Pajamas Media

78 Comments

1. syn:

“We are very concerned over the rise to power of people who promote hatred”

Let’s hope they don’t go so far in promoting such extreme hatred they become worse than Sandra Bernhard, Joy Behar, Bill Maher, Alcee Hastings, Whoopie Goldberg, Keith Olbermann and various other extreme haters.

I mean, a woman threatening another woman that ’she’ll send her big black male friends to rape her if she should come to NYC’?

I fear this very disturbing tide of hatred too.

Oct 1, 2008 - 4:15 am 2. RightwingHippyChick:

Oh dear, that article is quite some spin, I don’t know where to start. Perhaps it’s better to just leave it, as a work of art and confusion by someone who appears to be completely clueless.

Hint: Nazis as we know them have died out by now or are very very old. Most of us are not interested in it either anymore, Nazis don’t exist as a political force at all(the NPD has more secret service moles than real members, laugh), and the few crazy people that still have Hakenkreuznostalgia are more of a joke than a serious movement. But of course, reality is rather boring, so let’s spice it up with some horror stories!

Oct 1, 2008 - 4:35 am 3. David H:

So a good example of Europes problems, and very well put by Robert Spencer recently, none of the mainstream European political parties take Islam seriously and do nothing to calm the fears of the people, instead they tell us its our fault and that we need to change, so now this is the result, talk about being between a rock and a hard place. Also parties like this are also standing up to the EU, which is needed, again this is an area neglected by the main political parties. So who are you left to vote for? Its not as simplistic as all Europeans are fascists, people like me are saying I do not want to live under Islam, so who will protect us? What a dreadful choice…, I had a good look at the BNP manifesto and came to the conclusion that it was a socialist party based on National Socialist principals as compared to International Socialist, which is why International Socialists hate them so much, what a mess.

Oct 1, 2008 - 5:04 am 4. syn:

“some horror stories”

Speaking of horror stories, did you hear about the one where Rabbis, Preachers, Priests and various other ‘religous leaders’ broke bread in solidarity with Iran madman Ahmadinejad(the guy who wants to kill all the Jews and Christians after which he’ll target his friends from the International Left) at the fancy hotel owned by US presidental candidate Barack Obama’s campaign finance director Penny Prizker?

Now this is the horror story Israelis should really worry about.

Oct 1, 2008 - 5:05 am 5. RE:

So Austrian have the choice of either accepting insane immigration policies or being labeled as right wing fascists by ignorant Americans?

Perhaps it is the European Left and ignorant Americans that are the bigger problem.

Oct 1, 2008 - 5:31 am 6. daniel:

It appears to me, as a Jewish European, that one cannot be a nationalist and speak German at the same time without being called a Nazi.

Which is quite a difference compared to a Holocaust denying anti-semite who urges the destruction of the only Jewish state in existance. But I guess that’s not a problem anybody should worry about, as he does not speak a language which is easily understood.

Oct 1, 2008 - 5:48 am 7. Mick Stockinger:

Looks like Mary is jonesing for a position as an Associated Press stringer.

I could have read crap like this in any socialist newspaper in Europe and been similarly unenlightened. She doesn’t have the slightest idea what Stache represents in Austria, or how Austria’s reaction to the Muslim invasion is typical of Europe generally. I am reminded of the aphorism that it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.

Oct 1, 2008 - 6:53 am 8. Markus:

Well, I hope they don’t make the mistake of indulging in anti-Semitism or even anti-zionism. They need Jewish allies.

I went to Germany and Austria this summer and really loved these countries and their people. I feel that the non-European immigration is changing their character for the worse.

I wish you had asked your taxi driver friend where his family came from, and how many European immigrants that country allows to enter on a permanent basis.

Can you name me a single non-Western country that seriously entertains the same insane opinion that a nation has no right to preserve its ethnic character?

The success of these parties is the natural result of the unrestricted immigration and forced multiculturalism that you, Mary, see as a necessary corrollary to the doctrine that “all men are created equal.” Much as it would cheer you to see Vienna into Beirut or L.A., perhaps Austria is not going down without a fight.

Oct 1, 2008 - 7:32 am 9. Eric:

Not to restate too much of what’s already been said but if the mainstream European political parties cared more about their indigenous populations than they do about preserving their power via insane immigration policies then “right wing” reactionary parties would have remained fringe parties. But since the socialists/Leftists in power throughout Europe are obsessed with multiculturalism, wracked with guilt over colonialism, starting two world wars, and being white, they pursue policies that are guaranteed to destroy Europe. Anti-immigration parties are rapidly gaining power across Europe and Europeans are forced to turn to organizations that aren’t afraid of being called “racists” or “fascists” by the elites in the media, politics, and academia to make sure their countries, cultures, and societies are preserved for their progeny.
Islam is determined to conquer Europe and even Khadaffi said in 2006 that immigration would do the job that swords have failed to do, make Europe Islamic.
The Muslims have a long term strategy of conquest and they are so far succeeding brilliantly aided by opportunistic politicians and useful idiots.
Europe should be our canary in the coal mine. Uncontrolled immigration and other Liberal/socialist policies will eventually bring strife and perhaps war as people finally rebel against the oppression of the state.
The next decade or so will determine whether Europe will live or die. Let’s hope for the sake of the West that they act on nature’s impulse for self-preservation.

Oct 1, 2008 - 8:50 am 10. Mary Madigan:

Which is quite a difference compared to a Holocaust denying anti-semite who urges the destruction of the only Jewish state in existance. But I guess that’s not a problem anybody should worry about, as he does not speak a language which is easily understood.

The Israeli government is not concerned about Heinz Christian Strache because he speaks German, they’re concerned because he’s allied his party with Iran. Austrian Jews, who also speak German, are concerned because Strache hopes to give known neo-Nazis influential government jobs.

Looks like Mary is jonesing for a position as an Associated Press stringer.

If I wanted a position as an AP stringer, I would have defined Strache as a “right-wing” politician. But I called him anti-Immigrant, because he doesn’t fit the American definition of right-wing or conservative. He’s not in favor of equal opportunity for all citizens, he believes that state programs, not individual effort, will solve Austria’s problems. His freedom party follows the national socialist model of winning votes by promising ‘real’ Austrians great benefits. Their slogan was “Social, not socialist!”

Hitler didn’t win the love of the German people by promising to murder millions of Jews. He promised Germans security, he promised to remove the bad elements and he promised a revival of all that was good in German culture. No one who has reached any position of power in Europe is stupid enough to say or openly do anything that will label them as a Nazi. They’ll avoid any sign of anti-Semitism like the plague. Jorg Haider, Heinz Christian Strache’s mentor, deliberately chose a Jew to be second-in-command of his party.

In 1996, Haider said:

the presence of a Jew in the anti-immigrant Freedom Party could improve his group’s standing in the Parliament, which routinely deals with such issues as human rights, xenophobia and anti-Semitism.

“We will probably be less vulnerable, less open for attacks”

These groups have been playing this game for years.

Oct 1, 2008 - 9:02 am 11. Guy de La Fald:

A Dental Hygienist has risen to this kind of influence? Wow, kinda reminds me of another group of individuals in the late 20’s and early 30’s that rose to “power”.

Oct 1, 2008 - 9:15 am 12. dan:

Someone above mentioned the unfortunate fact that one cannot be a native German and German nationalist – probably signifying “patriot” – without being called a Nazi. I agree this is a problem. It is obviously unfair. The Left, of course, advocates an end to traditional national sympathies as a predicate to the realization of the socialist state, and demonizes all non-Left as “fascists.” Never mind, of course, that it was precisely socialist excesses in the wake of the First World War that caused most of Europe to cleave to actual fascist movements as the only voice for their simple, quite natural affinity for their own cultural habits and monuments. And now with the ongoing leftist idiocy even Germans born in every decade after 1945 have to feel guilt about the period between 1933-1945, as if it were a genetic predisposition. Even I, who believes strongly that it was Germany who deliberately caused both World War II *and* I, knows this is grossly unfair.

