

That is what is expected with the marriage contract. In fact, you can’t sign it, because is scattered throughout case law and legislation.

Imagine if you could actually read the marriage contract. No one would sign it.

Pre-nups are marriage contracts that both parties have actually read. That should be the case for marriage contracts as well.

Of course, some women would object that this is “unromantic”

Nov 23, 2008 - 1:12 pm 257. Suelpehycle:

Very usefull post, i think i will use it.
Thanks.

Dec 16, 2008 - 1:42 pm 258. Taras:

I’m a 42-year old divorced man, college educated with no kids and no desire to every marry again, at least an American woman ever again. Why? Because my now deservedly ex-wife typified everything wrong with women these days other posters covered in exhaustive detail. The animosity towards men. The greed, narcissism and no honor, integrity and responsibility. The fact that marriage is a losing proposition for men. Add to that the fact I found out she was a junkie, that she was also a lesbian and her hostility towards me. That in the face of the fact I was working in a dangerous occupation to pay the bills. That in the face of the fact I upheld my end of the bargain and then some, and was repaid with betrayal and worse. I will never forget that her kid tried to get me tossed in jail on a false accusation. She also used sex as a way to try to control me. I never cheated on her, but she evidently was in all likelihood cheating on me. This was not the first time contact with women left me very angry, disappointed, confused, or feeling mightily betrayed. I’m no saint, I know where my weaknesses are and I’ve been working to overcome many of them all of my life. I still feel anger towards my ex because of the betrayal on her part. I have never forgotten the stunts sever women have done to me, because of the incredible malice that motivated them, and to this day I have an intense dislike for all of them. Women forget that betrayal is something men never forget, and rarely forgive. Dr Helen, a lot of men are angry over the treatment they get at the hands of women with the state helping them destroy men’s lives and futures. I frankly as a result of my mostly bad experiences with badly behaved women do not like them anymore, and they clearly always despised me. I therefore avoid them because I don’t want to be around people who detest me only because I am white and male, and I just want to live the rest of my life in relative peace. The stress my wife put me through nearly killed me on the job. I’m not going to ever let a woman take what little I earned from me, let alone my freedom. In another time, I would have been glad to have married and formed a family, but today it’s frankly impossible for me and millions of other men. There is no one for us to marry, and I’m not going to have the wool pulled over my eyes ever again. Sorry girls, that one is on you!

Taras

Dec 17, 2008 - 8:55 pm 259. Vitalikov:

Hello! Would like to congratulate to you with coming new year!

Dec 18, 2008 - 11:40 am 260. vamkino:

Hello! Would like to congratulate to you with coming new year!
And into the account of article that of drawings

Dec 25, 2008 - 10:53 am 261. Stychogedgecy:

What is bumburbia?

Jan 6, 2009 - 3:56 am 262. Tommy:

A bad marriage is a lot like a business acquisition or merger that did not go well or the “synergies” of a combined company were never realized. Often somewhat successful company with good cash flow (i.e., the man) seeks to acquire a certain “prestigious” or “desired” product line (i.e., a woman) that will hopefully “enhance” the long term growth and prosperity. The acquired company (i.e., the woman) often does not have as good cash flow or profitability (women usually try and “marry up”). Just as in the case were the underperforming company often is drag on the formerly profitable company and the directors of the acquiring company realize that they were much more profitable before before the acquistion and would have been better off if they never made the acquistion, men who get married and then come to the conclusion that their lives were better off if they never got married it is too late. In other words marriage simply does not “add value” for men who: (1) have a high level of self-esteem; (2) are at least somewhat modestly successful in a career or business; (3) attain a certain level of personal fullfillment from various hobbies, interests and avocations; (4) do not define themselves by who they are with. In other words for men who bascially “have thier shit together” marriage does not “add value” to the quality of their lives.

Jul 3, 2009 - 6:55 am

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