Pajamas Media

61 Comments

Alice Roddy:

Thanks for this article. Please continue to keep PJM readers informed.
Apparently the judge and CPS in this case don’t know history. In the early to mid 20th century removal of children from homes that didn’t meet middle class standards proved disastrous for the children. During WWII children sent from their families in London to the relative safety of the country suffered psychologically compared with those who stayed (and survived).
Who will hold the state accountable for the damage it is doing?

Apr 26, 2008 - 7:38 am Michele Samuelson:

Thanks for this - I agree completely.

Apr 26, 2008 - 10:16 am Letalis Maximus, Esq.:

The Official Mission Statement of the State Courts of Texas has long been, and apparently continues to be: “Due Process? Why bother?”

Will somebody *please* put a tent over this circus?

Apr 26, 2008 - 10:17 am Kenneth:

I haven’t been reading the court transcripts, but my understanding from news reports is that the women have been un-cooperative in identifying the parents of children, or at least giving many conflicting accounts. While most people should feel sympathy for any child separated from its mother, in this case there is a high likelihood that the mothers are accomplices to crimes committed against children. I consider every child in this sect to be at risk and the court is acting appropriately. Sometimes due process takes longer - obviously this situation can’t continue for much longer.

Apr 26, 2008 - 10:38 am Brickle:

During WWII children sent from their families in London to the relative safety of the country suffered psychologically compared with those who stayed (and survived).

What about the children that didn’t survive?

The Texas authorities saw that there was child rape occurring daily, with the support and approval of the children’s mothers.

If that was the situation is a small group home - say, one with 5 men, 20 women and 40 girls, would you support removing the removal of the kids then?

What about 1 man, 2 women and 6 girls? Or once the man is removed, are the moms allowed to continue pimping out their daughters?

The Texas authorities intervened and stopped the immediate harm. Now they can sort out what should be done. If a mom has approved of or participated in her 14 year old daughter being raped, she should not have custody of that or any other child. That’s the standard we have for everyone else, the FLDS should be no different.

Apr 26, 2008 - 10:52 am TBlakely:

Sigh, proof anybody? We have seen authorities before use sketchy even fraudulent evidence to go after ‘undesirable’ groups. IF there is evidence of such behavior, then yes go after the perps but do it in such away as to minimize trauma on innocents. However is this case its screw due process, guilty until proven innocent and besides they are a bunch of freaks anyway so who cares. A whole lot of people seem real comfortable with that approach. They chant ‘it’s for the children’ while seemingly oblivious that the current approach is going to traumatize all the children of this sect.

Apr 26, 2008 - 11:14 am Dave S.:

They’re growing up being taught that it’s just fine for fifty year old men to marry thirteen year old girls and knock them up–traumatization has been underway for quite some time.

Apr 26, 2008 - 11:30 am Brian:

Screw due process and parental rights. The right to the assumption of innocence is overrated. The children were in obvious danger. The lack of cooperation demonstrated by the mothers in identifying those thought to be abusing the children is more than enough cause to remove the children from a dangerous situation where they are either victim to or witness to a pattern of behavior that condones and promulgates the crimes as normal.

By the way, when is the government going to start their investigations and removal of children from all the families in urban housing projects within known gang territories? Such communities meet all the same standards of lack of cooperation with law enforcement, and subjecting children to an environment where some become victims while others are taught the worldview that such behavior is the norm.

Texas has mishandled this situation, and unless they are holding back a smoking gun that can indict the whole community is likely to lose on a technicality and may have exposed the state to a lawsuit that will only strengthen the “cult” they are seeking to take down.

I have no sympathy for anyone that may be abusing kids, however, I also have a deep respect for the rule of law. Our nation was founded by citizens that were denied due process and equal treatment under the law. I hope that Texas has not cut any corners legally, and if they have I hope that those responsible are fired , fined, and if criminally liable jailed for the persecution of the community and the attempt to erode the burden of proof needed by the state to undermine parents authority and responsibilities for their children.

Apr 26, 2008 - 11:40 am griefer:

Two words Tblakely.
DNA testing.

that is why the outcome will be diifferent from 1953.
the community is being prosecuted as a unit because it committed crimes as a unit.
every adult there is a perpetrator, an accomplice, or an enabler.
they knew collectively that crimes were being committed.
Not a soul reported the crimes.

Obfustication of birth records, lying, secretive behavior, moving women and children back and forth from canada to the US.
30 young mothers lied to authorities and said they were over 18.
they are included with OTHER children now.

Apr 26, 2008 - 11:49 am griefer:

consider this Dawn.

Apr 26, 2008 - 12:02 pm Jeff Medcalf:

There is an awful lot of “well, they had it coming to them” feeling here, absent any evidence that they did in fact do anything wrong. If they did break the law, then fine, but that’s what due process is for: determining if they broke the law before punishing them. Now, rest assured that if you guys who think that this is all just fine, and trust the state entirely on this (somehow, despite all the evidence of history), are some day in the position of having the state take your children and presume you guilty without any due process, I will still speak up for your rights. However, you have lost any moral right to complain on your own behalf at that point. The protections and freedoms we enjoy cover us all, or they cover none of us. First they came for the Jews, and all that.

Apr 26, 2008 - 12:22 pm platypus:

Doesn’t federal law treat all females who give birth as head-of-household? Assuming I’m correct on that point, I am certain that the feds then require state law to be aligned as a consequence of IV-D grant programs.

That would mean that the fact that the mothers were under 16 does not mean they were minors. Remember, it is legal for underage mothers to get an abortion without parental notification. Getting pregnant is an emancipating act.

So I say that under eighteen means little in the legal sense. If they are mothers, they are emancipated (for the most part),

Apr 26, 2008 - 12:34 pm platypus:

Correction to my previous post:

Unmarried mothers = head-of-household

Apr 26, 2008 - 12:36 pm griefer:

I have one question for you Dawn.
Are there any, ANY fertile females at all from the FLDS compound that are over the age of puberty that are NOT pregnant or the mothers of children?

if the answer is no, then none of those children are safe with their mothers.
sorry.
the children and the women are chattel.

Apr 26, 2008 - 12:51 pm griefer:

no Jeff Medcalf
first they came for the children.

Apr 26, 2008 - 12:53 pm spudmom:

This is a classic example of religious beliefs vs government regulation. If the sect believes that that once girls hit puberty that they are better off having babies with a mature man who can support them instead of a pimply teenager who will run at the earliest opportunity, they can argue the point. But unless they want to take the issue of adult sex with minors under the sanctity of a ’spiritual’ marriage to the Supreme Court (the way the LDS church did with anti-polygamy laws, and then ceased the practice when they lost) they need to follow the law where they are living. I am surprised NAMBLA isn’t filing amicus briefs.

I wonder what would have happened if instead of an FLDS compound, the (false?) phone call came from someone who lived in Islamic retreat. After all, isn’t arranged marriage for children and polygamy part of their culture, too? Do you think they would have been raided with SWAT teams and had all the children removed, or would they have rounded up the men instead?

Apr 26, 2008 - 1:19 pm TBlakely:

<>

Lol, and your proof? I’m sorry I missed out on the trials and convictions of these people in this compound. When did they happen? Oh, wait they are a bunch of religious freaks so no convictions are required before condemnation.

Apr 26, 2008 - 1:28 pm Ten:

One of the signs of the deterioration of this formerly constitutional republic is the mob-rule replacement of prior rights — presumption of innocence, due process, right to liberty and property, right to parent — with holy moral law.

Texas is stone cold guilty.

In fact, Texas policy concerning age of consent and “underage” pregnancy — a total conflict of logic, what with all of Texas’s urban centers experiencing hundreds and thousands of incidences of unprosecuted teen pregnancies — I’m told was itself enacted specifically to oppress religious sects.

Ergo, Texas has willingly and consciously replaced prior personal right with the rule of state moral/political law, and like all states and the federal State, has done so by overruling formerly sacred constitutional rights with the law-by-accord, majority, special interest, or what have you.