In fact, it is my curious opinion that if only we could conclude, as a culture, that Germany *was* in fact to blame for World War I, rather than “the imperial system,” and that sympathy for German culture and political identity is simply natural familial affinity, and not “fascism,” we could actually knock out two of the biggest historical pillars of the Leftist narrative. But in any case, Germany will not be able to express itself in a healthy way with this absurd and unfair albatross around its neck. And history shows that a Germany expressing itself in unhealthy ways is, eventually, unhealthy for all of us.

Oct 1, 2008 - 9:30 am 13. julia:

@ RightwingHippyChick, what a spin, yes.

I am Austrian and all people I know where shocked by the results of the elections.

Best to answer with an article ? I did so on twitter.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2
008/09/30/do3003.xml

I linked my comment-name to it, so lets declare: it is not written by me

Peace

Oct 1, 2008 - 9:37 am 14. Mary Madigan:

I went to Germany and Austria this summer and really loved these countries and their people. I feel that the non-European immigration is changing their character for the worse.

I visited Britain a few years ago, and I understood why people were so worried about the capital turning into “Londonistan”. Muslim attitudes and dress were so dominant in so many neighborhoods in the city, I was surprised that the Brits were still allowed to have pubs.

But I didn’t see that kind of cultural imperialism in Vienna. Maybe I didn’t go to the right neighborhoods (we have a tendency to avoid native British food in favor of curry shops, while Austrian food is too good to pass up) The city didn’t seem to be dominated by Saudi and Emirate influence.

Much as it would cheer you to see Vienna into Beirut or L.A., perhaps Austria is not going down without a fight.

I would be happy to see Vienna turn into Copenhagen. Violent and extreme Islamism doesn’t come from multiculturalism, it comes from Saudi and Iranian imperialism. Extremist groups like Hizb-ut-Tahrir, Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood are powerful because they’re supported by petrodollar-fueled fascist regimes. The Danish Cartoon jihad was manufactured in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Europe is not the source of the problem.

Supposedly “anti-Muslim” groups like Strache’s Freedom Party want to ally with Iran. Can you name a single anti-Immigrant group that publicly confronts the Islamofascist regimes who are responsible for extremism in Europe? I can’t.

With their cartoons and with their willingness to defy Saudi and Iranian demands for submission to Sharia, the Danes are waging a true war against Islamofascism. I hope that Europe will follow their lead.

Oct 1, 2008 - 9:59 am 15. Bill Perron:

Islam will win the war because they know they are at war while the weak willed socialists of Europe sleep. One day soon Europeans will wake up but it will be to late. Bow to Mecca infadels or die, will become written into the constitutions of all European countries. The Prophet has spoken.

Oct 1, 2008 - 10:22 am 16. Markus:

The J-Post article asserts that Stache is an ally of Iran, and an opponent of stiffer sanctions. There is no corroboration, but if true, he is being tactically stupid, giving tradition-hating liberals (I using this word in traditional sense, not in its American perversion) like you an excuse to frighten people away from them. He needs to bend over backwards to reassure Jews and Judeophiles that he is anti-Nazi and pro-Israel. The stakes are too high. He’ll be opposed by anti-white leftists anyway, he can’t afford to become anathema to non-leftists, particular liberals concerned about the secularism.

Regarding the glory of Danish multiculturalism, perhaps you’re referring to these new “sharia courts”:
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/09/denmark-internal-justice-in-muslim.html

BTW, those Islamofascist regimes are not responsible for Turkish honor killings in Germany. And they are not responsible for Somali criminality in Finland and Sweden, or West Indian and African criminality in England.

Oct 1, 2008 - 10:48 am 17. jdm:

I would be happy to see Vienna turn into Copenhagen. Violent and extreme Islamism doesn’t come from multiculturalism[...]

I’m pretty sure the residents of the Noerrebro neighborhood are not all that keen about recent developments. Nor those in Ishoej. Nor Gellerup (in Aarhus) or Vollsmose (in Odense). The latter is now also understood to be practicing sharia.

And the reason “[v]iolent and extreme Islamism doesn’t come from multiculturalism” is that it’s not necessary to get violent. Multiculturalism pretty much guarantees a complete surrender to regular, old Islam anyway.

Oct 1, 2008 - 10:58 am 18. jerry:

The United States is poised to elect a real live totalitarian to the White House. We have lost our right to lecture others on extremist politicians. It’s a shame that the American electorate has lost its desire to live in a Republic.

Oct 1, 2008 - 11:02 am 19. dougf:

Well if ‘certain’ social issues are considered distasteful and ‘out-of-bounds’ by the ‘good’ Parties, it stands to reason that these issues will then be championed by ‘bad’ Parties.

The problem arises when these un-issues are objectively both important to the society, and emotive to the population. In these circumstances the ‘elites’ find themselves talking amonst themselves while the ‘rabble’ find their voices elsewhere. This is a very serious problem. If our ‘correct’ leaders won’t or can’t deal with ‘distasteful’ areas of conflict, the problems don’t magically go away. They just get adopted by some really very unpleasant and dangerous sorts of people who then become a lot more influential and popular than they could ever otherwise hop to be.

It’s foolish to blame these neo-Nazis for the fact that they might get 30% of the vote. Thy are just picking up the social pieces deliberately left there by the ‘elites’. If you don’t want social flotsam to become important then address the underlying problems that they use to advance themselves. Don’t just pontificate mindlessly that all is for he best, in this best of all possible worlds.

Srikes me that that attitude didn’t work out very well for Herr Pangloss when it first appeared. No reason to believe it has improved with age.

What ME worry ?

Maybe someone should start.

Oct 1, 2008 - 11:18 am 20. David H:

Mary asked:

Can you name a single anti-Immigrant group that publicly confronts the Islamofascist regimes who are responsible for extremism in Europe? I can’t.

Vlaams Belang, and they publicly support Israel

Oct 1, 2008 - 11:50 am 21. David H:

Mary asked

Can you name a single anti-Immigrant group that publicly confronts the Islamofascist regimes who are responsible for extremism in Europe? I can’t.

Vlaams Belang in Belgium and they publicly support Israel.

Oct 1, 2008 - 11:51 am 22. steveaz:

This article is agitprop by a disgruntled opponent, not a reasoned political essay.

Any political party that openly opposes unfettered immigration is immediately labeled “Nazi,” or “Right Wing,” by the media. The terms have become rote, empty insults used to tar anyone who opposes the Progressive’s grand projects.

Watch how the terms get bandied about when a President McCain tries to tackle America’s illegal immigration problem next year.

Or, for contrast, see how the terms suddenly disappear if a President Obama institutes race-based preferences for mortgages or college-admissions. Same goes for Arabists who are overtly anti-semitic – the term Nazi is never applied to them, either.

Just who is a Nazi in today’s political climate afterall? The answer is anyone who the progressive media don’t like.

Oct 1, 2008 - 12:08 pm 23. Mary Madigan:

BTW, those Islamofascist regimes are not responsible for Turkish honor killings in Germany. And they are not responsible for Somali criminality in Finland and Sweden, or West Indian and African criminality in England.

Islamofascist regimes are responsible for most of the violent political groups in Europe, but a pathetic police presence and weak, pacifist governments are responsible for the current crime wave over there.

In England, self-defense is, literally, against the law. The police in France, Britain, and other countries are afraid to go into gang-controlled areas. Europe is starting to sound like the South Bronx during the ’80s.

Most of the problems in the South Bronx and in NYC were the results of ineffective government and police policies. The problem was mostly solved by Rudy Giuliani’s efforts to bring more police into the community, and to stop tolerating criminal activity.

Rudy wasn’t a big fan of using guns in self defense, but he did work with Neighborhood Watch Groups like the (multi-culti) Guardian angels. If European governments were willing to follow those policies, they could probably also reduce gang violence.

