Pajamas Media

37 Comments

1. David S:

I think it’s about time that workers got their right to organize back.

When an employer can refuse to certify a union, regardless of the workers’ decision, that’s a failure of democracy.

Card check is one thing that could very much improve the lives of lower income workers, who have been losing ground for decades now. If the Democrats can make it happen, they deserve their rewards.

Peace.

DS

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:45 pm 2. SteveOftheNorth:

David,

The Dept. of Labor is still there. It is still legal to vote in a union without this law.
When did organized labor get removed from law? Labor has the force of FEDERAL LAW backing it.
The laws protecting company owners and investors have been weakened over years.
I.E. McDonalds multi million dollar lawsuit against it.

Google: Minneapolis Teamsters strike

What do you think will happen to the people that vote “no”?
Have you ever tried to be non-union in a union shop?

When an employer can refuse to certify a union, regardless of the workers’ decision, that’s a failure of democracy.

Something about ownership? Democracy is a form of government not ownership.

Jun 19, 2009 - 3:56 am 3. OhReallyQ2009:

David S:

There’s another unspoken alternative – businesses being shut down or moved overseas.

Then MORE people will be living on lower income.

Is that what you really want?

Jun 19, 2009 - 4:26 am 4. David B:

David S, I don’t disagree in theory with you: workers should have the right to organize. In our country they do.

What galls me about the proposed EFCA is the removal of the secret ballot. If the unions are so wanted and needed by employees what purpose does it serve to deny that right? Let people freely choose what they want without threats of coercion or repercussion.

Oh yeah, I’m not too hot about the government being able to dictate employment contracts either.

Jun 19, 2009 - 5:47 am 5. IP 727:

“When an employer can refuse to certify a union, regardless of the workers’ decision, that’s a failure of democracy.”~~DAVID S

When a misinformed moonbat like david can express such obvious bravo sierra,that’s a failure of the American educational system.The secret ballot is sacrosanct in this country davie boy, and the courts would smack this union good crapola down in a new york second.

Jun 19, 2009 - 5:54 am 6. antaine:

Part of the problem regarding the whole union situation in this country is that they’ve been allowed (in some cases encouraged) by law to become as powerful as the trusts and monopolies busted in the days of Teddy Roosevelt.

Because of that, workers find themselves simply pawns in a different kind of money machine, and one that (like the UAW) actually has the power to kill the industry on which its workers rely.

Without question, unions are needed in many industries. If they were to all disappear today, it wouldn’t take long before working conditions fell to the levels that prompted union creation in the first place.

But there’s a big difference between ensuring your workers get a fair wage and benefits, safe working conditions and decent treatment in terms of fair raises, wrongful termination, etc, and grossly overinflating the value of the labor the workers produce (the workers basically sell a service to their employers: their labor, skills, expertise, etc) to the point that the industry is bled dry and can no longer sustain itself.

To further drive the point home, the car companies operating non-unionized plants in the southern US are doing MUCH better than GM and Chrysler even though GM and Chrysler sell more cars. The workers make less, although they still make an excellent wage.

In the last 100 years or so, the law has put all kinds of restrictions on companies that inhibit their ability to coerce and extort from their workers. The unions have been subject to virtually none of the same regulation (there is some, but not nearly enough to which the auto industry bears testament).

It’s possible for a good thing to turn parasitic and detrimental if it gets too large or powerful. After looking at the auto industry (and others), there can be no question that unions have reached that tipping point.

Jun 19, 2009 - 6:14 am 7. blotto:

DavidS: I keep telling myself not to answer you but the sheer idiocy of your comments forces me to.

“…workers got their right to organize back.”
When did it go away?

“When an employer can refuse to certify a union…” You are forgetting, intentionally, that the employer can do what he/she wants because it is his/her company.

What happens when the company closes because the owner cannot make payroll??

Jun 19, 2009 - 6:15 am 8. Fernando:

What part of the following statement does this David character not understand?:

“No one should assume that the increased influence of these labor leaders will actually help average workers.”

