142 Comments

1. Cybergeezer:

Nice job Joe; Sorry to say you’re bolstering the main stream media credibility. Need something to keep you separate and unique. I’ll get back to you on what. Your boss has that duty.
You are the most envied man in the U.S. What are you going to do when you are bestowed the Edward R.Murrow award?

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:17 pm 2. CJB:

Cybergeezer,

MSM credibility can’t be bolstered. The MSM sees to that.

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:20 pm 3. Cybergeezer:

As far as the big time media; It looks like they are reporting from a laptop in somewhere in Manhattan, Los Angeles, or London. They doing nothing but paraphrasing whatever they find on the internet.

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:27 pm 4. John:

So why don’t you send him to Gaza? You want to provide unbiased coverage right? Shouldn’t he get the Palestinian side of the story? Or would that be too elitist?

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:31 pm 5. Donna V.:

Shouldn’t he get the Palestinian side of the story?

We’re already getting it – from CNN, the NY Times, BBC, al-Rueters, etc.

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:36 pm 6. AynRand:

John , they already got Mads , with all the special effects. And the rest of the tanning bed media.

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:42 pm 7. David Thomson:

Joe the Plumber is not a scholar. Still, he is intellectually the equal of most MSM journalists. And more importantly, Joe seemingly possesses a sturdy work ethic and wants to improve. The man is also not a self-hating American. He believes that we are more often than not, the good guys. Joe categorically rejects moral equivalency.

Some people are upset by Joe’s call for censorship in the battlefield. The doctrines of political correctness have most assuredly subtly seduced those who feel this way. Can you imagine these same individuals claiming that the Nazis deserved an objectively dispassionate analysis? Of course not. No, this attitude is reserved only for the alleged dark skin victims of American and Israeli imperialism. Total wartime censorship should be categorically rejected. A more balanced perspective, however, is mandatory.

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:49 pm 8. ILikeIke:

“If news professionals did their job the way they were supposed to, there would be no need for Joe the Plumber to be in Israel.”

Oh man…that’s hilarious. You mean if “news professionals” were as biased and incompetent as Joe? Thank God they’re not.

I wonder what Joe would think about some rank amateur slamming “plumbing professionals.” Something tells me he’d take offense….

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:52 pm 9. Yehuda:

6 thousand rockets, missles, and mortars fired at innocent Israeli men, women, and children by Hamass since Hamass pulled off it’s coup some years back. Is that too biased for you John?

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:53 pm 10. Rose:

Reporting can be simply that, reporting. It does not require a journalism degree. Your neighbor does it when he comes home and tells you about the wreck on the way home from work.

I thought Joe did fine – he was certainly within his own context, which allows for real, unrehearsed, honest perspective. It was a report.

His ‘conversation’ with the Reuter’s guys was interesting, actually. Challenging them to say what they think is almost a mind altering experience.

Keep it up, Joe. Keep it REAL.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:10 pm 11. Mark Epstein:

Let’s face it, the mainstream media is broken. For this reason alone, Joe is worth his weight in gold.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:27 pm 12. Cybergeezer:

Go for it, Joe! Your sending tingles up the plumbing of everybody in the U.S.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:29 pm 13. Cybergeezer:

And “The average Joe Reporter” reality shows in Gaza, Lebanon, Tehran, Baghdad, Mosul.
International journalist competition.
No, They already have Liars Contests.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:40 pm 14. Beate Schmidt:

Please excuse my bad english.But I must say how very happy i am to see Joe Wurzelbacher report from Israel. Of course Information is very important (and i am in the internet for houers every day to find Information the media are not willing to give)but it`s great to see someone who understands the situation Israel is in just from his heart and with a corious brain .
Thank jou all for yor work that somedays really saves me driving mad!

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:41 pm 15. jdm:

You know, cybergeezer, bolding your messages is the web equivalent of capitalizing every letter aka yelling. Perhaps if you were more interesting or insightful you wouldn’t feel the need. But then apparently you already know yourself that you aren’t.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:42 pm 16. Peter the Bubblehead:

(formerly Peter the Sub Guy)

8. ILikeIke wrote:
Oh man…that’s hilarious. You mean if “news professionals” were as biased…

Peter responds: That’s the problem ike. The MSM is biased. Unfortunately they are biased toward the terrorists and killers.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:52 pm 17. LittleOrby:

You know, cybergeezer, bolding your messages is the web equivalent of capitalizing every letter aka yelling. Perhaps if you were more interesting or insightful you wouldn’t feel the need. But then apparently you already know yourself that you aren’t.

My! JDM, I’M CERTAINLY GLAD YOU POINTED OUT THE CYBERGEEZER’S UNFORGIVABLE FLAW. HE SHOULD HAVE TYPED THE MESSAGE IN CAPS!

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:23 pm 18. ~Paules:

If you have ever been the subject of a news event, you probably saw the story later and protested to your friends that “I said nothing of the kind.” You might have witnessed an event, only later to read the story and exclaim, “that’s not what I saw.” Indeed, perspective is everything. And then you understand that the rendition of the story is more important than the truth behind the event. You might with a bit of discrimination even detect on occasion that both the story and truth are irrelevant. The stage was set merely to convey to the public how very important is the press and even more so the brave man in his Kevlar reporting from the front.

Joe is in no way either qualified or credentialed for his gig in Gaza. But neither does he cloak himself in the professional guile that goes with the business. He is clumsy but earnest, inarticulate yet honest. The MSM give me only polished lies. PJM’s diamond in the rough needs to grind off a few sharp edges and hone the surface in a hurry. Sorry, Bill, but I call them like I see them. Joe could be a real asset, but the window of opportunity is narrow, and also short.

Take his honest perspective and groom his prose into something learned and sophisticated. Put him in front of a camera and make him practice his delivery. Honest perspective no matter how utterly guileless won’t do the job. See you to it.

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:24 pm 19. JohnB:

Joe, please keep on doing and saying what you are doing and saying. As to ILikeIke, when we have to go to foreign news outlets to get some balance and truth to what is reported by the MainScream media, then they have gone to such a low that nobody could ever do worse. Better the honest reporting of the guy next door than the professional “journalist” working hard to trash the US of A.

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:27 pm 20. NahnCee:

jdm – you gots no valid argument so you’re gonna parse grammar? good tactic. well, at least a well-worn tactic, even if juvenile.

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:30 pm 21. Jay Stevens:

John wrote:
“So why don’t you send him to Gaza? You want to provide unbiased coverage right? Shouldn’t he get the Palestinian side of the story? Or would that be too elitist?”

AP and Reuters have, in the past, admitted that if they weren’t prepared to slant the news toward the Palestineans, their reporters would not be allowed access. So THEY probably would not let JtP in.

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:39 pm 22. Boyd:

“You know, cybergeezer, bolding your messages is the web equivalent of capitalizing every letter aka yelling. Perhaps if you were more interesting or insightful you wouldn’t feel the need”

Well said. Just because CG and I are on the same side doesn’t make it any less annoying. The trolls aren’t always on the other side.

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:42 pm 23. zanne:

Whether it is Joe or Sally makes no difference. Just give me the facts…just the facts. It would be a lovely change. I don’t trust MSM any longer.

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:47 pm 24. cccc:

The MSM is reporting this war like they are recieving daily breifings from Hamas! Keep up the good work Joe!

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:50 pm 25. Jeff Weimer:

Umm, where’s Harsh Reality? I thought he’d be here by now.

I’m just sayin’

BTW, my middle name is Jeff

Jan 14, 2009 - 6:59 pm 26. Cybergeezer:

15. jdm:
I’m so grateful to see internet police lie you; I feel so secure now.
And thanks for your insight!

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:00 pm 27. JF:

Take his honest perspective and groom his prose into something learned and sophisticated. Put him in front of a camera and make him practice his delivery. Honest perspective no matter how utterly guileless won’t do the job. See you to it. ~Paules

Now this is good advice. Help him. I followed Iraq the Model from their first post and they have really improved, I am sure with help from others. Joe can do that too but as ~Paules said, there may not be time.

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:04 pm 28. Cybergeezer:

Uh, oh; Typo; caught me red handed; Please insert “k”.
Meanwhile; Back in Gaza………………

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:05 pm 29. ILikeIke:

Peter, “The MSM is biased.”

Yes, all media is biased, but I suspect the problem isn’t that the MSM is biased, it’s just biased in a way you don’t like.

Perhaps because your views aren’t very mainstream????? Did that ever occur to you?

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:09 pm 30. Boyd:

“you gots no valid argument so you’re gonna parse grammar? good tactic. well, at least a well-worn tactic, even if juvenile.”

I’m not sure of jdm’s views on this but he wasn’t parsing grammar. He was commenting on a poster of endless commentary that does not look to have any argument behind it other than to hear himself talk and distract from the dialog.

