Pajamas Media

219 Comments

1. SeanLA:

Sounds to me like you’re mad that your pot connection got temporally interrupted
Maybe You’re so stoned you missed the part about how they were snowed and set up like bowling pins by opportunistic politicians and immigration `reformists’ the parts about the deals made with the dealer and the withholding of his crimes past and future in their defense. The dealer you empathize with is not a good person and frankly, I hope they would have offed him and put such a small dent in the drug trade.
no one is saying they are heros or good cops for what they did, but the punishment did not fit the messy crimes committed on all sides.
Even the prosecutor said he surprised by the mandatory verdict.
I think the thing they are most guilty of is being bad shots, and for that they served their time.

Jan 21, 2009 - 1:38 am 2. Mike2:

Well Mr. Owen, that’s your side of the story anyway. Lame. Too bad Bush didn’t pardon them.
———————————————
Who is John Galt?

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:09 am 3. Chris:

Fitting. Among his last acts in office is pardoning a man who shot someone in the back.

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:35 am 4. Bill:

Maybe Bush could make it all better for Bob by pardoning the Mexican dope dealer now..hes serving time on yet another dope run!!

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:55 am 5. Roy M:

It is a bad decision to commute these sentences.

Police need to know that if they shoot a person and then lie about the circumstances then they are going to jail. We need to understand the special pressures that police are under when deciding wether to use lethal force ot not. The assumption should be that they behave honorably, up to the point they are found to have lied. Then, whatever the circumstances, no matter how justified the use of force was, it should be jail time.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:01 am 6. Beldar:

Bob: I agree with you most of the time, but I think here you are missing a very, very important point.

Dubya commuted their sentences. He didn’t pardon them.

Pardoning them would have been a statement that what they did, as found by the jury, was okay. I agree with you that it wasn’t.

Commuting their sentence corrects what many, including me, think was prosecutorial overzealousness in seeking sentencing enhancement against peace officers on grounds that they used firearms (which their job duties REQUIRED them to carry).

You remember, I’m sure, the incredible abuse of the pardon power by Dubya’s predecessor. Dubya, by contrast, has granted fewer pardons and commutations than any modern president. He showed similar finesse and respect for the jury system in only commuting Scooter Libby’s sentence, rather than pardoning him outright.

I agree that reasonable minds can differ about whether commuting these two long-serving officers’ sentences was appropriate. I can’t agree with your statement that this was Bush-43’s “final mistake,” nor the broader implication that he’s guilty of the same abuse of the pardoning power that Clinton committed.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:03 am 7. Camo:

Your article conspicuously accused the officers of wrong-doing by stating that “Compean tried to butt-stroke him with a shotgun…” and that the officers “… illegally fired weapons at a fleeing man who was no threat to them.” It has been my experience that many officers will shoot a fleeing, dangerous perpetrator who is running from a crime scene, especially after fighting with the police. Do you want them to wait while the offender draws a weapon?
Your article also fails to mention that the alleged butt-stroke attempt and not being a threat came from the drug dealer’s testimony. It seems if it was the officers’ intent to murder this “victim” then they would have shot him at point blank with the shotgun, and not try to butt-stroke the drug dealer. It sounds like they may have been trying to subdue the criminal, who fled after fighting the police.
While wrong, officers who fail to file a proper police report probably have no faith in support from their superiors and fear for their jobs.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:09 am 8. Jerry:

Drug dealers have no rights, illegally crossed border selling drugs I say shoot em and let the buzzards eat em

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:29 am 9. canuck:

The one who should have been sent to jail was Sutton the Federal Attorney. The degree of misconduct on his part was stupendous. He tried to shake these guys down and failed. He was strutting and preening for the public all the while suppressing evidence and turning a blind eye to the crimes of his “witness”. That is one appointment we have to hope President Dumbo does not renew.

I agree with the previous poster…the country would have been far better served if the two agents had been better shots.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:29 am 10. howiem:

Their only mistake was not making sure he was dead.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:35 am 11. Brandyjane:

There are two versions of this story, and it sounds like you believe the drug smuggler’s version. After hearing the evidence for myself, I believe the law enforcement officers’ story. But perhaps I’m wrong. What motivation would a drug smuggler possibly have to lie?

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:43 am 12. Vaughn:

Any one who shoots or kills a drug dealer is a hero in my house.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:47 am 13. Pat Patterson:

The reason law enforcement agencies have shooting rules is to prevent JC-educated knuckleheads from shooting because they were sure that the guy running from them is the guy they were looking for. They lied to their immediate supervisor, lied on their report, suborned perjury from the other BP agent at the scene, lied about seeing a “shiny object” and the jury didn’t believe one word they said during the two week long trial.

PS-Davila was such a successful drug dealer that he was living on his mother’s couch during this period and after shot couldn’t afford to got to a doctor and used duct tape to try to stop the bleeding. And the truly depressing thing about the case is that if the two agents had followed procedure Davila would have been arrested and most likely convicted but instead the entire Border Patrol was left with a reputation of shooting unarmed people and then lying about it.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:50 am 14. Fernman:

Unfortunately Mr. Owens does not grasp the issues involved in Rameon and Campeoen arrests. The prosecutors could not even prove that any cover-up took place and this shallow blurb attempts to portray these individuals as “shady” agents. Furthermore, the so called “victum” was in the process of committing federal crimes and he continued to run drugs after the “buttocks incident”.
This issue should have never been raised above a three year suspension and demerits for everyone around. The years in jail were only done to appease the Mexicans and at the end of the day the Mexicans continue to kill innocent civilians across the border in the name of drug running.
Know your facts before writing about stuff you don’t know. Thanks.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:56 am 15. Craig:

“Commuting their sentences after two years? Perhaps sentences of 11 and 12 years were a bit excessive to some…”

Perhaps? Since when do first time offenders (suggesting of course that a drug dealer’s story is the absolute truth which is incredibly insulting)get 12 years for anything short of murder?

To Some? That’s why there’s been such an outcry and why you’re writing about it. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are outraged over the verdict and sentencing.

If the 2 border patrolmen did indeed fabricate and file false reports, then disciplinary action or loss of job should be the worse of it.

Bush’s Final Mistake? Not hardly. Bush’s final mistake was pandering to the ‘amnesty for illegal aliens’ crowd to the very end.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:16 am 16. Evil Otto:

I’m glad Bush commuted their sentences. His “mistake” was not granting them a full pardon, and not doing it sooner.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:26 am 17. mishu:

Sounds to me like you’re mad that your pot connection got temporally interrupted
Maybe You’re so stoned you missed the part about how they were snowed and set up like bowling pins by opportunistic politicians and immigration `reformists’ the parts about the deals made with the dealer and the withholding of his crimes past and future in their defense.

Oy vey. Sounds like you know nothing about the law and only want to keep smelly Mexicans out.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:35 am 18. RJ:

Sure, let’s have these guys rot in jail. Let’s have your other buddies continue to do their work on the border. It’s a jungle out there, right?

Cops and robbers, same coin just different sides.

Perhaps you need to climb higher up in the cop organization to see how these guys even thought about shooting the fleeing drug dealer. Throw in some torture language, etc. The cops love this type of work.

Most times they win, and some times they lose. Same goes for the bad guys.

Next up: Lawyers and judges. How do you feel about them, bozo?

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:40 am 19. Tony R:

One last chance to take a swing at Bush The Easy Target eh? Yawn.

Perhaps you should also investigate to find out of he was polite enough to the last doorman to open a door for him while he was still President…. maybe you could write a Bush-bashing story about that too?

He’s gone now. Time to…ahem….move on!!

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:53 am 20. aloysiusmiller:

I have a relative in the BP who says that there is little sympathy for these men in the BP for more reason than the incident they were jailed for.

Why no pardon for Scooter Libby?

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:17 am 21. Dick Cheney:

It’s too bad the drug dealer wasn’t a lawyer instead. In that case, the agents could shoot him in the face and they wouldn’t have even been charged.

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:21 am 22. GDT:

1. SeanLA: Sounds to me like you’re mad that your pot connection got temporally interrupted Maybe You’re so stoned you missed the part about how they were snowed and set up like bowling pins by opportunistic politicians and immigration `reformists’ the parts about the deals made with the dealer and the withholding of his crimes past and future in their defense.

17. mishu: Oy vey. Sounds like you know nothing about the law and only want to keep smelly Mexicans out.

Me: No pinhead. SeanLA, Me and most of America are worried about the law and would just like to keep the smelly drug dealers out.

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:28 am 23. Juke:

“But instead of arresting Davila, Compean tried to butt-stroke him with a shotgun. When Compean missed and lost his balance, Davila took off. Compean then fired 14 shots at the fleeing Davila, missing with each shot. Ramos, claiming he saw something shiny in Davila’s hand, fired and dropped Davila with a bullet in his buttocks.”

Sounds good to me!

They arent police, they’re border agents. I want them to shoot alot more who invade our country….without prosecution.

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:33 am 24. Lynn:

I’m glad their sentences were commuted. Bush did the right thing.

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:33 am 25. Matthew O'Brian:

What a bunch of bleeding heart BS. Drug dealers coming across the border illegally have absolutely no rights. I say shoot them all, but make sure they’re dead before you go.

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:46 am 26. D. Grant Chee----:

Criminal cops, overzealous prosecutors, cowardly defense attorneys, lazy/hazy judges and crazy jury members have combined to wreck our sense
of justice in America. Obviously the drug dealer is in jail on another drug running attempt. Too bad Rameon and Compos were amateurs with a badge. Too many rogue cops are making good cops look bad. Time for cops to police their own ranks—tired of crims with a
badge on my payroll.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:07 am 27. Spider79:

Dear Bob O.

I usually like your stuff. This one has me questioning my judgement. You are wrong.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:21 am 28. Stanley:

I’m upset Bush didn’t pardon them. They should have been fired for not killing this piece of crap in the first place. Mr. Owens must be smoking some good stuff if wants the majority of the American people to have any sympathy for a low life scum drug dealer. A shoot first policy at the border would keep us safer and save alot of money in the progress. Ask California who loves to hand out cash to illegals and then come crawling with their hand out to the taxpayer. You states that encourage illegals made your bed now sleep in it. Thank goodness Bush finally got enough pressure to right this injustice.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:35 am 29. REM:

I live in TX and we’re pretty much overrun with people crossing illegally. I can see the side of the people coming over for good jobs, etc. But, this drug dealer is scum and I don’t give a rat’s butt that he got shot. People like him are why there’s a war going on down on the border. F him.
Way to go agents and I’m sorry you didn’t get the pardon you deserved.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:43 am 30. ThinkingPerson:

Agree with the masses…Bob, you missed the mark here. Bush should have pardoned them completely. The one issue I vehemently disagreed with Bush on was his immigration stance.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:45 am 31. Hugh:

Well done Mr. President. They served enough time.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:50 am 32. Yanqui Bruto:

I was thinking of joining the Border Patrol, then all of this happened and I thought, “Why am I going to put my life on the line, again, for an ungrateful country?”

-Iraq War Veteran

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:12 am 33. Mike Hicks:

Thank you George Bush for setting the two border agents free. They still have to spend 2 more months behind bars, the way I read it, I would think they would get an immediate release. It wouldn’t matter what you would do, there is going to be a herd of piranhas attcking you for whatever decision you made, and I’m glad you made the right one.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:19 am 34. Edwardo:

Bush should have pardoned these men and allowed them to be reinstated, Now they could be expert drug smugglers themselves. The drug smuggler low life SOB .. why he’s going to Mexico for Pot is beyond my reasoning and those low life dope smokers why are they buying from this dumb ass smuggler is also beyond me. What other crimes are being covered up ?? this is my next thought and the never ending uses for duct tape.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:21 am 35. Max Power:

If Compean and Ramos are heroes and didn’t do anything illegal, why did they coverup their crime? Oh, well. As long as McDonald’s has their Shamrock shake in March, Americans are happy.

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
–Bertrand Russell

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:23 am 36. mishu:

Me: No pinhead. SeanLA, Me and most of America are worried about the law and would just like to keep the smelly drug dealers out.

That drug dealer running out knucklehead. Regardless, if these BP agents did their job properly, he would have been in jail and the pot seized. They screwed up. Two guys couldn’t take down one guy without firing on him while running away? At least they can’t get their jobs back.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:24 am 37. Conn:

Pres Bush did the right thing. They should have put the mexican fleeing the border agents in jail instead.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:25 am 38. Brian C.:

Mr. Owens, you left out a number of “small” details: 1) the drug smuggler made other trips into the U.S. smuggling drugs prior to the trial; 2) this information was surpressed from the jury; 3) three jurors claimed they were instructed that the judge would not accept a hung jury.

America is a great country. Everyone enjoys freedom of speech, even idiots like you.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:27 am 39. Redhead Infidel:

This article is a POS – you don’t even have your facts straight. This entire article is misinformed dreck. But at least you can “feel good” about defending a scummy drug dealer against American citizens. How enlightened.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:29 am 40. Brian C.:

“Cops that shoot fleeing suspects in the back, leave the wounded suspect to fend for himself, and then attempt to cover-up the incident deserve considerable jail time, and sentences of 11 and 12 years don’t seem excessive in that context from where I sit.”

Are you aware they are serving time in solitary confinement?

You are a fricking idiot. With “conservatives” like you, who needs liberals?

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:32 am 41. molonlabe28:

I would personally like to take Ramos and Compean to the range to address their marksmanship issues.

14 misses at a fleeing drug dealer is inexcusable.

So where is the guy with the buckshot in his butt and a van chocked full of pot?

Someone please tell me that he is in prison.

