Pajamas Media

72 Comments

1. Smokey:

My advice, FWIW: go to eHarmony.com, Match.com, or any of their clones.

Place your ad and explain the problem just like you did to Dr. Helen. Be completely honest about it.

My bet is that you’ll have females applying to you for a change — and the line will probably stretch around the block.

These days, women are pretty open about exactly what they want. And most of them want sex every bit as much as men do.

Jan 23, 2008 - 12:15 am 2. Benson:

Seems to me that “Reader” and Dr. H. have got the tail wagging the dog: the real issue is more social than sexual. Friendship, trust, intimacy are the core, IMHO, while the act of coitus is secondary or tertiary. I find it bizarre that people put so much emphasis on intercourse; it’s a shibboleth of sorts. It is absolutely not true that if you have had it once, everything is necessarily all right and you are “normal.”

I suspect Dr. H. and most folks here believe the best advice they can give “Reader” is to get his head screwed on straight, and then go…you get my meaning. It’s a “Help This Poor Deprived Soul Get Some” campaign. That strikes me as obvious to him, too, and boy, will that ever put the pressure on — and decrease his chances of having a halfway reasonable first experience, should he have the opportunity!!

There is, in other words, something disturbingly inhumane in the way “Reader’s” question has been answered. Looked at in a lawyerly way, Dr. H’s words are narrowly correct, of course, and she’s not overt about the message she sends. But there is something off-color about it. “Fix yourself, Buddy, and then go get your hat blocked so you can be one of the men, too.”

Whether “Reader” needs professional help should not turn on his virginity, in other words. It should turn on his pain. The fact that he wonders about himself is not a pure indication that he needs any help: the pressure to have that first sexual experience is itself dehumanizing, and he’s passing judgment on himself at least partly on that basis. He’s a victim of the double-whammy of machismo and vicious female scorn for “losers.”

I say “Reader” needs to deal with the assualt he suffered, and forget about some primitive tribal rite of passage that he skipped. Get at the pain and ease it first, then take life as it comes, sex or no sex. Virginity should mean nothing. Unfortunately in our culture it’s a curse, or a pathogenic condition, or sign of failure as a human being — “virtually everybody has it by late twenties.” “Reader” is being stigmatized here, subtly but distinctly. He doesn’t need a hot date, he needs a little genuine compassion and he certainly does not need anyone validating his doubts about his status in a society that has its values upside down.

Jan 23, 2008 - 4:20 am 3. Ole:

A caution about eHarmony: Doubtless it’s an excellent service, but it filters out about 20% of applicants. I’m a male virgin 10 years older than “Reader,” and eHarmony wouldn’t have me. I have to assume its personality test detected the emotional problems that caused me to be alone in the first place. Their service doesn’t exist to fix damaged people.

Jan 23, 2008 - 6:40 am 4. cnmsx:

I was 27 for my first time, which I honestly thought was never going to happen, since I had managed to go through high school and college without accomplishing much (read: never even rounded first). There are several reasons, but they all tie into the fact that I hated myself very intensely and so I couldn’t even fathom someone being attracted to me.

Of course this self-loathing is wrecking havoc on the first relationship I’ve managed to become a part of, which in all reality shouldn’t have happened. It’s really a fluke of a fluke of a fluke. Anyway, as they say, “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Jan 23, 2008 - 6:47 am 5. Curly Smith:

This stood out to me, more so after I read what Benson had to say:

Some men are asexual, I have met some that don’t care about sex and deny being interested.

It initially stuck me as poorly worded, now I’m wondering if it’s a Freudian Slip. If the men don’t care about sex then they’re admitting that they’re not interested. To say they deny being interested says that they’re lying, that they actually care about sex and that they’re not asexual.

Jan 23, 2008 - 7:16 am 6. Andrew:

To the LW I would say that convincing a woman to sleep with you isn’t about tricking a woman. If you pussify your feeling and needs to that point you might stay a virgin forever. Most people including women are stronger than that. And women over 15 probably won’t invest the type of emotional weight on sex which the LW is suggesting.

Jan 23, 2008 - 7:27 am 7. dagny:

Men who think they have to “trick” women into having sex with them don’t know what they’re missing having sex with a woman who actually wants to. I’d suggest you stay away from that sort of advice.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:27 am 8. Jacksecret:

Outside of the abuse problem I see one other one that needs to be addressed and that is the “tricking women” mindset. As someone who used to think that way I understand it, but I was able to correct it from reading a great book a few years ago. I recommend getting How To Succeed With Women by Louis and Copeland. Its an amazing book and certainly something every 40yo virgin needs and it’s not just a bunch of pickup lines either. It’s like a course on women and will quickly dispel the notion that learning how to get dates and sex with women amounts to “tricking” them. Everyone I lent it to had a girl within 2 weeks and I got married at 40 by using it.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:30 am 9. edh:

“Fix yourself, Buddy, and then go get your hat blocked so you can be one of the men, too.”

“Hat blocked”?

Never heard that one. What a hoot! Heh.

Sounds like it harkens back to the days when men used to wear hats. Usually these expressions have some relation to an image or mechanism, but I can’t think of one that explains this one.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:30 am 10. RiverC:

Curly, you’ve polluted your lexicon there a bit. To ‘deny’ does not imply lying at all. It merely means to ’say no to’. The implication of it being lying is a bit of psychobabble. Similarly, if you read earlier English you will find the word ‘Pretence/Pretense’ does not imply ‘falsehood’ but instead refers to ‘what is put forth’ as an observation without implying a judgment on its truth or falsehood. The same goes for ‘deny’. To ‘be in denial’ is different than ‘to deny’. To say, “so and so denies involvement with group x” is a perception, not a judgment. It does not imply that so and so is lying about his involvement.

So, the statement does not say, ‘These men are asexual, they are in denial about their interest in sex.’

It takes their denial for its face value. You make the judgment on whether or not it is genuine.

As for the topic, men have different conditions on which they are ready for a real relationship. Having sex is not a real relationship. Just ‘getting laid’ is based more on animal qualities; confidence, virility, power, attractiveness, and so on. They are for the most part ‘have or have nots’. If you’re not born beautiful, you’re not going to be beautiful.

Real relationships are not based on (but are affected by, I would say) those things. If you’re talking about a real connection, it seems to me that a man needs to be in a particular place before he feels ‘ready’ for that kind of commitment. I think in all cases these men should decide whether they are in it for the sex or want a real connection. If they want a real connection it is a different set of qualifications; if it is to have sex then if you do not have the ‘qualifications’ it comes down to ‘tricking’ a woman into having sex with you. That’s a hard truth, but difficulty makes it no less true.

I would say the ideal is to have the real connection and then the sex only if you have it. There’s no reason to feel guilty or inadequate because you haven’t had the sex; while you may not have had the pleasure or fun of it, you also don’t need to experience the pain of sexual alienation.

If a man is whole unto himself, he will match with the appropriate woman. If she comes late, she comes late. Some times its a blessing in disguise because we needed to work through a bunch of crap before we were ready.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:33 am 11. M. Simon:

Most faiths that I’m aware of prohibit post marital sex.

The favorite porn movie of the married woman?

“Debbie Does Nothing”

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:38 am 12. M. Simon:

The hat block is a convex object that fits inside the hat to hold its shape.

There is a process involved that helps the hat hold its shape once the block is removed, but that need not concern you.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:43 am 13. Dave:

For religious reasons, I’m 30 and still a virgin. (I’m not committed to lifetime celibacy, however: I’m getting married in May.) But some of the “education” I received about sex as a young adolescent did lead to difficulty in attempting even non-proscribed forms of affectionate contact (kissing and such). I was not sexually abused, but sex was often explained to me in terms of power, self-assertion, and possession: the male desires sex and so seduces or even coerces the female into giving it. Since such impositions of will were (and are) distasteful to me, I could not bring myself to ask a woman for anything. The result: my first kiss came when I was 27, and it was unexpected and initiated by the woman. And I had a panic attack.

