British TV’s Nasty Spin on the U.S. (Part 2)
Stephen Fry in America is an annoying BBC series that's obsessed with exposing all the country's warts. (Read part one here.)
Stephen Fry, who loves Americans, nevertheless irritated me in his BBC America series, for which he traveled across the U.S.
I will not go into a scrutiny of every visit to the fifty states, but is it not significant that my beautiful hometown, Philadelphia, is omitted from his journey altogether and that Louis Theroux, in his own BBC program, spends an hour showing us one mercilessly violent section of the City of Brotherly Love?
Fry travels across the American continent in a London black cab, most of the time looking like a weary, disheveled tramp. However, because Americans do adore anyone and anything British, he is given a royal welcome wherever he ventures. I kept wanting to take him to a barber.
In his first sojourn he visits New England and correctly observes that Britain could learn from the United States as he watches democracy unfold during the 2008 New Hampshire primary. Likewise he reminds us that Britain and Germany reaped benefits from the 1944 Bretton Woods conference in Mount Washington. What is notable about Fry’s peregrinations is the generosity of spirit afforded him, bordering at times on obsequiousness and, at its worst, reverence. How many expatriate Americans would love to be treated this way in Britain! (My most recent encounter with a cab driver: “You people don’t do yourselves any favors, do you? I mean, you don’t do much to make anyone like you!” Hmmm.)
Fry meets Peter Gomes, the black, gay, and Republican chaplain of Harvard University, who greets him as if the prince of Wales himself had graced his presence; we are told that “America had to make up its past.” This annoys me: it is a discourse into which Yanks place themselves when they meet Europeans, as if they have to apologize for being American. Inasmuch as many nations have tried to devise constitutional aspirations on the Jeffersonian model, the majesty of the Founding Fathers’ prose was hardly “made up.”
Fry quotes Gore Vidal: “The Pilgrims went to the New World to persecute” and introduces us to a real Salem witch. This is where the series goes horribly wrong for me. There is so much to see in the United States — its remarkable cultural institutions, orchestras, art collections, museums, and theaters, for one — and Fry spends six weeks touring with oddballs and vulgar specimens who are on the margins of society.
He dismisses my beloved childhood haven, Atlantic City, as a collection of “trashy, tawdry palaces” and fails to see the charm of the famous old boardwalk. “I personally find the whole business vulgar, tasteless, and desperately sad,” he says, an observation I found “desperately sad” because the place brought so much cheer to my late mother’s declining years. She was a supremely cultured woman — the quintessential intellectual, a respected Philadelphia teacher, and even a snob — but she adored her bus trips “down the shore” where she always beat the casino. In the 1800s Atlantic City was a resort frequented by impoverished immigrants and everyone went home happy. Stephen Fry is a foodie and had he had an American script editor he would have discovered the exquisitely delicious James’ salt water taffy, its historic factory in the same location since the mid-eighteenth century. It thrives amid the credit crisis. Oh, Stephen, how blind is a man who cannot see.
Fry goes to Washington, D.C., and refers to the points of interest as “nationalistic symbols.” I know my British friends of many years’ standing think Americans are “nationalistic,” but I challenge any nation on earth to boast as inspiring a spot as the Lincoln Memorial. James Wales, the head of Wikipedia, tells Fry, “America has a very bad reputation all around the world for various reasons.” (I suspect Wikipedia labeled an entry an anonymous admirer had made for me “not noteworthy” because James found out I am a flag-waving patriot.)
In Gettysburg we are told that the great address was “made over the bodies of slaves.” Puzzled, I tried to work out what was meant by this and did a considerable amount of research. Being a Pennsylvanian I could not understand how a slave-free state could have their bodies interred. What I did discover was the fact that nineteenth-century black men and women owned real estate in Gettysburg and that it was a crucial link in the Underground Railroad. After the Civil War three thousand Confederate white corpses were disinterred by free blacks and returned to their home states below the Mason-Dixon Line.
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Carol Gould is the Philadelphia-born author of Don’t Tread on Me: Anti-Americanism Abroad, Spitfire Girls, and A Room at Camp Pickett, a play about her mother’s experiences as a WAC in World War II; she has just completed films about black GIs and GI babies. Carol has been a panelist on BBC's Any Questions?, hosted by Jonathan Dimbleby, and is a commentator on Sky News, Press TV, the BBC World Service, and Five Live.
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93 Comments
1. MikeD:My hope is that shows like this keep the typical anti-American Euro-trash out and bring the less conformist, more discerning Europeans in.
Feb 10, 2009 - 12:32 am 2. Eric R.:Carol,
I might defend the overall thrust of your piece, but as a resident of New Jersey, I have to take issue with you on two things:
a) Casinos aside, Atlantic City really is a miserable dump.
b) Philadelphia is the butt end of jokes and the object of scorn even among American conservatives (such as moi) for its sky-high murder rate (4 times higher than in NYC), its mafia and its corruption.
And since both cities have long been run by the Democrats, let the BBC bash away at them. In fact, since they are run by Democrats, I’m surprised the BBC would focus on it.
And worst of all — I have sit here as a Mets fan while all the Phillies supporters lord their World Series championship over us.
Feb 10, 2009 - 1:57 am 3. Bishop Hill:An amusing riposte would be to make a mirror image programme with an American going round the UK. If Stephen Fry can visit slums and try to pass them off as representative, why not send PJ O’Rourke or someone like that to visit Easterhouse in Glasgow? Discover British culture in the bloodshed and drunkenness of a typical small town Saturday night out. The reactions would be interesting, particularly if you didn’t tell them what you were doing. Then when the BBC expresses outrage you can reveal your hand and revel in the hypocrisy.
Feb 10, 2009 - 2:05 am 4. Mary Jackson:Stephen Fry’s programme was overwhelmingly positive. It is a measure of Carol Gould’s paranoid obsession with seeing anti-Americanism everywhere that she can produce such a warped account of the programme. No doubt the usual suspects, who of course will not have seen the programme, will back her up in spewing lies and distortions about the UK.
What is notable about Fry’s peregrinations is the generosity of spirit afforded him, bordering at times on obsequiousness and, at its worst, reverence. How many expatriate Americans would love to be treated this way in Britain! (My most recent encounter with a cab driver: “You people don’t do yourselves any favors, do you? I mean, you don’t do much to make anyone like you!” Hmmm.)
You’ve said it! Stephen Fry was liked wherever he went because he is friendly, open-minded and witty. It’s pretty obvious why British cab drivers don’t take to Carol Gould, who is miserable, carping and precious.
Feb 10, 2009 - 3:17 am 5. Michael O'Brien:What an amateur. As if there are no stereotypes in Great Britain. Such a lazy way of reporting or editorializing.
Feb 10, 2009 - 3:19 am 6. David H:3. Now that is a good suggestion!!!