Oct 1, 2008 - 12:14 pm 24. Markus:

For some reason, Mary, that “pathetic police presence” and those “weak, pacifist governments” have not caused an increase in the rate of crime committed by native Europeans. I wonder why.

Oct 1, 2008 - 12:46 pm 25. Markus:

For some reason, Mary, that “pathetic police presence” and those “weak, pacifistic governments” have not resulted in a crime wave among native Europeans. I wonder why.

Oct 1, 2008 - 12:48 pm 26. Ex-pat:

Mary, you got some of this right, some of it very badly wrong. As a conservative American Jew living in Austria, I can tell you the recent elections were nothing short of sensational. The Socialiast Faymann was backed by the biggest paper, Der Kroner Zeitung. The other papers are all mostly ineffectual, at least in terms of readership. Despite this huge support from a paper that enjoys a readership ratio higher than any American paper, the left lost, badly.

In fact, all the middle parties lost seats to the benefit of the right and far-right. Why? The socialist Left (SPO) and center-right (OVP) presided over a failed an ineffective government coalition (in the parliamentary sense of the word). The Socialists promised all kinds of crazy benefits to the people (not unlike Obama’s promises, with no explanation of how to pay).

So, yes, Stracher and Haider did rise in influence. But the widely cited reason by nearly all Austrian papers was their anti-EU sentiment. Austria has benefited greatly through business with Eastern Europe. Much as we hear hackles about D.C. in the U.S., Brussels is equally despised throughout Austria.

Is all this to say that Stracher and Haider are not anti-Semites? No. They very well could be, at least privately. At the very most, they have the zeal of Tim Tancredo on the immigration issue — and if you’d spent more than a few fleeting moments in Vienna, let alone any of the working class neighborhoods in the local environs or the province of Carinthia, you’d understand why.

Oct 1, 2008 - 1:39 pm 27. Mary Madigan:

For some reason, Mary, that “pathetic police presence” and those “weak, pacifist governments” have not caused an increase in the rate of crime committed by native Europeans.

Yes, it has. For example, in Denmark, white drug gangs (like Hell’s Angels) are battling Muslim drug gangs.

Since many white youths believe that the Hell’s Angels are the only people ‘fighting back’, they’re trying to join this drug gang. If the same thing is happening in other countries, we can expect to see an increase in ‘native’ European criminal activity.

By refusing to control crime in ‘off limits’ immigrant neighborhoods, pacifist European governments could be creating a situation similar to the one in Lebanon, where a militia-run state-within-a-state destroys the cohesion of a society.

In New York, we could have blamed the problems on Hispanic immigrants, but that would ignore the fact that Hispanic cops and Hispanic neighborhood watch groups put an end to criminal activity in their neighborhoods, with the government’s help.

Oct 1, 2008 - 1:49 pm 28. Nazis~Nationalism and Immigration Debate (Conservatives Need To Intelligently Argue This) « Zipline Conservative:

[...] http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/austrian-party-that-wants-to-bring-back-nazi-imagery-wins-big/2/ [...]

Oct 1, 2008 - 1:50 pm 29. Guy:

It’s amazing how people have been deluded into thinking that Nazis are right wing. Nazis are, and always have been left wing. In fact the word “Nazi” is a contraction of the German words national and socialist. The Nazi party is the National Socialist party of Germany. The leftists love to reclessly throw around the word Nazi. The next time one does, make sure to point out their ignorance.

Oct 1, 2008 - 2:11 pm 30. chuck,:

These people and the Israelis are natural allies; who benefits when they quarrel? The EU regime and their Islamic imports.

Oct 1, 2008 - 2:31 pm 31. cedarford:

Mary – Most of the problems in the South Bronx and in NYC were the results of ineffective government and police policies. The problem was mostly solved by Rudy Giuliani’s efforts to bring more police into the community, and to stop tolerating criminal activity.

That is basically blaming the government for failing to control a population with a propensity for criminality and immoral conduct – rather than blame the scumbags themselves.

Plenty of human societies out there conduct themselves civilly and ethically with NO govenment enforcers needed to keep order. Including America, which at one time had no huge police force or Fed Gov’t “hero-rescuers” available in cities afflicted with disasters.

Same thing happened in the NYC blackout in the 80s that launched black looting sprees – it was all the fault of the utility company, or the cops.
The NOLA scum that boiled up in anarchy after Katrina? Why that was all Bush’s fault, the cops fault…never the precious darling’s fault!
Meanwhile, the same year that Katrina happened, Mumbai India was flooded. 11 million people. No Federal “hero-rescuers”, no cops able to move..
Result? No looting. People behaved themselves. The city recovered largely on it’s own. No “emergency ice”. No plush hotel rooms for “Mumbai refugees”. They cleaned up after the 8 foot-high flood receeded and were back in business in 3 months.

Oct 1, 2008 - 2:36 pm 32. Helen:

Wouldn’t it be nice if PJM published articles about politics in European countries by people who know those countries and not just travel in them?

Oct 1, 2008 - 3:01 pm 33. Steynian 260 « Free Mark Steyn!:

[...] SHADES OF ADOLF: Austrian Party That Wants to Bring Back Nazi Imagery Wins Big …. [...]

Oct 1, 2008 - 4:28 pm 34. Mary Madigan:

Grüß Gott, Helen. I lived for a year in Saarbrücken, Germany, near the French border. When I was a kid I made regular trips to visit relatives in Britain and Ireland, and I’d often get a chance to visit the Continent (which was a lot cheaper in those days) My family was very aware of European politics. I know enough about the issues, the societies and the languages to know when unusual and/or negative changes are occurring.

Melanie Phillips, conservative writer and resident of Britain also sees this election in a negative light. In her article “The Distant Sound of Breaking Glass”, she says:

“This presents a nightmarish prospect in which, if the democratic parties of Europe continue to demonise legitimate aspirations to maintain national cultures against undemocratic and anti-democratic forces, more and more people will be drawn to these parties – see the sophisticated pitch by and increasing support for the BNP in Britain, and social disorder will rise.”

Oct 1, 2008 - 6:50 pm 35. Mary Madigan:

Plenty of human societies out there conduct themselves civilly and ethically with NO govenment enforcers needed to keep order. Including America, which at one time had no huge police force or Fed Gov’t “hero-rescuers” available in cities afflicted with disasters.
Same thing happened in the NYC blackout in the 80s that launched black looting sprees – it was all the fault of the utility company, or the cops.

My mom was caught in the middle of the NYC blackout of ‘77, I was in NYC during the recent blackout (2003) and our stories are completely different. She saw a society that was falling apart, and I saw ordinary people helping each other and directing traffic. The city government was, as far as I could see, just as incompetent at dealing with disaster as they were in ‘77. But the citizens of NYC 2003 liked and respected their city, because of the changes Giuliani had made (and because of the way he made those changes, working with independent neighborhood groups).

But the story of the young people in Denmark, hoping to join drug gangs because this is the only way they can fight immigrant crime, is haunting. We can blame the Danish government for not enforcing the law, but we also have to blame the Muslim community and their tolerance of crime and extremists for this kind of thing. They really had to work overtime to get the ultra-civilized, ultra-tolerant Danes to dislike them that much.

Oct 1, 2008 - 7:04 pm 36. Shawn:

So what would we call all those concerned kids demonstrating for the preservation of Tibetin culture? Tibetin Nazi Skin heads? Why is Jewish or Tibetin nationalism okay but Europeans trying to perserve their own culture wrong?

Oct 1, 2008 - 7:11 pm 37. Evil Pundit:

For decades now, every politician or party that has expressed any concern about multiculturalism or creeping Islamisation has been condemned as far-right and Nazi-like.

I have grown weary of these false alarms. Wake me up when there’s something real to worry about.

