Pajamas Media

118 Comments

1. ked5:

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan announced his country will ask the UN Security Council to discuss the ethnic rioting that has scarred China’s Xinjiang region this week. Then he upped the rhetoric. “The incidents in China are, simply put, a genocide,” Erdogan said on Friday. “There’s no point in interpreting this otherwise.”

~~~~~

Gee, there’s just something in those words, can’t quite place it, could it be, FLAMING hypocrisy? (pot, meet kettle)
What the Chinease are doing in no way compares to what the Turks did to the Armenians. The Turks could give lessons on how to commit real genocide and get away with it.

Jul 11, 2009 - 1:55 am 2. Anonymous:

Not all but many statements are not correct and some are totally untrue. At least, no one in China refer Chinese as Han. The misunderstanding comes from the English words. In English, Chinese also means the language which Chinese people speak, but in Chinese, the Chinese( Language) is called Han Language (汉语）. I know why you say the last dynasty of Chinese is Ming, but it is obvious not true. Qing and Yuan dynasty is definitely happened in China and is Chinese history. If you really care about our Chinese muslim brothers and sisters, at least do some serious research and don’t lie. It’s very convenient to use lie to support your purpose, but it harms your reputation.

Jul 11, 2009 - 2:37 am 3. gboisjo:

The Chinese don’t trust Muslims. Sure they will do business with them but the actions of Islam as whole around the world should lay caution to anyone with a half a brain. After 911 and similar incidents in the world the Chinese took a strong stand against Muslim Terrorism. Who can blame them for that. These are the same Unigars who threatened to blow up the olympics last year. They were seen on the Internet looking alot like any radical Muslim Jihadist. How the authors obvious dislike for Chinese Socialism can trump the reality of unrest in that region of China is gives me pause…

Jul 11, 2009 - 3:09 am 4. Mike2:

The Chinese get no grief from the Muslim nations because they mean business and are willing to carry it out. The Muslims respect nothing so much as strength AND the willingness to use it.

Jul 11, 2009 - 3:20 am 5. vivo:

“China’s slaughter of Uighurs and the systematic destruction of their culture has been met with an eerie silence from Muslim nations. Why?”

Is it because other countries leave their governments to deal with foreign situations and the citizens know they can’t do much about it? Or don’t care?

Jul 11, 2009 - 4:11 am 6. Vaughn:

China appears to be the only country with the vision to see Islam as the cancer it is. Also, America is the only country held to standards, no other nation is required to meet.

Jul 11, 2009 - 4:15 am 7. gordo 12:

The Muslim world is afraid of China. China could care less about human rights, so if you are muslim and are rocking the boat, bye bye.

Racial profiling, you bet.

I do not agree with the Chinese methods, however I admire their focus.

Here in the US we focus nothing. I am afraid the US is now a soft target with no teeth to bite back and the radical Muslims know this.

All the sacrafice destroyed by the selfishness of a few.( not my words, heard it elsewhere and liked it.)

Jul 11, 2009 - 4:30 am 8. Blackwater:

I’ve noticed a lot of admiration from islamists of China. They seem to like China because they see China as the future destroyer of the Western world and inspirational for muslims since they’ve shown you can still economically develope while still being facists who mistreat their citizens. Which is music to islamists ears. The Chinese also do business with anyone. They’ll sell you missilies, hacked Pentagon secrets, you name it.

Jul 11, 2009 - 5:23 am 9. Another Chuck:

why? Because they know that unlike the pussy West the Chinese will squash them like bugs.

Jul 11, 2009 - 5:23 am 10. John Samford:

Simple, Muslims don’t place the same value on human life as the west does. China doesn’t either.
Human rights is a new idea, one that was invented by an affluent, secular, decadent weatern civilization. The rest of the world is a looong ways from co-signing that idea. The 3rd world despots that control most of the 6 Billion human lives on this planet are willing to pay lip service to ‘human rights’ when they can gain a political advantage from doing so. Other then that human rights is seen as the threat it is to them.

You are being very American to think otherwise. Americans think 100 years is a long time, 3rd worlders think 100 miles is a long ways. I know that isn’t how the quote goes, but it still works.
If the USA keeps pounding away at the human rights thangie, in another century or three, the rest of the world might listen. Might. Obama’s depression might even be over by then. Hope springs eternal. Meanwhile the Chinese kill some muslims. So What? It’s not like their is a shortage of them. The Islamic despots won’t say anything to China because that is where they will get weapons when it gets down to a shooting war with the west. Remember, Muslims Don’t manufacture any heavy weapons. Egypt assembles MBT’s from kits provided in the USA, but there isn’t a snowballs chance in ‘ell of Egypt manufacturing the components of those kits. Iran makes artillery and small arms. Both copies of obsolete Soviet systems.
Obsolete weapons will still kill you. No Islamic nation manufactires it’s own jet fighters, Attack Heliocopters, guided missiles (Iran claims to, but they still buy Milan’s, which would make their claim a lie) IFV’s or APC’s, or any of the many other weapons systems needed by a modern military.
The Islamic conversion of the West isn’t strictly or even mainly a military effort, but it might be one day.
If the west starts treating the Islamic infiltration of it’s culture and territory in the same way China is ( the subject of this article), then China will become a valuable source of weapons. Not very good weapons, but better then no weapons. So the Chinese can kill as many Muslims as they want. ONLY THE WEST WILL CARE!