Feb 10, 2009 - 3:31 am 7. Danny Lemieux:It sounds as if Carol Gould’s expat experience is following a familiar path. Naive American goes to Europe and is seduced by its “newness”. They do everything better than us, obviously and we Americans are soooo out of it, bumpkins that we are. Soon, warts appear and Europe doesn’t seem so idyllic anymore. Over time, one begins to realize just how fundamentally different we are from one another and begins to miss home. Europe, with its lack of commonweal, excessive taxation, dysfunctional leadership, rampant crime and oppressive regulatory state begins to seem….oppressive. Finally, one returns to U.S. homeland as a confirmed conservative praising America’s new-found virtues. Been there, done that.
Feb 10, 2009 - 3:39 am 8. Valerie:why does the author think that Pres Bush is responsible for what NOrleans looks like today? what about the mayor of NO? The governor of LA? Pres Bush has something against blacks? what? gould needs to check in with the some of those people in black africa who consider Pres Bush a great man.
Feb 10, 2009 - 3:39 am 9. Mari:The vast majority of Americans are descendants of groups of people who came here because they were mistreated in Europe. Without exception, they have flourished here as they never did in their own countries. Jews, Catholic Swedes and Norwegians,the Huguenots,French Catholics,Bavarians, Albanians and of course, the Irish. Let’s see I just can’t remember who it was who tried to “eliminate” the Irish on their own soil by starving them all to death.I just can’t put my finger on it. Right next to Ireland. Had a couple of bloodthirsty kings and queens. Can anyone help me with this one? Stephen Fry might know. He’s so smart.
Feb 10, 2009 - 6:16 am 10. ThinkingPerson:Stephen Fry makes me glad yet again, that my forefathers got on that ship when they did! If anyone has taken a glance lately at a British newspaper, you come to realize quite quickly why he’s over here in the US looking for our “warts”. The UK is quickly dissolving into lawless mayhem. Knife wielding gangs killing innocents over cigarettes, socialized medicine that lets the elderly and the young die without care, not to mention the minorities taking over everything in the name of political correctness. I guess he’s trying to make the average UK Joe feel better about his/her own dire circumstances.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:12 am 11. Mary Jackson:So far, so predictable. None of you have actually seen this programme.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:19 am 12. Hugh:I can only hope this report reaches all of Europe and keeps our “morally and intellectually superiors” from crossing the pond. Some in the UK and Europe will understand this is one view of America that doesn’t show the upside or greatness of America. To them I say welcome. To the America haters that agree with this chaps view of our “evil empire” I say please stay on your side of the Atlantic. I’ve been to London and met people that looked down their nose upon learning I was a “Yank” and met people that loved that fact that I was a “Yank”. Overall we share a history since most of our forefathers are from the UK and Europe but again, if you are liberal Eurotrash with a holier than thou attitude, stay there, we have enough AmeriTrash with the same attitude here already.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:35 am 13. Dana:After living will beyond their own means on the backs of colonial peoples, the British have relinquished their country to Muslim immigrants. They are of less than zero consequence at this point.Who cares what they think?
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:39 am 14. Mary Jackson:this is one view of America that doesn’t show the upside or greatness of America.
Nonsense. It was one very intelligent man’s quirky and individual look at America, which he clearly loves. But what would I know – I only watched the programme.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:45 am 15. Vinny Vidivici:Spend any serious time outside the U.S. and you’ll notice that almost without exception, the image of the U.S. presented to many foreign audiences is one of ceaseless wickedness and venality. That is, when America isn’t being held up to the most vicious ridicule or characterized by the most lurid stereotypes. While there is plenty to debate and find fault with the U.S., there is never mention of its unique global responsibilities, its contributions, the generosity of its people, etc. The positives far outweigh the negatives, which is why the negatives have to be harped on so incessantly.
Unfortunately, the only America most people on this planet will ever see is composed of words and images selected by newsroom editors and television producers. Whether its Europe’s politically-compromised, hive-minded media or media organs under direct government control in places like China, the image I see presented is almost universally negative.
With no serious competing narrative on offer (think Plato’s cave) it’s no surprise opinion polls reflect ginned up animus. Insecure Americans who think it’s more important to conform and be well-liked than to do the right thing lap this sort of thing up.
Foreign media bellow at the U.S. at the behest of their political masters in the hope Americans will elect weak leaders more to their liking. That is, leaders easily seduced by purring European diplomats, easily conned by third world charlatans posing as ‘men of the people’, easily guilted by UN and NGO greivance hustlers, and easily impressed or intimidated by totalitarian gangsters posing as statesmen.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:47 am 16. Allyson Rowen Taylor:Stephen Fry is a boring little snit. He choose to seek out and deal with the seedier parts of a city, and then mock people who truly love America. I have been to England, and teeth aside, I could have easily shown the lack of style, the horrible food, and bad odors of many of the overweight women in the country, but I choose to focus on the wonderful elements of a country. What do you expect from the BBC??? America the Beautiful?? At least he broadcast in English and not Arabic, which by my thinking, he will have to do in the next ten years. How about a show from the BBC showing the demise of the British Kingdom????
Feb 10, 2009 - 8:40 am 17. Mary Jackson:Stephen Fry is a boring little snit. He choose to seek out and deal with the seedier parts of a city, and then mock people who truly love America.
No he didn’t. Bet you haven’t seen it.
Feb 10, 2009 - 8:48 am 18. Lynn:What is this new phenom that it is so important to Americans to be “loved” by Europe or to live with a European outlook? We aren’t and never will be the “New Europe”. For all the “warts” America is still the best thing to have happened to the world. We, as a people, have brought the world a long way in the last two hundred years in technology and industry, art and science, agricultural techniques, and medicine. We, as a people, are without a doubt the finest most open democracy on the planet. The generosity of Americans has no rival in the world when it comes to aid to foreign countries or in our homeland. We pay 37.5% of the UN operating costs, millions for HIV drugs and prevention in Africa, millions and millions to subsidize other less fortunate people (World Food Bank), fought wars for others independence (Kosovo, Iraq, South Korea, etc;). Like my grandmother said, “Remember who you are”.
Feb 10, 2009 - 8:50 am 19. Vinny Vidivici:Lynn:
“. . . this new phenom that it is so important to Americans to be “loved” by Europe or to live with a European outlook.”
It’s not necessarily a new outlook, but it’s certainly more prevalent. For decades, American students studying in Europe have passed themselves off as Canadian. The difference is that several generations of Americans (many now adults) were taught that morality emerges not from conviction or principle, but from a concensus of UN delegates, and that being out of sync with bien pensant thinking is backward.
In one of history’s greatest intellectual swindles, after plundering vast colonial empires for centuries and turning the 20th century into history’s bloodiest with a pair of world wars, the introduction of industrialized genocide and the invention of pernicious political ideologies which enslaved half the planet and left a stack of corpses 100 million high, Europe is still considered a repository of morality and wisdom. Go figure.
