Decency Dying a Painful Death in British Culture
While looking down their noses at the U.S., "role models" in the UK are becoming more obscene than ever.
Those outside the United Kingdom will be blissfully unaware of a news story that knocked everything else off the front pages of British newspapers these past few weeks: two of the BBC’s biggest stars lost their jobs after engaging in obscene telephone calls to the actor Andrew Sachs, known to the world as “Manuel” in the legendary comedy series Fawlty Towers.
As the presidential election of 2008 writes itself into the history books, Americans may assert, “We have Howard Stern, so who cares about a pair of dirty-minded performers fired over in gentle Blighty?”
The reason why this story is significant in the wake of the McCain-Obama campaign is that decency and moral structure are the cement of civilized society, and these issues were pilloried this autumn by the anti-Palin media. Nowhere was Sarah Palin more parodied and vilified than in the overseas press. In Britain, where church attendance is at an all-time low, where teen pregnancies and knife crime are breaking all records and alcoholism in children is shocking even the most hardened emergency room physicians, a public discourse on restoring “old-fashioned values” is regarded as a precursor to fascism or evangelical hysteria.
But let us get back to Auntie Beeb: in late October Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross, two popular British television and radio personalities, devised a skit for BBC Radio 2 in which they would record a series of messages on the answering machine of the aforementioned actor Andrew Sachs, who had failed to appear on their show. (Americans will remember Brand as the lewd and disrespectful host of the MTV Awards in September, who memorably referred to President Bush as a “cowboy retard.”)
In the process of taunting Sachs by ansafone, the two men engaged with repulsive detail in describing Brand’s sexual encounter with the granddaughter of 78-year-old Sachs. The program was pre-recorded and a wise editor clipped out an indescribably execrable section about Brand and Ross masturbating the actor, but the portions of the program that did transmit on the nation’s airwaves constituted veritable garbage.
Of course, Sachs complained to the corporation but very few listeners did the same until the Daily Mail newspaper expressed its outrage and various BBC heavyweights, including the news anchorman Sir John Tusa, registered their indignation. Soon thousands of decent British folk contacted the BBC in fury. The switchboard was permanently engaged for three days. By the first weekend in November 37,000 listeners had registered their anger. The controller of Radio 2 resigned and as this article goes to press there is talk of a further high-level departure at the British Broadcasting Corporation. All of Russell Brand’s programs have been canceled, although somehow a disgusting show about people having sex with their pets did get the go-ahead for transmission in prime time in the week of the crisis. I watched this program in jaw-dropping disbelief. It must be remembered that the BBC is funded by a compulsory tax on every household. Menacing vans patrol little Britain looking for folks who have not paid their license fee. If ever there was a case for dismantling an act of big government, this is it.
Jonathan Ross was also taken off the air. To measure the importance of this national crisis, there was further popular uproar when it was revealed that he is paid £6 million ($11 million) a year. His weekly talk show is on a par with Conan O’Brien or Stephen Colbert in popularity, but there the similarity ends. The difference between American hosts and Ross is that they maintain good taste and do not dwell on sex; Ross infamously taunted Conservative leader David Cameron about masturbating to images of Lady Thatcher on one segment. In his new book, Why Do I Say These Things?, Ross talks of sex with a vacuum cleaner and about sexually arousing disabled men.
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Carol Gould is the Philadelphia-born author of Don’t Tread on Me: Anti-Americanism Abroad, Spitfire Girls, and A Room at Camp Pickett, a play about her mother’s experiences as a WAC in World War II; she has just completed films about black GIs and GI babies. Carol has been a panelist on BBC's Any Questions?, hosted by Jonathan Dimbleby, and is a commentator on Sky News, Press TV, the BBC World Service, and Five Live.
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1. Sarah Palin On Best Political Blogs » Blog Archive » Decency Dying a Painful Death in British Culture:[...] Decency Dying a Painful Death in British Culture While looking down their noses at the U.S., “role models” in the UK are becoming more obscene than ever. [...]
Nov 12, 2008 - 7:24 am 2. Jonesy55:It makes me wonder why Carol Gould continues to live on this blighted isle when she clearly sees it as a sordid den of filth and depravity.
In amongst the lies, half-truths and exaggerations of this article there comes across a clear contempt for the people and society here which is fine in itself if that’s what she feels but I wonder why then she feels the need to criticise Brits for writing articles and showing TV programmes about the USA which are just a mirror image of her misleading article one.
To add a touch of realism, I would say that by far the majority of people here lead perfectly non-sordid lives. Carol Gould doesn’t want to say that of course because it wouldn’t make a very good story and it wouldn’t be accepted by the readership here who want to believe that.
Nov 12, 2008 - 7:35 am 3. Lynn:It’s getting harder and harder for parents to guide their children through the field piled high with garbage. It never starts out looking and smelling like garbage but seems fresh and funny at first until it’s around for awhile. I think it’s time we stopped for a moment and ask: Where are we going? and for the kids: Are we almost there?
Nov 12, 2008 - 7:50 am 4. Martge:What I found offensive about the British press was the fact that Americans were labeled racist because they did not fall down and kiss obama butt and wanted to vote for McCain. (We still have freedom of choice). And then we go back and look and all we can see in the House of Commons, the HOuse of Lords AND THE PRIME MINISTER’S OFFICES nothing but the color WHITE……How’s that for being racist?
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:16 am 5. ex-democrat:jonesy55 – surely you jest? “the majority” lead “Non-sordid” lives ergo there’s not really a problem??
you are the proverbial frog in the pot.
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:22 am 6. Sarge:AND we essentially voted to follow our wonderful brothers and sisters in Europe down this path ! God bless us !!!
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:23 am 7. » Pajamas Media » Decency Dying a Painful Death in British Culture:[...] As the presidential election of 2008 writes itself into the history books, Americans may assert, “We have Howard Stern, so who cares about a pair of dirty-minded performers fired over in gentle Blighty?” … More [...]
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:24 am 8. kochevnik:But murdering 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens is considered fine by the repubs. Small wonder their party is going down in flames.
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:27 am 9. ex-democrat:Carol – i’ll have to go and watch it again, but I think your interpretation of Fry’s reaction to that varsity event (”Fry, a British curmudgeon of the first order, was moved to tears by the varsity event and could not speak after the playing of the anthem and a flyover by Navy jets.”) misses something.