Remember, the Chinese have 1.2 billion humans crammed into less space then America fits it’s 300 million. So If China decides to respond to the Islamic infiltration of it’s culture and territory by killing all those Muslims and moving 50 or 60 million Chinese into that now empty space, There is NOTHING anyone can do about it, Rather then come face to face with their lack of power, both Islam and the West will look the other way.
The technical term is politics. Remember, non-consensual governments act by the natural laws of politics as laid down by Machiavelli. Consensual governments (Democracies) follow a different set of laws and tend to forget that despots and tyrants have a different playbook.

Stalin said it best; “The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic.” The bloody old Tyrant should know.

Jul 11, 2009 - 5:26 am 11. Blackwater:

Also forgot to add that they know the Chinese don’t mess around. They’ll spy on you on the internet, in real life and they’ll throw you in a prison and steal your organs or simply ethnically clease you without any concern for human rights and inernational condemnation. If your an al queda or taliban type they’ll simply arrest you and execute you. Simple as that. They don’t send you to Bermuda. They don’t give you art classes. They don’t give you lawyers. They don’t jail you for 4 years and then let you go. They kill you or force you to work in hard labor camps. In that sense atleast the Chinese got something right. The Western world is way too soft on islamists and criminals in general.

Jul 11, 2009 - 5:29 am 12. David W. Lincoln:

Tarek Fatah comments on this over here —>
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/07/09/tarek-fatah-no-muslim-outcry-over-battered-uighurs.aspx

It boils down to this: Muslims know full well the double standard inherent in that “faith tradition”.

When you have very Arab characteristics being the driving force, is it surprising that we see this.

After all, it is very Arab to see brother vs. brother in the family, family vs. family in the clan, clan vs. clan in the tribe, tribe vs. tribe
and all tribes vs. those who are not Arab.

Also, check to see the writings of Philip Carl Salzman about tribalism.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/01/10/philip-carl-salzman-muhammad-s-tribe.aspx

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/01/11/philip-carl-salzman-why-arabs-suffer.aspx

Jul 11, 2009 - 6:27 am 13. "progressive"watch:

It is very hard for me to support human rights for people who don’t support human rights. The Chinese are destroying human rights,but the Uighurs would do it to the Chinese in spades if they could. Well,I do support human rights,but I’m not too upset that a Muslim group doesn’t have them. Muslim groups inside and outside of China don’t have human rights,because Muslim groups seldom recognize human rights.

Jul 11, 2009 - 6:28 am 14. David W. Lincoln:

But also keep in mind, the same odiousness that drives the Beijing Politburo also drives the sons of Allah.

Jul 11, 2009 - 6:30 am 15. Dave ll:

You ask “why” the silence…but your answer is right there in the previous paragraph:

“..Beijing employs brute force.”

If radical Islam knows anything, it’s that a brutal heavy-handed response by China is a “no-win” situation for them. Israel has recognized this years ago and survives because of it.

China, with it’s internal security apparati(?), remoteness and geographic terrain, and the unparalled advantage of it’s SIZE, is pretty much immune to whatever the Muslim world wants to throw its way…be it a terrorist attack or a meaningless resolution from the UN. All such efforts, even silly boycotts and demonstrations, are like a fly buzzing around an elephant.

Thanks for the insight on this relatively unknown part of the world.

Jul 11, 2009 - 7:04 am 16. Thomas L......:

I deplore and condemn the Chinese method of dealing with any resistance to their regime but I sympathize with anyone who has to deal with the growing threat of Islamification. The Dutch and much of Europe are in the process of surrender. Hopefully, there is some middle ground.

Jul 11, 2009 - 7:15 am 17. tennesseebob:

I’d say that it all boils down to a clash between two societies, each wanting to dominate the world. At this point, I’m cheering on the Chinese. Go Beijing! Go!

Jul 11, 2009 - 7:47 am 18. Bob in VA:

Could a much simpler explanation be that China appears to be the only market devouring Mid-east oil? Wtih the global recession, the price per barrel has plummeted the last few weeks. Mid-east emirs need the dough to keep their populations in check. In China, the emphasis is always on stabilitiy (no rocking the boat). The Mid-east emirs know the same lesson – stability – keep their citizens happy with the windfalls from oil sales or else face what Iran regime is facing.

Jul 11, 2009 - 8:37 am 19. Calatrava:

“The Han and the Uighurs come from different racial stock, speak different languages, and practice different religions”

Does it mean they cannot belong to the same country as full citizens?

“The Uighurs, not surprisingly … reject Chinese rule.”

Of course, they want Sharia. I would not wish Sharia to anyone, even to comunist China!

Jul 11, 2009 - 8:48 am 20. John Oliver Kyle Utley, II:

The author refers to the Uighurs as from different racial stock, implying that this is a valid reason for them not to be considered Chinese, even though they live in China and are citizens of that country.

President Obama is from a different racial stock from most of America. So too, is the author. Does this make them less American?

The author appears very hostile to China in general in most of his appearances in the media. It isn’t just a question of the ChiComs this time; it’s a question of why he uses racial analogies that would be patently out of place in connection with the United States.

Jul 11, 2009 - 8:51 am 21. Strawman:

A Turk talking about genocide. That’s rich.

Jul 11, 2009 - 9:04 am 22. Marie Claude:

Blackwater, I share your analyse