Besides lies no do not make David’s argument better because as we all know, that “their right to organize back” was never, ever removed or taken away from anyone. Only the right of voting without being intimidated is being removed and we need that right back!!

Jun 19, 2009 - 6:33 am 9. arthur:

simply put; unions help workers get better work conditions, pay, benefits, and treatment.

Jun 19, 2009 - 7:01 am 10. IP 727:

arthur:

“simply put; unions help workers get better work conditions, pay, benefits, and treatment.”

Sometimes they do, it’s called union extortion, until such time as they bankrupt the employer or an industry. Can you spell UAW arthur???

Jun 19, 2009 - 7:15 am 11. Bill Perron:

The unions have done an incredible job of contributing to the financial collapse of the once great state of California. Power corrupts and unions have a history of becoming powerful and fostering corruption and destruction of the employer. General Motors is an example of what happens when unions become powerful.

Jun 19, 2009 - 7:22 am 12. Arroyo:

I am a former business owner of 30 years who employed union labor and witnessed the thuggery and intimidation up close and personal. This is a terrible piece of legislation. Like David S., most congressional members have never owned a business and had the “pleasure” of dealing with a union first-hand. Unions breed mediocre job performance by defending the slackers of our world, while neutralizing those with initiative, knowledge, and talent.

Jun 19, 2009 - 7:40 am 13. Blue Collar Todd:

The oil refinery I work at has the USW at it. When I first started the job and it was time for the new employees to decide to join or not, about 5 union leaders came in with menacing looks as everyone joined up. I was previously at a smaller refinery that did not have a union, and I see little benefit or difference between the two.

After seeing the union use their resources and my dues to support the campaign of then Senator Obama and other Liberal causes, I had had enough. After the new contract was signed just this year, there is a 30 day window to get out of the union and I did exactly that. It should also be noted the the union was threatening a strike while the economy was tanking.

I have blogged about this on several occasion if anyone would care to read more.

I am wondering that since there is a union already here, how will card check change things?

Jun 19, 2009 - 8:02 am 14. Don:

I don’t know, I think card check might be a good idea, especially for doctors in the coming health care nirvana. I suspect the AMA’s hostility to socialized medicine is the threat to rationalize the doctor’s working conditions. Instead of “fee for service” doctors will have to undergo Taylorism and its time and motion studies to better knock out more abortions while on salary. Brain surgeons will be over booked as they experience speed ups on the operating theater’s production line to reduce unit labor costs. Biased with the ideology of professionalism, doctors would perhaps better appreciate joining a union through card check and calling it a professional organization for negotiating wages and working conditions.

Jun 19, 2009 - 9:29 am 15. tammy:

Card check is a union payback and nothing more. If I owned a company and my employees thought they could bully me into joining a union I would FIRE them! Who do people think they are! You have no right to tell me how to run my business.
Unions are not needed like they once were. We have laws to protect workers now. If you don’t like your job, quit! Shut-up and get another job, or better yet, try starting your own company and see how easy it is. Anyone that says unions are needed is a lazy, go nowhere, ooh-poor-me employee – one that I would rather get rid of!

NO UNIONS!!

Jun 19, 2009 - 9:40 am 16. scott:

Well the UAW destroyed GM and Chrysler. They’ll probably take Ford down soon enough. What’s not to love?

Jun 19, 2009 - 9:59 am 17. Blackwell:

David S:

I worked a union job once. I can assure you there is no greater source of featherbedding, inefficiency and laziness. Wages and work rules become disconnected from reality. The incentives are for people to think and do less not more.

In government jobs, the same incentive is harmful to the public. The Los Angeles DOT resists automaticlly se-setting traffic lights that always go out in a rain–because it would eliminate the need for unionized DOT employees to go out and spend all day manually resetting them.

The LA Unified School District was just castigated by the liberal LA Times for refusing to enact rules that would enable the firing of teachers who are proven child molesters. (Thanks to union rules, LAUSD pays over 20 million a year to teachers it has suspended but cannot fire–to sit at home. Some have been sitting for years). I could go on but why? Eeryone knows its true.