Tom me, Fry’s reaction reflected a profound internal conflict between his natural inclination to enjoy and savor the specatacle with his need to remain aloof and cynical about it – truly the quintessential English disease of our time.
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:29 am 10. susan:I could have bet and I would have won
Jonesy is here pretending to show pride in his country after all the venom his sharia island has shown towards USA and its values/principles.
The Sachs fiasco is nothing compared to all the other issues.
Teen pregnancy is rampant (and note: not among immigrants, but among LOCAL people) because the nanny state provides house and $$$ to teenage mothers.
How many of them think to get pregnant instead of studying and working? the answer is LOTS.
But damn you if you suggest that spitting on the church and believers is wrong.
They know better, they were a big bad empire.
One piece of advice. Ignore the idiots and ban them from getting USA citizenship, they might reproduce the sick path to the decline also elsewhere, following the behaviour of their muslim masters.
And whenever a brit talks about racism, remind him of the racism they have always had for southern europeans and eastern europeans.
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:40 am 11. mishu:If murdering 1 million Iraqis is fine by “repubs”, why did said “repubs” push to remove Saddam Hussein from power?
Nov 12, 2008 - 8:52 am 12. David H:I have been criticising Jonesy55 on another thread, but he is in fact correct, the majority of Brits lead perfectly clean and respectful lives and are rather upset and ashamed the way the standards have worsened in their country, Carol Gould is correct too, but that people complained about this and it actually had an effect may be a sign that things are at last changing. Though the UK politicians are still up to the same games, for example how many times has Mandelson resigned due to questionable behaviour, he was made a EU Commissioner as a reward and now he is back in the UK government, that is a very good example of why Gordan Brown is talking the talk but not walking the walk…
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:01 am 13. Lynn:Yes kochovik, and you will defend to your dying day Saddam’s right to chemically annihilate the people, use them as human shields, jail, torture, and terrorize, the Iraqi’s into submission or kill them and bury them in mass graves while you proudly report that he received 100% of the vote. You would rather pretend it doesn’t happen. Are you that driver I saw the other day smoking a cigarette, talking on the cell phone, driving with one hand on the wheel in that car with the bumper sticker accusing U.S. troops of killing innocent civilians?
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:02 am 14. Andrew Ian Dodge:Ms Gould we had a wee bit of natter about this on “the Whip” on PJTV soon after it happened. Wossy and Brand have been vile little oiks for quite a while. I find you piece an interesting examination of the matter.
As far as I can tell what tipped it over the edge to a “row” was when the Prime Minister, who must be a Fawlty Towers fan, took exception to the whole sorry episode. It was only then that the BBC react at all quickly.
Notice the establishment is now trying to get Jeremy Clarkson fired? Don’t they realise that his cumudgeonly attitude is what we like about him? Clarkson is an equal opportunity cynic and I think that is why many in UK establishment hate him so. Last week’s Top Gear saw him full of praise about three American cars…which might have shocked a few of the viewers.
On the Fry point I didn’t find anything wrong with his show about America. I do hope they show that on BBC America to demonstrate to Americans that all TV personalities in the UK don’t loath the US.
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:12 am 15. Dodgeblogium » Brand and Ross inappropriate?:[...] Carol Gould examines this over at PJM. [...]
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:14 am 16. rocketeer:kochevnik – you’re are just a pathetic liar, that’s about all that can be said of you. Where do you come up with this 1 million number? Not even the most rabid left-wing nut-job makes these sort of absurd accusations. We have given freedom to over 50 million Iraqis, we have removed what everyone agrees was a brutal dictator from power, and we have done so at a tremendous cost to our country, both in terms of dollars and more importantly, the lives of our best and bravest. We have done this despite the cowardice of the world community and flakes like you that are content to stand by while true evil is perpetrated. You can sit and make snippy little comments if you like, but you are nothing more then a small minded dimwit.
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:20 am 17. rocketeer:When the Europeans took religion out of their lives, they invited in anarchy. When there are no common standards to live by, society degrades into this type of behavior. Don’t worry, the US is catching up.
If we all don’t get a handle on our societies, we’re all going to be in a bunch of trouble soon.
God speed.
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:26 am 18. BMoon:For this ex-pat American, watching Britain self-destruct is like watching a favorite old, funny, loving aunt trying to cut her own throat repeatedly with a rusty, dull kitchen knife. It is horrifying, disturbing, and unfathomable.
There are a few things that lead to suicide. One is utter self-loathing. Rejection of Judeo-Christianity, the Enlightenment, history, their own success and prosperity – the corrosive acid must eventually reach to rejecting your own humanity and decency.
Britain is fast becoming a sign and a wonder, a specter for all to behold with dire warning for all mankind about the folly of following the path to nihilsim and narcissism.
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:40 am 19. njcommuter:Just as a hypothetical, if you wanted some leadership figures in England to stand up for decency and civility, not as a caricature but as a real way to live, to whom would you turn?
Nov 12, 2008 - 10:02 am 20. Juke:Suicide of the west…
Nov 12, 2008 - 10:17 am 21. Luke:At least the filth Hollywood puts out isn’t state sponsored. There is nothing more lovely than the thought of elite, tolerance pushing, Obama worshiping, evangelical hating, european leftists looking down their noses at America culture, and propegating a vulgar form of intolerance in the same breath.
Nov 12, 2008 - 10:27 am 22. kelly k:“… the Prime Minister, who must be a Fawlty Towers fan, took exception to the whole sorry episode.” I love the idea of the PM rushing in to defend Manuel.
When I read about the BBC on British blogs, people seem more upset about having to pay for this crud. Brand and Ross are braying jackasses–pristine examples of perpetual adolescence–but people can choose not to watch them. But they don’t have the option to not pay their license fee. The BBC can decide to air whatever it chooses AND make everyone pay for it. I’d be angry, too.
Nov 12, 2008 - 10:43 am 23. JoshC:…and the Puritan spirit lives on in America.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:27 am 24. jonesy55:“When the Europeans took religion out of their lives, they invited in anarchy.”
Huh? So godless countries like Japan, Denmark, Sweden, Singapore etc are anarchical while very religious places like Nigeria, Brazil, Iran or Poland are models of social harmony and democracy?
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:40 am 25. jonesy55:“I could have bet and I would have won
Jonesy is here pretending to show pride in his country after all the venom his sharia island has shown towards USA and its values/principles.”
Like a stalker she appears, I have shown no venom towards anybody Susan, that is your forte.
“The Sachs fiasco is nothing compared to all the other issues.