yet it’s aleatory “dangerous” to enterprise businesses in China, they arrest you without a clear motive if they want to get the argument

contested methods of China businesses domains

Jul 11, 2009 - 9:53 am 23. Sally/n.o.:

’cause they’re “scared” of China…

The US speaks and people of the world shake their heads and laugh…

China speaks and the world snaps to….China is not afraid , period. Also, it’s government seems to have few morals. One of the world’s biggest polluters, send Gore to deal with this situation..

It is scarey how indebted we are to Chins, infact, it’s totally disgustng. But we smile and keep buying….

Jul 11, 2009 - 10:25 am 24. Jim Baker:

For the why of this situation, look first at the natural resources to be exploited in this region of communist China. Another fine mess created by another big government.

Jul 11, 2009 - 10:37 am 25. Fafnir:

I agree with many commenters that there are certainly enough muslims that the planet will not miss a few (a lot)(all). For once I am also in agreement with Justice Ginsburg when she tells a Slate reporter that Roe vs Wade (abortion) was instituted to rid the USA of undesirables. I just wonder which “undesirables” Ruth Ginsburg wants eliminated. Me thinks Ruth’s list of undesirable would include me. My wish is that the Earth’s population be cut in half losing all populations but DRAGONS, White Anglo Saxon Protestants, and servants.

Jul 11, 2009 - 10:49 am 26. jw:

Why were the Uighurs in Guantanamo Bay captured from Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan? Why did President Obama free them and use unauthorized U.S. taxdollars to settle them in Bermuda and Palau? What actually happened in China – did Uighur terrorists, trained by Al Qaeda, organize the riots?

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:19 am 27. Christopher:

The Uighurs of today are not the same as 100’s of years ago. They are now Islamists.

Not a word about all the murders and damage that they Uighurs took part in. Hopefully one day the West will wake up and stop falling for the Muslims are the victims con.

Here is the damage that they did.
Pictures of the Recent Muslim Riots in China

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/07/pictures-of-recent-muslim-riots-in.html

The Han are advancing the Uighurs do not want to. That is their problem. Muslims play the victim card across the world. The author should educate himself to this fact.

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:20 am 28. Christopher:

From another article.

The government often says the Uighurs should be grateful for the roads, railways, schools, hospitals and oil fields it has been building in Xinjiang, a region known for scorching deserts and snowy mountain ranges.
Many Uighurs (pronounced WEE-gers) haven’t been wooed by the rapid economic development. Some want independence, while others feel they’re being marginalized in their homeland. The Han — China’s ethnic majority — have been flooding into Xinjiang as the region becomes more developed.

A Han Chinese shopkeeper, who only gave his surname Wang because the ethnic issue is so sensitive, disagreed. “Those who cause such trouble are criminals,” he said. “They’re never happy with what they have.”
Muslims always play the victim card.

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:25 am 29. Steve:

Now I guess we know why the Uighurs that were held in Gitmo were sent to Palau (or are supposed to be) and Bermuda. I think they would have been treated the same way even if we sent them back home, and am pretty sure they would be some of those protesting in the streets. They were in a training camp for terrorists and they are Muslims and as such would be against all religions not Muslim especially the United States.

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:42 am 30. Left Coast Mike:

I’m with China on this issue. Muslims are a threat to America.

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:55 am 31. abi:

muslims are seldom,.. if ever.., victims, they create victims by hiding behind religion. disgusting.

Of course B.O. cannot overtly hide behind the religious card, but we do see his leanings…He is also afraid of China.

Say what you will, cite anything you want, cry, scream….
……………china will do as she pleases, period. a grand ancient society and it will stay and do as it pleases, sorry for the peopole.

Yeah, china cares what the US/US says..NOT She laughs at us and gobbles up our money.

Jul 11, 2009 - 12:05 pm 32. njcommuter:

I’ve concluded that thinking about China as a country in the European sense is a mistake. It is closer to the Roman Empire. It is willing to use its territories as thralls to supply its center. It is preoccupied with border security–with some reason, historically. On this last point, if you check the maps you will see that China has expanded its borders to mountain ranges. This is true in Xizjiang, just as it is true next to Korea. It is in China’s interest to have a weak puppet regime on the other side of the mountains, and if it can’t have a puppet, it can have a regime that is hostile to everyone else and dependent upon China. There’s no place for hostile armies to mass, and no place for them to enter. On the other hand, once the border IS breached somewhere, everything is in danger. But the large spaces make an elastic defense possible and invite a war of counterattack.

Geography shapes strategy and commerce; strategy and commerce shape states. Strategy, like politics, is an art of the possible.

Jul 11, 2009 - 1:46 pm 33. Ole Sarge:

# 16 Bob,

There is no middle ground with the muslims.

Jul 11, 2009 - 2:54 pm 34. Bigger Diggler:

This is the new way of war against the muslims, after the failed US debacle in Iraq, with its insane concern for human rights, UN opinions, collateral damage, media saturation, soldiers as armed social workers, lawfare, etc etc.

The same thing happened when Ethiopia invaded Somalia. When Russia anihilated Chechnya.

Jul 11, 2009 - 4:18 pm 35. ked5:

21. Strawman:

A Turk talking about genocide. That’s rich.