Productive employees leave or are upset as their dues are used for all types of causes they don’t endorse. Whether management knows it or not, most workers want to do a good job. Most don’t want a union sucking their dues for a union administration every bit as bloated as Wasington D.C.

But here I am babbling on….the issue is maintaining employee choice: a secret ballot does quite well for that. But if the idea is to eliminate choice and allow unionzed goons (yes, those fellows bear no resemblance to a nice, fuzzy old man or woman) to coerce employees to join, then by all means, the proposed legislation is just the ticket. Surely that is not what you want.

Be a real friend to workers: let them decide. In private, not in front of people who know where they live and have every incentive to retaliate if they don’t vote the right way

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:19 am 18. Steve:

David S, employers cannot veto a decision by employees to form a union if they vote in a secret ballot. They can only ignore the vote if it is a public ballot. Get off this site if you are not going to tell the truth.

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:33 am 19. Hotpatch 6:

Hey posters, leave David S. alone – he is just following orders.

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:40 am 20. Sebastian Shaw:

Card Check is running into problems, despite Senator Specter’s predictable reversal; he alone is not enough to turn the tide in Congress. Why? 2010 is an election year. President Obama’s constant campaigning is running thin. And his dictatorial tendencies are not helping matters.

The same is true for Cap & Trade (Carbon Tax) & Universal Health Care. Obama is doing too much too fast & the bloom is off the dead rose.

Jun 19, 2009 - 12:10 pm 21. seven:

Unions for a good measure had a lot of cash 2 years ago. Enrollment was high. Now with layoffs caused by liberals and their massive spending for the election, the reports actually show many unions took on huge debt and will not have half as much to spend on the next 2 elections. Thank God that now with layoffs, may jobs held by union workers are going to India. IBM is the largest in number I know of. This may or may not help david S learn some truth. Chrysler lost a lot of union jobs. They are not back in business and building cars. Fiat plans on some production. Hope the unions learned from their 10,000 layoff there.
Every large public bnakruptcy costs union pension bondholders money. The unions also lost billions on the stock market slump which Obama can’t recover from. period.

Jun 19, 2009 - 12:36 pm 22. Phoenix48:

I respect Mr McKinnon and have seen him speak many times. But having viewed the posts here, especially Tammy and Blackwater, I don’t understand the knee jerk ‘NO UNION’ response.

First, while McKinnon is spot on that Union Officals will undoubtably ally with the Democrats, that hasn’t translated into delivering votes. Yes, California’s government union workers are the exception – they reliably vote collective self-interest – mostly because it is uniquely personal self-interest.

But Mr McKinnon is a professional – and he knows that Labor hasn’t delivered a voting block since Kennedy/Nixon. The Reagan Democrats (of which I am one) voted not as union stewards directed but personal self-interest.

Many Union members have continued to do so even if they never switched parties!

I’ve remained a registered Republican but I never fully converted to becoming an anti-unionist. If Ronald Reagan never demanded as much of me as a requirement of being a conservative in good standing why should I buy into that
now?

Trying to tie the current efforts of union organizing to ‘goon squads’ and ‘lazy workers’ is a red herring that has no connection to reality for todays worker who votes.

Check Card is going to pass. Democrats want it, have the votes, and Republicans don’t have the votes to stop them.

It has been two generations, if a generation is measured by 33 years, since Bobby Kennedy took on James Hoffa and the Union Movement in this country was devestated by its ties to organized crime. In the aftermath the so-called Labor Department became in reality the Anti-Labor Department – regulating union organizing to the point were – outside of government employee unions – unions are non-existent.

That is a big difference from the assertion that unions have been rendered obsolete because companies have adopted fair wages and practices to make them obsolete.

Conservatives need to pause, take a breath, and do a bit of self-reflection on this. There are a lot of conservatives like myself, who belonged to a union in the past, whose father and grandfather were life-long members, and who don’t share the kind of anti-union sentiments echoed by Tammy and Blackwater and others here.

In 1987, during the S&L Crises, I thought Unions were a good idea – FOR LATIN AMERICA, or China. They were an important part of our history, but they had long since served their purpose.