Shame on Ramos and Compean for covering up and lying, but I am glad they tried to cap this drug dealer.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:32 am 42. Tom:

What’s the matter, Bob? Hate cops? Or just love illegal alien drug dealers?

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:32 am 43. ctaylor:

I think everyone has to remember-the guy they shot WAS A CRIMINAL AND AN ILLEGAL! Running is what they do-even when they are armed-they have to take cover from the chaser dogs and bullets coming their way. So what if the guy claims he was unarmed-If I found a stranger had broke into my home-I am darn sure going to grab my weapon and take aim at him,even if he claims he is unarmed-the man was an illegal and that makes him a criminal-the criminal was a known admitted drug smuggler.

Just because a terrorist hasnt set his armed vest off yet doesnt make him any less a terrorist. Drugs are part of the funding of crime and terror networks. Illegal drugs in their least dangerous forms create gang crime and addictions that have a human cost which far exceeds trying to rationalize the imprisonment of two men who didnt follow protocols properly. Anyone not on the side of defeating that needs to be shot in the butt.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:33 am 44. urbanleftbehind:

How much you want to bet- that if Ramos and Compean were freckly-faced guys named Ramsey and Campbell – they would still be serving time?

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:35 am 45. Tom Co.:

This article is amazingly ignorant. The prosecutor Sutton, yet another of Bush’s long time incompetent Texas buddies, has been all over TV saying the sentence was too excessive. Then why did he press for the 10 year mandatory gun charge crime? The crime of using a gun in the commission of a crime is particularly stupid when applied to guns issued to agents, for actions while on duty. This was meant, and is always used, for thugs using a gun robbing a store, carjacking, and stuff like that. Now if these two were using their guns to rob a 7-11 while on duty (imagine that), then OK, the 10 year mandatory gun charge would make sense.

This is a fascinating story because, yeah, a hooked-in border town jury ruled in favor of a crazy prosecutor applying inappropriate laws – bad laws on the books because of stupid law writers, on a crime against a Mexican.

The Bush team’s original plan was to dump on these two agents to make nice with Mexican immigrants, for cheap political points. Pure evil.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:36 am 46. Pablo:

I’m not upset with the commutation. But if Ramos and Compean had reported the encounter properly, they would never have gone to jail.

We ought to have a problem with it when those whom we trust to uphold the law act in bad faith and break the law in doing so. That said, I don’t think the trial was fair and I do think that the agents became a political football. They have paid and will continue to pay for their wrongdoing. I think Bush did the right thing here.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:37 am 47. anorm:

President Bush did the right thing commuting the sentences on these two men. The poor injured drug smuggler was caught a few months later doing the same thing and is now in jail himself. Too frickin bad for him. God Bless the Border Patrol(along with President Bush) and hopefully the border will be secured to the point that gun battles with Mexican nationals on US soil won’t be a part of daily life down here.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:37 am 48. Ken:

Even the prosecutor thought the punishment was too harsh, but I guess you know better, eh Bob? Nobody called them heroes, they are just ordinary men trying to protect their country. They shot a scumbad drug runner and they couldn’t lock these guys up fast enough.

I have no doubt that the immigration situation will worsen dramtically over the next four years, but these men and women do this job so that you can sit in your nice safe office and type up ridiculous articles like this. Personally, I don’t think you care one bit about either one of these guys, or justice for that matter. It’s just another reason for you to bash Bush. I feel sorry for you, Bob. With Bush out of the White House your life suddently has no meaning.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:38 am 49. Chico:

Now maybe you should write about what the prosecutor didn’t tell the jury, or about the deal they made with the drug dealer to testify against these two agents, or the number of times since the illegal alien smuggled drugs across our borders and then write about where the loser illegal immigrant is now!
Funny how you liberals always side with ANYONE who is against or hurting America.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:45 am 50. Carol Tufts:

Thank you, George Bush for yet another wise decision and act. As the article demonstartes, your measured and appropriate responses are so ridiculously distorted that it is actually funny. Well we have a new king on the thone that will be adored bu the same idiots that tore down everything during the Bush administration. Godspeed to George and Laura. Thank you.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:47 am 51. Disappointed Conservative:

“They illegally fired weapons at a fleeing man who was no threat to them. Once they shot him, they didn’t try to arrest him; they left him bleeding from his wound. They then tried to cover up their illegal shooting, committing other crimes in the process of the cover-up.”
They deserve to spend over a decade imprisoned for the above??? Are you kidding? Considering the ridiculous pc culture which has invaded law enforcement one could understand their attempt to cover up the shooting. Bush’s big mistake was his illegal immigration policy. Conservatives felt betrayed and there is no way he could apply the rule of law as strictly as you propose when conservatives were well aware of his willingness to chuck the law for his illegal immigration policy as quickly as he chucked his free market principles
.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:49 am 52. RodBlago:

F the smuggler, Bush should have pardoned those 2.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:52 am 53. John Galt:

And this is exactly why I quit reading Pajamas Media some months ago. Damn you HotAir for linking to this!

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:52 am 54. CrusaderPatriot:

First of all, they shot him in the butt and not in the back has the title of the article suggests, although he gets it right further down. Justice wasn’t done because the guy they shot was a illegal alien drug runner/dealer who was set free while the agents rotted in prison. This commutation was long over due! The lesson for border agents learned here is that your Government favors illegal alien drug runners over you and if there is ever a questionable shooting arrest made, they should consider leaving no witnesses or wind up in jail themselves! Urbanleftbehind is right, if these were two white agents the cries of racism would drown everything out and they’d probably be in jail for life.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:54 am 55. Wearyman:

Allow me to translate Bob Owens’ column into plain English:

Bob Owens: I believe the half-baked story of a convicted drug smuggling illegal alien scumbag and an overzealous anti-law and order lawyer over that of two dedicated law enforcement officers.

Thank you Mr. Owens, for making it so abundantly clear what a naive tool you are.

Thankfully, President Bush saw things a little differently, and recognized that these two honorable men had been punished far in excess of any minor crime they may have accidentally committed in the performance of their duty. President Bush then commuted their sentences, allowing these two men to be reunited with their long-suffering families.

Mr. Owens, please take your BDS and shove it where the sun don’t shine. Good Americans aren’t interested in it.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:00 am 56. Paul A'Barge:

They illegally fired weapons at a fleeing man who was no threat to them

Dude, the guy was a criminal who was running away.

Shooting runaway criminals is what law enforcement officers do. Not just stand there and say “oh well, he’s no threat to me at this precise moment because he’s running away from me”. No, they shoot the dirt bags.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:04 am 57. Fantom:

Actually, they are heros. We need more like them. Here is a link to those who wish to donate funds to these wonderful heros. Show your appreciation.

http://www.patriotunion.org/ramos_and_compean_faq.htm

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:07 am 58. Please Stop:

guess what, Mr Owens. Your sixth-grade interpretation of this issue aside, regardless of what this criminal scumbag claims, it doesn’t matter.
When you come into this country for the purpose of comitting a crime, you get what you deserve.
If only this skell had bled to death in the desert, we wouldn’t have to hear all the whining from people like YOU.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:08 am 59. oldleprechaun:

The worst “crime” of these two BP guys was not being able to take the scum down with one round.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:09 am 60. J. Richner:

The old saying goes I’ld rather be judged by 12 then carried by six! I can only think these men may have been thinking that. President Bush did the right thing on this, and I am proud of him getting this one right. Wow, I thought this web sight was for conservatives not bleeding liberal hearted folk. The author gets this totally wrong, and I think I was just swindled into providing my email address for a mass marketing attempt just because I left this post? Maybe were the ones being shot in the back on this one?

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:11 am 61. wayne:

A drug smuggler is no threat running away?

How about all of the people whose lives are one step closer to destruction because of the poison these vile animals are importing?

How about all of the people in Mexico who are being butchered as a part of this drug war – that has already breached our borders and that will likely threaten if not finally bring down the Mexican government and may even be used by Islamists (likely Iranian/Hezbollah helped by Hugo Chavez) to attack us again.

Drug peddlers are no different than Al Qaeda. You catch them, you kill them, and then someone should pin a medal on you for it.

If our leaders were truly Americans instead of the traitors most of them really are they’d offer a nice bounty for the heads (only) of each drug smuggler killed.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:14 am 62. Emerson:

And I care about the rights of drug dealers because………

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:14 am 63. zeezil:

RAMOS AND COMPEAN IMPROPERLY PROSECUTED

By Michael Cutler
January 21, 2009
http://www.newswithviews.com/Cutler/michael146.htm

Earlier today one of my sons excitedly told me to turn on the news on the television because he had heard that former Border Patrol Agents Ramos and Compean were going to be released. I hurriedly turned on my television and watched with great relief and joy that indeed, those two valiant federal agents who had been, in my judgment, improperly prosecuted and imprisoned were going to be released nearly ten years earlier than their original sentences would have required.

I have written many commentaries about this case and had the opportunity to address this miscarriage of justice on a number of radio and television programs and when I have spoken at various events that focused on the issue of immigration.

The fact that these valiant law enforcement officers were arrested and prosecuted as they were, in my judgment, may well have contributed to the reduction in the arrest of illegal aliens by the Border Patrol. I am of the belief that many agents were intimidated by the actions of the prosecutor in this case, Johnny Sutton and feared that by attempting to carry out their sworn duties, these agents not only ran the risk of being seriously injured by the ever more violent alien and drug smugglers operating in the lawless border regions of the United States, but that they also ran a serious risk of getting hammered by their own government!

The administration was quick to use the reduction in arrest statistics as supposed “proof” that the borders had been coming under the control of our agents. One could take the cynical perspective that perhaps this is why Ramos and Compean were, in fact, prosecuted; to artificially lower arrest statistics to support the claim that human tidal wave of illegal aliens had been effectively addressed.

If, indeed, this was the reason that those agents were arrested and prosecuted as they were, then there are other government officials who were far more deserving of getting “free room and board” in a federal prison than were those men!

Nevertheless, the fact remains that in just a few weeks Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean will be going home to their families who had to endure an atrocious situation. President Bush, in his remaining hours as the Commander-in-Chief of not only the military, but our federal law enforcement agencies, acted properly, if belatedly, in commuting their sentences.

I believe that many people can justifiably take credit for President Bush’s decision. Journalists such as Jerry Seper of the Washington Times along with many of his colleagues in the print media who wrote numerous articles about this miscarriage of justice helped to apply pressure to the administration and alerted the citizens of our nation about this case. A number of broadcast journalists including the late George Putnam and many others along with radio talk show host Chuck Wilder who succeeded George on his show when George passed away last year, talked often and passionately about this in addition to a long list of other talk show radio hosts. Among the television journalists who openly discussed this case was, obviously, Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck.

Obviously there are many other journalists who helped to get the “word” out but I do not want to attempt to list them all because no matter how many I name, I will undoubtedly leave others out.

All of the journalists and talk show hosts who devote themselves to raising the critical issues live up to the requirements of the First Amendment, to help to create an informed and educated electorate. At the end of the day, had many thousands of our fellow citizens had not made the phone calls and sent the telegrams to their elected representatives and to the White House, I believe that President Bush would not have commuted the sentences of former Border Patrol Agents Ramos and Compean.

The willingness of members of Congress, from both parties, should be commended for laying down their partisan agendas and speaking out on behalf of those agents.

This matter should serve as an inspiration to We the People that we can make a difference because in this instance, we did make a difference!

There are those politicians who hate talk radio! They would rather treat the citizens of our nation like mushrooms (keep us in the dark and feed us a lot of manure!)

Talk radio is vital to the concepts in the First Amendment! You may not like what a particular host has to say. You have the right and the freedom to turn the channel. We should never permit our government to turn the channel for us! As I am sure you know, the First Amendment deals with freedom of speech, freedom of the press and the right to assemble peaceably. Talk shows and the Internet provide us, in this era, with a meeting place for all Americans and this is absolutely essential for the survival of our democracy!

It is absolutely vital that We the People see in the case of Ramos and Compean proof that We the People can make a huge difference if we are willing to make the effort!

Earlier today justice prevailed!

We the People played a major role. But the work has only just begun!

There are members of Congress who are, even as you read this commentary, preparing to attempt, once again, to jam “Comprehensive Immigration Reform” (CIR) down the throat of the American people. They know that the great majority of the citizens of our nation are adamantly opposed to this betrayal of the will of the people, but they are once again gearing up.

We the People must also be gearing up. Just as We the People made the difference today, we must make the difference in the weeks and months ahead!

We the People must muster our forces and our efforts to get our voices heard!

The incoming administration is promising us “Change!”

We the People must also promise a different sort of “Change:” we must make it abundantly clear that we will never again seek the easy way out and passively allow the government that is supposed to be representative of the citizens of our nation, to run roughshod over us!

Our nation must have secure borders. Our nation must create an immigration system that has meaningful integrity. The rampant fraud that has plagued our immigration system represents a significant threat to national security and makes an absolute mockery of those honest and decent immigrants who followed not only the letter of the law but the spirit of the law, as well.

That fraud must be dealt with effectively to protect our nation’s security and to send a clear message that our nation is still a nation of laws. The immigration laws are the first laws most aliens encounter when they enter or seek to enter our country. It has been said that you only get one opportunity to make a first impression- those laws and the ways in which they are enforced and administered often serve to provide that first impression.

We the People can make it clear to those who claim to represent us; that we will accept no compromise on these critical issues that are neither Democrat issues nor Republican issues but are simply AMERICAN issues!

You are either part of the solution or you are a part of the problem!

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:19 am 64. Crush Liberalism:

The sentences were commuted, not pardoned. The prosecuting attorney even conceded that their sentences were too harsh for their crimes. In other words, Bush agreed with the prosecution.

