Pajamas Media

61 Comments

Ethan:

The sexual advantages of Shi’i Islam do not outweigh the disadvantages of Islam itself. Irreligious, sex-starved westerners are not going to look at an obscure tenet in an alien religion and convert wholesale; for all the good polygamy, there’s the whole intellectual slavery, heavy demands on prayer and self-and-family mutilation festivals for the martyrs of some intermuslim conflicts to contend with.

The article quoted in this piece was probably written as a propaganda document for Iranian consumption. There’s no ‘plot’ here - Iranian youth don’t care about converting the West, they’re more concerned with emulating the West, pushing back against the Mullahs, and reawakening their pre-Islamic roots.

Jun 28, 2008 - 4:33 am Tim:

I hope you’re right, but I’m learning never to overstate the shallowness of many in our civilization.

Jun 28, 2008 - 5:06 am Roy M:

This bit of anthropology is a interesting: how this weird Yahoo group of Muslims are discussing some Muslim End-Times thought in the context of trying to convert non-Muslims, and more importantly to convert the wrong kind of Muslims. It really is.

But to take it seriously, to drink their kool-aid, and then to go further and claim, therefore, that inter-cultural relations are more dangerous to American civilization than WMDS is …less interesting.

Lets consider this while keeping a grip on reality. Some crazy people say that inter-cultural sex can convert America to Islam. An idea so crazy it has absolutely no chance of working, an idea so crazy that it isn’t even an idea. So what will happen if Muslims and non-Muslims marry? This happens: you end up with an extended family that has Muslims and non-Muslms in it. Muslims and Christians might not be brothers, but they can be cousins and grandparents, and THAT is no threat to anyone’s culture. No, thats not true..It is a threat to the culture that sees people of other faiths as an enemy to be converted or killed. It is a threat to both Islamo-fascism and plain old vanilla fascism. Maybe that isn’t necessarily a good reason to go to bed with someone but it does no harm.

Timothy Furnish says that intercultural sex must be stopped because it is a WMD for American civilization. I say it is not just our right, but our duty to have relations with people of all cultures and races. It is for the good of America and the good of the world.

Jun 28, 2008 - 5:22 am hank:

For all the noise islam makes it cannot conceal the fact that it has no ideas. When has islam produced anything worth the bother?
The West is looked at with disdain and contempt and for all the, regrettable for sure, bad things it has done and there are far too many, it has also advanced the world in very tangible ways. All modern technology is exclusively invented in the West or in countries that are heavily inspired by the West.

Materialism is of course not the be all and end all of existence, but where it comes to practical application of technology, the West has been the driving force for over two centuries.
What does islam have to offer but people going to school in Madrassas where they learn the Qu’ran by heart. What use is that when trying to solve technological problems in today’s world?

If not for the technological world, how about the spiritual world? There to, islam is deficient. Islam looks toward Mohamed as the great moral and spiritual leader. Yet Mohamed consumed the marriage to his youngest wife when she was all of 9 years of age. In the West this practice is known under a very specific term and it is not a compliment.

I want my spiritual and moral leaders to be of far stronger fiber than somebody who had a really good idea while out smoking Khad in the Saudi desert.

Jun 28, 2008 - 5:38 am Valerie:

You could call it mu’tah if you want, or you can just call it by its english name: prostitution.

Let the Muslims send us their prostitutes. We’ll give them rights and choices, and let them train for other jobs.

Jun 28, 2008 - 5:49 am Paul:

I’d rather say tax reduction is the main attraction. In the modern socialist scheme, half or more of ones labors go to taxes. Skip over to Dar el-Islam, and even as a Christian, the tax rate drops to 10%, not to mention fewer lawyers, better punishment of traditional criminals, faster ‘permiting’, etc.

I could see more moderate Muslim states using tax reduction as an attraction. Further the existing socialist state elite and state social welfare workers would, by and large, support this migration, as it would leave remaining economy and workers worse off, and thus the positions, pay, perks and ‘need’ of the socialist net/trap/ scheme would be more apparent.

Jun 28, 2008 - 6:22 am don:

I like the parts of Islam that will put women back in thier place serving men as god intended.This will make Americans bow to Islam in the future.

Jun 28, 2008 - 6:24 am Roy M:

Ethan, I was in Iran a couple of months ago. Your description of Iranian youth seems about right wrt The West, at least if by Iranian you mean Tehranian.

However I think that some are interested in pushing against broadly-defined Sunni Islam, Arabs etc which was alluded to in the Yahoo group text.

Jun 28, 2008 - 6:31 am Lynn:

hank: I don’t think they are learning the Qu’ran but memorizing it, and I do not think they are allowed to question its’ teachings.

