Bristol Palin Proves It: Abstinence Education Is Unrealistic
Expecting teens to accept that abstinence is the only acceptable choice denies reality.
When I, a parent of a 17-year-old daughter due to graduate from high school this May, originally read about Bristol Palin’s pregnancy during the presidential campaign, I shared the same sense of indignant outrage expressed by many upon hearing the news. Why on earth is a girl that age having sex, particularly when she was raised by a mother who staunchly supports abstinence-only education? Didn’t she listen?
Yes, I’ll admit my first reaction upon learning of a pregnant teenage girl is to think that it really should be that simple: telling one’s child “don’t have sex until you’re married” should be enough. Never mind the whole virginity pledge thing; explaining the risk of STDs, AIDs and teenage pregnancy should be sufficient rationale. And, just in case it isn’t, then the threat of an angry parent with “a 12-gauge double-aught buckshot” should be enough incentive for teens to “keep their britches on.” And yet, obviously, it isn’t. The Bristol Palins and Jamie Lynn Spears are proof enough that “just say no” doesn’t always sink in.
After giving birth in late December, Bristol Palin went on CNN to talk about how the daughter of an abstinence-only supporter became an unwed teenage mother. No, she told Greta Van Susteren, it wasn’t that she was lazy about contraception, nor did she have religious or personal objections to its use. She got pregnant because she had sex, and she had sex because that’s what she decided to do. Or, in her own words, because her parents’ instructions to abstain from having sex is “not realistic at all.”
Sure, we can warn teens about the dangers of unmarried sex. We can point to Bristol Palin and say, “Look, even she’s acknowledged that getting knocked up isn’t fun or glamorous” no matter what the Gloucester 17 girls thought it would be. We can grab sticky tape, as Eric Love of the East Texas Abstinence Program did, and use it as a metaphor for what teenage sex will do to their future marriage:
To make the point, Mr. Love grabbed a tape dispenser and snapped off two fresh pieces. He slapped them to his filing cabinet and the floor; they trapped dirt, lint, a small metal bolt. “Now when it comes time for them to get married, the marriage pulls apart so easily,” he said, trying to unite the grimy strips. “Why? Because they gave the stickiness away.
Such object lessons sound persuasive, even witty, in the confines of a classroom where students already know that nodding and pretending to agree makes the lecture shorter and the day go faster. But beyond school doors waits a world which proves how simplistic — and futile — our talk is. The lessons to be drawn from two pieces of lint-covered tape are drowned out by what teens see enacted on The O.C. or The Hills, television shows that are part of the teenage media diet linked with teen pregnancy.
We, as parents, can pat ourselves on the back for cleverly demonstrating the perils of putting out, or we can pay attention to the reality of our teenagers’ lives:
- Nearly half (46%) of all 15-19-year-olds in the United States have had sex at least once.
- By the time they reach age 19, seven in 10 teens have engaged in sexual intercourse.
That’s the irony behind the abstinence-only approach: Bristol Palin, Jamie Lynn Spears, the Gloucester 17 … they’re all part of that shocking 46 percent of 15-19-year-olds who are having sex even as they’re receiving abstinence-only education under an unprecedented $176 million in federal funding.
If there is one lesson that we, as parents, should learn from our children it’s that despite our best intentions, despite our instructions and admonishments, they aren’t always going to obey. We begin learning this when they’re toddlers who, after being told to stay out of the cookie jar so they don’t spoil their dinner, head straight for it the instant Mommy or Daddy’s back is turned. We are reminded of it when we tell them not to use foul language, then find ourselves in the principal’s office, red-faced and embarrassed, because our kid was caught scrawling vulgar epithets on a bathroom wall about another kid at school.
Kids screw up. That’s part of being kids. And a sad fact in today’s world is that, despite whatever we tell them, kids are also screwing around.
Telling a teenager that abstinence is the only acceptable approach denies the reality of the world they’re living in, just as it denies the reality of our own experience: children don’t always listen. The only thing that an abstinence-only approach gives us is the cold comfort of reminding ourselves we taught them better.
Except, obviously, we did not.
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Katherine Berry writes about current events and culture at Electric Venom.
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111 Comments
1. RightwingHippyChick:Just let the naughty kids read this article, and the stories about theft and other trials of parenthood will put them off having kids for life — problem solved.
;-D
Feb 25, 2009 - 2:09 am 2. Crass Boersting:Insanity is hereditary—you catch it from your kids.
(Ronald Reagan)
A marriage without children is like a wound without salt.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:31 am 3. Camo:(Unknown)
Wow, you set your expectations pretty low for teenagers. Just substitute the word “abstenance only” for “family planning” or “contraception” and you have the flipside of the same argument. You also fail to mention the amounts listed for contraceptive and sex ed already in place, and don’t really have any stats (other than intercourse rates) to back up your story.
“Kids screw up” or to put it blatantly, kids screw. No one program will stop it, however, in a perfect world, no sex, no babies, no STDs. However, the myth that a condom will stop pregnancies also helped spread STDs. There needs to be a logical middleground with an emphasis on abstenance.
Use your argument for illicit drug abuse – “It’s OK to use LSD and crack, Johnny, just do it responsibly and get regular checkups by your doctor.” How absurd.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:35 am 4. James S.:Are all these kids recieveing abstinence only education? Just because her mother advocates for it does not mean that is the educaion she had. What is the statistical breakdown of 15-19 year olds having sex between those recieving abstinence only education and those recieving sex ed that includes the use of contraceptives? I’m not asking this with an agenda. I’m asking this because I seriouly do not know and your article did not answer these questions.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:46 am 5. Kevin:Katherine, Katherine….
Your article might have had some merit if you could only have suppressed your obsessive Palin-hatred and resisted repeating the lie that Governor Palin is anti-contraception. I don’t recall Bristol ever mentioning in that interview that her mother forbade using birth control, but your mind was already made up regardless of what she would have said.
It is obvious that your entire article was just another attempt at bashing her, and you obviously aren’t above trying to do it through her own daughter. The only difference between you and Olbermann is that you at least make some attempt to sound more civil. But I could just see you pumping your fist during Bristol’s interview.
Abstinence may not be the most realistic option, but it does work every time it is tried. Just because some sick people may refuse to take a proven medicine that will make them well just because it tastes horrible doesn’t mean that that particular medicine should be pulled off the market.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:55 am 6. EA:Camo nailed it.
No program or education is going to work for everyone all of the time, to expect that is unrealistic. So what’s the alternative? Hand out condoms and birth-control pills and tell the kids to ‘be careful’ and if they do become pregnant, they can always get an abortion? It seems to me that this type of approach encourages an even more irresponsible attitude; one which instructs the teenager that they can do whatever they want and there will be no consequences.
Some teen pregnancies are object lessons for other teens. While I don’t believe that teenage motherhood or out of wedlock births are net positives, not all teen mothers end up on a ‘downward spiral’.
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:07 am 7. C. Siegel:Who says kids can only get sex ed from school? Even in my day, there were plenty of easy-to-read sources of reliable safe sex information in the library, at the doctor’s clinic, etc. And advocating abstinence doesn’t prevent anyone from accessing these ridiculously simple information sources, nor should it.
Kids having sex get into problems not because of a lack of information or availability thereof, but because they’re too immature to handle the consequences very well. If you can’t remember your housekeys and your sweater, why should you assume you’re ready to take responsibility for safe sex.
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:30 am 8. Kevin C:Camo you said it well, those that say abstinance is unrealistic don’t say when practiced it works perfectly, better than any condom or other form of birth control, you won’t get an STD, it just has to be put in practice. It is simple self control.
You can substitute any behavior for sex and find a reason to go ahead and do it, stealing, rape, murder. After all its unrealistic to expect that people should control themselves.
