Pajamas Media

81 Comments

1. TomP:

I’m shocked!! A communist country lied? What is the world coming too?

Aug 17, 2008 - 5:20 am 2. Amy:

How can anyone be surprised? From lead infused toys to lying about their Olympic participants ages… long gone is the “Honorable China” that used to be such a point with them. Communisim is all about lying, cheating and stealing from everyone in a desperate attempt to look wonderful.

Aug 17, 2008 - 5:30 am 3. canuck:

The worst was the substitution of hypersulfonated chondroitin sulfate for heparin…there are at least 87 deaths in US hospitals of humans. Add to that the pet food contamination and there is ever reason to ban all Chinese organic products from the US market.

This is international…the Chinese are raping all of Africa and its forests. Lots of good information on Chinese clear cutting wrecking many African communities.

Aug 17, 2008 - 6:05 am 4. Lorenzo:

It’s even a bigger triumph for China when its children win gold medals. When China’s children are better than other country’s adults, then you know it is doing something right. Lying about the ages of China’s Olympic entrants should not be neccessary because the IOC should not have age limits. Who cares if a 12 year old is the best at her event.

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:28 am 5. Jing:

Too bad the gymnasts are actually of age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrY4l2CD-XE

Documentary about gymnastics training from winter of 2003 where the girls are talking about preparations for the Beijing games and mentions her age. The full video has several of the other members of the Chinese team on it.

Then again, bitching about discrepancies in state-owned news blurbs seems to be the new black.

The “We Wuzz Robbed” routine gets old fairly quick.

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:21 am 6. DoesNotMatter:

Excuse me, stealing gold ?
How about won it fair and square ?
Unless they get postive doping results they won the competition.

Age restrictions are idiotic anyways, if a athlete can exceed the standards needed for admission he should be able to compete.

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:37 am 7. Marie:

What part of cheating do you not understand? They have regulations for a reason.

Aug 17, 2008 - 12:53 pm 8. Jade Pony:

You can accomplish a lot when you don’t take an individual’s well-being into account. Some people look at Beijing & Shanghai and see dazzling buildings. I see hordes of migrant workers sleeping on site, working in dangerous conditions, and not getting paid. Who is their advocate?

The Olympics used to be something to believe in. Now they are an insult to sport and athleticism, as well as the international community.

Regardless of ages, clearly this was two different competitions going on. Young ladies versus children. Rather than remove the age criteria, I say remove this event entirely and let girls get back to their childhoods.

I think with world politics the way they are currently, this is not a time to hold nationalistic pissing contests. Or is it bread and circuses?

Aug 17, 2008 - 1:00 pm 9. Gordon G. Chang:

Marie, thank you for replying to DoesNotMatter, who seems to have a problem comprehending rules-based competition.

Aug 17, 2008 - 2:45 pm 10. Susan Katz Keating:

The gymnmasts’ ages matter for a lot of reasons, particularly for the health of the gymnasts. When you front-load gymnastics training at an early age, as the Chinese do, you wreak havoc on young developing bodies. The children’s growth plates, tendons, heels, feet, elbows, joints, you-name-it, take an intense beating. Although gymnastics is not easy at any age, the paced-out training is healthier on body and on mind. In this country, we follow rules that were designed to protect young athletes. The Cheating Chinese – and their IOC enablers – flaunt these rules with impunity.

Aug 17, 2008 - 5:16 pm 11. Chinese Olympic Cheating » The American Mind:

[...] Stealing Gold in Beijing“ Save and Share: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and [...]

Aug 17, 2008 - 5:42 pm 12. Michael W. Perry:

Since the International Olympic Committee is refusing to investigate these girls’ ages, expressing a willingness to take the Chinese government at its word, other countries should announce that the IOC will no longer be able to test or investigate any of the qualifications of their athletes, they will have to take each country at its word. That applies to drug testing as well as age and even sex.

In other words, if China can do this, any other country should be able to do it.

Aug 17, 2008 - 5:53 pm 13. Mike:

Isn’t this the same IOC that recently discovered that the East German women who had facial hair and no breasts were taking steroids?

The Olympics have always been led by corrupt individuals looking the other way.

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:55 pm 14. Edward:

On a lighter note,

I found the Chinese team to be both beautiful and very skilled, unlike the “cows” that the United States marched out there, the Chinese flew around the arena with grace and flash and deserved all the glory that comes along with winning the Gold. They ( the Chinese team ) have peaked my interest in the sport and i look forward to watching them in the future, Especially the beautiful Miss Deng Linlin , who stole my heart even if it will be 5 years or more until she is of legal age.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:38 am 15. colagirl:

If the U.S. had also decided to enter girls who had not yet undergone the drastic physical changes of puberty, then perhaps you would have been less impressed by the Chinese performance.

It’s been pointed out that the 16-and-up age rule helps to protect girls who are still developing from the rigorous and potentially damaging training schedule necessary for Olympic level gymnastics, but there’s another reason as well and that is that in gymnastics, children who have not yet fully developed have a real advantage. They are lighter, more flexible and more agile than post-pubescents. If China did in fact enter underage athletes–and I don’t find it unbelievable, shades of the East German steroid scandals, anyone?–then it’s not just a matter of them subjecting children to potentially damaging treatment (although that is certainly bad enough), they were also deliberately breaking the rules to enter athletes that had an illegal advantage over those from other, rule-abiding countries. Again, there’s a word for that and it’s “cheating.”

Aug 18, 2008 - 2:41 am 16. DoesNotMatter:

It’s a competition not a feel good event for people who can’t hack it.

Aug 18, 2008 - 2:51 am 17. CR:

The Chinese got away with it before so of course they will repeat the process. If the USA had played underage girls, there would have been an uproar and the IOC would have certainly stepped in to punish them. This is just one more example of a corrupt and unfair international organization. The IOC could at least be fair and ignore all the rules for every country and every sport. They could call it the Chaos Games and I bet viewership would increase substantially over the current Olympic format.

I see some China apologists are at it again with their gushing comments. As for Edward – if a cheating, under aged communist girl can steal your heart, then you have serious mental health problems.

What a fantastic message to send to sporting youth around the world, that cheating is more than OK, it’s rewarded with gold.