Interesting the right hand left hand thought in Islam. Your left hand for clean and your right hand for unclean, and the convenient way you can separate the two. It’s very easy for the man to sin and yet be holy at the same time.

I could go on but it is all too depressing. I agree with Valerie that it is prostitution under the guise of righteousness.

Jun 28, 2008 - 6:49 am Patterson:

“Let the Muslims send us their prostitutes. We’ll give them rights and choices, and let them train for other jobs.”

Very well put. I agree Valerie.

Jun 28, 2008 - 7:06 am Morton Doodslag:

This theory strikes me as somewhat tongue in cheek. Once the hideous Islamic Umma gets its hands on WMDs and begins using them in their Jihad, such measures will prove far more damaging that the dographic weapon of Jihad. But make no mistake, the whole spectrum of Jihad, which is the fight to impose Islam by all means, are the real threat. While we ponder the various hydra-headed war Muslims are waging, their Jihad continues apace. It is the sheer presence of Muslims on our soil, each waging Jihad, and each representing a triumphal and permanent ceding of “infidel” land to the House of Islam which is the problem. They aren’t here to coexist. Muslims are here to dominate, as Islam mandates. We have already surrendered significantly by simply allowing them in, and then allowing them to wage Islam without fetters. Their second largest weapon against us, right after the entrenched nodus of Jihad, is our adherence to freedom of religion. Long ago the West built the mechanisms to detach secular governance from the clutches of the church. Within Islam there is no such separation. Witness the way all Islamic governments institute provisions whereby no laws can be passed which “violate” or “contadict” Islam. Sharia underpins everything, and while different Muslim societies may interpret what that means, ultimately Islam suffuses and informs everything in the end.

All the rest is window dressing. Now having established their beach heads in Dar ul Harb, the “House of War”, Muslims are waging a multifarious war ranging from bake sale to mass murder to bring about the triumph of Islam Uber Alles. It must be stopped.

Jun 28, 2008 - 8:23 am ken magalnik:

This has got to be the dumbest plan I have ever heard. Our society allows me to have a girlfriend, or several, or a wife and a mistress, or even several of those with little legal consequences, as long as I can get all of them to get along. If I can’t, I just dont see the “Honey, I wasnt cheating on you! We did the Muslim ceremony thing, its OK” line getting me very far.

Jun 28, 2008 - 8:30 am tanstaafl:

…mut`ah is not just man-made but “a divine plan,” for “when non-Muslim men learn that they can honorably have more women,” they “will flock to Shi`ah Islam.

Right. Divine. That Allah guy (it would seem) was positively obsessed with a Muslim man’s ability to get and attract women.

If, in Islamic law, a man can simply say “I divorce you” (while the woman can wind up beseeching courts for decades to set her free), another hugely convenient factor would be the mut’ah (aka the rut-ah) or “temporary marriage”.

Some imam-person recently decreed that a “marriage contract” can be negotiated with an infant as young as 1. This guy also said something about the age of sex (6 ? 9 ?) being negotiated on a case by case basis.

It was the charming and affable Ayatollah Khomenei, of course, who fatwa’ed marriageable age to 9, at which age “The Prophet” reportedly consummated his marriage to Aisha.

While disgusting, hoary old men (don’t get me started on al Zawahiri or bin laden) can, at will, ruin a 16-year old girl’s life.

Jun 28, 2008 - 9:04 am pashley:

Western civilization is already well on its way to accepting rich man/many girlfriends relationships. Its unfair to men, its demeaning to women, but the wisdom of 1000 years of Western Civilization isn’t worth spit to the hedonists in the media.

And, like multiple marriages/divorces, its a luxury that will start at the top and in the tabloids, and extend down to the less-wealthy classes with alacrity, to their detriment.

Jun 28, 2008 - 9:31 am Brickle:

So, if I understand this right, western men will convert to Islam because their prostitutes are cheaper? Then western women will convert because the western men are Muslims?

I might make sense if you take polygamy as a given, and figure than half or 3/4 of the men won’t be able to get a wife, since the high status men have them. But in a generally monogamous civilization I’ll bet on skimpily dressed western sluts over veiled illiterate hirsute Islamic rent-a-wives any day.

Anyone who thinks Islamic women are going to put out more than Western women have never experienced the awesome power of a Long Island Iced Tea.

Jun 28, 2008 - 9:39 am Peterike:

Any half-decent American male under 30 can already get all the sex he wants from the desperate hordes of “Sex and the City” girls running around. At the same time, no sane American male wants to deal with two or more “girlfriends” at the same time. It’s so not worth the hassle. And to imagine that American women will happily go along with this! Hah!