Rule over your desires or be ruled by them.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:06 am 9. Ruthie:Abstinence education is a common sense, practical approach to teaching kids that sex is an adult activity, not a playground pastime. It offers kids a peer alternative to “every one is doing it” and gives them permission to “just say no” without feeling odd (or even unique). Kids are smart, let’s give them credit where credit is due. Let’s not presume they’re predestined to a sexually-active youth. I don’t know that anyone advocates “abstinence only” as the only approach, but let’s not teach sex as though it’s something every kid should go out and try tonight.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:13 am 10. Spider79:Abstinance is an unworkable soulution. Abstinance only leads to marriage and as most married men know, marraige leads to more abstinance. What’s a guy to do?
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:21 am 11. VidOmnia:This column is just factually wrong. Palin is not a staunch supporter of abstinence-only education – she believes in teaching about contraception!
Palin:
“No, I’m pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues. So I am not anti-contraception. But, yeah, abstinence is another alternative that should be discussed with kids. I don’t have a problem with that. That doesn’t scare me, so it’s something I would support also.”
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:27 am 12. Northern Light:The funny thing is that Sarah Palin believes that abstinence doesn’t work. She knows in her heart that a woman named Mary got pregnant even though she was abstinent.
The real problem with abstinence-only sex education is that if Plan A fails, Plan B is getting pregnant.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:31 am 13. Sara for America:Too bad you just know your kid “will return from his senior dance smelling faintly of vodka and Hi-C and, despite being utterly incapable of standing upright or speaking without a slur, he’ll swear he didn’t drink”
Maybe you aren’t raising him right? Just a thought.
I don’t like anybody telling me how to raise my kids. You wanna hand your kids a condom with a smile and a wink and “have fun, be safe?” Go ahead. I’ll raise mine the way I decide.
By the way, I’ve raised three boys through high school. We taught them abstinence is best and if they wanted us to support them financially, that’s all we would expect from them.
When people who have no experience raising kids to adulthood tell me how I should do it, I respond that they should shut the piehole.
And that includes our Resident Parent Obama.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:32 am 14. kiwikit:How is it that today’s kids can not abstain but in my day, the late ’50s and early
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:38 am 15. Carolb:’60s, kids were NOT having sex? In my public high school of 570 in a upper middle suburb of Philadelphia, there was ONE mysterious departure due to known pregnancy. These were the days before the pill. It wouldn’t surprise me if the same could be achieved today if parents kept kids away from TV and the cinema. If kids are told, as they are, for every day of their life that one can’t control her sexual urges, it’s bound to sink in. In my day, we were taught that our bodies were our own, to be protected and saved. Now in these days of STP’s (and the latest that genetal herpes is a lead-in to Alzheimers) we owe it to our kids to protect them for the secular push toward early sexual activity which, honestly, is just egotism: me, me, ME!
Regardless of what her mother taught her or what her mother believed, no way I am going to believe that Bristol Palin didn’t know about contraception and/or how to obtain it if she wanted to. Are we supposed to believe, too, that her boyfriend had never heard of condoms?
And, are we to believe that all these Hollywood actresses getting pregnant out of wedlock don’t know anything about birth control either?
Bristol got pregnant because she and her boyfriend didn’t use birth control. It’s as simple as that. To blame her mom for believing in abstinence is foolish.
No, abstinence does not always work (for some it does). But, teaching about sex and contraception does not always work either. Either way, people will still take foolish chances.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:44 am 16. Marie Claude:“virginity” in our western civilisation isn’t an argument anymore (apparently it doesn’t work in christian families too), unless you’re muslim girl and that your risque is death or ban.
If you want to prevent youngs from having sexual intercourses, then show them pictures with venerian diseases and operations like the newbees watch in the Navy, where dicks are cut in slices like a potatoe, I bet the emotional “chock” will be effective.
Otherwise normal teen-agers like to trangress the non written and or moral laws that the adults profess, especially their parents’s.
Kids. Oh, the hopes and dreams we project onto them while awaiting their birth. He’ll be a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who nevertheless inherits his mother’s love of poetry. She’ll be the first female president, with her father’s innate athleticism but hopefully not his cavity-prone teeth. Our kid will be the first child to read Proust before he walks, a veritable prodigy who’ll compose sonatas on her Playskool plastic piano to rival Mozart’s.
umm, normal kids are quite sufficent to keep you busy, just that one shouldn’t put his/her own objectives on their heads, but be attentive at their own personality, and see in what domain they could excell, for it’s important for them to keep self confidence and emphasize their positive points
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:46 am 17. trangbang68:You try to instruct them to aspire to higher standards. If they fail, you help them to pick up the pieces. It’s not like they don’t know what a condom is in this society. They often aren’t likely to use them anyway. Palin’s daughter if anything lacks judgment or discernment as the boy seems like sort of a trashy loser.
Feb 25, 2009 - 6:01 am 18. JR:The author wrote:
“I shared the same sense of indignant outrage expressed by many upon hearing the news. Why on earth is a girl that age having sex, particularly when she was raised by a mother who staunchly supports abstinence-only education? Didn’t she listen?”
Wrong, check your facts.
Palin:
“No, I’m pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues. So I am not anti-contraception. But, yeah, abstinence is another alternative that should be discussed with kids. I don’t have a problem with that. That doesn’t scare me, so it’s something I would support also.”
It’s as if research into the facts are not necessary anymore in this country.
Feb 25, 2009 - 6:40 am 19. Amphipolis:The ground shifts beneath your argument.
First, you attack those who teach abstinence only. Fine, I agree that Children must be told about contraceptives. I would not withhold that information, and neither did Sarah Palin.
Then, you attack those who teach abstinence as the only acceptable option. Well, that is another story.
This is the way the argument always goes – we are expected to tell teens that sex before marriage is acceptable. It is not acceptable. It is inherently irresponsible. There should be NO adult who disagrees with this.
You need to be brave enough to tell your daughter that. Sure, kids do stupid things. They need to know the facts. And the biggest fact is that sex for them is a really, really bad idea. Period.
Feb 25, 2009 - 6:49 am 20. caremeld:The author’s point about abstinence education is entirely inconsistent with her points in the first part of the article. Although we know that ideals won’t always be met, we teach those ideals hoping that seeds will be planted that will yield fruit later on. Why should sex education be any different? Abstinence works 100% of the time and builds self-confidence to boot. Nothing builds self-confidence like mastering challenges, and self-control in the face of our permissive culture ain’t easy.
I echo the commenter’s astute observation about teenage pregnancy years ago. I graduated high school in 1976. During those four years of high school, only one girl left because of pregnancy. To make the argument that easier access to birth control reduces teen pregnancy is ludicrous. The empirical evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary.
It is entirely possible to inform teens about available birth control while emphasizing the unmistakable benefits of abstinence. This doesn’t need to be an either/or argument.
Feb 25, 2009 - 6:56 am 21. Steve:Kids that are taught sex ed get pregnant too. Does that prove sex ed is unrealistic? That’s the beauty of anecdotal evidence. It fits whatever theory you want to push. In other words it is nonsense. People reject Prohibition as a failure but why? It reportedly reduced drinking so it was having its desired effect. The problem was the unintended consequence of increased crime. Is increased crime a possible outcome of abstinence education?
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:41 am 22. MarkD:Abstaining from writing fact-free articles for PJM works well.
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:47 am 23. TomF:Enough! Let’s stop treating a teenage mother as an expert on ethics and sex education.
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:48 am 24. foRRever:I agree with these people . . .
#5 Kevin . . . Abstinence may not be the most realistic option, but it does work every time it is tried.
#8 Kevin C . . . Rule over your desires or be ruled by them.
#9 Ruthie . . . I don’t know that anyone advocates “abstinence only” as the only approach
#13 Sarah for America . . . When people who have no experience raising kids to adulthood tell me how I should do it, I respond that they should shut the piehole. And that includes our Resident Parent Obama and Sarah Palin.
#14 kiwikit . . . in my day, the late ’50s and early ’60s, kids were NOT having sex
#19 Amphipolis . . . There should be NO adult who disagrees with this.