Feb 10, 2009 - 9:46 am 20. Morton Doodslag:Just like their Muslim invaders, the elites in British media, academia, and government systematically divert the attention of their captive and ignorant populations by stoking hatred for far off enemies. It keeps the people occupied in every sense while they’re robbed of their native wealth and dignity. While these ignorant populations (both Islamic and British/European) indulge in their various orgies of hatred, every vestige of dignity and power is stolen from them. It is highly ironic that the Euros and Brits, so filled with arrogance, contempt, and hatred, often look to America or Israel to vainly find the locus of the worst in world hatred. Apparently they are congenitally incapable of seeing the seething poisons of hatred which flow through their own hearts.
Just how out-of-control is our friend across the pond? Last Saturday, the Telegraph revealed “that a staggering four out of 10 CIA operations designed to thwart direct attacks on the US are now conducted against targets in Britain.” The UK no longer can control their exploding Muslim populations. They bow down, scrape, and debase themselves before their Islamic cavemen, but still peer into America’s eyes searching for motes. While Europe and especially Britain burn in the Islamic conflagration — they look to America to ferret out all our flaws, real or imaginary — this is a grave maladaption which augers ill for them all.
See: “CIA warns Barack Obama that British terrorists are the biggest threat to the US”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4550144/CIA-warns-Barack-Obama-that-British-terrorists-are-the-biggest-threat-to-the-US.html
The rank and rampant anti-Americanism which suffuses almost everything in the UK and Europe has their populace so utterly brainwashed that they are blinded to their own mortal peril in this world. One of the congenital trolls who rudely haunts Carol Gould’s posts at PJM, a certain poster known as “Mary Jackson”, is exemplary in this regard. She appears to be so drunken with this virulent anti-American mindset that she cannot even perceive the contempt oozing through nearly all BBC programming on a consistent basis. Like most of her blind brethren, “Mary Jackson” appears far more interested in picking fights with Americans who speak out about this intolerable state of affairs than in confronting the cancers which are eating her beloved nation from within. It is sad to witness. I feel very sorry for their predicament, but they have only themselves to blame for it.
Feb 10, 2009 - 9:48 am 21. Bugs:Somebody listen to Mary. Watch the damn program.
Feb 10, 2009 - 9:51 am 22. Ian Thorpe:Carol,
I have read your previous article and have to say for somebody who know Britain as well as you seem to you do not understand our mindset al all (BTW in program 2 – I think – Stephen does go to a Barber) The probable reason your cabbie said wht he did is American’s have a very irritating way of being positive to the point of hysteria about everything and of being offended when other people are not the same.
The comments about Atlantic City were not disparaging because Britain has many similar nineteenth century resorts. We are realist enough to know they are tawdry and tacky and love them for it. As for the inspiring qualities of the Lincoln Memorial, inspiring? Gercha! The great Cathederals of Chartres or Rouen in France or the Baslica of the Sacre Coeur in Paris, Mont St. Michel the island monastry off the French coast or the medieval city of Carcassone, the Cathar stronghold, any one of more than thirty Medieval Gothic Cathedrals in Britain, the neolithic stone circles of Stonehenge, Brgdar etc. The Houses of Parliament, The Tower Of London, the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey, Rivaulx, Whitby Abbey and many more, the medieval University buildings of Oxfor and Cambridge, the Celtic tombs at Newgrange, the Bronze Age leasrning centre of Skellig Michael, or the buildings of Imperial College Dublin in Ireland, the Alhambra Palace in Spain, Grece’s Parthenon or The Forum in Rome. The College of Henry the Navigator in Portugal, Stockholm’s old towm Gamla Stan in Sweden, Edinburgh Castle or the battlefield as Stirling in Scotland, the Bock, the great fortress of Luxembourg. All nations have their historic symbols. The Lincoln memorial is pretty run of the mill really and more a symbol of the flg waving, cheast beating faux – patriotism Americans mistake for genuine love of their country.
The rest us us love our countries warts and all. Americans refuse to acknowledge the presence of any warts. Now do you beging to understand that cabbie?
Feb 10, 2009 - 9:55 am 23. Ian Thorpe:@ #3 Bishop Hill,
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:11 am 24. Mary Jackson:PJ and Bill Bryson have already done warts and all portraits of Britain. We British loved them. It makes us puke when Americans start raving about how wonderful our country is. We know different and are mature enough to admit it.
She appears to be so drunken with this virulent anti-American mindset that she cannot even perceive the contempt oozing through nearly all BBC programming on a consistent basis. Like most of her blind brethren, “Mary Jackson” …bla bla bla..
Unlike you and your fellow Americans, I have … wait for it…. SEEN THE PROGRAMME. You and your fellow Americans are in no position whatsoever to comment on what you know nothing about, but this will, I fear, not stop you.
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:12 am 25. Morton Doodslag:“The Lincoln memorial is pretty run of the mill really and more a symbol of the flg waving, cheast beating faux – patriotism Americans mistake for genuine love of their country.”
What staggering arrogance.
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:12 am 26. Morton Doodslag:Not to mention staggering ignorance. Ooops. I mentioned it.
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:14 am 27. Mary Jackson:“Anti-American” Stephen Fry, in an interview with Good Housekeeping:
“I absolutely hate that sneering anti-Americanism. [America] has its share of nuts: out of a quarter of a billion people you’re always going to get some. But they are as polite, friendly, charming and honourable as any people I have encountered.”
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:20 am 28. Morton Doodslag:Please note, Mary Jackson, that I did not claim to see the Stephen Fry show, although I did see much of Mr. Schama’s. His condescension towards his subject was rampant, and his devotion to seeking out those scurrilous story lines which reinforce the worst stereotypes about America was obvious to any fair-minded viewer. Only a Brit steeped in contempt for America and Americans wouldn’t be able to perceive it. You are such a one.
Further, much of my own personal evidence for your anti-American depravity comes from many years of experience traveling to the UK and Europe, many years reading the execrable press found there and watching the endless rancid coverage of America in your media. One needs to look no further than the fulminating rants you consistently post at this site, or to posters like “Ian Thorpe” to comprehend how vain, smug, or scornful Britons can be.
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:42 am 29. JoshC:Mary, it’s quite obvious that almost all of the posters, including the OP, haven’t seen it and aren’t interested in watching a programme that is overwhelming positive about the US.
Feb 10, 2009 - 10:52 am 30. Mary Jackson:“Morton Doodslag” – why do you “put” “us” in “quotation marks”? Is it to make yourself seem “ironic” and “sophisticated”?
Feb 10, 2009 - 11:38 am 31. bucketz:British television presenters are obsessed with post Katrina New Orleans. They rush over here to stand in the middle of it and ‘tsk tsk”
Top Gear drove there once, and it was part of the challenge to give away their cars in New Orleans.
Feb 10, 2009 - 11:41 am 32. Morton Doodslag:Jeremy Clarkson was quite surprised to have a woman threaten a lawsuit for him misrepresenting his trashed, graffiti riddled car.
My only thought was “Welcome to entitled America, Clarkson”
Ironic? Sophisticated? I leave that up to the pretentious bores of the world. By placing your nics in quotes I intended a certain symbolic benefit of doubt, assuming that few would post such patent drivel under their genuine names.