~~~

It’s a Turk *complaining* about genocide. they could give lessons.

Jul 11, 2009 - 4:48 pm 36. dan:

i think it’s been made crystal clear over the last eight years that muslims in general dont care about this kind of thing – its communists who like to make it into a big PR stick to beat the USA with. china is a communist country. you do the math, muchachos. there is no other rational explanation. no muslim actually believes china will retaliate against them significantly – except with words – particularly when china is even more energy-neurotic and middleeast-dependent than we are.

the answer is active measures. this entire “muslim reformation,” “global caliphate” crap is active measures, even if its agents believe in it. wake up.

Jul 11, 2009 - 5:06 pm 37. Gary Ogletree:

Islam sucks, Chinese communists suck. No contest. The issue is colonization in the 21st century. East Turkestan is getting the same treatment as Tibet, becoming a second class minority in their own country, with no history of being part of China until Mao’s invasion. Let’s not be upset, Hillary wants China to buy our debt. And some more later, and then some more.

Jul 11, 2009 - 7:03 pm 38. The Skizzerd of Waz:

The muslim world ain’t the only one that China has muzzled.

Anybody hear a peep out of the USA about this incident? Nope! Probably because the Chinese own us lock, stock, and third mortgaged barrel. I’m no big fan of the muslim world, but call a spade a spade for crying out loud.

Truth of the matter is the one-worlder’s have won. They own the soul of the US government and we’ll never hear a squat from Uncle Sam unless Soros and his ilk approve it.

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:05 pm 39. Glass:

Sheer brute force is both understood and used by Muslims, that is one thing they understand. Our “leaders” have absolutely no comprehension how the immediate use of force works as a deterrent, we prefer to suffocate thousands quietly over a period of time to appear civilized.

Jul 11, 2009 - 11:21 pm 40. Blackwater:

What the Chinese are doing to them is nothing new. It’s a common Chinese tactic. They did the same thing to the Tibetans. Ruthlessly defeat you militarily, bus in tens of millions of ethnic Chinese civilians and thus turn the native people into minorities, destroy the local culture entirely, build infrastructure, and then claim they helped raise the standard of living of the area and that they should be thankful for it. Once that’s happened they’ve already won. They know there’s no going back now. The only way to return things back to the way they used to be is to carry out a genocide of the ethnic Chinese civilian invaders. Something which most likely will never happen. The same thing is happening to the entire Western world except in our case we’re inviting the immigrant invasions. We’re even inviting swordless islamist invaders for God sakes and turning our backs as tens of millions of hispanic low lifes invade our country illegally. The West is doomed if we don’t start waking up to these politically incorrect realities. No, muslims becoming the majority in Europe will not be a good thing. Neiher will hispanics beoming the majoirty in America. Call me racist or islamophobic all you want. We all know it’s the truth.

Jul 12, 2009 - 12:50 am 41. Kabud:

>36. dan
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fobozrevatel.com%2Fnews_print%2F2008%2F8%2F26%2F255012.htm

Jul 12, 2009 - 12:58 am 42. Gordon Chang:

ked5, you wrote: “What the Chinease are doing in no way compares to what the Turks did to the Armenians. The Turks could give lessons on how to commit real genocide and get away with it.”

Yes, you’re right. But Turkey’s acts were long ago, and this is now. In any event, the recent events in Turkey are evidence of a change in the Muslim view of China.

Jul 12, 2009 - 4:50 am 43. Gordon Chang:

Anonymous, Beijing uses the term “Han,” which has become embedded in the Chinese language.

As for your other point, I did not state the last dynasty was Ming.

Jul 12, 2009 - 4:54 am 44. Gordon Chang:

gboisjo, have the Uighurs engaged in terrorism in China? Yes, but those incidents have been few and far between. More often, they have committed violent acts, acts that were directed against the state and not civilians (and, therefore, not terrorist in nature).

The recent violence was triggered by the reaction of security forces and resembles a race riot more than anything else.

Jul 12, 2009 - 4:59 am 45. Gordon Chang:

Mike2, you write: “The Chinese get no grief from the Muslim nations because they mean business and are willing to carry it out.” I agree.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:00 am 46. Gordon Chang:

vivo, yes, but Muslims seemed to care about what we do. We don’t get a free pass. The Chinese should not either.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:02 am 47. Gordon Chang:

Vaughn, you wrote: “Also, America is the only country held to standards, no other nation is required to meet.” Thanks for pointing this out.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:03 am 48. Gordon Chang:

gordo 12, you wrote: “The Muslim world is afraid of China.”

Yes, but they will be less so when it becomes apparent that the Chinese economy is failing–as it is in reality–and that Chinese society has become unstable–which it has been for some time.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:05 am 49. Gordon Chang:

Blackwater, you write: “I’ve noticed a lot of admiration from islamists of China. They seem to like China because they see China as the future destroyer of the Western world and inspirational for muslims since they’ve shown you can still economically develope while still being facists who mistreat their citizens.”

You highlight a trend of the hardline states banding together, led by the giants, China and Russia. Thanks for pointing this out.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:07 am 50. Gordon Chang:

Another Chuck, you wrote: “why? Because they know that unlike the pussy West the Chinese will squash them like bugs.”

Yes, it is better to be feared than loved, it has been said. But Americans, to our credit, don’t think this way.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:10 am 51. Gordon Chang:

John Samford, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I understand everything you write, but now public opinion is starting to become important in Muslim nations, and YouTube and other sites are beginning to have an effect.