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:58 am 25. vb:There is a huge difference between a 17 or 18 year old having sex with a steady boyfriend and a 14 year old having sex with anyone who asks because she wants to be cool. There is also a difference when said 17 year old gets pregnant and accepts the responsibilities of parenthood and the 15 year old who thinks she will be all grown up if she has a baby of her own. If we don’t find a way of talking about sex that helps kids identify their own values and set their own goals, they won’t listen. How about talking about sex as it affects trust and intimacy, and relationships? How about helping them identify the knd of home in which they want to raise their kids? How about discussing the insecurities they feel as they are finding their place in the world and whether sex and parenthood should be the first step on that journey? Kids aren’t stupid. They know there is more to think about than condoms and cukes.
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:59 am 26. Phineas:I shared the same sense of indignant outrage expressed by many upon hearing the news. Why on earth is a girl that age having sex, particularly when she was raised by a mother who staunchly supports abstinence-only education?
This factually incorrect:
In a widely quoted 2006 survey she answered during her gubernatorial campaign, Palin said she supported abstinence-until-marriage programs. But weeks later, she proclaimed herself “pro-contraception” and said condoms ought to be discussed in schools alongside abstinence.
“I’m pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues,” she said during a debate in Juneau.
Source: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/06/nation/na-sexed6
It seems the MSM isn’t the only one with problems in the “vaunted layers of fact-checking.”
Errors happen. I hope the author and/or PJM will post a prominent correction.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:05 am 27. Ms.Attitude:When I was in 8th grade I participated in the first class on sex education taught in my county. Of the fifteen girls in the class twelve of us were pregnant before we were twenty. We learned about all forms of birth control….oops! Guess we just thought it was funny when she put the condom on the banana.
Years later when my oldest son was a teenager and won over the heart of his first girlfriend, I knew it was leading to sex because I TALKED to my son! If I wasn’t a single mom who had to work, it wouldn’t have happened because they never would’ve been alone. So I did what I thought was best and informed her that if she got pregnant I would hate her and make her life hell. (They dated through the pregnancy and birth of my daughter) I told her my son would never stop loving me or coming around and I would love the baby but her life around me would be pure hell! Then I told him I would remove his member…Needless to say, I’m still not a grandma. They broke up and she got knocked up by the next guy she dated.
My youngest son is 17 and lives with his father in Illinois (I know, yuck) but I’m still a nosey mom and I stalk his myspace page. I called his dad and him after I noticed comments from a girl on his page and gave him the same speech.
I always told my boys that human sex is supposed to be better than what dogs do. That emotions get involved and if you aren’t emotionally ready it can really screw you up…it can turn sweet little girls into stalkers!
The answer is to talk to your kids, they are mini-adults and don’t always make the right decisions…heck, adults don’t make good decisions…look what we just elected!
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:27 am 28. Ms.Attitude:25. vb: I agree with you 100%. My 5 year old daughter is already asking questions about being a mommy. WE TALKED! I’m laying the groundwork for when she’s a teen. I will talk to her and support her and guide her. The trust starts now.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:34 am 29. Tom:I’m gonna say it for the zillionth time for you idiot bloggers out there.
Sarah Palin is for allowing abstinence to be taught ALONG with explicit forms of birth control such as condoms.
Who the heck ever got the lie started that Palin is for abstinence-ONLY sex ed.?
Katherine, how many times do you have to hear the truth before it sinks in?
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:35 am 30. Paul -Indiana:Bristol Palin gave her opinion. That doesn’t make it a fact.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:36 am 31. Tom:Also, I lost my virginity at age 37 the day after I was married. It ain’t as difficult to stay celibate for some people.
Let’s stop extrapolating our vices on the entire population. Reminds me of an ex-coworker who cheated on his wife and then said all men cheat on their wives.
People have vices of varying mixes and degrees. At least that Bristol was honest that she found it hard to keep to abstinence, but don’t take what an 18 year old says and spread it to ALL young women out there.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:39 am 32. Wacky Hermit:When your 3 year old sneaks that piece of cake, what do you do?
If you laugh and say “kids will be kids,” then 12 years later your child will expect that when she breaks rules like “don’t have sex till you’re married,” you’ll just laugh and say “kids will be kids”.
If you take away the cake and throw it away and impose some sort of penalty (time-out, loss of privilege, whatever you do) you will teach your child that when you say “no cake for breakfast” you really MEAN it. So when, 12 years later you tell your child “no sex until marriage,” your child will know you really mean it and it’s not just a guideline to follow until she decides otherwise.
If you beat your child or impose too stiff a penalty, though, your child will learn to hide her cake from you– and when she’s 15, she’ll hide her questions about sex from you, and later on her pregnancy, for fear you’ll get mad.
What you do when your children are under the age of 8 makes the biggest difference in how they regard your parental instructions to abstinence, not what you do after they hit puberty.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:47 am 33. Anonymous:Never thought I’d be typing these words, but Bristol Palin is right. It’s proven that not only do schools that teach abstinence-only sex ed have a higher rate of teen pregnancies, but they also have a higher rate of abortions.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:50 am 34. trangbang68:anonymous,
“Never thought I’d be typing these words, but Bristol Palin is right. It’s proven that not only do schools that teach abstinence-only sex ed have a higher rate of teen pregnancies, but they also have a higher rate of abortions.”
Do you have any links to prove your rate of teen pregnancy and abortion quote? Didn’t think so because its not true.
Feb 25, 2009 - 9:10 am 35. Sara for America:Both teen pregnancy and abortion rates are highest in inner city schools where “comprehensive sex-ed” is pimped by Planned Parenthood and SIECUS and such like minded libertine groups reign supreme. They push abortion in the hood in the spirit of their founder ,the fascist Margaret Sanger who believed in genocide against the poor and undesirables.
#24 foRRever
A school should never hand my child a condom in opposition to me, the parent. Barack Obama wants schools to provide the ways and means for my child to do something I do not want him to do. If you think that is defensible, you are whacked.
Feb 25, 2009 - 9:17 am 36. Anon:Oh really, Bristol, just because you chose not to control yourself, you think abstinence in “not realistic”? So, if another kid skips class, or chooses not to do his homework and fails, can he say that getting a good grade is “not realistic”? Ridiculous. None of my friends in high school had sex. None. And no, they were not all religious. I know literally dozens of people who waited until they were married to have sex. You can think of teenagers as “children” all you want, but they are young adults, not toddlers. They can exercise self-control. They understand the concept of delayed gratification, and they are capable of planning for the future. They aren’t perfect, but they are definately not stupid.
Feb 25, 2009 - 9:46 am 37. Bonnie_:Of course abstinence works, and not just to keep girls from getting pregnant. Abstinence works because it teaches girls and boys that their bodies are valuable and sacred and not to be used like a disposable tissue.
The reason “Twilight” is a monster best-selling teen series is because the vampire relationship is a beautifully veiled longing for chastity and abstinence. Girls and boys long to be treated with respect. They know that cheap meaningless sex is degrading.
We parents have to work harder than our ancestors did, because they married at sixteen and we have to overcome that natural biological urge to start a family. Our culture is complicated enough that young men and women need to wait to marry, and so it’s harder on them.
Telling your daughter that her own body is nothing more than a receptacle and she should use it like one is no way to parent, Ms. Berry. Shame on you.
Feb 25, 2009 - 9:57 am 38. Your Boss:Contraception education isn’t working either.
The out-of-wedlock rate is 40% nationwide and illegitimacy is the cause of most social problems costing me taxes. You can’t convince me that, in this day and age, millions of adults never heard of contraception.
A statistic released last year said that 25% of teenage girls had an STD. So much for condom education.
You’ll never eliminate reckless indulgence until you clean up the pop culture of everything that says casual encounters are acceptable. The problem is cultural.
Ms Atttitude;
I would make it clear to my kids that if they had a child while unmarried, I will not support it, care for it, contribute to its financial well being, or help to raise it in any way, shape, or form. The responsibility is their and theirs alone. Harsh? Maybe. But when they realize they will have to deal 100% with the consquences of their actions, they will think twice about the decisions they make.
Feb 25, 2009 - 10:06 am 39. momof3:“Too bad you just know your kid “will return from his senior dance smelling faintly of vodka and Hi-C and, despite being utterly incapable of standing upright or speaking without a slur, he’ll swear he didn’t drink”
Maybe you aren’t raising him right? Just a thought.”