Teen pregnancy is rampant (and note: not among immigrants, but among LOCAL people) because the nanny state provides house and $$$ to teenage mothers.
How many of them think to get pregnant instead of studying and working? the answer is LOTS.”
About 38,000 last year, too many it’s true but there are countries in the developed world with a much worse record. Most of them probably don’t think of anything before getting pregnant. A reasoned cost-benefit analysis certainly wouldn’t lead anybody to think that getting knocked up was a path to riches.
“But damn you if you suggest that spitting on the church and believers is wrong.
They know better, they were a big bad empire.”
??
“One piece of advice. Ignore the idiots and ban them from getting USA citizenship, they might reproduce the sick path to the decline also elsewhere, following the behaviour of their muslim masters.”
You left this planet a long time ago didn’t you Susan, how can 2% of the population which is actually underrepresented in most decision making bodies be ‘our masters’. Your paranoid fantasies show nothing but the warped state of your mind.
“And whenever a brit talks about racism, remind him of the racism they have always had for southern europeans and eastern europeans.”
Whatever floats your boat Susan but it’s worth remebering that we allowed Eastern Europeans to live and work in the UK without restriction as soon as they joined the EU while the rest of western Europe tried to keep them out for as long as possible.
As for racism towards Southern Europeans, it’s not generally something i’ve heard from Italian and Spanish friends, maybe if people have mistreated you it’s just because they don’t like you personally.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:53 am 26. jonesy55:“When I read about the BBC on British blogs, people seem more upset about having to pay for this crud. Brand and Ross are braying jackasses–pristine examples of perpetual adolescence–but people can choose not to watch them. But they don’t have the option to not pay their license fee. The BBC can decide to air whatever it chooses AND make everyone pay for it. I’d be angry, too.”
Actually BBC radio (which is where this incident occured) is free, you only have to pay if you have a TV.
I think it’s pretty good value really, £2 ($3) per week for 4 national TV stations, 2 kids channels, 10 national radio stations, a network of local radio and a great internet portal all without annoying advertisements. If people don’t want to pay they don’t have to own a TV and they can vote for a party that wants to scrap this method of funding. The problem is that’s not a popular policy.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:58 am 27. jonesy55:“jonesy55 – surely you jest? “the majority” lead “Non-sordid” lives ergo there’s not really a problem??
you are the proverbial frog in the pot.”
Well, maybe you know of a country where everybody lives like a saint but i’ve yet to find it.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:10 pm 28. Войска ПВО:Que?
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:16 pm 29. Whatisgoingonforums:Is there a clash between freedom and decency? There are social norms that coincide with freedom. It’s one thing to be free, it’s another thing to be free and to enjoy it during whatever circumstance. I think they are two different factors that are factor into one another for either one to be successful.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:21 pm 30. TomJW:16. rocketeer:
Nov 12, 2008 – 9:20 am
Beautiful.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:22 pm 31. Eric:Don’t worry. When the Muslims take over they will enforce a strict morality. Just give it some time and the filth spewing forth from GB will be over.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:46 pm 32. jonesy55:” And then we go back and look and all we can see in the House of Commons, the HOuse of Lords AND THE PRIME MINISTER’S OFFICES nothing but the color WHITE……How’s that for being racist?”
Well, that’s not quite true is it although it is true that ethnic minorities are under-represented. If we elected more minority MPs though, many here would complain that we were ‘allowing muslims to take over’ or some other nonsense, I guess we can’t win!
It’s ironic though that Obama’s election will leave the US senate 100% white in a country with 12% African-Americans We all have work to do on this front, let’s not be smug.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:47 pm 33. Eric:“24. jonesy55:”
Sweden? Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaa
The country is rapidly falling apart. They are ahead of even Britain in the surrender to their Muslim minority. Their current PM even rejects the notion of Swedishness and says that teh Swedes are just another ethnic group occupying an otherwise ordinary piece of real estate. They take political correctness and multiculturalism to new absurd heights.
Check out the Gates of Vienna blog for regular updates on the Islamic Republic of Sweden.
Europe is done because of guilt driven Liberalism. One day we may be fighting against a nuclear armed Islamic Europe.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:50 pm 34. Eric:“jonesy55:”
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:53 pm 35. epb:It is racist to presuppose that one can only be represented by a person of one’s own color. If Britain, and the rest of Europe hope to survive as unique, Western countries and cultures it is past time for them to close the door to immigrants. Their minorities are even more hateful toward the white majority than here in the US.
If you really believe your rhetoric, kochevnik, you live in the land of make believe.
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:56 pm 36. jonesy55:Eric, forgive me but a blog named “Gates of Vienna” isn’t the first place i’d think of looking for balanced coverage of this issue.
Can you deny that Sweden has a very low murder rate? Have you ever been there?
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:03 pm 37. jonesy55:“It is racist to presuppose that one can only be represented by a person of one’s own color.”
Very true, but that doesn’t explain why 0% of Senators are African-American.
“If Britain, and the rest of Europe hope to survive as unique, Western countries and cultures it is past time for them to close the door to immigrants. Their minorities are even more hateful toward the white majority than here in the US.”
I don’t think that people realise that even in a relatively hig immigration country in Western Europe like the UK, the population is still 90% white. Almost all of the non-white people I mix with are not in the least bit hateful towards me or white people in general, the people you are talking about are probably less than 1% of the general population, in many European countries less than that. Sure they are annoying but I don’t think that they will be the downfall of our civilisation.
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:10 pm 38. James Westlake:Eric,
“Their minorities are even more hateful toward the white majority than here in the US.”
How many times have you been to Britain?
BTW I live in a building of six apartment. The two upstairs are occupied by a Muslim lady of African decent and a Caribbean women. My next door neighbour is a Mexican. The downstairs apartments are occupied by a White Guy (Gay) and a Mediterranean bloke. We all get on just fine – this is the norm in London.
good day to you brother
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:19 pm 39. Miklos Hollender:This is only the tip of the iceberg.
In 2006 I moved from Hungary to England because I had a deep respect for the Old English culture, that of ladies and gentlemen.
And what I found in Birmingham is mostly a disappointing population of tracksuit-wearing, obese, binge-drinking o’royt’moyt’s.
It’s quite sad that the country I respected much from afar became so… vulgar.
I think next year is the time to move out. But I want to stay in Europe. Any recommendations? Switzerland? Austria? I hear that they have managed to stay somewhat decent. Is it true?