I don’t feel that way anymore. That was before the Tech bubble, and Enron, and 9/11, and now Bear Stearn/Lehman Bro’s….ect…ect…ect.

We had Welfare Reform as a great conservative victory during the interim as well. But we also caved on immigration invasion. For a lot of Americans today the debts that they accumulated with credit cards and personal credit lines REPLACED federal and state welfare – when unemployed. It less about personal irresponsibility than many conservatives are willing to conceed.

Nor do I share Tammy’s faith in the purity of the american entreprenure – because of what I have encounted over the past thirty years. I believe there are many MORE PEOPLE LIKE ME who as conservatives are angry and dismayed that a whole lot more corruption and law breaking is going on in the accounting depts of business large and small.

No I’ve never been at risk like my grandfather was as a 10 year old coal sorter. But the so-called social contract between employers and employees has been disintigrating for millions of americans and I feel like one of em. Sure there are ‘laws on the books.’ But you are on your own to hire a lawyer and seek redress.

I’m not lazy, but I am angry, and motivated…and conservative. For those under the age of 40 Unions have got to be something worth thinking about – because it’s been a long time since Jimmy Hoffa was blowing up buildings to score a contract.

A lot of social theft today is viewed as being done more like the Robber Barrons of the guilded age instead of ‘On the Waterfront’ in the 50’s. You can lable my dissent ’soft’ or RINO or whatever – but conservatives will have to adress this just as Reagan did.

Or sit on the back bench and whine.

Jun 19, 2009 - 1:54 pm 23. Moogie:

Here’s a terrific article that kills two birds with one stone: union AND nationalized health care.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/back_to_acorn_general_hospital.html

Jun 19, 2009 - 2:43 pm 24. myth buster:

You have no right to representation without the right to refuse representation. Employees have the right to collective bargaining, and that means they ought to have the right to form, replace or dissolve a union at will and without intimidation.

Jun 19, 2009 - 2:58 pm 25. Cybergeezer:

The unions and Obama are both thinking they are hustling the other. Having a lovers quarrel would benefit all, but is only a dream in this time of politics. Unions will always suck the life out of somebody! That’s their nature.

Jun 19, 2009 - 3:15 pm 26. mike:

Don- I can assure you that MDs will not be more productive in a national health system- we will unionize (at present it is illegal for MDs to unionize- that is why HMOs & Medicare could easily push us around). Almost all studies of MDs who become employed by hospitals etc show DECREASED productivity. Last week I worked 62 hrs (only b/c I had a slowish call night, it could easily have been over 70 hours)) and never got a break in my schedule to eat any meals- do you think I will not try to bargain via my union for lunch breaks etc? I am never paid extra for overtime, emergencies etc. Under any collective bargaining system I would get overtime & shift differential. Work rules would definitely arise & decrease my work rate.

Jun 19, 2009 - 4:01 pm 27. Concerned:

David S – you forgot to mention the mandatory arbitration that is also stuck in the EFC. All the union has to do is refuse to accept the company offer for 90 days and then a government arbitrator comes in and makes a decision. This could cause more companies to fold up a they are stuck with unsustainable contracts. All the union employees get is extravagant wages until the company goes bankrupt and they are back in the unemployment line.

EFCA is smoke and mirrors for total union domination of the labor market by government fiat that cannot be obtained at the ballot box.

Jun 19, 2009 - 6:26 pm 28. Tri Geek:

David S made a hit and run. I was waiting for him to respond……… No anwsers for the logicical responses he received.

Jun 19, 2009 - 6:58 pm 29. David Thomson:

“David S made a hit and run. I was waiting for him to respond……… No anwsers for the logicical responses he received.”

Please ignore David S. He always, without any exception, subscribes to the Democratic Party talking point of the the moment. He obviously sticks his wet finger into the air to see which way the wind is blowing.

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:37 pm 30. Don:

I guess Unions would be a good thing in this country if we really had any, instead what we have are criminal/political rackets that have only power and money (for the few) as their only real priorities. SO what we have is organizations that’s real lineage (and role models) come from the Nicky Scarfo, Jimmy Hoffa branch (look at SEIU/ACORN’s actions . . . can anybody say RICO?).