People are people, and what China is doing in Xinjiang is abhorrent. Now that we are beginning to see what is happening there, we will witness change in the Muslim world.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:15 am 52. Gordon Chang:

Blackwater, you wrote: “They don’t send you to Bermuda.” Those guys, who are Uighurs, were innocent. China, it is believed, told us they were terrorists, but they were clearly not.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:18 am 53. Gordon Chang:

David W. Lincoln, thanks for the links. Now I know what I’m doing today.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:20 am 54. Gordon Chang:

“progressive”watch, okay, but, if the Uighurs got their way, they would have their own country and, I’m sure, the Han would move out on their own accord. In any event, let’s not prejudge what a Uighur state would do.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:21 am 55. Gordon Chang:

David W. Lincoln, you wrote: “But also keep in mind, the same odiousness that drives the Beijing Politburo also drives the sons of Allah.”

Really? What do you think they are?

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:23 am 56. Gordon Chang:

Dave ll, you are right that, up to now, China has been immune. Yet the world is changing faster than it ever has, so much of what we know today could change, China’s immunity among them.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:25 am 57. Gordon Chang:

Thomas L……, you write: “I deplore and condemn the Chinese method of dealing with any resistance to their regime but I sympathize with anyone who has to deal with the growing threat of Islamification. The Dutch and much of Europe are in the process of surrender. Hopefully, there is some middle ground.”

You raise important points, but remember that the Uighurs are not trying to convert anyone. They just want to be left alone.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:26 am 58. Gordon Chang:

tennesseebob, you wrote: “I’d say that it all boils down to a clash between two societies, each wanting to dominate the world. At this point, I’m cheering on the Chinese. Go Beijing! Go!”

You are not going to want to live in a Beijing-centric world.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:28 am 59. Gordon Chang:

Bob in VA, interesting theory, but this Muslim silence has been going on long before China became a net oil purchaser.

In any event, China’s oil needs will go down as its economy erodes, as it is beginning to do.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:31 am 60. Gordon Chang:

Calatrava, we do not know how the Uighurs would organize their society. And remember, they found themselves inside the Chinese tent by conquest. They want out, and, in this case, that’s understandable.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:33 am 61. Gordon Chang:

John Oliver Kyle Utley, II, you wrote: “It isn’t just a question of the ChiComs this time; it’s a question of why he uses racial analogies that would be patently out of place in connection with the United States.”

I am rebutting the Beijing position.

As for your other point about the United States, my dad came to America voluntarily, and the Uighurs were conquered.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:36 am 62. Gordon Chang:

Strawman, you wrote: “A Turk talking about genocide. That’s rich.”

Yes, China is not catching a break these days. A signal of the times?

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:37 am 63. Gordon Chang:

Marie Claude, yes, it’s fairly easy to get arrested in China these days.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:39 am 64. Gordon Chang:

Sally/n.o., but as American savings rates go up, we can make a decision to buy our own debt. Now, if only Washington would stop spending. Deficit spending is now a national security issue.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:40 am 65. Gordon Chang:

Jim Baker, you write: “For the why of this situation, look first at the natural resources to be exploited in this region of communist China. Another fine mess created by another big government.”

Yes, you’re right. And Beijing wants a buffer between its traditional territory and Central Asia.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:42 am 66. Gordon Chang:

jw, you write: “Why were the Uighurs in Guantanamo Bay captured from Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan? Why did President Obama free them and use unauthorized U.S. taxdollars to settle them in Bermuda and Palau? What actually happened in China – did Uighur terrorists, trained by Al Qaeda, organize the riots?”

China is thought to have fingered the Gitmo Uighurs, who clearly were innocent of any crimes against the United States.

And there is no evidence of Al Quaeda involvement in the recent incidents. If there was, there would have been a lot more dead Han.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:45 am 67. Gordon Chang:

Christopher, maybe you’re right, but what would you do if you were treated like one of China’s Uighurs? I would defend my family at any cost, and you might too.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:47 am 68. Gordon Chang:

Steve, the Gitmo Uighurs were cleared of any crimes against the U.S. If there was any evidence they were terrorists, they would not have been released, no?

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:49 am 69. Gordon Chang:

Left Coast Mike, how were the Uighurs a threat to America?

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:50 am 70. Gordon Chang:

abi, well, we should not be afraid of any other nation, especially China. Being afraid only makes things worse.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:52 am 71. Gordon Chang:

njcommuter, thanks for your perceptive comment. I agree.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:53 am 72. Gordon Chang:

Ole Sarge, I suspect that there are so many Muslims that it is hard to generalize about them, don’t you think?

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:55 am 73. Gordon Chang:

Bigger Diggler, maybe this is new warfare against Muslimes, but the Communist Party of China has been applying ugly policies in Xinjiang for its 60 years in power.

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:58 am 74. Gordon Chang:

Gary Ogletree, you are right that we need to get our debt in order. And it starts now, with cutting Washington spending.

Jul 12, 2009 - 6:01 am 75. Gordon Chang:

Dan, you write: “the answer is active measures.” For us, what would that be?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Jul 12, 2009 - 6:02 am 76. Gordon Chang:

The Skizzerd of Waz, yes, and that means we all need to speak out. So let’s pick up the phone and call our representatives in Congress.

Jul 12, 2009 - 6:03 am 77. Gordon Chang:

Glass, the issue is not so much the use of force but the effective use of power. The Obama administration is still coming to terms with both.

Jul 12, 2009 - 6:06 am 78. Gordon Chang:

Blackwater, the difference between China and the United States today is that the U.S. has the ability to assimiliate peacefully and voluntarily. I know: my dad and wife are immigrants, and they are great Americans.

Jul 12, 2009 - 6:10 am 79. David W. Lincoln:

Mr. Chang. What is the Middle Kingdom Complex? As long as the differences outweigh the similarities, you wind up with a closed system. Which is in no
one’s interest. That is the connection I draw between the Muslims and the Beijing Politburo.