So tell me, in light of this, HOW Bush messed up?

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:23 am 65. AnninCA:

The issues to me was overcharging them on the weapons charge, which resulted in an automatic sentence.

Bush did the right thing to commute the sentence.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:24 am 66. zeezil:

Glenn Beck: Ramos & Compean – The Whole Story
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/196/13098/

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:24 am 67. Jarhead68:

IF your version of the story is true, then perhaps they do deserve some form of punishment but their sentences were way too much for the ‘crime’. Who witnessed the alleged attempted butt stroke? Is there video? Or are you just taking the word of the innocent drug-runner? Seems to me that this was a railroad job and another case of prosecutorial misconduct. Texas is famous for that…remember Tom Delay? To my knowledge, he STILL hasn’t had his day in court. The democRATs conspired to remove him from the House because he was kicking their pansy butts all over the place. This is what socialists do…destroy reputations but never, EVER have a real debate.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:26 am 68. John Bibb:

This case seems very strange to me. A jury believed the drug smuggler’s testimony over the Border Patrol agent’s testimony.
***
The story I heard was that the drug dealer ran back over the border after the “butt” shot. Was he really down and disabled?
***
The Border Patrol agents screwed up in picking up the brass cartridge cases and not promptly filing a true report. This is probably what got them convicted.
***
Prosecutor Sutton’s actions sound similar to Nifong’s Duke Rape case. Some question on whether the judge admitted or excluded evidence properly.
***
Twelve and thirteen year sentences seem extreme for this incident. President Bush must have felt this way–proper punishment for the crime was a couple of years. No 12 or 13 years–and no clean slate. It seems like a fair decision to me.
***
Rocketman

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:31 am 69. Conservation Carmen:

only a moonbat would side with an illegal drug smuggler over two American citizens. sorry, but if you get caught with 700+lbs of any illegal drugs coming into the USA, being shot in the buttocks should be lesson number one mandatory. lesson number two should be life in prison with 2lbs of said drugs shoved up your backside for the duration.

stoooooopid moonbats, always a victim (poor me!!) or on the side of any country but their own.

GOD BLESS BUSH FOR THE COMMUTATIONS – AWESOME, PATRIOTIC, PERFECT.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:33 am 70. zeezil:

For incomprehensible reasons, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in El Paso decided to pursue criminal charges against agents Ramos and Compean instead of against the real criminal, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, a Mexican drug runner. He resisted arrest, assaulted an officer and left behind 743 pounds of marijuana as he absconded back to Mexico.

According to the prosecutor, Johnny Sutton, Mr. Davila was the “victim” and deserved to be treated as such. He was subsequently rewarded with full immunity for his crimes, free health care and unconditional border-crossing cards permitting him to come and go across the border as often as he liked, without escort. Unbeknownst to the jury, Davila was involved in another drug-smuggling incident after his encounter with the Border Control agents and several months before the trial. The prosecution, however, was well aware of his illicit activities and asked the trial judge to keep this information from the jury because it was not “relevant.” The judge granted their request because, after all, the illegal alien drug smuggler was the “victim.”

This whole trial was a sham orchestrated by high levels in the Bush administration who, I’m sure were pandering to Mexico. It is without question that Mexico and Mexican consulates were meddling in the prosecution. And don’t for a minute think that the Mexican drug runner was unarmed during his confrontation with Ramos and Compeon. These criminal perps never go anywhere without a weapon(s). He was a running drugs for a major Mexican drug cartel.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:36 am 71. zeezil:

Border Patrol Agents Railroaded For Open Borders
http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon155.htm

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:39 am 72. Mike B:

What a load of crap. The prosecutor is, Johnny Sutton, is the one who should be in jail for letting this creep make multiple drug runs over the border while under immunity granted at his request.

Think about what you present as a cover up, picking up the spent cartridges? Ask yourself this, if they were really trying to cover something up, why wouldn’t they have just killed this scumbag? There were no witnesses on the scene, that would have prevented any testimony from the dealer and covered it up completely. Also, as far as not filing a report, their direct supervisor reviewed the scene with them minutes after the shooting. This is a technicality.

This case was designed to send a message to the border agents to back off on enforcement. I’ve also read that there is a Bush-Sutton connection of some sort from his Governor days. My guess is that Bush commuted their sentences only due to the fact that he wanted to move back to Texas and knew that most Texans were pissed about this.

You’ve been called enough names so I’ll abstain from adding any further to the heap, but you should check your facts – these men should’ve been pardoned.

Mike B.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:41 am 73. Paul - Indiana:

Drug smugglers and dealers should be executed on the spot.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:42 am 74. cedarford:

AnninCA:

The issues to me was overcharging them on the weapons charge, which resulted in an automatic sentence.

Bush did the right thing to commute the sentence.

Agree completely. I’m no cop-worshipper, and give short shrift to those who think “heroes” should have immunity even when they plant evidence, shoot somebody in a situation they think a subsequent use of deadly force investigation will punish them and lie to superiors and cover up the act.

But what the US Attorney did was as harmful to the people as what Compean and Ramos did. Instead of firing them and getting them to cop to a big fine or 6-12 months on reckless endangerment, he decided to make an example out of them. That required him to give the drug smuggler immunity, and charge the cops with an eggregious law intended for felons that preplan to use a gun in a felony – not armed officers firing – perhaps with really bad judgment, in the heat of the moment.

The Commutation should be best understood as what most thought was the big problem – classic abuse of prosecutorial powers by Johnny Sutton (in the tradition of Mike Nifong, Spitzer, Fitzgerald) to make a political name for himself.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:42 am 75. Jaibones:

GFY, Bob.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:43 am 76. Don Rhudy:

Bob, you haven’t fully informed yourself of the facts of that case, and how the agents were railroaded by a self-serving U. S. Attorney and his assistant. Setting all that aside, I think those agents should have killed the S.O.B. and left him to rot in the desert, and have received a commendation for doing it.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:43 am 77. JR:

I’m seeing the final scene from the movie “Easy Rider”. The hick in the truck didn’t miss Hoffman and then they drove back for Fonda. No one left to tell. Roll credits.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:46 am 78. john:

Your sympathy towards the illegal alien criminal is astounding. You eliminate (purposefully, I would imagine), so many facts and insinuate others, this article is a farce.

To say that the two agents ‘left him bleeding from his wound’ and didn’t arrest him, neglects the fact that at that point, the suspect was in Mexico – across the border. He was picked up by another vehicle and drove off – in another country. What would you have the agents do – illegally cross the border in pursuit, detain, arrest, and kidnap him back to the US?

That would be a totally different article I’m sure. Your lack of truthfullness and either lack of research or complete disregard for honesty makes you a poor example of a journalist.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:48 am 79. goy:

Any BP agent who shoots a lowlife, drug-dealing, illegal alien smuggler in the ass deserves a medal, not a 10+ year prison sentence.

These guys did more time than was warranted by their only real crime, which was anything but “attempted murder” (talk about ridiculous hyperbole!). They had the extreme misfortune to be involved in an incident that could be so easily sensationalized for political gain by others.

Good call to commute their sentences, but would have been better to pardon them.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:56 am 80. Michael J. Lewis:

Thank you for making clear the facts the jury heard instead of the overtrumped noise from law enforcement and politicians about wrongly convicted agents of the US government. They got what they deserved…and now less because of our short-sighted and now former President Bush. I lived on the border for years and I know the problem up close.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:56 am 81. Melu:

Shot the drug dealer in the back?
y gosh, what bad shots they are. I would have shot him in the head!!!

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:59 am 82. dwnsth:

Bob, I rarely have issues with your reporting but when I do they usually provide a strong reaction. This article and your opinion on Katrina prove that you do not always know the topic you are discussing. At any rate, I will continue to read your post and CY because of the good effort in keeping the AP and others truthful, but sometimes I’m not so sure you should be writing opinion pieces.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:08 am 83. Pat Patterson:

It doesn’t really appear that too many hear have actually read either Sutton’s reponse to the many charges made against him or to have even read a narrative of the whole mess. Links below;

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/Setting%20the%20Record%20Straight%204-25%202007.pdf

The first is Sutton’s reponse to the many rumors that have animated so many people. While Paula Colloff wrote in Texas Monthly two years ago a narrative of both the shooting and the trial.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/preview/2007-09-01/feature2

I originally was much more sympathetic toward the two agents but started to become curious when it was revealed that it was a fellow agent who reported the shooting to Washington(He feared that the local supervisors were involved in the coverup) and that the principal witness against the two was the third agent at the scence who was pressured by Ramos and Compean to change his report and lie on the stand. But the heartlessness of Ramos sealed the deal when he said, “If anything, Compean and I should have gotten an administrative punishment–if that. As for Aldrete-Davila, you know what? He got what he deserved.”

Conservatives usually try to limit the power of the government but from some of the comments above that seems to not apply to law enforcement agents who violate shooting policy, leave a wounded man alone and then lie about everything up to and including every word in the dictionary.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:09 am 84. Hayek:

Bob Owens takes the testimony of the drug dealer over the Border Agents. The same drug dealer, who when given immunity, kept running drugs and then sued the US for $5 million dollars. Why wouldn’t he believe two border agents who both had distinguished records? Maybe because Bob does not like authority or he’s just gullible. No wonder Obama is president.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:09 am 85. Tom:

If a drug smuggler is caught in the act, they should be shot on site….

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:09 am 86. Edward Keithly:

GDT

Me and most of America are worried about the law and would just like to keep the smelly drug dealers out. ,/i>

You don’t give a damn about the law. When cops break the law, then there ceases to be any law, and all that remains is a desperate struggle for survival. If you were concerned with the law, you’d be calling for them to rot in jail, right alongside the drug dealers.

But, no. Just like those who worship at the altar of government, you’d piss on the law to protect your policy preferences. An attitude worthy only of the liberal left.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:25 am 87. Jackie:

aw the poor drug dealer who violated his immunity by bringing another load of drugs over. i hope the bullet is still in the guy’s ass. This article is another vile indication that people do not support the law enforcement that put their lives on the line for us every day. We are now dealing with the spillover of the violence across the border with drug dealers cutting off heads and shooting government officials that may try to stop the violence on their land and we have to worry about our own officials putting our law enforcement in jail. 10-12 years? This disgusts me. They should be out NOW not in march.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:28 am 88. martini-henry:

MR OWEN,
First, I am shocked that PJs would even allow such a piece of sh*t to be placed on their site. HELL, those boys ought to get a medal and be reinstated for their acts. It is obvious you have NEVER been in situation like those patrolman found themselves in..I have (as a former cop and a 25 year military vet) and it is a shame that they didn’t finish the job and dump the body. Your priorities are completely F’d up..GO TO MOVE’ON where you belong.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:34 am 89. wayne:

Actually I heard a great suggestion the other day for what should be done with anyone caught smuggling drugs: treat them the same way most parents do with their kids when they catch them smoking, i.e. making them smoke the whole pack of cigarettes in one sitting.

Ramos and Campean should have made Davila sit there and smoke the entire 700+ pounds of pot in one sitting. Same for every other drug dealer that gets caught. Lets seem how many of them survive the overdoses!!!

It would be fun to watch some dirtbag dealer/smuggler have to sniff kilos of cocaine, smoke several hundred rocks of crack, snort or shoot a dozen or so bags of heroine, swallow a couple hundred Xanax/ecstacy/oxycontins, etc.

Trust me … having seen overdoses up close before …. getting shot in the head would be a blessing!!!

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:35 am 90. Tried of it All:

To bad Compean & Ramos didn’t kill the scum bag. This is one of the reasons why our states have to pass Castle Doctrines so homeowners can protect themselfs against jail time or lawsuites for shooting or killing intruders. The only thing they did wrong was poor marksmenship. They should have dropped him with one shot, but practice makes perfect.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:41 am 91. GT:

Bob, you’re exactly right. It seems the Dallas Morning News agrees with you.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/editorials/stories/DN-commutations_21edi.State.Edition1.2d28500.html

So do I.

I’ve read Ramos and Compean’s testimony. They admit to the cover-up and gave a reason why. (Just read vol. 14 of the trial transcripts for starters)

They were law officers sworn to uphold the law, not just the laws they agreed with. If they can’t abide by the rules and regulations like every other officer, then they need to go work somewhere else.

I must say that I’m very disappointed in the so-called “conservatives” who insist on making folk heroes out of these two. We are suppose to be a nation of laws and what they are advocating is anarchy. Its no wonder the Right is in such a chaotic mess right now.

.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:43 am 92. Rubicon:

The bullet, entered the side of the drug smugglers butt, NOT the back of it. The drug smuggler was turned toward the officers at the time. The Agents saw his move after knocking down Compean, as an aggressive act. Add to this the appearance of something in the drug smugglers hand at that moment. The drug smuggler did NOT lay on the ground bleeding. If he did, the Agents would have walked up to him & taken him into custody. He ran away across the border to a waiting car they sped off into Mexico in the dark. There was no laying on the ground bleeding. The “duct tape” bandage was necessitated by the drug smugglers fear he would be arrested by Mexican authorities & extradited back to America to stand trial. Other members of the drug smugglers family, also in the Border Patrol, but in Arizona, were then contacted. “They” made a stink & got their supervisor to register the complaint with the Agents supervisor. The story “they” told, made the Texas Agents out to be criminals. “They” then briefed their Mexican drug smuggler cousin, and made sure his story matched the one his Arizona Border Patrol Agent family members had told.
The Agents supervisor was doing nothing about the case, because he was “on the scene” just after the shootings, and he knew it was just another confrontation with an illegal alien drug smuggler. He knew of the shootings & he knew the Agents were picking up casings. The casings were not in good enough condition to be reloaded, so they were discarded. Actions against the Agents were not taken until days later, after the prosecutor had been briefed by the Arizona Border Patrol Agents drug smuggler family members had made sure the prosecutor heard “their” story first. Unfortunately, the prosecutor was convinced by them since…. “they had no reason to lie & exaggerate about their family member, did they????”
Sorry, but there are myriad details about the incident that have not been revealed & many of the details were not released at trial because the judge bought the prosecutors stories such details were irrelevant. Jurors all said had they know some of the details they would never have convicted the Agents.
There is significantly more to this than has been told.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:49 am 93. Pat Patterson:

Hayek-Why shouldn’t Mr. Owens and the jury believe the smuggler over the two agents considering how often they had lied about the whole event. When polled in the courthouse all the jurors agreed with the verdict and claimed they had no doubts as to the agents guilt. Ramos had two domestic violence reports on his file, court mandated anger-management classes, and a suspension for lying about the battering his wife received from him. Compean had a fairly undistinguished record with no real blots in his file.