AMEN!!! Why are sh*tty parents wanting the rest of us to follow them down that path? I would never take parenting advice from someone who expected the worst of her kid. I expect the best. I can deal with the worst if it happens, but in our house we talk talk talk. My 4 year olds know sex makes babies and it’s for married mommies and daddies. They also know that yes, touching your clitoris does feel good, and that’s for private time in their bedroom or bathroom. As they get older I expect we’ll talk about how you can want sex with someone, but that it’s not at all a good idea when a teen, that it can mess up your whole life plan.
And by the way, plenty-the majority in fact-of teens don’t drink. Abstinence should by all means be taught as the only foolproof method to not have a pregnancy or an STD. Other birth control methods should be taught, alongside their failure rates. If you’re staking your life on a condom, you ought to know they fail about 17% of the time in real world use.
Feb 25, 2009 - 11:10 am 40. Ms.Attitude:Your Boss, I agree! My oldest is getting married this summer to a smart girl who is pursuing her Ph.D. My youngest son is working on a college scholarship and has a bright future. They’ve both seen first hand how hard a single parent household is hard on the children. I’m very proud of my boys and know they are the future. I sometimes wonder how I did it!
I know that most girls that have sex at a young age do so because of low self-esteem. Keep the boy at all cost. I’m raising my daughter to know that she is 100% wonderful and she won’t need a man to prove it, that her body is hers and she shouldn’t give it over to a man just to keep him around.
Feb 25, 2009 - 11:36 am 41. Donna:Okay, so let’s don’t teach them not to drink, because they’ll do it anyway. And, let’s don’t teach them not to do drugs, because they’ll do them anyway. What about smoking? Playing with matches? Let’s just abdicate teaching them anything, because it’s all futile anyway.
Bristol Palin got pregnant because she has the same attitude that all teenagers have (and we all had it, too) – “It’s never gonna happen to me”. “It” can mean getting pregnant, getting killed or killing someone while drinking/driving, wrecking the car, getting caught smoking, etc., etc. How many of us parents say to ourselves, “Man, I can’t believe I got away with that when I was young”. Teenagers always think that bad things only happen to other people, not them.
Feb 25, 2009 - 11:56 am 42. Roscoe:“…..I’m pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues. So I am not anti-contraception. But, yeah, abstinence is another alternative that should be discussed with kids. I don’t have a problem with that. That doesn’t scare me, so it’s something I would support also.”
Sarah Palin, 2006 radio interview
So I guess Bristol proves that education about contraceptives doesn’t work either.
Feb 25, 2009 - 11:57 am 43. Mark:Okay, so the expectation of abstinence is unrealistic. What’s your solution? Have you quit telling your kids not to lie because they they lied? Did you decide your toddlers could exist entirely on cookies and candy because they preferred them to vegetables? Does your 14-year-old get to drink because he came home drunk once? I don’t think so.
Feb 25, 2009 - 11:59 am 44. Ken:You continue to fight the fight because it is important. I have two daughters. The older one got pregnant in high school, the younger one didn’t. I taught them both the same, I didn’t give up after the first.
Arguing that abstinence shouldn’t be the goal because it isn’t foolproof is silly and the sort of argument adolescents like to make. Maybe you grow up.
So if the standard is that some kids don’t live up to their abstinence education, we should just throw in the towel right? I can’t think of any policy that works EVERY TIME. I think inner city kids could use a little more abstinence training myself as the illegitimacy rate has reached spectacular proportions. Perhaps the message needs to be sharpened and more to the point. Abstinence DOES work every time it is tried. We don’t have numbers on how many times it HAS worked do we? Hard to prove a negative….
Feb 25, 2009 - 12:09 pm 45. avoidswork:Please recall, though, that the funding was for ABSTINENCE ONLY education. Which is not appropriate in today’s society. Children are having sex at younger ages (why, I don’t know… Like they “know” what they are doing in the sense of physically enjoying the act…). Those who do participate in a virginity pledge are LESS LIKELY to use birth control upon having (out of wedlock) sex.
Bristol Palin is correct in her assertion that abstinence is not really realistic in today’s society. Does that mean you should not stress it as THE BEST option when teaching sex ed? Of course not. And, if we interpret Bristol’s words correctly, she was negligent about birth control.
The best education should include teaching about the dangers/consequences of unprotected sex: diseases/pregnancies. A better plan would be to make such protection available if a child does not think that they can obtain that through their parents. Face it – there are many children in America today who cannot have an open dialogue with their parents about these issues. And sometimes kids are just embarrassed. Let them know their options, ALL OPTIONS. Stress that waiting is the best, but IF that is NOT going to happen to be prepared.
What should be emphasized is that IF a decision is made to have sex, SOMEONE needs to be responsible. But for some kids, this needs to be reinforced/taught. Adults they can trust need to be made available. One hopes it is a parent, but it may be an aunt/uncle, cousin, mentor, older friend, etc. And an acceptance that kids screw up.
Oh, and I find disappointment works well: “I would be very disappointed in you if you…”
Feb 25, 2009 - 12:53 pm 46. Jaci:Doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. The only proven 100% way to avid pregnancy and STDs is abstinence from sexual activity. Sorry. Bristol Palin making a poor decision doesn’t change that.
Feb 25, 2009 - 12:59 pm 47. whyyeseyec:Kk then. Let`s not teach our kids anything. What the heck. Obama will take care of them anyway.
Mandatory pregnancy at 15 !!!! Punish you kid with a kid
Feb 25, 2009 - 1:28 pm 48. Amphipolis:Mandatory pregnancy at 15 !!!!
Go walk around the inner city and talk to the girls there who have no expectation of abstinence. That is the reality in the world where government is your father.
Feb 25, 2009 - 1:49 pm 49. gray man:forrever, comment #24
Feb 25, 2009 - 1:57 pm 50. Brooke:…and that includes our resident parent Obama and Sarah Palin.
Dont put words in #13 sarah for americas’ mouth. Thats not what she said,
that just makes you a phony.
Abstinence is just too hard. You simply can’t expect young men and women, with their hormones raging, to abstain from “giving themselves away”.
BULL!!!
If anyone believes that non-sense for one second you need to get your head checked. It’s called self-control! I am 21 years old and yes, I am happy to say that I am virgin.
Does Katherine Berry think she’s helping anyone or anything by giving young people a pass, “Well, ya know, it really is unreasonable for us to expect our kids to actually listen to us, especially about sex, I mean they’re gonna do it regardless of what we say”. Are you kidding me?!?!?!? The worst thing you could possibly do is lower already low expectations/standards.
Miss Berry makes it sound like any parent who dares to think that their children will actually listen to what they have to say, take them seriously, and obey them is completely naïve and delusional. Let me just say that my parents put the fear of God in me as I was growing up. Not just about abstinence, about everything, I was expected to obey and when I didn’t I was punished.
I’m not saying that it’s easy to stay pure. I’m not damning anyone to hell who hasn’t stayed pure. I am however, refusing to absolve or make any excuses for anyone who has given himself/herself away. It’s a sin. Sure, you can find forgiveness in Jesus, but you’re never going to completely come back to the place you were before.
Miss Berry keeps saying that abstinence just isn’t realistic. Excuse me? What evidence do you have that shows that abstinence isn’t realistic? Just because people aren’t abstinent doesn’t mean it’s not realistic. It’s realistic for a teacher to expect that when he/she gives students an assignment that the students do the assignment. Just because the majority of the students show up to class with the assignment unfinished doesn’t mean that the teacher’s expectations were unrealistic, it means that the students who didn’t do the assignment failed. Am I making any sense?
“Telling a teenager that abstinence is the only acceptable approach denies the reality of the world they’re living in, just as it denies the reality of our own experience: children don’t always listen. The only thing that an abstinence-only approach gives us is the cold comfort of reminding ourselves we taught them better.”—Katherine Berry
Well guess what Miss Berry? I along with more than a few other young people am defying the reality of the world we live in.
