Pajamas Media

129 Comments

1. kochevnik:

Muslim extremists are simply Mother Nature’s answer to the Christofascist power grab of their land. As an atheist I don’t see the problem. Just let them go at each-other and both problems will work themselves out. Take a long vacation and upon returning problem solved!

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:38 pm 2. Fantom:

“What happened in Fort Hood was a terrorist attack by an American Muslim extremist. Live with it.
”

Nope it was an attack by an American moslim. And how long Americans will “live’ with it remains to be seen.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:50 pm 3. Michael:

The Terorist Attack at Fort Hood is further (as if anyone with an I.Q. over room temp needs further proof) that “The Religion Of Peace”/ Islam is one of the greatest hoaxes perpertrated on this Planet since the Earth was thought to be flat. I am sure the American Media will end up making a case for giving the Major the next Nobel peace prize or perhaps the President will concede his. Leon de Winter knows the plight of giving in to Islam. His Nation may not recover from their consessions.
American Christian Infidel
Michael Canzano

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:02 pm 4. Peter the Bubblehead:

Hey Kochevnik, please tell me the last time a Christian blew himself up in the middle of a crowded market. Tell me the last time a Christian flew not one, but three planes full of innocent people into buildings. Tell me the last time a Christian attacked the church of another Christian denomination, blowing it to h@$$ with dozens of not hundreds of inocent people inside.

People like YOU make me sick. Why don’t you go move to Iran so you can go live with your beloved Muslims? Let’s see how much THEY appreciate your defense of their sick cult of a so-called religion!

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:10 pm 5. prynce of darcness:

kochevnik says “muslim extremists are simply mother nature’s answer to the christofascist power grab of their land. As an atheist I dont see the problem. Just let them go at each other and both problems will work themselves out.”

Hmmm,you as an atheist better hope that the christians win because if you think extremist muslims will tolerate an atheist, you will be in for a very rude awakening.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:13 pm 6. bill:

kochevnik,

You should read the Qu’ran and Hadiths before making inane comments like this. In fact, a little historical knowledge would help you enormously. In the 6th Century C.E., the Arabian Peninsula was not controlled by either Jews, Persians, or Byzantines. It was dominated by animistic nomadic Arabs. When Muhammed raided jewel caravans, murdered their drivers and stole the loot, he was not raging against oppression; he was financing his holy war against the polytheistic Meccans. Once that homicidal maniac passed away in 632 C.E., his legacy lived on in vivid gore and never stopped. If you are a Muslim, this is your legacy. If not, you’re just pimping for the haters.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:45 pm 7. Olivia:

Agreed, Shepard on Fox was shameful in allowing the Arab Mohammedan family member to speak like that, Fox has completely lost the plot.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:53 pm 8. seanLA:

How can the military and for that matter the country sustain in the face of this? If in the military how can you follow the commands of someone whos a muslim? Can you deny the orders of a Major or superior officer?

Its really scary when the young sign up and prepare to go to war against an enemy who is not only within, but supported by the government and could be your commanding officer!!

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:18 pm 9. digitalis:

God it’s so blindingly beautiful to hear the truth shouted from on high! We who starve for the truth suffer from our version of combat fatigue and post traumatic stress disorder. The aftershocks of the four decades long cultual wars and the grotesque lies and mind control of political correctness. Your last sentence struck a giant blow for sanity and the truth: “Live with it.” To which I will add : AND GET USED TO IT. Great commentary.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:21 pm 10. HawkWatcher:

Concerning the tens of thousands of worldwide self-proclaimed jihadi attacks since 9/11; ever notice that “devout” word used a lot when describing the perps? It seems as though Muslims that follow the Koran in a literal sense are way more likely to murder than those who don’t.

These devout ones do not consider most American Muslims to be true Islamists. The trouble for us is in trying to determine which of our Muslim neighbors may become devout, and what they will do as a result of their new-found faith. We need to be vigilant, because peaceful Muslims, for whatever reason, refuse to publically separate themselves from those that embrace the ideology of violent Islamic jihad.

This is not hating on anybody, it is speaking to the truth for purposes of securing our lives. The number of cowards in the MSM and in Washington is staggering. Let’s replace them with courageous patriots who will honestly address our concerns.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:34 pm 11. John S.:

Now wait until the ACLU and CAIR sues the female
police for shooting the Muslim – Obama will side
with them also.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:47 pm 12. Ellen K:

I’ve posted similar thought on a blog at Sodahead. I think the official imposition of political correctness at all costs will remove all natural caution and leave us open to attack. We’ve had two thwarted attacks, one shootout and one massacre all by radical Islamists described by neighbors as “nice quiet guys.” At some point, discrimination becomes self-preservation. At any rate, you can link to it here:http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/on-discrimination/blog-185321/

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:50 pm 13. AZDude:

Peter the Bubblehead is completely correct. Islam is at war with the rest og the world, and itself. Any fool who is honest can see that, but a fool full of contempt and hate cannot. Why does the left defend a religion that degrades women, is so narrow-minded, and has no problem with mass murder? Because the American left and Islam both hate America and freedom.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:51 pm 14. moho:

There is only one term that adequately describes the massacre at Fort Hood: a terrorist attack. The media tries to avoid this term, but the more that is known about the killer, the more it becomes clear that this premeditated and deadly attack on unarmed soldiers and civilians was driven by his belief that Islam should rule the world.

The “Dutch Writer” preface is a typical appeal to authority to hide a bigoted person who hasn’t the slightest idea of what words mean. This is what terrorism means:

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

The most important ingredient to call something terrorism is motive. Someone must have an intent to use violence to bring about a political change. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest this. Indeed, Hasan could have been motivated solely by a hatred of non-Islamic people, and could have wanted to kill as many people as possible, and then move on, killing non-muslims everywhere he could. And it still wouldn’t be terrorism, it would be mass murder. Words have meanings for a reason, de Winter. Maybe in your mind one thing means another simply because you say so, but not outside the looking glass.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:57 pm 15. JR Dogman:

Re “How can the military and for that matter the country sustain in the face of this?”

They can’t. A society that cannot bear to name its mortal enemy lacks a survival instinct.

Idiots in the MSM are always saying how “the great majority of Muslims” aren’t violent, don’t seek to destroy the West, blah-blah-blah. For nine years now they have diligently avoided any serious consideration of the nature of Islam, and their remarks reflect not just their deepest desire for peace at any price, but their actual ignorance regarding this faith.

In contrast, those who haven’t buried their heads in the sand know the reality is in fact close to the following: the vast majority of Muslims around the world, including in the US, *at a minimum* feel conflicted about religious pluralism and democracy. A sizeable minority feel no such conflict: their goal is an Islamic planet, and they are hard at work in many ways to achieve this ultimate aim. It is their passion and certainty, contrasted with the weakness and uncertainty of the West regarding our own values, that keep the majority of Muslims in a state of conflict that leads them to passively support the jihad against the west.

Until the West can speak up for its own values, this pattern will continue. Until the MSM has been totally discredited and academia reformed, we will remain on the losing end of this war.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:07 pm 16. kochevnik:

@Peter the Bubblehead, @bill:

Yes Christians prefer gunfire, hanging and lethal injection. I see your complaint isn’t about murder per se, but that the death of the attacker. Christians prefer murder on a mass, impersonal scale. Cluster bombs and nuking cities is more your style.

The 911 pilots couldn’t even manage a Cessna a month earlier, yet they supposedly banked large aircraft better than tenured pilots. Now drone technology is out. That’s what flew the planes. Likely flown by christians.

I have lived with secular Muslims, and I would happily take them any day over hypocritical, redneck christofascists. Although you failed to explain why you shouldn’t just take each-other out.

Here’s another chance to state why any atheist should care about your stupid religious wars. I await your enlightenment.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:08 pm 17. ReNae:

Anyone who gets down to parsing words when they talk about evil of the magnitude in this and other incidents which clearly involve acts done by extremist Muslims, is in deep denial at best. What happened to righteous outrage at the forces of evil? Calling it “bigoted” or getting involved in esoteric discussions of “motive” is despicable. Evil exists and our job is to condemn and fight it.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:22 pm 18. misanthropicus:

RE #16/kochevnik

[...] The 911 pilots couldn’t even manage a Cessna a month earlier, yet they supposedly banked large aircraft better than tenured pilots. Now drone technology is out. That’s what flew the planes. Likely flown by christians. [...]

… looks to me that Roger has hired Kochy as comic relief –

Kochy, buddy, can you clarify your statement? I am a bit confused, really – and you can use your own words, don’t get intimidated.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:31 pm 19. Old Soldier:

Pretty simple. A jihadist found his way onto a domestic military base – the biggest gun-free zone in Texas. It would have been worse if an off-duty cop wasn’t there.

If we are going to pretend all Muslims are loyal Americans, can we at least let our NCO’s and officers carry sidearms on base?

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:45 pm 20. JR Dogman:

Re moho’s comment: “The “Dutch Writer” preface is a typical appeal to authority to hide a bigoted person who hasn’t the slightest idea of what words mean.”

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism

— ter•ror•ism
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. –

moho, on the definition of “terrorism” you are incorrect. As for de Winter’s being a “bigot”, broadly speaking the word “bigotry” *is* synonymous with “intolerance”. However, the nuance of the word suggests an *irrational* intolerance, and — to paraphrase an essayist whose name I can’t recall just now — intolerance of intolerant persons is completely rational.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:46 pm 21. Lynnc:

kochevnik:
actually, most of the muslims have the biggest issue with YOU – secular, sacriligous, vulgar. The major prophets in the Koran are Moses, David, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed. Jesus the Christ is not to be desecrated or disrespected if you are a believing muslim. The offense is in the sacriligious, ungrateful, and disrespectful liberal – not in the humble follower of Christ. That’s what is so scary – the intellectual product of the age of enlightenment, modernity and now post-modernism does not seem to understand YOU are the real target. 9-11 didn’t hit a Christian Church. It targeted what are perceived to be Western idols….

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:47 pm 22. Don:

It’s been nine months after calling the war on terror off with the new President and the democratic party playing the good cops and social workers so as not to offend Muslims and the Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize Committee while casting Bush and the republicans as those old civil rights violating bad cops. Well, how’s it going?

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:51 pm 23. Tammy:

Kochevnik:
You’re an athiest? Wow, it’s YOUR people(the communists) who are responsible for more deaths in the past 200 years than anyone on this earth.

Could you do us all a favor and just off yourself? I mean, you’re just a piece of meat, and no one will miss you.
Please go away.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:53 pm 24. Exactly!:

The stealth Muslims posting here and the politically correct and dangerous liberals (including Shepard Smith) would have us believe that Hasan only said “Allah Akbar” before his premeditated murder of 13 Americans because he forgot the words to “America the Beautiful”.