Feb 10, 2009 - 11:53 am 33. john galtis the man:If I were Stephen Fry , Id be more concerned with what the ISLAMIC SUPREMACISTS HATE MONGERS are doing to the proud Anglo tradition that started with the Magna Carta. Seems to me the ISLAMIC FILTH is by far a bigger threat than trashing the one country who has upheld the traditions started in England 800 years ago.
Feb 10, 2009 - 11:59 am 34. Mary Jackson:If I were Stephen Fry ….trashing the one country…bla bla…
Thing is, though, he didn’t trash it. He was incredibly, overwhelmingly positve about it.
Thing is, too, that you and the rest of you Americans WOULD NOT KNOW THAT. Guess why? Because you Did Not See The Programme. That’s why. Once more for the slow kids: you Did Not See the Programme, so you don’t know what you are talking about. Not even a little bit.
Feb 10, 2009 - 12:09 pm 35. kourosh:My problem is, why we the tax payers should support BBC in NPR and receive daily doses of junks with no relevancy to our life while the whole purpose of BBC is attcaking US? I found Fry to be equivalent of that fat bastard M. Moore. If I was Fry, I would concentrate my research on the African continent and discover what kind of atrocities were / are committed by British in the past and present. If you want to really analyze the slavery, why don’t you go to the place of its origin: England? Where did people who abused South Africans, and Rhodesians came from and what did they do to the blacks? Research that Fry.
Feb 10, 2009 - 12:12 pm 36. Jesme:I haven’t seen the program either. But oddly, Gould’s attack on the show makes it sound rather good, though she surely didn’t intend it that way. Despite her best efforts, she makes Fry seem fair, reasonable and positive. Gould harps on the show’s every criticism of America, as if there aren’t plenty of things to criticize, then grudgingly admits that Fry shows plenty of positive stuff as well. Who could ask for more? I think I’ll check out this show…sounds like fun.
Feb 10, 2009 - 12:30 pm 37. Mary Jackson:I found Fry to be equivalent of that fat bastard M. Moore
You’ve seen, it have you? Couldn’t be talking through your hat, after all.
Or have you perhaps seen the less than sylph-like Stephen Fry on something else, and thought: ooh, he’s a bit fat – must be like Michael Moore?
Feb 10, 2009 - 12:30 pm 38. Ed:I’m a red-blooded American, and I think you all have missed the POINT of the documentary!
Of COURSE he’s going to see the worst America has to offer…he’s a comedian, and his whole purpose was to mock British anti-Americanism. How did he do that?
In that classic British way; deadpan satire. He played the stereotypical stuck-up Brit, mocking the very thing everyone here is railing against! H
I believe Carol Gould didn’t realize this was a satire, and took him seriously.
Feb 10, 2009 - 1:55 pm 39. Uhlenspiegel:“for all its faults America outdoes the world in innovation, energy, and the ability to reinvent itself.”
Fry got it exactly wrong: It is because of those things that Fry (and others) perceives as faults that American outdoes the world, not despite of it. It is the one thing that most America observers just don’t get. But hey, that may be a good thing, who wants to share one’s secrets to success after all?
Feb 10, 2009 - 2:19 pm 40. DavidN:Some interesting points:
First, the drive-by superficiality of the Gettysburg comment is typical of the American left and outside critics. It’s ill-informed and silly, but sounds very profound and intelligent, in a condemnatory way, so it goes without challenge.
Second, the superficial disdain that so many Britons of a certain class of society feel for Americans is rather pathetic. They’re usually (I don’t know about Mr. Fry personally) of the class that would have been the peasant overlords of our ancestors, had said ancestors stayed in Britain. They seem to feel personally betrayed when the peons fled to another country and made something of themselves, and are especially offended that those peons have become more successful and prosperous than their erstwhile feudal betters. You have to wonder why so many Brits come here to work and live (and star in American TV and movie productions) if we’re all such buffoons and ignoramuses.
Feb 10, 2009 - 2:28 pm 41. D. Guthrie:Who cares what he thinks, he’s British!!
Feb 10, 2009 - 2:41 pm 42. Cato:I think it’s telling that the vast majority of examples cited by Ian Thorpe are more than 300 years old. Europe has a magnificent past, no doubt. But it is rapidly using up its patrimony, like a middle-aged man who retired too early, and discovers that his savings and pension are insufficient to keep him living in the style to which he is accustomed, but refuses to cut back. It’s time to get back to work, or to retrench. Instead, Europeans choose to carry on like everything will always be hunky-dory, secretly hoping they die before things get too bad.
Incidentally, Ian, Americans are well-aware of their “warts.” They just don’t care to see themselves constantly defined by them alone, especially by those whose warts are even more abundant.
Feb 10, 2009 - 2:50 pm 43. Mary Jackson:and star in American TV and movie productions)
‘cos we’re better actors than you.
Feb 10, 2009 - 2:51 pm 44. joeblough:Considering what Europe has brought us in the last century, WWI, WWII, Nazism, Fascism, Marxism, Freudianism and now the joys and wonders of Islamization with it’s murders, street riots, Jew baiting, domestic violence and neighborhoods where even the police dare not go — I am not inclined to pay much attention to what Europeans have to say about us here in America.
Maybe their distant ancestors were terrific, but they and their more recent antecedents aren’t worth a dime in my book.
Let them get their own house in order before they presume to pass judgment on us.
Feb 10, 2009 - 4:54 pm 45. D. Papaccio:I don’t see why foreigners have such a compulsion to magnify every blemish in the American landscape–we do a pretty good job of it ourselves. Now how about turning the camera on yourself… Hmmm… Don’t see that happening. Could explain why America succeeds in so many venues, including race relations and integration of immigrants, while Europe flops time and time again. Oh! Did I dare say anything critical of euroland? Please forgive this ugly American. Ha!
Feb 10, 2009 - 6:40 pm 46. Heather:Ian Thorpe: “Americans refuse to acknowledge the presence of any warts”
Are you kidding!? What planet do you live on? America is so self critical it’s revolting.
Feb 10, 2009 - 6:47 pm 47. Bruce:Stephen Fry Quote: “I absolutely hate that sneering anti-Americanism. [America] has its share of nuts: out of a quarter of a billion people you’re always going to get some. But they are as polite, friendly, charming and honourable as any people I have encountered.”
This tells you about how knowledgeable Fry is on the United States. The US population hasn’t been one quarter of a billion since 1995. It’s now at a ripe 305 million, which is closer to one-third of a billion. Geez, if you can’t even get the population of a nation correct, how can you begin to critique it inside out? And the eros are always telling Americans how ignorant we are? I only wish the 56.2 million Brits would go blow off onto another galaxy.
