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	<title>Comments on: Cyberbullying: Despicable, But Criminal?</title>
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		<title>By: support megan</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-64347</link>
		<dc:creator>support megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the the first people who support lori drew--KENT and LEE--your comments are very insensative. I understand your points, but you couldn&#039;t have had a bit more compassion, I mean we are talking about a 13 year old girl&#039;s suicide here. I have not suffered from depression and I&#039;m counting that neither have the two of you, otherwise there would have been some understanding of Megan&#039;s thought process. The article stated shewas taking medication for her depression--meaning her parents knew about her emotional distress. It also said she was smiling a lot more and seemed much, much happier in the days leading up to her tragic death. So there was no reason for her parents to be concerned with Megan&#039;s well-being. 

we can&#039;t play the &quot;what if&quot; game here, we can only talk about what is. And what is is that Lori Drew made some pre-meditated decisions to suggest an already emotionally unstable CHILD take her own life. Nothing is more cruel or heartless than that. Whether Mrs. Drew meant her suggestion or not isn&#039;t the point, the point is that she made a decision so say those terrible things to Megan with some inclination of what the outcome may be. She isn&#039;t a ten year old boy taunting a peer, she is a 49 year old GROWN UP who had a huge part in a young girl&#039;s suicide.

She should be punished rightfully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the the first people who support lori drew&#8211;KENT and LEE&#8211;your comments are very insensative. I understand your points, but you couldn&#8217;t have had a bit more compassion, I mean we are talking about a 13 year old girl&#8217;s suicide here. I have not suffered from depression and I&#8217;m counting that neither have the two of you, otherwise there would have been some understanding of Megan&#8217;s thought process. The article stated shewas taking medication for her depression&#8211;meaning her parents knew about her emotional distress. It also said she was smiling a lot more and seemed much, much happier in the days leading up to her tragic death. So there was no reason for her parents to be concerned with Megan&#8217;s well-being. </p>
<p>we can&#8217;t play the &#8220;what if&#8221; game here, we can only talk about what is. And what is is that Lori Drew made some pre-meditated decisions to suggest an already emotionally unstable CHILD take her own life. Nothing is more cruel or heartless than that. Whether Mrs. Drew meant her suggestion or not isn&#8217;t the point, the point is that she made a decision so say those terrible things to Megan with some inclination of what the outcome may be. She isn&#8217;t a ten year old boy taunting a peer, she is a 49 year old GROWN UP who had a huge part in a young girl&#8217;s suicide.</p>
<p>She should be punished rightfully.</p>
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		<title>By: Meaghan</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-56664</link>
		<dc:creator>Meaghan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Adele -- Megan&#039;s parents actually did supervise her internet use. They had the password to her myspace account and she required permission from them to log on. They frequently checked the activity on her account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adele &#8212; Megan&#8217;s parents actually did supervise her internet use. They had the password to her myspace account and she required permission from them to log on. They frequently checked the activity on her account.</p>
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		<title>By: gus3</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-50740</link>
		<dc:creator>gus3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 02:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry Kate, but &quot;educate&quot; is not justice. &quot;Education&quot; won&#039;t bring back Megan Meier any more than &quot;justice&quot; will. And if we can&#039;t get &quot;justice,&quot; then we&#039;ll say we&#039;re &quot;educating&quot; people, so we can say we at least &quot;did something.&quot; I don&#039;t buy that.

So which is better, &quot;vigilante&quot; justice, or no justice at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Kate, but &#8220;educate&#8221; is not justice. &#8220;Education&#8221; won&#8217;t bring back Megan Meier any more than &#8220;justice&#8221; will. And if we can&#8217;t get &#8220;justice,&#8221; then we&#8217;ll say we&#8217;re &#8220;educating&#8221; people, so we can say we at least &#8220;did something.&#8221; I don&#8217;t buy that.</p>
<p>So which is better, &#8220;vigilante&#8221; justice, or no justice at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-50500</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 15:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/#comment-50500</guid>
		<description>Vigilante justice lowers us to the level of those who committed the initial misdeeds.