There is a reason why this is unfortunate. I believe that Mr. Simon’s Pajamas Media, the new Breitbart Big Hollywood and even Joe the Plumber are intended to address a critical need for a Conservative/Libertarian voice in our Country. Their success though is in no small way effected by the level of discourse in these comments sections. Make no mistake, Conservatives and Libertarians are in a war and our opponents are quite aware of the power of network thinking available here. It is unfortunate that so many well intentioned people are allowing them to win by not following Rule Number One of comment posting; DNFTT – Do not feed the trolls.

And yes, they can be on either side.

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:12 pm 31. Dean:

It’s not just that Joe isn’t a professional – he’s a dummy. A moron. An uneducated, unsophisticated, dufus. His “reporting” brings no nuance to the situation. People don’t get anything of value. They are probably dumber after listening to him.

Stewart has something Joe the Dummy will never have – an intellect.

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:14 pm 32. rrr:

Ike, do yourself a favor. Stop posting. You obviously don’t get out much. Of course, that might be better for you. Then you can gaze lovingly in your mirror and continue to believe that the MSM represents anything close to the mainstream of America. Of course, if you don’t mind being laughed at and then texting all your buddies telling how brave you were at pajamas, keep it up!

Yeesh!

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:19 pm 33. Cybergeezer:

And Rick Sanchez is attacking Joe!
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/14/video-rick-sanchez-dumps-all-over-joe-the-plumber/
Sanchez is the only cuban I know that was ever kicked out of Miami.

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:27 pm 34. Cybergeezer:

FREE KOOL-AID IN D.C. JANUARY 20TH!

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:38 pm 35. UnmooredLefty:

ILikeIke: “I wonder what Joe would think about some rank amateur slamming “plumbing professionals.” The difference is that the plumbing of professionals holds water while the reporting of the professional ‘journalists’ don’t.

ILikeIke: “Perhaps because your views aren’t very mainstream????? Did that ever occur to you?” Yes. How would we know if the views of the MSM aren’t very mainstream if no one else gets published? Did that ever occur to you? (I’m betting if it did you ignored it and moved quickly on.)

Dean: “It’s not just that (the MSM) isn’t a professional – they’re dummies. Morons. Uneducated, unsophisticated, dufuses. Their “journalism” brings nothing but nuance to the situation. People don’t get anything of value. They are probably dumber after listening to them.

Stewart has something Joe the Dummy will never have – an audience that appreciates his bias.” There. Fixed that for you.

And FYI, Stewart is neither a ‘journalist’ nor a reporter. Evidently either you’ve not known many ‘journalists’ or journalism majors or you would know that their rampant Delusions of Adequacy and Delusions of Relevance serve mostly to cover a severe lack of intellectual ability.

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:49 pm 36. venividivici:

ILikeIke:

Peter, “The MSM is biased.”

Yes, all media is biased, but I suspect the problem isn’t that the MSM is biased, it’s just biased in a way you don’t like.

Perhaps because your views aren’t very mainstream????? Did that ever occur to you?
Jan 14, 2009 – 7:09 pm

“Mainstream” among whom? If you mean “mainstream” among the people who inhabit the media, who vote 85-90% Democrat here in the US, then it is unlikely that anyone from the general population would have those same views. The media tries to make those views seem “mainstream”. In fact, that’s about all they actually do.

4. John:

So why don’t you send him to Gaza? You want to provide unbiased coverage right? Shouldn’t he get the Palestinian side of the story? Or would that be too elitist?
Jan 14, 2009 – 4:31 pm

Since this is a thread about media and news, here’s a newsflash for you: I’ve heard the Palestinian story a thousand times over the past 30 years and it’s a bunch of BS. They deserve 10 or 20 times the beating Israel is giving them now. The sooner the world is rid of Hamas, the better.

Jan 14, 2009 - 7:53 pm 37. Benson:

PJM and Joe can exist because the internet exists. It’s no wonder the UN plans to seize and control the new medium.

Meanwhile Pelosi plans to make the Fairness Doctrine a law, not just a regulation of the FCC. Censorship is the rascal’s terrified response to Liberty.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:01 pm 38. ILikeIke:

Note to all the folks who claim that the Mainstream Media, aka the MSM, is not mainstream…then perhaps you need to pick a new name.

Lefty Corporate Media, maybe?

Media I Disagree With is a good one.

Not So Extremist Media?

I mean, something other than “Mainstream.” Or is that supposed to be ironic or something?

To rrr: Do yourself a favor. Learn how to engage people you disagree with.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:08 pm 39. Pat J:

I say send Joe to Gaza so he can see some the other side of the coin. To me there’s nothing wrong from hearing the Palestinian side of things. Maybe Joe would find quite a few Palestinians not too pleased with Hamas.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:19 pm 40. Deagle:

I really enjoyed ‘Joe the Plumbers’ response unlike most of the MSM. I like it told like it is…not like the reporter would hope that it is… Thanks Joe…

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:21 pm 41. Danny:

#29, that must be why all the MSM are going bankrupt or are government controlled entities a la BBC? Because people are rushing out to pay for the drivel they spew.

I don’t have a problem with biased, I don’t even have a problem with not even being balanced. I have a problem with people repeating what are patent lies and not even bothering to do the basic fact checking. I don’t care if they only report what the Palestinians say but to play videos that a child can see is faked is surely not professional.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:24 pm 42. NS Webster:

If Joe had made a factual error in his reporting, I would easily give him the benefit of the doubt. I understand his mission is showing an ‘everyman’s view of the conflict’ and I think from that perspective he was doing a good job. I have no problem with his unvarnished, straightforward manner. I think he comes across really well, and has a good camera presence.

I also believe that people say what they mean when they aren’t giving it a lot of thought. Joe had the chance to offer his opinion, and it was opposed to people like Ernie Pyle, Michael Yon and many others.

I take people at their word. I don’t make excuses for them and say “well, he probably didn’t mean that.”

No, it seems like Joe meant exactly what he said – no war reporting, period. I’m not sure what else he could have meant by ‘abolish’ and by allowing reporters only to write from approved military press releases.

He is a war correspondent now, and just like people complain legitimately about poor MSM coverage, he gets the same treatment.

PJTV set him up to represent themselves, and by association, all the ‘New Media War Correspondents.’ These comments by Joe are ridiculous, and by association, he makes all these ‘new media’ correspondents look ridiculous, since the average person who doesn’t know better will tar them all with the same brush.

PJTV tried a gimmick to get attention. They succeeded.

I’ve embedded as a freelancer with the 82nd Abn and 25th ID. I’ve been to Iraq as an Army soldier. I did some work for Long War Journal.

As a journalist, new media reporter, and Army veteran, I’m here to tell you that what Joe said is beyond the pale to me. I believe he meant what he said, which means he has no knowledge of the hundreds of reporters/journalists/correspondents who’ve gone before him.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:40 pm 43. David Thomson:

“Maybe Joe would find quite a few Palestinians not too pleased with Hamas.”

A Palestinian who is “not too pleased with Hamas” is taking their own life in their hands if they ever dare speak to Joe the Plumber on camera! They will likely be accused of spying on behalf of the Israelis by the extremists in their neighborhood. At best, these brave folks would have to speak to Joe with their faces covered.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:41 pm 44. venividivici:

ILikeIke:

Note to all the folks who claim that the Mainstream Media, aka the MSM, is not mainstream…then perhaps you need to pick a new name.

I like Dinosaur Media, personally.

They’re mainstream in the sense that they are where, up until very recently, more people got their news than through any other media type.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:53 pm 45. john from cinncinatti:

if you apply logic to the news coming from out of Gaza it surely doesn’t hold water. i bet dollars to donuts that Joe the reporter went into Gaza, Hamas operatives would cap him and blame it on the IDF. zionist reporters,not telling the truth according to how the victim sees it. there are only victims and perpetrators, and if one jumps on the victim role before the other, then the only position left is the perp. the way i see it, is the jihadis revel in the victim role and don’t want to take responsibility for what happens to them. we respond to them for running our planes into our buildings and it’s our fault for making more jidhadist for our troops to kill. they are teaching their children that their culture is one of war against the west, i guess its my job to teach my kids that its our culture to keep kicking their asses, and support those that also do the same.

Jan 14, 2009 - 10:00 pm 46. David H:

I think Joe picked up on something major, the MSM is foaming at the mouth because Israel is not allowing them to send reporters in, last night on France 3 there was what seemed like a 10 minutes rant by a reporter going ballistic about the freedom of the press and lambasting Israels action, and yet this guy would never say that when dealing with that news they have no freedom as their reporters are held hostage to Islamic kidnapping and killing if they do not report with a bias to them, after all that film of the Palestinian taken by Italian cameramen with his blood covered hands held in triumph out of the window has been locked away from public consumption.

Joe is winding them up and all power to his elbow, problem is that he did wind up people like Michael Yon, which is a shame, but Mr Yon should not take Joes comments as an attack on him.

Jan 14, 2009 - 11:08 pm 47. Pete:

My oh my, boy can you guys be truth selective.