Berry attacks abstinence only approaches, however, do we really want to give 16 year olds a bunch of ideas of how to not get pregnant or contract STDs, but still engage in promiscuity? Besides, no method of protection is 100% fool proof, and with all due respect to all of you 16 year olds out there, the majority of you are in fact fools. Most 16 year olds aren’t ready to even be in a relationship with all the emotions that come with being attached to another person, let alone all the baggage that would come with a sexually active relationship. Giving yourself away emotionally is hard enough, because if/when you break up your heart is left with a missing piece, giving yourself away physically entails so much more than the physical act of giving yourself away, even if you didn’t intend it to. After you’ve had relations with a person in that way I am just not sure how you could end the relationship and not feel broken and/or used.
Here’s the gist: Abstinence is more than realistic. People like Berry who decide that it’s unrealistic are setting their children up for failure. Giving yourself away isn’t a decision you make out of ignorance, it is a conscious, calculated choice. No excuses.
God Bless.
Feb 25, 2009 - 2:23 pm 51. rbegrnmt:This opinion piece is not to the high standard of PJM. Opinion using Ms Palin 1 abstinence comment undermines the author’s credibility.
Feb 25, 2009 - 2:24 pm 52. katie G!:WOW.after reading this article i can say that i pretty much agree with what this writer is saying, as for “CAMO” implying the writer wants to support teenage sex is ludacris, she is not saying to give up, shes simply saying, hey these young girls and boys are obviously having sex so lets stop drilling the notion of no sex until youre married when in fact we should be focusing on safe sex (if you choose to have sex). we should be focusing on safe sex because this situation is inevitable. over the past 20 years teens are experiencing things at a much younger/faster rate so dont kid yourself. and another thing from experience, im only 21 and when i was in highschool i had to force myself to sit down while we watched this completely outdated video and hope that the bell would ring so i could run out that door. i wasnt ready to jump the bone when i was 16, in fact i planned on waiting until i was married…but things changed….and i remember thinking to myself that this program is hardly effective and actually annoys students which in return sparks the rebellious..”oh i know i shouldnt but i want to because I CAN” mentality…so make sure that your kids are educated on facts,responsibility and the realistic actions most teens will make.
Feb 25, 2009 - 2:36 pm 53. Pamela:Katherine, abstinence was not unrealistic when I was a teenager, 45 years ago. And it most certainly wasnt when my parents, and their parents were teenagers. Sexual promiscuity is a modern phenomenon. It comes from poor parenting, in that children are taught to have sex from an early age, in school, via sex education. And parents dont ensure that teenagers dont get to be left alone for long periods of time. Teaching kids they dont have sex before marriage, as such behaviour belongs only to sluts and scum, and monitering where and with whom they are, is all that is required.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:08 pm 54. Lily:If you think otherwise, prove to me that widespread teenage promiscuity existed in 1860, with consequent high single mothers !!!!!!
You know why abstinence worked in the 50s and 60s but doesn’t now? Chaperons. People didn’t expect their teen girls to be hanging out alone with boys all hours of the day and night. You know why? Because teens can’t handle the pressure. They are forgetful and foolish and are horrible users of birth control for the same reason they can’t be expected to drink and drive responsibly. That’s why parents need to watch over them. If you want the teen pregnancy rate to go down try having one parent home when the kids get home from school and see if that helps.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:18 pm 55. Marc Malone:I agree with Bristol that abstinence is unrealistic. The waiting until marriage is stupid. That rule was fine back when life was simpler, but that paradigm is no longer extant.
The fact is that people are waiting longer and longer to get married. Schooling takes more and more years. I think the average age for marriage is now around 26. It’s ridiculous to deny your adult bodily urges for that long. It makes you crazy. PMS is one example of this. It is countered by the androsterone contained in seminal fluid. A little of that redresses the hormonal imbalance.
My view is simply that people should wait until they’re adults to take that step. Then, they are responsible for their own actions. It’s the personal responsibility that I care about. If they can’t go out in the world and support themselves and a baby, then they shouldn’t be having sex. Wait until adulthood, but not until marriage.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:21 pm 56. Marc Malone:Thanks to all the posters who quickly corrected the author on her misperception of Gov. Palin. Her record and statements show her to be a pragmatic leader. She is socially conservative, but doesn’t believe in shoving her opinions down anyone’s throat.
I have no idea what the author is talking abot as far as kids misbehaving. My kids never tell me no. They each did once in their lives, and once only. They quickly learned better. They may hide a few things from their bossy Mom, but they are completely honest with me. They have been conditioned to not do so with me. I walk softly, but carry a big stick.
I spank my kids about once a year. That’s all that’s necessary, because I step on bad behavior the moment it raises its ugly head. I never let them get into the habit. My oldest is now 12. Never a problem in school. The teachers all love her. She demonstrates none of the rebellious nonsense, nor even emulates the snotty style of speech our youth use, because I squelch it early, explaining things clearly. Good parenting requires diligence. There are no poor troops; just poor officers.
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:32 pm 57. Tex Taylor:Ms. Berry,
You going to also give your kids the good advice, “Don’t drink and drive! But if you do, make sure you put on your seat belt!!!”
Makes about as much sense…
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:50 pm 58. momof3:“when in fact we should be focusing on safe sex (if you choose to have sex). we should be focusing on safe sex because this situation is inevitable.”
Ok dear, at 21 you are still an idiot. Define safe sex? Condoms fail frequently. BC pills fail. Many diseases are contagious all over the pubic and oral region, not just the area covered by condoms. And you can not tell if someone is clean by looking at them or talking to them. You tell that by someone who is willing to wait with you and have a rela relationship with you. Till marriage? Maybe not. But until you can BOTH handle any consequences. And that is not when you are still a teen. Teens can’t care for themselves or support themselves, for the most part, so they sure can’t bring someone else along for the ride.
And yes, no chaperoning is a big issue. We knew latchkey kids were an issue back in the 80’s. This should be no surprise. Kids have parents for a reason-they CAN”T raise themselves.
Humans live up or down to the standards expected of them. Expect a lot, you will usually get a lot. Sometimes people fail, yes, but failure should never be the expected and common socially accepted outcome. Responsibility should be.
The baby boomers were selfish and me-centered, and have raised the crappy ids to prove it. And their grandkids are worse. We know where the problem came from, now let’s end the “Me First” mentality today and get back to social responsibility!
Feb 25, 2009 - 3:58 pm 59. foRRever:#35 Sarah for America . . . why so hostile, all i did was quote you and say I agree with you? I DID add Sarah palin because she hadn’t raised kids to adulthood either, and since she was so much the part of this story i thought she should be there but then I remembered her son who had turned 18, so sorry.
And I agree with these people when they say . . .
#27 Ms Attitude . . . human sex is supposed to be better than what dogs do
#31 Tom . . . I lost my virginity at age 37 the day after I was married. It ain’t as difficult to stay celibate for some people.
#36 Anon . . . None of my friends in high school had sex. None.
#38 your boss . . . I would make it clear to my kids that if they had a child while unmarried, I will not support it, care for it, contribute to its financial well being, or help to raise it in any way, shape, or form.
#39 momof3 . . . My 4 year olds know sex makes babies and it’s for married mommies and daddies.
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:01 pm 60. ked5:Bristol Palin is still not ready to accept responsiblity for her stupid choice of sex while in high school. She is still trying to *excuse* her behavior, as though she didn’t have a choice to have sex.
I have four children, including two young adult – virgin – daughters (despite going to a liberal college). Their choice. I also have a teenage son who let his “when will we have sex” former girlfriend (who promptly went and had sex with some other guy) know, in no uncertain terms – that sex is ONLY for marriage.
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:10 pm 61. ked5:#8
Rule over your desires or be ruled by them.
~~~~~~
or the difference between animals and what makes us human – choice.
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:17 pm 62. ked5:19. Amphipolis:
This is the way the argument always goes – we are expected to tell teens that sex before marriage is acceptable. It is not acceptable. It is inherently irresponsible. There should be NO adult who disagrees with this.
You need to be brave enough to tell your daughter that.
~~~~~~~
I have a mother who was sexually active prior to her marriage in the 50’s. The reason such women DO NOT tell their daughters to refrain from said activites, is they don’t want to feel like a hypocrite.