American women for decades have had the skills to wrap men around their fingers when they need to. Maybe these Muslim nitwits think this will work because they’re used to a culture in which women have no rights and they can’t comprehend a world where women can make men bark on command.

This ain’t never gonna work.

Jun 28, 2008 - 10:02 am tanstaafl:

One of the reasons Johnny Walker Lindh (”The American Taliban”) gave for converting to Islam was that he could get girls that way.

Then there is Adam Gahdan, the rather odd, ex-Californian who works these days as occasional spokesman for Osama bin laden and friends in the far reaches of Waziristan. (Gahdan has been responsible for echoing certain liberal talking points to “the west”)

He got married over there (at least once) and has fathered one (or more) children so far.

Jose Padilla had an American wife but was, nevertheless, free to marry an Egyptian girl during his travels back and forth between Egypt and Pakistan. They had 2 little boys, little fatherless boys, these days.

Moral of the story, if you’re a weird guy without a lot of genuine grounding, Islam can have certain “attractions”, which aren’t, of course, limited to forced availability of females.

Jun 28, 2008 - 10:36 am Stacy:

Color me unimpressed. Genetic displacement (I’m making up that term — don’t shoot me if someone somewhere has used it to advocate racism) is always something to take seriously, especially since it can and historically has happen when foreign men appear in large numbers and impress local women as more confident, masculine and successful than local men. Something like that could still happen in some parts of the US, but I’d say it’s wishful thinking that secular, small-l liberal westerners will convert to Wahhabi-ish forms of Islam just so they can legally have multiple wives. Especially since the current trend among young American men is to think twice before having just one wife. Even if there are large-scale conversions, it’s a lot more likely that the westerners will bring their ideas of gender equality and the almighty dollar with them, as opposed to suddenly swapping the 21st century for the 14th.

That said, it is interesting to me that my personal social circles in the Washington, DC area have long had a slow but steady trickle of WASP-type women who fell head over heels for Muslim men — until these men revealed themselves as neanderthals who expected a compliant concubine. I’m not aware of any of these who decided the answer was to put on a harem outfit and start carrying a prayer rug in the trunk.

Jun 28, 2008 - 10:37 am Charlie (Colorado):

Let the Muslims send us their prostitutes. We’ll give them rights and choices, and let them train for other jobs.

Or at least get them a market hourly rate.

Jun 28, 2008 - 11:08 am elixelx:

Hey, I´ve been into mu´tah for decades now! In the 60´s we were all into mu´tah! In fact that´s when the expression “mu´tah fooker” was coined!
My dog is into mu´tah, I mean REALLY into mu´tah, and so is my bitch!
But still no mahdi! So I guess it´ll be more, harder, faster mu´tah for me now!

Jun 28, 2008 - 11:39 am Eowyn:

This one gets filed under “just when you thought you’d heard it all.”

Jun 28, 2008 - 12:13 pm Ditto:

“…Sorry for the expression but Allah made women the bait…”

Yeah, I can see a lot of women flocking to Islam for that honorific title. [rolling eyes]

“…this will cause non-Muslim women to come to Shi`ah Islam too because an honorable and equitable polygynous mut`ah is better than being unmarried or just having flings with bad men, right?”

These guys have no clue about western women, do they? The reason western men might be interested in this women-as-convenient-bait thing is because western women have gotten past that whole “I’m not worthy unless I have a man” thing.

But don’t worry — the west has many “secret weapons” as well. Lorena Bobbitt, for instance…

Besides, what would happen to Hollywood if actresses eliminate “just having flings” with bad men? (don’t get mad, I’m joking)

Jun 28, 2008 - 12:42 pm vb:

I don’t think the average American guy will give up beer, barbecued ribs, and bikinis at the beach for a chador-clad lottery draw.

Jun 28, 2008 - 12:58 pm SGT Ted:

Well, I admit I clicked on the link because the thumbnail pic of the hottie in the half burqua, but actual devout Shia don’t let their women dress this way on the street. A fun intellectual exercise, but not very reality based. I wouldn’t trade any western public eye candy for a fake marriage. Face it, pr0n is much easier and there’s plenty of willing women who aren’t Muslim to satisfy the hookup culture.

Jun 28, 2008 - 1:01 pm Javelin:

This is such tripe. The kind of people who would object to extra marital sex are the last to convert to Islam.

Jun 28, 2008 - 1:05 pm dvd:

I love the outside the box thinking here. Problem is, once it gets going, the women pool will start getting hacked up, bruised , stoned….because the geniuses that set this in motion forgot to tell the extended family and man boys who might alos want them, bottom line this cant be good for the girls about to do the converting …….