Firstly the MSM have not been allowed in to Gaza, because the Israelis know that if they are, then then they would not get away with the atrocities that they are committing.

Secondly, the very fact that Israel has banned all outside journalists speaks volumes.

Thirdly, Joe le plumber although I am sure well intentioned (as long as the $ keep rolling in) is a rightwing reporter writing for a right wing site. He has absolutely no desire to go and get some balance to his reports by reporting what it is like for people in Gaza.

As for several posters views here that the folks of Gaza deserve “4 x the punishment they are getting”, how pathetic. I bet those commentators have never even travelled outside of their states let alone to the ME, to see the situation.

I am not saying that the Palestinians are innocent in all of this as that would be ridiculous, but you guys really need to take your bias out of this and get some balance.

I expect to see more purile comments and further lack of understanding of the history of this affair, thats a given when reading US critics, most of which still think that hollywood depictions are accurate.

Jan 14, 2009 - 11:24 pm 48. David H:

Let me change that sentence to the correct situation:

“Firstly the MSM have not been allowed in to Gaza, because the Israelis know that if they are, then they would be painted as carrying out atrocities that they never committed.”

Correction made, next…

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:30 am 49. Rob:

Joe, I live in Ashqelon just 8 miles from the Gaza and would have loved to meet you. There are plenty of miracles worth reporting that are intricate to this war situation. You are the man of the year by far. For 7 + years we and Sderot have had THOUSANDS of lethal rockets fired this way, so that removes any doubt why Israel is defending the innocent civilians from the Hamas\Arabic enemies. Not all Arabics agree with the Hamas. Its a leadership thats to blame Not the race of the Arabic peoples, and make this clear!! Dont you people out there dare to say evil against Arabic people..

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:35 am 50. mik:

I thought jtp was going to be unbiased? he sure seems opinionated to me. he wants to report on regular folks but has no idea what to ask them and adds his 2 cents anyways.

if jtp wants to milk the system and pajama media wants to exploit this for clicks on their webpage….hey, everybody’s got to make a living. but let’s not pretend jtp actually cares about what’s going on over there.

I’m beginning to really miss true conservatives. all that’s left of right wings are blamers and haters. liberal this, liberal that. sad.

the ‘liberals’ commenting on this page aren’t knocking jtp because he’s a conservative or for his conservative beliefs. they just don’t like him as a person.

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:35 am 51. Tom:

Since when did citizen journalism mean being taken on PR tours by government handlers? This is exactly what he is doing.

If he went there and found perspectives or facts that do not get reported normally, it would be much harder to criticise. But as an opinionator taking PR tours and then spouting the exact same thing he would have said from back home in the US, it is hard to understand the value of this.

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:27 am 52. Rob:

Thank you Joe for the straight truth of the reality of the heart of matters that the world just cannot see or hear when presented to them. You are certainly more practicle then 99.9% of the double tongued people who are bound into the darkness of their views. Its been so long since we have had a person to laud that s a straight shooter and can express it so. Its so sad to have to sift thru the willfull ignorance of the posters who have no obvious perspective of the realities where I am at and what is really going on. Again, Joe you are a rare one with something the world typically hates and tries everything it can do to pervert and circumvent away from, sound simple truth.

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:27 am 53. David H:

The Media, lest take France 2, that wonderful French channel that my familly refuse to watch, the Al Dura blood libel among many and then during this conflict they get caught screening the result of the Hamas exploding parade in 2005 with dead and injured, many children and making it look like Israels attack in Gaza, is that the sort of ATROCITY you mean Pete old boy, I think it must be, that is what I meant.

I think that Hamas are getting their punishment, I have some sympathy for the civillians in Gaza, albeit lessoned due to their voting of Hamas into power.

And another thing, I have studied history for fun since I was a child, if only all conflicts had been fought the way that Israel fights, in other words trying their upmost not to kill innocents and in that I mean the Western term for innocents, not the Muslim one.

I have been on many websitesnow and I keep seeing people trying to cause conflict between patriotic Americans and patriotic Brits with posts like that, this is again a strategy of the enemy, sow discord…, but it dos not bother me hearing Americans slag of the UK, I know that while NuLabour and the left are in power in the UK they have some reasons for this view.

What I have found over the last 5 years is that there are a lot of people with the same views as me, that we are now networking like mad and that we are now having an impact, the MSM is being bypassed and people like me now know that we are not alone, heck I have eben become a true European in that the only politician I would vote for is Geert Wilders, a real European Union…

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:45 am 54. cfbleachers:

Bill, the seminal point of having Joe act in stead of the entrenched media is seemingly lost in the pop culture debate seen above. Those trite and inane comments oozing from the leftward side of the spectrum seem to intentionally miss the point, and the trap is then sprung on those who wrestle the weasels in the trees.

It is much more sad, frightening and discouraging than merely, “if the entrenched media did their job” {I steadfastly refuse to dignify their own framing of words and phrases, and I will not now, or ever elevate them to “mainstream” thought status), we would not have to send out freelance reporters to get at the truth.

Think about that for a moment. The very notion that it has become relatively “acceptable” that we are fed a steady diet of lies, distortions, half-truths, photoshopped pictures, staged events, one-sided overt propaganda…by our OWN information stream guardians, is treachery of epic proportions. And yet, we have become so inured to it, that it is almost palatable. “Oh those darn leftist rascals, they tried to cheat us out of the facts once again, I guess we have to uncover yet another forged document, another staged event, another pack of lies”.

The US and Israel are routinely slandered, painted by con men and hucksters with press passes as the “bad guy”, and with impunity, growing more and more brazen with each passing day.

Roger Simon has “blacklisted” himself in Hollywood because he has come to the moral conclusion that he would rather be honorable with himself than to be thought chic, by propaganda wing in film and TV. One has to risk being shunned, become a leper or outcast to simply ask for basic fairness and truth. David Mamet and David Horowitz and Dennis Miller have fought the same internal struggle. Risk, killing a career by not selling out their honor.

What does it say about us as a people, as a nation, as men and women of honor when we merely tsk tsk “those darn leftists” when they yet again bastardize the truth in their “by any means necessary” assault on Israel and the US?

Where is the moral outrage? Where is the demand for an apology? It is lost in the sea of overt and subliminal peer pressure to not be “uncool”. The left has their shepherds and their sheep. The shepherds know that they are spreading vicious lies and mass distortions, snickering at the imbeciles who lap it up and regurgitate it, as seen on these pages.

The dupes who buy into it, pop culture groupies who can’t stand up to peer pressure, foaming at the mouth on Koz Kidz and Huffington, lapping up propaganda and belching ignorance…while the truth gets gang raped by the NYTimes, Reuters, CNN and MSNBC.

Yon and Totten and Roggio are heroes…but, if Joe is what gets attention…perhaps the former, those hardworking stars… will garner the kudos they deserve. Though, it is terribly sad, heartbreaking really, to any loyal and honorable countryman…that ANY of them are necessary to get what we ought to expect from a quasi-public trust. An information stream that gives us truth, not leftist propaganda. We have lost that. And I’m afraid, forever. We are all the lesser for it. We have been demeaned. We are being defrauded.

Without truth, we are adrift. Without honor, we are abandoned. If, to self-govern, we need truth and facts, we are being driven by cowards, liars and traitors. Who are these people who steal my information stream? And clear the path to hell with their agenda?

They are no less than the enemy.

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:59 am 55. Rflick:

I think everyone is in agreement that there are issues with mainstream media coverage. Saying that you’re boldly attacking these issues by sending Joe the Plumber, however, is asinine. Don’t tether this to a critique of mainstream media, if you really cared about the failures of it you’d be addressing it in a more focused and logical way. From a logical standpoint, this a stab in the dark. From a media standpoint, it’s a stunt. Congratulations on your audacity.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:06 am 56. TomJW:

31. Dean:
Jan 14, 2009 – 7:14 pm

Read articles in the news in a field you are an expert in in from the MSM. Then you will know what real dummies sound like. Just to make sure that it is not just your profession they are ignorant of, talk to others about articles in their field. As my lawyer brother said after reading a news article he interviewed for, “They got half the quotes wrong and all of the rest of the facts. In other words, a typical news article.”

Someone who starts off letting you know how they feel about the story they are reporting on is in another universe from the MSM. It’s an honest one that we won’t hear from the MSM. I’ll go with that.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:07 am 57. TomJW:

47. Pete:
Jan 14, 2009 – 11:24 pm

They didn’t ban all the MSM, only the ones who hate them… oh right, that is all of the MSM.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:12 am 58. Tex Lovera:

MSM = Shiny, polished lies.

Joe = raw, ugly truth

Which you choose says a lot about you.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:39 am 59. scott:

joe cant claim the journalist moniker–opinionist? editorialist? looking forward to your report from Gaza.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:41 am 60. scott:

what? no gaza reporting? oh joe!!!!!