Only the strong will survive.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:55 pm 25. Kipling:

Okay, kochevnik, just signed himself up for a straight-jacket @16 so I want bother to comment on his absurdity.

Response to Moho @15: Not surprised to see you here in defense of evil. However, if those arguments are the best you got, I would sit this one out.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:00 pm 26. hrompik:

1. Naa, Mr. De Winter can’t bring himself to say the truth either:
a) “extremist”? extremist how? extremist muslim views are the ones that renounce jihad — they would have to pull in an “unreliable” hadith and go against all of the mainstream Islam.
b) “terrorist” acts are usually defined as those against peaceful population.
This was an act of armed jihad (struggle, by variety of means, to remove obstacles to spread and eventual domination of Islam everywhere). By a Muslim who held entirely mainstream Muslim views and decided to take the fast lane to paradise (possibly making the bigger jihad more difficult for cooler heads).

2. Kochevnik, your libels apart (yea christofascists first remotely controlled 9/11 planes then remotely controlled Osama and Zawahiri to brag about them on tape), I’ll explain — if Islam wins, you convert or die, and either way it sucks. If Islam loses, you can continue to troll sites such as this spewing inanities with impunity just the way you like it.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:06 pm 27. moho:

Evil exists and our job is to condemn and fight it.

Its difficult imagine someone of your intellect holding down a job of any kind.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:18 pm 28. psuedo thomas merton:

moho: …”Especially for political purposes”… does NOT mean ONLY political purposes, as you so very incorrectly try to force in your denial of his terrorist actions.

Secondly, you obviously are ignorant to the fact that Islam is, in fact, a political AND religious movement — there is no seperation of church and state is Islam. So even going by your overly narrow deffinition, he’s still a terrorist.

The political change Muslims want to bring about is the establishment of Islamic states where ever they can possibly do it, either by force, terrrorism, or legal means. You best check your history and your facts before posting your ignorance online…

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:19 pm 29. Koblog:

Islam declared war on non-islam from its earliest existence. It fights all non-islamic cultures to this day.

Muhammad himself said he achieved what he did though terror.

Islam has declared war on America. We won’t listen. Worse, we don’t believe it.

We can pretend (like kochevnik) that we ourselves flew the jets into the World Trade Center but to do that we would have to ignore the hundreds of other islamic terrorist acts the world over carried out against every other people group that isn’t moslem…unless our drone technology is responsible for that too.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:20 pm 30. james:

Talking to people who explain this away is both fruitless and dangerous. Every American, except liberals and those who love them, knew the second they heard his name what this was all about, and nothing said henceforth is going to change a bloody thing.
We hung up the phone after we heard “Malik Hasan.”
And by the way, stupid kovechnik, there is no such thing as a ’secular muslim.’ You know nothing about Islam if you think so.
Here’s your imbecile bumper sticker for the day; maybe you can understand at least this much:
Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:48 pm 31. rashputin:

“Yes Christians prefer gunfire, hanging and lethal injection. I see your complaint isn’t about murder per se, but that the death of the attacker. Christians prefer murder on a mass, impersonal scale. Cluster bombs and nuking cities is more your style.”

Anyone other than a Muslim willfully helping the jihad with propaganda intended to keep the public and government from reacting as it should wouldn’t post such moral equivalence crap unless they had a death wish of their own. It’s just revisionist crap, plain and simple. For any negative extreme you can name in the entire history of Christianity you can name hundreds who selflessly worked for the good of others as well as hundreds of Muslim negative extremes that exceed any and all such things done by Christians. Christianity would have to go on a centuries long murder binge to even match the numbers murdered by the atheist socialists and communists in the past century, and it would be take several centuries of deliberate mass murder for them to ever catch up with the millions upon tens of millions murdered by Islam.

Now, assuming you’re not simply a Muslim playing propaganda games, you need to quit the “stupid religions” BS and look at yourself. First, you implicitly assert that your atheist worldview is superior when in fact it is far more murderous than any religion other than Islam. Then, you assert moral equivalence between a pagan quasi-religious political system that advocates, funds, and in every way encourages, the murder of all those who don’t agree, to a religion that has as many different flavors as there are days of the year and none of them advocate murdering all of those who don’t agree with them. In the “they’re all the same” world of idiots like you, a pagan religious/political system that murders millions every year and hundreds of thousands of its own every year is not anything particularly evil, but rather just an obstacle to your own murderous and moral less worldview. That means you’re incapable of judging what evil is and totally worthless as an advocate of anything moral.

Go kill yourself if you like, but spewing false and insane comparisons does nothing other than prove that you are among those who either a) are a part of the jihad against all who are not Muslim, or b) too stupid to even recognize a threat as well as so feeble minded that you are easily misled and brainwashed. In either case, why would anyone want to attain your “level of enlightenment” when it’s obviously an empty and clueless void where empty and clueless people shuffle around with a death wish chip on their shoulders. The only question for an atheist is, “why not suicide”. The answer from most atheists is, “power over others in this life”, the same answer Muslims give just driven by a different clueless void generated by their moon god.

have a wonderful navel contemplating day

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:57 pm 32. kochevnik:

18@james:

That’s funny because I dated their daughter and know everyone and we all get along swimmingly. That trumps your shoddy supposition. Of course What can we expect from someone who can’t even abide by the rules about “avoid ad hominem attacks.” You don’t speak for any Americans, except the ones trapped in your red state trailer park. Here’s a painful fact: you lost the election! Indeed, you can’t even speak for yourself!

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:34 pm 33. Richard A.:

It will never happen, but, if I should perchance find myself one day in a mood for mayhem and mass murder, I wonder how many journalists would afterward bend themselves in to complete pretzels to find explanations for my actions, as they have done for this “devout Muslim”.

I don’t expect any, since I am white and Christian.

BTW, as time passes I am having a lot difficulty telling the difference between a “devout Muslim” and a “terrorist”. I know many Muslims, not many of them are “devout”. If any of them shout “aloha snackbar” around me, I will dive under a table.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:40 pm 34. jazzbo:

Kochevnik, I have had it with your type! I have a few relatives who spew the same crap at family get togethers and their wasted lives bear out the futility of their dogma. Without exception, these folk are hypocritical and miserable, where the rest of us are just miserable, having to listen to them vent! Go live somewhere else where your views are appreciated; Europe is a good start.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:55 pm 35. moho:

Pseudo Merton. I’m still trying to figure out which is the stupidest person posting here…you or Old Soldier.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:32 pm 36. donttreadonme:

Moho,
try to contain your glee with the carnage wrought by your brother – in – faith. Gosh, terrorist attacks by devout followers of a prophet that raped children and beheaded the innocent…hmmm, never saw that coming.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:39 pm 37. ReNae:

7. moho:

Evil exists and our job is to condemn and fight it.

Its difficult imagine someone of your intellect holding down a job of any kind.

I hold down a professional career. I’m always amused by people who bring up intellect when they encounter historically recognized truth. The concept of evil frightens you?! If you can’t find a place to recognize evil how do you recognize goodness. I have to laugh that you think I’ll care about thoughts that come from such a tiny closed mind.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:30 am 38. Jane:

moho, I think the shouting of “Allahu Akbar” sort of disproves your post. This was done in the name of his god. “Mass murder” in the name of religion? This is the 21st century, not the 12th.This was terrorism served straight up. Excellent article – its time for rational people to call it for what it is and break out of this delusion that by catering to PC for anybody just means a denial of what is. Afterall, anybody non-Muslim is just an “infidel”.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:49 am 39. Atheists and fundies are two sides of the same coin, and equally nuts:

“The 911 pilots couldn’t even manage a Cessna a month earlier, yet they supposedly banked large aircraft better than tenured pilots. Now drone technology is out. That’s what flew the planes. Likely flown by christians.”

Tin foil alert, tin foil alert. Anyone want to guess whether or not this nut job interprets his faith as the “rational” belief system?

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:58 am 40. kmbr:

**Idiots in the MSM are always saying how “the great majority of Muslims” aren’t violent, don’t seek to destroy the West, blah-blah-blah.**

It is impossible to really know this. I don’t walk around with a sign that says I despise all statists and would sit back silently, hell I’d join in the cause, if there were an effort to deport every last leftist on American soil.

Their silence is their complicity. Just as when the woman are allowed to de-veil they, very often, continue to wear the veil. It is their culture, their way of life, what they know. 9 out of ten when it comes to choose sides will choose the side of warrior Islam.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:52 am 41. rachel peepers:

President Obama lives in a world where terrorism exist never in words. He’s that monkey that proverbially hears, sees and talks no evil.

His world is made of of detecting available money and power grabs; is dedicated to redistributing wealth not just intra the U.S., but from the U.S. to foreign shores. Part and partial to that goal is to neuter the U.S. military. Destroying our nuclear capability, loosely guarding our military; from stockpiles to secrets and developing strategies that lose wars, and in the process lower morale and potentially kill American soldiers. The Afghan reinforcements will never arrive. Just another Wake Island.

What’s Obama done so for to convince us that Obama is such an over the top neo-Com?

Well, to Rachel’s way of thinking, it was the White House that’s already given the order to paint Hasan as a victim of harassment instead of an instrument of radical Islamic terror. Wasn’t it the White house that insisted the open and shut case against the Black Panther vote intimidators be dropped like a hot potato.

Wasn’t it was the White House that nominated the enormously bigoted Sonia Sotomayor to the supreme court.

Wasn’t it the White House that called a Cambridge Cop a bigot for arresting a Harvard Professor bully boy friend of Barack.

Wasn’t it the White House that ordered attorney general eric holder to brand all white men with racist attitudes, not to mention being
cowards when it comes to racial issues.

Wasn’t it Barack who sat for 20 years at Trinity Church, ground zero for sexist attacks on white women, and America? Didn’t they sell taped attacks on the white men of this country that Barack said he never saw and never wrote?

Barack Obama, the leaningest left member of the U.S senate surprised no one when he apparently orchestrated the booing of George Bush just prior to Barack’s swearing in where he choked on his lies to protect, preserve and defend the country of the United States.

Soon after, he took over General Motors, many believe so he could prevent them from developing the technologically advanced tank engines our Generals in Afghanistan are asking for; he took over the financial institutions and greased the runways for a mass takeover of everything from the internet, to the aviation industry, which I firmly believe he’s in the process of doing, as soon as he can get complete control with an overhaul of healthcare which he calls “reform”, well thats when your tax money will really start to filling Obama’s pockets.