Far better to educate others so it doesn&#039;t happen again. One way: support the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.meganmeierfoundation.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Megan Meier Foundation&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vigilante justice lowers us to the level of those who committed the initial misdeeds.</p>
<p>Far better to educate others so it doesn&#8217;t happen again. One way: support the <a href="http://www.meganmeierfoundation.org/" rel="nofollow">Megan Meier Foundation</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: miker</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-49063</link>
		<dc:creator>miker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 20:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/#comment-49063</guid>
		<description>I agree.  The understandable desire for retribution against this horrible woman (which I certainly do feel myself) is blinding folks to the fact that there may not be any legitimate crimes with which to charge her.  She should be sued for every penny she owns or ever will own, and beyond that she should be shunned by every community in America, or anywhere else in the world.  But beyond that, we need to be careful about how far we&#039;re willing to go to punish her.    

We&#039;ve seen plenty of examples in recent years that justifiable moral outrage can lead us to make terrible mistakes.  If a case for manslaughter or child endangerment can be made against Lori Drew, that would be fantastic as far as I&#039;m concerned.  But cooking up highly questionable pretexts for criminal prosecution based on the MySpace terms of service is wrong, and it does put us all in danger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree.  The understandable desire for retribution against this horrible woman (which I certainly do feel myself) is blinding folks to the fact that there may not be any legitimate crimes with which to charge her.  She should be sued for every penny she owns or ever will own, and beyond that she should be shunned by every community in America, or anywhere else in the world.  But beyond that, we need to be careful about how far we&#8217;re willing to go to punish her.    </p>
<p>We&#8217;ve seen plenty of examples in recent years that justifiable moral outrage can lead us to make terrible mistakes.  If a case for manslaughter or child endangerment can be made against Lori Drew, that would be fantastic as far as I&#8217;m concerned.  But cooking up highly questionable pretexts for criminal prosecution based on the MySpace terms of service is wrong, and it does put us all in danger.</p>
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		<title>By: gus3</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-46211</link>
		<dc:creator>gus3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 05:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@darwin:

It was more than simply &quot;messing&quot; with her. Lori Drew knew that Megan Meier had emotional instability problems, and (allegedly? yeah, whatever) used that knowledge to induce an uncontrolled emotional state in which Meier presented an immediate danger to herself.

In your little &quot;thought experiment,&quot; you miss that a teen girl who hounded another into suicide, would be doing it for kicks, just to see how far she could push the victim. It isn&#039;t a &quot;teen prank&quot; when it&#039;s a constant, deliberate action intended to cause emotional distress. It probably borders on a social disorder (look it up).

Lori Drew never grew up. Her adolescent behavior demonstrates that. If, at 49, she is still engaging in this kind of teenage viciousness, she needs to be removed from society.

@Adele: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.terms&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MySpace&#039;s TOS&lt;/a&gt; only requires that users be at least 14 years old, which Megan Meier was not. However, &lt;a href=&quot;http://gus3.typepad.com/i_am_therefore_i_think/2006/03/the_problem_wit.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I don&#039;t know of any states&lt;/a&gt; that allow minors to enter into legal contracts without the consent of a parent or guardian, something never once mentioned in MySpace&#039;s TOS or Privacy Policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@darwin:</p>
<p>It was more than simply &#8220;messing&#8221; with her. Lori Drew knew that Megan Meier had emotional instability problems, and (allegedly? yeah, whatever) used that knowledge to induce an uncontrolled emotional state in which Meier presented an immediate danger to herself.</p>
<p>In your little &#8220;thought experiment,&#8221; you miss that a teen girl who hounded another into suicide, would be doing it for kicks, just to see how far she could push the victim. It isn&#8217;t a &#8220;teen prank&#8221; when it&#8217;s a constant, deliberate action intended to cause emotional distress. It probably borders on a social disorder (look it up).</p>
<p>Lori Drew never grew up. Her adolescent behavior demonstrates that. If, at 49, she is still engaging in this kind of teenage viciousness, she needs to be removed from society.</p>
<p>@Adele: <a href="http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.terms" rel="nofollow">MySpace&#8217;s TOS</a> only requires that users be at least 14 years old, which Megan Meier was not. However, <a href="http://gus3.typepad.com/i_am_therefore_i_think/2006/03/the_problem_wit.html" rel="nofollow">I don&#8217;t know of any states</a> that allow minors to enter into legal contracts without the consent of a parent or guardian, something never once mentioned in MySpace&#8217;s TOS or Privacy Policy.</p>
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		<title>By: darwin</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-45510</link>
		<dc:creator>darwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 07:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/#comment-45510</guid>
		<description>Also, there seem to be a lot of comments along the following lines :

&lt;i&gt;She engaged other people in her criminal enterprise with a directed goal of causing this girl to commit suicide&lt;/i&gt;.