Feb 10, 2009 - 6:50 pm 48. L. Laderiuex, New Orleans:Before everyone gets completely riled, understand that the british portray every nation on earth based this way, although granted they do reserve a little extra vitriol agains the US. It’s part of britain’s imperialist impulses to thumb their noses at the rest of the world. the British have invaded virtually every nation on earth, enslaved the natives, raped the landscape, and stole away the spoils to the queen. When you live on nothing but a crummy island with few resources, but a huge navy, you feel it’s your “calling” to do such things. Nothing really has changed in Britain, at least not the imperialistic attitudes anyway, although their military is a joke today. They seem to find fault everywhere except with themselves. So before you get all upset about antiAmericanism in jolly olde england, you should see how the brits portray Russia and Australia!
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:25 pm 49. Mary Jackson:P.S. I’d rather live in post-Katrina New Orleans than Oldham. No American familiar with Oldham? Google it.
56.2 million Brits
60 million. And Stephen Fry isn’t “critiquing” the US, he is loving it.
Not that you’ve seen the programme. Not that any of you ignorant Americans actually know what you’re talking about.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:42 pm 50. Peter W.:I used to work for an international company HQed in Chicago with a smaller office in London, which we opened as part of an effort to expand globally. Soon after we would actually get anti-American hate email from the people at the london office, generally they were sent to all personnel in Chicago HQ. The emails would come from managers to mailroom guys. It usually consisted of polical rants about America’s alleged violence and racism and all the cliches that go with antiAmericanism, children dying from no health care, the usual left wing propaganda dribble. It was some odd stuff, I tell you! Never really came across anything like it. A few times someone from the Chicago office would reply and suggest the London staff get back to bussiness and leave politics at home. During the Iraq buildup in 2003, the emails from London got even more hostile. In some cases we really thought they were losing it. In the end our company dissolved, in large part because the London office was costing us millions to keep up yet brought in no profits. Bad planning on our part. The whole experience has led me to believe that there is something seriously wrong with British society that they would behave in such a fasion. I couldn’t imagine sending hate mails to people in an office 5,000 miles away. Very strange indeed. I feel sorry for them. The one good thing about our company dissolving is we didn’t have to read any more of their hate mail.
Feb 10, 2009 - 7:53 pm 51. D. Papaccio:40. DavidN:
“They’re usually (I don’t know about Mr. Fry personally) of the class that would have been the peasant overlords of our ancestors, had said ancestors stayed in Britain. They seem to feel personally betrayed when the peons fled to another country and made something of themselves,”
That’s what makes America so great. My dad used to stomp grapes in southern Italy, in the USA he became a business owner and retired at 55 and now lives the high life in sunny Florida, he never could have had all that in Italy unless he was part of the elite corrupt class.
Feb 10, 2009 - 8:03 pm 52. Dana:Even our own president is the son of a goat herder. How great is that!
“49. Mary Jackson:
56.2 million Brits
60 million. And Stephen Fry isn’t “critiquing” the US, he is loving it.
Not that you’ve seen the programme. Not that any of you ignorant Americans actually know what you’re talking about.”
Mary, who are you? Why do you care so much? People aren’t on here to discuss that stupid program in particular, it’s a bigger issue. And that is anti-Americanism in the UK which runs so deep today its crippling your nation. I’ve been there, saw it, experienced it, was scared to death by it quite honestly. I read newspapers on line from all over the world. The UK media portrays a US that I never see, even in the worst of areas, worse than Al Jazeera and even worse than the New York Times! The true ignorance comes from the UK where people think they are experts on US culture based on watching “Law and Order”, Bonanza reruns, and horrible cheap BBC “documentaries” about people who allegedly love the US.
Feb 10, 2009 - 8:18 pm 53. Jonesy55:This site gets more and more ridiculous by the week, a reporter completely twists the content and tone of a BBC programme to make it sound as anti-american as possible when it was actually nothing of the sort and then legions of crazed fools (who incidentally have never even seen the programme) come to add their two cents about how this proves that the UK (and indeed the whole of Europe) is a doomed continent of ignorant, racist, communists.
As they constantly trot out the same old cliches that their right wing media likes to repeat about us (we hate black people, we like to kill jews, our standard of living is going down the pan, our streets are full of rioters and murderers, we are incapable of self-criticism, we are all snoots who look down our noses at Americans etc etc), they then don’t see the irony in saying that we are all brainwashed by the media here.
Feb 11, 2009 - 2:07 am 54. Jonesy55:Several people have made comments along the lines of ‘they criticise the US but they would never criticise their own country’.
This is a complete, 100%, absolutely false lie, British journalists, writers, TV presesnters etc are constantly pointing out the faults of the UK, often to the point of obsession. It really is quite arrogant to think that the US is the only nation on earth that is capable of self-criticism.
Maybe you should just have a slightly thicker skin, if an American calls Blackpool a dump, I would tend to agree with them, if a Brit calls Atlantic City a dump he is rounded on as some sort of vile imperialist scumbag commie. Grow up.
Feb 11, 2009 - 2:11 am 55. Mary Jackson:The UK media portrays a US that I never see,
And Carol Gould portrays a Britain that exists only in her fevered imagination. And the posters here, who know no better, swallow her lies hook, line and sinker.
Feb 11, 2009 - 2:24 am 56. Jonesy55:“An amusing riposte would be to make a mirror image programme with an American going round the UK. If Stephen Fry can visit slums and try to pass them off as representative, why not send PJ O’Rourke or someone like that to visit Easterhouse in Glasgow? Discover British culture in the bloodshed and drunkenness of a typical small town Saturday night out.”
Be my guest, the BBC and other British broadcasters have already made many such documentaries though so you might just want to buy one of of those to show in the US.
You seem to have swallowed Carol’s spin on this programme without question which is a shame, if you actually watched it, you would find that it was nothing like what is being described.
Feb 11, 2009 - 3:15 am 57. Camo:#15 Vinny Vidivici:
“Spend any serious time outside the U.S. and you’ll notice that almost without exception, the image of the U.S. presented to many foreign audiences is one of ceaseless wickedness and venality.”
…not to mention idiotic and/or cowboyish.
Feb 11, 2009 - 6:37 am 58. Northern Light:As a Canadian I thought I’d offer a few comments on the subject of how the world sees the USA.
First, I want to say something nice. The American constitution has the greatest emphasis on personal liberty of any constitution I have studied (I have a degree in political science). Your Supreme Court has spent much of its time on the question of what to do when the liberties of one group or individual conflicts with the liberties of another group or individual. No matter what you may think of the decisions that the Supreme Court has made, it can’t be denied that this is a difficult job that America has devoted more time and effort to than almost any other nation on Earth. I may love Canada, but I have to admit that we have many flaws. One of which is we didn’t get a Bill of Rights in Canada until 1981.
Having said this, I thought I’d mention one reason why the world has such a poor image of the USA.
America has very little left to export. Your manufacturing base is gone, you are a net importer of natural resources, and for several years your scientists have had trouble making breakthroughs due to government interference (stem cell research comes to mind). So, one of the few things America has left to export is its popular culture. The entire world watches American TV, listens to American music, and although most nations produce movies, it’s American movies that people all over the world line up to see.
If you wonder why the rest of the world sees Americans as stupid gun-happy vigilantes, ask yourself what you would think of America if all you knew about it was from TV, Hollywood movies, and rap music.