Oct 1, 2008 - 7:23 pm 38. Benjamin:

It’s called free speech idiots. Censorship is completely wrong and intellectually dishonest. What we have is ultra-politically correctness destroying free speech. It’s horrible to any normal person, but perfectly acceptable to socialists like Mary who are all pro-censorship.

Oct 1, 2008 - 8:49 pm 39. David H:

Mary, don’t forget your challenge which I answered on Vlaams Balang, and of course what about Geert Wilders and his party? I don’t know how anyone with a brain can remotely think that Mr Wilders is a fascist by the way.

Oct 2, 2008 - 4:38 am 40. David H:

“Yes, it has. For example, in Denmark, white drug gangs (like Hell’s Angels) are battling Muslim drug gangs. Since many white youths believe that the Hell’s Angels are the only people ‘fighting back’, they’re trying to join this drug gang. If the same thing is happening in other countries, we can expect to see an increase in ‘native’ European criminal activity.”

There has always been crime in Europe, however this is different, first of all Denmark was really one of the safest countries in Europe and 30 years ago people had their doors unlocked and violent crime was very rare, not the case now. It is not the natives who are more criminal, the new Europeans are the issue. People are getting fed up being beaten to a pulp and now we see the start of militias which you talk about in your next sentence:

“By refusing to control crime in ‘off limits’ immigrant neighborhoods, pacifist European governments could be creating a situation similar to the one in Lebanon, where a militia-run state-within-a-state destroys the cohesion of a society.”

Spot on with that comment, that is what is happening, but oh no, you fall for it or destroy it with your next comment:

“In New York, we could have blamed the problems on Hispanic immigrants, but that would ignore the fact that Hispanic cops and Hispanic neighborhood watch groups put an end to criminal activity in their neighborhoods, with the government’s help.”

So now you give Muslim Imams and Muslim community groups power and influence and even worse to create their own enclaves, I can’t talk about Hispanic groups, but in terms of Muslims they will bite you army off at the elbow for this, its exactly what they want. Its been tried across Europe and now it is their area, Non-Muslims are being driven out and those no-go areas which we are told do not exist by idiots like Gordan Brown become more and more obvious. How many 72 year old men need to get beaten to a pulp walking into a self-declared Muslim area in mistake for people to realise this?

You are showing the classic case of thinking that they think like you, read the Quran and the Hadiths and then start thinking like them, it might not do much for your sanity, but at least you might start understanding it better…

Oct 2, 2008 - 5:30 am 41. Scion9:

What Guiliani did was put his foot down. He did bring real change and real policies, but the biggest thing he did was provide desperately needed leadership. Sometimes the gesture of not putting up with any more crap is enough.

In Europe, unfortunately, I find it unlike a ‘Law and Order’ type politician that will not roll over for Muslims is going to be enough. Those more radical segments of the Muslim community, who operate with complete impunity among their co-religionists, are not going to be thwarted by law enforcement at this point.

Guiliani was dealing predominantly with Americans, that had no bones about being American. These Muslims don’t view themselves as European at all, nor do they have a desire to be so. They will fight.

I think Europeans need to reconcile with themselves when they align themselves with these reactionary parties, what exactly it is they think they are going to accomplish and how they are going to accomplish it.

Oct 2, 2008 - 5:35 am 42. David H:

Scion9, I had this debate with an American once before and I shocked him with my comment but I was basing this on Pinochet of Chile.

There may be a way back from Fascism, but there is no way back from Islamism.

In reply to your question, do I want to align myself with these type of people, hell no, but your question is what am I hoping to accomplish, hopefully a block on further Muslim immigration.

It all creates pressure on the ruling class the further they get away from the people as they are now, the more extreme the voting to get their notice, they have a complete disconnect from the normal man in the streets view, they have total contempt for us, the little people too stupid to understand great matters of state…

In a democracy that is no longer functioning properly like Europe where many of the decisions are now taken by unelected people that is all that we have left, a protest vote.

Now Austra has agreed the Lisbon treaty so in effect they will have to accept the EU policy on immigration, so I suppose that now becomes a protest vote or maybe a vote towards leaving the EU, but it is only 30% of the voters, its not enough which is why France hardly bothered to even yawn…

Oct 2, 2008 - 7:37 am 43. Mary Madigan:

So now you give Muslim Imams and Muslim community groups power and influence and even worse to create their own enclaves, I can’t talk about Hispanic groups, but in terms of Muslims they will bite you army off at the elbow for this, its exactly what they want.

A Muslim, a Mr. Ibrahim Sargin (who, presumably, has read the Koran) wrote a letter in 2004 to the London Times describing why these efforts to ‘reach out’ to the Muslim community would fail. Apparently, the British government was “reaching out” to the worst, most hyper-radical groups. Sargin said:

Sir: The problem with organizations such as the Muslim Association of Britain, the Muslim Parliament and the Muslim Council of Britain is that they portray themselves as one-stop representatives of Muslims on all religious, political and racial matters. This is enhanced by the fact that the Government and other political entities wish to “consult” with ethnic and religious communities.

I choose to define my community as the people with whom I interact and choose to be represented by the political party for which I vote. Why should I, in community terms, have more in common with a Muslim from Bradford than with a Jew from Tonttenham or a Christian from Ramsgate? ..

One need only walk down a main street in this part of London to see that there are many Muslims who do not necessarily define themselves primarily by their religion. We do not all subscribe to the same way of being a Muslim, neither do we push our religious beliefs into the civic and political sphere.
Sadly the public does not always get our point of view, because the only Muslims who are consulted are those who choose to drag Islam into the political sphere and relate it to issues such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Our civic duty, like that of any other Briton, consists of abiding by the law of the land and our civic right is to be represented through the ballot box, not by organizations that are vested with an authority they do not deserve.

Mr. Giuliani has never been a fan of identity politics, and he knows better than to reach out to a Tony Soprano in an effort to curb mob violence. Apparently, European leaders didn’t know better. Our government makes the same mistake, talking to Saudi-funded CAIR, ignoring genuine liberals like M. Zuhdi Jasser. It’s not clear why they do that…

Oct 2, 2008 - 7:45 am 44. Pankukas:

Mary,

I can’t think of what can actually be achieved by taking, for instance, Strache’s answer in an interview, where he states he is in favour of open discussion as to whether anti-Nazi legislation still serves its original purpose, and spin that into gross mischaracterisation like: “Wants to Bring Back Nazi Imagery”. I can point, say, to article by Gerard Alexander by AEI: “Illiberal Europe:
The long and growing list of things you can’t legally say”, and argue that discussion about necessity of this legislation should, at least, be a debatable proposition… without being labeled Nazi if one states so.

What is the goal and strategy in trying to pin the Nazi label on FPÖ – something Strache denies his party is or aspires to become?

Isolating them, embarrassing into silence those who are not convinced they are Nazis and would support, for instance, their positions on EU, immigration, Islamic fundamentalism? In a hope that FPÖ will somehow be “contained” while Austrian political system comes up with better alternative?

Putting a Nazi (or racist) label on somebody is signal that any discussion with person or political organisation is impossible. It may well silence at least some of “Nazi sympathisers” — their voters and supporters — as well. Being seen as “Nazi sympathiser” or racist is nor without consequences, and most “average people” will not want to be seen publicly as anything of that kind. I don’t think “Nazi labeling” can change political views and preferences, however, and people will still use the safety and privacy of ballot box to express them.

I wish that FPÖ, in addition to their positions on EU, immigration, Islamic fundamentalism, were pro-Israel and pro-American. At the same time I realise that is unlikely if all they are met with is “Nazi labeling”, trying to cordon them off and punish Austria — all that happened in 2000, when they entered government, repeated once gain. Vlaams Belang is said at least by some to be pro-American and pro-Israeli — has that changed anything in how they are perceived and spoken about?

Oct 2, 2008 - 8:08 am 45. Pope Linus:

This guy Strache probably is a douchebag, but enough with calling him and his ilk “right wing.” The one key difference between fascism and leftist socialism and communism is that the former is nationalistic in its socialism and statism, and the latter are internationalist in theirs.