How many of you lambasting these people are deeply familiar with the process of law being made?

Of course the cries immediately go up of there being supreme courts to see to the constitutionality of law. Except that with millions of laws on the books across 50 individual states, this is an obvious fallacy of contemporary legal principle and procedure.

Oh, and the other sign of a deterioration of a constitutional republic of personal rights and limits on the State? The very moralizing that goes on, at least as often by moral “conservatives” as by typical big-government secular liberals, to preconvict fellow citizens for no proved crime other than violating conventional wisdom and political correctness, even assuming eventual legal convictions might be constitutional in their justice and procedure.

Considering the trainwreck of juvenile dysfunction churned out daily by the State’s educational system, operating as a great, amoral force hostile to the private sector’s rights, the gross inconsistency that precondemns this church group should give those condemning it pause. Naturally, it will not.

We should at least accord one right, that being the right to a presumption of innocence. And that’s even before we start in on the very real subjective argument that the state just committed gross and willful child abuse here. We’ll pre-convict this church group; why won’t we pre-convict Texas CPS?

As far as I am concerned, Texas CPS must be prosecuted for gross and willful violations of guaranteed personal freedoms and the Texas legislature must be made to strike down laws made to impair said rights. Given the presumption of those certain, enumerated, constitutional rights, that notion is as least as morally and justly sound as hauling hundreds of unconvicted souls off to be ruined in the slave camps of a foster care system run by the same State.

Apr 26, 2008 - 1:31 pm TBlakely:

Anyone else notice the not-so-subtle whiff of misogyny here? The FLDS women are all victims/abusers. The assumption being that no ‘normal/sane’ women would choose that lifestyle. So if it’s a given that none of the FLDS women are ‘competent,’ then the wholesale round up and kidnapping of their children can be rationalized away.

Apr 26, 2008 - 1:39 pm Denny, Alaska:

Hey, everyone: let’s call a moratorium on the moral pronouncements.

What does Texas law say about rape? What is the legal age of consent? At what age are women/men legally allowed to get married? Can a person be married concurrently to more than one person?

Birth certificates? Marriage licenses? Let’s see ‘em.

Get over the “indignation” being expressed over the Texas foster care system. Go by the law, period.

Apr 26, 2008 - 3:08 pm griefer:

legal age for marriage with parental consent–16
age of consent–17

Apr 26, 2008 - 3:31 pm griefer:

and you are right….i am repulsed by those women.
How could you give your 13 or 14 yearold daughter to be the plural “spiritual wife” of a much older man?
How could you let the FLDS patriarchydaddies put your young son out on the streets in some big city?

those women are like aliens to me.

Apr 26, 2008 - 3:36 pm Soothsayer:

There has been NO evidence of any physical abuse of these children, NONE. The ONLY facts that have been presented are that some teenage females are pregnant, or have kids. The ages of these females have not been definitively given. In Texas, if these teenagers are under 16 years old, then this could be statutory rape. Also, this sect actively practiced polygamy and this is also illegal. SO, as it currently sits there could be charges against some of the men for statutory rape and/or polygamy. BTW, these charges are difficult to prosecute. There is simply NO evidence given to justify the wholesale stripping of infants and young children from their mothers. This was kidnapping, Texas-style and I can only hope the media will wake up to what an atrocity has been committed by the government and start covering this by asking some tough questions. Why,oh why did the Texas Rangers have to go in at all? Why couldn’t the local law enforcement back up CPS and do on-site interviews? Or do some type of orderly exams and interviews off-site on a small scale? What makes any of the above fortune tellers think that these women, “brainwashed” as they may be, do not love their children with every fiber in their bodies? Taking a nursing, 9 month old, well-bonded human being away FROM THE ONLY THING IT HAS KNOW SINCE BIRTH is torture and deserves a special place down under for this judge. Simply think of the trauma these young children are going thru! A five year old little girl pulled from her crying mother’s arms, separated from her brothers and sisters, taken from all she has ever known, placed in a stranger’s home who is of a different faith. C’mon, people! This is SIMPLY AN OUTRAGE!!

Apr 26, 2008 - 3:54 pm RAH:

I have problems with the logic here. Why should anyone be upset that in this commune that maternity might be questioned? Freedom of religion and by inference lifestyle is celebrated in America. The reason for the Puritans that immigrated was that they wanted to live the way their religion instructed. That is a lifestyle. In many inner cities communities and among blacks illegitimacy is 70%. Many children do not know who is their father and it could be several different males. So questionable paternity is accepted by society and CPS does not involve themselves in those cases. Also underage pregnancy is not uncommon. Why else have school pushed for allowing dispensation of condoms to middle and some elementary schools?

So we have a communal lifestyle and in this lifestyle women make up the family unit and share child raising duties. Certainly seems to be a method for ensuring that children get good care from loving adults. Since the women share child raising there is a question on the maternity of the children. If society does not care about paternity, why should it care about maternity? The whole emphasis is that the children get a strong family unit and have caring adults. If people here are upset with that idea, then are they upset with 2 gay men raising a child, or 2 gay women raising a child? It is conceivable that among gay women that the maternity may not be told to the offspring. The children could even be adopted or from donor eggs so there is no biological maternity. Society has already agreed that that is acceptable. Why not in this case?

The main offense is the assumed underage age sex of teenagers to older men. This violates age of consent and is statutory rape. How many teenagers that are under 16 get pregnant by a male over 21 in this country? So we prosecute every one? I doubt it. Generally the only time this becomes an issue is when the girl cries forcible rape.

Now for the real issue, this is a cult. They like to live separate. The limit outside influences and they abide to very old tenets of male dominance and female submission. For Christ sakes look at the outfits!! They are very modest and the style is exact. No individuality, It is all conformist. They are old fashion. The women certainly seem to like it and the rest of humanity recoils because we don’t like conformity, or female submission or the idea that women can be happier living with this lifestyle. They are different and it offends our sense of normality. So it must be condemned.

Our country was founded on the idea that people can live different ways if they want. But the people who scream for the law and prison to be thrown at these people seem to missing that our society has allowed isolationists cults from the beginning. The Amish has been here since the colonies started and they live in similar styles. Now they do have distinct parents and the do not marry before the age of consent. But all the girls are married. There are no or little illegitimacy. They dress all the same with conformity. They limit outside modernity. They have a more old fashion gender roles.

I read the CPS testimony and I was struck on how CPS seemed to think it was abuse that girls are taught to get married and have lots of children. They encourage child bearing at younger ages when the girls are more fertile and capable of child bearing. I do not think CPS has the authority to break up families because they do not like the religious lifestyle on encouraging youthful marriages and multiple children.

Also if CPS suspected abuse why did they come in at 9 pm instead of morning when more children would be up? This smack of SWAT like tactics. If you read the testimony the CPS supervisor said that they left at 3 am after waking up lots of families after being there 6 hrs. There was no suspicion of imminent death or torture to justify a late raid.

If CPS was making a reasonable investigation, they should have made arrangements to meet the commune and arrange to speak with the young mothers and try to determine the ages at marriage and whether their male partners were old enough to claim statutory rape. Ask those women if they were forced into marriage with old men? If they objected to be expected to bed old men?

I got the impression after reading the CPS supervisor testimony, that she was horrified at this conformist lifestyle and the women who married young and had lots of children, unlike what modern society teaches. Their ideas and lifestyle offended her personal sense of what is normal, so she yanked all the children, since children should never be brought up to a paternalistic doctrine. This was so anti feminist.

I have a real problem with someone who uses or abuses their authority of law to destroy families, tear nursing babies from the breast, just because she thinks it is wrong and violates her feminists’ beliefs. I do not believe that justice is served when the government subjects children to abuse like separating nursing infants and toddlers from their mothers in order to save the child from nonexistent abuse. There was no evidence of physical abuse to these young children according to her testimony. The broken bones were normal childhood injuries. This is the classic throwing the baby out with the bathwater in order to save the baby from drowning.