All of this indignation skips over the fact that the two agents had four defense attorneys representing them in the two week trial and they were not able to even raise a doubt in the jurors minds. Nor were the lawyers able to convince the judges that heard the appeals of anything other that the verdict was arrived at truly and there were absolutely no procedural or legal grounds to overturn the case.

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:49 am 94. righty:

Yep, it’s you bleeding heart liberals who have ruined our country and you dope-smoking hippies are mad that your connection may have been taken out. Excuse me while I go puke!

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:58 am 95. RV:

Just so I understand this correctly, this being a conservative website and all, some people here are fine with giving government officials the power to shoot unidentified fleeing suspects in the back. Does “conservatism” no longer mean less government power over our lives?

Jan 21, 2009 - 9:58 am 96. jimmy:

You got your “facts” wrong. Their boss and several other were on the scene almost immediately and all knew that shots were fired. They were not required to make a written report – They didn’t leave him “bleeding in the dirt” – he continued running and jumped into a waiting car on the other side of the border. The prosecution gave the dope runner immunity and a pass to cross freely over the border and covered up his arrest for drug smuggling that occurred BEFORE he testified in the trial. He portrayed himself as an innocent waif who drove a van to get money to pay for his mother’s operation, but was a long term drug smuggler whose own mother said always carried a gun when running drugs. If you think that we shouldn’t protect our borders and drugs should be legalized, JUST SAY SO. There is no need to make up stuff to demonize two fine border agents.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:02 am 97. Pat J:

Those border cops acted as if they were above the law. Wrong decision to commute a sentance to two men who shot another man in the back.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:05 am 98. strych909:

You need to look at the bigger picture. We are being invaded by illegals who have no intention of contributing to our society. Does jailing our border guards and allowing foreign drug dealers to sue our government discourage illegal border crossings, or does it provide another incentive whereas any illegal can claim police misconduct and sue? Backing up agents who do their job is a better deterrent. Just out of curiosity, does the author have any law-enforcement experience?

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:14 am 99. Lily:

Even the prosectutor said the sentances were too harsh.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:18 am 100. Rick007:

HMMM Shame they didn’t have better aim.

Heil “O” Dumbo! Heil “O” Dumbo!

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:23 am 101. JD:

The only mistake these two Border Patrol agents made was not killing that drug smuggler SOB!!

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:26 am 102. nat turner:

The agents broke rule one for cops . Shoot to kill . Shoot until you know they are dead . Reload shoot some more .

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:28 am 103. Will:

Bob,I believe your judgment is so far left,you don’t know right from wrong. Have any idea what that scum dope dealer is doing now and will continue to do since he is free?

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:29 am 104. Herschel Smith:

Except that you miss a very fundamental point. For me it was never about these two particular men and what they did or didn’t do. It has always been about a bad schema for protection of the border.

I oppose – have always, do now, and will in the future – the application of Tennessee v. Garner to border guards (as much as I oppose it as applied to Soldiers and Marines in their ROE and RUF).

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/07/02/danger-at-the-border/

The conditions we face, i.e., corrupt corporations hiring people they shouldn’t, bad SCOTUS decisions, the application of bad SCOTUS decisions to wrong venues, the narco-state in the making in the country to our South, the corruption in Mexican police, have literally led to a counterinsurgency operation on our Southern border.

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2008/12/11/counterinsurgency-on-the-southern-us-border/

We are no longer policing the border. We are battling insurgents. If you don’t see it that way then you need a complete recalibration of your thinking. And if it takes recalcitrant juries to ignore unconscionable laws in order to call out injustices, then so be it. If I had been on the jury those men would never have been convicted to begin with and you would have nothing about which to write.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:31 am 105. Brian:

This article missed so many facts about the case! The fact is the prosecution was mishandled and the punishments far outweighed any wrong doing by the officers.
The writter is monday morning quarterbacking from the comfort of his office. Maybe he missed the fact that drug dealers are cutting off police officers heads along the border.
Perhaps he should put himself in that situation alone along the border with limited support and historically well armed drug trafficers.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:31 am 106. ILikeIke:

GT has this right:

“I must say that I’m very disappointed in the so-called “conservatives” who insist on making folk heroes out of these two. We are suppose to be a nation of laws and what they are advocating is anarchy. Its no wonder the Right is in such a chaotic mess right now.”

Add some good ole “Ends justifies the means” type thinking, and you can see why people think these cops got a raw deal.

To answer RV’s question: “Does “conservatism” no longer mean less government power over our lives?”

No, “conservatism” these days means that the ends justifies the means, seemingly across the board. No bailouts…even if failing banks take down our whole economy with them. If torture saves lives…I’m okay with it. Start a war based on lies? Oh well, Saddam Hussein was a bad guy anyway. Some corrupt cops shoot a guy? Well he was an illegal immigrant drug dealer! So what?

The ends justify the means. The ends always justify the means.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:44 am 107. RetLE:

No one claims them to be heroes. The case should have been handled administratively, not criminally with a bogus gun charge requiring a ten year mandatory minimum sentence.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:55 am 108. Vatar:

@96 [i]They were not required to make a written report[/i]

Odd. Compean seems to disagree with you.

6 Q. Now, let me show you Government’s Exhibit 75. Do you
7 recognize that? Is this part of your firearms policy manual?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And I’m referring you to page 21 of 64, Number 2 on that
10 page. Doesn’t it tell you that you’re required to report a
11 shooting within one hour?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And you knew that it was your responsibility, correct?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And you didn’t do that, did you?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. And, in fact, 29 days passed before anyone knew that you
18 had shot. Is that true, sir?
19 A. Yes, sir.
**************
25 Q. And you did not tell — you had two supervisors there at

1 the scene, right?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And you didn’t tell either of them, according to the
4 policy, that you discharged your firearm?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And neither did Mr. Compean?
7 A. No.
8 Q. If you had, one of these thick reports would have been
9 generated, right?
10 A. I guess so.
****************
3 Q. Okay. This is what the firearms policy calls a reportable
4 shooting, correct?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Well, you taught it for five years. If you don’t remember,
7 I can give you the policy to refresh your memory.
8 A. Yes, ma’am.
9 Q. It is a reportable shooting?
10 A. Yes, ma’am.
11 Q. And when there’s a reportable shooting, the first thing
12 you’re supposed to do is secure the scene, correct?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. You didn’t secure the scene?
15 A. No.
****************
As …As I stated to … umm … to this earlier … I didn’t … I just … I know it was wrong for us not to reported it and I … if I would have thought that he had been hit or anything like that had happened I would have … I didn’t … I just … I knew we were going to get in trouble because the way … the way it’s been at the station the last two … three years … uhh … I mean everything always comes down to the alien. The agents are as soon as anything comes up … it is always … always the agent’s fault. The agents have always been cleared but, with management, it’s always been the agent’s fault. We’re the ones that get in trouble.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:03 am 109. Fred:

See bad guy, shoot bad guy. Simple. They should not have to even worry about whether they will be prosecuted for shooting a drug dealer. Their biggest mistake was not being in better control of their weapons. Get these guys out to the range.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:27 am 110. Matt:

Illegals have no constitutional rights (and when I say that, I mean actual rights given under the Constitution, not rights “given” by liberal legislatures and activist judges).

Were they wrong to mislead their superiors? Most definately and they should pay the price for that. However, the bleeding hearts have made a shooting on the border so problematic that these men feel they have to cover up the shooting of an illegal alien drug dealer. Therein lies the bigger problem.

Fortunately, Obama will soon heal Mexico and the illegal problem will be taken care of.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:28 am 111. Colin:

The drug runner was absolutely a scumbag. At least one of the cops, perhaps both were as well. Those who are defending, or outright glorifying their actions as part of some ‘greater good’ are downright scary. Uphold the law instead of crushing it beneath your boot heel and telling me I should like it.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:31 am 112. Chris:

His sentence was commuted. He wasn’t pardoned…if you don’t know the difference, then don’t say a word

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:34 am 113. AnninCA:

Surely, nobody wants unfettered rights of the police to lie about shootings.

That’s an absurd position to adopt.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:35 am 114. ILikeIke:

Fred says, “See bad guy, shoot bad guy. Simple.”

Simple…but wrong. This is how it should work. See bad guy, arrest bad guy, prosecute bad guy, convict bad guy, incarcerate bad guy.

Law and order. It used to be the cool thing to do. Now? Not so much…

Besides, Fred, you do understand that under your over-simplified “see bad guy, shoot bad guy” rule, Ramos and Compean would not be alive to have their sentences commuted. They would be dead! (Shot in the back, probably.)

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:41 am 115. souplinesteve:

JR wrote:
I’m seeing the final scene from the movie “Easy Rider”. The hick in the truck didn’t miss Hoffman and then they drove back for Fonda. No one left to tell. Roll credits.

No offense, but Hoffman wasn’t in that flick… Dennis Hopper is who you’re thinking of!

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:45 am 116. John:

Bob,

I imagine it would be OK with you if illegal immigrant dope dealers walked into your home whenever they felt like it and conducted their business — they probably do. Do you realize we have a “sovereign” border?
Where did you get your “version” of the story. I didn’t even hear Sutton give your version. It’s too bad the agents didn’t spend more time training with their firearm.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:46 am 117. don:

Assuming the facts of the case are as stated, I gather that is why the sentences were commuted rather than pardoned, as with Clinton’s pardon idyls of Mark Rich and assorted terrorists to better get out the minority vote and raise money for his presidential library. But hey, democrats are always right; they have history on their side. I can’t wait to see some of Obama’s up coming pardons: the Gitmo three hundred, Mumia, all those crack cocaine dealers doing more time than those white boys snorting coke. Since we’re all equal before the law now, I can’t wait to see females finally required to register for the draft too. Perhaps Title Nine could be extended to infantry units to equalize the killing and dying in ranks between the sexes? You think? Just think of it as the historical culmination of the French Revolution and the equality of the guiliotine, but on a higher post industrial New Age level. It’s good to correct mistakes.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:58 am 118. zeezil:

Ramos and Compeon article compilation on Digger’s Realm blog:
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/cat_agents_ramos_and_compean.html

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:13 pm 119. ILikeIke:

When Matt writes stuff like this:

“Illegals have no constitutional rights (and when I say that, I mean actual rights given under the Constitution, not rights “given” by liberal legislatures and activist judges).”

It makes me wonder if he truly understands what “rights” are. Hate to break it to you, Matt, but even illegal immigrants have rights. All men have rights, regardless of ethnicity, political affiliation, or country of origin. Ever hear of natural rights?

It’s the foundation of our Republic.

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:13 pm 120. zeezil:

What happened to the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on International Organizations, Human Rights and Oversight that was putting together a hearing on just how much influence the Mexican government had in the prosecution and conviction of Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean? Why has this either not happened or its findings not disclosed? Oh, I get it…U.S. government coverup of the Mexican government meddling. There you have it folks, complicity in protection of the Mexican drug trade and in the invasion into the U.S. by illegal aliens.

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:19 pm 121. zeezil:

In response to you, Ike…illegal aliens have no “civil rights”. Civil rights only apply to citizens, which illegal aliens obviously are not. Illegal aliens, however, have basic human rights, which any civilized country extends, although the U.S. goes way beyond basic human rights in our treatment of illegals. That being said, that illegal aliens have human rights…I agree. They have the human right to receive a “humane” ride home back to their country of origin.

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:34 pm 122. Vatar:

@119 I agree. Some rights are “self evident.” I think those are extended even to illegal immigrants.

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:37 pm 123. Marc Malone:

The real problem is the defining of these guys as cops. They should be categorized as soldiers defending our border against invading hordes… or, at least, something in between. You don’t prosecute a soldier for firing at an invader. If the guy refuses to surrender, he is an active combatant and you kill him.

The reason Clinton never accepted Bin Laden when he was offered is that they didn’t know what crimes with which to charge him. The problem was, that they were thinking in terms of criminal proceedings instead of war process. So, we got 9/11.

Same problem in GTMO. We need another category for terrorists. They’re not legitimate soldiers. Technically, they are spies and saboteurs and can be shot out of hand. The people crossing our border need their own category and so do the Border Patrol agents. No other country in the world considers their border guards to be cops.

If our politicians knew what the heck they were doing, then this incident would never have happened. Do these guys get into a scuffle if the bad guy knows that he is considered an enemy infiltrator and will be shot immediately if he resists? No. He surrenders or dies.

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:46 pm 124. ReConUSMC:

Based on what happened to these two men guarding our Borders with their lives on the line since there have been more people murdered within 75 Miles of our Borders than have been killed in Iraq in the last 5 years .
The Drug gangs have more power than does the Military in Mexico much less the crime ridden Border Police there .
Why would anyone want to serve there now especially with a Socialist President and a Socialist Congress….not Mexico here .
PC Correct Border Guard is about alike a Marine being caught in and AL Quada ambush Holowering Three times to Freeze before he can open fire !