Jun 28, 2008 - 1:27 pm Roy M:

Women can make men here ‘bark on command’. There is easy availability of pr0n and willing women in the hook-up culture. And in any case you can always ply women with alcohol until they ‘put out’.

I never thought that readers of PJM would be such romantic fools. I’m filling up here.

Jun 28, 2008 - 1:32 pm seguin:

Texas? Was that their little crack or yours? We don’t throw people in jail for infidelity or womanizing. If we did our college population would be non-existent.

Jun 28, 2008 - 1:32 pm memomachine:

Hmmmm.

My opinion? Bullshit.

Why?

Blowjobs are not allowed.

http://antomlife.com/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=aZGfk3

“Islam stands for a proper and natural relations between the two couples. Therefore, all the marital relations should not contradict the nature of the proper actions. In this regard, Islam was silent on details of the private actions or relations between the couples. They have to respect the culture and what is proven to be in the interests of both parties.

Medically speaking, these actions have been proven to be leading to some disease such as cancer and other diseases.

The legal maxim states that any means leading to evil or harm has to be blocked. In this regard, the couple should avoid such an act as it has been proven medically to be unhealthy.”

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543892

“Muslim jurists are of the opinion that it is lawful for the husband to perform cunnilingus on his wife, or a wife to perform the similar act for her husband (fellatio) and there is no wrong in doing so. But if sucking leads to releasing semen, then it is Makruh (blameworthy), but there is no decisive evidence (to forbid it). ”

Oh yeah. That’ll draw them in.

Jun 28, 2008 - 1:35 pm Shawn Levasseur:

Feh, It’s not like people are getting stoned or prosecuted for sexual activity in the West.

This article is B.S. it’s all to easy to have sexual affairs in the West. This offers nothing that isn’t already available. In fact the pool of available women is greater outside of Islam, due to the fact that women are permitted greater sexual freedoms outside of Islam.

Jun 28, 2008 - 2:17 pm abu al-fin:

Hey, do they have any of those mut’ahs in drive-through? I don’t have a lot of time for mut’ah, so anything they can do to expedite the process would be appreciated. If it’s good enough, I may even start calling it mut-aahhhhhhh!

Jun 28, 2008 - 2:29 pm Chip:

Wife beating

Sex with children as young as Aisha (9). Or Google “thighing” if you want to hurl.

Polygamy

Temporary marriages like prostitution

Need four male witnesses to prove rape

Blood money

Honor killing

Female genital mutilation

(not comprehensive, just highlights)

I mean, what’s not to love in Islam?

Jun 28, 2008 - 3:05 pm Uncle Ralph:

Thanks for the article! It buttresses a contention that among some followers of he who must not be cartooned there is a marked paucity of intellectuals*.

* “An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex.” — Aldous Huxley

Jun 28, 2008 - 3:20 pm aloysiusmiller:

Our Muslim commentator has never heard of Lorena Bobbitt. Her husband John was into something akin to to temporary marriage. It cost him dearly.

Jun 28, 2008 - 3:48 pm Larry:

Lorena Bobbitt gave her hubby what the Muslims would call a circumcision.

Jun 28, 2008 - 3:57 pm DanB:

Multiple wives = multiple Mothers-in-Law.
I really fail to see the attraction

Jun 28, 2008 - 6:57 pm Dark Helmet:

Anything to make people feel better about hating God Almighty & America.

Jun 28, 2008 - 9:15 pm US Woman:

I say send the girls/ladies/women. They’ll be so grateful to be treated like humans I doubt they’ll go back.

In regards to Muslim women, I think

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

would be applicable.

Jun 28, 2008 - 10:48 pm ReCon USMC:

What amazes me is why haven’t Hard Core “FEMINIST “”come out against THE CRAZED Wahhabism - Islam ?
The Stoning Death of 3 women in Iran in the last 3 years who “”possibility did a no no like looking at another man her Husband “thought” wanted to have sex with him ?
The raping of a Saudi gal by 12 Rapers . She was lashed many times and got a long sentence , while the Rapers got light sentences .
The countless beheading by the Teliban and whipping of Women in the old Soccer Stadium ….. Now used for Soccer again .
Not only did Feminist not say anything but either did the UN , Human rights , Red Crescent . Our Liberal Politicians or even our Liberal Media .
If our American Troops had done these despicable acts they would all over the media world wide like a few Terrorist being hazed that are still playing on the media in the entire middle east as recueiting tools .
This is outrageous !

Jun 29, 2008 - 5:10 am tanstaafl:

Hard core feminists are more concerned with sticking it to “the man” than they are with actual suffering (or abused) women.