Feb 11, 2009 - 8:54 am 59. Chancey:Whenever I try to criticize another country, my fellow Americans get more upset than when I criticize America. They are actually more personally insulted if you say something negative about America than if you say anything nasty about Europe. I don’t know why this is. Media brainwashing to hate your own country perhaps? Whatever the case, it’s clear from my experiences that Americans care more about Europeans than their fellow Americans. Most Amerians say they would go to battle to save Britain before they would save California. How does this make us hateful fascists? If only more Americans were hateful we’d have some value and self respect left in this country. We’ve been completely brainwashed by a left wing media to loath ourselves. Don’t you see, Europe–our media has allowed you to win. We Americans now bend over for you. You should be more gentle when you screw us.
Feb 11, 2009 - 10:14 am 60. Marie Claude:I think it’s telling that the vast majority of examples cited by Ian Thorpe are more than 300 years old. Europe has a magnificent past, no doubt.
uh ho, not so old and or over as far as we are concerned (idem for Germany and UK) if they are warts or not, I also don’t care
Nile Canal, France
Effel tower, liberty statue
photo, Daguerre, France
cinéma, frères Lumière, France
architecture : le Modern Style
olympic games, France
Aviation, France
radio-activity, France
neon, G. Claude, France
TGV, France
…
But it is rapidly using up its patrimony, like a middle-aged man who retired too early, and discovers that his savings and pension are insufficient to keep him living in the style to which he is accustomed, but refuses to cut back.
I guess that your referring to France,
though it’s Sarkozy’s challenge to make it change, though the idea of working until an advanced age is admitted ; the prodject is on negociations, that’s why there are some mobs mobilisations from the same ol administrative privilegieds
It’s time to get back to work, or to retrench. Instead, Europeans choose to carry on like everything will always be hunky-dory, secretly hoping they die before things get too bad.
umm, who’s gonna die ??? not us, “chi va piano, va sano e va lontano”
Feb 11, 2009 - 10:45 am 61. Blackwell:while you want the things “right now”, stressing breaks your heart !!!
Northern Light: there may be much to your point that a ceaseless stream of US movies and TV shows depict us all as homicidal gun owners, but i wonder if its not more than that. My take in part:
Diaries from WWII show upper class englishmen inwardly sneering at US soldiers for their “inferior breeding.” Hitler dismissed the US as a mongrelized culture and worse; french intellectuals have detested us for decades, self-styled intellectuals in India and elsewhere fancy themselves as far more refined and humane, and the worshipers of Castro and Mao simply seethe that the US exists. All this pre dates WWII and certainly predates 1970. I bet it predates my mom’s arrival here from Canada in the 20’s.
The US provides endless chances at school unlike Japan and other places where the ‘elite” are marked early and the unsuitable ones shunted off to lesser jobs. Our universities aren’t confined to the “best of the best” as professors determine them and that grates on people who think they ought to be. Encountering a US student who is not an elite version of their own, they conclude they are so much smarter. They sneer at us. Meanwhile, the non-elites go on to found Microsoft (Gates dropped out of college), federal Express (the founder received a “C” for his paper at business school describing the concept) or Ford Motor company (Henry Ford never went to college).
Virtual unknowns also pop up as millionaires, making more than professors and the aesthetes who fancy themselves to be superior human beings. That grates on our intellectuals here and abroad. It is inconceivable to the self appointed intellectuals (who measure intellect by books read, opinions held, useless papers published) (or at least written) that some blue collar type could be wealthier than they are. Its “proof” that the society that allowed that inexplicable disparity is rotten somehow.
Communist writers from day one through the fifties, bemoaned the “crassness” of the US (meaning, the country allows things I don’t like or value), ignoring the capitalist role in promoting freedom and its rewards to those that give people what they want.
The US is –for now at least–unabashedly capitalistic, which grates on those self styled elites, since it opposes top down decisons in favor of markets. Markets reward things intellectuls detest, and so are “crass,” as are countries that prefer markets to the wise administration of the upper classes.
Nationalism is another issue that others outside the US find offputting: lots of places find it more than offputting: they see it as infantile, moronic and a fit subject for lots of sneering. Our own expats left the US for Europe in the 30’s, convinced that the US wasn’t fit for civilized people. They came slinking back to safety in 1940, but they never really changed their minds.
Most of us are patriotic (although we have the element that cannot bear the sight of a US flag and have the vapors if the national amthem is sung). But minorities here tend to want to become absorbed and be “an american” as opposed to somehting else. The black population here had as good as reason as any decades ago to opt for separatism but never did: they pushed to get all the way in and did. That frustrates outsiders, who couldn’t understand why blacks didn’t revolt all the time. In every war, blacks pushed to fight–no wonder the intellectuals were frustrated! You should see a Fourth of July celebration: huge crowds of all races, ages, religions. It helps unify a country: but intellectuals are just beside themselves at such a thing. Churchill described “bespecaled intellectuals” refusing to stand even as late as 1940 for “god save the Queen.” That’s the type that really detests us–and we revel in it, which makes it worse I suppose.
Such a crass country must have a crass people–so “intellectuals” here and abroad “just knew” that masses of people wouldn’t vote for Obama because he’s black–but they did and aside from perhaps 50,000 people among 300 million, no one really cares what he is as long as he does a good job.
Anyway, that is my take. I don’t see it as new. Intellectuals really want to be the strong voice at the King’s court–they cannot abide the ability of an unlettered bumpkin (I believe the description of Ronald reagan by some newspaper reporter in Washington D.C.) to rise.
Oh….I also suspect that the US, aided by immigration from Mexico and their helpfully high fertility, will remaina young country while others age. Our manufacturing isn’t what it used to be but its still there. Its that oil that’s killing us and we’re working on that.
All the best,
Feb 11, 2009 - 1:21 pm 62. Freddy:Instead of the european commentators on here bashing Americans for daring to stand up for their own country (God forbid!) why don’t you express some outrage that your countries are putting out so much hateful antiAmerican propaganda? I know if American shows constantly depicted Europe as a seedy cess pool full of violence (more close to reality than it is in the US btw) the average American would not stand for it. We would be embarrassed. It seems that us “hateful, violent, racist, fascist” Americans really are the good guys when you see how we treat Europeans versus how europeans great Americans. If the shoe fits, in other words. You Europeans should really be more embarrassed about the amount of antiAmericanism coming from your continent, unless, of course, you agree with it.
Feb 11, 2009 - 2:22 pm 63. Jay K.:Why Carol Gould still lives in the UK when she hates it so much I don’t understand. But here is a Brit who lives in the US and doesn’t seem to like it much either. He brought over his contempt of Americans with him, along with his snooty attitude and hatred for the National Athem. Perhaps these two should trade places (but that’s what got this Brit in trouble to begin with!). Read further: http://tv.yahoo.com/blog/husbands-behaving-badly–120
Feb 11, 2009 - 4:19 pm 64. Northern Light:Blackwell, you certainly have a point. I’m just going to mention that Canadians seen in Europe as “stupid colonials” and you have no idea how badly French-Canadians are treated in France.