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:46 pm 125. Pabloesq:

To all of you advocating the “shoot first, cover up later” policy, pray that you don’t some day encounter a law enforcement official who shares your extreme views. You may not live to continue mistaking the law for your right wing ideology. The officers were convicted based not only on the evidence presented by the drug dealer but also on evidence presented by a fellow officer and the defendants themselves. The officer admits in his testimony to concealing the shooting from his superior immediately following the incident. The fellow officer testified that the defendants attempted to influence his testimony and thus suborned perjury. The defendants were also found to have committed perjury in both their police reports and testimony. The consistent flaw in your reasoning is that an officer may somehow use after-acquired evidence to justify using deadly force. When the dealer was apprehended the police only had reasonable suspicion that he was carrying drugs – the drugs were not discovered until after the shooting. Likewise for the evidence many of you feel should have been introduced regarding the dealer’s subsequent illegal activity – it is simply not relevant to the issue of the officer’s state of mind and intent at the time of the shooting. Lastly, an officer may only shoot a fleeing suspected felon if they have a reasonable belief that their safety or that of the public was at risk. The officer’s testimony regarding the “object” they spotted on the dealer an suspected was a gun was rebutted by the defendant’s inconsistent testimony and the testimony of the fellow officer/witness. The police have no more legal right than you or I to shoot a person (regardless of their citizenship) and then commit perjury to cover up the incident. If the police are not held to such a basic legal standard then none of us are safe.

Jan 21, 2009 - 12:59 pm 126. Larsen E Whipsnade:

3. Chris: “…pardoning a man who shot someone in the back.”

Let’s keep this straight: for one thing, he wasn’t shot in the back – he was shot in the ass. If it was a straight-on direct shot, he’d be paralyzed for life. What were they shooting with – BB guns?

Jan 21, 2009 - 1:33 pm 127. Will Sharpe:

Wow, looks like you’re prodding the angry right here, Bob. Lots of hate spewing out of these comments.

Jan 21, 2009 - 1:40 pm 128. lee:

Ike

It’s often big government (and their statist allies, often liberal but also republican) who strangles us with “ends justify the means” laws and regulation. How much government intrusion can we afford in the name of racial equality, public health, and welfare for the poor? If you spend a minute in a big left leaning state, you have to deal with overzealous officials who try to block businesses that sell high calorie food or raise minimum wage to 12.50 on all businesses. They don’t care about the cost to us.

Americans are opposed the bailout (you’re fooling yourself if you think most reasonable liberals actually support this) because the government is attempting to fix a problem they helped create with OUR money. Thusly, we oppose it, for the sake of accountability. And surprise! Already the government is losing track of where the money is going, and some banks can’t (or won’t) show the money they apparently received. The government can “end” the financial crisis by using a lot of taxpayer money, and that is their “justification”. Whoop de doo.

If I wanted a government that made us (even indirectly) pay for the mistakes of giant conglomerates, I would have stayed in Korea.

Jan 21, 2009 - 1:47 pm 129. ILikeIke:

Zeezil, who wrote: “illegal aliens have no “civil rights””

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

While it’s true that illegal aliens don’t have citizenship rights, ie, the right to vote or hold political office, they still have all the civil rights and constitutional protections that anyone else has.

Among them is the right to due process.

Which doesn’t include getting shot in the back by a couple corrupt cops.

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:07 pm 130. Econ_Scott:

Wow Bob:

You really put your foot in it. Didn’t you.

Guess you liked Davila’s version best. I trust you read the whole court transcript, and followed the proceedings in depth.

I’ve seen remarkably crappy juries come to all kinds of conclusions. And Fed. Prosecutor’s have about a 98% conviction rate … that’s some kind of power. In this case he didn’t indict a ham sandwich, he indicted two long serving officers not known for shooting perps in the back. Did they pick up shell casings ? When I was hunting doves down there the Game Warden said she’d arrest us if we didn’t pick up our shell casings. But maybe they were just trying to cover up attempted murder after all eh ?

Johnny Sutton — not the first person you’d want at your cocktail party or one you’d want at show at all.

2 plus years inside Federal Penn starting with getting the crap kicked out of them for being a cop on the inside then solitary confinement for two plus years just to keep them alive …

With guys like you as neighbors … who’d ever want to be a police officer ?

These two are marked, and as such they’ll never own a firearm again, they’ll never own a house. Their families will not likely recover financially.

When I first moved to Texas in 1981, laws on the books, legalities for adultery in the act were you could shoot them both, and it was justifiable, Horse stealing still required Hanging.

That’s all changed now. And cops shooting at a fleeing drug smuggler, who would never lie, particularly to U.S. Federal Prosecutors while he was safely in Mexico beyond reach, deserve 12 years solitary confinement.

It really is a simple world.

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:20 pm 131. rollinson ford:

It should be mandatory BP policy that within 10,20 or ? miles of the border, anyone fleeing from a BP stop should be shot. It should further be BP policy that the only possible reprimand that could arise would be if the BP officer missed!
Kill all illegal border crossers!!!

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:35 pm 132. don:

Speaking from all over the political spectrum, I have a suggestion. Since there is no sense being an imperialistic pig without acting like one, let’s annex Mexico as the 51st state. Seriously. We only have to add two Senator’s seats to congress, and Californian and New York and a few others can give up some house seats for the new state of Mexico: Dennis the menace Kucinich comes to mind. Mexicans will enjoy all the rights of a living U.S. constitution, and the FBI and the recycled New Left will have a new civil rights mission in life, fighting for the new Mexican citizens right to abortions and affirmative action and a secret ballot. The heroic baby boomer won’t have to go south of the border for cheap nursing care. No longer will international democrats and republicans get to game the system to their economic advantage, exploiting the poor Mexican of indian heritage. They get real civil rights, we get oil. After all, Mexicans are mostly catholic, and the Mexican ruling class is mostly white and of spanish origin, so one can hardly sell it as a political exercise in multiculturalism when they all come from Spain; last I looked, Spain was a part of the European experience. Everyone loves Mexico, especially all those celebrity resort towns. It should be a political piece of cake, since the American voter isn’t required to ratify the annexation. Mexico’s southern border is much shorter and easier to guard; besides, the Mexican federals still shoot indians coming across their border illegally too. And the corrupt Mexican police? It would give American Progressives a century of jolly marching just to speak truth to power for reforming the Mexican state. Sitting on the beach drinking margarita’s after a hard day in the peace corp sure beats going to Dar Fur wearing a helmet and flak jacket. And forget about the green zone in Iraq. Free fire zone’s are a baby boomer’s nightmare; of course, the closest encounter most baby boomers had with a free fire zone was a hippie crash pad over run with gonorrhea.

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:36 pm 133. johnmorrissey:

remember their crime was not shooting them, which may have been appropriate, but failing to turn in the proper paperwork and attempting to conceal their actions.Had they filled in the appropriate paperwork on time and told a full complete story, there would have been no issue.Both of these were serious admin failures and should have been dealt with by administrative punishments. To appreciate the prosecuting atty, you needed to see him in action.The Inquisition or the Salem trials had nothing on this guy. If you think out of control cops are dangerous,you have never seen the far more dangerous prosecutor determined to make his career thru a high profile conviction.Sutton was out of control, and looked and sounded like a Stalinist prosecutor at a show trial”bring me the man, and I will find a crime”
I am happy for their release, but no mans liberty is safe while Sutton, Fitzgerald and their kind are still armed and dangerous.

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:42 pm 134. Leatherneck:

This is one part of a larger problem. Illegal alien health care, jail/trial costs, anchor baby sugar tit, and drug smuggling.

The Christian thing to do is secure the southern border, all illegal aliens caught transported back across the river on 5 tons, MRE’s, and water. Use deadly force if need be. Then allow the Border Patrol to travel American cities to round up the rest. Illegal aliens depress wages, and destroy culture.

The two Border guards Bush communted should go back to the range, and BZO their weapons. Very bad shooting.

Jan 21, 2009 - 2:53 pm 135. Will Sharpe:

Leatherneck:

“The Christian thing to do is… use deadly force if need be.”

Classic, Who Would Jesus Shoot?

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:00 pm 136. Vatar:

Would administrative punishments have been the proper punishment for Watergate? Where there is a coverup, there is a crime. Where there is smoke, there is a fire.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:32 pm 137. Greg:

Based on what I have read, these guys were guilty and their convictions were upheld after appeal. Some may think they were innocent of any crime, this is understandable. I am OK with the commutation because the sentence was probably too harsh. If this guys stay out of trouble for five years, they can apply for and hopefully get a pardon.

I finding it disturbing that they should not have been charged with a crime because they are law enforcement. Some think it OK to shoot a suspect and worry about guilt or innocence latter. If the drug smuggler was breaking into my home and I shot him while he was running away. I would be doing at least 10 years in jail because of mandatory minimums. The law must be applied equally to all

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:38 pm 138. Mike:

Is this secretly Lars Larson who wrote this crap? He’s the only “conservative” I know of who was against R/C, he even trashed Tom Tancredo on air for it! Of course it didn’t stop him from his dumbass “Jorge Arbusto” rants every couple minutes.

I started listening to him in 2006, I also STOPPED listening to him that year as well.

Jan 21, 2009 - 3:55 pm 139. LallyG:

He was fleeing, not trying to surrender! He deserved the shot in his butt!

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:13 pm 140. Joe Camel:

Simple cure to all of this. We do it in Korea now. Funny how a good mine field can slow down those who have nefarious means in their hearts.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:14 pm 141. zeezil:

Greg, #137…you need to read up on the prosecutor coverup, information that was withheld from the jury, the free border pass card the prosecutors gave to the perp who used it to run even more drugs after the incident, the riduculous notion that the perp wasn’t armed, the meddling the Mexican government did in the case, etc.

Ramos and Compeon article compilation on Digger’s Realm blog:
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/cat_agents_ramos_and_compean.html

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:34 pm 142. zeezil:

Amazing how f-ed up our nitwits are in government. We send soldiers to Korea, Iraq and Afghanastan to protect their borders instead of sending our military to our own borders. Then when two Border Patrol agents actually fight force with fire, they get thrown in jail.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:37 pm 143. zeezil:

Why aren’t Ramos and Compeon realeased NOW…pronto…instead of serving another 60 days.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:41 pm 144. zeezil:

Lou Dobbs just cited information that the Mexican government actively intervened to try to prevent the agent’s commutation and release.

Jan 21, 2009 - 4:43 pm 145. too late:

i am concerned about the case, and the propensity of law enforcement to lie. pray your heros do not turn on you one day, as you will see a very different side of the process that is modern day justice. cops lie every day, file false police reports, cover for each other, and these guys got caught and deserve everything they got. there must be a zero tolerance policy for this type of behaviour. the cops have simply too much power to allow this activity to continue. i have been on juries and found myself thinking how many times has this guy done this before he got caught. and i suspect the jury was thinking the same thing and decided to send a message. the cops are acting like barney fife on steroids, every one of them a sociopath with a bad attitude. even a traffic stop these days is an intensly frightening experience. to protect and serve? not any more.

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:06 pm 146. Leatherneck:

Will, deadly force is use to protect the lives of our Border agents. It is Ok. Christ understands some sumgglers will murder.

Do you understand?

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:07 pm 147. ILikeIke:

zeezil, “Why aren’t Ramos and Compeon realeased NOW…pronto…instead of serving another 60 days.”

Um….because they’re convicted felons?

Jan 21, 2009 - 5:14 pm 148. zeezil:

too late #145…congratulations…spoken like a true anarchist.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:37 pm 149. zeezil:

Ike #147…yeah, right…Ramos and Compeon are felons. Railroaded by Bush’s buddy Johnny Sutton who sealed exculpatory evidence in order to give more weight to the story of a Mexican cartel drug runner. I’ll bet you’re one of those guys who thought OJ was innocent, the first time.

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:45 pm 150. Shef Rogers:

Where’d all the libertarians go? A guy taking pot across a border is fighting against big government regulations, practicing pure entrepreneurial capitalism, facing tremendous risks–and all you so-called conservatives back the civil servants who shot him? You’ve forgotten your Ayn Rand completely!

Jan 21, 2009 - 6:47 pm 151. Ran:

“Compean policed up his brass — an incredibly incriminating act — and both officers filed false reports. Neither disclosed that they had discharged their weapons. Quite literally, they tried to get away with attempted murder.”

For starters, Campean policed his brass, yes – in the presence of his supervisors. Perhaps they though the brass had simply discharged itself?

Mr. Owens, you leave so many details of the incident and the trials out of your report that you effectively tell an untruth. Your report is worthy of Dan Rather. Don’t sweat it, though… One can see from the comments above that others have done your homework for you.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:36 pm 152. myth buster:

Jesus doesn’t use a gun- He uses a sword. Who would Jesus slice to ribbons? Evil men who rebel against God’s Kingdom and seek the annihilation of Israel.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:07 pm 153. Войска ПВО:

..the commutation is gratifying to hear about. But what’s really cool is to compare and contrast who Bush pardoned/commuted as he went out the door versus who that immense tub of intern-grabbin’ goo, Clinton, pardoned. (I mean Bill, not Hillary).

Also neat that this was kept on the Q.T. until the last minute.