No. There is no reason to believe that Lori Drew or anyone involved in the conspiracy had a specific goal of causing Meier to commit suicide. There is some evidence that they had a specific goal of &quot;messing&quot; with her, &quot;messing&quot; with her is a different goal than causing her to commit suicide. The fact that the poor girl happened to respond by committing suicide does not retroactively make that suicide the goal of the conspiracy.

I am frankly terrified that many of my fellow citizens apparently do not see this key distinction, or are choosing to ignore it.

=darwin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, there seem to be a lot of comments along the following lines :</p>
<p><i>She engaged other people in her criminal enterprise with a directed goal of causing this girl to commit suicide</i>.</p>
<p>No. There is no reason to believe that Lori Drew or anyone involved in the conspiracy had a specific goal of causing Meier to commit suicide. There is some evidence that they had a specific goal of &#8220;messing&#8221; with her, &#8220;messing&#8221; with her is a different goal than causing her to commit suicide. The fact that the poor girl happened to respond by committing suicide does not retroactively make that suicide the goal of the conspiracy.</p>
<p>I am frankly terrified that many of my fellow citizens apparently do not see this key distinction, or are choosing to ignore it.</p>
<p>=darwin</p>
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		<title>By: darwin</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-45503</link>
		<dc:creator>darwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 07:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/#comment-45503</guid>
		<description>Michele,

In thinking about the legal issues involved in the Lori Drew case, I think it might be helpful to try the following thought experiment.

First, remove Lori Drew and the other adults from the case.

Apparently, the daughter had access to the fake account, so this is not entirely unreasonable. If what the mother did violated federal law, presumably the daughter also violated the same law as she participated in the same conspiracy and accessed the same account.

Subtracting the adults, we are left with is a 13 year old girl registering a fake account on a website and using it to be mean to another girl in her class. 

The registering of the fake account, violating the terms of service, is apparently what makes it federally illegal. So, let&#039;s remove the technology and the way the prosecutor is applying the contract language from the equation and imagine instead that the correspondence occurred in real life, without an intermediating third party. Let&#039;s say, for example, that the notes from &quot;Josh&quot; were slipped into the target&#039;s locker.

What we are left with is a teenage girl playing a mean prank on another teenage girl and that girl ends up with her feelings hurt. You know, the sort of thing which has happened all day, every day, in every high school in the history of high school.

Yes, it is bad that teenagers bully each other and are mean to each other. No, it should not be a federal crime carrying a possible sentence of five years for hacking, even if it happens on the internet, violates Terms Of Service and the victim happens to react very badly to the bullying. 

There is no legal right to not have your feelings hurt.