Feb 11, 2009 - 4:27 pm 65. Marie Claude:Northern light, funny I wasn’t aware of that !!!
my canadian montrealese family isn’t complaining when it comes over,
) lesser these late years though, cause of the low dollar, may-be that the Canadians you are thinking about are poor or they are whinning ; though I accord you that the Parisians are not very patient, but they are so with any provincials, included the French
OK they have means to pay the nicest hotels in Paris (a bit more pricey than the Holiday Inns
Also, may-be, that we don’t find their sense of humor very funny, (ie guy lepage and consorts…, their singers are boring, except Diane Dufresne and a few other that don’t monopolise the TV shows
Feb 11, 2009 - 5:28 pm 66. nadadhimmi:Wait till the muslims start the mass beheadings in Europe. Prob happen 1st in Holland and Norway. These pussies will wail and cry and beg the cowboys to save them, please save them as we did from the Nazi’s. You know what? I don’t think they are worth it this time. Besides, we will have our hands full with our own 5th columnists such as Pelosi, Reid, Murtha, Shumer, and the “MESS-IAH” himself. These individuals are socialist dogs that will eventually have to be dealt with, prefferably at the ballot box, but dealt with nonetheless. Our constitution demands we defend it against all enemies, forgein and domestic.
Feb 11, 2009 - 9:02 pm 67. Jonesy55:“Instead of the european commentators on here bashing Americans for daring to stand up for their own country (God forbid!) why don’t you express some outrage that your countries are putting out so much hateful antiAmerican propaganda? I know if American shows constantly depicted Europe as a seedy cess pool full of violence (more close to reality than it is in the US btw) the average American would not stand for it. We would be embarrassed. It seems that us “hateful, violent, racist, fascist” Americans really are the good guys when you see how we treat Europeans versus how europeans great Americans. If the shoe fits, in other words. You Europeans should really be more embarrassed about the amount of antiAmericanism coming from your continent, unless, of course, you agree with it.”
But the right-wing American media DOES constantly portray Europe as a cess-pool of violence, jew killing, economic stagnation, muslim takeover, the axis of weasels, cheese-eating surrender monkeys, a continent of snooty stuck-up people, racists, communists etc etc etc.
I see very few US commenters on articles like these that festoon the right-wing media expressing embarassment about such a twisted portrayal, instead they love it, they lap it up without question and repeat these allegations ad nauseum however wide of the mark they may be.
Feb 12, 2009 - 5:19 am 68. Jonesy55:“Blackwell, you certainly have a point. I’m just going to mention that Canadians seen in Europe as “stupid colonials” and you have no idea how badly French-Canadians are treated in France.”
No, that’s not actually true. Many people here in the UK have Canadian friends and relatives and we get along just fine, you are just trying to stir up division and animosity by claiming such things.
When I lived in France, I worked with several French-Canadians who seemed to enjoy life there very much, there didn’t seem to be any bad-feeling there either, just some good-natured banter about the inpenetrable Quebecois accent and their strange (to French ears) ecclesiastical expletives.
Feb 12, 2009 - 5:25 am 69. Jonesy55:“Wait till the muslims start the mass beheadings in Europe. Prob happen 1st in Holland and Norway. These pussies will wail and cry and beg the cowboys to save them, please save them as we did from the Nazi’s”
Further to my other post, stuff like this from Americans is not at all uncommon, no embarassment is ever expressed for such nonsense, just a chorus of agreement.
So why would you expect Brits to feel embarrased for a TV programme such as the subect of this article which painted the US in an overwhemingly positive light?
Feb 12, 2009 - 5:29 am 70. deguello:This is what passes for European nuance, sophistication, and incisiveness. Europe can no longer produce Tocquevilles,instead it sends us a superficial,snobby,self-righteous queen, to “analyze’ a country,he resents, because unlike himself, it believes in its right to exist.Americans will have the last laugh, when the Muslims overrun England, and Fry winds up inmured,along with the rest of the equally corrupt euro elites.
Feb 12, 2009 - 7:37 am 71. Mary Jackson:This is what passes for European nuance, sophistication, and incisiveness.
So you’ve seen the programme then?
As this is an American website, I will add [/sarcasm] for avoidance of doubt.
Feb 12, 2009 - 4:28 pm 72. Eric R.:Jonesy:
But the right-wing American media DOES constantly portray Europe as a cess-pool of violence, jew killing, economic stagnation, muslim takeover, the axis of weasels, cheese-eating surrender monkeys, a continent of snooty stuck-up people, racists, communists etc etc etc.
Maybe that’s because Europe IS IN FACT a cess-pool of violence, jew killing, economic stagnation, muslim takeover, the axis of weasels, cheese-eating surrender monkeys, a continent of snooty stuck-up people, racists, communists etc etc etc.
Feb 12, 2009 - 5:29 pm 73. Marie Claude:Eric R, your a broken coo-coo, that alway clings “ding-dong”, but no new sound expected, OK, —-> in the trash-bin right now !!!
Feb 12, 2009 - 6:33 pm 74. Jonesy55:“Maybe that’s because Europe IS IN FACT a cess-pool of violence, jew killing, economic stagnation, muslim takeover, the axis of weasels, cheese-eating surrender monkeys, a continent of snooty stuck-up people, racists, communists etc etc etc.”
If you only get your information from sources that wish to portray it as such then I can see why you might think that. You are wrong though.
Feb 13, 2009 - 2:08 am 75. deguello:Mary Jackson: Case inpoint: clever snideness,passing as intelligence from the people who declared Geert Wilders unwelcome.get ready to wear a Burkha in your lifetime mary!
Feb 13, 2009 - 5:24 am 76. Jonesy55:‘get ready to wear a burkha in your lifetime Mary’
You wish, it ain’t going to happen though, sorry to disappoint you.
Feb 13, 2009 - 5:47 am 77. deguello:Within our lifetimes,jonessy;can you say:”DHIMNI”?Congrats, on keeping Wilders out by the way;it’s good to know that in “cool” britannia, Chamberlain’s legacy lives on.
Feb 13, 2009 - 6:03 am 78. Lynn:Dear Mary Jackson et al
Feb 13, 2009 - 6:49 am 79. Jonesy55:Since the majority of our ancestors left the EU due to hunger, religious repression, and a lack of being able to progress, we see very little advantage in not defending ourselves. I see zero advantage in Europeanizing the US, particularly when you guys have destroyed freedom of speech. The program was tongue and cheek, but the pot calling the kettle black is exactly what some posters do resent.
Yes, I can say Dhinmi [sic], your point is? Keeping Wilders out was not a decision that I made actually (maybe you think that Jonesy55 is a pseudonym for Gordon Brown?), in any case he’s much more famous today than he was last week.
It still ain’t gonna happen, despite your obvious wish for it to. You would absolutely love it if Europe were to end up in that situation, you would be jumping up and down with glee it’s clear, but you will be sadly disappointed.