Hard core feminists give or withdraw loyalty on the basis of whether or not any given individual supports or doesn’t support their “issues”.

This is how HCF could continue to support Bill Clinton (and not rip Hillary for standin’ by her man) after Bill absolutely violated the fundamental HCF principle by diddling with the starstruck Monica in the Oval Office.

I hope this helps.

Jun 29, 2008 - 1:16 pm ddc:

“How you gonna keep em down on the farm after they seen Paris…?”
Foreign women, once they get to Western civilization, like the oddly bizarre idea that women can be free, will not interested. Western women look at Islam the same way anyone would look at decay. With disgust. If we think the civil war almost destroyed the country, just try to sell this garbage to the 21st century western women. Oh brother! There really WILL be a war of the sexes. Heaven help us.

Jun 29, 2008 - 2:11 pm Outsider:

“This one gets filed under “just when you thought you’d heard it all.”

Eowyn, LOL!

Jun 29, 2008 - 3:30 pm Nikki:

Check this out

http://plateauofiran.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/islamic-republic-of-hookers-drug-addicts/

Jun 29, 2008 - 8:49 pm tanstaafl:

An interesting essay, Nikki.

Towards the middle of the page, there is another essay from a temporary marriage enthusiast.

The motive, of course, is to legally (and religiously) have sex. A lot of work, it seems to me. While “the dowry” might be a single coin. The writer calls prostitution a “dirty habit”. All of these ritualistic behaviors around temporary marriage are, obviously, intended to sanitize (or sanctify) the sexual act.

What better solution could there be (than temporary marriage) ? Properly practised. this institution is a powerful antidote and preventative of ills like prostitution and other social ailments. It blocks the way to women’s selling themselves, raises the general tone of public morality, and gives needed assistance to women who, through no fault of their own, either by the death of their husband or some other disaster, have fallen on bad times…Temporary marriage preserves the aspect of purity and saves people from sin.

So many human machinations (of all religious strains) seem to be about being “saved from sin”.

I’m reminded of Islam’s absolute obsession with sex, not to mention every aspect of a human body’s fluids & functioning. If you’re worried about a personal…emission…you can always consult a mullah for a ruling or fatwa. Co-dependency, writ large.

I also recall that (some) teenagers in Saudi Arabia (as young as 13) were attracted to joining jihad in Iraq by the prospect of getting blown to smithereens and (finally) getting to see a whole un-burkahed woman in heaven, someone besides a mother or a sister.

Jun 30, 2008 - 7:56 am Joe Buzz:

I used to date this nice pretty blond girl. She once told me that she thought many Arab men were hot. I asked her why she thought that and she replied; “They spend a lot of time out in the desert sun.”

Jun 30, 2008 - 10:06 am Nikki:

Yeah, the motive is to have sex, and more of it, it is Islam. They are obsessed with SEX. Sure, it is shunned too in certain circles in Judeo-Christian beliefs, but different way and reasons. That’s a critical difference. Don’t ever underestimate some of those living in the West. It really is a corrupt Islamic culture. Iranian men who have lived in the West for 30 plus years still adhere to it too, even if anti regime and profess they don’t. Iranian women are worse. Iranian culture is much about pretense, much worse than anything else I’ve seen in the West, unfortunately.

Joe Buzz, LOL @ spending a lot of time out in the desert sun.

Jun 30, 2008 - 12:42 pm Bill:

Oh I see this idea totally taking off, right after the Mormons rule the world… if this was going to work don’t you think we’d all be mormon? Hell as a mormon the more wives you have the higher you go in heaven…and the women folk go to heaven too for being subservient to their husbands, and you still get Christ… what’s better than that?

this is half baked at best.

Jun 30, 2008 - 8:47 pm aloysiusmiller:

BS Bill

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:07 pm bilal:

As a muslim, I am truly appalled at the suggestion that temporary marriage (muta) will be used as a tactic to convert people to Islam.

Honestly, before I try to convert my non-muslim friends, I have to convert people who actually call themselves muslim. Even before doing that, I have to convert myself - Am I truly a muslim in God’s eyes, do I even know what a muslim is or am I just following some mullah telling me what to do? Have I truly understood the Quran and implemented it in my life? Does my character reflect my faith?

Also, please google mutah for yourself and see how starkly different it is from what you conceive it to be. In my own words, to the best of my ability, I’ll try to quickly sum up what I know about muta.

Muta is a temporary marriage where the two people consent to a time period that they will be together, they also consent to what the dowry (gift) will be (the male has to give dowry/gift to the female), and lastly they set forth conditions (like no touching, only talking, etc.). When this is done, the two are permissible for each other for the time period decided upon, and in compliance with the conditions arranged on.