Aug 18, 2008 - 4:08 am 18. cwm:

Call it a Title IX backlash. For years we have been telling girls that they can do everything a boy can do and do it better. To ensure this bit of socialism we made sure an unlevel playing field was established via Title IX. Now when our girls can’t do something better it must be because they CHEATED. Whining has been a mainstay in the feminist world it worked with Lawrence Summers why should it not work at the Olypmics?

Aug 18, 2008 - 4:24 am 19. Edward:

Thank you for your input CR , you appear to be the type of “tightly-wound” individual that I go out of my way to avoid. It is more than obvious to anyone watching the olympics that the Chinese girls are ” underaged ” B F D!!! Last time I checked sports were a form of entertainment, I could give 2 (you know whats) That Miss Deng Linlin comes from a communist country, that did not stop her and her teamates from putting on a great show. I was ENTERTAINED!!! They were certainly more pleasing to the eye than there American counterparts. That was the point of my first comments MORON.

Aug 18, 2008 - 5:07 am 20. Mike:

Welcome to the new and progressive, glorious, peoples socialist norm. Reality is what party officials say it is comrade. Do you question that?, then to the re education camps with you. Yopu must be re trained for your own good if you are a wrong thinker. Hail the messiah, er, uh, Mao that is.

Aug 18, 2008 - 5:59 am 21. John Hammer:

If the little ones have the advantage why did the US win gold and silver in the Woman’s all around? The answer to that question is proof that nothing has been stolen.

Keroly is pissed at the rule and should be because it is stupid. How old was Nadia when he coached her to a perfect 10?

Aug 18, 2008 - 6:10 am 22. Jill:

Edward, you are totally missing the point. We are all happy you are being “entertained”. However, the point is,(see if you can follow) These young girls are physically at potential risk to their health, and it is against the Olympic rules (age limits). China is not exempt. Your attitude is one of the things that is wrong in the world.

Aug 18, 2008 - 6:25 am 23. notall16yearslooksame:

Does all 16 years old look same in every race and region?
A 16 year old US boy/girl looks different than a 16 year old Indian, or oriental (China, Japan, Korea etc.) boy/girl. It is not China’s fault that you do not understand this simple point.

BTW: I am Indian and not at all a fan of China.

Aug 18, 2008 - 6:29 am 24. Edward:

Hello Jill,

I can follow… Maybe I did not come across as a caring person. I do care. I do not advocate putting young girls in harm’s way or exposing there young developing bodies to unhealthy activities that they may not be ready for. I am not as concerned about the whole “cheating” issue. These Olympics have been planned for sometime and I am quite sure the US team as well as the rest of the world knew far in advance exactly who it was that China intended to send out to face them. The problem was that China’s team was flat out better than everyone elses team. So the excuse makers needed to pull out the “Under – Age” card. I doubt this would have been that big an issue had China finished in say 5th or 6th place in the team event. And again I will repeat the only point that i was trying to make earlier, Chinas team was much more graceful and much more beautiful than the US team. As a man and a fan of beauty that was my only real reason for watching to begin with.

Aug 18, 2008 - 7:51 am 25. Gordon G. Chang:

Edward, China’s team was “flat out better” because it was younger. China would not have won as many medals as it has if we–and other nations–were allowed to field younger competitors.

Aug 18, 2008 - 8:56 am 26. Yaeli:

I think that Bela was correct when he says we need to remove the age restriction. Girls peak in gymnastics between 12-14 years old and definitely before puberty which causes all kinds of problems –the body changes in both height and weight reduce the ability to perform, increase the levels and frequency of injury, and of course this is when anorexia sets in. You will not find high level gymnasts above 14 who are not anorexic, period. This is because you have to keep your body as close to pre-pubescent as you can and if you are 5′ and weigh 90 pounds, you are waayyy too fat. As a gymnast, by 16 your body is more than ready for retirement. (In my day, at 18 you were considered very “over the hill.”)

Bela, by the way is not arguing that these 13 and 14 year olds should not be competing because of their youth, he is arguing that they should not be competing if everyone else is required to compete when they are past their prime. I agree entirely: lift the age restrictions.

Aug 18, 2008 - 9:30 am 27. Pashley:

I’m not a fan of China, not a gymnast enthusiast, but thought that China’s team was flat-out world-class and better.

Before complaining about China’s window dressing, you should look into all the national Olympic committees, my take is that its not pretty. Here in the US I used to date a woman on the US Olympic Ski team because of her daddy’s money. Its not a great situation, China’s has its form of influence, we have ours.

Aug 18, 2008 - 9:51 am 28. Yaeli:

John –Nadia had just turned 14 when she got those perfect 10s.

Susan –sorry to disillusion you about the whole “not putting such a strain on a young child’s body” –at 12 (and much younger) you are necessarily working out 6-8 hours a day, 6 days a week if you want a prayer of ever making it to the Olympics or even to Elite level–regardless of whether you will be competing at age 14, 16, or 26. This is not a sport one can pick up at a late age (optimally starting no later than 5), nor one that you can ever excel at by putting in only a few hours or a few days of practice in a week. The latter is called recreational gymnastics. As a former gymnastic (a Karolyi kid) and someone who coached gymnastics for a good number of years, I can assure you the training gets far more brutal on the body and mind after age 15-16 simply because you are trying to maintain where you were when you were younger and it requires a lot more work.

Aug 18, 2008 - 10:02 am 29. pch1013:

The point is, the name of the event is “women’s gymnastics” — not “girls’ gymnastics.”

Those Chinese athletes are not women. Period. (so to speak)

Aug 18, 2008 - 10:27 am 30. Assistant Village Idiot:

There are several misunderstandings from the defenders of the Chinese team here. If Jing’s information is true (training video from 2003), then that would be a decent argument. (Have you got more info?) The other defenses are simply not logical. Edward likes them becasue they’re cute, and that’s what entertainment is all about. This is a sporting event, a specific kind of entertainment that has requirements. Baseball is also entertainment, but we don’t award the pennant to the cutest team. Edwards finding them graceful and light, others finding them to be better on entirely aesthetic grounds is entirely irrelevant. You don’t get to make the rules as to who should win medals. The rules are in place beforehand. If you don’t like the rule and think younger women should be allowed to compete, that is a valid general discussion, but irrelevant in this context. The rules are the same for everyone because that is central to sports competition. That some people who follow gymnastics only every four years find something more entertaining is irrelevant. Go buy a Chinese dance DVD or something. To ignore the rules is to ruin the competition for those who appreciate gymnastics as a sport.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:26 pm 31. Amphipolis:

“Sorry; it’s too bad about the rules,” she told Liukin.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/19/for-liukin-tie-means-too-bad/

Uh, yeah – but what about the rule that you have to be 16?