Long story made short: I had to reinterpret sex (and all physical intimacy) NOT as something that someone else has which I take, but as something which I have and can share.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:50 am 14. Dave:

I’d also advise the guy not to worry about what a wife-beating scumbag on the radio thinks about his game.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/leykis1.html

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:53 am 15. Not Telling:

I was 25 my first time, and if it hadn’t been for a long-time friend from college taking a surprise romantic interest in me, I’d probably still be a virgin. Same basic problem as the Brian quoted in the article (short, fat, low self-esteem wrt own attractiveness), plus a mild case of Asperger’s making the social relations almost impossible to deal with. Unfortunately, dumb luck is the only thing that saved me, so I have no advice to offer. Sorry.

Jan 23, 2008 - 9:58 am 16. Beck:

edh: Having a hat (re)blocked means getting it re-sized or reformed (if it’s become crumpled).

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:03 am 17. Dan:

I think the two reasons mentioned, lack of confidence or the past abuse, could both be in play. For dealing with the impact the past abuse has had, I think you seek professional help. With regard to the lack of confidence, and when the effects from the abuse are dealt with, I think that he can and should begin to study how men and women really interact. Study body language, look at what he finds attractive and see what men they date and observe such men interact with women, read the internet sites for players (don’t be a player, but copying their tactics is not bad), try different things, and see what works for him, see what does not, adjust and adapt.

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:23 am 18. Just Some Guy:

I began having sex at age seven, and have been having it at least thrice daily ever since, for thirty-some years, and every woman has been different.

Most men exaggerate. Admitted older virgins don’t.

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:30 am 19. Troll King:

I slept with more than a few dozen women before I was 30, right about when I got religion. Now I’m 44 and I’ve only had one sexual relationship since then — and that was very intermittent.

What I found was back in the day I had the social skills to “score”. I can talk a woman’s pants off — it’s really a question of making her feel listened to, important, secure, comfortable — and then throw her a curve somehow to get her horny.

Some classic ways: You treat a lady like a whore and a whore like a lady. The woman’s got big breasts — ignore them. Small ones — treasure them. A beautiful woman — barely touch her on the date, act like you’re interested in her ideas. A bright nerdy girl — bend her over the sofa.

And always appear confident without appearing like you’re trying to cover up your lack of confidence (although some women find a little bluster endearing). Whatever you do, don’t get put in the “nice guy” category in the woman’s mind. Then you’re screwed. Also, watch out for women who have a little too much experience — they’re used to hitting all the curves, and before you know it, they’re inside your decision loop.

So what’s been my life result of bedding all these woman. Well, let’s just say I wouldn’t want the ghost of Christmas present to come visit me one night and show me what they’re all up to. According to some google-stalking, they are for the most part successful professionals and moms. A few examples: One is a major TV-network correspondent, there’s a couple of doctors, a couple of lawyers, teachers and engineers, a non-profit executive, a personal trainer. One is a state senator.

And ooh, boy! I managed to get them into bed. Bully for me. Sounds like I missed all the good stuff, all the important stuff, all the stuff that really matters in life.

So, in the end, it was all vanity, and I’m a friggin’ idiot. I’m just glad I stopped behaving that way.

To our middle-aged virgin friends — sex is part of a relationship, but only part of it. The real important things in life are who you love and what you learn — who you stick your dick into doesn’t matter, and neither does a bunch of numbers on a bedpost.

And it shouldn’t have taken me until age 30 to learn this.

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:38 am 20. George:

I was very interested in sex in high school and college, but I was in my mid 20s before I finally succeeded. The problem was simply a lack of confidence and underdeveloped social skills. I suspect that men and women have very different experiences regarding shyness and sex.

I’d recommend not even worrying about sex and just learn how to talk to women. The relevant two words are happy hour. Just find happy hours sponsored by singles groups and practice. At happy hour, the background noise is usually low enough to talk, but the bar environment makes hitting on women socially acceptable. A guy needs to confident when talking to women before he has a chance at sex.

Jan 23, 2008 - 11:06 am 21. edh:

M Simon said:

“There is a process involved that helps the hat hold its shape once the block is removed, but that need not concern you.”

But that “need not concern” me? Oh come on, tell me! Pretty please.

Reminds me of what my parents said to me when I first asked them “where babies come from.” The analogy continues…

Jan 23, 2008 - 11:11 am 22. Lothario:

It’s not so much a matter of tricking women into sleeping with you. It’s a matter of giving them a sort of “plausible deniability”- basically a good justification for doing what they want to do, but feel they “shouldn’t”. Seduction is a consensual thing- it’s pretty hard to seduce a woman who doesn’t want to be seduced.

Part of the problem is that, despite what you often hear, women have a range of “no”s that mean everything from “no” to “convince me” to “definitely”. For instance, “Get away from me, you creep” definitely means no. “OK, but we’re not going to have sex _tonight_”, in my experience, means “We’re going to have sex tonight, but I don’t want you to think I’m easy, nor do _I_ want to think I’m easy.” That said, as a man it is your responsibility to read this correctly, and err on the side of caution if you aren’t sure what’s going on. I’m talking about seduction, not rape.

Also, the degree to which women play games is generally proportional to attractiveness, and inversely proportional to age. So, if you want to sleep with 22 year-old models, you’ll need to bring a lot of game. If you want to sleep with women who are about your age and not stunningly beautiful you probably just need to be confident, funny, and nice. Nice doesn’t mean doormat though, and even the sanest women will generally test your boundaries a bit- if they find they can walk on you they will lose interest pretty fast (and you should run, not walk, from those who don’t in that case). As for confidence- well, fake it till you make it is not bad advice.

Jan 23, 2008 - 11:20 am 23. another one:

Hire a sex worker. Get a anti anxiety medicine like xanax and viagra because you will be very nervous your first time. Think of the xanax and viagra as insurance and even as a first timer things should be able to work out reasonably well.

Jan 23, 2008 - 11:31 am 24. Ole:

another one: Your advice, aside from being illegal in most places, is of no help at all. A guy who thinks he’s not good enough for any woman is not going to improve because he learns that the only way he can get sex is to pay a woman.

Jan 23, 2008 - 11:53 am 25. marion:

Note from a woman: We tend to like guys who are thoughtful and considerate. It’s the guys who show no initiative or backbone who call themselves “nice” because they haven’t committed any axe murders that we typically avoid.

As for older virgins: Any long-term decision made out of fear is a decision that needs further analysis. Men who are abstaining from sex from, say, religious or non-religious moral reasons aren’t acting out of fear. I think Helen’s advice works equally well for someone who’s become a sex addict after being assaulted and someone who’s avoided sex entirely after being assaulted. The problem isn’t really the sex, or lack thereof – it’s that a major incident in the past has led to present-day aftereffects. This guy may well decide that premarital sex isn’t for him after working out his issues about the assault, but he won’t be acting out of fear if he does.

Jan 23, 2008 - 12:22 pm 26. r:

As someone struggling with this myself (not a virgin, but been inactive for last 20 or so years) I think some people are missing the point. It isn’t “just go to happy hour and talk”, that in itself causes anxiety and panic attacks. “Relax, don’t worry about it, it’ll happen” isn’t the issue. There is a real inability to make the small talk and let things flow that a few words and a pat on the back aren’t going to help. We know all that, it is just that forces beyond our control seem to take over. Therapy and possibly short term medication can help. “Tricking women” or playing the sooth lothario are all well and good once you can play the game, but if you fumble the ball, badly, every time, then you aren’t ready for the game yet.

Jan 23, 2008 - 12:40 pm 27. bud:

Ole – don’t be so quick to dismiss “another one”’s advice. Counselling is a good thing, but a real sex worker, as opposed to a street walker, can coach an inexperienced man in the mechanics (and if you think that “it’s all instinctual and it’ll come naturally” I pity your lovers) which will be a big confidence builder. And there’s no reason to feel either ashamed or denigrated by this sort of experience – think of all the movie stars whose name show up regularly in various madam’s “black books”. The best phrase I heard from one of those was, “I don’t pay women for sex, I pay them to go home afterwards”!