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:43 am 61. Peter the Bubblehead:

29. ILikeIke wrote:
Perhaps because your views aren’t very mainstream????? Did that ever occur to you?

Peter resplies: So you are saying that the MAINSTREAM view is everyone thinks Israel is evil and the Hamas terrorists are the poor victims?

If that’s the case, then yes, I am FAR outside the mainstream.

Did it ever occur to you, ike, that the media’s job it to report the facts and let the public decide for itself who the good guys and bad guys are? Are they doing that? No. The MSM is the terrorist propaganda arm in everything but salery, and I’m not even entirely sure about that!

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:13 am 62. Peter the Bubblehead:

And once again liberal looney lefties like Dean #31, when they can’t comment intelligently on the topic at hand, feel the need to resort to insult and innuendo. You know nothing about Joe, his IQ level, his intelligence, his schooling or anything. For all you know, he could have an IQ twice that of yours. But you feel the need to tear down something you consider a threat to your ‘world view.’

The answer is simple. If you don’t like Joe, DON’T WATCH HIM! No one is FORCING you!

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:16 am 63. Pete:

DavidH.

How will we ever know as long as they suppress freedom of reporting.

As for atrocities, how about herding people into buildings then deliberately shelling them, or shelling schools.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:20 am 64. Peter the Bubblehead:

38. ILikeIke wrote:
To rrr: Do yourself a favor. Learn how to engage people you disagree with.

Peter writes: I thought rrr did a very good job of engagement. It got a rise out of YOUR hackles, didn’t it?

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:20 am 65. Peter the Bubblehead:

39. Pat J wrote:
To me there’s nothing wrong from hearing the Palestinian side of things.

Peter suggests: Pat, you want to hear the Arab side of this conflict, then simply watch ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, etc, et al…, because they are all just propaganda wings for the terrorist killers.

Anything but FoxNews.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:22 am 66. Delayna D.:

Anyone who thinks Joe Wurzelbacher doesn’t have the right to be a reporter because he’s not a “professional” needs to stop leaving their opinions on the internet until they post a picture of their J-school degree.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:24 am 67. Peter the Bubblehead:

44. venividivici:
I like Dinosaur Media, personally.

Peter adds: I second that motion! All in favor, say aye.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:24 am 68. Peter the Bubblehead:

47. Pete wrote:
Firstly the MSM have not been allowed in to Gaza, because the Israelis know that if they are, then then they would not get away with the atrocities that they are committing.

Peter asks again: If there are NO reporters in Gaza like you claim, then please explain where the so-called hospital footage (the infamous CPR scene) came from? A Hollywood studio? (When when you think about that faked footage, you have to admit that is a possibility.)

The one thing that never ceases to amaze me about all the terrorist sympathyzers and apologists on these threads is they complain about one thing (No reporters in Gaza to report on the poor poor Arab victims and the Israeli atrocities) and then point out their own gaping holes in logic and reality (That CPR footage was NOT fake! It wasn’t! It wasn’t! It wasn’t! Whaa, boo-hoo!)

All I can say is, you have my support, Joe. You have my support, Israel. You have my support, IDF. You have my support, everyone fighting against the terrorist thug killers hiding behind women and children and their religion all around the world.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:32 am 69. Laura:

#4 John,

Newsflash: The MSM IS the Palestinian side of the story. Have you been living with your buddies in a cave?

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:21 am 70. onag:

many commentators on this and other ‘joe the plumber’ articles here at pjm have accused joe of ignorance and stupidity. to them, i offer the following:
lance bennett is a political scientist, and the author of the textbook used in a university media course i am currently taking. bennett holds that the main media bias is not one of left vs. right. rather, he sees four non-political flaws, one of which is ‘fragmentation.’ this is the tendency of news reports to ‘parachute’ readers and viewers into an event, telling us only what happened here today without providing any background or context – exactly what joe pointed out in one of his reports.
jtp’s observation of the fragmentation bias indicates a level of instinct and intuition not normally found in stupid people (giving the lie to his accusers). these qualities, considered to be assets to journalists, just might make joe a natural for the job.

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:30 am 71. Pete:

Peter the Bubble Head:-

I have not blubbed about that footage, but the only footage the BBC are getting out is from a local correspondent as their own journalists are not allowed in.

If Israel has nothing to hide why prevent outside oversight?

I agree that the missiles from Hamas are just as bad, but two wrongs dont make a right matey

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:32 am 72. Anton:

After decades of faked photos and films “dispassionately” covering the Middle East how can any thinking person rely upon the News/Entertainment industry for information? Do you really believe that this time they will get it right? Really? This time at last?

If every time that I walked past my neighbor’s dog it bit me I would come to believe that, in the future, if I walked past it again it would bite me again. If the Establishement media has lied to me for decades about something why would I trust them now?

Joe isn’t the issue, The Established Media is afaid of losing control of the narrative. This is what is generating the heat coming from them. It isn’t exclusively a Right/Left issue, you can bet they aren’t happy about Kos or Huffington, they just have fewer philosophical differences with them. There is a new kid on the block and the bullies have to take a swing at him to try to put him in his place.

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:44 am 73. Anton:

So Pete, if somebody punches you that is OK then? How about if he does every day for a couple of years? Are you ever going to swing back? Or will you go to the authorities ( a.k.a. the UN) who will do nothing but blame you for not ducking fast enough?

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:47 am 74. David H:

“How will we ever know as long as they suppress freedom of reporting.”

And I would suggest that we would still not know because the MSM are serial liars and purveyors of propoganda dressed up as news…

“As for atrocities, how about herding people into buildings then deliberately shelling them,”

Now in all that I have read about Israel, including even warning people by phone and leaflets, I cannot imagine that this would be in the interests of Israel when the Media is already biased against them, let alone carried out by an army who have people who advise soldiers whether they can fire or not. It could either be a stray shell that happens, after all they killed and injured some of their own men with a mis-directed tank shell, in your logic that was not an accident? In my view that would be more likely Hamas setting the people up to be shelled so as to make Israel look bad, its not as if they do not have past form for this sort of thing.

“…or shelling schools.”

A Hamas mortar team fired near the school, knowing that firing mortars is a bit of an art, I can accept that a round could have missed the target and regretfully killed some civillians, hardly an atrocity, more like a tragic error.

Pete, the issue is that we are talking about a first world army that tries really hard not to kill people using laws and rules of engagement, fighting against a terrorist entity that sees the death of its own people as a victory, have you ever been fired at, do you know what its like to be in the middle of a confusing battle, perhaps you should go to Sredot and get a taste of it?

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:49 am 75. AnninCA:

Those who claim Joe is stupid obviously are still very perturbed that a man on the street could ask a question that embarassed Obama. Today, we see Congress dragging its heels about Obama’s stimulus package. Why? Because people see the tax cuts proposal just as Joe saw it: It’s welfare. They aren’t too keen about it, either.

I watched Joe’s interview on the PJ TV channel and found him to be forthright and sensible. He has an opinion, of course. His role allows that. But stupid?

When people judge him harshly and are obviously lack reasonable judgment as to Joe’s intelligence, then there’s really nothing to say except that the comment reflects poorly on the commenter, not on Joe.

Joe is doing a great job as a regular guy in Israel. And the premise that people would be interested in his perspective was, frankly, brilliant. I am very interested.

The news on Israel is already stale from the mainstream media. Joe’s story adds an element of surprise.

Thanks PJM.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:00 am 76. Gary Thorington:

Has the MSM explained why Israel went into Hammas. Remember when Israel was promised peace by giving up the Gaza? Has the MSM explained Hammas’s goals in exterminating the Jews and Israel? Why have they not? I don’t care what station I turn on I get the same news from either abc,cbs,nbc etc. Thats one diversity the media doesn’t care about.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:25 am 77. Peter the Bubblehead:

63. Pete wrote:
As for atrocities, how about herding people into buildings then deliberately shelling them, or shelling schools.

Peter responds: You mean the schools the Hamas terrorists are forcing innocent civilians into, then then rigging to blow up while they fire weapons at Israeli troops from atop them?

See, I can make up ‘facts’ too.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:40 am 78. Peter the Bubblehead:

71. Pete wrote:
I have not blubbed about that footage, but the only footage the BBC are getting out is from a local correspondent as their own journalists are not allowed in.

Peter writes: “…from a local correspondent…”

So you therefore ADMIT the MSM has reporters IN Gaza! Problem solved.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:43 am 79. Gary Ogletree:

Who do I trust most of any of the reporters on the scene in southern Israel? Of course that would be Joe. He is new in the biz but he has proven to be a fast learner. Since he asked that most appropriate question of Dear Leader he has been doing the job American media won’t do. They trashed him and made him a celebrity, now let them pay for it. Go Joe, give ‘em hell.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:50 am 80. ThinkingPerson:

Whenever the MSM quits giving credit to the notion that Hamas is the victim here, that will be the day they warrent credibility from me. I’m not holding my breath. Joe, tell it like you see it bub. That’s all we ask.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:53 am 81. Ann141:

BTW, I have never heard before that bolding is equivalent to “all yelling” in CAPS. Why do I think that this was invented just to use for gratuitous criticism here? (regardless of what “side” you’re on)

Cybergeezer, I like your posts.