It is irrelevant what effect the sport has on young girls. The rules say that they can’t compete. Period.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:32 pm 32. jerry:

Edward:

All sports have rules and to the casual observer many appear to be stupid. But if you dig more deeply then you see that maybe they are not stupid after all. I don’t know gymnastics but I do know golf. Several weeks ago Michelle Wie was DQ-ed because she left the scoring area without signing her card. In golf the rule is clear, that once you leave the scoring area you cannot return. Many people who don’t much about gold as they would like to think said that was a stupid rule and the LPGA shouldn’t enforce it. But there is a reason for that rule. It’s called integrity of the result. Since the player is no longer present at the scorer’s table the card could have altered either to her disadvantage or advantage so her posted score could longer be considered valid. She was done. The rule is not as stupid as one might think.

I don’t know why the International Gymnastics Federation rule is sixteen years old but whatever the reason, be it health and safety or leveling the playing field, the rule is what it is and those who don’t abide by it are cheating. I don’t particularly care if you are entertained or not because like Michelle Wie’s score at the tournament this year’s competition has lost its integrity. It can only be restored by DQ-ing the under aged competitors. Whether they should drop age restriction is irrelevant to the 2008 Summer Olympic Games.

Here’s my bottom line to you: If you are watching sports for entertainment value and not in the spirit of competition then please stick to World Wrestling Entertainment where everything is choreographed and the outcome fixed in advance.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:44 pm 33. Mirak:

X-Ray the wrists? Wouldn’t it be easier to do a dental x-ray?! Is there an adult tooth hiding in those baby gums or not?

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:12 pm 34. Marie:

Those who approve “cheating” are more than likely “cheaters”. Those so enamored, entertained by the very young, are often considered Pedophilia.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:25 pm 35. Lived in China 11 years:

The 2008 games was the golden opportunity for the Communist elite to show off their triumphs, and thus maintain/legitimize their hold on power. I watched the Chinese “negotiate” Hong Kong right out of the grasp of Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher. In doing so, I came to understand that “silver” — i.e. Second Place, is not an option for the ambitious Chinese Communist regime. Look at Tibet. Can we be surprised that a few birth dates get “revised” for the glory of the Chinese empire? The same double standards apply across the world stage where Chinese officials demand preferential treatment in trade and environmental issues. Appeasement –of Chinese ambitions — will not secure world peace any more than it did in 1939.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:34 pm 36. Susan Katz Keating:

Yaeli, your key phrase is, “former” Karolyi kid. The tricks have become much harder since the days when Nadia scored her perfect 10. No elite (or L10) gymnast would perform that routine today because it is not difficult by today’s standards. I stand by my original comment.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:46 pm 37. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"Edward:

On a lighter note,

I found the Chinese team to be both beautiful and very skilled, unlike the “cows” that the United States marched out there, the Chinese flew around the arena with grace and flash and deserved all the glory that comes along with winning the Gold.”"”"”"”"

“COWS?” Excuse me, “Cows?”

You’re calling actual 16-18-yr. old girls who average about 5 ft. 2 in. and 95-100 lbs. COWS? What are you, Mr. “on a lighter note,” a pedophile?

Keep in mind that the Chinese did not win everything, and they did not win but by the tiniest of margins, which means the American and Russian and Rumanian girls fit all the criteria of grace and beauty that you ascribe to the under-age Cinese pixies, and they did this with the addition of having actual female bodies.

COWS?

TWIT.

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:09 pm 38. Roderick Reilly:

Sign of the times. Never in my lifetime have I seen people in the West so willing to “play pretend” about almost everything.

Let’s pretend the Chinese girls are actually 16. Let’s let them win while pretending some of their scores were not inflated. Let’s pretend we can reason with Iran. Let’s pretend that the economy will do just great when we tax the bejeesus out of the successf- er- the “rich.” Let’s pretend that the surge didn’t work, let’s pretend we can have a robust economy without drilling, and that we can be totally energy independent in 10 years with freakin’ windmills. Let’s pretend Russia’s recent behavior doesn’t matter.

While we’re at it, let’s watch utterly contrived and possibly fixed “talent shows” on TV, along with not-at-all-real “reality shows,” and, hey, why stop there? Let’s elect ourselves a “pretend” President who hails from Chicago (or is it Hawaii, or . . . Berlin?)

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:19 pm 39. Brad:

Jing: comm’on dude, in 2003 these girls weren’t even born yet, so how could they be included in a commentary. I think in China the only real qualification for serious sports, as far as maturity goes, is that you are out of diapers. Wasting children’s lives for the sake of the nation’s false image is hardly something that would stir any sense of morality in your Chinese dictocrat. Does anyone honestly think the ruling dinosaurs of China care if ages are officially altered for an advantage in the Olympics? And there can be very, very little doubt that weighing 30 lbs less means a lot on the parallel bars!
But oh my gosh — don’t pick on the chinese! It might reveal a sense of morality!

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:25 pm 40. lee:

16 year old Asian girls do not appear remarkably different from their western counterparts, although you can argue they develop somewhat later.

The disparity between the Chinese women gymanasts and their competition in general was easy to discern.

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:26 pm 41. Brad:

Is it Roderick, ‘Really’? Since when is beauty an adjective used to describe prepubs? Cute, maybe, but beauty is something that you mature into.

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:28 pm 42. Brad:

Wait, it is Roderick ‘Really’? I mean really — when does the adjective ‘beauty’ fit a prepub? Cute, perhaps. But beauty is a word that assumes some form of maturity. I know, the Chinese marathon gals were mature — so its not like it always applies.