Jan 23, 2008 - 12:44 pm 28. Ole:

Bud: You obviously don’t understand how extremely low self-esteem works. Lucky you.

Jan 23, 2008 - 1:47 pm 29. Tony Palmyra:

“Note from a woman: We tend to like guys who are thoughtful and considerate. It’s the guys who show no initiative or backbone who call themselves “nice” because they haven’t committed any axe murders that we typically avoid.”

I think most men – when they speak of being “nice” – mean “has good intentions/is open to a more-than-physical relationship.”

So many of these problems, I believe, are the result of the stultifying effect of feminism on men – particularly the lie that men and women are the same. Thus, it is verboten to tell young men that very often, women don’t actually mean what they say, and a good rule of thumb is to watch what they do, after they say what they say, and learn. “I just want a nice guy*” is a loaded phrase, and I sometimes think that women feel obligated to say this in order that people don’t criticize their choice of a jerk on the basis that they should not then complain about his jerky behavior. Likewise with “I don’t want to play games.**”

Translations:

*I want a guy I find attractive to be nice to me, and to continue to feel attracted to him. (This may or may not be possible in practice.)

** I want to play the game and win, rather than lose.

Jan 23, 2008 - 2:10 pm 30. JM:

I’m 34 and still a virgin. Never even kissed a girl. I have the triple whammy of being overweight, having major psoriasis that doesn’t respond to treatment, and having a droopy eyelid due to nerve damage. I’d actually be a pretty handsome guy if it wasn’t for those things. I’ve asked close to 30 women out, and been rejected by every one of them. Most of them were women I had met at college or law school. I moved back to my hometown of 25,000 to be near family and because I hate large cities, and have opened my own law firm(which has resulted in financial difficulties, so I couldn’t even afford to take a girl out), but I’ve found it impossible to even make friends, much less find a potential date. I wish I had an answer…

Jan 23, 2008 - 2:28 pm 31. Jim Rockford:

I would disagree with Marion and say evidence shows that she is quite wrong. Dalrymple’s “Life at the Bottom” shows working-class women in Britain DO NOT like thoughtful guys, but rather the most hyper-macho.

And I see the same trendline in the US. If all relationships are transient, why not simply bed the most high-status, macho, high-risk-taking masculine A-Lister possible? In that environment: relationships disposable and easy to get out of, with women (rightfully) having independence, women choose (in the main, individuals will vary) the most masculine appearing man possible.

Personal qualities, such as loyalty, decency, honor; or infidelity, abusiveness, dishonor don’t matter one way or another — they are irrelevant.

For men to be successful in a relationship they MUST LIE about who and what they are. If you were good enough as you are you’d already be in a relationship now wouldn’t you?

They’ll have to “sell” themselves as more masculine and desirable men than “Brand B” their competitors. Thoughtfulness and consideration have nothing to do with it, one way or another. Given the transience of relationships.

Jan 23, 2008 - 2:59 pm 32. Lothario:

r: point taken- I was mainly trying to point out that “tricking women” is a strange way to look at it. If a woman doesn’t want to sleep with you you won’t be able to trick her into doing so unless there’s something really wrong with her, and in that case you shouldn’t want to. The game is mutually enjoyable if it’s played well by both sides, and when men act as if it were somehow unseemly or unethical I’m always tempted to wonder if they’re justifying the fact that they aren’t doing what they’d like to.

Unless you are downright phobic, the best way to deal with the fear part is to habituate yourself to it. A lot of experienced performers will tell you that stage fright never goes away- you just get used to it, and learn to function with it, and even channel it toward your own ends. You can start modestly- just start approaching women, having short, friendly, exchanges, and then going away. Very few women are going to react badly to that, as long as you don’t come off creepy. And a few might respond really well, and draw you out. Success breeds success. Just don’t put too much pressure on yourself to go out and get some immediately. At first, just having some pleasant interactions is enough.

Also, bear in mind that being a 47 year-old virgin is easier, in some respects, than being a 22 year-old virgin. Young women, particularly really attractive ones, can be really rough on men. They have a lot of men to choose from, and sex has more significant consequences for women than it does for men, particularly during the prime child-bearing years. The easiest way to winnow the field is to throw a lot of grief at the guys, and see who stands up to the treatment. Women in their mid-forties are, generally speaking, a lot more forgiving.

The other thing you can do is to start flirting a bit with women you interact with when you’re out and about- the girl at the coffee shop, or the woman at the post-office. Women love to flirt, as long as it’s clear that it’s consequence-free. I’m not talking about a crass remark, or a leer. Just send them a little twinkle and see what comes back.

One thing a lot of men do is act like they’re not interested in a girl when they are in fact trying to get closer to her- it’s like they think they can sneak it in real quick without her noticing… this is really transparent, and, at best, will permanently relegate you to “friend” land. So you need to get used to showing various levels of interest, but in a light-hearted way that says “I’m not going to stalk you.” Flirting a bit, even, or especially, when you have no intention of following it up in any way, will get you used to doing that. It will also get you free coffee .

I mean, I’m not saying that therapy or drugs might not help (beta-blockers spring to mind), but if you want to be having a different kind of interaction with women than you’re having, you’re going to have to change the way you interact with them on a fundamental level. And at some point that means taking the bull by the horns and making some changes- they can be very small ones at first.

Jan 23, 2008 - 3:45 pm 33. James Westfall:

Well, here goes.. I’ve still got 7 or so years before starring in my own “40 year old virgin” remake, but that movie hit much too close to home. I’m 6′4″ and about 340-350 lbs (about the size of a lineman), but I’ve always been oversized (hat size 8.5, shoes 15) and mildly active (skiing, bicycling, swimming). I have basically engineered my entire life around being self-reliant and self-contained, and while I have no problem being friends with women, I find I really just can’t trust them. I could probably have found some girl at a frat party or something, or paid a professional in Vegas or Amsterdam (been to both many times) but it didn’t seem right.

I think for me at least a part of it really was the sort of militant feminist PC that prevailed during my formative years, it was the time of the contractualization of courtship (Antioch College was the poster child) and demonization of males that has continued to this day. Not to mention the fact that the AIDS panic was in full bloom, along with Just Say No. Being a good young conservative, I did.

I always thought, after college, that my drive would go down. It has, but it’s been replaced by loneliness as my friends have all settled down and started families. I see what they have, and I want it, but I haven’t the first clue on where to start. I feel like I’m at someone’s confirmation or bar-mitzvah, not knowing when to stand or what to say.

It doesn’t help that I relocated to a new town for work, and while it pays very well (near 6-figures in an area with a top-20 low cost of living) and leaves me with lots of spare time, I just wouldn’t know how to even go about finding someone. Going by myself to some bar seems desperate, and even then I wouldn’t know what to do. My field is also overwhelmingly male, there are basically no opportunities to meet anyone at the office, and I would be petrified of HR if I did (I saw that SNL sketch).

Most days I really do have to ask myself why there’s a point to me being on this planet, as I end up feeling redundant and unnecessary. The best answer I could come up with is that it would upset my family if I weren’t here. While I fully support the 2nd amendment for individual protection, I just don’t trust myself with a handgun, for the same reason that I would keep the windows rolled up in the car while going over bridges as a child.

So, another day will be here soon, another pointless day, maybe I’ll be able to help someone, maybe there’ll be a reason for me to be here. I guess that’s inspiration enough?

Even somewhat anonymously, it was good to get that off my chest.

Jan 23, 2008 - 6:02 pm 34. Wacky Hermit:

I think Lothario has the best advice so far, and I would add that one way to get in some interaction with women is to join a club or group, secular or religious, that has co-ed activities. Get on a committee or something that has a few members of both genders, and interact with them, then expand from there. Make friends with a successful long-term couple and observe their behavior and relationship so that you have a positive example.