If Obama succeeds with PelosiCare, patriotic Americans everywhere are coming to Washington trying to get through to Obama’s thick Neo-Com head that he’s going against every ideal and tradition of private enterprise that our forefather’s envisioned. But he doesn’t give a , pardon my French, rats ass, what the citizens of America want. It’s all about what Barack and his merry men carry around in their lawyerly briefcases; the agendas of communist Alinsky’s transformation tactics.

Soon on the takeover agenda, I believe will be a new 6-8 year term for Barack to be voted on by his Democratic majority, with equal years added to the Blue Dog Dems who realize these Neo Com initiatives won’t play in their conservative districts. It’s part of his strategy to get the votes that jam health overhaul down our throats, and eventually force us all to circle the drain of the expensive (for us) public option.

Another possible part of Obama’s plan is to be for the public to hand in handguns and rifles for 2 thouand dollars each. Which would effectively deplete our ability to take back our country when the final Obama plans to socialize/Europeanize and cut our military by a third of what it was, while unilaterally destroying 90% of our nuclear arsenal. You’ll hear the Russians agree to the plan but never act on it, leaving our country defenseless. Sure, they’ll be people to monitor both countries, but Obama can easily pay them off. (He’s got the money-your tax dollars)

Believe you me.

As for people like Malik Hasan. Well, he’ll probably be pardoned right after the elections in 2013.

If you don’t think that Barack’s planning a Saul Alinsky takeover of this country by the year 2012, you’ve got those proverbial rocks in your head.

Americans, you must let Obama know you wont stand for his communist shenanigans anymore. I don’t care how much money he offers for your rifles and guns. Turn the bum down. Buy as much ammo as you can afford. I know it’s in short suppply but we have to be able to defend ourselves. Most likely, Melik Hasan’s attack two days ago was just a probe into our defenses and a look at Barack’s reaction.

A President as weak as Barack comes along once in a millinium for terrorists and Russian hardliners everywhere. Why do you think Barack isn’t reinforcing Afghanistan (the war of necessity in his own lying words). I’m sure that it’s because, in two weeks, hope for victory without reinforcements, while our President sits on his hands and plays with his ears, will be lost.

Barack plans for Iraq, a war Bush won, to fall too (remember the surge that Barack in his infinite ignorance said would never work and that the war would be lost?) Well, we’ve got a namby pamby Neo Com President at the wheel, who sure seems to be trying to snatch defeaat from victory also in Iraq.

If his Panther suuogates come to quell you, don’t let them. Fight them in the cities. Fight them in the plains of middle America. Fight him on the coasts.

Remember, it’s just a month or two away from going after your guns with the lure of money. Turn this unAmerican scallywag away with a shot across the bow. I bet he and his band of merry men and women will run like scared rabbits.

I’m hoping that our soldiers coming home are being organized by Jon Voight with Hollywood money. Texas money is charged with the defense of middle America. The east coast is the question. Will they fight or will they surrender? The south, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, et al, already are reported to have militias by the thousands.

Maybe this will dissuade the Messiah Neo Com from trying to take our guns away. I don’t know. But we’ve got to be ready. I believe Russian plans to launch from Mexico, Cuba and South America. We must be ready for the fight of our lives. Next week, I’m going on youtube with clean Chicago money to get this message out. Next week, the 80th ID will announce a big move to the mid west. And Fort Polk will be put on active alert. Not by Obama. By us. This is going to try our souls. Militias are all over the internet. Make your contacts now before Obama tries to screw with our signals. Talk to your friends. I left school and have located a personal ten thousand man detachment in Central Illinois where we have hundreds and hundreds of forested acres and no one dares bother us. Most all the state sheriffs, are ready to rock n roll. If Palosi dares to vote on PelosiCare within the next two weeks, and succeeds in getting her votes, we march on DC by the hundreds of thousands, set up tents, and elect an emergency government. Worried about the Guard units around there?

Don’t be.

The only worrying that’ll be going on is Pelosi, Reid and Obama. PS. The Hells Angels don’t like the other motorcycle groups,but they love America. And I’ve got reliable intelligence they’ll come together if they believe the threat to the country is serious enough. And the only people they’ll be listening to are the officers back from Iraq and Afghanistan. I’m met only a few, but they’re tough as nails, smarat as whips, and know how to organized to fight.

When youtube starts, we’ll tell you who we are, and that will be our principle form of coded communication.

Just between you and me, when Pelosi announced victory election night, that told us the female is totally out of touch.
Anybody notice her glassy eyes? She’s already been contacted. And the little lady, as they say, is scared shoeless. From now on, my call letters are, rp. Incidentally, I fire expert with the new M-14. But don’t puy the full 20 rounds in them. Load 18 shells. No chance of jamming.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:17 am 42. BackwardsBoy:

Those who would defend the barbaric acts of islam have no business in our country, since they do not share our Christian beliefs about peaceful co-existence with others. If you find our society so repulsive, you should avail yourself of the wonders of modern technology that America has given to the world, find an aircraft and leave our country, preferably as soon as possible. You are not welcome here.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:13 am 43. Dave M.:

The problem with the “Muslim world” is that, in almost every way, it is a complete and utter failure. Thus, most Muslims know that their Allah is an imposter but they cling to this myth with a death grip stemming from their insecurity. Muslims will never allow open debate about their beliefs not because it would be blasphemy (though that is the reason they give) but because they are scared to death that they will be proven wrong.

There are plenty of “Muslims” who want to live in peace and can be very successful when exposed to the freedoms of a Judeo-Christian society. However, those are not the true believing Muslims. The true believers are the problem because they are the most insecure, have the most to lose and have the most fear that they are wrong. And they are wrong.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:15 am 44. Dave M.:

# 14 moho, You forgot the fourth definition of terrorism:

4. A Muslim running around shooting “the infidel” while yelling “Allah akbar”.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:22 am 45. Perry:

I watched the news coverage of the Fort Hood murders yesterday on NBC, CNN, & MSNBC. I also watched the first segment on 20/20 last night on ABC which dealt with Fort Hood. Without exception, the overriding theme of their “investigative journalism” was that they were searching for answers as to what on earth could have possibly made Nidal Malik Hasan snap.

Hasan was a religious Muslim and he screamed out “Allahu Akbar” as he shot off 40 rounds into the bodies of his victims. Liberal imbecilic media is seeking to dumb us down and hide the truth. Liberals don’t want to recognize evil even when it’s in front of their eyes. They equivocate, ponder, compare Islam to other religions, and so on – all in an effort to avoid naming the enemy and confronting it. The liberal media (that means almost all the media) live in a world of moral relativism and political correctness. refusing to see the truth and hiding it from us. They are NOT reporting, they are obfuscating.

Nidal Malik Hasan took his orders from the Koran and Shari’a law, which supercedes all other authorities including American law and the Constitution. Nidal Malik Hasan never “snapped”. The moment had come for him to act. He behaved as Muhammad did. Hasan was protecting Islam and advancing its cause by any and all means necessary as is incumbent on all Muslims. The only mystery here is: why on earth has journalism abdicated its mandate of reporting the facts?

This is how and where the Obamabots get their information – by not getting any – and then they slander those of us who have in fact, dug deeper and gotten informed.

“I have seen the enemy, and it is us”.

Politically, the jihad at Fort Hood (and the non-coverage) will only serve to further motivate those of us who want to bring America back to sanity and order and reverse the perilous course Obama and liberals have put us on. The elections of the past week are strong indicators of that. This incident adds fuel to the conservative fire presently igniting across the nation. We are FED UP and we don’t want to take it anymore. We don’t want to pander to Muslims or Mexicans. We want order. We want E Pluribus Unum – out of many, ONE. We want our country back!

As Obama asks: “Are you fired up? Are you ready to go?”

Darn right we are.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:54 am 46. Never For Obama:

“Because the American left and Islam both hate America and freedom.”

AZDude, you summed this up this unholy alliance in one sentence!

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:13 am 47. Tomp:

Obama, our muslim president, wants to wait for all the “facts”.
Well, start by reading Ralph Peters column at:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/call_this_horror_by_its_name_islamist_HT78Wt6NkWoCGq5HIOwlII

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:32 am 48. geokstr:

In his initial comment, kochevnik’s remark about Cessna’s and 9/11 reveals that he is a Truther, one who believes that Bush was in on the attacks on the World Trade Center. Best to ignore the ignore individuals who have succumbed to BDS.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:33 am 49. Joan:

How much more clear do Muslims need to be about their intentions for the world before we believe them? Just two years ago, Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, said on international TV, “We already have Western Europe. Now we are turning our sights on Eastern Europe and the Americas.” Read quotes from Tariq Ramadan, Qaradawi, and other Islamic leaders. They all say the same thing: They want to kill us and establish a world-wide caliphate. They don’t sugarcoat their words; they are direct and state their goals clearly. And we don’t believe them. We say, “Aw shucks, they’re just joshing with us.”

Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization and the democratic ideals of liberty. Islam doesn’t believe that any human has the right to create a government; only Allah has the right to govern humankind. Islam is all-encompassing, governing every aspect of one’s life. There is no such thing as a secular Muslim. It’s all or nothing with Muslims. Islam doesn’t allow cafeteria-style Muslims. To reject any aspect of Islam is to become an apostate, for which one can be lawfully killed by a devout Muslim.

I’m sick of hearing about the majority of nonviolent Muslim Americans. If radical Muslims took over the U.S. next week, who do you think these “peace-loving” Muslims would side with? You? A white or black Christian? Indian Sikhs? Asian Buddhists? They would side with the people who are ethnically like them, linguistically like them, the people who share the same traditions and, most importantly, the same twisted religion.

Everyone should be aware of what is going on in Europe right now. In a few decades, there will be no British culture, no French culture, or any other European culture. All of Europe will be dominated by Islam. The Europeans have been committing suicide by political correctness for decades. Muslims have been allowed to use our western legal and court systems to force their culture on us. They are doing it in America and Canada too. We will be taken over without a gunshot or a thrust of a sword. We need to wake up and smell the coffee before it’s too late. Do we have the courage to fight back? Dorothy Sayers’ comment about tolerance sums it up: “In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing, finds purpose in nothing, lives for nothing, and remains alive because there is nothing for which it will die.” God help us all!

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:38 am 50. trangbang68:

I haven’t eaten breakfast yet and a disgusting fool like Kochevnik gives me indigestion
already. Nothing like a slobbering amoral truther laughing off the murder of 13 people and trying to compare Islam and Christianity to turn the strongest stomach. Why don’t you go back to your kiddie porn sites and leave the political thinking to others who actually have the capacity to reason? And take the wise ethicist Moho the Homo with you.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:46 am 51. Anonymous:

Commenter #1 doesn’t seem to grasp that Muslim extremists want HIM (or her) dead. Anyone not following allah explicitly is an infidel. That’s you. There is posted reward for your murder. So many Americans seem to live in the fantasy that they, themselves are not targets and float blissfully above it all. As if it’s simply squabbling children

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:57 am 52. Mr Lucky:

34. moho.