Muta is very very different from dating or prostitution btw.

With Muta, in case there is a pregnancy stemming from the temp marriage, the male is financially obligated to provide for the child and, furthermore, it is recommended (by the Prophet pbuh) for the two to marry so the child will have two parents to rear him/her instead of one.

Also, unlike dating where you have to trick someone into getting physical with them, or have to show skin to lure a person to get physical with you, with muta, you can preserve your modesty and be straightforward about both your needs right at the start. That way the rest of the time you two are together, instead of focusing on getting into each others pants, you focus on the person in front of you, the conversation is not focused on alter motives but to genuinely get familiar with each other - what a concept huh!

Also, unlike prostitution, this is a marriage and it also isn’t focused on sex but to be in the company of a woman/man who is not mahram (permissible) for you. There are no directive that “we must have sex” but rather its an affirmation of your want to be together with this person. Both partners realize that they have needs, but they also understand that there is a process involved and that getting physical is just one of many options they have (if they mutually feel like going that route). And depending on the conditions set, sex might not be an option at all, and might just be the couple talking and walking together.

Also, unlike prostitution, one can not do muta with just anyone. The persons involved have to be God fearing and also have to have dignity for themselves and their body.

Now remember, these rules allowing for temp marriage are for specific circumstances only and are not practiced by the majority. Its just that Islam is for every circumstance, and there are certain circumstances where muta (temp marriage) is useful, to both the people doing it and the society as whole. For instance, in the middle east and iran, the age at which a male becomes financially stable enough to marry keeps getting higher, so what is he supposed to do if he is in his late 20’s and is not able to marry - one choice is patience and pray for marriage to happen as soon as possible (the recommended choice), another choice is to do temporary marriage (there is no monasticism in Islam, Islam does not look as sex as a bad thing, rather its a beautiful thing if done within a proper structure and in a decent way that doesn’t harm society).

Now, the issue of polygamy is an entirely different one than muta. With temporary marriage or permanent marriage, one is not allowed to marry more than one wife if he can not treat them all equally. Since this is theoretically impossible, it is something a normal muslim male would not even consider (unless he has wrong intentions, but in that case, the second marriage is invalid).

I hope that clears things up. And remember, when reading anything you are unfamiliar with, take it with a grain of salt and do your own research.

Jun 30, 2008 - 9:34 pm Tim:

Bilal,
Your view of mut`ah takes the high road, if you will, and that poster(s) on MUM take the low road, in effect. But the road goes in the same direction. Not to be Clintonian, but regarding your statement “there care certain circumstances where muta…is useful:” well, it depends on what your definition of “circumstances” and “useful” is. As for your contention taht polygamy or mut`ah are “something a normal muslim [sic] male would not even consider,” well, there are tens of millions of Muslim males in places like Saudi Arabia, Sudan and elsewhere that are, by your definiton, “not normal,” it would seem. Your rather Westernized, modernized view of Islamic marriage types is admirable but it is not the one shared by all Muslim males (or females, for that matter).

Jul 1, 2008 - 5:53 am franklyn gardner:

What? How does encouraging uncivilized behavior help anyone?

Jul 1, 2008 - 11:33 am Kay:

Ask any marine that has served in the region, these Islamic “extremist” men are HUGE porn fiends. They are the biggest hypocrites ever. I think the thought of ‘free’ women completely terrify them, and watching American porn isn’t helping.

Jul 1, 2008 - 2:03 pm Reezwan:

Uncivilized? If polygyny is uncivilized then half the Prophet’s mentioned in the Bible are uncivilized. There is nothing in the Bible that discourages polygyny. Monogamy is the biproduct of Roman influence on Christianity.

What are the women in a society to do when women outnumber men? The last US Census said there are 85.6 single men for every 100 single women.

If Western governments cared enough for their citizens they would legalize and promote polygyny because when women outnumber men in a society and polygyny is banned it leads to decadence, corruption, high divorce rates etc. Most married women would never resort to prostitution and pornography and the likes. It is when women outnumber men and polygyny is banned do these evils become manifest in a society, because these women have no other choice.

Serial monogamy is not the solution to your problem, polygyny is.

So if Western gov’ts don’t legalize polygyny what choice is left for these women?
1. Continue to live debauched or lonely lives.
2. Become Muslims and marry polygynously in a honorable manner.

BTW, LDS has also banned polygyny. Only the FLDS allow it and there are only about 10,000 of them in the world. There are about 500 million Shi’ah in the world.