Jan 23, 2008 - 6:25 pm 35. Trey:

Hey Reader, get some treatment for the sexual abuse. Find some people in your area who have experience working with the problem, then schedule an appointment and work with the person you feel most comfortable with.

People who have been raped tend to feel very anxious when even thinking about sexual contact for awhile. That is completely normal, though tragic. Talking it through helps a lot. God bless you, and get some treatment, you deserve it and you are worth it.

Trey

Jan 23, 2008 - 6:48 pm 36. Jack:

I lost my virginity at age 23, which is late for my generation, believe it or not. But I’ve gone through a dry spell in recent years that has left me without sex since late 2005. This kind of dry spell is not uncommon. If you’re an average-looking or below-average-looking guy who’s not very aggressive and who isn’t considered “hip” or “cool” by current societal standards, it’s going to be really hard to find sexual partners. I get the impression it’s harder today than it once was due to the way that men and women are postponing marriage until later in life. Now that women don’t feel social or economic pressure to marry young, or at all, many women seem to be foregoing the rituals of dating, which they assume will just lead to heartache or unwanted dilemmas, and which gets in the way of career, etc. Of course, a few bad apples — the men who try to play the field and sleep with a litany of women using lies and deception — ruin it for those of us who actually would treat a female sexual partner with respect.

Because women no longer “need” to settle down then, we’re sort of perpetually stuck in a high school mentality, where women have the luxury of waiting for the hip, attractive guy instead of settling down with a stable provider, even one who doesn’t ride motorcycles or look like James Bond. The women in my social circle (young urban professionals) seem to be the most shallow individuals on the face of the earth. The thing is, I don’t think it was always like that. I think that we’re a much more superficial society today than ever before, largely because people can afford to be superficial.

When I was in college, grad school, etc, people always told me that I just have to wait until I’m older, and then the women will be flocking to a smart, stable guy with a good career like me. Well, I’ve waited, and I haven’t seen much flocking yet.

All of that said, I know plenty of average-looking men who are neither adventurous nor exciting and who are engaged or married to beautiful, sweet, smart women with whom they are very happy. It’s easy for guys like myself, and like the 47 year old virgin, to become very cynical about women and to give up. But as I’ve learned over the years, all it takes is a chance meeting with one special woman to turn one’s life from a negative statistic into a positive one. Never give up.

Jan 23, 2008 - 7:12 pm 37. Alec Leamas:

“Going by myself to some bar seems desperate, and even then I wouldn’t know what to do.”

See – there’s the problem – you don’t need permission to do anything. I go to bars alone all the time, and meet women and network. I also enjoy drinking, so there’s that too.

Here’s what to do – get cleaned up, put on some nice clothes, and make your own late happy hour at a nice bar/restaurant on Friday, say at about 7. Tip the bartenders very, very well ($40, $50) – hell, you have it to burn, right? Go back every week/every other week. Pretty soon, they’ll be your friends, and look forward to seeing you, if for no other reason, because you tip heavy.

Now, you aren’t at the bar “alone,” and the bartenders will funnel good things your way to keep you happy. This will inevitably include women – at the very least, it will seem to women that you “belong” and aren’t a creepy wierdo drinking alone because of your friendly interaction with the bartenders.

Jan 23, 2008 - 7:40 pm 38. George Saufley:

A number of years I got accused of
acting inappropriately in public.
Actually I hit my head, got a
concussion and stood there shaking
violently and and moaning. The
women did not have a good view of
the event but they heard the moaning. About women eight reported
to the police that I had had a
spontaneous “organism” well I got
interrogated but did not confess.
I felt that there were a lot of
brainwashing, conning, coercing and tall tales to get a confession which
they never got. Well psychology books like Philip Zimbardo’s “The
Lucifer Effect” Techniques of
Brainwashing, Interrogating ete
have gotten my attention. Well I
got chosen for Grand Jury Duty
and am not comfortable with it at
all. Is it true that 27% of confessions are false. Which ones are true and which ones are false?
Reading books like “White Guilt” etc
and read the “free inquiry. Think
I will get some of your books.
At the time I was traumatized by
the Interrogation now I think that it is one of the most insane and amusing things that I have ever experienced.
thing that I had ever e

Jan 23, 2008 - 8:08 pm 39. Craig:

48-year old virgin, abused not sexually but verbally during elementary school & afterwards (going through puberty early didn’t help, either). Overweight from an early age and being smart made me an outsider from the start. In the last 30 years, I’ve asked perhaps 6 women for dates; all responded in a negative fashion. Heart disease, kidney failure and ED make it almost certain I’ll die alone.

Jan 23, 2008 - 8:12 pm 40. marion:

James Westfall: I’m going to be a nosy buttinsky here and say that you need to speak to SOMEONE about how you’re feeling now. Not all shrinks are worthless (take Dr. Helen, for example!) and what you’re talking about goes beyond loneliness.

That having been said, for people who have no idea how to meet others…yeah, I know what you mean. I relocated to a similar type of place myself. After a certain age point, in most places, people tend to be married…and while they don’t shun single people, they tend to gravitate toward other married people with the same life rhythms that they have. Which makes it difficult for new singles to form a social network that allows them to meet people. It gets awfully lonely at times – I know from experience.

My (admittedly imperfect) ways of dealing with this: Go to meetup.com and find a meetup group in your area – book group, singles group, special-interest group, whatever. Look for ones that seem to have a fair number of activities. Join a church or other religious organization (the Unitarians take atheists) and get involved in its social groups. Take cooking and wine appreciation classes – those tend to be heavily female. Look for singles events – parties, dinners, etc. – in your area. Are there other single males in your office who could go with you? Where I live, there are groups for singles with big group events in which people can just get to know one another.

Look, I tend to be poor at interacting with the opposite sex. It sucks. Ironically, the ones you find most attractive tend to be the ones you can’t put on your best face with. When all of your friends are married off, you feel alone.

All of that said, I know plenty of average-looking men who are neither adventurous nor exciting and who are engaged or married to beautiful, sweet, smart women with whom they are very happy.
I do too. Do “alpha” males get chicks? Sure. But a lot of men who don’t want to dominate the world do too, just as a lot of women who don’t look like supermodels nevertheless manage to connect up with cute, kind, smart guys.

Jan 23, 2008 - 8:32 pm 41. Benson:

LOL! So you youngsters don’t know the expression, “getting one’s hat blocked,” eh? Then I’ll bet you also never heard it referred to as having your ashes hauled!

“I need my ashes hauled” or “I got my hat blocked yesterday” both refer to sexual intercourse. Yes, the expressions are dated, but they have a quaint charm, IMHO, and deserve to be preserved.

Change of mood:

As for the topic under discussion — well, I despair. There is no hope. People will go on suffering needlessly because it’s futile to point out that the value system that causes this misery is a childish, selfish and inhumane mistake.

In this insane system, it’s the individual victim who has to get fixed, not the society that damaged him. That works to the benefit of therapists, but….

As the sarcastic old song says:

Oh, Dr. Freud,
Oh, Dr. Freud,
How we wish you had been otherwise employed!
This state of circumstances
Just enhances the finances
Of the followers of Dr. Signmumd Freud!

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:23 pm 42. Benson:

Oops! Sigmund, not “Signmund.” Sorry.

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:27 pm 43. Benson:

When Dr. H. said some men denied being interested in sex, she expressed herself ambiguously. We do not know what she was thinking, or whether she was implying anything, but it is a good bet she meant, “They deceitfully claim they are not interested.”

Why? The Oxford Concise (10th edition) says that deny has the primary meaning, “refuse to admit the truth or existence of.”

I don’t know how Dr. H. meant to use the word “deny.” Yet there is a question, and one answer to it is the most likely.

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:51 pm 44. sue:

as a 56 year old female virgin, let me say that the problem, where it is a problem, exists on both sides of the street and for many of the same reasons.

as some of you have found, you are rejected by woman who wouldn’t choose you. but there are lots of women you wouldn’t choose who are just as valuable under the surface.

when it comes to dating, physical attraction is the first step and that attraction is the most shallow thing of all.