“Pseudo Merton. I’m still trying to figure out which is the stupidest person posting here…you or Old Soldier.”

Still trying to figure it out? After all this time? Is stupidity relative, like everything else?

I moho, proclaim that I am of average intelligence! Therefore moho cannot be stupid!

Then again you could be making all this up, as you have said, you could be a… liar? If one does not make that assumption about you, then they are an idiot? Correct? Like you and your community service?

Issue a proclamation! None of my business!

Don’t you think is would be more inclusive to include yourself and your mirror that always agrees with you in the Grand moho Unified Stupidity Theory? And anyone who disagrees with you, of course!

moho is uncapitalized now?

Wasn’t Moho more Moho than moho?

Say hi to Van Jones for me. Some cut, huh Man.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:20 am 53. Marian:

Commenter #1 doesn’t seem to grasp that Muslim extremists want HIM (or her) dead. Anyone not following allah explicitly is an infidel. That’s you. There is posted reward for your murder.

So many Americans seem to live in the fantasy that they, themselves are not targets and float blissfully above it all. As if it’s simply squabbling children of various religions who want to kill each other (so sick of the “coexist” bumper sticker, whixh implies the same.) There is only one religious group bent on killing others. As commenter 4 has already pointed out, there’s no army of Christian homicide bombers and so on. (Would it blow your mind, commenter 1, to know that have a couple Muslims served in our church, through community outreach programs, and welcome any others brave enough to face the ostracism of other Muslims? That I, a Christian, would give my very life for the good of a Muslim?)

The unspoken assumption in our government’s constant knee-jerk reaction in these cases (”Muslim extremism? No, no, no! Couldn’t be! Islam is a peaceful religion…”)is what’s so insulting and revealing.

Implied in it is that, if the truth is acknowledged– this WAS terrorism perpetrated by a jihadist-leaning Muslim– that Americans (and especially those Christians and Jews!)will not be able to control themselves. They will seek revenge, as unthinking, instinctive animals, blinded by hatred, unable to distinguish between their friend, co-worker or other typical fellow citizen. The truth is that any random idiot who decides to hurl insults at a Muslim is a random idiot who was just looking for someone else on whom to take out his pathology anyway. We are far more hurt and placed at further risk by our failure to face the truth.

It’s not hard to see why our arrogant liberal “elite” believe that we need a nanny state, “clinging to our guns and religion” and ignorant in our failed public school stupor as they believe we are. Of course they’ll take the view that advances their political agenda (It was our military’s fault! It’s too stressful! It’s all because we haven’t kowtowed enough!) and weakens America, placing her at further risk. They always put themselves first.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:33 am 54. Mr. Independant:

Leon and others making absurd comments,

It’s the not the Religion it’s the Ideology Stupid.

The murders at Ford Hood and terrorism in general are perpetrated not by any particular religion, but by angry bigoted men.

Not that long ago a Christian terrorist organization was continuing a decades long reign of terror here in the US. This organization’s rap sheet included tens of thousand of assaults, rapes, and murders. Do you know the name of this Christian terrorist organization? It’s the Ku Klux Klan.

Now I doubt that anyone can argue with a straight face that Christianity is evil, it isn’t. So perhaps the motivation behind the KKK and Al-Qaeda isn’t religion but angry bigoted men.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:40 am 55. moho:

I hold down a professional career. I’m always amused by people who bring up intellect when they encounter historically recognized truth.

I’m always surprised that people who believe in historically recognized truth–that is, ideas that have no basis in logic or reason but have simply been grafted on to the person’s consciousness by their upbringing–can hold down a job.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:56 am 56. Jimbo:

kochevnik-”The 911 pilots couldn’t even manage a Cessna a month earlier, yet they supposedly banked large aircraft better than tenured pilots. Now drone technology is out. That’s what flew the planes. Likely flown by christians”.

You’re a real tard, aren’t you…..

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:05 am 57. Saltherring:

I am still waiting for our president to express his outrage over a murdering Muslim terrorist who infiltrated our army and killed our soldiers, on American soil no less.

Muslim extremists have declared war on the people of the United States, who they refer to as the “Great Satan”. Which side have you chosen, Mr. President? Do you stand with your Muslim brothers or the American people? We’re anxiouslyl waiting to hear from you.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:26 am 58. Honeybee:

@Rachel Peepers,

Hear! Hear! You wrote a masterpiece!

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:32 am 59. moho:

Part and partial to that goal is to neuter the U.S. military. Destroying our nuclear capability, loosely guarding our military; from stockpiles to secrets and developing strategies that lose wars, and in the process lower morale and potentially kill American soldiers. The Afghan reinforcements will never arrive. Just another Wake Island.

You sound like a dumber version of McCarthy. He could spell at least.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:34 am 60. Mike Blackadder:

I think it is true that many soldiers are under a lot of strain, and I’m sure it is particularly stressful to be deployed to a place like Afghanistan depending on the type of person that you are. I also accept that it may be particularly stressful to be a devout Muslim who will in an aggressive manner be put on the defensive about their faith.

However, the politically correct/ anti-war explanation still doesn’t make sense. If this was really about feeling tormented Hasan might have shot himself in his apartment that morning. If Hasan felt strongly about making a political statement against the war he could have stood in front of the people at Fort Hood, told a little speech and then shot himself to show how strongly he feels.

Instead Hasan went on a shooting spree, seemingly with the intention of shooting as many people as possible, and was only brought down by an off-duty officer who happened to be armed.

I’m reserving judgment calling this a terrorist plot until there is more solid evidence than hearsay and evidence that he is a ‘devout Muslim’. Though I think any reasonable person would have to be suspicious that this is the case. Either he is a terrorist or he recently converted into a psychotic (both exist in the world, though one in much larger proportion than the other). You simply can not try to color this story as though a normal person would act this way; no matter what the circumstances.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:35 am 61. Saltherring:

Moho,

Typical troll…tosses insults at other commenters while offering little or nothing to dispute what they have written.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:47 am 62. moho:

SALTHERING. when you write nonsense, don’t expect to have any of your points refuted. Or can you defend anything that idiot wrote?

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:53 am 63. macko:

Hard to follow that one RC

To me what happened at fort hood was a terrorist attack because he attacked those that were unarmed. Although I do agree that in some cases terrorist attack isn’t the best call. It was definitely a muslim attack. You could call it a jihadist attack but of course those are carried out by muslims. I’ve been waiting for man made disaster but maybe that has already been tossed out by our politically correct front office. Let’s just call a spade a spade, it was a muslim attack.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:57 am 64. foont:

Islam has been at war with the world from its inception. How can we know this? Read a history book. It has its “extemist” elements (i.e. – shook troops) and it has it “moderate” elements (i.e. – rear echelon support troops). We will suffer more of these attacks. How many it will take and what the body count will have to reach before the American people come to realize they are in a real war with real enemies intent upon our real destruction is an open question. In the meantime fools prattle on about tolerance and racism and bigotry and the cemeteries slowly fill.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:03 am 65. macko:

And don’t call him radicalized. He’s just a muslim. People call muslims radicalized when they haven’t been modernized as in they are still devout.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:05 am 66. Saltherring:

Moho @ 62:

Which “idiot” are you referring? You’ve attempted to insult about half the posters on this thread. Get lost, Troll.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:10 am 67. SJ:

#16/kochevnik and other atheist as well as liberals have it in their minds that the Muslims that are bent on killing infidels would stop when all the other “isms” are killed. News flash!! atheists are an “ism’ and if you are not a Muslim you are an infidel and therefore dead meat.
Yes we have some strong fundamentalist Christian groups in this country and some members do kill people but when they do the entire group does not stand up and cheer. Nor do they preach mass murder of all peoples who do not think the way they do.
And for those who are liberal PC’s. Spend some time living in Europe where cities have “gone along to get along”. The Sat. market in Avigion, France is along the old wall to the city. 80% of it is a Bagdad marketplace with the other 20% having French stalls. And don’t even think of walking around at night 5 blocks north of Gare de Nord in Paris.
Unlike America,where most people come to become American citizans, that is not the goal for moving to Europe for these people, they want to take over the countries and the liberals are leting them.
The only thing worse than a Muslim out to kill infidels is the PC liberal that thinks that if only we could understatnd what WE did wriong to cause them to hate us. Its simple “We are alive.” They don’t like that and if we are dead then no problem.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:13 am 68. moho:

However, the politically correct/ anti-war explanation still doesn’t make sense. If this was really about feeling tormented Hasan might have shot himself in his apartment that morning. If Hasan felt strongly about making a political statement against the war he could have stood in front of the people at Fort Hood, told a little speech and then shot himself to show how strongly he feels.

Who is pushing this “anti-war” explanation? Is it anti-war to wonder if there was a psychological reason for the act? Or are you saying that people are ascribing his motives to “anti-war” sentiment? And he could have done any number of things, so what? What’s the point of speculating about what he could have done as if it adds merit to your argument?

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:13 am 69. blotto:

mr.independent 54/aka DS: Huh?? What are you saying? The KKK hated Christians as well as anyone. Just ask any Democrat.

“…included tens of thousand of assaults, rapes, and murders.” Wow that is news to me and the other posters here. Better tell the FBI that you found more crimes committed by the KKK than they have and they spent years trying to find more. Wow, we are grateful for your service, DS.