I take it that the “geezer” part is an acknowledgement of some personal antiquity on your part (similar to my own).

I get tired of 24/7, younger generation texters/posters/bloggers (who truly do apparently know it all) acting like the older generation is stupid and offensive, when in fact we’re on a learning curve the likes of which they will never face in their lives.

I spent weeks (earlier this year) on various sites and threads trying to ascertain what a “troll” actually was. I could see that it was a highly despised role to play…but when I saw references to the fact that trolls “read a lot and then come here to post”, that scared me half to death. Didn’t want to be a troll, but you’ll have to excuse me for all the reading I do. At a rate of about 20 books amonth, including contemporary Chinese politics, GK Chesterton on Islam in England in the 1920’s, travelogues from the 20th century and from the 19th century, historical (construction and development of the Pentagon, founding fathers, WW II, etc), some light fiction to occasionally kill a couple of hours, some C. S. Lewis and some Joel Rosenberg. So does that make me a troll?? I’m still not completely sure about that.

Of course, we wouldn’t be dealing with all of this rudeness if the older generation hadn’t been laying the foundations of industry and technology since 1920 before most of you were born. (Read Zero Gravity if you want to have your mind blown about what was going on PRIOR to the Cold War regard investigations into weightlessness.)

We may occasionally cap and bold in ways that violate some rule we don’t yet completely understand. Does that mean we have to stand in the corner for a long, long time…or maybe kneel on corn kernels?

Knock it off with the sarcasm when you want to make a procedural comment.

Jan 15, 2009 - 8:22 am 82. ILikeIke:

Peter,

“Peter resplies: So you are saying that the MAINSTREAM view is everyone thinks Israel is evil and the Hamas terrorists are the poor victims?”

No, I’m saying that the MAINSTREAM view is that criticizing Israel is NOT the same thing as supporting Hamas.

The Extremist view, which you so heartily endorse, is that any unkind word against Israel is an endorsement of terrorism. It’s just not that simple, folks.

As for the conspiracy theories that the MSM is in the tank for Hamas, well…if you abandon simplistic thinking, then perhaps that won’t be your view.

As for this: “I thought rrr did a very good job of engagement. It got a rise out of YOUR hackles, didn’t it?”

Rising one’s hackles is not engagement. That’s an Ann Coulter parlor trick.

Jan 15, 2009 - 9:05 am 83. John:

Yeah, them MSM folks never ever give Israel a fair shake, or report on all those rockets the Palestinians shoot. Let’s just never mind that they rarely ever hit anything.

And lets just not even think about the fact that Palestinians might actually have a reason for shooting at Israel. The last thing we need for somebody like Joe to actually go and ask them what’s up.

In part he won’t do it because he’s a coward. Afraid for his own safety (unlike the true war corespondents who he has maligned), and in part because his tiny little brain can’t handle the fact that the world isn’t as simple as he, and you, imagine. Joe doesn’t believe in reporting. He believes in loyalty to his own side at the cost of truth. He believes in propaganda, not journalism.

So let Joe go on spouting his stupidity for the world to see. It just confirms what everyone knows. That conservative Americans can’t handle the truth, that they live in a dream world, and that they are incapable of critical thought.

Jan 15, 2009 - 9:12 am 84. David H:

54: cfbleachers, powerful comment and right on the money.

Jan 15, 2009 - 9:16 am 85. Peter the Bubblehead:

82. ILikeIke wrote:
No, I’m saying that the MAINSTREAM view is that criticizing Israel is NOT the same thing as supporting Hamas.

Peter responds: The Dinosaur Media is supporting Hamas and calling them victims. You claim the Dinosaur Media view is Mainstream America’s view, therefore you are claiming most of America supports a terrorist death-cult like Hamas.

Do YOU support Hamas? Or do you support Israel and its right to defend itself? It’s one or the other.

Jan 15, 2009 - 9:25 am 86. Peter the Bubblehead:

83. John wrote:
And lets just not even think about the fact that Palestinians might actually have a reason for shooting at Israel.

Peter responds: Okay, John. Give us the (legitimate) reason the Arabs have for shooting at Israel. Please, I want to hear this whopper.

Jan 15, 2009 - 9:27 am 87. righty:

How ironic that the MSM pretends to be concerned about Joe reporting the “truth.” Since when does MSM concern themselves with the truth. What a bunch of hypocrites!

Jan 15, 2009 - 10:16 am 88. Steve:

Bill this article is on target. I remember watching Geraldo Rivera in a camp in Kuwait, after he got kicked out of Iraq for immediately broadcasting info he had gotten from a briefing (that he’d promised to delay for 12 hours). I watched him take his cameraman away from the tents and soldiers to a bare area, with a desert backdrop, don his kevlar and helmet, crouch down as if under fire, and begin his broadcast.
The unit for which he’d revealed their location and plans had to move again, after being on the move for a day and just having set up their camp.
The terrorist groups, Hamas and Hizbollah, have a reason for shooting at Israel. They do not accept Israel’s right to exist, nor any Jew, nor us.

Jan 15, 2009 - 10:22 am 89. Pat J:

Anything but FoxNews.
——————–
Now there we can certainly agree, Bobblehead.

Jan 15, 2009 - 10:35 am 90. Pete:

Pete the bubblehead:-

No I dont, I say that he is a local hired reporter and that the BBC impartial reporters are not allowed in.

So I suppose in your opinion JOe le plumber has great integrity and is impartial?

The Red Cross an agency we trust here in the UK has confirmed that Palestinian women and children were herded in to a building by the Israelis and that they then shelled that building.

The rocket attacks by Hamas are terrible and I agree that they should not be allowed to continue, but Israel is doing itself no good by slaughtering innocents

Jan 15, 2009 - 10:46 am 91. Steve:

There is no evidence that Israel is slaughtering, or even killing in any large numbers, any innocents. If you believe the Red Cross, then you probably believe the UN Human Rights group, etc… Remember the Jenen refugee camp massacre that turned out not to be – the only people reporting in Gaza are Hamas. Hospital administrators and doctors survive by belonging to Hamas. Dissidents are thrown from rooftops. Morgues are raided for photo ops, set up and staged by Hamas.

Jan 15, 2009 - 10:52 am 92. Peter the Bubblehead:

90. Pete:
So I suppose in your opinion JOe le plumber has great integrity and is impartial?

Peter responds: My opinion is Joe is showing a side that the Dinosaur Media has chosen to ignore or (worse) deliberately chosen to cut out of the picture.

“The Red Cross an agency we trust here in the UK has confirmed that Palestinian women and children were herded in to a building by the Israelis and that they then shelled that building.”

I have found no such reports DIRECTLY from the Red Cross. Can you site a reliable link? Because sources I have seen say Hamas led civilians into buildings they rigged with demolition charges in order to create propoganda. And I am more inclined to believe my sources than anything Israelis ordered civilians into buildings and then fired upon them.

http://www.hamasterrorism.com/2009/01/13/hamas-wires-school-zoo-with-explosives/

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:01 am 93. Squirmn:

“The only reason we are here is because some of us simply refuse to sit back and watch these people poison the well of Western Civilization.”

And I thank you for it.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:11 am 94. ThinkingPerson:

#91 Steve…..Amen! Hamas is hiding amongst the innocents hoping for large casualties. These are the animals some posters here are trying to defend!

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:15 am 95. Squirmn:

90. Pete:
“The Red Cross an agency we trust here in the UK has confirmed that Palestinian women and children were herded in to a building by the Israelis and that they then shelled that building.”

Fact? I trust the Red Cross’s “reporting” as much as I believe the UN can resolve this conflict.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:15 am 96. Pete:

Peter the Bubblehead:-

Here is a link to a Guardian article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun
Looking for the Red cross link.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:21 am 97. Pete:

Here is another one from the Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5482850.ece

I am sorry, but when two such repected sources quote the Red Cross, I beleive them.

If Israel allowed in impartial reporters like joe lol, I am sure we would get the true story.

Squirmn:-

The Red Cross is an organisation of integrity, if you beleive otherwise then that highlights your ignorance

Yeah right

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:28 am 98. Peter the Bubblehead:

To Pete:

Okay, let’s disect some of the article you link to above…

“Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, singled out the killing this week of up to 30 Palestinians in Zeitoun, south-east of Gaza City, when Israel shelled a house where its troops had told about 110 civilians to take shelter.”

Okay, I believe a UN High Commissioner (which is basically a really impressive sounding title for anyone who works for the UN) about as much as I believe Bush single-handedly committed the 9/11 attack.