All those who sided with the drug dealer above can kindly go suck rocks.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:09 pm 154. cedarford:

Fred takes the stupid bigot approach, extolling his beloved “armed heroes” as protectors, then judge, jury, and executioner of whomever they deem “bad guys”. Who should never be second-guessed, even if they “break a few silly laws, lie to their Chain of Command/”

Fred:

See bad guy, shoot bad guy. Simple. They should not have to even worry about whether they will be prosecuted for shooting a drug dealer. Their biggest mistake was not being in better control of their weapons. Get these guys out to the range.

Annotated Fred:

Fred (amended):

See bad guynigger, shoot bad guy nigger. Simple. They should not have to even worry about whether they will be prosecuted for shooting a drug dealer nigger. Their biggest mistake was not being in better control of their weapons. Get these guys out to the range.

Fred’s maxim works well for other groups on top of Mexicans and niggers. Leftists would add groups their hero armed agents could whack on impulse – crooked businessmen, people observed despoiling the pristine environment..

*****************
That said, Marc Malone makes the excellent point these guys are not cops, out to enforce local law and “catch criminals”. They are there to secure and control the Border, apprehend unauthorized crossers. Customs agents work with the Border Patrol, in theory at least, to ensure contraband does not cross.

If our politicians knew what the heck they were doing, then this incident would never have happened.

But they haven’t, and from war to terrorism to Border security they have crafted laws to define threats as uniformed soldiers on a battlefield or as civilian criminals, but nothing in-between.

And a society that obsesses on “Rule of Law!!!” but surrenders it’s common sense and ability to deter or destroy enemy or even control it’s Borders from being overrun and capitalists and their lawyers from screwing the masses – is in real trouble.

Ramos and Compean were two little shits that only help illustrate the larger problems our Ruling Elites from NYC through Houston through SF have inflicted on us, and are festering.

Now we get word that “Rule of Law” fetish-worshippers in the Obama Administration are seriously considering trying the 9/11 Mastermind in civilian court in the 2nd District and only for “indictable” crimes he did before 9/11. That he may not be indictable for 9/11 for various civilian “due process” violations of his “Constitutional Rights”.

The public will sure love that.

Khalid Shekh Mohammed gets away with creating, planning and running the 9/11 operation. Because “Rule of Law!!” because he wasn’t in military uniform applies…And to save the lives of thousands of innocents, he was captured outside a US civilian judges warrant in a foreign country with no “chain of evidence” maintained, he was interrogated without a lawyer or his Right to the 5th…which apparantly saved hundreds of US Navy and Singapore people, and up to several thousand at Heathrow where his 2nd thwarted plot was to drive fueled jets into the air terminal and burn as many people alive as possible. (Heathrow may have between 3200 and 38,000 in the Terminal at any time).

Lots of Jewish progressives and Democrats demand that America become a “People of the Law” 1st and foremost, at the expense of all our other goals and values.
No, Jews are “People of the Law”, except, perhaps when it comes to commerce.
Americans are not a people slavishly devoted to “letter of law”.

1. They are people of common sense.
2. They value swift and sure justice over endless nuance and endless due process.
3. They value common sense, liberty, domestic tranquility, freedom, the right to be secure in their persons home and property – far more than “terrorist rights”. “criminal rights”, and loss of those rights and blessings of liberty to a small Elite of lawyers that seek to bind and control the people to their will.
4. They reject the dumb Freds who think shooting people on whim is OK, want us properly bound by law and regulation, but never at the supremacy of law and lawyers over elected officials, the Will of The People, and common sense.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:46 pm 155. Mike F:

Nice straw man, Mr. Owens.

If so many people were calling them “heroes”, surely you’d provide the quotes. But hey, you can’t have straw men, if you’re gonna use facts.

Campeon and Ramos did bad. But prison for shooting a drug dealer in the ass and lying about it?

nope. And President Bush saw the injustice too.

Suffer, Mr. Owens.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:05 pm 156. Barry:

I wasn’t sure which one shot Davila – Good shooting Ignacio. Next time just a little higher.

Jan 21, 2009 - 11:07 pm 157. paul_unalaska:

I don’t condone what R/C did following their interaction with the illegal. Nonetheless, their jail time and record is as good as a dishonorable discharge from the military. I hope it was worth it..

Can anyone conceive the MILLIONS of illegal aliens on probation in the U.S. right now? I’ve got another one. Should an illegal care about being on probation in the first place? What does probation mean to an illegal alien?

Entering our country twice illegally is a felony. Boom, when caught protocol should be to get your *ss on the jail bus and head on back to beautiful Nogales, Chihuahua or myriad of other pits the Mexican government obviously abandoned decades ago. Where’s our wall?

Instead, illegal aliens are given passes with multiple drunken driving charges. Driving without a drivers license, insurance, registration, etc.,

Heck, if encountered in an auto accident with an illegal alien driver, you’re guaranteed to get the ticket. The other ‘phantom’ driver’s rates will not go up, they won’t have to be without their vehicle because they’ll buy another Dodge Dart which can’t pass emissions for a few 100 bucks tomorrow.

We can go on about illegal alien children or anchor babies ruining the public education system, in-state tuition for illegal aliens, lower college standards for illegal aliens (lowest demographic to attend and/or graduate a 4 year school. UCSB has over 60 Latino history courses.. how many courses of American history you may ask? 1.), bankrupting our health care state-by-state, abusing welfare, living like cockroaches in section 8 housing, food stamps, blatant gang warfare nationwide, dog fighting, high teen pregnancy stats, bringing down values of homes/neighborhoods, stealing jobs, keeping wages low in urban areas, theft, identity theft, frightening #’s of juveniles on probation (future residents of our penal system), et al. Not to worry, a now former La Raza member is in the Obama cabinet and will make everything ‘right.’

Jan 22, 2009 - 12:18 am 158. Linda Mae:

May I remind you of the horrific picture of 8 men – some of them police – who were beheaded by drug lords? Or the other times when cops were shot to death – executed really – by drug lords? Or other beheadings in which the heads were sent one place and the bodies another just to warn other cops to leave them alone?

If the two were guilty – there would have been only a few bullets fired – and those would have been in the front. Only innocent cops would have fired the way they did and not killed the crooks right away.

We must protect everyone’s rights. The crooks had the right to stop when told to. They also had the right to stop selling drugs, didn’t they? Another case of the guilty crying victim when the law tries to do its job.

Jan 22, 2009 - 1:10 am 159. P-nut:

Here’s a great idea, turn the “War on Drugs” into a real war. Shoot it out with any and everyone trying to bring drugs into the country, I’ll bet that would put a stop to it,quickly.

Jan 22, 2009 - 2:02 am 160. Magic:

I think the border patrol should make their officers qualify with their weapons more often, maybe a incentive to become experts. This policy would have insured that the drug runner (scum) could not have testified and this would have been unnecessary, and we would have one less felon to house and feed.

Jan 22, 2009 - 5:31 am 161. Ann141:

Thank you, President Bush. I always appreciate it when the criminals fare worse than law enforcement. I’ve always thought that was how it should be.

Jan 22, 2009 - 6:15 am 162. RedHeadedTexan:

Mr Owens, obviously you are uninformed about the facts of this case, and have shown your colossal ignorance in what you wrote. You can go pick up your check from the Mexican government now.

Jan 22, 2009 - 6:28 am 163. Bonnie_:

Border Patrol agents on the Mexican border are soldiers fighting a war with a foreign enemy, but they are restricted as though they are law enforcement officers. They are not, really, they’re in the same situation as our soldiers in the battlefield.

God bless these two Border agents, and God bless President Bush for commuting their sentences.

Jan 22, 2009 - 7:42 am 164. John Galt:

Bush should have pardoned Jonathan Pollard

About Jonathan Pollard
On November 21, 2008, Jonathan Pollard entered his 24th year of a life sentence for his activities on behalf of Israel.

The median sentence for the offense Pollard committed – one count of passing classified information to an ally – is 2 to 4 years. Pollard received his life sentence without a trial, as a result of a plea bargain which he honored and the U.S. government violated.

For more information, see the Pollard Case Information page and Israel Celebrates 60 Years.

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/

Jan 22, 2009 - 9:04 am 165. Greg:

Zeezil:

I understand why you think these guys were innocent and why you think there probably was a gun, but no gun was proven to exist. Also, the drug smuggler deserves to be in jail, as he now is. However, people are given immunity to testify against others all the time. Why should this case be any different? If these guys were 2 cops in El Paso who shot a guy running away. This story would have never been heard. People are making this an immigration issue not an issue of when is it OK to shoot at a suspect issue.

As I said, I am OK with these guys getting a commutation. I hope they are thankful. They are 2 of only 11 in 8 years! Hopefully a pardon is in their future

Jan 22, 2009 - 9:37 am 166. Blackwell:

These people are not heros: police are not supposed to shoot fleeing felons, destroy evidence (the brass), lie on their reports or leave wounded people to die. But they were excessively punished in a show trial and the jury kept ignorant of all of the facts. Cedarford’s comments are sound as usual.

As for John Galt’s effort to whitewash Pollard’s “activities on behalf of Israel,’ (known as “espionage” or “treason”), the effort to claim an adult permission slip (”he only meant to assist a friend) is no more convincing than when the Rosenbergs offered it for passing A bomb secrets to the USSR.

Pollard, Lindh and the other sordid collection of latter day Benedict Arnolds are indeed fortunate there was no vote taken on their punishment, which would have been far more severe than life in prison. He could have gone to trial–and had me on the jury. I’m not surprised he cut a deal rather than face the citizens he betrayed.

Mr. Pollard took it on himself to steal US secrets. The median sentence obviously wasn’t deterring him. I hope his admirers in US government service will find his sentence a more impressive deterrent.

Jan 22, 2009 - 9:55 am 167. Will Sharpe:

Leatherhead:

Just giving you props on the comment, one of the funniest I’ve seen yet on this site.

Jan 22, 2009 - 10:19 am 168. momof3:

I have no problem with the fact that an illegal alien entering our country ILLEGALLY and with an ILLEGAL substance, was shot in the back. My only issue is that he lived. If we can’t shoot scum invading our country with drugs in hand, then we might as well surrender to mexico right now.

Jan 22, 2009 - 10:44 am 169. Vatar:

If you believe they were convicted based on anything other than their own testimony, I doubt that you have read their own testimony. After reading it, there is no other logical verdict.

Jan 22, 2009 - 10:45 am 170. Victor:

Who presented true story to the Court? Drug dealler? Was any eye witness?
I would like to know.
Victor

Jan 22, 2009 - 11:15 am 171. momof3:

Too late, you are such a dumbass. Cops get shot and killed when pulling people over for traffic stops. Do you not realize this? Of course they are going to take necessary precautions to stay alive. If you don’t like our cops, move somewhere that has none. I’m sure you’ll be happier, for the few days you live.

Cops can, in fact, shoot fleeing suspects. How would you like it if they let that guy get away, and he ran into your house, and shot you and stole your car? because that’s what those of us who actually live on the border-not 1000 miles away-have to deal with every day. Here in texas, I can still defend my home with lethal force, thank god. Or do you think people ought to be able to break into other’s homes and get a free pass?

Jan 22, 2009 - 11:22 am 172. Cubdriver:

As a career law enforcement officer with more than 25 years fighting bad guys, I tend to believe cops more than I believe drug dealers. I have seen more drug dealers and bad guys like this jackass Mexican smuggler than any of you have and I think the drug dealer should rot in his cell. My only regret is that President Bush didn’t commute this sentance immediately after they were illegally convicted.

Jan 22, 2009 - 11:49 am 173. Jeanine:

To me, the commute of their sentences swept a lot of Bush’s other shortcomings aside. Johnny Sutton is a good friend of Bush’s and he didn’t want to appear to interfer with what Sutton did…Sutton, however has quite a record of arrogance and misuse of power. HE should be arrested for what he did to these men.

By commuting the sentence, Bush is able to get them out of jail without hurting his friend, Sutton’s feelings…after all, Sutton himself said the sentences were too harsh (he did not set the sentence).

This blogger failed to mentioned all the awards both of these men have received in the military and while agents. They are also both Hispanic and not “prejudiced” as was intimated in some news reports. It is also strange that a relative for the piece of garbage they shot worked in the Federal government… just saying…this incident has stank from the start. The piece of garbage was caught again with drugs and is FINALLY in prison–costing American citizens money to housing and feed him– but had they killed him, it would have just been another dead drug dealer.

Thank you, President Bush for doing this for their families, if for no other reason. Those poor wives and children’s lives have been hell and even if Ramos and Compean WERE guilty, they didn’t deserve what they had to go through. In fact, last month, Ramos’ home was invaded and everything in it destroyed, ripped, and broken….

BTW, the day before yesterday, a cop was shot here when he pulled over a drug dealer and another cop was run over by this same piece of garbage–too bad, so sad for him, they killed his sorry butt. Both officers will recover.

Jan 22, 2009 - 12:15 pm 174. Pappadave:

First of all, they didn’t “drop him” with a shot to the buttocks. He kept running…back across the border into Mexico. He was never apprehended for THIS crime, even though he’d been shot in the butt. He was apprehended LATER for AGAIN smuggling pot and it was then that he went to the prosecutor and told him his story. The prosecutor then gave the smuggler a GREEN CARD so he COULD remain in the US legally and be used as a prosecution witness in the trial. After the trial, he was caught once again smuggling BOTH pot and illegals. At the time of his latest arrest, he presented the arresting officers with one of the prosecutor’s business cards and told him that he was “protected.”

Ramos and Compean SHOULD have been given a box of shotgun shells and a carton of cigarettes and sent back on patrol. This prosecution was, in fact, criminal in nature and the prosecutor deliberately withheld vital evidence from the jury. Their convictions should have been overturned on that basis alone. This commutation was a “mistake” only insofar as it wasn’t a full pardon.