DS if this is the best you can come up with to defend an Islamic murderer then you are no longer a worthy of adult responses.

moho: hey good to see you mr. racist. got your talking points from CAP and Kos this morning, good for you. still cannot break the old habit of non-sequitor remarks and circular arguments when you are confronted by logic and facts.

it is so wonderful to always find you here giving us your indolent insights on all topics. you are a profound person of intellect that bewilders even the most omnipotent observer.

nah, you are a moron whose only significant contribution to society is methane gas.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:17 am 70. Nedarc:

You guys just don’t get it…”Can’t we all just get along”. (The great Rodney King). Just because this poor misunderstood killer of 13 U.S. Solders yells out several times ‘ALLAHU AKBAR’: God is Great in Arabic..Means nothing, I mean, who knows he might even be a Roman Catholic privatly studying to be a priest. Give the poor Guy a break; Only if he was stopped before he killed anyone could he be called a ‘TERROREST’. We don’t want to spoil Obama’s record do we, after all the poor guy has had a couple of rough months and its so much friendlier to be P.C.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:22 am 71. moho:

Which idiot were you referring to Salthering? Half the posters here are idiots.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:48 am 72. Uli Kunkel:

As so often, Sam Harris is crystal clear:
“We are at war with Islam. It may not serve our immediate foreign policy objectives for our political leaders to openly acknowledge this fact, but it is unambiguously so. It is not merely that we are at war with an otherwise peaceful religion that has been “hijacked” by extremists. We are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran, and further elaborated in the literature of the hadith, which recounts the sayings and actions of the Prophet. A future in which Islam and the West do not stand on the brink of mutual annihilation is a future in which most Muslims have learned to ignore most of their canon, just as most Christians have learned to do. Such a transformation is by no means guaran teed to occur, however, given the tenets of Islam.”
The End of Faith, p.110

also read Wafa Sultan: A God who Hates

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:57 am 73. Federale:

Islam and Muslims are the enemy within and without.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:43 am 74. ReNae:

When you have had a little more experience and are a little less in love with the silly ideas that flitter aimlessly through your brain you will begin to realize the difference between an intellectually vapid regurgitation of current “thought” and a solid base of truth, The world recognizes evil and good even if you don’t. When it’s visited on you and your loved ones you get a different perspective. I don’t try to get children, even very bright ones who think they are very smart, to understand things they aren’t ready to understand. For a fleeting moment I had the impression you were an adult, but I see my mistake now, Go play.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:54 pm 75. Mr. Independant:

blotto #69,

Are you really surprised to learn that the KKK committed tens of thousands acts of terrorism from 1865 until 1925? If that’s a surprise to you then you obviously are ignorant of US history. You should take some time to study what the Christian terrorist organization the KKK was all about.

And I’m not defending any murderers. I’m simply pointing out what the actual problem is. I place the blame on the murderer, not a scapegoat. As I stated in my pervious post “It’s not the Religion it’s the Ideology stupid”. The problem isn’t Islam, as you seem to think. The problem is angry bigoted men.

I made the comparison to the KKK for a reason. It illustrates not a problem with religion but with murderers. You seem to think that if you eliminated a particular religion, terrorism would cease. The KKK proves that isn’t true. The Christian terrorist organization the KKK killed more Christians than non-Christians. Just like Al-Qaeda kills more Muslims than non-Muslims.

The problem in NOT the klansmen or the jihadist’s religion. The problem is the klansmen and the jihadist.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:13 pm 76. Parabellum:

There is only one term that adequately describes the massacre at Fort Hood: a terrorist attack.

No Mr. Dewinter, the correct term is Jihad.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:26 pm 77. A_Nonny_Mouse:

“The trouble for us is in trying to determine which of our Muslim neighbors may become devout, and what they will do as a result of their new-found faith. We need to be vigilant … ”
============================================

Another thing: Although most Muslim immigrants turn into “good Americans” (knowing they’ve escaped the idiocy and persecution of Islam), the downside is their kids. So many grow up as typical American kids and then hit their late teens “looking for something to do with their lives”. They rediscover their Islamic culture. They are ashamed of the “wayward” behavior –drinking, sex, materialism– of their younger days. Under Islam, repentance is necessary but not sufficient for Allah; the threat of hell is always looming over the faithful. Of course, Islam offers a guarantee of Paradise: get killed while fighting for Allah and his religion. There are apparently LOTS of miserable Muslims who find dying-for-Allah’s-glory easier than living under the strictures of Islam and all it forbids.

We can’t tell looking at a Muslim whether he’s likely to become a “good” (ie, violent jihadist) Muslim, or whether his children will succumb to the call to purify their souls that way. What we CAN and SHOULD do, is forbid ANY immigration from Islamic countries. However, our political class does not find this palatable. They feel they have to work from the ideal of “all are equal”, and damn the results in the communities they took an oath to serve, protect, and defend.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:07 pm 78. Duane:

* 62% of Koran is devoted to how Islam interacts with the kafir (the unbeliever).
* 98% of the Sira is devoted to the struggle against kafirs. (70% is jihad; 28% is argument and insults.)
* 20% of Bukhari Hadith is devoted to jihad.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:14 pm 79. Filthy Screw:

What is wrong with people on this site? The first poster is a troll, the most prolific person is a troll. Fine, don’t feed them and for Goodness sake maybe the admins could actually look at the trolling. Most of it is personal ad hominem attacks. Delete the posts or ban the posters. When you have a hundred comments and twenty are on topic and the rest are trolling, you need to do something.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:19 pm 80. moho:

We can’t tell looking at a Muslim whether he’s likely to become a “good” (ie, violent jihadist) Muslim, or whether his children will succumb to the call to purify their souls that way. What we CAN and SHOULD do, is forbid ANY immigration from Islamic countries. However, our political class does not find this palatable. They feel they have to work from the ideal of “all are equal”, and damn the results in the communities they took an oath to serve, protect, and defend.

By far, the stupidest thing I’ve ever read in my entire life. \

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:44 pm 81. Bohemond:

Actually moho, it’s an excellent idea. We should however follow it up by deporting the ones already here- like you.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:28 pm 82. John "birther" Samford:

1. kochevnik: Your mistake is thinking that because you are an atheist, you are uninvolved in this war.
WRONG! Islam sees the world as being divided in two. Muslims and those that Islam is at war with. That is what their holy book tells them. If they don’t believe that, they are NOT a Muslim.
As an atheist, your choice is the same as mine (I’m a pantheist) or any other non-muslim’s. Convert, Fight or die.
You may think you can avoid that choice, but what you think doesn’t matter. It’s what the Muslims think. It only takes one to have a fight.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:35 pm 83. HawkWatcher:

79, I can’t figure out if it’s to boost comment numbers, or to give us a first-hand glimpse at the twisted thinking of the trolls. PJ does some moderating here, other sites are much worse. Whatever their reason, it’s really getting annoying, and I do not come here as often as I once did. When it gets to the point of taking over threads like you point out, it’s time to visit other outlets that practice some moderation. There are plenty of other blogs where you will never see the useless and sometimes vicious trolling that you see at PJ. And as the garbage escalates here, other forums enjoy increased activity at their sites, as decent participation at PJ wanes. PJ and the trolls are driving themselves out of business.

Here’s an example, 79, look at the post after yours. The author had an opportunity to attack and disect the quoted opinion on Muslim immigration. I could write several paragraphs on why this is not valid thinking. Moho chooses to label the opinion as stupid, and leaves it at that. Nothing added, nothing gained, just another post number on the thread. My reply to the troll adds another.

Moho, let me play devils advocate here; are you aware that America used to restrict communist immigration? I suggest that many devout Muslims are shown to be a similar threat to our liberty and security, and immigration should be monitored closely at the very least. Do you think this is stupid? If so, why?

I don’t expect a reply, but maybe this Moho can be coaxed into revealing whether it has any comprehensive or debating skills to offer the conversation, or why it should be allowed to keep posting here at all.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:36 pm 84. rashputin:

“Are you really surprised to learn that the KKK committed tens of thousands acts of terrorism from 1865 until 1925?”

The KKK was just the armed ACORN of the democrat party in the South after the Civil War. The democrat party has always believed in using all the force it could get away with deploying in their drive to regain the role of elite owners of others, a role they lost as a result of losing the Civil War. A huge percentage of those in the South honestly felt states’ rights were the issue, but the elite never agreed with that. To the elite it was always about their right to own half the population and control the other half. The democrat elite is the same to this day and has always hidden its’ agenda behind claims of looking out for the little guy. That’s never been the case and it never will be since the democrat party will only help those who pay. Even the labor unions are on the verge of finding out that the democrat elite will shed any group once that group cannot pay the kind of money to the party that the party demands.

Democrats have always excused, justified, and even encouraged terrorism and violence against those who do not agree with the party leaders. Democrats were willing to tear the country apart in an attempt to keep their slaves back in the 1860s, and they’re willing to tear the country apart again in an effort to enslave the blacks and minorities they’ve had to bribe for the past fifty years. They’re done with bribing anyone and now want to return to owning them outright, just like they’re done with justifying abortion and ready to expand their death culture to include anyone who doesn’t fit the currently fashionable democrat definition of useful to society.

Anyone who asserts that the KKK was somehow a Christian organization is just blowing smoke in hopes of hiding the fact that it was a part of the democrat party, not a religious organization. Democrats back then paid lip service to various religions but never let that taint their drive to control the majority against the will of the majority. That’s exactly the same way they are to this day. Look at the number of democrats who claim to be Catholic at election time but support and advocate everything the Catholic Church fights against. You’re right, it’s the jihadist and the Klansman who are at the root of the problem, but it’s the Imam and the democrat operative who seek out those already oriented towards violence so they can prime, arm, and command them. Without the funding and social cover from the peaceful Muslim and the moderate democrat, neither the Klansman nor the jihadist could carry out the terrorist acts their masters expect of them.

Regards

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:51 pm 85. moho:

Bohemond

Actually moho, it’s an excellent idea. We should however follow it up by deporting the ones already here- like you.

Unfortunately there’s something called the constitution which states that our citizenship is just the same as yours, no matter what color or race we are. People like you have been trying to avoid that reality for about two hundred years, and you keep losing.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:25 pm 86. moho:

Hawkwatcher, I’m generally the only person who posts here who offers substantive arguments. I also don’t hesitate to label something stupid when it has no intrinsic value; is the product of brainless bigotry; or when I cannot justify taking it seriously long enough to spend the thirty seconds it would take to shoot it down.

We can’t tell looking at a Muslim whether he’s likely to become a “good” (ie, violent jihadist) Muslim, or whether his children will succumb to the call to purify their souls that way.

Here’s your substantive argument. Regardless of whether or not Muslims should be banned from immigration–a completely asinine idea when Latino immigrants are responsible for violence on a level several hundred factors of magnitude greater, and native born people even more–you cannot “know” this about anyone. To suggest that we restrict immigration because the children of people may become bad, is an idea that can’t be defended logically or by any principles of the constitution. If you want to make an argument to not allow certain people in to the country because of a statistical relationship to crime that’s one thing–and I suggest you start with Latinos first. But to argue that you can’t let them in because their children are somehow likely to become “bad” [to use the five year old language skills of the original poster] is offensively stupid.

Indeed, why didn’t you respond to that posters statement, unless you agree with it and are similarly burdened with ganglionic intellect.

And this reasonable distillate of that incredibly crazed and stupid statement:

I suggest that many devout Muslims are shown to be a similar threat to our liberty and security, and immigration should be monitored closely at the very least. Do you think this is stupid? If so, why?