For permanent marriage justice and equality between wives is a requirement. However in fixed-term marriage (Mut’ah) that all depends on the conditions of the marriage contract. Mut’ah is a flexible/customizable marriage contract which can be tailored to fit the needs of almost anybody.

So, lol, if you want women, hey the Muslim world has a surplus. The only catch is you have to become muslim first. Our women usually have no problem with polygyny so long as you follow the rules.

Jul 1, 2008 - 5:23 pm dbooth:

bilal,
You state that “Muta is very very different from dating or prostitution,” then go on to describe an arrangement that to any non-blinkered individual sounds exactly like the theocratically legalized prostitution of a sexually-repressive society. Frankly, yours and Reezwan’s heart-felt defense of this creepy practice is a reminder to the rest of us that a horrific “Handmaid’s Tale” psychosis is actually considered normal (and even inspirational?) within the House of Islam.

Jul 1, 2008 - 9:53 pm John:

There are a few things you should consider when you listen to a Muslim apologist and I believe that Reezwan and bilal are such. They are likely paid and well trained vanguard and are to prepare the way for Islam in the West. They can do or say anything that advances the cause of Islam. So if Mut ah can snare a few..it is legitimate way to convert and once converted even a little, there is good reason historically to believe that the person can be pursuaded to become more and more Islamic. Remember Islam is patient and have been advancing in waves since 670 AD. We are just seeing a new wave of Imperialism and they are the best Imperialist.

Islam divides the entire world/humanity into two—the world of Islam (Dar al-Islam) and the world of warfare (Dar al-Harb). These two worlds are in permanent confrontation, until Islam replaces the current civilization with its own version, the Islamic Caliphate

Islamic ethics are dualistic. Islam has one set of rules for Muslims and another set of rules for the kafirs (non-believers).

Kafir logic is based upon Aristotelian law of non-contradiction. If two things contradict each other, then at least one of them must be false. Islamic logic is dualistic. The Koran establishes the logic of Islam. The Koran of Mecca contradicts the Koran of Medina, but since both Korans are perfect, both sides of the contradiction are true. Dualistic logic allows two contradictory “facts” to be true at the same time. Islamic logic is built on contradiction.
Allah is the god of duality and submission. Islamic civilization is based upon the principles of duality and submission.
In his early phase in Mecca, Mohammed only talked about religious slavery to Allah/Mohammed. The Koran promises the use of violence in Hell after death. The Koran of Mecca has 67% of its text devoted to how the kafirs (unbelievers) must submit to Allah/ Mohammed.
Then in Medina, Mohammed’s message became political, and he became violent without limits towards kafirs. Mohammed made all the Jews of Medina submit to him by robbery, murder, war, assassinations, rape, torture, executions, exile and enslavement.

Some definitions and practices that you should consider regarding Islam…and perhaps you can see why even in modern times….a country can still be 100% Islamic as it is a total system and is uncompromising once in place and can use any mechanism it desires to get and stay in place.

Since we are West what we see if the interface between Islam and non Islam… a couple definations.

Taqiyya - Lying and deception of infidels (taqiyya) is encouraged. The word “Taqiyya” literally means: “Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one’s beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur’an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart. (See endnotes).
http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm

Hudna - Arabic word often translated as “cease-fire.- Historically used as a tactic aimed at allowing the party declaring the hudna to regroup while tricking an enemy into lowering its guard. When the hudna expires, the party that declared it is stronger and the enemy weaker. The term comes from the story of the Muslim conquest of Mecca. Instead of a rapid victory, Muhammad made a ten-year treaty with the Kuraysh tribe. In 628 AD, after only two years of the ten-year treaty, Muhammad and his forces concluded that the Kuraysh were too weak to resist. The Muslims broke the treaty and took over all of Mecca without opposition. This was the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah ending with Muhammad marching on Mecca along with 10,000 men.

One reason Islam advances is that like the mafia, theologically there is no way out…. So while a temporary marriage may be temporary. There is really no temporary Muslim in a Muslim dominated society.

Irtidad - Deserting of one’s faith, for a Muslim, becomes a shar’i/religious issue. As a Muslim you cannot become an apostate. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam, then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam. Apostasy or irtidad in Islam is equal to treason. Apostasy and the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society. It must be emphasized that irtidad involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one’s statements or actions imply. The punishment prescribed by the shari’a for apostasy is death. “Murtad” means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli.
A former kafir who becomes a Muslim and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.

But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended. http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html

Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word “dhimmitude” as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye’or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word “dhimmitude” comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning “protected”.