Jul 12, 2009 - 7:41 am 80. Derek:

If uighurs are so peaceful, then what’s the deal with the 184 bodycount ? One uighur didn’t kill that many people. Two uighurs didn’t kill that many people. It took at least dozens, but probably hundreds of rioters to kill that many people. Look, I try to be a good guy. I have been in a few fights, but I never started one. I’ve never been to jail. So, I will be damned before I throw my reputation/support behind those murderous people. But, Mr. Chang, you do what you feel comfortable with. I wonder if you sleep well at night.

Jul 12, 2009 - 9:22 am 81. Bob:

When a radical Muslim or two get tortured or jailed by American officials, the whole Muslim world goes into the Islamic-rage boy mode. When an entire Muslim population in western China get crushed and suppressed by China, the whole Muslim world goes quiet and mind about their business.

Make you goes hmmm…

Jul 12, 2009 - 1:07 pm 82. Gordon Chang:

David W. Lincoln, thanks for the interesting explanation. Middle Kingdom Complex sounds apt.

Jul 12, 2009 - 4:40 pm 83. Gordon Chang:

Derek, we don’t at this point know who killed whom and in what numbers. We know what Beijing says, and, given past statements it has made, we can say that what it says now probably does not correspond with the facts.

Did enraged Uighurs kill people? Yes, they clearly did. Would most people have done the same in their circumstances? I suspect so. People, for example, know few limits when it comes to defending their families and their societies. We Americans started a revolution over a lot less.

Jul 12, 2009 - 4:48 pm 84. Gordon Chang:

Bob, and yet populations in the Muslim world are changing now. And that’s a good thing.

Jul 12, 2009 - 4:50 pm 85. Brian:

I have spent quite a bit of time in China and I can say from my experiences here that the views of many in the US does not accurately portray the realities I see here everyday. Amazing that the misinformation of how the Chinese govenment is shutting down information to the west, while here I am sitting in china right at the moment and having no problem what-so-ever reading information which is negative towards China and responding. Most of the dead and injuried in the riots were citizen attacks on other citizens. Yes the Chinese government is going to be far heavier handed to squash the problem then the US would. But I do seem to recall a little event known as Waco Texas.
China doesnt mess around with niceties. And the government isnt above the law here, when politicians are caught stealing public money they arent given a pass as in the US, they are taken out back and shot. What system would you say leads to less or more corruption?

Jul 12, 2009 - 5:58 pm 86. Cristina:

njcommuter:

Not quite. China is still an oriental despotism, i.e. power of a clan/dynasty/communist apparat based on servility/services rendered to them or to the next higher-up, whether as Peoples Republic “citizens” of today, or, as in the past, slaves/indentured servants or bureaucrats or suppliers of anything, from choice opium to the finest porcelain and the best Moghul erotica.

The Roman Empire, for all its evils, was a fluid, socially, ethnically and culturally mobile and “open” society, self-conscious about its ideas and values and powers (hail to the Greeks!)–see Marcus Aurelius’s Confessions–and willing to reasses them, for otherwise we wouldn’t have Christianity, a mutated form of Judaism, and all the ordinary rest I’m happy to have inherited from the Roman departing legionnairs.

Jul 12, 2009 - 7:08 pm 87. vivo:

46. Gordon Chang:

“but Muslims seemed to care about what we do. We don’t get a free pass. The Chinese should not either.”

See 85. Brian:
“I have spent quite a bit of time in China and I can say from my experiences here that the views of many in the US does not accurately portray the realities I see here everyday. Amazing that the misinformation of how the Chinese govenment is shutting down information to the west, while here I am sitting in china right at the moment and having no problem what-so-ever reading information which is negative towards China and responding.”

I interpret this as the Chinese don’t care what the rest of the World thinks of them, or they don’t know how to handle PR. Big country, Third World.

Jul 12, 2009 - 8:27 pm 88. ulysse:

A lot of muslims don’t like Turks because Turkey is the most pro-US islamic country. Turkey was the first islamic country to recognize Israel. There were even rumour in the muslim world that Kemal Atatürk, funder of modern Turkey, was a Jew.
United States could not invade Iraq without Turkey government’s collaboration. In return, United States labeled the Kurdish seperatist groups in Turkey as terrorists.

Jul 13, 2009 - 12:28 am 89. ulysse:

For example United States labeled the Kurdistan Workers’ Party as terrorists. During Iraq war, Turkey sent army to fight on united states’ side, while Kurdish gureills fought on Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda’s side.

Jul 13, 2009 - 12:35 am 90. Gordon Chang:

Brian, do you really think China has less corruption than the United States as you imply?

Jul 13, 2009 - 7:25 am 91. Gordon Chang:

Cristina, you are right about the bottom-up patronage system of China’s one-party state. So few people focus on this critical element. Thanks for enriching the discussion.

Jul 13, 2009 - 7:27 am 92. Gordon Chang:

vivo, the Chinese government very much cares about what the rest of the world thinks about it.

By the way, Brian’s views of the free flow of information is dead wrong. And he should know it.

Jul 13, 2009 - 7:29 am 93. Gordon Chang:

ulysse, I agree about Turkey’s modern outlook on the world. We should do everything to encourage its integration into Europe, which would be good for the Europeans too.