Is nothing like what that idiot said. People like that deserve no respect and neither do those that defend them.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:37 pm 87. Kipling:

Request for “Atheists and fundies are two sides of the same coin, and equally nuts:” @39: Please elaborate on why you consider atheists and fundies – by which I assume you mean fundamental Christians – to be two sides of the same coin.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:45 pm 88. blotto:

hey indy guy: while I know you are deflecting from the topic, I just can’t let you get away with the comment about Christians. though coming from you an obviously bigoted and self loathing person who attempts to find moral equivalence in the murders of American soldiers as a defense, I did entertain your premise and it is all hogwash.

the kkk did distort some Christian beliefs but in no way were they Christian. so go back to Kos and tell them that MM made a mistake in sending you bad info.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:15 pm 89. Elle:

Obama tells us not to jump to conclusions. How long before he starts opening his press conferences with “Allihu Akbar”?!

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:41 pm 90. rp:

Sonia Sotomayor: (no authored books) {following quote from a CNN video tape, May 9,2009}; “Because white males are intellectually inferior to Hispanic women, white males should not be allowed by law to become members of the U.S. Supreme court.”
Sonia Sotomayor: Prima Facie guilty of “making statements against the 14th amendment of the U.S. Constitution”. In her role as Supreme Court Justice, regrettably, this constitutes sedition; a “clear and present danger to rights under the constitution.”

“Race Course; Against White Supremacy” by William Ayers”: “…and about bombing the Pentagon and various police headquarters, I have no regrets. In fact, I wish I had done more to attack the federal government; Demonstrate to them (the federal government) that if they continue making war on Vietnam, we’ll continue making war on this unlawful government.”
William Ayers’ acts of domestic terrorism and speech in support of it, constitute, under the United States Constitution’s Sedition Act of 1918, a Prima Facie case.

“Dreams From My Father” by Barack Obama:”Our goal should be to use the supreme court as the prime instrument of hastening the redistribution of wealth in this country. What the super rich have acquired unfairly and undeservedly must judicially and legislatively be taken away.” Since becoming President on Jan. 20, 2009, Barack Obama’s words and deeds have proven there to be reasonable cause to believe he has committed the act of sedition using words suggestive of no other meaning than the unbridled intention to use his Presidency to take away the rights of others which exist because they’re protected by the fifth and fourteenth amendments to the United States constitution.

… a person may be punished for sedition only when he or she makes statements that create a clear and present danger to rights that the government may lawfully protect …

In belief that the above is substantially true, I believe it to be the duty of federal marshals, agreeing that the above facts and allegations are true and correct, to forthwith obtain federal warrants for the arrest of the above three unindicted persons, either acting individually or as co-conspirators.
rp, Ltc, 5th U.S. M’tia

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:10 pm 91. kochevnik:

26. hrompik:
Kochevnik, your libels apart (yea christofascists first
>remotely controlled 9/11 planes then remotely
>controlled Osama and Zawahiri to brag about them on
>tape)…

Osama was working for the CIA on 9/11. So how does that square with your conspiracy theory about some Arabs with boxcutters? That’s a smoking gun linking the CIA and your repub party directly to the murder of over 3000 Americans! But You don’t really seem to care for Americans. You just spew lip service because your personal agenda momentarily parallels the war criminals. Their deaths are just another tool in your toolbox, useful when you want to get your own way.

The guy in those videos isn’t Osama. I met him in the flesh and your look-alikes don’t pass. The videos were made for useful idiots as yourself who always step into line and never ask questions from authority. Osama himself disavowed any connection with the WTC. Moreover why isn’t he on the FBI most wanted list for WTC?

25@Kipling:
>Okay, kochevnik, just signed himself up for a
>straight-jacket @16 so I want bother to comment
>on his absurdity.

Indeed your dismissiveness is exactly why the war is coming home to you. Surely more to come on that front. Blowback is a bi*ch, no? You should read up on karma.

Nov 8, 2009 - 12:21 am 92. kochevnik:

69@blotto:
>The KKK hated Christians as well as anyone. Just ask
>any Democrat.

Sure blotto that’s why the Vatican backed them, they has masonic support, why they wore Catholic Templar Knight robes and why they burned a cross as they committed wanton acts of christian terrorism. No correlation whatsoever there!

Nov 8, 2009 - 1:16 am 93. Mr. Independant:

Blotto,

First of all, I’m not deflecting from the topic of the article; I’m commenting on it. Second, I’m not disparaging Christians (or anyone of faith). Third, I’m not making any moral equivalence about anything.

Finally, the point I was trying make is that the problem with terrorists (regardless if their KKK or Al-Qaeda) is not their religion, it’s the terrorist. Christianity and Islam are both peaceful religions. And neither is responsible for terrorism.

Kochevnik,

Your posts are absurd. If you’re not going to add anything constructive to this discussion don’t add anything at all.

Nov 8, 2009 - 7:11 am 94. moho:

RP:In belief that the above is substantially true

Belief is right, you wingnut. Don’t shut yourself up in your bunker too tight, or Santa Claus may not be able to get in next month.

Nov 8, 2009 - 7:47 am 95. moho:

the kkk did distort some Christian beliefs but in no way were they Christian. so go back to Kos and tell them that MM made a mistake in sending you bad info.

LOL Of course they were Christian you idiot and they still are!

http://www.kkk.com/
Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!

Not only that, the “Christian” nation you live in has apparently done some awful stuff over time. Look it up in a history book; those are historically the values that your society has inherited and, in fact, is very proud of.

Nov 8, 2009 - 7:55 am 96. Thomas Fink:

kochevnik: You are the perfect example for the saying: When people stop believing in God, they do not stop believing. They start believing all kinds of nonsense.
And moho, you are the perfect victimizer. That is the pattern throughout everything I read from you. Something wrong in the USA? It was Bush. Poor Countries in the third world? It was colonization.
South Korea was some centuries ago as poor as Algeria. And now? The factories in Algeria are taken over by the desert sand and every lcd tv is produced in South Korea. And also not every mobbed person turns into a mass murderer.
You have learned to play the perfect flute for your lefty guilt ridden pc consciousness environment. Like your hero Obama you do not want people taking responsibility for their lives. This would make it necessary to think about taking responsibility for your own life whilst along the way it is so much easier to take the way of blaming.

Nov 8, 2009 - 8:50 am 97. BettyBlue:

Heh, heh, heh. . . Memo to Comrad Kochevnik: There’s a big, bad, Masonic Knight Templar hiding under your bed! Quick! Get your Stalin action figure, and wave it in his face! That will scare him away!

Nov 8, 2009 - 9:25 am 98. Thomas Fink:

After the Fort Hood shooting which involved a military psychiatrist, there is now fear of standard condemnation and reprisals among all military psychiatrists. This fears are not unfounded, since Malik Hasan Nidal had been shot by the police officer Kimberley Munley who is in America actually celebrated as a heroine.
So let us tell you in all clarity, not all military psychiatrists are dangerous. This case has nothing to do with military psychiatry, and if there are still military psychiatrist getting worked up about defensive measures, they deserve our understanding.

Nov 8, 2009 - 9:27 am 99. moho:

Something wrong in the USA? It was Bush. Poor Countries in the third world? It was colonization.

Your poor reading comprehension highlights exactly how you’ve come to such an impenetrable level of ignorance.

Nov 8, 2009 - 10:03 am 100. Thomas Fink:

“I’m always surprised that people who believe in historically recognized truth–that is, ideas that have no basis in logic or reason but have simply been grafted on to the person’s consciousness by their upbringing–can hold down a job.”
Sure, moho. And probably you are also surprised that someone with such a superior intelligence like you cannot hold down a job and blame it on racist, disability gender discrimination since you are a non practicing brain amputated sex changed muslim.

Nov 8, 2009 - 10:43 am 101. ReNae:

And the dancing continues! Religion is a convenient structure on which to hang all kinds of behaviors. It’s much more complex than any one theory. The observable facts are hard to dispute. Most terrorist activity in America in the years since 9/11 has been committed by Muslim fundamentalists. This fact should be the one we comment about. Political correctness only obscures and makes it nearly impossible to put in place the actions that will make us all safer. If my home is being invaded by the neighborhood bully I go after him and I don’t worry about making him mad, he’s already shown his willingness to enter and destroy. A discussion of his motive won’t keep him away.

Nov 8, 2009 - 11:19 am 102. moho:

Sure, moho. And probably you are also surprised that someone with such a superior intelligence like you cannot hold down a job and blame it on racist, disability gender discrimination since you are a non practicing brain amputated sex changed muslim.

Really, if that’s the best you can do, then you really do seem more at a disadvantage than the image you’ve painted of me.

Nov 8, 2009 - 6:14 pm 103. ReNae:

102 moho Really, if that’s the best you can do, then you really do seem more at a disadvantage than the image you’ve painted of me.

My point exactly hahahahahahaha

Nov 8, 2009 - 8:31 pm 104. JR Dogman:

moho,

What is your objective here? You have a point of view, as everyone here does, and I would imagine you are trying to advance that point of view, i.e., to explain it and justify it logically so that others who read your words will come to agree with you. Only the way you address people, insulting their intelligence and learning, saying things such as “I’m generally the only person who posts here who offers substantive arguments”, you’re not going to sell anybody on anything.

Now, on to the subject of some of what you have written. In particular: regarding your remark that “To suggest that we restrict immigration because the children of people may become bad, is an idea that can’t be defended logically or by any principles of the constitution”, almost *any* idea can be defended “logically” — logic is, after all, in the eye of the beholder/arguer. Of course, this is not to deny the obvious, i.e., that one may use logic to defend idiotic ideas. In such cases, we may call the “logic” of the arguers out for what it is: sophistry. That said, this is not such a case: that the nature of Islam may be in fundamental conflict with Western democratic values is an open question for many people, and Western nations may, with utmost logic, take such into account when crafting their immigration policies. To speak in terms of “children” of X group becoming “bad” strikes me as a straw-man tactic. We are not speaking of children becoming “bad”, we are not speaking of X group but of Muslims and what they believe, and how their presence affects our society. In short, the discussion taking place is not illogical, but very serious. Indeed, its emergence as a subject for discussion, on websites and in homes across the United States (and in Europe, for that matter), has been entirely organic. It is a sign of the times, a result of what people have been steadily observing and reading about since 9/11/01. In fact, the only informed (ostensibly) people not having this discussion forthrightly are in our cowardly political class and the left-wing media; and sooner or later events will change that. There will come a point when the MSM has either changed (i.e., started reporting the news) or lost most of its power, and an attack or attacks will happen, and the subject of radical Islam will become unavoidable: the question “Who are these people?” will not be relegated solely to (and answered by) conservative blogs, but will appear all over the TV and in every newspaper and magazine in the country. And the people making lame excuses about PTSD for a man who never saw combat will be by far in the minority, because people will want to know what is going on, not to hear PC mush that makes no sense.