=darwin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michele,</p>
<p>In thinking about the legal issues involved in the Lori Drew case, I think it might be helpful to try the following thought experiment.</p>
<p>First, remove Lori Drew and the other adults from the case.</p>
<p>Apparently, the daughter had access to the fake account, so this is not entirely unreasonable. If what the mother did violated federal law, presumably the daughter also violated the same law as she participated in the same conspiracy and accessed the same account.</p>
<p>Subtracting the adults, we are left with is a 13 year old girl registering a fake account on a website and using it to be mean to another girl in her class. </p>
<p>The registering of the fake account, violating the terms of service, is apparently what makes it federally illegal. So, let&#8217;s remove the technology and the way the prosecutor is applying the contract language from the equation and imagine instead that the correspondence occurred in real life, without an intermediating third party. Let&#8217;s say, for example, that the notes from &#8220;Josh&#8221; were slipped into the target&#8217;s locker.</p>
<p>What we are left with is a teenage girl playing a mean prank on another teenage girl and that girl ends up with her feelings hurt. You know, the sort of thing which has happened all day, every day, in every high school in the history of high school.</p>
<p>Yes, it is bad that teenagers bully each other and are mean to each other. No, it should not be a federal crime carrying a possible sentence of five years for hacking, even if it happens on the internet, violates Terms Of Service and the victim happens to react very badly to the bullying. </p>
<p>There is no legal right to not have your feelings hurt.</p>
<p>=darwin</p>
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		<title>By: Adele</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-45302</link>
		<dc:creator>Adele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 22:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For everyone so concerned about a troubled young girl being treated badly on myspace, why is there so little questioning as to whether it was appropriate for this girl to be on myspace in the first place.  Everyone seems so worried about how the laws should protect from this type of bad behavior when it seems like the bigger problem is that everyone thinks it is OK for a 13 year old girl to have an on-line &#039;romance&#039; with a 16 year old boy.  Would her death have been less tragic if it had really been a 16 year old boy who was &#039;mean&#039; to her?  As some have pointed out, there are any number of hazards lurking for children through the anonimity of the internet, yet parents continue to allow them to participate without adult supervison  -- why not just drop your 13 year old troubled child at the mall by themselves and hope for the best!! And the only way that anyone can be &#039;hounded&#039; on the internet is for them to actively engage -- deliberately and repeatedly.  Did it never occur to her mother to monitor and/or limit this child&#039;s access on the computer, or more importantly, if it was even appropriate for such a &#039;troubled&#039; young girl to be on myspace in the first place?  Using the internet for a learning tool is a far cry from unattended myspace access, and if parents are going to continue to let their children (including emotionally unstable 13 year olds) enter the internet world unattended there will never be enough laws to protect them from the hazards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For everyone so concerned about a troubled young girl being treated badly on myspace, why is there so little questioning as to whether it was appropriate for this girl to be on myspace in the first place.  Everyone seems so worried about how the laws should protect from this type of bad behavior when it seems like the bigger problem is that everyone thinks it is OK for a 13 year old girl to have an on-line &#8216;romance&#8217; with a 16 year old boy.  Would her death have been less tragic if it had really been a 16 year old boy who was &#8216;mean&#8217; to her?  As some have pointed out, there are any number of hazards lurking for children through the anonimity of the internet, yet parents continue to allow them to participate without adult supervison  &#8212; why not just drop your 13 year old troubled child at the mall by themselves and hope for the best!! And the only way that anyone can be &#8216;hounded&#8217; on the internet is for them to actively engage &#8212; deliberately and repeatedly.  Did it never occur to her mother to monitor and/or limit this child&#8217;s access on the computer, or more importantly, if it was even appropriate for such a &#8216;troubled&#8217; young girl to be on myspace in the first place?  Using the internet for a learning tool is a far cry from unattended myspace access, and if parents are going to continue to let their children (including emotionally unstable 13 year olds) enter the internet world unattended there will never be enough laws to protect them from the hazards.</p>
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		<title>By: njcommuter</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/cyberbullying-is-despicable-but-is-it-criminal/comment-page-2/#comment-44605</link>
		<dc:creator>njcommuter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 23:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The issue isn&#039;t the Internet.  The issue is that one person hounded another to death.  This is a lot like the gun control craziness: people confuse the means with the act.  It is reasonable to argue that using a firearm to commit murder worsens the crime, since it was using a tool of power to commit the crime.  The same might be said of the Internet.  But the place to start is with the crime, not with the tool.  And this is especially true with the Internet, whose value to learning is demonstrated by sites like wikipedia and mathworld and whose value to human freedom is demonstrated by the struggle of repressive regimes to restrict it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue isn&#8217;t the Internet.  The issue is that one person hounded another to death.  This is a lot like the gun control craziness: people confuse the means with the act.  It is reasonable to argue that using a firearm to commit murder worsens the crime, since it was using a tool of power to commit the crime.  The same might be said of the Internet.  But the place to start is with the crime, not with the tool.  And this is especially true with the Internet, whose value to learning is demonstrated by sites like wikipedia and mathworld and whose value to human freedom is demonstrated by the struggle of repressive regimes to restrict it.</p>
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