Jul 13, 2009 - 7:31 am 94. I Blame the Parents:

Bob;

I would say that is because the Chinese are not as powerful as the infidels, as well as not being a historical enemy. There is no historical memory of bitterness and the past is a vivid thing for many middle eastern people.

Jul 13, 2009 - 8:13 am 95. Federale:

Kind of funny that the Turks, who imposed their language and culture on the people of Anatolia, who were previously Christian and did not speak Turkish. Perhaps the Turks know how successful cultural replacement can be.

Jul 13, 2009 - 10:06 am 96. alex:

I live in China and must agree with Brian, its easy to state an opinion but if your not living here you dont know what is being broadcast on media channels. What happened in Urumqi is on all channels, the good the bad and the ugly. there is quite a bit of information on CCTV, and radio, and internet, far more than i see on CNN and BBC channels. China has come a long way in the last few years and this should be recognized and stated for the record.

Furthermore there is as much or more corruption in the USA as in China, a simple reading of the finance section of any newspaper will reveal the tallies; 800 Billion in TARP, 2 trillion sent by Federal Reserve to destinations unknown and their refusal to identify recipients, trillions the pentagon cannot account for…lets not be intellectually dishonest, corruption is rampant in America especially on Wall Street.

Jul 13, 2009 - 10:54 am 97. vivo:

92. Gordon Chang:

“By the way, Brian’s views of the free flow of information is dead wrong. And he should know it.”

One of you two is lying. Shame for the liar.

Jul 13, 2009 - 12:22 pm 98. SteveB/Colorado:

#95 federale: “kind of funny that the Turks, who imposed their language and culture on the people of Anatolia…..” That happened in the 11th and 12th centuries. Relevant only for today in that for 600+ years the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire was the bulwark protecting dark ages Western Europe from Muslim advance (except in Spain). Might have stayed the same except the 4th Crusade decided to sack Constantinople in 1204 instead of going to Palestine to liberate Jerusalem.

#96 Alex: “I live in China…..” I don’t, but spent several weeks in and around Kashgar last year doing mountain climbing. Seemed to me to be a peaceful society of Uighurs, Tajiks, Kirghiz, and some Han Chinese. Two weeks after I left, Uighur terrorists assassinated 15 cops at a police station several blocks from my hotel in Kashgar. That act seemed out of character with the majority of the local people who are fairly prosperous. The terrs were executed several months ago after fair trial.

Alex: “there is as much or more corruption in the USA as in China…..” I would agree. I’ve written on other threads about the GAO study from early this year showing nearly $300 billion in cost overruns on 66 of 94 Pentagon weapons programs. Where is that money? I won’t even get into such things as TARP, no bid contracts in Iraq for Haliburton, etc. We don’t have a lot of space to complain about corruption in other countries when we don’t have our own act cleaned up.

Jul 13, 2009 - 3:19 pm 99. Brian:

“By the way, Brian’s views of the free flow of information is dead wrong. And he should know it.”

And you know this for a fact how? What is the basis for your conclusion? Back up the statement. Because westerners like myself who live in China and see every day what is broadcast here and can compare it to what is broadcast in western media know the actual state of being. Its no wonder people in the west have such a skewed vision of China. Before I came here I thought it was going to be far different than it actually is all based upon poor reporting in western media.

“Brian, do you really think China has less corruption than the United States as you imply?”

Absolutely! Although I admit that while I am much more familiar with US goverment issues then Chinese. Although I do read the Chinese reports in paper as to when a government official is caught at something and they deal with it severly, so there much more reason here in China to not fall into corruption.
I use the comparision to drug dealers…. there is a huge problem in the west with drugs yet in china it is miniscule, now compare how the dealers are dealt with when caught. Execution in China versus as a 6 month slap on the wrist in the US. Where would you be more likely to find someone dealing drugs?

Jul 13, 2009 - 5:51 pm 100. Derek:

Gordon,

We don’t know exactly what happened, but here is what we do know. People you label as, “peaceful protesters”, went on a murdering rampage. We know because the pictures and videos are all over the internet.

“Did enraged Uighurs kill people? Yes, they clearly did. Would most people have done the same in their circumstances? I suspect so.”

Really ? I mean, Really ? Are you serious ? No, you can’t be serious… Oh, you are serious. You argue that most people would have done the same, therefore, a reasonable person would have done the same. If a reasonable person would do it, then it isn’t murder, it’s justifiable homicide. Only, you forgot one thing…

Killing random people on the street is never justifiable.

Look, I don’t know who you hang out with, but attacking and killing random strangers on the street is never considered reasonable, acceptable, or justifiable behavior with the people I hang out with. I’m a little stunned that you believe that murdering random passers-by is sometimes justified.

Jul 13, 2009 - 6:32 pm 101. Marc Malone:

“It is better to be feared than loved.” We are neither.

Jul 13, 2009 - 10:23 pm 102. Pat J:

I’ll take Erdogan’s denouncement of the atrocities against the Uighers more seriously when Turkey finally recognizes Turkish atrocities against Armenia.

Jul 14, 2009 - 12:13 pm 103. Gordon Chang:

I Blame the Parents, but is there a history of enmity between the United States and the Muslim world?

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:01 pm 104. Gordon Chang:

Federale, yes, but the point is that the Muslim world, as hypocritical as it may be, is changing its assessment of China.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:03 pm 105. Gordon Chang:

alex, yes, there is more information on state channels, but have you seen any commentary favorable to the Uighurs on your television? In People’s Daily? Anything critical of Beijing’s policies?