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:19 pm 40. James Westlake:jonesy55,
how do you have the patience?
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:20 pm 41. Brian:“It’s ironic though that Obama’s election will leave the US senate 100% white in a country with 12% African-Americans We all have work to do on this front, let’s not be smug.”
How convenient of you to leave out the House of Representatives or for that matter, the cabinet appointments to the executive branch.
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:27 pm 42. James Westlake:Carol,
“Racist taunts of black players and violence amongst young men at football matches is at an all-time high.’
No it’s not, taunting of black players in Britain is not only at an all time LOW but is now virtually unheard off. You are at least a quarter of a century out of touch. Try and get your facts right sunshine if you want people to take you even half seriously!
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:27 pm 43. jonesy55:James, I think she’s talking about the homophobic insults towards Sol Campbell last weekend, not good but her facts are still wrong.
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:40 pm 44. jonesy55:“This is only the tip of the iceberg.
In 2006 I moved from Hungary to England because I had a deep respect for the Old English culture, that of ladies and gentlemen.
And what I found in Birmingham is mostly a disappointing population of tracksuit-wearing, obese, binge-drinking o’royt’moyt’s.
It’s quite sad that the country I respected much from afar became so… vulgar.
I think next year is the time to move out. But I want to stay in Europe. Any recommendations? Switzerland? Austria? I hear that they have managed to stay somewhat decent. Is it true?”
Miklos, I’m sorry to say but your disappointment is only a product of your previous ignorance, the UK has always had drunks, social misfits, disenfranchised working class people etc. it was never a country exclusively full of ladies and gentlemen.
I work in Birmingham and it’s true that there are obese tracksuit wearing people there, I won’t deny it. but you see who you want to see, you can quite easily hang around in other circles if you want to. If Obese people offend you then I would suggest France or Italy as they have the slimmest populations in Europe. Austria doesn’t have a great record on waistlines (too much schnitzel) so you might want to void it.
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:47 pm 45. jonesy55:“How convenient of you to leave out the House of Representatives or for that matter, the cabinet appointments to the executive branch.”
So is 12% of the House of Representatives African-American?
Of course it’s much easier to appoint minorities as the public doesn’t have to vote for them. The same happens here in the House of Lords.
Nov 12, 2008 - 1:49 pm 46. jonesy55:“BTW I live in a building of six apartment. The two upstairs are occupied by a Muslim lady of African decent and a Caribbean women. My next door neighbour is a Mexican. The downstairs apartments are occupied by a White Guy (Gay) and a Mediterranean bloke. We all get on just fine – this is the norm in London.”
James
It’s not too different even out here in the small-town provinces. On my street of 30 houses we have a Brazilan, a couple of british muslim familes, an italian, an australian, a chinese family and a couple of Poles at least that I know of and remarkably we all manage to go through a typical week without killing each other. In fact we all get on pretty well.
The internet-based fantasy world inhabited by some people here who have never spent as much as an hour in the UK is very far removed from reality.
Nov 12, 2008 - 2:06 pm 47. Carol Gould:James Westlake: I live in a country (the UK) where the subject of racism, homophobia and anti-Semitism in sport are constantly on the agenda and in the public discourse. Thierry Henry, Paul Ince, Sol Campbell and Rio Ferdinand have been in the news on this front. Joey Barton may face charges from Aston Villa after he racially abused the England Under-21 international Gabriel Agbonlahor. When Avram Grant, son of a Holoicaust survivor, took on Chelsea the anti-Semitic chanting and ‘Gasssss’ hissing was chilling, not to mention the death threats against him. This is not solely a British problem: we all know how Lewis Hamilton has been at the receiving end of disgraceful racial taunts in Spain. Conversely, how wonderful it is, year in and year out, to see black and white fans at baseball and football games across the USA, eating hot dogs and singing together; in Philadelphia black player Ryan Howard was honoured two weeks ago by mostly white, blue collar Phillies fans with a giant banner saying ‘Ryan Howaerd for President.’ Look up ‘racism in football’ and see how many thousands of entries there are about the UK and Europe.
Nov 12, 2008 - 3:01 pm 48. James Westlake:Jones,
“The internet-based fantasy world inhabited by some people here who have never spent as much as an hour in the UK is very far removed from reality.”
so right.
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 3:08 pm 49. Gambling Now! » Blog Archive » Pajamas Media » Decency Dying a Painful Death in British Culture:[...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onPajamas Media » Decency Dying a Painful Death in British CultureHere’s a quick excerptTheir current PM even rejects the notion of Swedishness and says that teh Swedes are just another ethnic group occupying an otherwise ordinary piece of real estate. They take political correctness and multiculturalism to new absurd … [...]
Nov 12, 2008 - 3:11 pm 50. Eric R.:As I asked in her previous article, why does she continue to live in the UK if it is such a hell hole, especially is she is a US citizen?
Actually, I don’t disagree with her assessment that it is a hell hole, but I don’t make myself look like a hypocrite by continuing to live there.
Hell, I don’t even want to visit there anymore.
Nov 12, 2008 - 3:13 pm 51. James Westlake:Carol Gould,
“Decency Dying a Painful Death in British Culture”
I realise as an aspiring polemicist you may feel the need to exaggerate but, whilst there certainly has been a coarsening in popular culture as exemplified by imbeciles such as Ross and Brand, it is slightly absurd to talk of the death of British culture. Our artists, musicians and novelist’s, for instance, produce works enjoyed by millions of people all over the world and whilst we may no longer have an empire (a good thing!) its cultural legacy is a rich, vibrant and diverse culture. To judge our culture primarily by the actions of a few idiotic celebrities and moronic football(soccer) fans would be like me condemning American culture having only listened to the records of 50 cent, the interviews of Sarah Palin and the comments of the bitter right wing extremists I regularly read here.
god bless
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 3:36 pm 52. Mary Jackson:Carol Gould – are you still here? You must be a masochist, that’s all I can say.
Why don’t you go back to America? You really won’t be missed. Not a bit.
Nov 12, 2008 - 4:15 pm 53. James Westlake:Carol Gould,
“I live in a country (the UK) where …”
I also live in the UK and whilst the incidents you mention are shameful this does not change the factual inaccuracy of your original statement:
“Racist taunts of black players and violence amongst young men at football matches is at an all-time high.’