The false call that caused the destruction of hundreds of families is problematical. They had a duty to investigate but they went overboard.

Texas law when this commune started had marriage at 14 allowed with parental consent and 16 without consent. There are many states with those laws. Texas law has changed to 16 for marriage with or without consent, I believe a few years back. So for mothers who had married at 14, the fathers would not be liable for statutory rape a few years ago.

Now these marriages may be irregular since there were not civilly recorded but they still may be legal. Common law marriage is still on the books.

I do not like this commune or their beliefs systems, but what I like or not is immaterial. The question is did CPS abuse their authority or overstep their authority? If the criminal behavior is statutory rape, then why does not CPS investigate every case of teenage pregnancy to see if the father was old enough to be statutory rape? There are enough girls in the cities that qualify.

I predict that there will be a few convictions of the older males and a lot of civil rights cases that Texas will pay damages.

Apogee,
Per your post 38. I agree that some sort of mechanism to allow members who wish to would be needed. I do not know enough about the cult to know if the excess male population can communicate and create an escape mechanism. This cult probably will have to have some sort of court order to prevent the statutory rape to be doctrinal and that the cult will have to develop a relief mechanism for members to choose to leave or stay. The Amish did have to sort that out on various court decisions in the past.

My main point was that CPS seemed to more bothered by the thinking of the females that they liked it that way. Our system of dysfunctional families and female liberalism may not be the best way for our civilization a hundred years from now. I certainly would revolt in the FLDS system and my son has been a rebel from the time he was a year old is similar. Some personality types would naturally revolt even if they were female.

I am grateful that the cult decided against resisting the raid with force. This way the cult will probably survive and eventually the mothers will get their children. I expect that the excesses of CPS may bring some reforms and FLDS women on abridgment of rights will win suits. Eventually a system of visits to ensure the lack of coercion on young females and the ability to resist the expectation they have to bed old men will happen. I may not like this cult but a diversity of systems is what America is about.

However I have been dismayed at the viscous tone of some commenters that all these people are horrible and deserve the worst. I have tried to show worse events happen in the cities with the prevalence of young unwed motherhood and the multiple fathers that is common. The young females in inner cities are also victims of statutory rape with their own connivance. Young females are pushing to achieve adult sexuality at younger and younger ages and often want to get pregnant even if there is no support structure from the father or family. This cult certainly provided the support structure.

The foster care system is rife with abuse. The percentage of children that suffer sexual abuse is very high. I sometimes think that some children would be better off with original families than in the foster system. Of course there are always those few horrible examples of parents killing their children. This cult did not seem to have evidence of physical just a social pressure to marry and have children young.
This cult may be weird but if the people want to live that way and bring their children up with those beliefs that is their right. But any CPS raid that takes over 400 children is wrong. That simply goes against our system of justice. I am afraid that CPS will attempt to brainwash these children with the trauma of being separated from their parents and being isolated in a strange homes and strange ways in order to get the children to testify. Similar to past sexual abuse scandals that Janet Reno did in Florida and happened in Washington or Oregon state where half the town was jailed and the sheriff held one girl in a insane e ward and had her drugged to elicit testimony.

Apr 26, 2008 - 4:08 pm Louise Cate:

WHY were all of the children and mothers forced to leave their homes in a fundamentalist compound in Texas, just because of a phone call by one women pretending to be an abused FLDS teenager? What was the rush? Authorities have known for generations about the polygamist’s activities in the southwest, including the practice of young girls being forced to marry older men. Why, until now, have authorities winked and looked the other way instead of implementing consistent investigation and prosecution of illegal acts? Why didn’t the authorities arrest the man the girl claimed abused her and leave the rest of the women and children at peace in their homes, while the authorities sorted things out? I don’t believe we know the whole story, and I don’t think we’ll like it when we learn the whole story.

Who made the decision to arrest the women and children who were either innocent of any crime or victims of a crime? What law gives anyone the authority to arrest victims and/or potential victims? Why didn’t they just assign guards to protect the mothers and children in their own homes, if they thought they were in some danger? And for heavens sake, what kind of nut separates mothers from nursing babies? Talk about child abuse!

Will US government officials authorize raiding any of the many Muslim compounds scattered around the USA, even if some girl calls in and claims her husband is abusing her, or if officials claim they get such a call? After all some Muslims practice polygamy and force young girls to marry old men. Neighbors who have objected to the activities at nearby Muslim compounds throughout the US should now know they can have any girl call authorities and claim she is in the compound, underage and being abused, then authorities might actually consider checking out the compound.

Will a raid actually be made against a Muslim compound in the US at this time, even if it contained men abusing underage wives? No, such a raid would be politically incorrect and besides Muslims might kill whoever authorized and carried out the raid. But things may change.

If authorities are really worried about women who are having children who are at risk for neglect and abuse, then check out the urban areas where 70% of the African American babies are illigitimate. Will authorities arrest and separate these mothers from their babies and children and do DNA tests on them, as well and interview the girls to see if they were willing partners in the sexual act that produced the child? Will they prosecute any man who forced a girl to have sex?

The possibilities are endless and fascinating!

Apr 26, 2008 - 4:17 pm Jacques:

To the Atheist all religions look strange and funny!

Where are all of the cries to take away the children of Roman Catholic’s because their parent(s) could be exposing them to pedophile priests? Where are all the cries to take away the Muslim children who are allowed to be raised in families where “Honor Killings” are a part of every day life, and where being born a female is an automatic ticket to second class status? Where are the cries to take away all of the children born to teenagers in the slums of the country? Where is the prosecution of those who chose to live in a lifestyle that resembles plural marriage, when was the last “Threesome, Orgy, Swingers Group, or Gang Bang” prosecuted? Why is one ok and the other is not? Why if some 16 year old chooses to show her “Giblets” all over the internet via cell phone pics is ok but it is not ok for the same 16 year old to have sex with someone who is older then her?

The argument that they are being brainwashed is simply untrue, and the statement that they are being forced has still been unproven. All religions can be said to brainwash children, as well as parents who teach their children by example and action. Do we arrest the parents of the child who engages in sex at age 13 or 14? Is this not the same abuse, should not those children be removed following the same premise? On another note, would not any neighborhood in that a 13 or 14 year old became pregnant fall under the same premise, as it takes a village to raise a child, would not any parent who allowed or even encouraged their child to knowingly befriend any child who is abused, or even suspects abuse fall under the premise that they are a knowing accomplice to the abuse?

The law should be agnostic, and justice should be blind. Justice has clearly been sidelined for conjuncture and rumor. I for one fear for my rights, as who knows what will be next on the list, how long until it is people who drive trucks, or drink Budweiser, who maybe are bitter, and cling to a religion and a gun.

Apr 26, 2008 - 4:59 pm griefer:

it was determined to be institutionalized child abuse by a legally appointed judge.
the judge determined that the children were not safe.
this is America and that is the Law.
if child abuse, child molestation, and child rape are part of your “religion” you had better fuckin emmigrate.
the FLDS has compounds in canada and mexico.
let the FLDS patriarchydaddies go abuse children there.

Apr 26, 2008 - 5:42 pm mylai:

Award: Denny. For most relevant comment.

“Hey, everyone: let’s call a moratorium on the moral pronouncements.

What does Texas law say about rape? What is the legal age of consent? At what age are women/men legally allowed to get married? Can a person be married concurrently to more than one person?

Birth certificates? Marriage licenses? Let’s see ‘em.

Get over the “indignation” being expressed over the Texas foster care system. Go by the law, period.”

Good Job Denny

Apr 26, 2008 - 6:13 pm mylai:

Jaques,

you’re an idiot.

#1. ALL priests are not pedophiles. ALL men at that imbecilic inbred community Yearning For Zion ARE polygamists. AND all girls of said imbecilic inbred community are groomed to marry old farts starting from puberity and have sex for the production of more inbredanywhere from 11 years of age to 14.