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:31 pm 43. Joshua:

I wonder if this, along with the awarding of these Games to Beijing in the first place, isn’t all part of some clumsy, backhanded attempt by the IOC to manufacture a new Olympic superpower rivalry between the U.S. and China. Given how U.S. TV ratings have suffered since the downfall of the Soviet bloc and their vaunted sports machines, the IOC probably is desperate to rekindle some semblance of the old Cold War rivalry in order to make the Olympics relevant again in their biggest cash-cow nation, and the People’s Republic is the natural, obvious candidate for the foil the U.S. has been missing since 1992.

Aug 18, 2008 - 7:42 pm 44. Edward:

Wow Roderick, thank you so much for setting me straight. let me make sure i write that down somewhere ( admiring the Chinese team’s effort and skill and enjoying there performance more than the US teams performance = “PEDOPHILE” ) got it!!

I admit it may not have been the best choice of words ( COWS ) in descibing the US team, they are lovely young ladies as well. I am however entitled to my opinion just as you are yours. Admiring a younger womans beauty or ” Cuteness ” does not mean i am interested in having sex with them. I real like how people like you can jump to such a quick un-warranted conclusion when someone says they were inspired by a younger persons beauty or abilities. I watched the olympic gymnastics hoping to see just that ( beauty and a great performance ) the chinese team gave that to me, I am sorry they looked so young on television that anyone who may have enjoyed their effort must be a “PEDOPHILE”. Roderick Reilly – YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!

Aug 19, 2008 - 1:50 am 45. Yaeli:

Susan -my reference to Nadia was giving an answer to John’s question about how old she was in the 76 Olympics. Obviously things have changed exponentially in difficulty levels since Nadia’s time. (Jeez, she is ancient). I competed through the early 90s and coached until 2000 so I am pretty familiar with the current “scene.”

YOur point is still wrong, however. Increasing the age at which girls can compete in the Olympics is going to do nothing to decrease the level of stress, degree of training, age at which they start, and so forth at younger levels. Nada. What it is going to do is increase the amount of stress, training time and so forth for many more years (all those kids whose birthdays will miss the qualifying date will have to train for another 4 years longer). As Shawn Johnson, age 16, responded when asked if she would compete again in 2012, “Maybe, if my body holds up.”

The changes in the point system are actually going to do a lot to increase the training stresses on the younger ones and increase injuries. It is now worth it to throw tricks that you are not consistent or confident with or have bad technique on, even knowing you might crash and burn, because of the greater point value than throwing something a bit less daring but well-executed. Coaches are going to be pushing the little ones as well as the older ones to tackle things they are not prepared for as a result and really pushing them harder when they are younger so that they’ve got it under their belt before the fear factor sets in. I think we are going to see a lot more injuries.

Aug 19, 2008 - 3:44 am 46. Edward:

In response to:

Edward, China’s team was “flat out better” because it was younger. China would not have won as many medals as it has if we–and other nations–were allowed to field younger competitors.

Gordon, first – Thank you for writing an artical that has recieved such a wide varity of responses. Second – I am not blind,it is more than clear that some of these Chinese gymnists are under the required age to compete. I do not question this, nor do i think it would be beyond the Chinese goverment to provide false age documentation for these girls.
That being said, I wonder… did these “girls” just pop out of thin air on August 8th, 2008 and say ” here I am , I want to be on the gymnastic team ” ??? I don’t think so! Everyone in the world of gymnastics knew that these were the girls that China was going to use in Advance. Why wasn’t anything said before the compition began. I think everyone took a wait and see what happens approach. Now that the Chinese team actually won the team event everyone has a problem with the “age” issue.
You are right Gordon, I am sure the smaller , younger , suppler , Fearless Chinese team had an unfair advantage over everyone else, but this should have been dealt with before the compition began and not after,taking away from the awesome performance that i was previlaged enough to watch. I have to be careful now, apparently being a fan of Chinas team can get a person labelled a Pedophile…What a Sad World!

Aug 19, 2008 - 3:56 am 47. cedarford:

My guess is that if people really want to dig, they will find the answers about the Chinese girl’s ages in Customs and Visa records of countries that the little gals visited prior to the Olympics in junior competition. D.O.B is one thing many countries record.

Of course, if that shows that several were too young to compete, the Olympics Committee and International Gymnastic Federation, in a “licking China’s boots” mode on behalf of their corporate sponsors, will helpfully state that may be true on their “old passports”. But the current passports showing all the tykes were 16 are “even more valid as proof”.

On a show dealing with this controversy, a doctor stated that you can tell young pubescent’s age within a half year or so by looking at hormone levels and X-rays of bone plate growth in the hands (hips too but general advice is to avoid X-rays near rad-sensitive organs unless medically necessary.)

There is also a non-instrusive, non-ionizing radiation scan using ultrasound, I think, that also age tests by comparing the bone-cartilage ratio in teens.

And of course, the doctor didn’t mention it, but the easiest low-tech “go, no-go” test is to look at their darn teeth. Any little Chicommie claiming to be a 16-year old, when inspection shows they don’t have permanent teeth fully in yet, is a proved liar.

Edwards – that was some creepy stuff you wrote about the Chinese “Childbots”.

“(a) younger womans beauty or ” Cuteness ” does not mean i am interested in having sex with them”

“I found the Chinese team to be both beautiful and very skilled, unlike the “cows” that the United States marched out there.”

The “Childbots” showed no sign of sexual development. Watching the US Team, especially 19-year old Luikin who also has a Covergirl modeling contract perform – I saw no cows.

Aug 19, 2008 - 4:56 am 48. Gordon G. Chang:

Edward, you are right that more should have been made of the ages of the Chinese competitors beforehand. The issue did not mature until the Chinese won medals, however.

Aug 19, 2008 - 5:06 am 49. Yaeli:

Edward –it was not raised only after the Chinese team claimed the gold, the mainstream media only began reporting it heavily after that. The issue has been raised and discussed for weeks prior to the games ever beginning, starting pretty immediately after the Chinese team composition was announced.

Aug 19, 2008 - 5:14 am 50. Edward:

Gee Thanks Cedarfords!!