Jan 22, 2009 - 12:37 pm 175. zeezil:

WORTH REPEATING…

Cubdriver #172 said:
As a career law enforcement officer with more than 25 years fighting bad guys, I tend to believe cops more than I believe drug dealers. I have seen more drug dealers and bad guys like this jackass Mexican smuggler than any of you have and I think the drug dealer should rot in his cell. My only regret is that President Bush didn’t commute this sentance immediately after they were illegally convicted.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————–
I agree 100%

Jan 22, 2009 - 1:03 pm 176. Shef Rogers:

Drug dealers are pure capitalist entrepreneurs. Why won’t you face that fact? How can advocates of limited government cheer armed bureaucrats who shoot a bootstraps entrepreneur trying to sell people something they want? It’s crazy.

Jan 22, 2009 - 1:51 pm 177. ILikeIke:

To momof3, who said: “I have no problem with the fact that an illegal alien entering our country ILLEGALLY and with an ILLEGAL substance, was shot in the back.”

May you never need the due process you are so eager to deprive of others.

Jan 22, 2009 - 3:25 pm 178. DONALD:

Best thing Bush did, only it should have been a full pardon.

Jan 22, 2009 - 3:28 pm 179. Pete:

Where there any witnesses to the allegedly criminal acts of these agents, or the drug dealer? If they are not, then it is simply their word against his, plus whatever the forensic evidence shows. The punishment did not fit the crime; if there was misconduct, then the agents should have been suspended or perhaps discharged from the BP. That the word of a known criminal is trusted over that of our agents is very disturbing, to say the least. We see the same bureaucratic CYA in the case of the Haditha Marines, accused by later exonerated by a military court.

Not the best way to get good people to defend our nation! That is, showing them that they will be fed to the wolves at the first sign of controversy, or political fallout from their actions, taken under fire and in great stress. Chair warmers should be very careful about passing judgement on those at the scene!

Jan 22, 2009 - 3:55 pm 180. zeezil:

Hey, ILikeIke…your not going to like Ike so much anymore when you realize he deported a million of your illegal alien friends…

How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

Jan 22, 2009 - 7:59 pm 181. Pat Patterson:

Tes, there was indeed another agent, a first year just out of probation, Oscar Juarez who initiated the chase in Fabens by turning on is lights and attempting to pull the drug van over. He was the agent that Compean tried to suborn by telling Juarez to look for the other casings, to not speak to the supervisors and to lie during his depostion that he had seen the right handed Davila holding a gun in his left hand. Two other agents(Arturo Vasquez and Jose Mendoza), not supervisors, who arrived just immediately after the shooting. the former saw Compean picking up his casings and rubbing out footprints while the latter talked to Ramos who made no mention of a shooting though Compean eventually talked about the shooting but made no claim of seeing a gun or whether he thought that Davila posed an imminent threat.

Again forget the blogs and read either the transcript or a summary. The bulk of R&C’s defense consisted in trying to contradict both their tardy shooting reports and their depositions before the trial. Congress created the law, Title 18, USC sec. 924(c)(1)(A)(iii), that made that the discharge of a firearm during a crime of violence punishable with prison for at LEAST ten years. No exemptions were provided for by Congress covering law enforcement and the court and the jury had no problem with either trying them under the law or convicting them. Neither did the two judges during the appeals have any problem with the sentencing.

Pappadave might also want to check the transcript because Davila laid on the ground for anywhere from five to ten minutes waiting for the three agents to arrest him. When no attempt to take him into custody he simply stood up, within eyesight of the agents who admitted they had shot him, and went home. Keystone Kops on the Rio Grande.

Jan 22, 2009 - 8:33 pm 182. Pat Patterson:

Tes, there was indeed another agent, a first year just out of probation, Oscar Juarez who initiated the chase in Fabens by turning on is lights and attempting to pull the drug van over. He was the agent that Compean tried to suborn by telling Juarez to look for the other casings, to not speak to the supervisors and to lie during his depostion that he had seen the right handed Davila holding a gun in his left hand. Two other agents(Arturo Vasquez and Jose Mendoza), not supervisors, who arrived just immediately after the shooting. the former saw Compean picking up his casings and rubbing out footprints while the latter talked to Ramos who made no mention of a shooting though Compean eventually talked about the shooting but made no claim of seeing a gun or whether he thought that Davila posed an imminent threat.

Again forget the blogs and read either the transcript or a summary. The bulk of R&C’s defense consisted in trying to contradict both their tardy shooting reports and their depositions before the trial. Congress created the law, Title 18, USC sec. 924(c)(1)(A)(iii), that made that the discharge of a firearm during a crime of violence punishable with prison for at LEAST ten years. No exemptions were provided for by Congress covering law enforcement and the court and the jury had no problem with either trying them under the law or convicting them. Neither did the two judges during the appeals have any problem with the sentencing.

Pappadave might also want to check the transcript because Davila laid on the ground for anywhere from five to ten minutes waiting for the three agents to arrest him. When no attempt to take him into custody he simply stood up, within eyesight of the agents who admitted they had shot him, and went home. Keystone Kops on the Rio Grande.

Jan 22, 2009 - 8:33 pm 183. mike:

Its a Dangerous job to be a law enforcement officer.. As a result I afford all law enforcement officers with RESPECT. I followed this case, the two border guards did not act professionally…they lost my respect. Whether they should spend a long time in prison is another question.

Jan 23, 2009 - 1:26 am 184. zeezil:

More and more is coming out about the meddling of the Mexican government in the prosecution and commutation of the Border agents. For the last two nights, Lou Dobbs has had segments on his nightly news show on this. Last night, he had four Republican Congressmen on discussing Mexico’s intervention against the border agents: John Culberson, TX; Ted Poe, TX; Dana Rohrabacher, CA; Walter Jones, NC. They are interested in getting an investigation started in Congress to force DHS and the Justice Department to diviulge all contact they had with Mexico over the case. That the Bush administration would entertain this from the Mexico is shameful, even treasonous.

Contact your Congressmen and Senators via phone or e-mail and tell them you want a Congressional investigation into Mexico’s meddling into this case. Demand full transparency and disclosure.

Jan 23, 2009 - 5:49 am 185. ILikeIke:

zeezil, Thank you for posting that article. It illustrates the right way to handle illegal immigrants. Deport them.

Shooting them in the back (er…sorry, in the butt) and trying to cover it up is the wrong way.

What’s so difficult to understand about that?

PS…Listening to Lou Dobbs on this issue is much like listening to Al Gore on Global Warming. Yes, they care about their pet issue with great intensity. But they’re too wedded to their preconceived notions to do the issue any justice.

Jan 23, 2009 - 9:45 am 186. WestWright:

Since the new BO Admin has guaranteed they will be the transparent admin it is a good time to contact them for a Congressional investigation into Mexico’s meddling into this case. Demand full transparency and disclosure.

Jan 23, 2009 - 10:03 am 187. momof3:

ILIKEIKE, if I ever sneak into a foreign country with illegal drugs, I will expect that or worse. A life in jail with no trial, execution, any number of other things that countries other than us engage in to keep their nation safe from intruders. SO much worrying about the rights of the lowest of the dregs of society. Can’t people find a worthier cause? Endangered salamanders, or something?

Jan 23, 2009 - 10:37 am 188. ILikeIke:

momof3, “if I ever sneak into a foreign country with illegal drugs, I will expect that or worse. A life in jail with no trial, execution, any number of other things that countries other than us engage in to keep their nation safe from intruders.”

Good thing you live in America then, where in order to get life in jail or executed you must first endure a trial.

What you need to understand is this: This isn’t about protecting illegal immigrant drug dealers. It’s about protecting our system of law and order.

As our nation’s prison population can attest, it is possible to observe the rule of law and simultaneously punish the guilty. That’s what separates the civilized (us) from the foreign brutes you cite.

Jan 23, 2009 - 11:49 am 189. zeezil:

Ike #129…Sorry but it is you, not I, who doesn’t know what they are talking about. As I stated previously, illegal aliens have no “civil rights”. Look it up…to save you the trouble, listed below is Webster’s Dictionary definition of “civil rights”:

Civil Rights
Noun
1. Right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship including especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th amendments and subsequent acts of Congress including the right to legal and social and economic equality.

Civil rights are those legal protections granted to citizens under the jurisdiction of the civil law of a state. They are distinguished from human rights in that they may be violated or removed, and they may or may not apply to all individuals living within the borders of that state.

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/civil+rights

Jan 23, 2009 - 12:47 pm 190. Jim G:

Galt you need to take your head out of your a–. Pollard is a spy spys are executed. That is what needs to be done TO ALL DRUG DEALERS Should BE KILLED ON SITE OF CRIME. Mexoco could care less about Americas drug problem it just increases thier wealth

Jan 23, 2009 - 2:00 pm 191. ILikeIke:

zeezil, Said that your understanding of complicated US legal codes starts and ends with Webster’s dictionary…

While in the US, everyone –citizens, foreign national, illegal immigrants– is subject to US law, including the US Constitution.

From a purely legal standpoint, you are wrong. The law doesn’t apply to illegal immigrants? Since when?

It’s the law that declares them illegal in the first place!

Jan 23, 2009 - 2:45 pm 192. Brack:

Former Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean were found NOT Guilty on the attempted murder charge in their trial.
U.S. Senators Dianne Feinstein of California and John Cornyn of Texas, sent a Bi-Partisan Letter to George W. Bush, highly recommending that the harsh Prison Sentences of Ramos and Compean be Commuted. It was Clearly the Right Thing to do.

Jan 23, 2009 - 2:57 pm 193. zeezil:

Mr. Frank Jorge, founder of the Antelope Valley Independent Minutemen in an e-mail to Donald A. Collins of FAIR (Federation of American Immigration Reform):

“The false imprisonment and politically motivated persecution of Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean has taken a positive turn with the commutation of their sentences by George W. Bush on his last day as president. It has been reported that Texas congressman, John Culberson hand delivered a bi-partisan request from Texan government officials (34 of 37 ) for an end to the unjust imprisonment of these men whom many of us hold in high esteem and regard as American heroes.

The terms of the commutation are as follows:
-Both will be on probation for three years under terms of the presidential order
-The two men remain on file as felons
-They will not be released until March 20, 2009
-The conviction will stay on their records

They will be on supervised release

These men, Compean and Ramos, continue to be victimized by the George Bush political machine. They should be exonerated, their records wiped clean, their jobs restored with back pay, an apology, and restitution for the injustice they and their families have endured made.

A further investigation into the machinations of Texas prosecutor Johnny Sutton and all others involved in the framing of these officers must be made and justice meted out with the probable incarceration of Sutton and his accomplices as its goal. George Bush has without doubt reflected upon the liabilities to himself as a former president going back to Texas where he has decided to live. He granted a commutation in order to spare himself…not the two agents.

Why do they have to wait two months before being released from prison? They should have been released long ago. This was a politically motivated prosecution from the beginning with the purpose of making Border Patrol agents think twice before protecting our borders and to keep the borders open.

Of the prosecution of these agents Texas Rep Ted Poe said in November, “These two guys are political prisoners”. Los Angeles California Radio station KFI’s John and Ken have said that they will host a fund raiser for the agents and their families in the near future . Joe Loya, father in law of agent Ramos said that he had faith that this day would come. I thank those of you that attended our AVIMM rally held in Santa Clarita along with Roger Gitlin’s SCVIMM a few months back and met Joe Loya and his family. Thank you once again for your donations made on that day directly to Mr Loya.

President Bush leaves office as possibly the worst president in American history. A man who will be remembered as a small, petty human being that sacrificed our nations honor to illegal aliens from third world countries for political gain. He will be remembered for having kept the borders open in spite of the public outcry to secure them and to enforce immigration law.

Bush’s presidency after eight years has seen America degraded as our nation’s wealth evaporated on his watch and thousands of Americans grieve after their loved ones were murdered or assaulted by the illegal aliens that he allowed into our nation. He will be remembered for having destroyed the Republican Party, the stability of our nation and the hopes of its citizens.”

http://www.vdare.com/collins/090122_immigration.htm

Jan 23, 2009 - 3:28 pm 194. zeezil:

Ike #191 – It’s obvious you cannot admit when you are wrong. There’s nothing complicated about it. Illegal aliens do not have Civil Rights, period. Civil Rights are reserved for citizens. Needless to say, Ike, illegal aliens are not citizens. Unfortunately, bleeding heart, activist judges and courts have ascribed rights to illegals far beyond what they actually should have.

Jan 23, 2009 - 3:33 pm 195. zeezil:

Mexican government lobbied to prevent Ramos, Compean from being released
http://24ahead.com/mexican-government-lobbied-prevent-ramos-compean-being-relea

On yesterday’s Lou Dobbs show, Casey Wian said this about the Ramos and Compean commutation:

“Mexico’s Deputy Secretary of Foreign Relations Carlos Rico (ph) said, quote, “this is a message of impunity, it’s difficult to understand.” He also acknowledged that Mexican officials had lobbied hard to prevent the former Border Patrol agent’s release.”

UPDATE: There’s much more on this in the 1/22 transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/22/ldt.01.html

Various congressmen think there was extensive involvement by the Mexican government in the case; hopefully an investigation into contacts between that government and the Bush administration will be launched.

Jan 23, 2009 - 4:17 pm 196. ILikeIke:

Zeezil, You’re entitled to your opinion, as uninformed as it is, and contrary to reality. But a little advice…

Don’t apply for a job with ICE. You don’t meet their minimum competency requirements.

Jan 23, 2009 - 7:03 pm 197. zeezil:

I know its beyond your ability to admit your wrong, Ike. You leftists have a single thought in your mind…anarchy. Your really not one Ike would like.