At that point, the discussion will be had loudly, and passionately — and the side arguing against the right of the US to curtail immigration from Muslim countries will lose. Why will they lose? They will because of the passion of the majority, and because of the logic of their arguments. As for the legal side of the matter, that will not be a problem. As do all sovereign nations, the United States has every right to set its immigration policy as it sees fit, and, specifically in the case of the US, that policy does not need to be “defended” or justified by Constitutional principles. People living in other countries do not have a right to settle in the United States; like all nations, the US decides who can come in and who cannot.

I can see how a Muslim living in America (whether born here or a naturalized citizen) would find this discussion repellent and offensive. But this issue has been bubbling under the surface since 9/11 — perhaps even earlier — and the more Major Hasans there are, the louder that rumbling will grow. If and when there is another 9/11-scale (or worse) attack by fundamentalist Muslims, you will see an outright eruption: the issue of Muslim immigration will be front and center, and there will be myriad ways in which to craft legislation regarding immigration policy to bring about the desired results. No question, the ACLU and various other groups will clamor and fight — but they will lose. Despite divisions over immigration issues regarding Mexico, the white Christian majority and the growing Christian Latino minority have a great more deal in common than they do differences, and when they see buildings or cities leveled, or troops murdered by Muslim men shouting “Allahu Akbar!” and the like, their reaction will be the same. Ditto black Americans, Jewish Americans, Korean Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc. At that point, most Americans will come together, and they will find the restriction of immigration from Muslim countries to be very logical.

Of course, if I thought that fundamentalist Islam was on the wane, I would not make this argument. Actually, I would not make it, primarily because this discussion would not be taking place — we all would be here arguing about some other subject, medical marijuana or who knows. But radical Islam is not on the wane, so here we are.

Needless to say, moho, you and I disagree, but I don’t feel I need to call you an idiot, or suggest your education is deficient to the point where you might as well keep quiet. On the contrary, I’m glad you’re here interacting. Do I wish you agreed with me? Sure. In fact, I hope I am the one who will convince you of the rightness of all I say. In the meantime, however, I know we will disagree, and I am content to post and read your posts and those of others stopping by PJM. But I do hope you will make an effort to interact with greater civility as you make your points.

And who knows, maybe you will convince some posters here to see things more from your point of view.

Nov 8, 2009 - 9:24 pm 105. leigh:

The chilling influnece of Mohammad ads his pet god on the Major. Some may recall this from the days of the Muslim’s role model
Mohammad said to kill any Jew who falls within your power. Muhayyisa kills Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant. Muhayyisa said if Mohammad had told him to kill his elder brother (Hurayyisa) he would have done so. The elder brother converted to Islam as he thought that a religion that can bring you to do that is marvellous.

The Major haneded out Qurans the day before his massacre….

Nov 8, 2009 - 10:51 pm 106. El Gordo:

#97 Betty Blue – Funniest thing I read all day.

The irony is delightful. Scratch an “atheist” like kochevnik and find a 9/11 truther. He thinks he is the rational one, but he is still a believer: he´ll believe anything.

I am not a believer. But I know hating on Christians doesn´t save you from being a superstitious barbarian.

Nov 9, 2009 - 1:42 am 107. missnismo:

I’d move to another country and pretend I never had a life here if we weren’t hated all over the goddamn globe because of people who use comment boards to use their intellect and articulation to bully people into believing that what they write is gospel truth. There have been a few guys throughout history who used that same tactic and things didn’t turn out so well for them. If this had been a black guy, it would’ve been racially motivated due to resentment for the white man who enslaved his people and blah blah shit. If it was a Hispanic guy, he must have had a bad taco. If it was a white guy, he was a paranoid schizophrenic who likes sex with hamsters. You can’t just throw people into stereotypes like that. Regardless of whether or not you want to accept it, Major Nidal Malik Hasan was a Muslim AND an AMERICAN soldier who served this country. He made a really crappy choice. Was it motivated by terrorism? NO. Was he scared of being deployed to a country whose people would blow a guy like him away first for being a traitor to them? You’re damn right he was. Put yourself in his shoes. Imagine you’re fighting for the Middle East against the US and you’re gonna march your ass into their territory and think for one second American soldiers wouldn’t pick you off first? What’s so hard to believe about that? Americans are certainly quick to make rants about terrorism. Why not treason?

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:56 am 108. Douglas:

It’s much better to ignore nitwits such as moho and kochevnik. They are what are known as trolls. Any sane person can recognize their ignorance. They are both stuck in their ideology. It’s best to simply let them troll alone and fade away.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:24 am 109. Mr. Independant:

missnismo,

I your last post is completely absurd. Nidal Malik Hasan wasn’t compelled to murder anyone. He decided to. If he didn’t want to deploy to Iraq all he had to do was resign.

JR Dogman,
The first topic of your last post was excellent. I find it very refreshing to read someone other than me encouraging civility on this website. Not only that, you pointed out how detrimental to learning being uncivil is. Thank you for that.

The second topic of you post is way off the mark though. You seem to think (and correct me if I’m wrong) that the cause of terrorism is Islam. It’s not. Many posters on this site frequently cite passages from the Koran that imply violence against non-Muslims is ordained by God. From that, many commentators across the right take that as conclusive proof that Islam causes terrorism. It doesn’t. Just like Christianity doesn’t cause terrorism either. Radical Christian organizations like the IRA and the KKK were not brought in being by the Bible; likewise Al-Qaeda and Hamas were not created by the Koran. The problem with terrorists is NOT their religion, it’s the terrorists.

Finally your point about the media is half right (no pun intended). Yes the left-wing media is not reporting the news but neither is the right-wing media. Fox ‘News’ and talk radio do not report anything; they push an agenda. To suggest otherwise would be akin to suggesting that MSNBC and the print media is actually fair and balanced.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:57 am 110. moklspa:

107. missnismo: WOW! Just wow!

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:00 am 111. Sharon:

Sooo…if any Muslim ever shoots anyone ever again, it’s automatically going to be a terrorist assault.

And again exactly HOW was this person “proven” to be an extremist? Do we have e-mails about his plot to commit Jihad on his office? Does he have a record of belonging to a terrorist training camp run by the Taliban? Any financial or personal ties to Al Queda. Until then, this is just sensationalized media. That’s like me saying any crazed white man running into his office and shooting up the joint is a terrorist. He might just be one crazy idiot.

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:23 am 112. Mr. Independant:

Sharon,

Your main point is correct. But more and more evidence is turing up that indicates he is a terrorist with connections to terrorist organizations.

Nov 9, 2009 - 12:13 pm 113. missnismo:

109. Mr. Independant, yes he just needed to march into the Lt. Colonel’s office and say, “I fear for my life and do not wish to be deployed!” How lucky you are not to have familiarized yourself with the American military. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I never meant to imply that he was forced to take action of this magnitude. I don’t just run around making excuses for murderers Mr. Independant, because let’s face it, on top of being an American Muslim soldier, he is that as well. A murderer. When I said he made a poor choice, that was a gross understatement. But, I refuse to get sucked into “he was a terrorist” and I call bullshit on the “evidence” card being pulled. Puuullleeeaaaassse. Major Hasan was a psychology professional and military personnel. I have reservations about the evidence. Maybe you know something I don’t. Or maybe you just feel more comfortable rationalizing this as terrorism because there’s no way a Muslim American can possibly have any real agenda here other than to kill Whitey. LOL!!! They love to feed us shit because we love to eat it. Anybody hungry?

Nov 9, 2009 - 1:29 pm 114. tknightfield:

How can you tell a good follower of Islam from a bad one? Until they go off and commit mass-murder in the name of the God they imagine approves of their actions……You can’t!

Nov 9, 2009 - 1:46 pm 115. JR Dogman:

Mr. Independant:

Thanks. I agree — I am always amazed by posters who rush to insult those they disagree with. They’re not doing anything to advance their arguments, they’re merely alienating people with their hostility.

In any event, I do think the impetus (”cause” seems the wrong word in this case) for the acts of Maj. Hasan was Islam, just as it was for the 9/11 plotters. To me it is a “who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?” moment (an extended moment, that is): it’s Islam, and we shouldn’t shy from that. Does this mean that Islam is irredeemably hostile to non-Muslims and thus to democratic values? I don’t know. I hope not, and, at least for now, I must go forward on that hope.

As for conservative media and talk radio having an agenda, you are right: they do. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t giving us a more complete, and thus more accurate, picture of Maj. Hasan’s motives, and how he fits into the larger questions about the nature of Islam that have, as I have said, arisen in the most organic of ways. Further, that this discussion is taking place is unequivocally a good thing.

Of course, as a participant in the discussion, you may argue that Islam had little or no role in Maj. Hasan’s acts. And perhaps you will argue so eloquently that you will convince people of the rightness of this position. But I suspect this will not be the case, for the reason I have said: as uncomfortable as it might make some people feel, for most of us who have looked into the matter, the question is not whether or not Islam is hostile to non-Muslims, but whether this is a condition that may change in the future.

That said, as I see it, it’s an opportunity. Most of us, I think, want to believe that we are looking at Islam as it is in the present, not as it will always be. But to embrace that opportunity for Islam, we speak the truth as we see it, and not pretending away what is plain because the facts make us uncomfortable, or those who seek to redefine Islam in a more modern, tolerant fashion will fail in their efforts.

Again, thanks for the positive response.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:34 pm 116. JR Dogman:

Whoops — some corrections:

But to embrace that opportunity, we must speak the truth as we see it, and not pretend away what is plain because it makes us uncomfortable. If we do that, those Muslims who seek to redefine Islam in a more modern, tolerant fashion will fail in their efforts.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:37 pm 117. Mr. Independant:

missnismo,

On post #113 you stated “Mr. Independant, yes he just needed to march into the Lt. Colonel’s office and say, ‘I fear for my life and do not wish to be deployed!’ How lucky you are not to have familiarized yourself with the American military”. Yes that is exactly what he could have done. Hasan had over 16 years of service in the Army. Unless there were some special circumstances that applied to him, he was not under any service obligation. He literally could walk in his commanding officers officer and resign. I know this because I’ve been in the military for the past 12 years.

On your point that you don’t want to refer to him as a terrorist, then what exactly should be referred to as. There have been no reports that tried to rob anyone. There have been no reports that he tried to rape anyone. There have been no reports that he was targeting anyone specifically. Judging by what has been publically released by the military, there is absolutely no suggestion that Hasan is just some typical criminal who committed an untypical crime.

Your comment that we don’t know all the facts is true. Hasan may (and I don’t believe this so ETAB & Marina don’t jump all over me) be mentally ill. It’s possible that he didn’t know what he was doing (again PJ readers I know the suggestion is stupid) but all the evidence suggests otherwise. There were other targets Hasan could have selected. Other locations where he could have murdered a lot more people. Other locations further away from an armed response. He didn’t. Based on the totality of what has been made public I think I’m perfectly justified to call him a terrorist.