(and if they do, there is a subliminal suggestion that they *expect* their daughters to be as loose as they were. I had kids coming up to me when I was *12* asking if my sister was a prostitute – she knew all about contraceptives back in the 70’s.)
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:31 pm 63. ked5:#37
I do genealogy. I’ve gone back a few hundred years on some lines – I have found *very few* girls who were married before 19 or 20, and many young men who were in their 20’s. So, commonality of getting married at 14 or 15, or even 16, in the 1700’s or 1800’s, is a myth. I can think of only two or three marriages out of over a hundred I’ve documented where that was the case.
Feb 25, 2009 - 4:43 pm 64. Self-hating Boomer:I didn’t bother reading the article; the conclusion indicates on its face a grave misunderstanding of what the word “proves” means. If the author doesn’t understand that much, there’s no point bothering with any conclusions.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:19 pm 65. kharwick:Yes, there is no silver bullet for everyone and kids are bombarded with all the sex ed they will ever need by the time there 16. Unfortunately too many don’t heed any of it and in many cases bring a child into the world while still a child making for tough sledding for all involved.
My hats off for the kids that do have the where-with-all to abstain, and more power to them. For those that choose not to please use something you learned as teenage pregnancy is usually not a panacea.
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:19 pm 66. Delia:Birth control doesn’t really control birth either…or STDs. -Otherwise there wouldn’t be so many teenage births, abortions and sexually transmitted diseases still rampant in a country where people have easy access to both condoms and BC pills regardless of whether parents ask their children to abstain.
It’s a genital jungle out there. Perhaps instead of just teaching a girl how to put a condom on a banana they should show slide-shows of sexually transmitted diseases in all their horrific grit. Just google images of herpes and genital warts and you’ll have a hard time sleeping tonight. lol
Feb 25, 2009 - 5:56 pm 67. AnnieB:Kids will drink anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will smoke anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will do drugs anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will litter anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will shoplift anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will cheat on their tests anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will bully anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will use vulgarity anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Kids will drive recklessly anyway – so why bother telling them not to?
Hey – my logic is as good as hers.
Feb 25, 2009 - 6:02 pm 68. simone:Spare me the cuteness of your rhetoric. Your example proves nothing. This is not a logical proof where finding a black swan negates the belief. We live in a world where probabilities exist between 0 and 1.
Feb 25, 2009 - 6:56 pm 69. Kirly:How is it that abstinence worked so well for so many centuries (up to and including my own teen years) but suddenly, it’s just not realistic?
It became “unrealistic” when society (parents!) decided it was OK if their kids had sex. Our society was better when it was socially unacceptable to have sex before marriage, when teen sex was frowned upon, when girls/young women actually valued themselves enough to say NO until there was a promise of long term security for herself and any possible children, when boys/young men actually valued those girls/young women enough to respect that choice, when society didn’t ridicule anyone who embraced these concepts.
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:02 pm 70. narciso:It’s dissapointing Katherine, you chose the wrong example, Bristol Palin, whose school doesn’t have an abstinence program, and Sarah Pslin, who doesn’t expressly support such a policy. This really is below the standards one
Feb 25, 2009 - 7:23 pm 71. Paul:has come to expect from you, others I can understand their negligence. To answer your other point, she doesn’t want to state that it’s a mistake because 1) she really loves
Tripp, and probably still loves Levi; and if these pests who keep getting their way, will get married once they get out of high school
You don’t teach children to do what comes naturally; you teach them to do what they should do! Does anybody really think that it’s any easier for our teens than it was for our ancestors? Having large numbers of children out of the safety of wedlock is the best way to destroy a society yet discovered. Marriage was not instituted to help people feel good – as many liberals hold, it was instituted to (among other things) provide a safe and effective environment for raising children who can function in society. Yes, there are always provisions for those who fail, but these are the exceptions that prove the rule.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:19 pm 72. aloysiusmiller:Too many logical fallacies ma’am. This isn’t an argument.
Feb 25, 2009 - 8:38 pm 73. Dave:Not mentioned here is that teenage abstinence is a “choice” only for girls and star athletes. Most high school boys couldn’t get laid to save their lives. Non-abstinent girls either take turns with the athletes or seek out older dudes with spare cash and fast cars. After a decade of crazy parties, drunken hookups, and a baby or two, they’ll be ready to marry one of those nice guys they rejected in high school, and then start practicing abstinence.
Feb 25, 2009 - 10:27 pm 74. Amphipolis:The very idea that any teens can’t get or don’t know how to use a condom is ridiculous. Sarah Palin did not teach abstinence only, as has been said – but even if she had, her daughter went to public school. She had peers. She had health class. Condoms are sold everywhere, like candy.
The whole argument is a phony straw man. She did not use them because she chose not to for her own reasons. It had nothing to do with abstinence.
Apparently, expecting her to use a condom is not realistic either.
Feb 26, 2009 - 8:16 am 75. acj:We live in a society that is far removed from reality…milk comes from a bottle and burgers come from McDonalds, and sex is something that Brittney Spears has for fun. Sex is now so far removed from the purpose of making babies.
Feb 26, 2009 - 9:55 am 76. katie G!:for #58
Feb 26, 2009 - 10:58 am 77. ColinLaney:although i am 21 that doesnt make me an idoit, youre saying im stupid when im far from it….you sound cynical. the correct term would be ignorant because i may not have as much experience or knowledge but this shit is universal. people on here make vaild points and some people look like pathetic “bloggers” its so aggrivating to see these people logging on and bashing other people for their opinions. like saying someone is an idiot. its PATHETIC. obviously people are bias and most people who are strongly opinionated are not going to change their perspective so just state your opinion and if you dont agree thats cool but watch what you say, or should i say HOW you say it…but then again this is a website. i was just making the point of a MAJORITY of teens will have sex before theyre married so at least enforce the IMPORTANCE OF PRACTICING SAFE SEX>>>>>i know you can all analyze that and stem many arguments like condoms or BC dont always work. no shit but were not gonna tell teens…well they might not work so who cares. its the effort of responsibility. thats all.
Premarital sex is an established custom everywhere in the western world, and quite a few places elsewhere. It’s not going away. Get used to it.
Feb 26, 2009 - 12:40 pm 78. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: Abstinence Only….
…is the ONLY system that works.
The problem is that people like Bristol have more gonads than brains.
If you don’t want to get ‘in trouble’ stay OUT of situations that could lead to it.
That doesn’t only apply to getting pregnant. It also applies to all matters of life. Cases in point….
If you don’t want to get mugged, you don’t walk down dark alleys in bad parts of town at night.
If you don’t want to lose a LOT of money, you don’t respond to e-mails from Nigerians who claim to be vice-presidents of banks there.
It’s REALLY much more ’simple’ than people like katie G! would like to think. And therein lies the proverbial rub. They don’t want to take responsibility for their actions. However, THEIR actions result in the life of another person that they are PERSONALLY responsible for.
Which only requires MORE ‘responsibility’….unless you decide to kill that person. And THEN—though they wished to avoid ‘responsibility’—the REAL responsibilities kick in…….
Hope that helps…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 26, 2009 - 12:48 pm 79. Joshua Chamberlain:Let’s only do things that work 100% of the time!
Umm, what if pre-marital sex and contraception were, shall we say, immoral?
Feb 26, 2009 - 1:44 pm 80. Chuck Pelto:TO: Joshua Chamberlain
RE: 100%
Sooooo….
….when’s the last time YOU played ‘Russian Roulette’?
Not playing it, 100% of the time, assures you a MUCH better chance of survival.
Don’t you think?
But then again….based on your comment….maybe you don’t….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 26, 2009 - 2:49 pm 81. Chuck Pelto:[Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid. -- John Wayne]
P.S. What does ‘morality’ have to do with it, anyway?
Or maybe the thoughts in that Old Book DO have some suggestions on how to live life better…….¯heaven forefend!!!!!˘
Feb 26, 2009 - 2:50 pm 82. Mary Jackson:Best to teach: be good, but if you can’t be good, be careful.