Jan 23, 2008 - 10:59 pm 45. Adam Gellin:

I can’t believe so many of these comments seem to be of the “it’s not the most important thing in life” variety. That’s so easy for someone who doesn’t have to live with frustration 24/7 and the possibility that one might die without performing a necessary biological function.

I remember the worst night of my virginal life at 26. A very heavy storm was keeping me awake enough to hear the very hot chick in the apartment next door (whom I lusted for) moaning and squealing with delight in congress with her boyfriend.

Several months later she moved out and a cute but unremarkable girl moved in. She decided I was going to be her boyfriend, and when I bought a house across town, she celebrated the occasion by taking my virginity away-ten days after my 27th birthday. Not that things changed otherwise. At a political event a year later, during a conversation with a girl I just met there I mentioned my relationship, to which she responded: “YOU have a girlfriend??”

It lasted two years, ending because of her health problems. I had hoped that I could make a quick recovery, but not was not to be, and I lived in the wilderness for sixteen years, interrupted briefly by an affair with a married woman at work.

Jim Rockford said:
I would disagree with Marion and say evidence shows that she is quite wrong. Dalrymple’s “Life at the Bottom” shows working-class women in Britain DO NOT like thoughtful guys, but rather the most hyper-macho.

During those years I tried hard, with little to show for it but humiliation. Jim Rockford is right, as I discovered. Blue-collar women want tall guys with brawny frames, and are not impressed by intellectual or career accomplishment. I got it from both ends: unless you toe the line on every excruciating detail in current fashions in feminist theory, you can forget about getting any from yuppie women either.

Jack said:
When I was in college, grad school, etc, people always told me that I just have to wait until I’m older, and then the women will be flocking to a smart, stable guy with a good career like me. Well, I’ve waited, and I haven’t seen much flocking yet.

I used to think that way too. I had a good job, owned my own home, had a graduate degree, didn’t use drugs-all the things the fems say they want.

Problem is they could have those things too without a man. Once again, I got it from both ends: they were competing with me every step of the way for jobs, and thus pushing up the price of entry into the sexual marketplace.

By the time I got married at 46, I had been working for a company for eleven years, but the snickering behind my back continued-especially among the women there: “Good grief, who would be desperate enough to marry HIM??” When we moved to a different city for a new job, I met a single woman of about my age from my home town on the bus to work. I told her about being recent married, and my wife’s pregnancy. She just bit her lip, feeling sorry for ME: “But what about your freedom?”

We’ve been married ten years and going strong because we’re both dweebs who found each other and we know it. Here no one has ever known me as anything other than a husband and daddy, and it really makes a difference. I actually like my job and the people I work with, and have acceded to a community leadership position.

My regret is that I wasn’t lucky enough to have this happen earlier in my life. My wife is 50 with the body of a 20-year old. Dammit, why couldn’t I get to it when it WAS 20 years old? Why couldn’t I get to it when I had the stamina to be experimental instead of barely being able to perform?

The best advice I can give is to avoid the mistakes I made, namely, not to make the effort. If you are a beta like me, you will not be able to be a player and have to settle. Just make sure your expectations are realistic and are comparable to what you offer, look everywhere, and have a thick skin to put up with the humiliation.

There are no guarantees in life of a happy ending, but the more lottery tickets you buy at least increases your odds. Go look everywhere and spend as much time as it’s worth to you.

By the way, I suppose this is about as un-PC as one can get, but as a member of The Tribe myself, I’d be willing to bet about 60-70% of middle-age virgin males are Jewish.

Jan 24, 2008 - 12:05 am 46. Robert:

27 year old virgin here. Couldn’t get laid if I had a wad of $100 dollar bills sticking out of my zipper. Short for a white guy, fat, poor self confidence, same ole same ole. My social life is pretty much an abject failure in most every regard. I have very very very few friends and none of them I would describe as confidants. Basically I find it impossible to connect and relate to people.

Honestly, I’ve given up. I used to think to myself that I’m somehow missing out. But honestly, looking around me, I find little to back that thought up. Sex? I can get myself a cheap whore. At least it’s more honest.

Jan 24, 2008 - 12:51 am 47. Rufus Firefly:

I can somewhat sympathize with the LW’s plight, in so far that being “afraid” of women can truly be the death knell for any hopes of ever finding love. I’m 28 and have Facioscapulohumeral Muscular Dystrophy, which is “the best kind” of MDs to have. It affects the upper body and is non life threatening. During my high school years, I was completely terrified of women and thought there was NO way I could ever even hope to be with a woman. I was so shy I couldn’t even make eye contact.

But, at 19 I met a girl and she didn’t see the MD she saw me. Which I found was not bad and not ugly and certainly capable of being with a woman and having a satisfying relationship. In the nearly ten years since I’ve been with several women, I would say I am a serial monogamist. I’m certainly not a lothario, but I would never wish to be either. Outside of MD I’m a normal looking chap, I wouldn’t say I’m the belle of the ball, but I’m not horrible either. But, those things aren’t important, really. Not to the women I like, anyway.

Which is my point. Know what type of woman you like. I find the blonde bombshell look distasteful and am attracted to the more artsy and intellectual type of woman. If I focused on some idealized version of a woman, I’d probably be very disappointed too, but don’t think that way. If you expect women to look past your physical flaws you should be able to do the same and women have many of the same self doubts and worries as you do.

Don’t be afraid to be you. Be funny, thoughtful and witty. Yes, as someone said above, above all be confident in who you are and what you say. It’s always worked for me and if it can for me, as someone with MD, it can work for most anyone.

Jan 24, 2008 - 1:10 am 48. NikFromNYC:

Virgin at 47? What about guys who have had dozens of women, none of which really turned them on much except the very first one who is now living in another city, childless at age 41? Once you have the virginity thing solved (with a prostitute or three), that’s just the beginning of the problem. Any “average guy” past age 35 basically doesn’t have access to the hyper-sexually liberated generation of girls who came of age as Madonna followed by Britney Spears made it the norm to go through a blatant bisexual stage, as well as have a blushingly (for use older guys) open view about things like kinky sexual variety in general.

Finally, dude, there are albeit rather expensive workshops out there (look up Badboy in Europe or BradP or Pickup101 or MysteryMethod, and log onto the site Fastseduction.com to find a decade old and growing forum of THOUSANDS of virgins, mostly age 19-25, but also stories of hundreds of guys who have studied female instinct and turned it into a populist empirical science. I used to be classically shy, albeit rather bold and debonair in the classic romantic pursuit of girlfriends, my first being at age 20. It used to take me about six months to find a new lover after each 2-3 year relationship. After a workshop or two, now it take 2-3 weeks. The biggest lesson of all, amongst hundreds of rules of thumb spread across half a dozen “schools” of womanizing? Show your desire! Do not be ashamed of showing, even indirectly with a sly smile and non-embarrassment in “checking her out,” physically. And do you know what? It’s not the girl you are shy towards. It’s the same in most primates except incestuous orgy-party Bonobos that your subconscious mind *thinks* you are being closely watched by a big fisted “alpha male” and his closest friends, so if you approach a member of their harem, you really should fear for life and limb or being kicked out of the life supporting group. Of course that is NO LONGER THE CASE IN OUR URBANIZED SOCIETIES, and it turns out, this primal ancient fear can be rather quickly extinguished by having a “Hitch” type of guru give you progressively intimidating exercises about talking to girls in the real world, and finding out that they don’t bite. At worst they might blow you off like swatting a mosquito, but only if you act timid or too round about, like 95% of most guys do.)

Jan 24, 2008 - 1:14 am 49. Slapout:

As yet another old virgin, I already know the problem isn’t that women don’t want to have sex, it’s that they don’t want to have sex with someone as ugly as me. Why would they, when there are a million George Clooney clones out there who will bang even the ugliest girl on request, or even the hint of a request? Those of us who didn’t win the genetic cleft-chin lottery are thus left with no dates besides our right hands.