Way to take things out of context homie. If you had read the Whole response you would have found i was merely replying to a previous idiots asking if i was a pedophile. I said ” admiring a younger womans beauty or cuteness does N O T mean i am interested in having sex with them ” I thought the little gals were cute. is that a sin? The thought of sex actually never entered my mind, but i guess it is on a lot of you peoples. Look, we can pitch this BS back and forth all you want, I doubt any of you can get the best of me.

Aug 19, 2008 - 5:46 am 51. Assistant Village Idiot:

If folks hadn’t gotten worked up falling over themselves to call Edward a pedophile, he might have had to answer the more substantive objections. Thanks, guys.

Aug 19, 2008 - 7:21 am 52. Edward:

Well i guess all of the womens/little girls gymnastic events are over for this edition of the Olympics. As i watched the performances and the subsequent reactions from the competitors i noticed that for the most part if anything went wrong for the American gymnists they moped and pouted and sulked like spoiled children with a sence of entitlement. I also noticed that my Chinese “babies” usually reacted in a much more mature dignafied manor if things did not go as planned for them. Maybe they did not know any better being so young, their coaches must not have passed the message onto them that if you pout and frown you will get more camara time. Anyway, it was much more enjoyable watching a young smiling chinese face than a pouting sulking american face. BTW- i am your average white american guy, how just does not like watching brats pout.. the end

Aug 19, 2008 - 7:36 am 53. Edward:

Thank you A V I,

I already admitted that the chi-com infants had broken the rules or was there something else SUBSTANTIAL to go over???

Aug 19, 2008 - 7:51 am 54. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"Edward:

Wow Roderick, thank you so much for setting me straight.”"”"”"

Yeah, Yeah, “Edward,” Boo Hoo. Sure I took your remarks “out of context,” but you did the same with mine. Besides, others have remarked about your “creepy stuff” remarks. You misspoke, you are not a “pedophile,” but you misspoke, and others (such as me) reacted to your poor choice of words on that particular post. And I see that — from your subsequent posts — you still insist on “pouting” about the “pouting” Americans. I enjoyed all the gymnansts, I cheered them all on, and I’ll bet you did too, but haven’t chosen to say so because of your fixation with American “brats” versus Chinese “young ladies.” Oh, by the way, the American girls overall got more medals than the Chinese girls, ddespite being frequently short-changed on the scoring. A Chinese girl can fall on her knees in a vault and get a bronze medal. An American girl can just about stick the landing on hers and be out of the running. Go figure. I might be inclined to “pout” if I knew the judges were apparently incompetent boobs initimidated by the host country.

Also, I reacted strongly to your unintentionally creepy remarks about “beautiful” Chinese girls vs. American “cows” because one issue that young women deal with these days is the pressure to be unnaturally and unhealthily thin. For a number of years this was an especially insidious problem in women’s gymnastics. The Chinese girls are very skinny, with almost no muscle. IF they had actually been of the ages officially stated (which they sure as hell are not), then they would be aneroxic little midgets. The reason they are spindly as well as tiny is because they are still barely-pubescent children who are at least 2 years younger than the Chinese officials claim. Period. Calling healthy, solidly-built young women “cows” and spindly pre-adolescent midgets “beautiful” and “ladylike” was like putting a red flag in front a bull, with me being the bull.

Sorry, Edward, but because of your initial choice of words under the circumstances and context, you became a convenient target for my venting. Naturally, I fully expected an acerbic response from you and got one. We roll with the punches.

Aug 19, 2008 - 8:50 am 55. Edward:

Thank You Roderick,

It was never my intention to be “creepy”. I should have choosen some better verbage to express how i felt. I thought the Chinese girls seemed a little more happy or vibrant or something like that. I guess a man cannot call a young lady “Beautiful” and not have everyone think he is somekind of wierdo. Whatever, I thought they were cute, if that makes me the Devil then so be it.

I am sorry i used the word “cows”, i wish i could have that one back. I did enjoy all of the competitors as you did. Thank you for having the courage to write back.

Aug 19, 2008 - 9:51 am 56. American Judge:

Turn off the NBC Olympics and NBC all together, because the Chinese are stealing medals!!!!! What other voice do we have but to turn off NBC, tune them out, until the Olympic Officials clean up the obvious corruption of putting under age children in the games and the judging in favor of Chinese Athletes.

BEIJING – Just nine months before the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese government’s news agency, Xinhua, reported that gymnast He Kexin was 13, which would have made her ineligible to be on the team that won a gold medal this week.

Aug 19, 2008 - 10:26 am 57. Kelly:

Edward…..It is sad that a Chinese vaultist almost fell on her face after her vault and went on to win a bronze medal. That was totally stolen from the American “cow” that actually landed beautifully on her feet. China sucks and they are pathetic cheaters. The only reason they keep their gymnists is to win gold. That is the only reason these “girls” are not shipped off to camps to work. Well, they were shipped off at age 3 to win gold for their country. Pathetic country, I feel sorry for the actual people who live in China, the government needs to go. Sad….I never saw the American girls boo hoo about how they havent won. I would feel the same way if I was cheated out of a medal that I worked so hard for. I would much rather be a “Cow” then a “Commie”.

Aug 19, 2008 - 11:20 am 58. Edward:

GoodMorning World : )

Kelly, This is 2008, isn’t the whole “Commie” argument from like the 1950’s or there abouts. Frankly i think it is a non-issue these days. You are right though, i am sure it does “suck” to live in China, they do not have the freedoms that we enjoy and they do have one hell of an over-population issue. That been said, the “beautiful” : ) young ladies on their gymnastics team could not control what country they were born in, and it does not really matter to me if they were sent off to “camps”. What i saw was a team of young ladies who smiled and shined and gave a great effort out on the competion floor. I don’t know what channel you were watching but Yes the US team did “Boo Hoo” along with “pout” and “sulk” and “mope”… Yes,some of the Chinese “girls” were underage, someone should have noticed before the competion began and done something about it, but i am not going to let people tear down their effort after the fact. They WON and looked darn good doing it, So we can “commie” and “kiddie” this to death but it does not change the scoreboard China – GOLD USA – Silver in every way!!!