Second, it says NO WHERE in that article that the Israelis ordered people into the house and then DELIBERATELY fired upon it.

IF the incident happened (and I serioulsy doubt it idi as described), ever consider the house was shelled accidentally? The Israelis killed six of their own by friendly fire at the beginning of this defensive action. Who is to say, even if this event occurred, it was not also an accident?

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:34 am 99. Peter the Bubblehead:

97. Pete wrote:
I am sorry, but when two such repected sources quote the Red Cross, I beleive them.

Peter replies: I hate to point out the flaw in your arguement, but neither source ‘quotes’ the Red Cross. They cite the UN, which is as objective as the Dinosaur Media.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:35 am 100. Peter the Bubblehead:

97. Pete wrote:
The Red Cross is an organisation of integrity, if you beleive otherwise then that highlights your ignorance

Peter replies: It has been my experience that the AMERICAN Red Cross (a different organization from what you are trying to cite) is an organization of integrity and higher purpose. I don’t know about the organization you are referring to.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:37 am 101. Squirmn:

Pete:

The Red Cross is an enormous asset in the deliverance of needed supplies to areas of decimation. My problem with your statement is that they are in fact not reporters. They are not required to state the “facts” about anything. They are there to care for wounded and disperse supplies. Not, I repeat NOT, to report anything. The Red Cross employee is not required to state factual incidents, unlike the Times and the Guardian and People magazine. I also take every opportunity to fact check those organizations as well. My ignorance is my own and if I choose to highlight it, it will be at my own accord.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:44 am 102. John:

“Okay, John. Give us the (legitimate) reason the Arabs have for shooting at Israel. Please, I want to hear this whopper.”

Because in 1948, somewhere between 367,000 to over 950,000 Palestinians fled their homes and became refugees in their own land. They’ve been fighting ever since, and Israel refuses to accept the fact that they, victims themselves of ethnic cleansing, did it themselves. Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

This wasn’t about “radical Islam”, (though in part this has become one of the complications), it’s about land theft.

You may now proceed to mock wikipedia without actually disputing any of the article’s allegations.

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:48 am 103. John:

“The only reason we are here is because some of us simply refuse to sit back and watch these people poison the well of Western Civilization.”

Funny. That’s what Hitler said of the Jews. Ever hear of something called “irony”?

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:54 am 104. Peter the Bubblehead:

102. John wrote:
Because in 1948, somewhere between 367,000 to over 950,000 Palestinians fled their homes and became refugees in their own land.

Peter responds: I notice, John, that you convieniently forgot to mention the reason these 950,000 Arabs (there is not and NEVER has been a country called Palestine) fled from their homes because THEY ATTACKED A SOVEREIGN NATION CALLED ISRAEL and never for a moment considered that Israel would fight back and whoop their @$$es! Before that date, the area we know as the West Bank was a region of Jordan, the Gaza a region of Egypt. Israel DEFENDED itself (Gee, sounds familiar, kinda like what is happening today!) and kept the land in order to provide a buffer between themselves and enemies that would attack them again and again over the decades.

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:03 pm 105. Squirmn:

102 John:
“Because in 1948, somewhere between 367,000 to over 950,000 Palestinians fled their homes and became refugees in their own land. They’ve been fighting ever since, and Israel refuses to accept the fact that they, victims themselves of ethnic cleansing, did it themselves.”

Dislocation and ethnic cleansing are two entirely different matters. There is not and can not be the direct comparison you are trying to make.

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:09 pm 106. Cybergeezer:

81. Ann141:
Thanks for the feedback & support. The handle was derived after I read the book “Geeks and Geezers” several years ago.
Sarcasm is one way of weeding out the trolls with english as their second language; or posts from other countries, as I’m sure you are aware of.
It can also be facetious humor; I like to use it that way. We are supposed to be having fun; Express any opinion; Opinions can change.
I came from a die hard Democrat family; After owning a couple of businesses, you learn how “free enterprise” works.
You can’t please everybody.
You must be a speed reader; Could have a blog of book reports.
Keep us posted and keep up the good comments.

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:26 pm 107. Cybergeezer:

Oh; I use bold when I’m typing with a megaphone; Like Al Sharpton does when he addresses the public.

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:30 pm 108. FrannieM:

The MSM act as if high school never ended, that they are still the cool, popular kids (and the desperate wannabees in many cases), and now they have elected the “cool kid community organizer” president of the senior class.

How dare that uppity Joe the Plumber attempt to usurp their coolness, ie power. (OMG…a plumber????…that’s like a…you know…like…one of the TRADES, isn’t it???)

And while we’re talking about UPPITY, that Sarah Palin is certainly UPPITY too, isn’t she.

As an aside, check out Camille Paglia’s comment at Salon.com regarding Katie Couric’s “definitive stupidity.” Great read.

Jan 15, 2009 - 1:11 pm 109. John:

“I notice, John, that you convieniently forgot to mention the reason these 950,000 Arabs (there is not and NEVER has been a country called Palestine) fled from their homes because THEY ATTACKED A SOVEREIGN NATION CALLED ISRAEL and never for a moment considered that Israel would fight back and whoop their @$$es!”

Never been a sovereign country called Palestine? Tell that to the people who’d been living there for generations. You are taking a very colonial view of things, that is nothing more than “might is right”. Regardless of who was in charge, these 950k people had their own local forms of government before the cleansing, and when things got too dangerous, they ran for their lives, and the Jewish settlers who moved in were only to glad to snag their land. That’s called ethnic cleansing.

As for Israel being a sovereign nation… well sorta. It was created by the UN (that body that supposedly hates them) in 1947, and this in part is the problem. The UN cruised in, and said “hey middle east, we don’t want to let any Jews into our own countries, so we’re going to make a place for them here, on your land, don’t get pissed. LOL!” The 1948 war was a result of the fact that outside powers were telling locals how their land should be partitioned. Try for a second to imagine how you’d feel if the UN did that to you. You’d lose your freakin’ minds.

As for 1967, the surrounding nations were terrified of Israel, because they saw an expansionist state in their midst. Here was an entity which didn’t exist 50 years earlier, that was suddenly a force to be reckoned with, and it clearly wanted more land. Whether Israel was fighting for it’s life or not is suspect, because once again, they conveniently captured even more land.

I, and most liberal thinkers, support Israel, but not unconditionally. They have to be fair. At the very least they need to give back the land they took in 1967. Most Arabs are willing to negotiate a peace around this, though you wouldn’t know if for all the noise that is being made. Israel wants to make this solely about antisemitism, so that they don’t have to address any of the very real issues that need to be discussed.

Jan 15, 2009 - 1:36 pm 110. ILikeIke:

Peter, let me make this REAL simple for you.

I do NOT support Hamas, or Hezbollah, or Al Qaeda or any other Islamic terrorist organization.

I DO support Israel’s right to defend itself.

But if they, say, bomb the UN headquarters (like they did today) in Gaza, I’m going to criticize them, not out of sympathy for Hamas, but because that does not help Israel’s cause.

It’s a bit more complicated than “anything Hamas does is evil and anything Israel does is good.”

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:29 pm 111. Peter the Bubblehead:

109. John wrote:
Never been a sovereign country called Palestine? Tell that to the people who’d been living there for generations.

Peter responds: Hey John, try reading a REAL history book some time!

Here John, is the perfect explaination for what happened in history.
Many thanks to cmsent:

The “myth” of a Palestinian people or indigenous Palestine:

In an article entitled, “The Lesson of Palestine,” printed in the Middle East Journal, October 1949, Arab activist, Musa Alami, wrote, “how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? … The people are in great need of a “myth” of imagination. The myth of nationality would create “identity” and “self-respect.”

The Arab world has certainly demonstrated great skill in the “myth” of imagination. They have done such a good job that they have convinced much of the world that their “myths” are facts. Perhaps their biggest myth is the myth of Palestine. The Arab world would have us believe that the Palestinians have been in “Palestine” from “time immemorial” but were displaced by the Jews when Israel became a state in 1948. But what are the facts?

While we are not certain of the exact dates, Joshua conquered the Land God promised the Jews in the 13th century BCE. King David established Jerusalem as the capital of Israel around 1000 BCE. King Solomon built the Jewish Temple about 960 BCE. This was almost 1000 years before the beginning of Christianity and 1600 years before the rise of Islam. As Prime Minister Barak has noted, “When Jesus came to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts, he didn’t come to a church or a mosque, he came to the Temple.” It is not the Church Mount or the Mosque Mount that is fought over, it is the Temple Mount. It was the Temple Mount centuries before Christianity tried to make it the Church Mount and Islam tried to make it the Mosque Mount.

However, not to be confused with facts, in a personal audience I had several years ago with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was appointed by Arafat, he boldly declared that the Arabs had been living in the Land for 10,000 years. Based on conservative Bible chronology, that means the Arabs have been living in the Land before the Almighty created Adam and Eve.