BTW, if Hasan isn’t a terrorist, then who is?

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:29 pm 118. Mr. Independant:

JR Dogman,

Well said. I disagree with your position but I do hope that if I’m wrong the problems you perceive with Islam will change. By the same token I also hope that one day you will see that Islam is not the problem.

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:34 pm 119. missnismo:

Mr. Independant, well stated. Indeed he did commit an act of terror. Perhaps I came across as some delusional child who wants to see the good in everyone. But clearly there is no other word to support what Major Hasan has done, which can only be described as terrorism. I did not join the military as my father had hoped. But I am the proud daughter of a Ret. Lt. Col. in the USAF who had served his country for the last 37 years . A man who came out of retirement 8 years ago after only being in retirement a few months, to once again serve his country by instructing soldiers in anti-terrorism tactics. Needless to say, my dad is having a field-day with my views. I do apologize if I seem emotionally driven but I am motivated by truth and not by speculation. And Islam isn’t the problem.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:57 pm 120. Grumpy:

I fail to see the need to add ‘extremist’ to the end of muslim when discussing terrorist attacks, honor killings, etc. Having taken the time to actually read the koran, it is abundantly clear that any practicing muslim who can actually read and has taken the time to do so will be considered ‘extremist’ once he acts upon the teachings found inside. Those who live peacefully are either unable or unwilling to read the book or simply choose not to follow it. We should replace the terms ‘extremist’ and ‘peaceful’ with ‘practicing’ and ‘non-practicing’. There is simply no place in the modern world for this religion. Unfortunately, the great majority of muslims will defend it to the death due to their lack of education or strict adherence to tradition. Ultimately, muslims will ensure that no outcome short of a full-scale war between muslims and non-muslims will be possible.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:06 pm 121. JR Dogman:

Mr. Independent,

I hope you are right. But the truth is, when you say that Islam is not the problem, I must ask you, what is the problem? The list of Muslim attacks in the West, with Muslims declaring in no uncertain terms that they are acting per the directives of their faith, is so long at this point, and even longer is the list of failed plots for attacks, that I don’t see how you can say that Islam isn’t tied up in all of this.

In a nutshell, if radical Muslim clerics are quoting the Koran to justify violence, and their radical Muslim followers are carrying out acts of violence while shouting “Allahu Akbar!” and the like, on what basis do you say this is not about Islam? It is for them. Very clearly, Maj. Hasan felt that it his duty as a Muslim was at odds with his responsibilities as a soldier. I don’t want to sound sarcastic — I want to keep the discussion rational, and focused on the facts — but to me it seems self-evident that this man, Maj. Hasan, killed all those people (and would have killed more) in the name of Islam. Furthermore, his old Imam, now in Yemen, believes this was the case, and that Maj. Hasan is a hero for what he did. And this is only the worst of events that have been taking place for years: Muslims committing and plotting attacks in the name of Islam. *They* say this is about Islam. Of course, they don’t view it as a problem, they see it as the proper course, but the bottom line is, if you asked them, “Are you doing this for Islam?” they would say yes.

So if these people say it is about Islam, if they quote from the Koran, and if the acts are ongoing all over the world — that is, if Muslims are waging violent jihad in the name of Islam, and polls show Muslim populations approving of their violent actions as justified per Islam, how is these men’s acts not about Islam?

I have said before, I can easily understand how a Muslim, someone just living his life, would find it abhorrent to hear it suggested that his relgion inspires acts of terrorism around the globe. It is such an ugly thing to have to hear about one’s faith. But ugly or not, if what I have written above accurately describes what is happening, ugly or not, the facts simply *are*.

Aren’t they?

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:10 pm 122. JR Dogman:

Re 108. Douglas:

“It’s much better to ignore nitwits such as moho and kochevnik. They are what are known as trolls. Any sane person can recognize their ignorance. They are both stuck in their ideology. It’s best to simply let them troll alone and fade away.”

Maybe you are right. But the fact is, although I find moho’s manner unpleasant, he doesn’t come off as dumb. And if he is a Muslim, why not treat his presence here as an opportunity? In general, my experience has been that people will respond to civility in kind, even when the discussion goes somewhere they find unpleasant.

With this in mind, I say let’s try civility and see what happens. Who knows — maybe moho has it in him to de-trollify himself.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:30 pm 123. Anonymous:

Sharon – (111)

Sooo…if any Muslim ever shoots anyone ever again, it’s automatically going to be a terrorist assault.”

Actually, according to Islamic law, if the person a Muslim shoots is a non-Muslim, then it’s not a terrorist incident or even a murder, it’s a non-event. If, on the other hand, a Muslim shoots another Muslim it’s a murder unless it was over a matter of faith and the shooter is on solid ground whereas the Muslim who was shot is apostate or on questionable Islamic theological ground. The individual Muslim who is shot due to an Islamic dispute will be tried to see whether or not there was a real theological issue, and only if it is found that the Muslim who shot him is lying, will the shooting be classified as an assault with intent or a murder (as the case may be at that point). Naturally, if the shooter is alive and the target is dead, it’s pretty hard to prove that the shooter wasn’t defending the faith, hence, a great many times the shooter gets off.

All the above is based on trial statistics from Saudi Arabia, the statistics in Pakistan being somewhat more likely to classify the shooter as someone guilty of assault with intent and sentence them to several years in jail. Pakistan, however, is considered an apostate Islamic state by the majority of Muslims these days since it doesn’t follow strict Islamic law and therefore cannot be considered as definitional when defining Islamic attitudes to shootings and such.

So, no, a Muslim shooting someone isn’t always a terrorist attack or even an attack of any kind. The Ft Hood shooter, for example, would not be found guilty of anything in a Pak or Saudi court since the worst thing he could possibly be charged with is following the tenants of the faith at an inappropriate time.

have a nice day

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:19 am 124. Mr. Independant:

JR DOGMAN,

The problem is the terrorists. If we were having this conversation in the 1920’s, we would be discussing radical Christianity and the terrorist organization the KKK. Now do you think there is something inherently evil with Christianity? Of course not. But that doesn’t change the fact that terrorist organizations frequently use religion to justify their acts of violence. The KKK doesn’t represent Christianity and by the same token Al-Qaeda doesn’t represent Islam. Even if klansmen and jihadists say that it does, it doesn’t.

Consider this; if 1.5 BILLION people were being instructed to murderer non-believers don’t you think there would be a lot more terrorism in the world than there is now? Here’s another interesting fact, the majority of all acts of terrorism that have occurred over the past 40 years were committed in Latin America by organizations that had no religious agendas. I’m talking about the FARC (the so called Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia). Over the past 40 years the FARC has been responsible for the murderess of over 300,000 people. These people weren’t killed for religious beliefs; they weren’t even really killed for political beliefs.

The problem is the terrorists. It doesn’t matter if there KKK, IRA, FARC, Al-Qaeda, or any other group. When individuals and organizations decide to use violence to achieve political goals, that’s the problem.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:00 pm 125. HawkWatcher:

A couple things for Mr. Independent: Why haven’t all Islamic killers and would-be jihadis been disavowed and banned from Islam? Any decent religion would have officially parted ways with such misunderstanders long ago. In the case of Islamic texts and beliefs, there’s no misinterpretation, hence no purging.

The problem lies in following their books, get it?

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:07 pm 126. Mr. Independant:

HawkWatcher,

Your first question is very interesting. I would answer it by pointing out that almost 2/3 of all Muslims live in dictatorial countries. Those countries routinely use the clergy in their country to deflect attention from their failings. If countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan were to stop encouraging terrorism how long would it be before those regimes fail?

On your second question if any ‘decent religion would have officially parted ways with such misunderstanders long ago’; what took US clergy so long to disavow the Christian terrorist organization the KKK? Or a little more recently, what took the Irish so long to disavow the IRA.

On your final point about ‘their books’, have you ever read the Bible? Check out 1st Samuel 15:2-3.

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:04 am 127. A_Nonny_Mouse:

109. Mr. Independant at Nov 9, 2009 – 10:57 am

“You seem to think … that the cause of terrorism is Islam. It’s not. Many posters on this site frequently cite passages from the Koran that imply violence against non-Muslims is ordained by God. From that, many commentators across the right take that as conclusive proof that Islam causes terrorism.”

====================================
Mohammed said “… I am made victorious by terror”.
(Interesting site: http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Terrorism.Islam )

A slight tweak to your argument: while Islam does not CAUSE terrorism, it certainly does EMPLOY terrorism to further its goals. It has done so for about 1400 years. (Qur’an:3:150 “… We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels …”)

Nov 11, 2009 - 5:59 pm 128. A_Nonny_Mouse:

There’s also an interesting article at

http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2009/11/on-interpretation-camels-and-straws.html

It’s a good article with some really good comments as well. I like MaxedOutMama’s idea that Islam may provide a framework that allows a person with a damaged psyche, a background of failure, to keep functioning. “It’s remarkable how many of these people have seemed to use Islam as their individual security blanket to cover their own failings and fears, especially sexual. That weakness is one which can be easily exploited in Islam. This guy’s life was falling apart – he was transferred to Fort Hood, and after his bad OER his career in the military was ended. I think he just had enough and decided to commit a very flamboyant suicide.” And, of course, if you pretend to yourself you’re doing it “to advance Islam” you can believe your “martyrdom” will gain you entrance to that bordello-in-the-sky which is the Islamic paradise.

Nov 11, 2009 - 6:36 pm 129. Mr. Independant:

A_Nonny_Mouse,

Anyone can claim that violence is justified by their faith. Many ‘Christian’ leaders used the Bible as justification to employ violence to further their goals. Ask yourself what happened to all of the Native American people who were murdered by the English, French, Portuguese, and the Spanish? And I’m not refereeing to the introduction of diseases but war. Much more recently the radical Christian organization the KKK employed terrorism to further its goals. Again they claimed the Bible and their faith was justification for their violence. Try reading Deuteronomy 20:10-17, 1Samuel 15:2-3, 2Kings 10:6-7, and Timothy 1:20. And the history of ‘Christian Leaders’ over the past 1600 years is riddled with violence.

Now I noticed a recurring theme that I noticed from your last post and the posts of others are references to the Koran that are misspelled. I point this out because when I go to the sites that are provided by you and others the misspellings are identical. Are you just cutting and pasting passages from someone’s website or are you actually reading the Koran? It’s appears that you are doing the former. Perhaps you should try actually reading the Bible and the Koran before you write an opinion about either religion.

Nov 12, 2009 - 6:01 am

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