Racist taunts of black players and violence at football matches is actually at an all-time low. I know what I am talking about as I attended football matches in the late 7O’s and 80’s when violence and racism was the norm. It isn’t now, which is why when these type of incidents do occur they are now ‘news’. I suggest you do a little more fact checking next time if you want to avoid looking like someone whose idea of research is a quick skim through the Op-eds of last weeks Daily Mail.
Westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 4:19 pm 54. Mary Jackson:James Westlake, you are quite right. And like many ignorant and arrogant Americans, Ms Gould fails to see that protests and complaints about British society, for example in the Daily Mail, are actually a sign of health.
Is everything wonderful in North Korea because the press says so? Is Saudi Arabia free of domestic violence because women do not dare complain? I don’t think so.
Also, Ms Gould clearly lacks a sense of humour. She would be better off in a more puritan country – her homeland perhaps.
Nov 12, 2008 - 4:29 pm 55. ex-democrat:mary, james and jonesy: I grew up in the UK, but find very grim now when I visit.
Nov 12, 2008 - 5:06 pm 56. kochevnik:but why trust my senses when i can rely on your (internet) protestations instead?
Wow, complaints of impropriety from the party that approves torturing children in from of their parents to extract confessions, including the President’s right to order the crushing of a child’s testicles? Goes nicely with waterboarding and other forms of torture.
Nov 12, 2008 - 6:06 pm 57. daddy dave:Mary Jackson:
“Is everything wonderful in North Korea because the press says so? Is Saudi Arabia free of domestic violence because women do not dare complain? I don’t think so.”
those are such beautifully irrelevant lines, they brought a smile to my face. Yes, it’s true: criticism is a sign of “health” to the extent that it shows that (a) not everyone agrees with the situation; and (b) there is a free press.
But Mary, you’re using the fact that there is criticism of the situation (in the British press) as a way of refuting other criticism (ie here at Pajamas media).
Nov 12, 2008 - 6:37 pm 58. skink:Think about that. Ask yourself if it makes any sense. (it doesn’t)
why do all these stories about the British have this slant about us ‘looking downour noses’ at Americans
we don’t look down our noses at Americans. We look down our noses at ignorant, insular and bigoted people with no style, substance or humour. It just happens that the U.S. population has a particularly high proportion of that type of person.
Nov 12, 2008 - 6:55 pm 59. Will Becker:I’m glad my ancesters were smart and strong enough to leave England two hundred years ago. The sad thing is we’re following in their path it seems.
Nov 12, 2008 - 6:56 pm 60. ak:Carol Gould should go back to the puritan, humorless land of rightwingers?
Okay, then all of you who comment here INCESSANTLY, sometimes answering yourself twelve freaking times in a row, and complain ceaselessly about the insane right-wingers that you see here every day, because you’re reading every column and every comment every day, and you can barely bring yourself to even answer these fools, although you’ll manage, sometimes twelve freaking times in a row and long after everyone else has left ….
Why don’t you go someplace that suits you better?
Nov 12, 2008 - 7:24 pm 61. Jason S:The BBC should be dismantled immediately. Once one of the most respected broadcasting organizations in the world, it now churns out nothing but left wing group-think and mindlessly shallow “entertainment” devised and produced by the pretentious, politically correct Islington dinner party circuit.
One such example recently was a drama called “Bonekickers” which featured a “fundamentalist Christian” beheading a Muslim (because as we all know, this is more likely to happen than the reverse, isn’t it?).
For years the BBC has gotten away with the most disgracefully biased news coverage, especially when the subject is Israel or America. Check out http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/ for daily updates on the kind of journalistic atrocities they broadcast daily.
Of course none of this would matter if the BBC was funded privately. Instead, it’s paid for by a compulsory license fee that all Brits have to purchase once a year if they own a T.V. set. In effect, the purchase of a T.V. in Britain requires you by law to purchase a subscription to a broadcasting organization which may well spend that money promoting values which are the opposite of your own.
The European Union went down like a ton of bricks on Microsoft for what it saw as their unfair monopoly. European neosocialists resent the fact that nearly all PC’s are bundled with Microsoft products. However they remain silent on the subject of the mandatory bundling of the BBC with all British TV sets.
For an idea of the kind of garbage the BBC broadcasts, consider the long running political discussion show “Question Time” which broadcast an episode two days after 9/11 when bodies still lay under the smoldering wreckage of the Towers. The entire show was an anti-American hate-fest in which members of the studio audience stood up and shouted abuse at the U.S, blaming it for the attacks and saying that we “had it coming.”
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:06 pm 62. expat:we don’t look down our noses at Americans. We look down our noses at ignorant, insular and bigoted people with no style, substance or humour. It just happens that the U.S. population has a particularly high proportion of that type of person.
Amazing – brits calling americans ‘insular and bigoted’??? Thank God for one good laugh today….
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:08 pm 63. angry white dude:Who cares what the EuroTrash think? Another generation and they’ll be speaking Arabic. They are the parsley on the plate of international life. We kept them from speaking German….I wonder who’ll save them this time?
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:15 pm 64. Mary Jackson:I grew up in the UK, but find very grim now when I visit.
Don’t visit. You won’t be missed.
Every article by Carol Gould has been a dreary whinge, riddled with inaccuracies and prissy moralising. And she writes for an audience even more ignorant than she is and all too eager to lap it up.
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:29 pm 65. Mary Jackson:We kept them from speaking German….
I wondered how long it would be before this nonsenese was trotted out.
America entered the war – eventually – when it was in her interests to do so and to protect her interests. Those interests happened to coincide with ours at the time. Bit deal.
Nov 12, 2008 - 9:41 pm 66. jonesy55:Quite right Mary. I see constant whining here about ‘anti-americanism’ yet do a search on ‘Britain’ ‘Frace’ ‘Europe’ or whatever on this site and all you will see is a stream of snooty and moralising negative articles saying how terrible we all are each followed by dozens of ignorant comments which are sometimes insulting, sometimes just plain dumb..
Quite how these people then have the chutzpah to complain about anti-americanism in Europe baffles me.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:13 pm 67. jonesy55:“mary, james and jonesy: I grew up in the UK, but find very grim now when I visit.
but why trust my senses when i can rely on your (internet) protestations instead?”
Well, that’s your choice, fair enough. I also tust my senses and I find life here to be very good so I guess we just differ on that.