Mary, perhaps what is needed is an explanation contrasting “right wing” ideology in Europe versus in America. I don’t know anyone on the right in America who advocates socialism or any type of big government statism.

Oct 2, 2008 - 8:16 am 46. David H:

Its truly a difficult one Mary, the question on this has to be also is how representative of the Muslim population is Mr Sargin. He might well reject certain verses and see them as being relevent to the past. But what is his position in Islam, does he have a role, does he issue fatwas? Does he have followers, can he speak for fellow Muslims, as they identify themselves as Muslims they obviously have a hierachy. Scholars of the Quran have much more weight, we in our arrogance cannot pick and chose those we like either.

He may be upset by the community leaders he has, but the issue is that Islam does have a structure and that the Imam, those that study the science of the Quran and the devout have a higher status. So we reach out to Muslims like Mr Sargin who has no weight in the Muslim society, he will most probably be castiagted as an unbeliever and forced to go into hiding.

I don’t know, for years I came across people like this, but now the words of Edrogen keep ringing in my ears, there is no moderate or extreme Islam, there is just Islam.

One interesting aspect of your comment at the end he mentioned the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that is actually a political strategy of the Muslim Brotherhood, so he could be the real thing based on that last comment.

Oct 2, 2008 - 8:27 am 47. Rubicon:

Despite what some say, a little nationalism is not necessarily a bad thing. Many in America want international cooperation, but they also want to remain a separate constitutional republic. That does not make them Nazi or anything close, but the media have decided if you are not a left wing Democrat you are a right wing Nazi extremist.
The socialism of the left is calling for bigger govt. & significantly more spending for programs they say will solve our problems. As I listen to these prognostications, I hear eerie echoes of Hitler types telling the German people his party will also solve their problems.
I am a conservative. I am a Christian. I am a Republican. None of those makes me someone who would even begin to support any principle concept of National Socialism.
Such also does NOT make me a Nazi, fascist, or an extremist. I want immigration controlled, but that does not make me a racist. I just want less government, less taxes, less intrusion into my daily life, with less regulations on almost anything one can conceive to regulate.
I want a representative government whose elected officials respond to the will of the people. I do not want some unelected bureaucrat deciding how my life, my country, or anything else, is to operate.
Radical political groups grow out of the frustration of the people when elected or unelected officials begin to govern in a manner that fails to reflect what “the people” want for themselves! People get caught up in a political platform, ignoring the bad because the good parts are emphasized. Unfortunately many of the bad policies tend to end up dictating party policy once some achieve power.
If what is happening in America today is the result of globalization, perhaps its not such a good idea!?!

Oct 2, 2008 - 9:44 am 48. Mary Madigan:

the issue is that Islam does have a structure and that the Imam, those that study the science of the Quran and the devout have a higher status. So we reach out to Muslims like Mr Sargin who has no weight in the Muslim society, he will most probably be castiagted as an unbeliever and forced to go into hiding.

The people who have status in Muslim society are usually the people who have the most money and the biggest mosques. Most of that money comes from extremist Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia. 80% of American mosques are funded in some way by the Saudis. CAIR, an organization that is supposed to represent American muslims, is also funded almost entirely by Saudi money. Most of the American members of the organization quit after 9/11.

These high-status people don’t represent the majority. They represent their donors.

Mr. Sargin isn’t suggesting that Britain’s leaders should reach out to him specifically and he’s arguing against the idea of reaching out specifically to Muslims. When he says “I choose to define my community as the people with whom I interact and choose to be represented by the political party for which I vote. Why should I, in community terms, have more in common with a Muslim from Bradford than with a Jew from Tonttenham or a Christian from Ramsgate? ..” he’s arguing against playing the identity politics game.

He also implies that the Muslims with the most connections to terrorism are probably the Muslims the government has been talking to.

If we don’t play the identity politics game, then we deal with people according to what they’ve done, not what they are. If the government wants suggestions about how to deal with Muslim crime, they should talk to all members of the community, not just supposedly high-status Muslims.

Oct 2, 2008 - 10:02 am 49. Markus:

Mary, that’s just great. A few Hispanics are opposed to the lawlessness and violence among recent Hispanic immigrants, and somehow this is supposed to be an improvement on the situation before any of these immigrants arrived.

Coming from more of a traditionalist, paleocon viewpoint, I probably see things different than a lot of people here. I heard Robert Fisk on Pacifica this morning opining (about Iraq, Afghanistan) “it’s not our land, it doesn’t belong to us, we shouldn’t be there, we need to get out.” I tend to agree. But why can’t Europeans and Americans say the same thing, or at least say that we’re going to regulate and democratically decide on who we invite to stay with us?

“I think Europeans need to reconcile with themselves when they align themselves with these reactionary parties, what exactly it is they think they are going to accomplish and how they are going to accomplish it.”

A reasonable concern. The two big things needed are a reversal of demographic trends, and a strict insistence on assimilation of current non-native Europeans. Most changes that need to take place are cultural and sociological, amd about elite attitudes, etc.. Challenge guilt about Western civ/whiteness/imperialism. Most of all, many more babies! Politically, I think parties ought to work for elimination of “hate language” and censorship restrictions, keep Turkey out of EU, and end further immigration from former European colonies. Encourage immigration into Europe from Europeans descendents in South Africa, Israel, America. At the same time, reiterate that non-natives who are citizens are entitled to full civil and political rights.

But please, Europe is not America! Europe has no greater moral imperative to invite foreigners to become Europeans than Japan, China, Israel, Turkey or Saudi Arabia have obligations to offer their citizenship to Europeans.

Oct 2, 2008 - 10:52 am 50. Richard Miniter:

Ms. Madigan,

The cab driver interview trope is so dated. Why didn’t you interview party officials or pollsters or professors–someone who is following Austrian politics with some degree of seriousness and access?

second, the Nazis are coming back has been a left-wing theme since the 1950s in European politics. And it has always been wrong. The Nazi movement was born of unique circumstances (hyper-inflation, broad anti-Semitism etc). The economic conditions in Austria in no way resemble the 1920s and 30s and anti-Semitism in no longer widely accepted, outside of immigrant communities. A Nazi takeover is no more plausible than a communist takeover–yes a few people believe odious things, but outside the fringes, no one agrees.

third, you don’t seem to have interviewed any one from the Freedom party. Why? Too busy watching uncomfortable encounters on the sidewalk? I suspect what you see as racist attitudes towards immigrants is actually loathing of crime, which has soared since the mid 1990s when Yugoslav refugees began arriving. And euro-skepticism is not Nazism, either. Rightly or not, many Austrians blame the poor performance of their economy on the EU.

The only way blogs are going to replace the MSM is if bloggers are willing to do a little work. Your article shows how far bloggers have to go…

Oct 2, 2008 - 11:06 am 51. Henrik Krog:

Um, Miss Madigan:

The Times article you link says no such thing as that the FPÖ “seeks to bring back Nazi symbols and salutes”.

It wants to abolish a law making using such symbols and salutes a criminal offense. Ie, they want to bring Austrian freedom of expression in line with that of, fex, the USA.

Henrik

Oct 2, 2008 - 11:36 am 52. David H:

“I choose to define my community as the people,” many Muslims do not they define their community as a Muslim one first, he makes a good point and I agree with him and you on what he is saying, but from what I have seen the majority of Muslims do not think like him, to change that requires role models, I don’t seem them and until that happens voices like his are few and far between

Oct 2, 2008 - 12:15 pm 53. Mary Madigan:

The Times article you link says no such thing as that the FPÖ “seeks to bring back Nazi symbols and salutes”

Henrik – are you talking about the article titled “Austrian voters support party that wants to bring back Nazi symbols”?