Aug 19, 2008 - 8:42 pm 59. rickypetterson:

I have mixed feelings about this. My first feeling was who gives a s**t. If a person is at any age to beat another person at a sport than he or she should be the champion no matter what the age. Then on the other hand I do kinda understand that Its not right to bread a child to compete no against an adult. But okay I am a fan of snowboarding. I could be wrong on the year but in 2003 a Japanese snowboarder named Kazuhiro Kokubo came in second in the U.S. Open in snowboarding half-pipe. He beat out Shaun White and almost beat Ross Powers,who by the way, just won gold in the olympics the year before. My point is that Kazu was 14 at the time and Ross was well into his 20’s. I never heard anybody say that Kazu was lighter or more fearless. Most people just called him a phenom…. My point is that I don’t buy into this whole underage s**t for gymnastics. No matter what the age is, if he or she can beat you than he or she is the world champion.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:03 am 60. Steve:

Edward:

You really don’t seem to be getting it. If China broke the rules it doesn’t matter how pretty they are or more entertaining to watch they should not be rewarded for it. So your theory is that if someone cheated and no catches it until after the fact and we happen to like them better then the person who followed the rules then oh well.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:44 am 61. Edward:

Steve:

I “get it” just fine, Again i will try to explain my point of view on this. I do not advocate “cheating”, I am a fan of fair play just like the next person. This however is a bit of a unique situation that has unfolded. This is not like a classroom were one student might be leaning over to get answers from another student and gets caught. As I said before these Chinese Gymnists did not magically pop out of poluted Hong Kong’s or Shanghi’s or Beijing’s air and say “Here I am, put me on the team” They were known about well in advance by everyone in the Gymnastic World. To allow them to begin the competion was wrong in the first place. But they were allowed to begin. And in my mind that’s where the case is closed on this. It would be horribly wrong and heartbreaking to these “Beautiful” little Chinese girls to allow them to begin the competion, Have them work their underaged rear-end’s off to win it ( which they did ) and then and only then bring up some lame-ass age excuse to try and take something away from their effort. Sure they got away with something, but the people in charge should have stepped-in a little sooner to correct the problem. Now, it’s too late… No matter what comes out in the press over the few week’s or even if the whole team is proven to be a bunch a 12 year olds ( which may not be too far from the truth ) , It would be wrong to take from them what they earned in the arena. I am sure some of them will be in London in 2012, maybe by then they will be old enough to make everyone happy.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:45 am 62. Steve:

Edward:

No, I really don’t think you do. You seem to be bending over backwards to justify cheating. So your view is just because people knew that makes it O.K.? I also find it odd you find it horribly wrong to take the medals away but it’s not horribly wrong to the people that were cheated out of medals by someone who shouldn’t have been there in the first place. Oh, and it’s not too late the IOC has retroactively taken medals away from athletes.

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:28 am 63. Edward:

Steve:

Maybe I am speaking Mandarin or something, I am not trying to “justify” cheating, The Chinese DID have an un-fair advantage using the younger gymnist, I freely admit that. It was not “OK” that people “KNEW”. I do however have a serious problem with them allowing the youngsters to actually begin ( and Finish ) competing in the events before raising this big stink. I will quote you ” people that were cheated out of medals by someone who shouldn’t have been there in the first place. ” You have made my point for me. They should not have been there. Yet they were allowed to begin competing. WHY??? I guess I am just not enough of a cold hearted bastard to present a gold medal to a young smiling face and then rip it away from her, but it sound’s like you think that would be OK. Well , good luck with that.

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:16 am 64. Edward:

I know, I know… When one is intelectually out-gunned it is pointless to keep coming back with the same lame response… but, but, but, They Cheated!!!!

You will have to do better than that my little defender of all that is RIGHT and JUST in the world. Come on Kiddo, Bring it !!!

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:47 am 65. Merry:

The baby teeth argument seems weak to me, but that might be because I am 30 years old and still have a baby tooth. I was still losing teeth in junior high and high school, too (lost one at age 16 in 10th grade… had a marvelous little gap right up front while the new tooth came in, too). I don’t think it is common, but it certainly is possible to be 16 and still be dealing with baby teeth.

The state press reports are suspicious, but if one reporter made the mistake, then others could copy it for years. I suspect cheating, but I haven’t seen the proof of it, and maybe there isn’t going to be good enough proof ever to do anything about it. If that’s the case, there’s nothing to do but let it go and push for better verification measures in the future (or lift the age ban – it was only set at 16 in 1992).

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:37 am 66. Edward:

I know you are keeping track of these post’s Gordon so I would value your input on the issue.

Having admitted that the Chinese team has infact entered underage participants and the IOC or FIG or whoever is actually incharge of the olympics did infact allow them to begin and finish the competion knowing full well in advance who it was that China was going to enter, Do you believe it would be just to take away the medals that have already been presented to these young ladies? I do not , but I expect you will disagree with me.

In any event , I would appreciate your input since this is your article.. Thank You

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:22 am 67. Steve:

Edward,

Here we go. So now your claiming the intellectuel high ground. Hold onto something. Your “intellectual” argument is they knew so let them keep it because it will hurt their feelings. Of course for someone who is so concerned about hurt feelings you still haven’t said why you don’t care about the hurt feelings of the people who played by the rules and got cheated out of medals. The fact that China has done this before makes it more indefensible but people like find nothing wrong with it. Admit it you favor the Chinese Team and are making this arugement to support them. I doubt you’d be so concerned about hurt feelings if it was some cow you didn’t like.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:50 pm 68. Edward:

You know Steve, I just got done writing this long drawn out response for about an hour and decided to delete it. My bottom line on this is, I blame the people who allowed the underage team to enter the competition to begin with. I cannot blame a group of young Chinese girls who just had their dreams become a reality. They are happy and i am happy for them. This is not their fault, they did what they were told to do and won the gold medal. I would not want to be the one to have to go up to little Miss Deng Linlin and say ” Give me that medal back little girl, you are a cheater! ” and have to see the look on her little brokenhearted face. The adults who made the bad decisions are to blame here, not the girls, so yes i am concerned about their feelings. You do not take something like a gold medal away from a child because the adults around her made the wrong choice. I don’t know maybe i am wrong on this, i think i am just being human…

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:20 pm 69. Steve:

Edward

I don’t blame the Chinese girls. They only did what they were told. The sleazy actions of the Chinese goverment caused this and letting the girls keep their medals only let’s China now that they can pretty much do whatever they feel like and get away with it. No I wouldn’t want to be the one to have to tell her to give back the medal but on the other hand would you want to be the one who has to tell the girl who would have won that she didn’t because the other team cheated but hey were not going to do anything about it. I would guess that she would be pretty heartbroken. Either way you cut it someone’s feelings are going to be hurt. My view is to be fair to the people who did what they were suppose to do and not reward those who don’t.