It’s a common lament amongst those growing old wherever they live that the world is going bad, it’s not like it was when they were young etc etc but this doesn’t meean it actually is becoming terrible, it’s just that the world is moving on and they are not. This is a story as old as progress itself.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:17 pm 68. jonesy55:“why do all these stories about the British have this slant about us ‘looking downour noses’ at Americans”
Yes, I’m perplexed by that, the person ‘looking down her nose’ here is Carol Gould who can’t stand the common oiks that surround her serene and moral self.
It’s a common accusation levelled by right-wing Americans against Europeans, it seems to be born out of some sort of cultural inferiority complex rather than any real attitude that Euopeans have which is a shame, the US has a rich culturally history and they should have more confidence in it.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:22 pm 69. ex-democrat:mary jackson – i shall continue to visit because my aging parents still live there – abiding, in painful frustration, the ruination of the country they love by the likes of fools such as you.
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:43 pm 70. James Westlake:angry white dude,
“Who cares what the EuroTrash think? Another generation and they’ll be speaking Arabic?”
Why do you think that? (I’m trying to find out if people like you really believe this kind of stuff or are just trying to get attention)
peace
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:48 pm 71. James Westlake:ak:
“(…) complain ceaselessly about the insane right-wingers that you see here every day”
If you accept that a proportion of posters here can correctly be described as “insane right-wingers” don’t you then accept that this insanity should be challenged?
westlake
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:54 pm 72. RF:“UK: Muslim man strangles, stabs, and slits throat of “petite” 19 year-old Catholic girl” -Jihad Watch
Proof. The British have a Mean Gene. It’s called Sharia.
Nov 13, 2008 - 12:31 am 73. David H:I would defend the Britain which I see when I visit my parents in Dorset, I would never defend the Britain created by Nu Labour and their followers…, they are as different as chalk and cheese!
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:12 am 74. daddy dave:“Why do you think that? (I’m trying to find out if people like you really believe this kind of stuff or are just trying to get attention)”
look at the demographic trends, in particular trends for people of working age (since ageing populations tend to mask the speed of the shift). Or, you could read stuff on Europe by Mark Steyn (instead of reading “about” Mark Steyn on your favorite propaganda sites).
At any rate, the best thing about the competing claims about the future of Europe by both left and right is that they are empirical predictions with reasonably specific timelines. With any luck, the Right are completely wrong!
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:55 am 75. daddy dave:“I see constant whining here about ‘anti-americanism’ ”
….hence you’re implying that complaints of widespread anti-americanism outside of america are unfounded, unjustified or exaggerated. So now we know you’re full of it. You’re clearly not here to debate in good faith.
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:59 am 76. daddy dave:Don’t take it from us, get it from the horses mouth:
Nov 13, 2008 - 2:21 am 77. Jonesy55:—–
“You must destroy the West” — so said a speaker at a recent conference in London. The conference featured Islamic leaders openly calling for the overthrow of the British government and the establishment of an Islamic state in Britain
—–
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=29455
lol, Daddy Dave, I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist, I’m just wondering why those who complain about it are so happy to indulge their own anti-isms. pot, kettle, black?
I would say that sites like this exaggerate the extent and intensity of anti-americanism though, certainly in Europe.
Nov 13, 2008 - 2:22 am 78. Jonesy55:Here’s some interesting reading on attitudes towards the USA.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr08/BBCEvals_Apr08_rpt.pdf
As you can see, France, which usually gets bashed more than anywhere else by Americans over anti-americanism is no more negative towards the USA than Australia is and considerably more positive than either Canada, Japan or Mexico.
Nov 13, 2008 - 2:28 am 79. Jonesy55:“Don’t take it from us, get it from the horses mouth:
—–
“You must destroy the West” — so said a speaker at a recent conference in London. The conference featured Islamic leaders openly calling for the overthrow of the British government and the establishment of an Islamic state in Britain”
That’s what free speech brings. You will always get some extremist nut-cases and no doubt these guys are being closely monitored by the security services.
I could organise a conference calling for free pancakes every day but it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.
Nov 13, 2008 - 2:46 am 80. James Westlake:David H,
“I would defend the Britain which I see when I visit my parents in Dorset, I would never defend the Britain created by Nu Labour and their followers…, they are as different as chalk and cheese!”
You appear to think Dorset has it’s own Government!
peace
westlake
Nov 13, 2008 - 2:53 am 81. daddy dave:thanks for the link Jonesy55, it’s interesting reading. However, I’m afraid it doesn’t refute the notion that there is much anti-americanism around. The fact that France is less anti-American than some people think is interesting and heartening, but rather beside the point.
“I’m just wondering why those who complain about it are so happy to indulge their own anti-isms.”
I could use one of the most common anti-american sophistries right back at you here: the article isn’t anti-British, it’s just criticising some aspects of modern British culture that, of course, not all Britons adhere to.
Nov 13, 2008 - 3:06 am 82. Jonesy55:Dorset County Council is a hot-bed of Libertarian ideology!!
Nov 13, 2008 - 3:10 am 83. Jonesy55:“I could use one of the most common anti-american sophistries right back at you here: the article isn’t anti-British, it’s just criticising some aspects of modern British culture that, of course, not all Britons adhere to.”
Yes you could, in which case the same could be said about various ‘anti-american’ sentiments/articles in Europe. But it would seem strange to excuse one side’s ‘anti-isms’ and not the others in my opinion.
Nov 13, 2008 - 3:26 am 84. RE:I recall a recent article in the Telegraph regarding the exodus of Native Brits from the UK. It seems that a great many emphatically share Ms. Gould’s opinion and have voted with their feet.
All I know is that when the topic turns to class, elegance, or manners contemporary Britain does not come to mind, but if he topic turns to binge drinking, ‘Behead those who insult Islam!’, cultural suicide, or social decline then the UK is right up front.
Theodore Dalrymple has written some excellent books and articles on it for those interested.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=theodore+darlymple&x=0&y=0
It’s all quite sad, actually.
Nov 13, 2008 - 5:01 am 85. Jonesy55:If you judge the country on what is written in Theodore Darlymple’s writings then I can certainly see why you would be sad. Indeed if the place was genuinely that bad I myself would have either moved out or killed myself long ago.
Fortunately it isn’t so you can cheer up.
This ‘déclinisme’ as the french label their particular brand of pessimistic and curmudgeonly writing of this sort seems to be just an indulgence of grumpy old men who want to paint worst-case scenarios about how society isn’t just the way they want it to be and ignore anything positive. I can certainly see how it would depress one if this was the main source of information that you had about society but while this type of writing can make some relevant points, the doom and gloom is a far cry from the reality of most people’s lives.