Oct 2, 2008 - 12:43 pm 54. Mary Madigan:

Why didn’t you interview party officials or pollsters or professors–someone who is following Austrian politics with some degree of seriousness and access?

Mr. Miniter – When I went to Beirut on the same trip, that was a ‘working’ vacation. I made a point of visiting with people who were influential in the March 14th movement, and I talked to people from different sects. My goal was to write about how Beirut had changed since I was there in 2006.

Vienna was the ‘lite’ part of the vacation. My goal was to do some hiking and some bungee jumping. So, yes, this article is not the product of journalistic ambition. If it’s judged according to those merits it does come up short.

However, my visit did make me aware of an election that most Americans were not aware of. I would not have thought of suggesting the article if I hadn’t read about how the Israelis reacted to the possibility of Strache’s victory. Their reaction convinced me that this was news worth printing.

But no, it’s not real journalism, and it’s not a proper feature article. If Pajamas Media would like to sponsor a return trip to Europe for me to interview members of the Freedom Party, as well as supporters of the OVP, the SPÖ, Jorg Haider’s BZÖ and the Greens, I could assemble a comprehensive feature article. It would also be interesting to talk to Filip de Winter of Vlaams Belang and the left leaning Antifa groups who opposed (and apparently attacked) Strache’s “Cities against Islamisation” group. I’m very curious about the situation over there, and I would like to learn more about it too.

Oct 2, 2008 - 1:00 pm 55. Mary Madigan:

I agree with him and you on what he is saying, but from what I have seen the majority of Muslims do not think like him, to change that requires role models, I don’t seem them and until that happens voices like his are few and far between

It isn’t clear how many Muslims would agree with Sargin, and it’s hard to tell when most of their leaders are mostly concerned with promoting Saudi interests.

However, I think his advice, that the British Government shouldn’t be dealing with the Muslim Association of Britain, the Muslim Parliament and the Muslim Council of Britain, was right.

Oct 2, 2008 - 1:52 pm 56. Tim:

On a blog a few weeks ago someone assumed I was black and offered me $2500 for a one way ticket to any country I thought “treated blacks better than in the USA.”

That sounded quite Austrian to me.

She or he shut up when I asked her/him what “better than the USA” meant.

Oct 2, 2008 - 10:50 pm 57. David H:

Well yes, but your assuming that the current British government is competent and know what they are doing, terrorism carried out by Islamic terrorists are called anti-Islamic acts, the lights are on but no one is home. I come from the point of view that there is nothing moderate about Islam and that Muslims are only moderate because they chose to ignore or reject core verses of the Quran.

I should point out clearly, many Americans see Neo Nazis in every Europen standing up for his culture, I like and respect America, I often wish I was born in America, you are without any doubt the best country on Earth.

But this linkage to racism is rather tedious and is based around your own countries hang up based on the slavery of the past, which was mainly southern states, though segregation was more of an issue in my view as in was insidious. You had a civil war partially over slavery, while the British Empire spent lots of money and many lives attacking the slave trade following Wilberforces noble efforts.

The Islamic world was the biggest slavers on Earth and still are…

We have nothing to be guilty of, and calling me and other Europeans a racist (because that is what using Neo-Nazi is really saying) because I want to stand up for my CULTURE is not fair and not correct, even when the few Neo-Nazis get involved in standing up for their culture, why tar me with the same brush, when I have to make choices for which politicians will do the most against the current threat.

Nazis were socialists, but nationalistic socialists rather than International Socialists, now people like me who are social capitalists and who see Islam as a major threat are called racists or Nazis, while I Nazis as the people stopping a lawful gathering in Cologne and beating a French Jew so badly they broke his ribs. People should note who the real Nazis are.

The democracy in the USA still functions, you have to be a comedian to think that democracy is working in the EU. Its a false democracy and that is one of the reasons for a party like this to get such a high vote.

Oct 3, 2008 - 5:06 am 58. Mary Madigan:

but your assuming that the current British government is competent and know what they are doing

Actually, I’m not. They appear to be muddled and confused, total pawns of Islamic banking and the wealthy Gulf.

The Islamic world was the biggest slavers on Earth and still are…

That is true. Arabs enslave blacks in the Sudan, Mauritania and in other places where the Koran allows it. However, most politicians don’t want to make a fuss about that, because it would offend our Gulf allies.

We have nothing to be guilty of, and calling me and other Europeans a racist (because that is what using Neo-Nazi is really saying) because I want to stand up for my CULTURE is not fair and not correct, even when the few Neo-Nazis get involved in standing up for their culture, why tar me with the same brush, when I have to make choices for which politicians will do the most against the current threat.

If there are politicians who are willing to protect their citizens from extremist Gulf state influence, and Islamist demands for Sharia, they would probably be the most effective at defending your culture. Aside from the criminal/drug gangs, most of the problems in immigrant communities are generated through Gulf-funded extremist ‘leaders’. Treating those leaders as criminals, and deporting them (or jailing them with solitary confinement) would also be a sign of good leadership.

Bad leadership would ally with the Gulf terror states and the local ‘leaders’ they support while prosecuting random immigrants, not based on what they have done, but based on the circumstances of their birth.

If a government jails or deport immigrants (and anyone else) who has direct ties to terrorist organizations and states, there’s nothing racist about that. If they’re going to deport or harass powerless people just because they were born Muslim, then social unrest and a series of mob riots will probably be the result. I don’t think anyone wants that.

Oct 3, 2008 - 8:08 am 59. RightwingHippyChick:

“If they’re going to deport or harass powerless people just because they were born Muslim, then social unrest and a series of mob riots will probably be the result. I don’t think anyone wants that.”

You find there are already plenty of race riots and many cases of brown-on-white violent and professional racism in Europe. If they get kicked out, they can at least riot only once…

Deporting those racists and cultural supremacists who refuse to integrate and respect our Western culture and our people is not racist, it’s common sense and will prevent more violence than it causes. Turks openly call Germany ‘West-Turkey’ and refuse to learn German because ’soon they will run Germany anyway since they have more children and it will become Turkish by default.’ Those things are openly said to our face, by their ‘community leaders’ — one favorite quote involves the ‘wombs of the fertile Turkish women’ and how Europe will fall to Islam this way without weapons. Now who are the real Nazis here, and why are you taking their side?

No-one minds people who come to Germany and Austria in order to become German or Austrian. It’s when they want to replace us instead of joining us, that the problems begin.

Oct 3, 2008 - 9:56 am 60. David H:

If a government jails or deport immigrants (and anyone else) who has direct ties to terrorist organizations and states, there’s nothing racist about that. If they’re going to deport or harass powerless people just because they were born Muslim, then social unrest and a series of mob riots will probably be the result. I don’t think anyone wants that.

First of all in Europe the first part is not even happening, that is how bad it is, though France does seem at times to get its act together.

We have social unrest and mob riots without any deportation.

The deportation issue, this comes back to the culture and ideology issue and nothing to do with race, I happen to think that Islamic culture is backward and dangerous as do the majority of my friends and family.

It is anti-women, it is terrible in terms of human rights and it is supremacist and discrimatory, you just have to look at how Sharia treats the word of a believer compared to a believer. So in essense we are told to be tolerant to the intolerent, unaggresive to the aggresive, We have the Muslims Brotherhood putting a Islamic slant on everything that they can to work Islam into the fabric of Europe. This is evidently a long term strategy and with the demographic situation I know what the future holds in store for us.

So from that point of view a devout Muslim who believes that Mohammed was the perfect man is a direct threat to the ideals that I thought we had in Europe.

You hit the nail on the head, the deportation issue, if we were to deport devout Muslims, intergrate those that actually valued the West and showed them that the European culture and Western approach was the way forward we would deal with this problem, however that is not going to happen, because now they use the threat of riots and mob rule at the drop of a hat, so now we are on the road to a civil war, which in my view is far worse then deporting people and helping them set up back in the Muslim world where they are more likely to be happy.