Feb 26, 2009 - 3:21 pm 83. Meaghan SV:Teens are going to do whatever they want weather they’re told to not do so or told to do so. It’s a personal choice, and as the years change more and more are becoming hard headed whether parents teach them right or wrong. I believe a parent can direct there teen on the right track but won’t be able to make decisions for them, they’re going to do what they want.
Feb 26, 2009 - 3:28 pm 84. Chuck Pelto:TO: Mary Jackson
RE: Teach….
…to play Russian Roulette.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 26, 2009 - 3:33 pm 85. Chuck Pelto:P.S. As the WHOOPER in Wargames eventually decided….
…The safest way to play the game [of global thermonuclear war] is NOT to ‘play’.
Feb 26, 2009 - 3:56 pm 86. momof3:Katie G work on your grammar, punctuation, spelling, and overall writing ability before trying to sound more intelligent than others here. The aforementioned work would pay much higher dividends than popping that defensive “screw you” chip up on your shoulder when you’re corrected. That’s really not going to fly in the working world.
“it’s the effort of responsibility, that’s all”
That’s the most pathetic thing I’ve ever heard. One must merely make the “effort” and you’re covered? Is that how so many people have become crappy parents raising crappy ignorant self-absorbed kids? Because they made their token effort and then got back to what they wanted to be doing anyway? DO all Americans aspire to be like DMV workers throughout their entire lives now?
Feb 26, 2009 - 5:55 pm 87. acj:Hey, men want us to think sex is for sex, but they are the ones that make boobs into sex objects instead of parts of us that give milk for feeding babie they make.
Feb 26, 2009 - 6:08 pm 88. Amy:I agree with Katherine and believe that abstinence isn’t the only thing that should be taught to kids. I believe that they should be taught abstinence (and that it is a very important thing to teach them) but I also believe that they should be taught how to protect themselves if they do deciede to have sex.
Feb 26, 2009 - 7:02 pm 89. Chuck Pelto:TO: Amy
RE: Uuuuhhhhh
Unless you haven’t noticed…..
….the moment they decide to have sex is the moment they start having babies. That’s how it works.
Hope that helps…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 27, 2009 - 1:43 am 90. Aaron:[Every four seconds a woman has a baby. This woman must be found and stopped.]
I guess through similar reasoning we could conclude that Tim Geitner’s tax failures prove that education in economics is unrealistic.
Do kids that receive education in birth control not get pregnant? Is that also proven unrealistic?
All that the example of Bristol Palin proves is the obvious, that abstinence education cannot guarantee abstinence. The purpose of educating someone is to help them, and how do we know that abstinence education did not help young Bristol? Is it plausible that without the influence of a family that stressed abstinence she could have been pregnant one or two or three years earlier?
Yep.
However increasingly rare it may be, young people are capable of self restraint. But it’s significantly less likely that they will practice such virtue if they never hear about it.
Feb 27, 2009 - 6:50 am 91. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: This Sad Case….
….is just ONE instance.
I’d REALLY like to see the statistics on each form of ’sex education’ and the teenage pregnancy rate in a county by county study that includes religious beliefs and practicing. This should also include demographics on marital status of the family the girl is in, etc., etc., etc.
Is there such a beastie? Otherwise, we’re just shooting in the dark.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 27, 2009 - 3:57 pm 92. Jane:[If corn oil is made from corn and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, what is baby oil made from?]
Now it can be that people from other religions are also coming to do this meditation. Buddhists would say this is potentially confusing, but again if you are doing the method you are opening up to the programme that takes you on the road towards that distant realisation of Nirvana. It’s just that, again, you don’t have to know that to be on the road to doing it.
Feb 27, 2009 - 9:23 pm 93. G Alston:#69 — “How is it that abstinence worked so well for so many centuries (up to and including my own teen years) but suddenly, it’s just not realistic?”
I don’t know when you were a teen but I’m relatively old (I have grandkids) and I never lacked for intimate companionship as a teen.
Today people blame hypersexualised media imagery but I doubt that this has very much to do with it. Unpopular or otherwise undistinguished boys today don’t seem any more successful at getting laid than their 1950’s era counterparts.
#63 — “So, commonality of getting married at 14 or 15, or even 16, in the 1700’s or 1800’s, is a myth.”
Insufficient bandwidth. The broad sweep of history since we became human (say 50,000 years ago) is the important factor. From this perspective humans have always married off girl children when young (food burdens) until relatively recently (last millenium.) And even then hard times force us to revert. During eras of scarce food in the middle ages it was not uncommon to marry off girls when young. And that’s just western society. Examine the last few hundred years of the rest of the planet (humans live there too) and you’ll see something entirely different than your own geneological anecdote.
Hormones kick in soon after menarche for an evolutionary reason, so in that sense abstinence “education” isn’t realistic.
#71 — “Having large numbers of children out of the safety of wedlock is the best way to destroy a society yet discovered.”
And your historical example is… (I’ll take “non-existent” for $200, Alex.)
#91 — “I’d REALLY like to see the statistics on each form of ’sex education’ and the teenage pregnancy rate in a county by county study that includes religious beliefs and practicing. This should also include demographics on marital status of the family the girl is in, etc., etc., etc.”
And undoubtedly your starting assumption would likely be that proper girls from nice religious Beaver Cleaver households are less likely to get pregnant. We have a summer place on a lake in the midwest. Little town there, very religious. Sex ed is barely taught. Condoms aren’t handed out. Abstinence is an article of faith. Very Cleaver-like. Pregnancy rate for HS girls there is about double that of the “godless hellhole” we live in the rest of the year. This is merely anecdotal but makes sense.
What would be far more effective is a study of socioeconomic status and teen pregnancy. Kids that have things do do and enough money to do them seem to correlate inversely. It’s not relgious affiliation that’s important. Household structure of single parents probably trends towards more pregnancies, but this doesn’t prove that there’s a failure from the lack of nuclear family so much since it also correlates negatively with income (kids having things to do and enough money to do them.) I’m certain that the basic study of this by the experts is likely to be along these lines. Certainly if the answer were as simple as promoting the health of religious affiliation this would be borne out in academic studies from various sociology departments. I think you’d have to contend that sociologists are somehow conspiring otherwise; one of those bizarre anti college-smarts rants I see periodically.
Feb 28, 2009 - 1:04 am 94. momof3:G Alston again: having spent 4 years in one of those sociology departments and read the studies, even when one controls for socioeconomic status, kids from single parents get pregnant earlier, and commit more crime. Fact.
Kids having money can actually backfire. Kids with jobs tend to get in trouble the least. They’re too busy and have responsibilities. Teens with part time jobs average higher grades than unemployed ones, and have a higher graduation rate.
Perhaps the teen pregnancy rate in your little religious summer town reflects a pro-life atmosphere where the teen pregnancies aren’t flushed down the toilet like a dirty kleenex? Seems just as reasonable as assuming they just have sex more often or less responsibly.
Feb 28, 2009 - 7:01 am 95. Chuck Pelto:TO: G Alston
RE: Soooo….
….you got any evidence supporting the assumption they aren’t?
Or are you just passing gas?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 28, 2009 - 7:05 am 96. David S:P.S. Your arguments ’stink’….
Of course abstinence education is unrealistic. So are many other government policies.
The bottom line on sex education is that kids need to know the mechanics, and how to use protection. Condoms save lives.
Peace.
DS
Feb 28, 2009 - 7:57 am 97. David S:@78. Chuck Pelto:
I guess that depends on your definition of “works”.
I assume you also have two gonads and one brain, unless you have been surgically altered. Most of us come equipped with more gonads than brains – evolution provides redundancy where it most contributes to reproductive success.
Abstinence education is doomed to failure because the biological imperative is a far more powerful motivation. Mediating this imperative by providing education on prophylactics seems to me a more responsible choice than pretending sex is “bad”.
Peace.
DS
Feb 28, 2009 - 8:05 am 98. G Alston:#95 Pelto “….you got any evidence supporting the assumption they aren’t?