#2. Unless you know something the rest of us don’t know, HONOR KILLINGS are NOT a right of ANYONE including muslims in the USA and the freaks that commit such murder will find THAT out very quickly when brought to justice. They can kill all the women they want in their own backward countries - not when they come here.

#3. threesomes, swingers and all alternative lifestyle morons USUALLY consist of ADULTS and not 14 year olds. Who gives a damn what they do within their marriages. In state of texas a 16 year old girl can only marry with the consent of her parents - no exceptions.

#4 o m g, you are an idiot beyond compare. The internets cannot knock-up a 16 yr old showing off her giblets. Only SPERM from a penis will, however. Therein, Jacques, is the difference.

The rest of your comment defies belief, but hey, it’s the intranets.

Apr 26, 2008 - 7:14 pm Ten:

it was determined to be institutionalized child abuse by a legally appointed judge.

Rubbish. 400+ kids are not “determined” by a judicial fiat to be at risk.

the judge determined that the children were not safe.

Rubbish. There’s zero evidence to support this crazy assertion across those 400+ kids in a State known to be hostile to rights and religions it doesn’t cotton to.

this is America and that is the Law.

Rubbish. This is America and there is a due process and a presumption of innocence and a right to not be absorbed and abused by the State.

if child abuse, child molestation, and child rape are part of your “religion” you had better fuckin emmigrate.

Do you mean the inner city? How ironic. I’d suggest that the moral totalitarians and guilt presumers and personal rights violators are the ones who should reexamine their citizenship.

Apr 26, 2008 - 7:37 pm Alice Roddy:

Let’s not forget that the point of Dawn Friedman’s piece is to discuss the well being of small and innocent children.
Put yourself in the place of a five year old. What do you feel now? Happiness to be away from the only home they’ve ever known or grief at the loss of your mother’s love and care? the loss of all the is familiar and safe?
Others have sinned but they are being punished with banishment.
All too frequently when things go wrong, little kids blame themselves, think that they did something wrong. I envision these children as frightened, immensely lonely, and mortified.
The state shouldn’t remove children from their homes and families unless it is certain it has something better to offer. These children have lost everything that was good about their homes. Does what they gain compensate for their loss?
As Ms. Friedman wrote, they could have been kept in their home safely under the supervision of CPS.
Whatever the fate of the responsible adults, children are being made to suffer.

Apr 26, 2008 - 7:52 pm griefer:

BTW, these charges are difficult to prosecute.

soothsayer
two words for u.

DNA testing.

Apr 26, 2008 - 8:05 pm sol vason:

The FLDS is in the news because it supports polygamy. They have not found the “girl” whose complaint launched this crusade against polygamy and they never will because she never existed.

Nor can they produce a single girl who is both under 16 AND currently pregnant. Their case is a web of lies.

Some one made up these accusations in order to launch the crusade. Who? Follow the money. The divorce lawyers did it.

Today when a man gets tired of his wife, he and she hire lawyers who get lots of money to arrange: he gives her his old house, lets her raise the children, and he pays for everything. Then he is legally free to marry a new woman, buy a new house and father new children. He can repeat this process as many time as he likes - but usually stops when he has four wives.

In the FLDS when a man gets tired of his wife, he gives her his old house, lets her raise the children, and he pays for everything. Then he marries a new woman, builds a new house and fathers new children. He can repeat this process as many time as he likes - but usually stops when he has four wives.

The result is exactly the same in both cases EXCEPT THE LAWYERS GET NO MONEY. This is why judges and prosecuters get hyper.

Legalizing polygamy could end divorce as we know it. In fact no one might get divorced. And an entire class of lawyers, process servers, constables, psychiatrists, social workers, consultants, personal trainers and repo men would become unemployed.

Apr 26, 2008 - 8:10 pm souix city sue:

ditto

Apr 26, 2008 - 8:14 pm griefer:

Ten
praps u should emmigrate.

Apr 26, 2008 - 8:34 pm not obama plz:

Polygamy would end divorce? He pays for everything? Do you realize that the texas taxpayers foot a lot of the bill for polygamists kids in the form of welfare and that YFZ gets tax-exemption because it’s of its religious status?

My suggestion would be if a man can’t afford to foot the bill for the children he had with his first wife, he should forfeit all right s to have any more children. Now THAT’ll save THE REST OF US who are quite content with one wife from paying for the selfish gratification of the men whose only goal in life is to spread his seed far and wide with little or no responsibility.

How do you like them economic apples?

Apr 26, 2008 - 8:47 pm griefer:

look..this what you apologists aren’t getting.
Those women and children were chattel.

the women were breeders….that was their only function.

Apr 27, 2008 - 7:05 am Ten:

praps u should emmigrate.

If we continue down the socialist path we are, griefer, complete with family law policies even the Russians abandoned the better part of a century ago (reread sol vason’s comment, for it is utterly true) then I shall.

People like you and not obama plz will have replaced rights with moral, statist policy fiat and a rule by law, not a rule of state-limiting constitutional law.

Apr 27, 2008 - 7:24 am not obama plz:

Ten,

You’re an idiot.

When there is probable cause that one child is being abused then ALL the children are then thought of as being abused.

Law enforcement doesn’t leave the siblings of an abused kid in the home of a suspected abuser, no, they take ALL the kids out because if they are abusing ONE kid they are probably abusing all of them.

Since all these polygamists freaks live in such secrecy (and why is that-what have they to hide?) and no one knows whose kid is whose since they all live as one big incestuous inbred family, then the Sherrif was absolutely right to take all the children.

This is NOT a normal situation. America is not this one big freakin cluster-fk of an inbred community, that being the case, less-than-normal is the only way to proceed. So stop being so thoroughly stupid.

Apr 27, 2008 - 10:13 am Ten:

Not exactly an idiot, not obama plz. Quite the contrary.

What you promote is nothing less than religious prosecution. Look at what you said: “Not normal” to you constitutes a group needing eradication bt State. “Probably” ends reasonable suspicion. Presumption of guilt — your “secrecy” canard — replaces inalienable rights. Legal, procedural habit and bad state policy trump everything.

Your entire comment and your entire tone is decidedly anti-constitutional. You’ve done precisely what I warned against earlier. You are a statist.

You’ve replaced rights with fiat. You’ve made your fellows subject to your majority whim. You’ve replaced a constitutional republic of prior rights with a mob by morally subjective laws. You, being a moralist, have short-circuited the Bill of Rights with an effective religion of State.

The fact you cannot grasp that and the fact I’ve had to correct you on it tends to put the idiot shoe on the other foot.

Apr 27, 2008 - 11:48 am not obama plz:

Noo, my entire comment is based on the premise that child abuse was known by a lot of people to be taking place - under the secrecy and idea of religious freedom. Where in this country should sex with minors just be “ok” according to some guy (claiming himself a prophet) be above that child’s, or woman’s or man’s constitutional right NOT to be abused?

The precedence of “well all the woman have been taught one way therefore dont know the measure of their constitutional rights or even that they are being abused”, is NOT a defense. It is only further abuse. And abuse allowed to take place in the name of religious freedom.

Should the morals that protect children from sex with adults be forfeited due to the sole discretion of adults who decide to form a religion? Or do you not see the difference in the emotional maturity and developement, as do pervailing socialogists, physchologists, et al in the medical field between a 14 girl and 50 year old men?

We already have a culture of the sexual slavery of minors in countries throughout the world that operate without the veil of religion. Why should the veil of religion protect that which would be criminal behaviour otherwise.

I think this case really opens wide the long standing tradition of protecting abusers who commit abuse on anyone from minors, to women, to other men under such a religious veil, to be looked at closely and perhaps even the throwing out such protection when it is a direct affront to the constitutional concept…”your freedom to practice whatever the hell you want ends where it directly affects my freedom of self-determination” i.e., not being forced to marry an old fart when i am 13 and would rather have a childhood than be a breeder.