Many (most?) of the people who have moved out of the UK in the past few years are baby boomers benefitting from the high value of sterling to cash in their overinflated houses and move to somewhere sunnier with a cheaper cost of living for their retirement.
This isn’t neccesarily a damning indictment of the UK any more than New Yorkers moving to Florida means that the empire state is a god-foresaken wasteland with a dying culture.
You can look at it as a negative phenomenon if you want to or you can look at the positive, many working class and lower middle class Brits have been able to afford a nice home in a pleasant climate to wind down in during their later years. I’m sure many pensioners would have loved the oppurtunity to do this in the 50s, 60s or 70s but it was out of the question for all but the rich back then. Does that mean that the country is a worse place than it was?
Indeed, now that house prices are plummeting and sterling is falling into the abyss, watch these trends in outward migration change. Not because people suddenly decide that they want to stay any more than they did last year but because changing economic circumstances mean that they can no longer take advantage of uniquely favourable conditions for moving elsewhere in the world that have existed over the past several years.
Nov 13, 2008 - 5:49 am 86. Mary Jackson:It seems that a great many emphatically share Ms. Gould’s opinion and have voted with their feet.
Such is their right. I think that England, and London in particular, is a fantastic place to live.
I only wonder why Ms Gould has not done the same, especially as she has American citizenship, and America is, in contrast to this sceptic isle, such a wonderful place.
Could it be that she could not then make a living from whining about her homeland? Could it be that people take their disappointments with them, and that someone with a tendency to moan and bleat will not be happy anywhere?
Nov 13, 2008 - 5:53 am 87. Andrew Ian Dodge:According to the Sun at least, Prince Charles is a Fawlty Towers fan as well. Might the Palace have been involved in pressuring the BBC?
MJ: It is true that London is a wonderful place to visit right now. However it is not pleasant to live there right now due to the high taxes, higher crime levels and morose attitude of everyone in the service industry. Fortunately we live in a world where we can move away when things get a bit too much.
Nov 13, 2008 - 6:00 am 88. Mary Jackson:However it is not pleasant to live there right now due to the high taxes, higher crime levels and morose attitude of everyone in the service industry.
I disagree. I’ve lived in London for about fifteen years and thoroughly enjoy it.
Nov 13, 2008 - 6:06 am 89. Jonesy55:Andrew,
London wouldn’t be my choice of somewhere to live either, although most of the people I know who do live there love it. But I wouldn’t want to live in NYC, Chicago, LA, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong etc either. These huge cities have many things in common, crime, high cost of housing and people who are too busy all the time being some of them. They have advantages of course, highly paid jobs, thriving cultural scenes, cosmopolitan atmosphere etc which for many people outweigh the negatives.
Nov 13, 2008 - 6:22 am 90. Letters From A Tory:I live in the UK and I can assure you that the vast majority of people living in this country think Russell Brand is an overpaid, over-rated prick.
The point about high taxes is probably fair, but blame Gordon Brown for screwing up our economy – not us.
Nov 13, 2008 - 6:32 am 91. The Voice of Experience:Now that Obama is the Supreme Leader of the Universe maybe he can find some sort of menial public service for dolts like Kochevnik to do so they can stop polluting forums with their fantasies and embarrassing themselves in public.What a waste of bandwidth.
Nov 13, 2008 - 8:01 am 92. James Westlake:Jonesy55
“I could organise a conference calling for free pancakes every day but it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen”
It might be worth a try.
westlake
Nov 13, 2008 - 8:09 am 93. jonesy55:James,
I think Obama is already arranging for this so I don’t need to.;)
Nov 13, 2008 - 8:35 am 94. Heather:“It’s ironic though that Obama’s election will leave the US senate 100% white in a country with 12% African-Americans We all have work to do on this front, let’s not be smug.”
Start with the racist Democrats who refused to vote for Michael Steele.
Nov 13, 2008 - 9:00 am 95. kochevnik:The Voice of Experience,
I trust that splinter in your mind will slowly become an abscess. Please share with the the drama as it unfolds.
Nov 13, 2008 - 9:05 am 96. susan:“Like a stalker she appears, I have shown no venom towards anybody Susan, that is your forte. ”
stupid jonesy, we have already established that you have no place here because you do not share the conservative values that the majority here shares, therefore I am not stalking anybody. I am looking for intelligent posts to read and unfortunately i find your garbage.
Why don’t you go to the daily kos, I am sure you will read that your shitty country is the best in the world.
“About 38,000 last year, too many it’s true but there are countries in the developed world with a much worse record. ”
I do not list the uk in the “developed world” nations.
“You left this planet a long time ago didn’t you Susan, how can 2% of the population which is actually underrepresented in most decision making bodies be ‘our masters’. Your paranoid fantasies show nothing but the warped state of your mind.”
those 2% of population are dictating your way of life. You succeed in making muslims the most pampered minority in england, all out of fear, because you are a bunch of spineless cowards.
I bet you eat halal meal at your restaurant alraedy and you don’t even know it.
“Whatever floats your boat Susan but it’s worth remebering that we allowed Eastern Europeans to live and work in the UK without restriction as soon as they joined the EU while the rest of western Europe tried to keep them out for as long as possible. ”
oh Sweet lies. It is exactly the opposite, you banned Romanians and bulgarians even if they were EU members.
TRy with another lie to defend your pathetic country.
Nov 13, 2008 - 9:43 am 97. susan:“Eric, forgive me but a blog named “Gates of Vienna” isn’t the first place i’d think of looking for balanced coverage of this issue.”
probably you get the rose tinted reality that you want to hear from a site called “muslimsownyoura$$.com”
You are the kind of person that would read the Goebbels to know how they treated the jews back then.
Can you deny that the stories written there are true? Rape is rampant in sweden no thanks to local swedish. Malmo suburbs are no-go areas for police and the swedish perfect socialist state is collapsing because of wild immigration.
Eric is right.
Nov 13, 2008 - 9:47 am 98. susan:“In 2006 I moved from Hungary to England because I had a deep respect for the Old English culture, that of ladies and gentlemen.
And what I found in Birmingham is mostly a disappointing population of tracksuit-wearing, obese, binge-drinking o’royt’moyt’s. ”
Miklos, I had the pleasure last year to travel extensively in eastern europe including your beautiful Hungary.
I was working for a top multinational company and wherever i went (poland, Hungary, Estonia, Czech) I told them that like it happened 1000 years ago, Europe’s rebirth will be from the EAST!