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:05 pm 106. Gordon Chang:

vivo, yes, shame on Brian.

Even Beijing admits it censors media. Why won’t Brian admit it does so?

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:06 pm 107. Gordon Chang:

Brian, just one quesiton for you on the media: When have you seen something critical of Hu Jintao on state television?

Is there corruption in the United States? Of course, but we have independent prosecutors and courts. Those don’t exist in China. And, yes, there are corruption prosecutions in China, but they are almost always the result of political struggles with the losers going to jail and the winners stealing even more money.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:11 pm 108. Gordon Chang:

SteveB/Colorado, the attack on the police state, although violent, was not an act of terrorism. It was directed at the state, not civilians.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:14 pm 109. Gordon Chang:

Derek, there is a big difference between saying an act is justifiable and saying it is understandable.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:15 pm 110. Gordon Chang:

Marc Malone, you got that right.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:16 pm 111. Gordon Chang:

Derek, one more thing: the fact that Buddhist Tibetans, pacifists, engaged in the same violent conduct as the Uighurs says something about Chinese policies. This makes their conduct understandable.

Whether the conduct was justifiable is a different matter. On that, I agree with you. It was not.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:19 pm 112. Brian:

Mr. Chang, once again you failed to cite the source for your position and your experiences which support it. I believe I have substancial first hand experience in China with regard to the culture. I admit I was not within the area of the riots, but western reporters were broadcasting from the region, they were not locked into hotels as they were in Iran.
You CLAIM that all political prosecutions in China are the result of political infighting….. based upon WHAT? A gut feeling? That how liberals base there opinions, I prefer to base it on direct information.

You ask whether I have seen critical reporting on Hu Jintao? Admittedly no. But I see little critical reporting on Obama as well on MSM…. is this a signal for media manipulation in the US as well? As for critical reporting on policies in Beijing? ABSOLUTELY! I have read many articles which were critical on policies within Beijing… for example they recently passed a law banned food on the subway… people were very unhappy with this and reporting did reflect this and it was reported in China Daily.

Jul 19, 2009 - 3:49 am 113. Gordon Chang:

Brian, thanks for your reply.

Yes, the reporting from Urumqi was freer than reporting on Tibet last year and freer than the reporting from Iran this year, but you still did not see in the Chinese press criticisms of Chinese government policies, did you? Criticisms of the way security forces handled the protests? Reports saying that Beijing’s charges of outside agitation were bunkum?

With your reference to the Obama administration and MSM, are you trying to equate controls on the American media to Chinese media controls? I hope not.

I made the statements about corruption proceedings based on my time in China and almost a decade of following the matter. No, I have not studied each and every case of corruption. But if you applied that standard, nobody could say anything on any topic.

The Party has allowed limited criticisms of Beijing policies, especially in economic matters, because it has had to. Why did it have to? The internet. But you have not seen challenges to the Communist Party’s right to rule in the press. Criticisms of food-on-subway bans is not especially indicative of a free press. Let’s not try to elevate some minor improvement from the Maoist era as a big deal, especially when the political system has become progressively more respressive since 2002.

Jul 19, 2009 - 3:46 pm 114. Brian:

Many of those statements I can agree with. You WILL not see anything in the media challenging the Communist part or their right to rule. BUT political change is slow in China, one thing cannot be argued however, China IS changing, and changing for the better. Aside from politics there is much to admire the Chinese culture for and their get it done philosophy (which once upon a time existed in the USA.
95 percent of the population has no desire to change the government their, yet people in the US feel it’s our obligation to tell them what government they should have? Taxation is a modern day form of slavery in my mind… and the US citizens are taxed far more than the Chinese… And how many people in the US feel they have a voice in government? It’s all smoke and mirrors my friend. Sure we have the right to stand on the street corner and yell about it, but you think that makes a difference? My experiences in China says the country gets a very poor and unfair representation in the US… Misinformation helps no one. It’s far from perfect there… but its far from perfect here as well. But the GDP in China expanded 8 percent last quarter… how is it doing in the US?

Jul 21, 2009 - 4:37 am 115. Brian:

Several other posters to this article living in China currently seem to have a similar outlook to mine as to their experiences there. Perhaps there is something to it. I don’t claim to be an expert on it… Just reporting my experiences there.

Jul 21, 2009 - 4:40 am 116. Gordon Chang:

Brian, the Chinese political system is more repressive now than it was in the Spring of 1989. It is also more repressive now than it was a half decade ago. Although the Chinese people are moving in the right direction, their political system is going into reverse. So, no, we cannot say that China is changing for the better. If anything, society is more unstable today than it has been in a long time.

And although Beijing claimed 7.9 percent growth in the second quarter, the numbers don’t add up. Growth was probably four percent at most. And the economy is headed for trouble because Beijing is renationalizing the economy and creating another bad-loan crisis for the banks. The signs are not good for China in the next two years. So, although China has a better growth rate now, that won’t last.

Jul 21, 2009 - 7:17 am 117. Brian:

care to put money that it will double the growth in US over the next 2 years?

Jul 23, 2009 - 4:20 pm 118. Gordon Chang:

Brian, how do you know what Chinese growth is?

Beijing’s numbers have taken on a fantastical quality recently–especially those relating to the first quarter of this year–as statisticians make sure the numbers keep up with Premier Wen Jianbao’s prediction of 8 percent growth. So there’s no way to reliably know what’s going on in the Chinese economy.

Jul 24, 2009 - 1:26 pm

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