Get it?
Probably not.

Apr 27, 2008 - 12:18 pm Charles Vairin:

How many Muslims in this country have more than one wife and who force their daughters into relationships with older men?

Apr 27, 2008 - 1:23 pm Ten:

Your entire point, NOP, seems to hang on the dual pillars of contemporary law and the special knowledge you have that 400+ kids were being abused. We all know there’s no other way to justify taking them away from their families by judicial fiat.

Of course, you also contradict yourself when you avoid this little problem with your logic by erecting your construct of legally damning the entire group simply because they are an entire group. As has been pointed, by precisely that same logic entire urban centers should be arrested and sent into foster care by one judge’s imperial decree.

That you add insult to injury by citing a constitutional right to freedom from abuse is not surprising. Of course, there is no such thing, not per se, but there are many enumerated rights that could and have led to just laws preventing harm. But again, the point is that your grasp on the principle issues here is tenuous at best, imaginary at worst.

Should there be a right to be free from abuse, then the State has, by any measure held in any sort of balance with all your appeals to a presumption of guilt, committed abuse. It has abused not only those enumerated rights, it has physically abused these children by forcing them into a hostile, inadequate, and statistically abusive foster care system and away from their parents.

Now, should there be adequate and just cause to believe that over four hundred children were being abused, then over four hundred children need protection. But since that is not at all in evidence, since you do not pre-convict entire communities any more than you do entire urban centers, given that the State is under far more constitutional pressure to honor individual liberties than the reverse, and given that your constitutional expertise is lacking, I’d say you haven;t gotten a thing of use in this debate.

You’ve only confirmed those suspicions and so I’ll close the same way I did before. One must conclude that you’ve replaced rights with fiat. You’ve made your fellows subject to majority whim. You’ve replaced a constitutional republic with a mob. You propose short-circuited the Bill of Rights in favor of a religion of State.

Apr 27, 2008 - 1:33 pm Viola Jaynes:

I am also very concerned about this situation. I wrote a post on my site called, “What Of The Children” and I speak of my own experience growing up in an orphanage. The affects that a child is faced with and will be faced with…when they are taken from their parents.

This is not to say that those children who were abused should not have been taken from their abusers. However, I do think there were a lot of parents, especially mothers, who loved and cared for their children.

Apr 27, 2008 - 3:00 pm Viola Jaynes:

I am also very concerned about this situation. I wrote a post on my site called, “What Of The Children” at http://www.spiritualthingsmatter.com and I speak of my own experience growing up in an orphanage. The affects that a child is faced with and will be faced with…when they are taken from their parents.

This is not to say that those children who were abused should not have been taken from their abusers. However, I do think there were a lot of parents, especially mothers, who loved and cared for their children.

Apr 27, 2008 - 3:00 pm not obama plz:

you seem to be missing the point either purposely or that you really don’t understand.

The leader and self-proclaimed prophet of said polygamist sect is serving time in jail for what? Forcing a minor girl to marry her cousin. She objected. He is awaiting trial for the same allegations that he is now serving a sentence for. Jeffs is the David Koresh of the YFZ community. A community in which people follow his preaching and laws. The preaching of which, include the marrying off of underage girls to adult men without their consent.

Apparently, you see nothing wrong here. Thankfully our courts disagree with your cavelier attitudes towards the rights of children not to be handed off in marriage.

The entire situation of 400 children having to be removed from a community whose basic patriarcal tenents revolves around wholesale child rape and breeding lay squarely at the feet of those who allow such crimes to continue. By turning a blind eye for so many years, by not taking serious the women and boys who either escape or were thrown out, by throwing up out hands because of our “freedom of religion” rights that would allow any nut to proclaim himself a prophet, we have created the mess that these kids and women now find themselves in. Clearly, very clearly, the rights regarding “religious freedom” is in need of closer examination so that this wholesale pedophilia sex slavery that ran through the YFZ ranch never happens again. Agreed?

Are the children better off in foster care? That remains to be seen. That they should not remain in the hands of parents who followed such a creep as Warren Jeffs is clear in order to protect the young girls from this “spiritual marriage” bullsh!t is in my opinion right and just. You may disagree. You may also disgree with the texas consent laws. You may also agree that forced marriages are A O K. That is your choice. Our judicial system sadly for you, doesn’t agree with you.

Our laws persist to protect the weakest of us. This group lived outside our basic laws and the laws of texas. Sadly, the mothers in this case are deemed just as guilty as the fathers of the abuse of children and lose their rights, temporarily, until their case is solved.

I would say this is an important lesson for us all.

I would also say, the opinion of your complete and utter idiocy still stands.

And to the other idiot who chirped something about the muslims in this country blablabla “forced marriage” “multiple wives.” Have you ever heard of two wrongs don’t make a right? Your point HAS no point. The laws will get to them soon enough, through more awarness and transparency and through the ever increasing women’s rights movement amoung americanized muslim women. Only a matter of time.

have a nice day

Apr 27, 2008 - 3:24 pm Anonymous:

you seem to be missing the point either purposely or that you really don’t understand.

Like your namesake, you;re q

The leader and self-proclaimed prophet of said polygamist sect is serving time in jail for what? Forcing a minor girl to marry her cousin. She objected. He is awaiting trial for the same allegations that he is now serving a sentence for. Jeffs is the David Koresh of the YFZ community. A community in which people follow his preaching and laws. The preaching of which, include the marrying off of underage girls to adult men without their consent.

Apparently, you see nothing wrong here. Thankfully our courts disagree with your cavelier attitudes towards the rights of children not to be handed off in marriage.

The entire situation of 400 children having to be removed from a community whose basic patriarcal tenents revolves around wholesale child rape and breeding lay squarely at the feet of those who allow such crimes to continue. By turning a blind eye for so many years, by not taking serious the women and boys who either escape or were thrown out, by throwing up out hands because of our “freedom of religion” rights that would allow any nut to proclaim himself a prophet, we have created the mess that these kids and women now find themselves in. Clearly, very clearly, the rights regarding “religious freedom” is in need of closer examination so that this wholesale pedophilia sex slavery that ran through the YFZ ranch never happens again. Agreed?

Are the children better off in foster care? That remains to be seen. That they should not remain in the hands of parents who followed such a creep as Warren Jeffs is clear in order to protect the young girls from this “spiritual marriage” bullsh!t is in my opinion right and just. You may disagree. You may also disgree with the texas consent laws. You may also agree that forced marriages are A O K. That is your choice. Our judicial system sadly for you, doesn’t agree with you.

Our laws persist to protect the weakest of us. This group lived outside our basic laws and the laws of texas. Sadly, the mothers in this case are deemed just as guilty as the fathers of the abuse of children and lose their rights, temporarily, until their case is solved.

I would say this is an important lesson for us all.

I would also say, the opinion of your complete and utter idiocy still stands.

And to the other idiot who chirped something about the muslims in this country blablabla “forced marriage” “multiple wives.” Have you ever heard of two wrongs don’t make a right? Your point HAS no point. The laws will get to them soon enough, through more awarness and transparency and through the ever increasing women’s rights movement amoung americanized muslim women. Only a matter of time.

Apr 27, 2008 - 3:54 pm Ten:

you seem to be missing the point either purposely or that [sic] you really don’t understand.

Like your namesake, you’re quite impervious to reason, NOP. Each time you’re confronted with the fallacy of your position you move the goalposts and restate yourself more loudly.

The leader and self-proclaimed prophet of said polygamist sect is serving time in jail for what?

And your point would be?

The mayor of Detroit has committed crimes and presides over urban decay, illiteracy, underage pregnancies and births, drug use and commerce, and a host of sins. Is Detroit rounded up and penned in a foster collective run by the State of Michigan, even as socialized as it is?

No? Then why?

Jeffs is the David Koresh of the YFZ [sic] community.