Plenty. You do your own homework however. Start here:
scholar.google.com
#94 momof3 — “Perhaps the teen pregnancy rate in your little religious summer town reflects a pro-life atmosphere where the teen pregnancies aren’t flushed down the toilet like a dirty kleenex?”
Even if true this would be merely making the case that the rates are relatively equal on a statistical level. Pelto’s assumption still wouldn’t be validated.
However, it’s not true; I was talking RATES, not dispositions, and this subject is about rates. Funny thing the area is all over the pro-life issue. There are anti-abortion billboards. What’s funny is that any time this is put to an actual vote the pro-choice side always wins.
South Dakota is similar. 2004 and 2008 the anti-abortion groups had state level ballot measures to outlaw abortion. Billboards presenting the pro-life case are all over the state on the road approaches to countless little uber-religious little towns just like the summer town. It’s the very picture of small town white America. The anti-abortion groups not only lost in that red state, but they were outright stomped. And it was the pious residents of the supposed pro-life towns who dunnit.
It appears Pelto presumes piety correlates to upbringing and similarly you seem to think piety correlates to a pro-life stance where pregnancies aren’t flushed. Hard actual data (not presumptions, but DATA) such as South Dakota voting patterns say that you’re wrong.
Your constant bringing up of abortion even in topics not about it indicates that you seem to think it’s being used as birth control, and primarly by and for and supported by the “godless heathens” and their leftist leaders that dominate the urban areas. Sorry. This isn’t true. It’s not just the “godless heathens” who support it. It’s also your pious brethern living in smaller picturesque Beaver Cleaver white towns all across America.
Keeping to the topic abstinence “education” seems less effective than sex ed and handing out condoms.
Feb 28, 2009 - 9:42 am 99. Chuck Pelto:TO: David S[tupid]
RE: Definitions
“I guess that depends on your definition of “works”.” — David S
Works as in you don’t get pregnant if you abstain.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 28, 2009 - 11:05 am 100. David S:P.S. Try not to take any MORE English or ‘logic’ lessons from Bill Clinton. It just makes you look stupid.
@99. Chuck Pelto:
Thanks for the clarification. I was concerned you might be asserting that ‘abstinence only’ education had been successful. I know you love to get in a dig on Clinton, but you were being ambiguous, which is why your definition was needed to make my point complete. Thanks!
Peace.
DS
Feb 28, 2009 - 1:24 pm 101. Chuck Pelto:TO: David S[tupid]
RE: Got Any Stats?
As I asked above, where are the stats?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Feb 28, 2009 - 2:40 pm 102. acj:[Only an idiot would try the Clinton 'definition' ploy....]
Every woman should carry an assortment of condoms in her pocketbook and let the guy choose what color he wants…amd that means every woman that wants to have sex for 13-84 yrs old!
Mar 1, 2009 - 6:08 am 103. Chuck Pelto:TO: acj
RE: Or….
…every guy should carry a card—authentic or not—that he’s had a vasectomy.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Mar 1, 2009 - 12:06 pm 104. Chuck Pelto:P.S. My point in the previous item is that women can lie about the veracity of their ‘protection’ as much as anyone else.
Mar 1, 2009 - 12:07 pm 105. Chuck Pelto:P.S. ‘Oddly enough’….
…that’s how I came of my second ‘brilliant’ and ‘attractive’ daughter.
I just wish she’d pay as much attention to her father as she does to her—from me estranged—mother.
I mean this kid is BRILLIANT. But I’ve had NO influence in her development. It’s all been up to her ‘mother’. And I have to admit to grave concerns about THAT!
Mar 1, 2009 - 2:29 pm 106. katie G!:Thanks for your advice but I honestly don’t care about my formality on here because this is a response on a website. This isn’t a life changing deposition so please don’t try and make me feel stupid because I know i am not. Also you must not understand what i am saying by the effort of responsibility. I am saying that if abstinence isn’t the most effective form of education then teach students to be responsible, IF they choose to have sex. Enforce the importance of making big decisions, like having sex. Don’t be lazy and make the EFFORT to take precautions. That does not mean that students will become worthless self-absorbed adults. I am becoming a pharmacist as well as behavioral psychologist and I don’t think the effort of my responsibility is MERELY an effort; it’s a hell of an effort.
Mar 1, 2009 - 4:25 pm 107. momof3:G Alston, yet again, I brought up abortion because you brought up a little town where pregnancy anecdotally seemed more common in teens than in the inner city. I supposed a reason why. And:
‘Your constant bringing up of abortion even in topics not about it indicates that you seem to think it’s being used as birth control, and primarly by and for and supported by the “godless heathens” and their leftist leaders that dominate the urban…”
Given that-depending on which report you read (see your own search link above if you need help verifying this)-repeat abortions make up from 60-80% of all abortions, it’s pretty clear that it is in fact being used as birth control. By women who have already had one “oops” flushed away and still decided BC was just too damn much trouble.
I also have trouble with your anecdotal evidence, given that many inner cities have under-18 pregnancy rates of well over 60%. I’ve yet to see the small town that has one of every 2 teen girls pregnant by 18. And no inner city pushes abstinence-only.
Mar 1, 2009 - 5:31 pm 108. David S:@104. Chuck Pelto:
It appears that CP could benefit from some sex-ed. If you are sleeping with someone who might lie to you about their protection – why would you not bring your own? Pregnancy is not the only danger in this scenario.
Trust but verify. And use a condom.
Peace.
DS
Mar 1, 2009 - 6:04 pm 109. Chuck Pelto:TO: David S[tupid]
RE: Sex Education….
….as taught by the vaunted American public education system, does not, repeat NOT teach about people lying to each other, at least as far as I’ve noticed.
Then there’s the case of the guy who now has to pay $7M to a woman he infected with herpes simplex.
So….
….I wonder how many homosexuals are going to go after their erstwhile ‘lovers’ who infected them with HIV?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Mar 3, 2009 - 8:35 am 110. Gene Lalor:[Steam and creams are going to become the new form of 'lottery'....]
Sarah Palin’s Racism
I once said, actually more than once, that I hated black jellybeans. I never meant it to be a racist remark. I just didn’t like licorice, or “licorish.” I also favored cowboys in white hats as opposed to those guys in black hats who always seemed to be evil in one way or another. Even worse, I thought Sarah Palin was a very decent, intelligent, and caring woman, and a great Republican vice-presidential candidate in the last election.
I was almost proved wrong, not in my distaste for licorice and affinity for white hats but in my estimation of Sarah Palin.
Imagine my surprise to learn before the last election that she was a racist! How little I knew. I kept trying to understand why and how she became so bigoted and prejudiced that she could sink so low as to tarred with that vile epithet and I resolved to get to the bottom of the charge.
Maybe, I thought, it was somehow related to her job? Palin is the chief executive of the State of Alaska, in acreage the largest state in the union and, incidentally the only state in the union that seems to be weathering the current recession. That the governor is managing to keep Alaska solvent when so many other states are gasping for air, and begging to be stimulated by Obama, is indeed commendable but accomplishing that feat can’t rationally be explained by her racist attitudes so the cause had to be found elsewhere.
Maybe the pernicious seeds of her racism could be traced back to something she said? She certainly said a great deal to the condescending, supercilious Charlie Gibson but Palin said even more to the perky, wily Katie Couric.
Couric is widely credited with “bringing Sarah down” and the Republican ticket down last November with her CBS interviews of Palin, which also served to save Katie’s job. However, even though the governor flubbed some answers to Katie’s questions, nothing she said could even remotely described as racist.
The answer must lie in the governor’s personal life, it just had to since nothing else makes any sense and her life is so filled with negatives that it’s tough to remember them all.
Let me count those negatives. . . .
(Read the rest at http://genelalor.com/)
Mar 18, 2009 - 2:54 pm 111. ShyAsrai:Gotta say… I think you’re off on this one.
Just because promoting abstinence doesn’t always achieve abstinence doesn’t mean it isn’t a correct and worthy goal.
If society at large promoted abstinence – loudly, publicly and repeatedly instead of undermining healthy values – this issue of rampant premature sexuality would disappear.
Mar 24, 2009 - 1:39 pm