How did Israel become Palestine and who are the Palestinians? The second Jewish war with the Romans took place in 132-135 CE. Led by Rabbi Akiva and Simon bar Kochba, the Jewish uprising was crushed by the Roman Emperor Hadrian who sought to de-Judaize Jerusalem and make it a pagan city. Hadrian renamed Jerusalem “Aelia Capitolina” in honor of Jupiter. He changed the name of Judea and gave it the name of the Jews ancient enemy, the Philistines. He called it — Palestine.

Over time, Palestine was ruled by the Roman Byzantines (312-637) [Persian interrupt 614-629], Omayyad Arabs (638-750), Islamic Abbassid’s (750-1099), Crusaders (1099-1291) [Saladin the Kurd interrupt 1187-93], Mamluks (1291-1516), Ottoman Turks (1517-1917), and the British Mandate (1917-1948). None of these rulers established a sovereign state in the Land and Jerusalem was never the capital of any empire since the time of King David. Palestine was a forgotten desolate, wasteland, but historical records show there was always a Jewish presence in the Land.

The revival of modern Jewish life in the Land began in the 1880’s with the arrival of Russian refugees from the Russian pogroms. A second wave of immigration, also from Russia, was in 1905. This was followed by later immigrations resulting in a growing Jewish population in the Land. When the Jews came to the Land, they found a malaria infested swamp in the north and an uninhabitable desert in the south. It was as if the God of the Bible had kept the Land hidden away in obscurity until the rightful owners — the Jews returned to claim it.

The Jewish pioneers did not steal the Land from the Arabs. They purchased the Land at highly inflated prices from absentee landlords living outside the Land. As the Jews worked the Land, it began to prosper. While there were Jews and Arabs living in the Land, there were many poor migrant Arab farm workers in the surrounding Arab countries who needed work. When they heard that the Land was prospering under the hand of the Jews, they migrated to Palestine to get work from the Jews. Furthermore, the British allowed many thousands of Arabs into Palestine illegally while barring the Jews from entering the Land. For the most part, the Arab Palestinians are these peasant farm workers and illegal aliens.

“Palestinians” have never been a distinct people, they have never had a sovereign land called Palestine, Jerusalem has never been their capital, there is no Palestinian language or culture, and there is no Palestinian people. It is a myth created after the Jews liberated Jerusalem in 1967.

Before the birth of the State of Israel, Arab leaders themselves denied the existence of an Arab country called Palestine. In 1937, Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi said, “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. ‘Palestine” is alien to us; it is the Zionists who introduced it.” In 1946, a distinguished Princeton professor and Arab historian said, “There is no such thing as Palestine in Arab history, absolutely not.”

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:50 pm 112. Peter the Bubblehead:

110. ILikeIke wrote:
But if they, say, bomb the UN headquarters (like they did today) in Gaza, I’m going to criticize them, not out of sympathy for Hamas, but because that does not help Israel’s cause.

Peter responds: And as I said, Israel has killed its own soldiers in accidental friendly fire. What makes you think hitting UN HQ is any less an accident. Accidents happen during war. Have you ever been in actual combat? I have. Things can get confused. Targets can be mis-identified. Weapons can go off-track and hit unintended targets.

I’m sorry, but I will put my faith in Israel before I believe the UN.

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:53 pm 113. Peter the Bubblehead:

Admittedly, I think UN HQ deserves to be hit by artillery from time to time…

Jan 15, 2009 - 2:54 pm 114. Peter the Bubblehead:

And now news is coming out that Hamas was USING that UN building as a firing station. So the IDF was perfectly within its rights to fire back at them!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950855726&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Jan 15, 2009 - 3:08 pm 115. Peter the Bubblehead:

Ike, try learning the whole story (not just the part the Dinosaur Media is willing to let you see) before you start questioning the integrity of the IDF.

Jan 15, 2009 - 3:09 pm 116. Peter the Bubblehead:

From a recent news report:
“Israel says it does not target U.N. buildings or personnel. But the Israeli officer said troops opened fire after militants INSIDE the compound shot anti-tank weapons and machine guns. He said the troops used 155 mm artillery shells.” (emphasis mine-Peter)

Jan 15, 2009 - 3:12 pm 117. ILikeIke:

“113. Peter the Bubblehead:

Admittedly, I think UN HQ deserves to be hit by artillery from time to time…”

I knew you’d say something like that…

Also, “before you start questioning the integrity of the IDF.” Seriously? I don’t believe I questioned their integrity. I believe I reserved the right to criticize them when they screwed up.

And screw up they did.

But that’s magically turned into “questioning the integrity of the IDF?”

No, that’s pointing out a mistake. No wonder you think the “Dinosaur Media” or “MSM” is biased.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:17 pm 118. John:

I’m not saying there was an official country named Palestine. I’m saying that there was a group of people living there who had been there for probably many, many generations, and they were forced off their land.

If this happened to you, it would mean war. Don’t pretend it wouldn’t. That’s what they’re fighting for. Period.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:07 pm 119. Pat J:

Hamas is hiding amongst the innocents hoping for large casualties.
——————–
Absolutely correct TK. Terrorists and cowards.

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:48 pm 120. Peter the Bubblehead:

117. ILikeIke:
“Admittedly, I think UN HQ deserves to be hit by artillery from time to time…”
I knew you’d say something like that…

Peter responds: I’m also a big believer that the US should withdraw from the UN and respectfully request they move their HQ out of New York City. The whole organization would collapse inside of 6 months.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:11 pm 121. Peter the Bubblehead:

118. John wrote:
I’m not saying there was an official country named Palestine.

But in post 109. John wrote:
“Never been a sovereign country called Palestine? Tell that to the people who’d been living there for generations.”

Sounds like you were saying there was a country called Palestine to me. Maybe you should check your previous posts before you start denying things?

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:12 pm 122. Peter the Bubblehead:

118. John also wrote:
I’m saying that there was a group of people living there who had been there for probably many, many generations, and they were forced off their land.

Peter responds: Read my entry 111 again, then repeat after me…
The Arabs sold the land to the jews. The Arabs sold the land to the jews.

Likewise repeat: If the Arabs had not attacked the sovereign nation of Israel (3 times) they would not have had their @$$es handed to them and Israel would not have needed to occupy the West Bank and Gaza.

Jan 15, 2009 - 7:15 pm 123. yoyo:

john, congradulations for continuing to see nuance where the wingtards will only see it as evil terrorists v’s courageous jews. Joe the non plumber and this article are arguing that freedom of the press in a war zone is only to be allowed to those that agree with you.

joe is not only an embarrassment because he is inarticulate, he is a shameful example of the newish culture of anti intelligence that the right wing of the GOP has been displaying. Many people on the left want an intelligent oposition, give us your best ideas and arguments not meth addled stereotypes of americans who dont know the difference between austria and australia.

Regarding this war, many of the commentators here seem to think that none of the deaths count because they are all “hamas”. Really? The children too? Israel has 1000s of reasons to be pissed off with whats happening but they are playing into hamas’ hands and they are making thousands of non militants more militant. If I had to put up with the daily humiliations of living in this region while religious fanatics of both sides (illegal settlers and mad mullahs) while my wife died due to lack of access to medical care and my children were getting sucked into fighting the israelies, when my house could be bombed by accident but I have no power 18 hours a day, who do you think I would grow to hate?

Israel has created a wonderful vibrant society but they will have to come to some accomodation with the cost they have exacted on the original inhabitants. Bombing and killing non combatants can only be a losing strategy and loose Israel support around the world.

BTW Yes hamas leadership are total F*Ks BUT a) they were legally elected, so if american actions around the world to encourage/enforce democracy means the election of governements you dont like what are you going to do? b) of course hamas is “hiding” amongst civilians-the whole area is as overcrowded as a Hong Kong apartment block, as each illigal settle ment is extended the area gets steadily smaller. where the hell could any opposition go that would not be surrounded by other businesses, schools or houses? c) finally, hamas does benefit from this disproportionate action, not even joe the non plumber can cover the fact that a handful of deaths from pathetic missiles does not equate to 1000 deaths, 30% children over a few weeks.

Jan 15, 2009 - 8:42 pm 124. AnninCA:

I think the issue about Joe the Plumber is really pretty obvious. The media is flooded with opinion-makers these days. They are all competing for the same airspace. They don’t want to be plain-old vanilla and invisible journalists who report the facts in a neutral sense. They have egos.

Joe the Plumber is getting the break of their fantasies….a chance to just be himself.

I get the resentment. What I don’t respect is the method they are using to tear him apart. It’s so nuts.

Frankly, Chris Matthews is nothing more than a citizen journalist, too. Ditto for Maddow. They all are doing exactly the same thing.

The notion that he could engender interest and, even, credibility is beyond their comprehension.

What’s really missing in this dialogue is the difference. They are claiming “head” knowledge, although I’ve sure seen plenty of evidence that they are blowing smoke about that one. He’s just talking from his heart.

Neither type pretends to be objective.