Experience has taught me the reason women tend to freak out over things like pornography is because they project onto men the same “trade-up-until-I-get-the-hottest-guy” attitude they themselves have, and can’t comprehend that even the fattest and ugliest real-life girl is better to most guys than the sexiest porn star that only interacts with you through the TV screen.

Jan 24, 2008 - 6:16 am 50. Craig Dunain:

Dr Helen,
Could I use your space to recommend a book called Shyness and Love by Dr. Brian G. Gilmartin. Shyness and Love by Dr Brian Gilmartin which I found most useful. It is free and online at
http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html

He is the only academic I’ve come across to have studied this in deptth and the echoes with own experience were almost uncanny. Ultimately it is most useful.

He seems to have been the only person who has done a huge wide ranging survey on this subject.

The book is based on his findings and goes into early childhood experiences.

He is especially insightful in how early teenage experiences set the pattern.

“…In sum, becoming involved in a genuine love relationship appears
to constitute an extremely beneficial, life-enhancing medicine for young
men. The love experience is at once a kind of elixir of life, a sort of
fountain of youth and of vibrant aliveness and of masculine effectiveness.
It might also be seen as representing the richest form of fertilizer
for the cultivation of social self-confidence and expressive interpersonal
skills. Besides being immediately life-enhancing, such positive outcomes
are bound to exert a positive impact upon a man’s lifetime productivity
and general effectiveness.

…Simply put, nothing in the entire study correlated more strongly
with happiness and general sense of well-being than did extent of satisfaction
with amount of informal boy/girl interaction. The correlation
between these two factors was + .65 for the young men.”

All self evident to many maybe, but I’ve never all this put so well in the context of men. He is also sharp about how the entire cultural discussion about failure to love is usually about women who pick the wrong guys.
For those men who never get into the game at all, this is all irrelevant.

Craig Dunain

Jan 24, 2008 - 6:39 am 51. Andrew:

I remember being the “nice” (read: cowardly) guy who couldn’t get it on. My problem was, however “nice” I was being, I was treating the girl like she was a problem to be solved. “I don’t know how to talk to women.” is the common lament. Here’s the trick: There is No Trick. Stop trying to “talk to women” and just talk to people.

Women find you interesting the moment you stop spending your waking hours worrying about how to get in their pants. It amounts to saying to yourself; “I don’t care if I get any tonight or not. I’m going to have some fun.” Then mean it. Then do it. Take some blows to your ego. Get rejected. Feel the pain. Then stand up and tell the crowd a joke. You’ll be chasing them off with a stick.

I went from being Captain “Why-Won’t-Anyone-Love-Me?” to my parents giving my girlfriends serial numbers in jest because it was impossible for them to keep track. Fortunately, this period lasted but a few years before I began seeing my wife. It was fun, but I’m in a much better place now.

Jan 24, 2008 - 6:42 am 52. MarkD:

Try Toastmasters or the Dale Carnegie Course. If you don’t talk to women and feel comfortable doing it, you’ll never get started.

Otherwise, I have no practical advice. Unless you happen to reside in Japan.

Jan 24, 2008 - 6:59 am 53. Emily Nelson:

I didn’t have sex until I was 40 because I was waiting for marriage.

Jan 24, 2008 - 7:12 am 54. RiverC:

It’s not a necessary biological function. Geez. Adam Smith, who made a great impact on the entire world, never had kids. He may have never ‘had his hat blocked’, even. I don’t know. Relationship math is simple. One times One equals One. If either are any less, the result is always less.

That being said, boxing the one-eyed champ a little less often will reduce the so called ‘loneliness’ – which is probably something more like a result of sexual interaction without intimacy – and actually eventually cut down on the libido. Wholeness is a more important goal, and as the old proverb says, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” That means you love yourself by loving your neighbor. And love? It is charity; not eros.

The bitterness is bad, but the real truth is that anything you do to treat it will eventually come to “just getting over it.” Forgive, forget. Easy? Never. Necessary? Always.

Jan 24, 2008 - 8:22 am 55. KAM:

Modern western culture, sex-saturated as it is, finds it inconceivable that people would live far into adulthood without sex. But people CAN survive without it, surprising though it be to many, and for good reasons.

Jan 24, 2008 - 11:39 am 56. Maxine:

Craig at 08:12 am:

“48-year old virgin, abused not sexually but verbally during elementary school & afterwards (going through puberty early didn’t help, either). Overweight from an early age and being smart made me an outsider from the start. In the last 30 years, I’ve asked perhaps 6 women for dates; all responded in a negative fashion. Heart disease, kidney failure and ED make it almost certain I’ll die alone.”—Jan 23
________________________

Craig, 6 woman in 30 years….that’s one woman asked on a date every five years….that’s not very many overtures.

Your letter is sad, but I’ve seen retarded blind men, somehow, snag chicks. You’d be surprised about state of the guys some women run around with.

The guy isn’t supposed to be good-looking anyway. The woman is supposed to be the one with the looks.

Jan 24, 2008 - 10:50 pm 57. cheeky:

I lost my virginity 6 months ago at the age of 26 to a random guy that I met off a sex site on the internet.
Looking back now it is not something I am proud of. But if I had not come across that sex site I would still be a virgin today. I am overweight and unattrative. Im shy with no confidence, and was sexually abused when I was younger. I am extremly lonely and I dont have many friends as I find it hard to meet people, I tend to stick to myself. I had never had anything to do with any guys, had never had guy friends, and didnt know how to even talk to guys.

Since losing my virginity I have had sex with about 12 guys, (again something I am not proud of)all of which I met through the sex site. So you may be thinking if I am shy and lack confidence how did I manage to have sex with 12 guys. Well because I was meeting up with random guy, purely for sex. I didnt care if they liked the look of me or not, cos if they didnt I wouldnt have to see them again. These guys didnt care who there were having intercourse with as long as they were getting some. It took me a while to realise that I was not getting what I wanted through meeting these random guys. I was looking for an emotional connection, for physical touch through cuddles etc, to feel wanted. None of which I was getting.
So I wonder now if I will ever find a guy who I can have a relationship with who actually likes me as a person, likes me for who I am. Because I have such low values about myself, I cant see any guy ever wanting me.

Jan 25, 2008 - 8:36 pm 58. Francis W. Porretto:

What makes this discussion so terribly sad is that the problems of involuntary virginity and involuntary celibacy are entirely soluble. I yield to no one in my sympathy for the sufferers, but there’s little doubt in my mind that by far the greater part of their problem is curable — and no drugs are required.

Jan 26, 2008 - 8:29 am 59. Eric:

As a virgin coming up for, what will later this year, be my thirtieth birthday, I can’t say I’m unattractive (not a model, no, but hey) and my barrier is not the objective of having sex. Obviously, I wouldn’t necessarily turn it down, provided I’m attracted to the other person, but a lot of advice tends to centre around either baltently lying or deliberately forgetting about sex.

Well, I do forget about sex. I just want a romantic relationship, damn it. Unfortunately, there’s just no help I’ve found, out there, for how to get over the old cliche of your mind literally going blank, when approaching the opposite sex.

Which brings me to the main point of this: The film mentioned really pissed me off… Why? Because I was vaguely hoping that it WOULD deal with such a situation. There IS comedy value in it, if it’s approached right, but the films’ problem stemmed from it showing that the guy had NO problem with being sociable with women. The character’s only problem was in not having had sex. It demosntrated he’s had plenty of opportunities to have almost got into bed with girls.

But there are people, such as myself and others here, who are normal, average guys, with bright personalities and such. We just don’t have confidence, when it comes to female strangers. Friends? Sure! Lots of female friends! Most of them lesbian, for some bizarre reason, but once you get into mid-to-late-twenties, everyone THEY know (providing they’re even in the same local area as you) are in relationships and so they can’t really get you in touch with anyone.