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:41 pm 70. Edward:

Steve:

I do see your point, corruption should not be rewarded, in this we are in agreement.

But breaking that little gymnist’s ( Deng Linlin ) Heart would be too steep a price to pay in my eyes. She was the only one a really connected with watching the olympics. NO , i am not a wierdo- she reminds me of my daughter.

I understand your point of view completely, I hope you can understand mine.

Sorry about that Intellectual non-sense earlier, you seem like a pretty bright guy after all.

Take Care

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:12 pm 71. Pajamas Media » China’s Revealing Spectacle of Lies:

[...] of the Chinese themselves. From faked CGI opening ceremony fireworks to “16-year-old” gymnasts, China has squashed the arguments of the supra-national idealists like it squashed the Tiananmen [...]

Aug 21, 2008 - 1:04 am 72. Edward:

GoodMorning World,

This should be my last entry as i am pretty sure this web page will be down every soon, this issue seems to be losing some steam.

As i have consided to my new buddy Steve, the Chinese Womans/Girls Gymnastics Team has infact CHEATED. CHEATING is wrong and should not be rewarded. Fine, well let’s lock-up the little rule breakers in some work camp near outer Mongolia. There they can mine for coal or perhaps some other natural resources that will help keep all of our lightbulb’s running or keep us warm and comfortable during our harsh winter season.

And by all means, let’s give the Gold Medal’s back to their rightful owners, The Heroic US team, who I promise you cares more about their pending endorsment deals than actually winning gold. I would have loved to have seen their pouting , sulking , moping faces on my next box of “Wheaties”, but i guess they would have needed to actually win the gold for that, and they didn’t. And THAT is truely what this is all about.

Anyone who actually think’s it would be “OK” to take away the Gold Medal’s that the Chinese Team EARNED after they were allowed to begin the competion in the first place is very unrealistic.

No-one has bothered to address my point in all of this, W H Y ???????? were they allowed to begin competing if there were questions about their ages in the first place. To let them get all the away through the competion, have them WIN it, and only then start-up with this ” Gee, does’nt she look kind of young ” business, is just IDIOTIC.

You know, had the US team actually beatin the Chinese Team than none of this would have been an issue, Corporate America would have been content, money would have been made, and everyone would have been Happy. But i guess we can’t sell as many boxes of Wheaties with young beautiful smiling chinese faces on the cover now can we???

I know in my heart I am RIGHT on this issue, but I welcome your opinions.

Aug 21, 2008 - 6:23 am 73. Commentary » Blog Archive » Third Place?:

[...] devotion to maintaining an East German-like sports development program and its commitment to cheating. As he notes, the mighty Chinese state has just sentenced two elderly women–one 77 and the [...]

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:15 am 74. Timothy D:

Thanks for pulling together the information on this, Gordon. As someone who used to compete in gymnastics for the US internationally, I know that there is always gamesmanship, but what the Chinese did in this case is really beyond the pale, and terribly unfair to the US girls who worked all their lives and have the right to expect that their competitors are playing by the rules. I didn’t mind getting the silver, but it made me feel sick to lose to a team that was clearly cheating.

Edward, they were allowed to begin the competition because the FIG was unwilling to stand up against China, the organizers of the games. The reason it became a bigger issue after the competition began is (1) the world was able to take a look at these girls, who are obviously, obviously not sixteen, and (2) more evidence came to light. It’s not that hard to understand. Does the fact that they won have anything to do with it? It probably brought more attention on them, and made more journalists take a closer look. But you’ve got to remember that this is the first time the international media (by and large, excepting the NYT report months earlier) got to take a look at these girls.

I know that it can be difficult for westerners to gauge the ages of Asian women; my wife is Chinese, and I’ve spent all my life in Asian-Am communities. These girls were not sixteen. According to the Sports Illustrated reporter, the Chinese media (by their own admission) know that these girls are around 14, but they can say nothing for fear of losing their jobs or worse.

Ultimately, Edward, the Chinese gymnasts performed exceptionally well, and it’s not their fault. It is the fault of the governing body, and of a China so desperate to prove themselves on the international stage that they would stop at nothing. But putting these girls at risk, betraying every other team in the arena by not playing by the agreed-upon rules, and betraying the spirit of fair competition–absolutely the golds should be taken away.

Also, Edward, if the medals are taken away, the Chinese girls will probably become even more beloved as a result. They’re not going to become coal miners. The country will rally around them, I’m sure. And the US girls have behaved perfectly well. Were they sad they lost? Of course they were. But the way you’ve attacked them is unfair, when they’ve been nothing but gracious and complimentary toward the Chinese.

Ultimately nothing’s going to happen, because the FIG and IOC are spineless and China would throw the biggest hissy fit you’ve ever seen. They don’t want to know the answer. But we all know the answer. They cheated; they excelled especially on the bars, where a smaller body is a *huge* advantage; and all the other girls in that arena who had trained all their lives deserved an even field of play.

Aug 22, 2008 - 6:56 am 75. Edward:

Thank you Timothy D,

I respect your opinion and your well thought-out response. Yours is the best arguement i had read against my point of view and I really appreciate you taking the time to write it out. It is certainly more compelling to me than just reading everyone cry “CHEATERS, CHEATERS, CHEATERS”

I completely respect your opinion Timothy, I do however disagree.

My arguement is this,

If I were the governing body for an event as big as the olympics, i would make damn sure that all of my contestants had checked out prior to BEGINNING their events in terms of age. Age is not like a drug test. you do not check for age before and after the events to see if everyone passes. You get it right before the events begin.

If they had done that then we would not be going through this BS right now, Good Luck to the person that has to go up to little Miss Deng Linlin and say ” Give me that Gold Medal back little girl, You are a cheater ” and have to see the look on her little brokenhearted face.