Don’t work too hard, you make everyone else look bad.

Jun 20, 2009 - 12:59 am 31. IP 727:

Check Card is going to pass. Democrats want it, have the votes, and Republicans don’t have the votes to stop them. ~~phoenix 48

If this piece of union crap does pass, the court will ultimately strike down the elimination of the secret ballot provision to prevent union goon intimidation. Every major piece of socialist bravo sierra in this country was pushed by organized labor, we don’t need to impower them further.Organized labor==organized coercion.

Jun 20, 2009 - 8:34 am 32. Phoenix48:

IP 727: – What if you are actually right? What if the court strikes down…’the elimination of the secret ballot…’ In what way has your ‘Organized labor==organized coercion’ been validated?

What is going to change is that for the first time since Hoffa disappeared in ‘75 the federal government is setting labor free to recruit & solicit in the private sector.

That drives people like you IP 727 off a cliff nutzo. It isn’t about a secrete ballot provision – it’s about old school collective bargining. You don’t want that option available to any american of any age and you’ll do anything to prevent it.

I guess a ‘run on the buck’ in the Mutual Market isn’t enough for you. Where were you on Sept 8th 2008? Talk to your average 25 year old with a six month old child about whether they’d go with a defined pension (like gov workers have) or the 401k where trillions go POOF over night?

Unions don’t need goons mimicing Nicky Scarfo or Jimmy Hoffa to recruit. From Enron to AIG to BOA to ….you name it … has already plowed the field.

and you know it. and it drives you bat-*&^! crazy. Check Card isn’t about the sanctity of the secrete ballot. It’s about Labor getting off federal government probation.

Because the new mafia is Big Business not Big Labor.

Jun 20, 2009 - 9:31 am 33. IP 727:

What is going to change is that for the first time since Hoffa disappeared in ‘75 the federal government is setting labor free to recruit & solicit in the private sector.~~phoenix 48

I don’t know which planet you live on genius, but the taft hartly act has allowed “recruiting & soliciting” from the day it passed.

“recruit & solicit”_== sign up or have your tires slashed.

The UAW really helped their membership.same as PATCO helped theirs. Bring the unions under the anti trust laws just like any other monopoly would be.

Jun 20, 2009 - 12:57 pm 34. David S:

@3. OhReallyQ2009:

“There’s another unspoken alternative – businesses being shut down or moved overseas.”

As if businesses have not been moving overseas for the last thirty years? Gimme a break. Some businesses will possibly move – but on balance unions improve the average living standard of working Americans.

@4. David B:

“What galls me about the proposed EFCA is the removal of the secret ballot. If the unions are so wanted and needed by employees what purpose does it serve to deny that right? Let people freely choose what they want without threats of coercion or repercussion.”

There is no “removal” of the secret ballot. Just the restoration of card check as an alternative.

“Oh yeah, I’m not too hot about the government being able to dictate employment contracts either.”

The alternative is the continued abuse of labor by big business. I prefer timely arbitration.

@5. IP 727:

“The secret ballot is sacrosanct in this country davie boy, and the courts would smack this union good crapola down in a new york second.”

Apparently you don’t understand the history of labor law in the USA. I don’t have the time to engage in remedial education. There is approximately zero chance that EFCA would be struck down by any court.

6. antaine:

“It’s possible for a good thing to turn parasitic and detrimental if it gets too large or powerful. After looking at the auto industry (and others), there can be no question that unions have reached that tipping point.”

I think you grossly overstate the impact of unions on the incompetence of management in the auto industry (and others). To claim that unions are too large or powerful when membership is at historic lows is rather disingenuous.

@7. blotto:

“What happens when the company closes because the owner cannot make payroll??”

If you can show me such a case, I would be interested to learn more. I don’t think any employee union has incentive to run the employer out of business. Quite the opposite – this is an adversarial relationship that, by its very nature, is also cooperative. Mutual dependency is a pretty good motivator.