The dhimmi agrees to live in a world that is dominated by Islam in all public areas. A dhimmi is free from Islam only in his own home. Law, customs, art, education, the media, government, speech and every thing in public space is Islamic. In addition, the dhimmi has to pay a tax to Islam called the jizya tax. In Khaybar of Mohammad’s day the jizya tax was 50%.
The key psychological technique is that the dhimmi is to be humiliated in all possible ways. In effect, the dhimmi is halfway between freedom and slavery, a semi-slave. What happened over time was that the dhimmis converted to Islam. It was easier to avoid all this pain and become a Muslim.

In the 20th century, Islam became so weak that the full dhimmi status was dropped. But if you meet and talk to Christians from the Middle East today, you will find that the centuries of dhimmitude have produced, in many cases, a personality similar to an abused wife.
There is another kind of dhimmi—kafirs who become apologists for Islam, fear and defer to it. So we have two types of dhimmi—the subjugated dhimmi who is under the political power of Islam and the apologist dhimmi who seeks Islamic favor.

It is Islam that demands that Muslims write the “official” history of Islam that will be taught in the kafir schools. But it is an ignorant textbook committee of dhimmis that say, “Yes, only Muslims can write the official version.” So our history courses never report the disaster of the loss of kafir culture in North Africa, the Middle East, Turkey and Hindustan. It is the dhimmis who decide the history, Islamic studies and Middle East departments and pass on lies as truth. It is a dhimmi government of America who has decided to base all of its policies on what the imam says Whatever Islam wants, the school board, textbook committee, zoning board, politician, educator, and media reporter gives them in order to be seen as tolerant.

Dhimmis roll over for all Islamic demands on our civilization. Dhimmis are aiding and abetting implementation of Sharia inch by inch. We are losing the war of annihilation due to the dhimmis, not the Muslims. It is not that Islam is so strong, but that we are so weak. We are weak because we are ignorant.

Jul 1, 2008 - 10:07 pm Reezwan:

Your Dhimmi theory doesn’t hold up because no matter how sympathetic and tolerant you are about Islam you can’t marry our women unless you are muslim. So why remain a dhimmi? Aparently more women is not enough of an incentive.

Jul 2, 2008 - 12:42 am bilal:

John, Islam is awesome and you know it - just like Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, or any other kind of spiritual practice - all of them, are very very awesome and I’m glad they exist. You know why? Because behind each of those labels that we are so fond of exists a “human being”, and you just can’t beat that! You can’t ask for a better product for your money.

Jul 9, 2008 - 11:32 pm Steve:

It would be more accurate to say that Liberals are ignorant, or better yet they like to play Russian Roulette with the future of our freedom in the west. ACLU - CAIR and so on and so on. The real problem is they do not think Islam is a problem - it is just a religion like any other - so give them what they want - because they are loud for one, and may get violent for two, and we would not want that. Appeasement just seams so much easier. Christians can be a pain, but at least they are not trying to physically take over the world and force there religion on every living soul.

What is truly bizarre, is ALL the things that Liberals hold dear will be the first things destroyed if Islam succeeds. Say bye bye to rights for women, abortion, secular society, separation of church and state - gay marriage, it will be death for gays (litterly) - the list goes on. If you would like to seek proof of what an Islamic society would be, just study a few current Islamic societies that exist today. Saudi Arabia and Iran would be pretty good models. Gays and Women have no rights in these places. For that matter neither do non-Muslims.

In a twisted sort of sense, it would actually be kind of good for guys. Multiple women for each, easier to get all the good jobs, as women would be “put back in there place” in the home. Wouldn’t have to deal with political correctness on what is said about certain things like, gays etc - because they would all be killed if they spoke up.

To tell you the truth I am totally amazed that gays and women’s groups worldwide, do not unite and go after Islam on a daily basis. Because if Islam succeeds in what it is trying to do - gays and women will lose EVERYTHING they have gained in the last 200 years or so. Ignorance is bliss alright - and Liberals are either blind or are gambling with our very lives - as we know it. The world has seen this kind of left leaning lunacy before …. it was 1939 - when they believed that Hitler could be appeased into being a nice guy. He took there deals, smiled, signed there agreements of peace, then proceeded to start to roll across Europe. Liberals could simply not believe that something this evil could actually exist. They were wrong!!

If there are not immigration policy changes made - we will see countries in Europe become Islamic states in our lifetime. Probably starting with France. Maybe that will be a wake up call for the rest of us in the west. It is also possible that a massive civil war will break out in Europe - over the Muslim issue - sometime in the next 20 years. Bottom line is, where ever Islam exists in the world today - along with it goes problems of violence or political appeasement for the host country. So much for the religion of peace and tolerance.

Aug 22, 2008 - 11:49 pm

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