The bottom line is, if you’re not confident and aren’t willing to lie about your job or whatever, then you’re in a niche which society and ‘the experts’ have yet to cater for. Some of us don’t purely want sex. Some of us haven’t even kissed a girl. Some of us even know a heck of a lot of theory, but just don’t have the confidence to put this into practice.

And confidence is the key. Just look at people like Jack Nicholson. Not a classic ‘looker’, right? But oozing with confidence. That’s his sex appeal.

Jan 26, 2008 - 12:59 pm 60. Brian G.:

“There are a number of reasons men are virgins after the age of 40; they feel comfortable this way and have no desire for sex (asexuality); their faith prohibits premarital sex; they want sex but don’t know how to approach a woman and feel unable to ‘compete,’ (in other words, ‘got no game’); and finally, prior sexual abuse that may have interfered developmentally with their desire and/or their confidence in attracting women.”

Dr. Helen, I can’t thank you enough. Almost every other host/columnist who mention asexuality at all seems to intimate, condescendingly, that asexuals simply have something wrong with them and that they need to see a doctor for their “problem.” While it is true, as you say, that sometimes there’s a more sinister genesis for someone not wanting to have sex, many of us have a low libido and are cool with it. You take a more “live and let live” approach, and I really do appreciate it.

I’m 35 and male, and I’ve never been sexually active. When I was in high school, it didn’t even occur to me that others around me might be having sex, as — though I was in a public high school — I attended only “nice” parties where there was no alcohol or drugs or kissing or what-have-you. In college, I marvelled at how two people would have a few drinks at a party, and then select each other almost randomly to suck face, when I didn’t want to do that even with someone I had romantic feelings for.

So, when people allege that there’s a connection between my lack of romantic partners and my lack of sex, I respond that, if anything, my disinterest in sex has caused a lack of romance, not the other way around. I was always looking for someone to hold hands and kiss on the cheek with, which never seemed to fit in with the atmosphere around me, contrary to the gross misconception that the US is a “sexually repressed nation.”

Jan 27, 2008 - 11:50 am 61. D:

Mate, I waited till I was 33. Why? No looks issues or anything like that. Had a lot girls making eyes. But…ever since I was twenty, I had battled with bipolar and accompanying anxiety. Ten years of this was undiagnosed. Simply because I thought what I was experiencing was what everyone went through and dealt with effortlessly. And so, I crafted an intricate facade to hide all the internal shite I was dealing with from the world. Only problem was, I could never let anyone get too close, otherwise they might see the real me. And that meant no sex. Being an INFJ I can’t divorce intimacy from sex so, that was it. And yeah, it was frustrating as hell. I was well and truly sick and tired of the sight of my own hand. But, such was my fear of my weakness being discovered, that still I did nothing.

What changed? Well, along the way I got diagnosed, something which at least lifted the burden of personal responsibility from my shoulders, and, with meds, started to get better. That wasn’t the end of it though. I had to actively change the habit I had engaged in over the course of my entire adult life. That being, living life behind a facade. And let me tell you, that, was hard. But, as daunting as it was, after examining the course I had chosen till that point, and all it had given me, which was absolutely nothing, it was nowhere near as frightening as the thought of continuing on the way I was. And so, I took the leap. And frack, was it ever the right thing to do! Daunting, as I said. But it lead me to the path of true strength. One mistake I made along the way though, was giving time to women who were only interested in one part of me (I sound like a bloody chick, lol). As that only reinforced a feeling of isolation and accompanying depression. But, once I devoted my time to girls who seemed to respond to all of me…well, it was all positive.

Now, I am married to a gorgeous 25 year old red head (10 years my junior), and we have a baby son.

Your circumstances are obviously different than mine. But, like I, you hold yourself back, and you want something more.

Only you can take the step though. And I know mate, just how daunting it is. Especially after having your guard up for so long. But 10 years from now, do you really want to be in the same place you are at present? If the thought of that is so much more terrifying, then you are ready.

Jan 29, 2008 - 3:11 pm 62. I NEED TO FIND "D":

I need to find the person who wrote the last comment. He’s description looks exactly like mine. I’m on psychotherapy now, but my therapist still doesn’t have a clue how to help me to solve the problem. I’m very open to admit my problems in front of him, I’ve been doing some socialization, but still can get close to feel true in front of people.

I told him about my facade, that I may look social, I’m attractive, etc., but since I don’t let anyone get too close I don’t find intimacy with anyone. I need to know what’s the correct approach to solve this. I’m under a lot of mental shit. I can see it, I can feel it, but I can’t heal myself.

So “D” is there anyway I can contact you?, seriously, every single thing you mentioned sounds like my life.

Apr 17, 2008 - 4:28 pm 63. Almost a 30 year old virgin:

Obesity, self esteem, confidence are key elements to this discussion.

Right through High School I was overweight, even when a girl was nice to me, I would just wait for a fat joke tag line.

I feel that although the years have past, the humiliation of being obese and teased has had a continued effect on my self worth. I need to improve my confidence in all facets of my life including my sex life. I’m trying to convince myself that I deserved to be loved, and guys at there you need to do the same.

Apr 22, 2008 - 8:20 pm 64. Mr shy:

I am a 43year old virgin male,i hope that “Sue 56 year old female virgin” would see this coment,because i was very interested in your coment jan23. Please write me on this mail adress: shyman007@gmail.com

May 27, 2008 - 6:06 am 65. Mark:

I am 42 years old and have kissed a girl maybe twice in my life. And that’s as far as it has gone. I have significant issues…no self-esteem whatsoever, a bad body dysmorphia problem (I am rather overweight). I have never thought myself worthy of anyone’s affection, and to this day I don’t trust the motives of anyone who shows interest in me. Are they seeing a meal ticket, perhaps they can land me and then take me for all I am worth? Certainly it can’t be for my charming personality. OK, so I am successful, own a nice house in a great neighborhood, am intelligent, articulate and witty, but still…what could a woman possibly see in me?

What developed over the years was a sort of magnified sour grapes that has become a pathological distaste for human contact. I cannot abide displays of public affection, whether in front of me or on TV or at a movie. I get very uncomfortable at sexual innuendo of any kind, even saying (or writing) the word “sex” makes me extremely uncomfortable. I do not like being touched, and my body language certainly shows that. When meeting a woman for the first time in a long time, she will hug everyone, but when she sees me, my body language screams “KEEP OUT!!!” In my younger days, I suffered humiliating rejection after humiliating rejection, after a while, where kids have had a series of “girlfriends”, I had a series of “crushes”. Lisa in 6th grade (I acted upon it and suffered very public humiliation), Amy in 8th grade, Dorothy in 9th grade, Joanna in 11th grade, and so on). This continued in college, where there was one girl I was very interested in, but she always had a boyfriend. I befriended her, we even went to various places together, but it never progressed beyond friendship. Years later, she said she was interested in me, was hoping I would ask her out, but I wasn’t assertive enough. I grew up in a house where assertiveness got you beaten down. I am the quintessential “nice guy”, and assertiveness (on a personal level) has never been a strong quality in me. Anyway, the constant rejection (or perceived rejection) led me to stop fantasizing about being with a woman, and instead became fantasizing about rejecting women, making them feel the pain they have caused me over the years. Now, the truth is, that there are approximately 3.4 billion women in the world that have never caused me pain, but that is entirely beside the point. Perhaps I just want to know how good a woman feels when she rejects a man. If she does, I don’t know. I know next to nothing about women’s wants, needs, desires or thought processes.

I foresee a life filled with myself, and little else. I have developed such a strong distrust of women with regards to relationships (but not in any other area) that I do not dare approach anyone anymore. I also have a fear of losing myself in another person, of losing my identity and freedom. I like my life to be simple and uncomplicated (and above all else…QUIET) and I don’t want it cluttered up. While I recognize the various character flaws and past abuses that have led me to this point, I have reached the point where I just don’t care anymore. If I have to spend the rest of my life being single and go the rest of my life without so much as touching a woman, I can live with that. This was made easier for me thanks to a massive pituitary tumor that rendered me completely sterile and kicked the legs out from under my sex drive. Believe you me, I am very thankful to that tumor for relieving me from years of frustration.