Anyway, I want a block on Muslim immigration (only the extremists are prepared to do that at this point) and sensible policies to weed out the extremists and intergrate those that are not, but this is not going to happen, so within 30 years at the most there will be a massive slaughter of the mainly aged Europeans. I suppose someone wants that, I don’t want it to happen, but it will, its gone too far.

So now all we shall see is the death and destruction that this will bring, I have teenage children, I am so sad for what they are going to face, I at least have had a chance to live in an open society, they no longer do.

Oct 3, 2008 - 10:13 am 61. deguello:

There seem to be a few euros out there, who will risk being called nazis, by an islam-appeasing,siucidally pc”maisteram”,than live and die under Islamic terror.Good for them !I say.

Oct 3, 2008 - 10:30 am 62. David H:

What you also have to realise is the social cost to the indigenous population, for example I went to a festival in a major French city, I had a group of teenage Muslims showing their superiority by trying to barge me to the side of the road, then on the way back we got caught up in a incident in the metro where I had to stand in front of my family ready to defend them during a mini riot with police and Muslim youths. So I gave up going to this festival which I used to go every year. Two years later some Muslims tried to kidnap my 13 year old daughter, her crime was to laugh at one peeing in the street.

One month later two decided to abuse her verbally as she was walking home from the school bus stop.

Two weeks ago a Muslim in full attire spat in my direction because he heard me speaking English and thought I was an American, I knew it was aimed at me, I laughed at him which seemed to upset me more.

And I do not live in a rough area?

So who is powerless? Should I deport myself?

Oct 3, 2008 - 10:31 am 63. David H:

I meant to say upset him more… Mary you understand the Islamic threat from what you have said, you are ignoring the demographics and perhaps you are falling into the trap of seeing it as just extremist Islam. There are so many things going wrong in Europe, my vote is worthless, I vote for someone who has given most of his power away to unelected leaders, now they can just apply any law that they want, they seem to think that because a law is International law then that law should be applied they are International Socialists. They have a population that is still clinging on to their past and their culture, so they use any means to destroy that and uncontrolled immigration is part of that.

A couple of years ago I would have thought myself as being insane for typing this, but I seriously believe it now.

So when an extremist party gets a high percentage of votes and it upsets these undemocratic leaders of ours, I feel joy, but they have even taken that joy away, no crisis in the EU over this, I suppose it just goes to show how limited the power of the Austrian regional government really is now thatthey signed that damned treaty…

Oct 3, 2008 - 10:53 am 64. Pope Linus:

David H., your family experiences in France sound terrible. I’m very sorry that you’ve had to endure such things. They’re all completely unjustified.

If you’re willing, come to the United States! The winters are long here in Western New York, but we’ll set your family up well. No race riots, and moving from France, you’ll be used to the high taxes!

Oct 3, 2008 - 11:31 am 65. David H:

Pope Linus, I could tell you some more, like almost being mugged by a gang of Muslims on a train near St Lazare station in Paris, luckily the police were on the train, also being in London a week after 7/7 and seeing a Muslim get on the tube, dressed in a suit but with a shaved head and beard, carring an odd rucksack full of white stuff or plastic bags with odd things in, he was trying to get a reaction or cause fear, but us Brits just sat there wondering and did not react.

But not so terrible in that I got away with it each time.

I have certainly contemplated it, my wife is not quite there yet and I am a bit concerned at uprooting the kids during a key period of their schooling having already uprooted them once before at an earlier age, so I will wait a bit and keep a close eye on what is going on, though that is hard as there is a clamp down on reporting these incidents in Europe… Thanks for the offer though, I do think over the coming ten years more and more Europeans will leave.

Oct 3, 2008 - 1:13 pm 66. Mary Madigan:

So in essense we are told to be tolerant to the intolerent, unaggresive to the aggresive

I guess I’m looking at this (too much) through American eyes, but why would anyone follow such bad advice?

When New York city was plagued with crimes and riots, people started independent neighborhood watch groups. One group, the Guardian Angels, shamed the police by doing the job the police didn’t do – arresting criminals. The Angels didn’t carry weapons, but they weren’t afraid to use force to make citizens’ arrests.

Eventually, the police started working with the Guardian Angels, and the crime rate went down. Sure, the Left called the Angels and Giuliani fascists. They still call them fascists. But that didn’t stop Giuliani and the leader of the Guardian Angels, Curtis Sliwa, from being successful and politically powerful.

But Giuliani and Sliwa didn’t target people according to their race. They didn’t deport all of the Black and Hispanics, even thought Black and Hispanic neighborhoods had the worst crime rates. History proves that targeting people according to their race/religion makes the situation worse, not better.

Oct 3, 2008 - 2:46 pm 67. Andrew Ian Dodge:

Censorship in any form is wrong. Let the Nazis expose themselves for what they are.

And how is being against the Islamisation of Europe neo-Nazi? Or yes and its the height of irony for a Muslim to go on about fascism.

Oct 3, 2008 - 3:26 pm 68. Mary Madigan:

And how is being against the Islamisation of Europe neo-Nazi?

Being against the Islamisation of Europe isn’t neo-Nazi, but if Austrian Jews and Israelis are alarmed by Strache’s party, and if he wants to ally with the sources of Islamisation, Iran and Saudi Arabia, then maybe he really isn’t against Islamisation.

Censorship in any form is wrong. Let the Nazis expose themselves for what they are.

True.

Oct 3, 2008 - 8:09 pm 69. David H:

Mary, you and many others are looking at this with US eyes. And to answer your question, we have to follow that advice, because if we do not the state will punish us, you only have to see what happens to people who react, like one poor guy who said to some Muslims go back to your homes if you don’t like it here, he ended up in jail.

You keep going back to deportation, I do not like it either, but the choice is really between allowing continued immigration, allowing demographics to create a Muslim majority in 30 years and then the death and destruction of a continent wide civil war similar to the Balkans or deport those that do not want to be part of European culture and are ramming Islam down our throats.

As you keep raising Black and Hispanic people as a comparison, I think I better point out that Blacks are a race, as are Hispanics, I note that both are culturally Americans within a generation, though gang cuture is an issue. Even if the Blacks have a hang up over Slavery and the Hispanics are always upset over the seizure of Texas and California.

I feel that laws need to be upheld if not then we go into anarchy, so illegal immigrants should be deported, however it must be done in a way that uses common sense.

Neither the Black population nor the Hispanics in the main follow an ideology that is against the principals of the USA, so drawing a comparison between them and Muslims is false in my opinion as a European.

And finally about Nazi’s symbols, this has been talked about for a long time, the Nazi symbols were banned at the end of the second world war in Germany and Austria, because there was still Nazis carrying out attacks against the allied powers. After that ended ther was no need to keep such a ban in what is supposed to be a free society, where walking around in Nazi uniform should only produce laughter and contempt, to me that is a mature society.

The Guardian Angels concept would not work with Islamics.

Oct 4, 2008 - 2:09 am 70. David H:

This bloog should help:

http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/ Its in English.

And for a Allah Akbar moment go to Burn, Baby, Burn:

Here is the key detail:

A little later, the members of the family (I assume it’s the family of the kid killed) emerged furious from their closed meeting with city officials. In tears, a young woman addressed the young persons: “They wanted to calm you down. But I say: Burn everything.” Acclamations greeted her words and the crowd dispersed, in small groups, promising the police a night of fire, and crying out: “Allah Akbar, Allah Akbar!” “Things will burn. We’ve had enough of seeing our little brothers die in our neighborhoods. You dominated our parents. But we are of the third generation and we are going to open our mouth,” declared one of the gang leaders to a group of teens listening with respect.

Visibly upset, an official tried to speak to the crowd, In vain. “The only support we might have is the mothers. But even among them there are some who are too angry,” lamented Maurice Crouzet, assistant on social issues. In his office, one hour later, the mayor struggled to recover from his aborted dialoge. “Dialogue is very complicated. Why has it resulted in this rupture? Why is every authority suspect?