By that logic, which presumes the guilt of folks just because of who they associate with, any criminal mayor of any major city would be the gangsta of the urban community.

The preaching of which, include [sic] the marrying off of underage girls to adult men without their consent.

An assertion that shy of a conviction of every last male who sired every one of those 400+ children, leaves intact the latter’s freedoms under the constitution. Which may explain CPS not seeking warrants to prosecute urban America.

May.

…our courts disagree with your cavelier [sic] attitudes [sic] towards [sic] the rights of children not to be handed off in marriage.

Where are those rights enumerated? I ask not because I disagree but to test the obvious limits of your knowledge, again, of rights.

At any rate, our courts have clear and evidently cavalier attitudes toward my rights and the rights of my fellow Americans. By the evidence in this case and by the simple majority weight of moralists such as yourself, all too ready to convict by opinion and majority and let God sort it all out. Are you even familiar with the Bill of Rights?

…child rape and breeding…

You keep beating that same drum, don’t you, louder every time. You really don’t see how that only amplifies the fallacy of your shoot first, ask questions later.

And if I were to state that much of America was presided over by lawbreaking cheats and villains? Are you possibly that naive?

…we have created the mess that these kids and women now find themselves in.

Spectacularly ironic, considering how you have zero sense of just how tyrannical the State has become when it comes to personal, family rights.

Clearly, very clearly, the rights regarding “religious freedom” is in need of closer examination so that this wholesale pedophilia sex slavery that ran through the YFZ ranch never happens again. Agreed?

What’s clear is the interesting rhetoric you need to select in order to frame your oddly irrational argument. What’s agreed is that you are now actually inventing conditions so as to support your irrational premise. You’re simply wrong: Government may not tear up an entire community of hundreds of families on false accusation and the suspicion of the possible wrongs of a small minority.

…they should not remain in the hands of parents who followed such a creep as Warren Jeffs is clear…

You alarm me. You should alarm every right-thinking American who values his rights and is aware of the assault on them by the State. Tell me, are you in any way aware of the vast commerce that a case like this engages? It’s connection to federal policy and enormous financial kickbacks to the State?

Our judicial system sadly for you, doesn’t agree with you.

Sadly, indeed. And I don’t agree with your resorting to this presumptive proof by court authority any more than I have your other fallacious attempts to persuade your rather unreasonable argument.

Rather, I see you as largely out of facts and entirely out of perspective.

Our laws persist to protect the weakest of us.

Our rights exist to protect the weakest of us and our laws must follow those rights, not trump and trash them. Your tacitly agreeing that foster care is dangerous is yet another admission that you’re clueless about that concept. I already know you’re clueless about the trail of money and power here.

I would say this is an important lesson for us all.

It is. It is a lesson in the fragility of rights and the horrible power of unchecked, blind, thuggish majority moral power.

That’s it for me, poster. You’ll surely never be reasoned out of something you quite obviously weren’t reasoned into. Your abusive style doesn’t earn you any points either.

For you we have those collectives of poor thought and irrationality where legislated thuggery passes for reason and brute law and the process of brutish law passes for constitutionality.

You are precisely what the Framers feared. And they spoke of it.

Apr 27, 2008 - 4:23 pm not obama plz:

unbelievable. you are one sorry individual

“The mayor of Detroit has committed crimes and presides over urban decay, illiteracy, underage pregnancies and births, drug use and commerce, and a host of sins. Is Detroit rounded up and penned in a foster collective run by the State of Michigan, even as socialized as it is?”

This is a most assinine analogy. You cannot be serious. That is like saying Pres. Clinton - as President should be held liable for the 86,000 rapes of women per year in the US. However, the president, like the mayor preside over the wellbeing of their respected areas of influence which has certain laws to provent those within these areas from comminting crimes. thus, statutory rape laws, drug dealing and possession laws and others. Upon finding that subjects within these areas are have alleged to commit crimes they must stand before a judge and jury.
Warren Jeffs surrounds his community with walls, closes his “subjects” off from the rest of the world proclaiming himself perveyor of all those within said walls. He then institutes his laws.His laws are counter to the laws of the land in which his little walled property resides.What is different between his fiefdom and your own home is this: He can promote pedophilia with impunity whereas you cannot. Even though it is YOUR home, if you are found to be abusing a minor you WILL be held to be breaking one of President Bushes, and more locally, The mayor of detroits laws. The difference, you moron, is you will go to prison if found guilty and an idiot inside Warren Jeffs alternate world you get to go to heaven at the expense of the abused.
If that isn’t clear for you, then you are simply ignorant.

“By that logic, which presumes the guilt of folks just because of who they associate with, any criminal mayor of any major city would be the gangsta of the urban community.”
First of all if a mayor is found guilty in a court of law to be a criminal he is punished. Truly what planet are you residing? Pedophile Jeffs, found guilty of crimes, sits his prophet behind in jail.

“The preaching of which, include [sic] the marrying off of underage girls to adult men without their consent.”
An assertion that shy of a conviction of every last male who sired every one of those 400+ children, leaves intact the latter’s freedoms under the constitution. Which may explain CPS not seeking warrants to prosecute urban America.
Again, when one breaks a law, when one is found to break a law, when one has had the benefit of due process and has been found to be guilty one goes to jail. if not - he is free to go and collect $200.Are there criminals in urban america that end up in jail when caught and convicted? Every man from the YFZ compound will have his day in court as is his right. DNA testing will provide the courts with needed information to verify or not who a child belongs to (both father & mother) and the age of the mother of said child when child was conceived. Either she will be have been determined to be of legal age to be impregnated or she won’t. Men in every city of our country face the same criminal charges of statutory rape if convicted of sex with a minor. Are you suggesting by this pointless line of questioning that this is NOT the case? That there are not men rotting in jail for this very crime?

“Where are those rights enumerated? I ask not because I disagree but to test the obvious limits of your knowledge, again, of rights.”
They are called “statuatory rape laws.” LAWS protect us when our rights or freedoms are taken from us. When a child’s virginity is taken away you take away that child’s right as a human being to grow up and choose his or her own mate. Gee, could that be reason enough for such a law to protect such a right? Parse away all you want please and go even further, challenge that children do not have rights within our judicial system.

“At any rate, our courts have clear and evidently cavalier attitudes toward my rights and the rights of my fellow Americans.”
Oh? And with respect to this particular case how do you see that you would be violated of YOUR rights? The right to _____ <–fill in the blank Laughable.

“By the evidence in this case and by the simple majority weight of moralists such as yourself, all too ready to convict by opinion and majority and let God sort it all out. Are you even familiar with the Bill of Rights?”
I am familiar with child rape laws. Are you? All too ready to convict? Not quite yet. We should wait for all the evidence to come in, that IS their right.

…child rape and breeding…
“You keep beating that same drum, don’t you, louder every time. You really don’t see how that only amplifies the fallacy of your shoot first, ask questions later.”
Apparently this bothers you. I wonder why. This is why 400+ children were taken from that compound if you hadn’t been listening. Evidence of child brides & forced marriages, from former residents within the compound, the arrest and conviction of the compound’s leader in aiding the rape of a 14 year old girl in one of his cult’s “spiritual marriages” I’d say that there was more than mere opinion to suggest that other children might very well be endangered. Take into account that this has been known by law enforcement for some time but had its hands tied to the religious freedom accept. If anything you should be outraged that this group could possibly get away with something you’d rot in jail for doing, as an ordinary citizen. Your thinking is so terribly flawed and confused.

“And if I were to state that much of America was presided over by lawbreaking cheats and villains?” Haha no kidding, and this somehow makes it right for even one person to go free from commiting a crime? Because “Daddy got away with it? Sorry but the thought of a society completely lawless just because of a few cheats and villians at the top (which btw every citizen should rise up against). I have a little more faith that my fellow man and woman will in the end do what is right and just for children on up to grannies and grandpas.