That’s all I have to add to this interesting forum. I find it disturbing that our society places such high emphasis on such things as sex and virginity. Sex is a vehicle whereby a species resupplies its numbers. To put any more emphasis on it than that is sheer silliness.

Jul 12, 2008 - 2:04 am 66. anonymous male:

First of all, I think there are more middle aged virgins that what is believed.
This forum is fantastic!
I`m a 40 yr old virgin, who has never dated in his life. Im educated and have a decent job, but Im only 5`5 and thought I didnt posess the best facial features. From an early age, I programmed myself to believe that interpersonal relationships/intimacy were beyond my reach and just took myself off the market. And I was never asexual at all. Quite the contrary, I was always checking out some hotties who passed by. But my philosophy was `you can look, but dont touch`. It really didnt matter what they looked like, they all were in a different league. And were meant for someone else, but not me. Im sure you are wondering whether I faced tons of rejection. No. I just took myself off the market and focused on other things. Women wont even look at me, why would I ask them out? Rejection in itself is extremely painful and can damage ones ego. So, single – never looking has been my relationship status for all of my adult life. Of course I would love to meet someone, but with my looks its just never going to happen. I know some of you might say that men have to step up to the plate and do the asking. However, contrary to popular belief, it is usually the woman who makes the first move by subtle flirts or hints. If she hints that she is interested, then make the move. But, so far for me, the only woman who will look and talk to me is the safeway cashier. Sure I have sexual desires, and wonder what that first kiss might feel like. But there is alot more to a human being than expressing his sexuality. So I focus on career, hobbies and making money. If she ever comes around and gives me a wink or a smile, then I`ll buy her a drink and head to her table.

Jul 20, 2008 - 6:59 am 67. The Over-Educated Nympho :: What No One Tells You About Losing Your Virginity:

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Aug 11, 2008 - 11:28 pm 68. Paulo:

Excuse me invade this american site!
I´m from Brazil,a nation localizated in south american.I was thity one years old,and never dated,had sex with a woman.
I´m sending the e-mail,for two reasons:A lot of,Mans virgins there are in sensual nations how Brazil.
Second:This site is big help for me!
With cordiality, Paulo.

Sep 15, 2008 - 2:23 pm 69. Paulo:

I agree!

Oct 10, 2008 - 9:57 pm 70. Taylor:

My reasons (excuses?) have changed over the years. At first it was because I was clueless: in middle school, I avoided thoughts about sex because I truly believed my religion’s ruling against “looking at women with lust”, in high school, although I thought about sex often, I was “being smart” to graduate (I had a girlfriend but we just kissed) first, in college I believed the Dworkinesque dogma that looking at a woman with lust was “degrading and dehumanizing”. Gradually my social skills withered. I attempted to be more attractive to women: worked out, learned to cook (having heard two beautiful girls saying they loved a guy cooking for them), learned a foreign language. I sought out organiztions, clubs, places where one could meet women but I rarely met anyone who was interested in me even as a “friend”. Add that I’m at best rather average looking – and that’s being kind.

I blame no one except myself. Perhaps I should’ve tried harder – though I thought I was! I’d ask out women in college and work and at the gym – no Casanova I, they probably thought I was either a jerk, weirdo or loser. Maybe all of the above? I’ve become rather timid and shy, a bit depressed. My idea of social interaction with a woman is being friendly to a 70-year-old librarian or a store clerk.

It saddens me because I think I could have been a good boyfriend or husband. I used to want to be a father. I always thought I’d meet someone but…oh hell, maybe I did and she rejected me.

It’s funny that my cousin, an ex-convict who radiates menace and still uses drugs, can get out of prison and 2 months later be living with a beautiful tax accountant. My brother can visit me and get a date with a woman in days. I went to the gym with my nephew and the girls started talking to him: his first visit, women approach him. Me? Never.

The movie with Steve Carrell was funny but painful: I should be so lucky. He had a job he enjoyed, friends, hobbies, and he could talk to women. He’d even had relationships in the past! My romances consist of a few dates with a girl “friend” in high school, a few lunches with various women (met through work) and … that’s it! Oh, once a woman at the gym smiled at me. Does that count?

A really good friend of mine against all odds – him being a super geeky fellow with weird opinions about aliens, sci-fi movies, videogames, a guy who made Pee Wee Herman look macho -met and married a somewhat less geeky woman (she’s a very good person)in college and they’ve been happy ever since. Somehow they recognized they would be good for each other. I wish I were him.

I don’t think things will change. I’m no longer filled with optimism that a new line, a new event, more contacts will matter. I don’t think sex is the cure-all for what’s wrong in my life. Perhaps I’d be even lonelier with the wrong person. I don’t know. I’ll never get to find out if I’ve been lucky all along.

I do like success stories, so I wish you all well. I think I have better odds of winning the lottery than finding love and companionship. But you guys (and ladies too): Good luck. I hope you all find what you need.

Nov 14, 2008 - 6:49 am 71. Michael:

I am a 50 year old virgin.I am smart (a university degree)and strongly heterosexual but have never dated because:I developed mild schizophrenia and OCD,I am extremely unattractive and shy,and I have never driven a car or worked in my life.I do not have an inferiority complex; logically, I am inferior (compared to other people).I have even attempted suicide. But even if I won a lottery, I would not have sex because of a fear of pregnancy-abortion,adoption,and raising a child are all unnacceptable options to me. Vasectomies are not 100% certain;only abstinence is. I would not want to be responsible for creating someone who inherits my poor genetics (and thus will suffer like I have). But lately, I have developed a philosophy which gives me peace:In the big scheme of things,when you think of the 12-billion year old universe,nothing we do really matters,one way or the other.

Mar 18, 2009 - 4:22 pm 72. Mike L:

I’m 53, Catholic, and still a virgin. I’ve had five dates in my life. None of them was really fun, and I wouldn’t want to see the women again.
I don’t know what to add to these comments except some observations.
I was never encouraged to date or marry by parents. They pushed me into the area of finding a good job and career more than anything. I never had a car until 33, and I developled ulcerative colitis at 20. At the time of life when most folks date and pair up, I was stuck on the sidelines. The internet is great if you are under 30. After 40 you will have a VERY TOUGH time being a bachelor who is attractive to women. They will insist on dating younger as you age up. The time will come when everyone ages out of the dating market. I’ve been there for a long time. I tried Plenty of Fish, Craigslist and I got no offers. A great photo, good profile helps, but the ratio of men to women online is about 2 to 1. My only advice to any guy who is a virgin after 30 is: develop dating skills ASAP, do a makeover if need be, and get out all you can. Women have never been more selective than they are today. They can get and do everything without men. This includes having kids and raising them. You are simply an afterthought. Read the book SAVE the Males by Kathleen Parker. The women’s movement did much good, but it totally wrecked the dating and mating patterns of this culture.
If you’re past 45, please stop dating American women. You will be rejected most of the time or be stuck settling for losers, trainwrecks, and
misfits. There might be some gems out there, but a friend of mine has done over 50 dates in four states with women of all backgrounds age
50-65. Nothing happened. Many women in middle age like the chase, but they have NO intention of ever being in a relationship. Marriage is almost impossible for anyone over 45 unless you’re a celebrity. Younger women look great, but they love risky behavior and often trade looks for what’s in your wallet. Know that going into the game with them. I have many regrets about my virginal status. I had 1-2 shots at getting laid years ago, but the women didn’t interest me. I would not pass up that offer if I could go back in time. The best girls to be with are the ones you grew up with.
Check out high school/college reunions. You might get lucky there. Good luck. For me it’s done, and being a celibate in middle age is much less stressful than the chase and rejection cycle so many guys must endure.

Aug 22, 2009 - 8:51 am

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