Feb 13, 2009 - 6:53 am 80. Jonesy55:“Since the majority of our ancestors left the EU due to hunger, religious repression, and a lack of being able to progress”
Either that or they wanted some free land and the owners in North America were more easily dispossessed than the owners here in Europe.
Seriously, I’m aware of where this simmering resentment of Europe and the associated bizarre combination of inferiority and superiority complexes in the American psyche comes from, but that doesn’t make it any less annoying.
We are different in some ways, we’re also similar in other ways and there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be able to get along just fine despite those differences. It would be a bizarre world indeed if we forced people to be identical to ourselves in every aspect of outlook, politics, tastes and beliefs before we would consider being friends with them.
Feb 13, 2009 - 7:38 am 81. deguello:Actually,No I don’t believe you are Gordon Brown;however judging from your comments, you probably voted for him,and agree with the poltroonish decision to keep Wilder sout. What a wonderful notion,BTW: So denying someone entry to the UK , because of his political views,is somehow a good thing because it makes him famous? Wow? why don’t more dictators use that line of thought! Like I said: DHIMNI (SIC) ;UK SICK! Keep channeling Chamberlain,keep descending into the cesspool of appeasement,and forget to learn Arabic!There will no longer be an England!
Feb 13, 2009 - 8:07 am 82. Vikram:If Europe is such a hotbed of intellectual superiority, then why do 75% of their PhDs move to the United States, with less than 20% ever returning to Europe? That is a EU statistic itself. http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/2739 Harvard has more money than the entire French university system combined. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/world/europe/12france.html
Feb 13, 2009 - 8:07 am 83. Marie Claude:According to statistics, the redneck doofuses are in Europe, not the United States.
Vikram, simple, because our universities manage more successful motived studentsso that our PHDs are bought with golden prices by your universities, got to think that you can’t produce much of the priceds of your own, for a long time now !!!
Feb 13, 2009 - 8:28 am 84. Marie Claude:Lynn, search in your dustbin, the socialo-commies virus are in your own body since a long time, your don’t need to copy us, it has its own self development means, you need to learn how China became communist, when one knows how Chineses have the sense for capitalist tradings, astonishing, nah ???
Feb 13, 2009 - 8:35 am 85. jonesy55:tell me if you need some links LMAO
Vikram,
I don’t see anybody claiming that Europe is a ‘hotbed of intellectual superiority’, but you do realise that the link doesn’t actually support your claim that 75% of Europeans with phds move to the US don’t you?
It may be worth bearing in mind that in the 30 years to the mid 80s, Europe caught up rapidly with the USA in terms of GDP per capita and even over the past 15 years while the US has been crowing about its superiority, as many Europeans (excluding the ex USSR) live in countries which have gained relative to the US on that measure as live in countries that have fallen back.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant though!!!
Feb 13, 2009 - 2:41 pm 86. jonesy55:Deguello, you are wrong on all of those charges against me, which suggests that you may be a bad judge of character, something that may be a factor in your erroneous predictions about future events in England and Europe.
Wanting something to happen will not make it so.
Feb 13, 2009 - 2:50 pm 87. Amerian Patriot:“It may be worth bearing in mind that in the 30 years to the mid 80s, Europe caught up rapidly with the USA in terms of GDP per capita”
Oh, then it seems Europe should be far more gracious to the United States. For you see, how on earth do you think Europe was able to achieve any growth at all? Thanks to the 100,000 US soldiers stationed on your soil keeping you from killing each other, and of course American investment which accounts for more than half of your economy, and in some countries, like Germany, it accounts for nearly 80%! American investment in the 1990s accounted for ALL of Ireland’s growth, which skyrockted to from one of the poorest nations in Europe to one of the wealthiest in the world. You’re welcome!
Feb 13, 2009 - 3:27 pm 88. deguello:American patriot : Let’s not forget that if it were not for the huge US defense expenditures,the European countries,own defense expenditures would have been so large that they would have prevented the funding of the euro welfare state.
Feb 14, 2009 - 12:18 pm 89. deguello:Jonessy: Thanks for the condescension. However it’s quite clear judging by cultural developments in europe, it’s continued declining birth rate, its support for pc multiculturalism,and its unsustainable welfare state. That you ARE in decline vis a vis a vigorous,militant, galvanized, imported Muslim population that smells your corruption, and is getting ready to strike.As for the charges against you,answer me one thing: Do you believe Wilders should be kept out of England? Yes or no?
Feb 14, 2009 - 12:24 pm 90. jonesy55:Deguello, no, neither should Louis Farrakhan be banned as he is for the same reasons.
American patriot, US investment is worth 80% of germany’s economy, any figures to back that up? It sounds preposterous. Maybe the stock of FDI is 80% of GDP I don’t know but that’s not really relevant and it isn’t remotely the same thing as 80% of Germany’s annual economic output flow being due to US investments, and I’m sure that you are aware of that distinction.
Deguello, the ‘imported’ muslim population make up a tiny proportion of the European population and most of those people are just regular joes wanting the same as most people do, a job to pay the bills and a better life for their kids than they had, those who are ‘militant, galvanised and ready to strike’ are a small minority of a small minority. The US has a Muslim population of several million anyway so I wouldn’t be so smug if you genuinely think that they are all evil.
Feb 14, 2009 - 3:10 pm 91. Deguello:Who is smug? We have a serious problem in the us, not only with an unassimilabley militant muslim immigrant community, but with a mexican invasion,being mobilized to take back the Southwest.No, I don’t believe Farrakhan should be banned,although putting him on the same level as Wildeers(if that was your intention) is simply wrongheaded(I am being kind).Finally, though, we do seem to have common ground: I’M glad to see you believe in freedom of speech.Don,t underestimate the power of a small minority;especially vis-a-vis a terminally corrupt governing class. The Communists, Nazis,et al all started out as tiny minorities.Not all germans were Nazis nor were they alevil, but they went along just the same.
Feb 17, 2009 - 8:26 am 92. Martha Thomson:Regarding dysfunctional leadership symptoms and warning signs, I read an article by Med Yones, a leadership mentor, saying “the larger the organization, the more susceptible it is to the breakdown of communication, the emergence of management silos and misalignment”. Thus, leaders as well as human resource managers should keep an eye open for the symptoms and treat the root causes before it is too late. For more information on dysfunctional leadership read the link below
http://www.iim-edu.org/dysfunctionalleadershipdysfunctionalorganizations/index.htm
Feb 24, 2009 - 9:14 am 93. Kate Landon:All this is very well and good but may I just add to what Mary Jackson keeps saying and suggest to some if not, as is apparent, most of the commentators here that you, and I can’t put this in big enough letters WATCH THE PROGRAMME. It’s not a tiny prerequisite there my dears, it’s quite a big one.
I did watch it and I too got angry… because if anything I found Fry almost sycophantically positive about your country in it. Carole Gould: with respect, were you watching the right programme on the right listing? I’m actually baffled: he says nothing but lovely things about America!
Mar 14, 2009 - 3:25 pm