…we have created the mess that these kids and women now find themselves in.
“Spectacularly ironic, considering how you have zero sense of just how tyrannical the State has become when it comes to personal, family rights.”
Ah now we get to the crux of your discontent. Let me guess. Divorced dad being made to pay child support.

“What’s clear is the interesting rhetoric you need to select in order to frame your oddly irrational argument. What’s agreed is that you are now actually inventing conditions so as to support your irrational premise. You’re simply wrong: Government may not tear up an entire community of hundreds of families on false accusation and the suspicion of the possible wrongs of a small minority.”

Clearly, very clearly, you are wrong yet again. Due to the cluster-fck of lies and decrepancies of ages and last names, who was married to whom and whose child belonged to what father the likes of which has never been seen in any “community” in the outside world of this compound, proved only to compound the complete chaos leading to today’s mess of this many children having to be taken into protection.

…they should not remain in the hands of parents who followed such a creep as Warren Jeffs is clear…
“You alarm me. You should alarm every right-thinking American who values his rights and is aware of the assault on them by the State. Tell me, are you in any way aware of the vast commerce that a case like this engages? It’s connection to federal policy and enormous financial kickbacks to the State?”

No, you alarm ME and you particular brand of thinking should also alarm the rest of the people on this thread by putting economics over the welfare of children. You are completely despicible.

the rest of your comments are just more pointlessness and only proves:
1. you really do not care about the protection of the laws that pertain to the abuse of children.
2. you haven’t moved from idiot status.

I tire of you. go sell your victimhood to someone else. kthx

Apr 27, 2008 - 6:00 pm Jacques:

Mylai,

First let me congratulate you on misspelling my name that is always welcome in a reply. I can tell that you have deeply thought out your reply due to the deep insightful rhetoric used, namely name calling, and attacking a person rather then attacking the ideas. That being said lets look at your responses, and see if we can not alleviate the situation a little bit.

1. “ALL priests are not pedophiles. ALL men at that imbecilic inbred community Yearning For Zion ARE polygamists. AND [sic] all girls of said imbecilic inbred community are groomed to marry old farts starting from puberity [sic] and have sex for the production of more inbredanywhere [sic] from 11 years of age to 14.”

First I did not say that all priests are pedophiles, to say such is to damage a proud and worthy calling for those who care to enter said calling. Yet you seem to infer that all members of the FLDS who where at YFZ (Yearning For Zion) are polygamists. Where did you acquire that information? From what I can find and from what I have read the actual amount of FLDS who practice polygamy is less then 50%. Another fact is that many of the people who where there at the YFZ ranch where there visiting from out of state, so we have children who were removed, who are from Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Oregon, and Washington. Those children are also being held by the state of Texas until this is all sorted out.

2. “Unless you know something the rest of us don’t know, HONOR KILLINGS are NOT a right of ANYONE including muslims [sic] in the USA and the freaks that commit such murder will find THAT out very quickly when brought to justice. They can kill all the women they want in their own backward countries - not when they come here.”

I never once said it was a right of Muslims or any other religion to practice this, I simply stated that it is a reoccurring practice that is happening over and over again in all countries including this one. As for finding out how quickly it is dealt with why don’t you try looking into it? Often the perpetrators are subject to probation, maybe a little bit of jail time if tired at all. You need to look at Ohio, Michigan, New York, and New Jersey to see how wrong you are about this one.

3. “threesomes, swingers and all alternative lifestyle morons USUALLY consist of ADULTS and not 14 year olds. Who gives a damn what they do within their marriages. In state of texas a 16 year old girl can only marry with the consent of her parents - no exceptions.”

Agreed that is the point I am trying to make here, people who chose to live an alternative lifestyle are free to practice how and what they want, but throw a religion into it and suddenly it is the “spawn of the Devil”. What consenting adults choose to do or not due should be left up to them, and if they chose to let their daughters marry at age 16, and they give their consent then it is up to them to live with the consequences of that decision. I do not have the moral authority to tell you how you should act, or how you should live your life, so why do you claim the moral authority to tell others how they should act or live their lives. Only the people can give the rights of moral authority to the government (this government for the people, of the people) and where we as a people do not have the moral authority to dictate the actions of consenting adults, then we can not give this authority to any government. If a government takes upon itself the moral authority to dictate people’s actions and practices, then to what purpose do we respect the constitution of the United States, when any over zealous state government can simply enact that one such practice is a criminal act.

4. “…The internets cannot knock-up a 16 yr old showing off her giblets. Only SPERM from a penis will, however. Therein, Jacques, is the difference. “

Ya think!!! Maybe you should check out the statistics for unwed teenage births in your area, let me know what the average age of the father is. In mine it is around 25. It is not uncommon to hear of a 14 or 15 year old getting “knocked up” by some guy who is over 25, yet no prosecution usually takes place, with the exception of rape. At least in the FLDS the children are wanted and well taken care of, If you look at the amount of neglect and abuse that exists in the rest of the country and then you look at those who are FLDS, it is a shocking contradiction to say the least.

TEN, I appreciate your candor and envy your eloquence with words. Keep fighting for the rights of the repressed and abused, the country needs more people like you.

Apr 27, 2008 - 6:56 pm not obama plz:

Jacques,

Apparently you are another “victim” of our oppressive government. You, like your idol, Ten, are in the minority in this particular case.

This is not a normal case of one mother/one father in one house with one child. This is a mess of fathers, mothers and 100’s of children many of whom have mothers giving false information of no information at all. Just because it is the biological polygamists nightmare of a mess does not exclude the law from finding the best way to deal with the core problem. An issue of child abuse. Obviously you do not appreciate or understand the colossal mess for the Texas law enforcement this case is and the only solution you seem to want to offer is, do. nothing.

I’ll only address #4. because it is so glaringly idiotic.
Without a doubt pedophile men prey on minors outside the YfZ compound but they are subject to something the YZ pedophiles have not been. A jail sentence for statuatory rape. Do you not hope to see the day that changes? I do hope so.

Do you even realize how ridiculous this statement of yours is? And i quote: “It is not uncommon to hear of a 14 or 15 year old getting “knocked up” by some guy who is over 25, yet no prosecution usually takes place, with the exception of rape.”

With the exception of rape? Yeah, well that’s a felony offense if you didn’t know. The courts will also list said rapist as a child sex offender in addition to making him financial responsible for the child of rape.

And no, the intranets cannot impregnate a 16 year old showing her giblets. She has to have a pedo (depending on the age of consent in her state and age of the man who has sex with her) in order for her to be knocked up.

Apr 27, 2008 - 8:18 pm griefer:

“you seem to infer that all members of the FLDS who where at YFZ (Yearning For Zion) are polygamists”
Jacques…cuz they are.
57 men, 165 adult women, and the women all say they are married. they get around bigamy laws by having only one legal marriage per man…the rest are “spiritual wives”.

there are multiple 14 and 15 yearold pregnant girls who adress each other as sister wives. there is a 13 year old mother.
not 16 year olds.

Apr 27, 2008 - 9:08 pm WAIT!:

“and that YFZ gets tax-exemption because it’s of its religious status?”

WAIT a minute!!! You mean all of us working hard and following a normal Religion, WE have to pay Taxes, and can have only only Wife? Come on .. can i claim YFZ and not pay taxes too? Whats the requirement have a 14 year old sister wife and never leave my ranch? Pass on the 14 year old, I don’t have a lust or greed of little girls. BUT I will take the no taxes paying!
On a side note, these are some sick people. I’m sorry but if your over 18 looking at a 14 year old girl in lust, you are wrong my friend. Your going to a fiery pit I hope if your over 40 looking at a 14 year old girl. Arranged marriages are for people of similar age, not Grandpa heres your new 10 year old wife.
To all you out; do you all understand that these people worship a guy that found a buried book. He’s a prophet that will judge you when you die, along with Jesus and Kazual (god of our planet) Let them believe what they want, don’t let them do what they want, especially when it’s ILLEGAL!