Jan 23, 2009 - 8:57 pm 198. Pat Patterson:

Aliens, illegal and legal are covered under the 5th and 6th Amendment in regards to civil rights. Due process, writs of habeus corpus, speedy trial, no torture, etc. This has essentially been confirmed ever since the time of Madison v Marbury. In fact the extension of civil rights has been the concern of societies even earlier then the socii and amicii guarantees of the Romans. If one has not civil rights as a non-citizen then you can’t get a loan, get a driver’s license or even sign a contract to rent videos at Blockbuster. But obviously not all of these right outlined in the Amendments extend to aliens, the right to vote, to hold office, to serve on a jury etc.

Now some may want to limit the rights already described and than is their perogative but simply holding one’s breath and quoting from the ill-informed Lou Dobbs and my own local congressman, Dana Rohrbacher does not make the idea either accurate or germane. Do some of the commenters here have a pathological fear of quoting primary sources instead of constantly relying on secondary sources or opinion pieces?

Jan 23, 2009 - 10:44 pm 199. speedypete:

I travel to Mexico nd I am not from there or have any of my relations ever originated from there. I love the people I work with and all the people I meet but because they can’t get a handle on the evil people this is no picnic. Did the border agents shoot first and ask questions later? Probably. Are they sick and tired of the evil people? No doubt. I will wager that Mr. Owens doesn’t see the side that I see. I eat my corn flakes every morning expecting to see either Jane Fonda or Johnny Sutton in the news. The justice system hammer was lowered on them for doing their job which is very sad for the people on both sides they are trying to protect.

Jan 24, 2009 - 7:12 am 200. Sweetpea:

Dear Bob,

Why did a drug dealer feel comfortable going to the Mexican authorities with his story ? As a drug runner and a drug dealer shouldn’t he have been afraid ? Why did Mexico support this drug dealer ? Why is the drug dealer now in American jail and not deterred from running drugs? How was he able to escape. I agree with other comments that the border agents should be taken to the firing range for practice.

Jan 24, 2009 - 7:40 am 201. Shef Rogers:

If you people had any real conservative principles, you’d support the risk-taking pure-capitalist entrepreneur–the drug deal–rather than the armed bureaucrats who shot him. You’re not conservatives, just authoritarian nationalists.

Jan 24, 2009 - 8:10 am 202. zeezil:

Reply to #201…so what are you, Shef…your garden variety anarchist?

Jan 24, 2009 - 11:42 am 203. zeezil:

Reply to #198…it seems as though you wish to cherry pick and choose “civil rights”. Or is it that you are in distress that illegal aliens cannot obtain drivers (in most states), cannot vote (though some do illegally), cannot access public/social services meant for citizens in distress (though illegals routinely access public services), etc…

The V Amendment grants that “no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law”.

The VI Amendment grants the “right to speedy and public trial” in criminal prosecutions.

I don’t mind extending the rights of those amendments to illegal aliens…eventhough they have no regard for our laws.

Jan 24, 2009 - 11:59 am 204. Pat Patterson:

I was simply responding to comment #194 which denied that illegal aliens had civil rights when under at least the two I mentioned they do have some rights and some rights they don’t have. Do you agree now that legal and illegal have some civil rights or not? I notice that you carefully do not respond to the examples of things that are recognized as rights such as legally binding contracts, loan agreements, driver’s licenses(which coincidentally are not a right but a privilege limited in issuance by the individual states.

Think about the problems of not having civil rights afforded to legal and illegal aliens. If one of them witnesses a crime without access to due process they may not testify in court because they do not have standing. Or if they commit a crime then how are they judged and punished if they have no legal status to defend.

The rest of your comment and earlier comments are simply an attempts at ad hominem fallacies in trying to characterize anyone that disagress with your shaky legal knowledge and apparently the facts of the case as having ulterior motives.

Jan 24, 2009 - 6:59 pm 205. sandy kenly:

They did not “cover it up”. They were only required to inform their supervisors of the incident. The supervisors were on scene within minutes so there was no need to inform. The judge was quoted “they were convicted because they turned on their own”. It seems that Hispanics have little regard for Hispanic Border Patrolmen. The drug smugglers’s mother said her son never crossed the border without a gun. The Mexican gov. demanded the proscecution of these men. The Mexican gov. role in this is now being investigated by members of Congress.

Jan 24, 2009 - 8:07 pm 206. Frank:

#17 mishu: “Oy vey. Sounds like you know nothing about the law and only want to keep smelly Mexicans out.”

*cough*Ramos*cough*Compean*cough*Hispanic*cough*

Jan 24, 2009 - 9:33 pm 207. JackT:

They should not shoot them in the back, the should shoot them in the front. Just round all of them up and shoot them. That’s the only thing they understand.

Jan 24, 2009 - 10:32 pm 208. Pat Patterson:

The two supervisors were not on the scene in minutes and R&C were required to report a shooting immediately and a full report within 30 days and not assume that by ESP that the supervisors knew there had been a shooting. Especially after Compean picked up his casings and threw them in a ditch and also admitted to picking the one casing of Ramos. Especially since neither of the two supervisors found out about the shooting for 30 to 45 days and one only found out when his superiors made a courtesy call to his office warning that Compean and Ramos were going to be arrested and Agent Vasquez was being named an accessory(for picking up some of Compean’s casings and not reporting the shooting. Plus what law enforcement official in the US would clean the scene of a shooting unless they were planning on hiding the event. Both agents admitted in their tardy reports, in their depositions and in trial that they knew they were required to report and to make matters worse Ramos had been a fire arms instructor and one of the things that he covered was the requirement concerning reports.

The claim that Davila’s mother testified that her son always crossed the border with a gun is risible mainly because she has denied ever making that statement. Also that she never testified and secondly her testimony about a gun is hearsay and irrelevant to that particular day as even after the report was finally filed there was no mention of a gun and one of the BP agents who testified said that Davila held up both hands and did not have a gun. But since R&C chose not to affect an arrest proving Davila had a gun is moot as well as the case of smuggling. They botched procedure, revealed that Compean couldn’t hit the ground with 14 shots, lied every step of the legal mess they were in and couldn’t convince one juror of even a reasonable doubt.

You know it’s just possible that a few BP agents are incompetent and criminal and to act otherwise seems more a trait of liberals than conservatives.

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:46 am 209. zeezil:

Comment #208 reply: Your grasp of the facts of the case are shaky at best, Mr. Robertson, and seem to reek of an agenda of wrongly trying your best to characterize these two fine men as corrupt Border Patrol agents. I find it disturbing as to the weight you give the testimony of the illegal alien drug cartel mule and his mother.

Jan 25, 2009 - 3:34 pm 210. Pat Patterson:

Again, Davila’s mother did not testify in the trial and most of the witnesses against Ramos and Compean were there fellow agents. Davila’s testimony was thought initially by the US Attorney as critical until he found that the other agents could corraborate everything the Davila said. But as the victim of a shooting and coverup his testimony in front of a jury who convicted them and a judge who presided was important.

Saying one has a shaky grasp of the facts is not really much of a response unless you can actually contradict what I said instead of just going neener, neener. Or better yet misrepresent what I wrote, where did I make any reference to “…these two fine men,” and then go off on completely unsupported tangents. Again the JURY convicted the two after two weeks of testimony where R&C’s four defense attorneys couldn’t break the story not only of Davila but the untampered evidence and the testimony of the other agents who witnessed various parts of the shooting.

One of those fine men told Paula Coloff of Texas Monthly that,

“If anything , Comean and I should have gotten an administrative punishment–if that…As for Aldrete-Davila, you know what? He got what he deserved.”

Luckily for us, all of the BP agents I know are still horrified at the stupidity of the two ex-agents, Ramos especially, and are glad the two were convicted. Though in fairness they have mixed emotions about the commutation but are against any pardon.

Jan 25, 2009 - 5:45 pm 211. Doug:

“PS-Davila was such a successful drug dealer that he was living on his mother’s couch during this period and after shot couldn’t afford to got to a doctor and used duct tape to try to stop the bleeding.”
—
Are we then supposed to FORGET that he violated the law, violated his agreement, crossed illegally, imported more illegal drugs, and that this information was denied to the jury?
The fact that he was living on his mother’s couch means nothing.

Jan 25, 2009 - 6:49 pm 212. Doug:

…he was on the lam, and hiding out.
bfd

Jan 25, 2009 - 6:50 pm 213. Pat Patterson:

Agreed but to characterize him as a succesfull drug dealer is simply a lazy stereotype based on nothing more than animus. The admissability of evidence is determined by the judge if it is pertinent to the case. His subsequent arrest, though reprehensible, had nothing to do with being shot and then the agents destroying the crime scene and ending any chance of prosecuting Davila for that smuggling charge. This issue was taken up on appeal and denied.

What agreement are you referring to as the grant of immunity only dealt with the shooting and nothing else. R&C had botched any chance of Davila being charged so it was essentially an easy grant as the case against Davila was nonexistent.

Here’s the official response to most of the claims,

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/Setting%20the%20Record%20Straight%204-25%202007.pdf

and again a narrative of the shooting and an overview of the trial itself,

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/Badges%20of%20Honor.pdf

I can only suggest that if people have strongly held positions concerning the shootings and the trial then perhaps reading the transcript(3,000+ pages makes that difficult) but there is an official government response to the fantasies being spun on the internet. Or one could read the coverage of local and Texas reporters who covered the trial from the start to the finish.

Lou Dobbs is hunting for an issue to garner ratings, the talk show Edd Hendee, the minutemen, Ted Poe et al are basically anti-Mexican nut cases and will milk this issue with no regards for the facts as long as there are believers with PayPal accounts.

Jan 26, 2009 - 12:49 am 214. Pat Patterson:

As to Davila hiding out it was at his instigation that his mother called her friend, the mother of another BP agent asking if it was normal to shoot and then not arrest the suspect. And it was that agent who reported the whole mess to Washington because he felt that the Border Patrol couldn’t afford to have people lying about this shooting. He initially thought that Davila was lying and he wanted to protect the agency from the rumors he was beginning to hear throughout the Rio Grande Valley.

Jan 26, 2009 - 12:52 am 215. Jimmy37:

Wow, which pack of lies did you decide to believe?

Jan 26, 2009 - 10:38 am 216. Pat Patterson:

The so-called pack of lies that the jury heard and that the defense attorneys were not able to create even the smallest amount of doubt. How about referencing some facts on your own. I notice that the response from many pro-R&C commenters here is to simply either call facts lies or make an ad hominem attack. So if you want a debate or even a disagreement fine but bring some facts and citations to the table are simply sit on the sideline grousing about how come nobody pays any attention to the bigots and the nutcases.

Jan 26, 2009 - 3:29 pm 217. oscar:

I have to agree with Pat, these BP agents acted illegally. If we want people from other countries to follow our laws we might want to start by demanding that our law enforcement does too. I can only hope that anybody that thinks that these guys are heroes or deserve medals did not read the transcripts. I know America is better than this. The whole mob mentallity in this case has been insane. The mob just listened to what they were told, made a decision, and ignored the facts. We have to question and demand the truth from our leaders and those who enforce the law( they can’t make it up as they go). If you give somebody the power to do as they please it always ends badly( the whole power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutley thing). I guess the checks and balances thing is pretty cool, lets stop giving people blank checks to do or spend as they please before we end up sleeping on our mother’s rented couch.

Jan 27, 2009 - 7:07 am 218. Gilligan:

I have heard several members of the jury interviewed since the trial. They have all stated that if they had known that Davilla had been offered immunity to testify and that he had been caught smuggling drugs again, the jury would never have convicted Ramos and Compean. I guess that is why the judge suppressed that bit of evidence.

Something to keep in mind about the evidence you are presented with the next time you are on jury duty.

Jan 27, 2009 - 11:17 am 219. Pat Patterson:

I doubt that you have heard one juror make such a comment but have heard several secondary sources make that claim. The three jurors who were quoted in the papers as to making different claims had to admit that they had been polled in the courtroom on the verdict and they also admitted that they knew full well that the verdict Or perhaps like I have done linked to what actually happened and continued to point out that the jurors were polled individually in court about the guilt of the two and subsequent claims of not hearing all the facts have been disputed in both the appeals.

Let’s consider an example in that you have gotten a speeding ticket of which there is some doubt whether the radar was calibrated, proper identification made or any other exclupatory event. But during the trial, you have decided to fight the ticket, you are given another speeding ticket. Is it ok then to bring the second ticket before the judge or the jury by the prosecutor? Do you think you would have gotten a fair trial on the initial charge if you were aware there was a second speeding charge? That is why judge’s rule on evidence and that is why the prosecution and the defense argue in from of a judge to exclude or admit certain information that they judge will help one side or the other. And as I keep pointing out all of these claims have been dismissed by two different appeals. Which means that any information the judge deemed inadmissable was also ruled inadmissable at the appelate level.

Plus, and this is most important, some prior acts are kept from a jury because they may prejudice the panel in one way or another. If all the information was submitted then it would have become known that Ramos had been arrested twice for domestic violence, had a restraining order against him at one time and suspended for lying about the incident and had to undergo court ordered anger management classes. This information is and was irrelevant to Ramos’s actions that day and were not allowed by the judge.

Secondly the transcript makes it quite clear, as the defense brought it up, that the jury knew of Davila’s grant of immunity for that particular day. The second so-called arrest never took place as the witness turned out to a member of another smuggling crew and considered not reliable and claiming that the jury was kept from this information is a leap considering this second incident occurred after the jury had rendered a verdict. I’m not too sure that there are grounds for overturning a verdict because the prosecution didn’t hire a fortune teller.

Jan 27, 2009 - 1:48 pm

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