Perhaps i am being a tad one-side in my point of view. That is because the Chinese team have endeared themselves to my heart and i do feel compelled to protect the feeling’s of those little girls. I see them being attacked in all of this, and that does not sit well with me.

Thank you again for taking the time to write-out your point of view. It does mean a lot to me.

Edward

Aug 22, 2008 - 12:09 pm 76. Timothy D:

Edward, thanks for the kind comments. I don’t know whether you’ll still be checking this board, but I may as well offer my thoughts.

You’re certainly right that the FIG should have taken care of the matter in advance–and probably the Americans should have made sure that they did so. I don’t know what went on behind the scenes. Perhaps the Americans raised the issue, but the FIG was not willing to pursue it. Perhaps they did not raise the issue in the way they should have.

I think you should consider the consequences of your recommendation, though. It amounts to, ‘As long as we don’t catch you cheating beforehand, we’re not going to take the medal away from you afterward, even if we discover that you were cheating.’ If this were the policy, then teams could try to cheat, and wait and see whether the FIG would catch them; if the FIG stopped them, then they would pick different athletes who are over 16; if the FIG did not stop them, then they would field their underage athletes.

Ultimately, if the medal is taken away, it is the fault of the national team that decided to cheat in the first place–not the fault of the officials who run the sport or of the other teams who complained. If one cheats, one does not have the right to complain that you were not caught early enough.

Anyway, I think you can breathe easy, because I cannot imagine that the FIG really wants to get to the bottom of this, or that there will be sufficient proof that they were underage. So I think the Chinese girls will keep their medals. The girls did a fantastic job, and they seem really sweet. I really did not blame them at all; I blamed the coaches and administrators who decided to falsify papers and put underage girls in danger, and in general the oppressive sporting culture in China, ahead of these Games, that has been so determined to win medals that they have been willing to bend the rules. I only wonder what other rules were bent in other sports.

I love Chinese culture and the Chinese people–but I despise the government that constrains their freedom. I was hoping that this would not be a huge PR victory for the communist party, but I wanted the Games to reflect well on the Chinese people. Mostly it has.

Aug 23, 2008 - 7:54 pm 77. Edward:

Timothy,

Your are RIGHT. Though I have never competed in a Gymnastic event I do compete in a sport at a professional level. My sport is Bowling, and regardless of the sport CHEATING is wrong. I do imagine that if I had worked hard over a 50 game tournament and I missed the finals by one spot because another bowler had falsified his score and ended up beating me, I would be in a pretty bad mood as well.

In this case my compassion for the feelings of these young ladies has clouded my better judgement. My “auto-defense mechanism” kicked in because all I was reading about was how horrible the chinese are and how bad the girls are not only on this board but on several different blog’s regarding this subject. There was only so much of the “pretty american girls” and the “ugly cheating chinese girls” that I could take, so I was willing to go to WAR on their behalf.

Ultimately Timothy, Your are right, Cheating should not be rewarded and if the medals are taken away from the Chinese girls, then I guess that is the RIGHT thing to do to send a message to their government that this sort of thing will not be tolerated.

I have no real problem with the American girls, they competed fairly, although I did tend to notice that they “pouted” and “frowned” a bit, Maybe the camera was on them at in-opertune moments. And sure, it does not real matter that I thought the Chinese girls were “cuter”, that is just my opinion.

The funny thing is after all this, one would think that I must be Chinese.

WHY would your average white guy from San Diego, CA care so much about the feelings of young Chinese girls he has never met???

Wish I had the answer to.

Aug 24, 2008 - 12:17 pm 78. Timothy D:

That’s really amazing, Edward. I sometimes despair of these online conversations, and whether they ever really change anyone’s mind. I guess sometimes enough time passes, and the heat of the moment passes, and one sees things differently. Probably the jerks who were participating in the conversation earlier did not help matters, and you were right to object to their criticisms of the girls themselves.

I hate to admit this, but I had assumed that you were of Chinese descent, like you said. Partly it was because Edward is a fairly common Chinese-English name, and partly because you were defending the Chinese team. But I guess you just connected with those performers and were proud of how well they performed. You certainly have powers of empathy.

I’ve been to China a few times, and worked with a Chinese-American church in New Jersey, and the Chinese and Chinese-American kids I’ve met have all just been really fantastic and sweet kids. I find a lot of corrupting influences in American youth culture, but these kids were mostly free of those things.

Anyway, it doesn’t look like the medals will be taken away, and I’m sure these Chinese girls have very good things ahead of them. I checked some of the Chinese news websites, and none of them have mentioned the controversy. Most of China probably has no idea about it–and even if they do, they’ll certainly side with the girls (if San Franciscans can rally around Barry Bonds, surely one of the least likeable personalities in sports, then I’m sure the Chinese will rally around these very cute and sweet and hard-working girls). So I think you can be comfortable in your hope that as they sail forward into their lives in the future, far beyond our view, they will be sailing to welcoming shores.

All the best, Tim

Aug 25, 2008 - 7:09 am 79. champ:

American sore losers getting emotional and biting IOC like a mad dog after getting owned fair square.

Learn the difference between unable to disapprove and will not disapprove.

Chinese athletes’ bodies do not grow much; American people’s brains in general do not grow at all.

Aug 26, 2008 - 9:59 pm 80. gymnastics:

[...] gymnast must turn that age no later than sometime this year. In gymnastics, prepubescent female comphttp://pajamasmedia.com/blog/children-stealing-gold-in-beijing/Gymnastics – About.comTraining tips, sports science, news, games, and [...]

Sep 1, 2008 - 5:57 pm 81. Sarah Palin Fan:

This illustrates a fundamental truth of rules and regulations: Whether you break a rule is not as important as whether someone can prove it.

Do you want to start a list of things that Americans did (or did not do) but no one can prove? No. Because there’s no point in arguing about them (even if they include rape and murder) if nothing can ever be proven.

So, if you can’t prove anything, I think the obvious thing to do is to bitch about it incessantly over online blogs that do not matter.

Good job Americans. Why don’t you go work on not destroying the world’s economy, instead of bitching about whether someone has baby teeth.

Oct 17, 2008 - 2:51 pm

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