@8. Fernando:

“Only the right of voting without being intimidated is being removed and we need that right back!!”

If you think that workers are currently enjoying a right to vote without being intimidated, you have not explored the current state of anti-labor practice in the workplace. New laws had to be passed in my state (Oregon) recently to prevent mandatory political indoctrination of employees, specifically in response to employer intimidation regarding organizing.

Study the case of Wal-mart, if you have any question about the lengths to which a corporation will go, within and outside the law, to abuse and frustrate collective bargaining.

@15. tammy:

If you did fire people for organizing, I expect you would lose your business, or a large chunk of cash. You can’t fire people for exercising their rights. Especially when you’ve publicly indicated a willingness to do so.

“Unions are not needed like they once were. We have laws to protect workers now. If you don’t like your job, quit! Shut-up and get another job, or better yet, try starting your own company and see how easy it is.”

You admit that unions serve a purpose, but somehow you imagine that we now live in a world where that purpose is obsolete, and violations of workers rights and safety are simply an occasion to “shut up and get another job”, rather than enforce the laws on the books, or bargain for improvements in working conditions.

@17. Blackwell:

“….the issue is maintaining employee choice: a secret ballot does quite well for that.”

Why should an employer be able to force an election after a majority of employees approve a union? There is no reason I can see for requiring the delay and expense of an election other than employee intimidation on the part of the employer.

@18. Steve:

“David S, employers cannot veto a decision by employees to form a union if they vote in a secret ballot. They can only ignore the vote if it is a public ballot. Get off this site if you are not going to tell the truth.”

They can ignore it to the extent that they can negotiate in poor faith indefinitely. Without mandatory arbitration even a secret ballot election can be effectively vetoed.

@19. Hotpatch 6:

“Hey posters, leave David S. alone – he is just following orders.”

Nobody is giving me orders, but it is obvious that I struck a nerve here.

@27. Concerned:

” – you forgot to mention the mandatory arbitration that is also stuck in the EFC. All the union has to do is refuse to accept the company offer for 90 days and then a government arbitrator comes in and makes a decision. This could cause more companies to fold up a they are stuck with unsustainable contracts.”

There is no reason to believe EFCA will cause companies to fold up. It is more likely that the result will be workers with better wages and benefits, superior working conditions, and a right to organize that is no subject to management review. Union employees have no incentive to harm their employer – only to prevent harm to themselves.

@32. Phoenix48:

“… the new mafia is Big Business not Big Labor.”

Sad but true. Although I am sure that some on this board would rather point the finger at government, it has been unrestrained corporatism that has been the biggest danger to our Republic, and caused the most egregious harm.

Peace.

DS

Jun 20, 2009 - 4:36 pm 35. IP 727:

Apparently you don’t understand the history of labor law in the USA. I don’t have the time to engage in remedial education. There is approximately zero chance that EFCA would be struck down by any court.~~david s

Try some “remedial” education on the constitution sometime genius.The secret ballot is part and parcel to a free society and free association, something you lefties care nothing about.

Jun 20, 2009 - 7:23 pm 36. Blackwell:

David S: I do love your idealism, but the real world is called “real” because people in it know what really happens.

The employer gets to force a validating election if at all because anyone that has ever had contact with a union organizer knows what subtle coercion means. Voting for a union is not done by secret ballot until the employer forces and election. That is the time people get to vote in secret.

You can see full blown coercion when union goons slash tires and attack workers who dare to work when the union calls a strike–”how dare they work when we say no one will?” If you want to see more beneficient union effort on behalf of employees, be there when someone at home tells an organizer “No, I don’t want to join a union.”

Whatever the shortcomings of the current system, eliminating the secret ballot is not going to improve them.

Peace to you too.

Jun 21, 2009 - 6:27 pm 37. mld678:

Friends of the U.S. Chamber – Protect private ballots and American jobs! Anyone can fight for protection and freedom and support the Chamber’s efforts by signing the petition to advance a positive agenda for American workers. Go to http://www.friendsoftheuschamber.com/takeaction

Jun 22, 2009 - 2:37 pm

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