Joe the Plumber has flummoxed this group, in other words. They are hoping to destroy him, as they did Palin.

It’s all about ego.

Jan 15, 2009 - 10:09 pm 125. Pete:

Good posts John but you are wasting your time, this bunch dont do reasoned thinking only knee jerk far right reactionism.

They are not capable as you evidently are of trying to put themselves in the shoes of those in Palestine.

If this was the US and some of their land was annexed and settled upon by a powerful force, they would never give up on returning it back to the fold.

Which you bunch of cretins is just what those in Gaza want, their land back

Jan 16, 2009 - 6:11 am 126. John:

Like talking to a refrigerater…

Peter, I know what I wrote. I guess it wasn’t clear enough.

What I’m saying is that while there may not have been a nation registered with the global county clerk called “Palestine”, there were hundreds of thousands of people living in this area, who had their own local government, communinites, and whatnot, and suddenly they found themselves A) Fighting for their lands, and then B) running for their lives. This is not open for debate. It happened. It is a historical fact.

If you are going to claim that 900+ Palestinians sold their land to the Jews, you are going to have to provide a source, cuz that’s one piece of info I’ve never heard.

And back to the original argument. Joe the Plumber is, quite simply, and idiot. He thinks that reportage is a bad thing. He said it. He would keep quiet, any wrongful deeds committed by his side, and only publish info that made everyone feel good about a mission. That is the very definition of propaganda.

This means he hasn’t a clue as to how democracy works, and basically hates freedom, as do most of you.

Jan 16, 2009 - 6:23 am 127. Steve P.:

Aren’t there thens of thousands of highly qualified and well trained young conservative journalists who are literally breaking their backs out there looking for an opportunity to break into the media?? Wouldn’t it have been great to have given the Israel gig to that guy? Wouldn’t it be great ten years from now, when that ambitious young journalist goes on to be a big name at WSJ or Fox News, to be able to say that Pajamas is the premiere talent developer for young conservative journalists? Of course it would.

But instead you sent a plumber. Because you saw a quick and easy gimmick to get yourself some temporary publicity.

And then you wonder why the left has the media by the brass ones.

Keep wondering.

Jan 16, 2009 - 6:37 am 128. Peter the Bubblehead:

125. Pete wrote:
They are not capable as you evidently are of trying to put themselves in the shoes of those in Palestine.

Peter responds: And please explain why I would WANT to put myself in the shoes of hateful, arrogant, terrorist killers whose only goal is the extermination of the jewish religion before they turn their attention on the rest of the world?

You and John are the ones that need to pull your heads out of you @$$es and see the REAL world for what it is!

Don’t bother responding, because from this point on I’m just going to ignore your posts.

Jan 16, 2009 - 8:16 am 129. Cybergeezer:

WHooooeeee! Another article goes down at the pen of Peter the Bubblehead; Is this idiot syndicated?

Jan 16, 2009 - 8:23 am 130. Pete:

Peterbubblehead:-

Is that a promise, good only another twenty odd idiots to go.

Hmm “hateful” yes that could apply to you too.

“Arrogant” same again.

“terrorist killers” hmm, well as you appear to support the slaughter of innocent women and children, you could share the same box.

Peter quite frankly it is people like you that perpetuate conflict as you are incapable of seeing a situation of wrong on both sides.

Like Americans are incapable of saying they got something wrong

Jan 16, 2009 - 9:03 am 131. Rock:

When are all of you going to wake up!Why aren’t you talking about the real problem…THE MAIN MEDIA, when they open their mouth about Israel, the PLO, Hamas, politics, whatever it is, they lie lie lie. They have an agenda…

The are anti-semitic, anti-capitalism, anti-American…which means they are socialist, who want to make the USA socialist and control the American people the way they control Europe…
Under socialism, your education, expertise/training, and your desire for a better life mean nothing…say good bye to where hard work and a little drive to better yourself can pay off…
ONLY THE ELITE? WHO ARE IN POWER? WILL HAVE OPPORTUNITY FOR A BETTER LIFE…

The next four years under the new communist president of the USA will be a disaster…
Wake up Americans…

Jan 16, 2009 - 9:24 am 132. Pete:

Rock

to be honest hopefully they will, only when you have had adversity will the best come out of America. For too long you have sucked on the teat of cheap labour abroad and expansion at home. A few years set backs might keep your noses out of places your not wanted like the ME.

Hopefully we will get a primeminster who will tell you to sling your hook rather than be a tame pootch like Blair.

Until you guys learn humility and consideration of other countries you can not be considered a culture.

As Clemenceau said “America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization.”

Jan 16, 2009 - 10:19 am 133. Fred:

I love it when Joe the Dumber gets compared to the real deal like Michael Yon: go ahead and google Yon and try to find ANY similarity between a real soldier reporting on the ground and a phoney unlicensced plumber making an ass of himself – or Michael Totten – who is about as MSM as they come – if you count the NY Times, the WSJ, the Daily news, Commentary AND the LA Weekly as MSM (I do). Whittle knows that Joe the Dumber is a moron – but like the fools who compare Sarah Palin to Ronald reagan, the new kind of journalists – like Bill Whittle, aren’t really interested in the truth or the facts or anything in between – they just want to have something to say. And while the internet might look like real publishing, I wonder what a guy like Whittle would be doing if he actually had to sell nonsense like this?

Probably plumbing…

Jan 16, 2009 - 10:43 am 134. Rock:

Pete:
Obviously you don’t live over seas…I live in France, where socialism reins…When I talk to young people here, they say there is no hope for them in France…
Pete, you need to live in socialism before you so blindly support it.

Jan 16, 2009 - 11:26 am 135. A Hermit:

The real reporters are being bad-mouthed by Joe the Nutball and his Amen Chorus here because the truth doesn’t fit their ideological preconceptions.

The real bias here is on the part of the right wing cheerleaders who can’t see past the neat little black and white narrative they’ve invented for themselves. Sam Wurzelbacher is a self serving publicity hound; a perfect fit for Roger Simon and his self serving propaganda outfit…

Jan 16, 2009 - 11:42 am 136. Greg:

If only there were some Jewish folks working in the media or Hollywood, Israel would finally be able to have their side heard.

Jan 16, 2009 - 12:01 pm 137. therealduckie:

Really? Jon Stewart is now MSM? REALLY!?!?

His is a COMEDY show, not News. For crying out loud, so look at the clip of him tearing into Tucker Carlson when he tried pulling that “Why didn’t you ask Se. Kerry the serious questions?” Jon’s reply sums it up – “My show follows puppets making crank calls.”

I find it laughable that you would even insinuate that The Daily Show is serious news. Let alone part of an imaginary and self-proclaimed “anti-western” conspiracy. That, too, is a made-up ‘get at the base’ piece of nonsense and poppycock.

There is no ‘kool-aid’ so just…calm down.

Jan 16, 2009 - 1:01 pm 138. Sue:

“A Hermit”…a real fair, just, tolerant fellow….to bad he is also a BDDer.

Jan 16, 2009 - 4:16 pm 139. erik:

Joe is not his name. He is the equivalent of MSM. MSM is trash. MSM is not telling the story of the Palestinians. Go ahead and believe what you want, but this Joker is a fraud. What a spit in the face to all intelligent Americans to send an uneducated liar to do reporting. It’s the sickness that inhabits this Country…and all the idiots that support this drivel. Sadly it will be much to late before most figure this out. Good luck with life, you’ll need it.

Jan 17, 2009 - 12:28 am 140. Simon:

Joe wants to make censorship on the media, just like Hitler, Stalin and Fidel Castro.
Only dictatorship worship censorship on the media, good western democracy wants the media to be free.

Jan 17, 2009 - 4:04 pm 141. GaryB:

Has the MSM shown more buildings destroyed in Gaza than buildings destroyed in Israel. Sure. But you know why? Because relatively few buildings were destroyed in Israel and hundreds were destroyed in Gaza. Has the MSM shown more dead and injured in Gaza? Of course, but that’s because the deaths and injuries in Israel have been a very, very small fraction of deaths and injuries in Gaza. That’s not media bias. Those are facts that even the Israeli press would agree with. It doesn’t make one side morally right or morally wrong, but whitewashing the human toll (as Joe seems inclined to do) is morally wrong.

Jan 18, 2009 - 11:30 pm 142. Peter the Bubblehead:

141. GaryB wrote:
Has the MSM shown more buildings destroyed in Gaza than buildings destroyed in Israel.

Peter responds: GaryB, there is a difference between showing FEWER buildings destroyed and FEWER people killed and showing NO buildings destroyed or people killed.

The Dinosaur Media has been completely silent about what Israel has been going through in recent years, but more than willing to trumpet the suffering of the poor, innocent Arabs. Not anymore. The Dinosaur Media is on its way to extinction, to be replaced by the New Media as personified by Joe, the Blogs and the Internet. Better get used to the modern era.

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:05 am