Note: The answer lies in the words “Allah Akbar”. Crouzet, like everybody else pretends to be surprised

You need to draw conclusions from that exchange, its most enlightening, in that the police should not be chasing a Muslim theif, they blame the police for his death, but the blame rests solely with the thief, accidents do happen. And then the God is Great chants which is a war cry. The dhimmis tried to reason with them, but nothing is accepted, their religion tells them what they want to hear, its time for war…

Oct 4, 2008 - 5:05 am 71. David H:

Here I guess is the rub of it all, they are only interested in their own nation so want to keep out of international events as being not of their concern. They do not want Muslims in Austria, but nor do they want to interfere in what Iran does. From my point of view these people are likely to be Fascists, but many of the people voting for them are not. Europe is a mess and the future is a continent wide civil war, only a sensible targetted deportation programme and re-education can stop it and that will not happen.

Oct 4, 2008 - 5:10 am 72. Sean:

If staying out of international affairs is a priority for them, then wouldn’t supporting international sanctions and cutting ties to iran – rather than encouraging them – be the most natural thing to do? Either way, they’re taking a position, and it just so happens that their party, tainted my nazism, has sided with the iranians.

All of this parties positions and its leadership are consistent with the nazis – from the nazi symbols to the jewish conspiracy theories and bigoted remarks the “Freedom Party” has promulgated. There are no excuses. It’s the “Pure Arian” policy as usual in Europe. The islamists and these neo-nazis deserve one another.

Oct 4, 2008 - 9:47 am 73. Mary Madigan:

Mary, you and many others are looking at this with US eyes. And to answer your question, we have to follow that advice, because if we do not the state will punish us, you only have to see what happens to people who react, like one poor guy who said to some Muslims go back to your homes if you don’t like it here, he ended up in jail.
You keep going back to deportation, I do not like it either, but the choice is really between allowing continued immigration, allowing demographics to create a Muslim majority in 30 years and then the death and destruction of a continent wide civil war similar to the Balkans or deport those that do not want to be part of European culture and are ramming Islam down our throats.

Forced deportation of people based on their religious or ethnic heritage will bring civil war sooner than later. So, if those are the only two choices, there is no choice at all.

But there are always alternatives. As you said, a lot of the problems are caused by European government policies. Your governments are not paying attention to the rights of all citizens. For whatever reason (probably the lure of petrodollars) they’re allowing Muslims to be more equal than all others, and that’s what needs to change. The Guardian Angels shamed the NYC government into doing something about crime. I don’t know enough about the UK or the French government to know how to get their attention, to let them know that their power is being threatened by their policies.

The FPO’s ‘Ausländer Raus!’ solution is not a solution. If voters think that their only choice is between parties that are multi-culti-pacifist or kind-of-fascist, most people will probably vote for the pacifists. At least the weak pacifists are not promising immediate unrest and destruction.

People need other, more pragmatic alternatives.

Oct 5, 2008 - 9:45 am 74. JFSanders:

Ms. Madigan,

You sidestepped Mr.Krog’s statement with a partial truth. That is still a lie.

“The Times article you link says no such thing as that the FPÖ “seeks to bring back Nazi symbols and salutes”

Henrik – are you talking about the article titled “Austrian voters support party that wants to bring back Nazi symbols”?”

The title and the substance of the article are not coherent. The article is just as Mr.Krog suggests. And there should be freedom of expression for all people of this planet.

Jim

Oct 5, 2008 - 11:05 am 75. David H:

Mary, as you said you are looking at it with US eyes, I do not have that luxury, as Geert Wikders said the other night on Glenn Becks show, its 1 minutes to 12. A block on further Muslim immigration will not stop the takeover, there are 450 million people in Europe and 50 million are Muslims, in 15 years time 50% of young people in France will be Muslims.

The choice is now between Islaminisation or try to find someone who will stand up against it no matter who that is, so on your ideals if I decide to stay in France I guess I better convert, Allah Akbar and all that… So your choice is that fighting is bad and that I might as well surrender which is what so many Americans accuse us of with dare I say it correct distaste for us wimpy Europeans.

No I hate National Socialists, but while I think there is a way back from Fascism, there is no way back from ISLAM!

Its not the UK or France Government that matters so much (except for France’s policy on developing a the Med), its the International Socialism at the core of the EU.

Which of the mainstream parties is doing anything to deal with the Islamisation of Europe, none of them…

Oct 5, 2008 - 11:10 pm 76. Mary Madigan:

The choice is now between Islaminisation or try to find someone who will stand up against it no matter who that is, so on your ideals if I decide to stay in France I guess I better convert, Allah Akbar and all that… So your choice is that fighting is bad and that I might as well surrender which is what so many Americans accuse us of with dare I say it correct distaste for us wimpy Europeans.

David – If I truly believed that America was about to become Islamized, with Shariah criminal laws, burkas, allah akbar and all that, I would have to fight that apartheid/slaveholding system to the death. Based on my opposition to slavery, Islamist fascism and my beliefs about equal rights, I personally could only choose death over state-imposed Islam.

But if people decide to fight, they have to fight the right people! Focus on the people who are in charge of the Sharia brigade, don’t focus on the local greengrocer.

Europe is not at the ‘fighting’ stage right now. Islamisation could be a threat in the future, but it isn’t a threat right now. Gulf state efforts to Islamize Europe are still in the politically manipulative stage. This is currently a war of diplomacy, words. They push, and no one in Europe pushes back. It makes sense to put together a citizens’ effort to push back politically (because the governments probably aren’t going to do anything), but go after the right people. Inciting civil wars and mob riots by kicking business owners, housewives and children out of their homes is strategically and tactically nonsensical. It just doesn’t make sense to deport people because they’re Muslim. This will make the situation worse, not better. It will empower the fascist Saudis, Iranians, and Emirates princes who are leading the charge for Islamization, and it will empower your local fascist demagogue. (a fact that they are well aware of). When the civil wars are over and your cities are destroyed, you’ll still have some form of fascist around, and they’re not so easy to get rid of.

Authoritarian Islam and National Socialism are natural allies. Our local KKK fascists, led by David Duke, oppose immigration, but they, like Strache, support Iran and the Palestinians, because they all hate the Jews. Our local Stormfront members are a little more open about their anti-Semitism than European groups, but they don’t share Europe’s history or hate speech laws. Also, we’re more aware of it because they write in English.

According to this report, the FPO’s front organisation “Aula” contains antisemitic propaganda. It doesn’t make sense to use European fascists to fight Islamofascism when they’re both on the same side.

Oct 6, 2008 - 5:52 am 77. David H:

Mary, you honestly believe that the majority of Muslims just want a quiet life like Mr. Sargin and they are innocent in all of this.

You talk about creating a politial movement, we have lawful protests like 9/11/2007 in Brussells banned, or Cities against Mosques such as in Cologne opposed by the Mayor and he called in the black clad far left storm troopers to make sure of it and German police stood by while people who were attending this were turned away or beaten up, like a French Jew who had his ribs broken.

How on earth do you organise in that, take Geert Wilders, oddly a technical fault cuts off his speach in the Dutch Parliment and then is solved just as he finishes.

I know HarrysPlace, I know that David T has been involved with extreme left anti-Fascist groups, even though at this point he is very focussed on certain Islamic groups in the UK and I respect him for that.

Well…, its one I struggle with myself, I happen to think that Muslims are the biggest victims of Islam, I actually feel sorry for them especially the women, but does the life of my children have to be destroyed because we cannot make tough choices to deal with this extremism called Islam, actually its too late for deportation in my view, but a block on immigration may perhaps give my children an extra 10 years of freedom before the wheels fall off.

Oct 6, 2008 - 8:20 am 78. David H:

Mary,

This says all what I was trying to say:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1222017478904

Regards

David

Oct 7, 2008 - 10:55 pm

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