Apr 28, 2008 - 5:41 pm FP:

People who hide in words are evil; laws are ever shifting ink-on-paper that say nothing about anything real.

We need to get rid of debate in society and go back to sword play to settle differences.

I’m deadly serious.

Apr 29, 2008 - 4:32 pm BuffyTie:

They just announced that most of the children do show signs of physical abuse, the youngest ones have all had broken bones. One of the little girls gave birth to a baby in a hospital Tuesday!

Apr 30, 2008 - 11:59 am BuffyTie:

Official: History of injuries found in polygamist sect children

By LISA SANDBERG
Austin Bureau
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5742558.html

AUSTIN — Dozens of children seized from a West Texas polygamist sect had broken or fractured bones in the past, state officials said today.

Medical exams indicate that at least 41 of the 463 children in state custody had previous broken or fractured bones, said Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services.

“It is cause for concern and something that we are investigating,” she said.

For the past month, child welfare investigators had focused nearly all their attention on the alleged sexual abuse of young girls who once resided with their parents at the Yearning for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, alluding only occasionally to suspected physical abuse. This is the first time state officials have provided specific information of what might be considered physical abuse.

Texas officials have also told legislators they’re looking at the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from the ranch.

In a written update provided to lawmakers today, the state Child Protective Services division says it is looking into possible sexual abuse of boys based on interviews and journal entries.

The agency provided no other details.

Earlier this morning, Carey Cockrell, head of the Department of Family and Protective Services, briefed a Senate panel about the number of children, some of whom were very young, found with past bone breaks.

It was not clear how many of the children might have been injured while playing or working on the 1,700-acre ranch they once called home.

Earlier this month, the state seized all 463 children from the ranch amid allegations that underage girls were being “spiritually married” to much older men and sexually abused. The followers belong to a breakaway Mormon sect that practices polygamy. It is known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The children have been placed in group homes and shelters around the state.

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker called Cockerell’s testimony “a deliberate effort to mislead the public.”

Parker said any broken bones would have been treated in medical facilities away from the ranch in Eldorado and that doctors are required to report suspected abuse.

Parker said state officials were “trying to politically inoculate themselves from the consequences of this horrible tragedy.”

On Monday, CPS announced that almost 60 percent of the underage girls living on the Eldorado ranch are pregnant or already have children. Another child was born to a teen mother on Tuesday.

Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of the sect’s girls is believed to have had a legal marriage under state law.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Apr 30, 2008 - 12:03 pm not obama:

It seems they were having a virtual field day with minor girls and boys under that farce of a religion.

In New Mexico, today, there was another 60-odd year old perverted idiot AGAIN who claimed HE was a “prophet” of HIS religion caught having sex with the children there. Even admitted it, said it was his right.

This nonsense has to stop. Polygamy needs to outlawed once and for all and all these BS “religions” must be made to be transparent and taxed. No, better yet, put a stop to. The “religions” whose beliefs allow parents to forbid medical treatment for seriously ill children included. Stop fighting against abortion of unBORN children if you won’t protect the children already here and living under these nightmarish conditions! Some parents NEED to have their children taken away from them.

This present climate of “freedom of religion” should be changed to “freedom FROM religion” when it conflicts with the rights of ALL human being, PARTICULARLY children.

These men, they start these wackjob cults which turn out to be nothing more that pedophile “resorts.” They want nothing more than sex with little girls, sex with multiple wives and sex with boys. They are nothing more than sissy misogynists who upon failing at life on the outside, built walls and stocked victims they could bully and rape. Ultimate control over the lives of others for their own degenerate sexual satisfaction.If that isn’t apparent in every single one of these “compound” walled up secret sects I don’t know what is and sadly there is no hope for America if we allow for them to continue.

This government and the apologists therein and among us, in the rush toward political correctness, conveniently avoid calling these “religions” exactly what they are, sex slave indoctrination camps.

The very idea this appalling degeneracy exists in this country and is ALLOWED to continue under some assinine “religious rights” veil is pathetic. It quite frankly makes us no better than any of the other countries we, as Americans, love to look down our noses at. We are guilty of our OWN human rights abuses right HERE and we have no right to say America is ANY better. What pitiful self-righteous hypocrits we are.

Apr 30, 2008 - 7:19 pm FP:

‘Not obama’ is fairly correct in [her] “fascist control of idiots” vibe (though it aint really liberalism’s orig goal; so one must ask just how much pendulum swing is allowed in liberalism).

But calling ‘adult-man-marriage to and sex with teen nieces et al ‘degenerate’ is inaccurate, unless one considers normal human history to be “degenerate”. It is a political rhetoric trick to cover up the obvious fact that liberal civilization is hundreds of times more pathologically “degenerate” than religious neo tribals community.

(Interesting that nazis use to use this same word –’degenerate’– as the motivation for attack. I’m sure this fact is not lost on Not obama.)

Not obama’s assesment of human failures –who fail at one type of competition /socialization– moving away to start anew is correct too. Sound philosphical/Naturalist principle.

But it applies to everything… Certainly feminsim –and it’s pre req underpinnings: _inferior men_ who embolden females– is the side effect of failiure and the consequent “running away” and starting “degrenrate societies that brainwash and coerce people to conform”.

=====
Regarding that Austin Bureau new release…

41 kids [who have had broken bones] of 460 is under 10%. Thats is probably about right for redneck kids at play. I wonder what the city-breed’s ratio is. And certianly city folk have more degenerate pathologies than tribal hill fort people.

So if we’re going to change the goofball constitution to mean “raiding and kidnapping, so as to prempt “problems”[tm] is good” we should start with raiding and kidnapping from the cities and single female parent households and work our way out from there…

May 1, 2008 - 5:42 pm MikeT:

So we are going to sacrifice these individuals’ right to due process as Texas engages in what amounts to a collective judgment and punishment? You may save some girls from being sexually molested that way, but you will accomplish that by a precedent that would only serve to damn due process rights in Texas for any parent who for any reason, falls into CPS’ crosshairs.

May 2, 2008 - 10:35 pm transcended:

From what I understand of the CPS, if they are alerted as to a possible child abuse charge then they must act. To not act is to be shirking the whole point of a CPS. They act by investigating the home in which the alleged child abuse/abuses is to have been reported to take place.

In this case the “home” was not a single family apartment or house. It was not a child of a single parent or even the child of 2 parents. Such households are routinely investigated upon calls to CPS and children are indeed removed into a foster care problem until a judge decides there is either just cause to keep the child/children away from the parent or return them to the home. All “at risk” children within the household are removed if sufficient “proof” of any kind of abuse, neglect and or rape is being leveled upon even one child. Single parent or 2-parent households are the overwhelming rule and not the exception.

When the “single parent/2-parent home” isn’t such, which is infinitely easier to sort out instead a “compound” with 100’s of children whose parents are almost indistinguishable from any number of “sister-mothers” and fathers have fathered any number of children. No clear indication of who belonged to who, adults giving conflicting ages and with-holding surnames plus the very presense of a number of girls - clearly teens - who are either pregnant or are already mothers all together presented a greater problem than that of single mother/father household. The repeated false information of the mothers led to these women being legitiment suspects in a possible coverup of crimes against the children within that multiple family compound.

Add to this, the damning information gleened from former members of the cult-compound, including the girl who testified at Jeffs trial in which he was convicted for forcing a 14 year to marry an adult. A “marriage” which was not consented to nor legal in the state of Texas.

Texas CPS and law enforcement, under these extraordinary conditions, and based on good probable cause, did the job they should have. Protecting children by removing them from illegal, physical and mental harm. Given all the “ways to go” they chose the best. Not doing anything in any case of suspected child abuse and rape should and is simply never an option.

Since everyone is innocent until proven guilty, it will be interesting to see the outcome of these fathers and mothers as it goes through the courts.

May 3, 2008 - 10:42 pm

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