And it’s true, Birmingham looks more a pakistan slump than a british city.
Nov 13, 2008 - 9:51 am 99. susan:“That’s what free speech brings. You will always get some extremist nut-cases and no doubt these guys are being closely monitored by the security services.”
pathetic jonesy, you are in a corner, there is NO WAY that a british person can say let’s destroy islam and get away with it with FREE SPEECH.
Members of BPN have been questioned and harassed for saying a lot less.
Your London Mayor, communist ken got away with a perfectly anti-semitic slur.
He would have been dead if it was an anti-muslim slur.
Killed by you politically correct retards.
Nov 13, 2008 - 9:59 am 100. jonesy55:“I bet you eat halal meal at your restaurant alraedy and you don’t even know it.”
Almost certainly not, halal meat supply is nowhere near enough to supply a significant proportion of the UK’s restaurants and i’m not sure if halal pork has yet been invented anyway. Maybe at an Indian/Pakistani restaurant but that wouldn’t be surprising or abnormal.
“oh Sweet lies. It is exactly the opposite, you banned Romanians and bulgarians even if they were EU members.”
Because having allowed Poles, Czechs, Baltic states etc to work here when most other western european countries did not allow the same rights, most Poles, czechs, Balts etc naturally came here rather than to the countries that continued to block them, causing one of the largest short-term inward migrations the UK has seen. If the other western European nations had given the Poles and others the right to work in their countries without restrction, there would have been no need for the UK to then restrict the next wave of accession countries.
Try again.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:02 am 101. jonesy55:“I do not list the uk in the “developed world” nations.”
Unfortunately for you, the Susan Rankings of development are not recognised anywhere outside your own addled mind.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:05 am 102. David H:Obviously your rather silly attempt to make a joke about a government not existing for Dorset shows that you really do have no idea why parts of Dorset really are what England used to be, I wish you an Islamic peace in return.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:13 am 103. jonesy55:Now, now, david, I like a trip to Bournemouth or Poole as much as anybody but it doesn’t have its own government does it? Just a council like anywhere else. Dorset is nice though, i’ll give you that.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:27 am 104. kochevnik:epb,
The people of America don’t agree with you. If you don’t like their opinion and want to be unAmerican, why don’t you move to your wonderful, liberated paraside of Bagdad? I hear there’s even a McDonalds. You will be right at home, with people who think as you do.
>If you really believe your rhetoric, kochevnik,
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:45 am 105. Valerie:>you live in the land of make believe.
Fry ain’t no pro-American saint. I’ve seen him on UK TV spouting his share of anti-Bush and anti-American garbage. When he made that little program of his, he must have been coming out of one of his spectacular depressions and feeling good about life. That said, if the show was somewhat positive, that’s nice. UK media and media personalities rarely have a nice word for us yanks.
The aspect of UK youth culture that I find the most tragic right now is their attitude toward sex. They no longer have any concept of what intimacy is and if you’ve ever seen a show like big brother there, you’ll hear young adults going on loudly and incessantly about how they are ”gagging” for it and, incredibly, no one else in the house ever says ”hey, mate, keep that to yourself, it ain’t my business”. No one. Ever. (In fact, one housemate could knife another and all the ones would sit there and watch and never lift a finger.)
How could ross and that horrid brand not think that what they were doing was funny and totally acceptable? No one in the studio with them reacted, did they?
I’m not saying that there aren’t good Brits. Of course there are. But when you see this type of open disregard for appropriate behavior on a daily basis even on TV and radio, you know that it’s very prevalent elsewhere.
Just look at the young women drunk on sidewalks every night outside the bars. And see them being interviewed and saying that they woke up in some strange bloke’s bed and don’t know if they were raped, had consexual sex, or whatever. No big deal. What you can’t remember can’t hurt you, eh.
Nov 13, 2008 - 11:07 am 106. susan:“Almost certainly not, halal meat supply is nowhere near enough to supply a significant proportion of the UK’s restaurants and i’m not sure if halal pork has yet been invented anyway. Maybe at an Indian/Pakistani restaurant but that wouldn’t be surprising or abnormal.”
BWHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Parents angered as every pupil is given halal school meals
Halal meat is being served to pupils in state schools without their knowledge, even if they believe the religious slaughter is cruel.
Parents have reacted furiously after being sent letters telling them their children’s school dinners have been all-halal for ’some time’.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-423111/Parents-angered-pupil-given-halal-school-meals.html
Compulsory halal meat in UK schools
Cranmer is indebted to his faithful communicant Ms Dexey for bringing his attention to the fact that Reading schools are serving halal meat to their students with neither their foreknowledge nor parental approval.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2006/12/compulsory-halal-meat-in-uk-schools.html
AND IT’S NOT OVER. Sometimes the problem is not halal or haram
Shop-owners sold chocolate cake sprinkled with human faeces
Shop owners Saeed Hasmi, 25, and Jan Yadgari, 23, were fined £1,500 for selling food unfit for human consumption.
The pair – who ran the Italiano Pizzeria in Roath, Cardiff – admitted the charge but did not say how the chocolate cake was contaminated.
Poisoning food with feces is detailed as a tactic in the Al-Qaeda manual found a few years ago by British intelligence.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihad16chap7.html
But of course, I live in a parallel universe, jonesy, what are you going to say now?
That you don’t qualify the links as reliable news?
What is a reliable news? what Al-jazeera says?
“Because having allowed Poles, Czechs, Baltic states etc to work here when most other western european countries did not allow the same rights”
I agree, it must be terrible for your stupid island to have around decent people that are 100% literate, hard working and SHOCK!!! White and christian.
You prefer illiterate, lazy, sexist and racist pakis.
Was it someone called Modrakowski blowing up your london tube?
Nov 13, 2008 - 11:49 am 107. MB Kitchen:“…and knife crime are breaking all records..”
‘Right then… we can ban owning knives too. That will surely stop the assaults and violence.’
Nov 13, 2008 - 12:02 pm 108. David H:Actually it does not have its own government just like the UK in fact
Nov 13, 2008 - 12:13 pm 109. Mary Jackson:racist pakis.
Can she see the irony? Of course not.
Nov 13, 2008 - 12:14 pm 110. susan:No, mary I do not see the irony. Do you think that it’s czech and estonians bringing honor killings, forced marriage, child brides into your country?
stay deluded please, with the uk sinking so fast, the more barbarians you import, the less they infest other countries.
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:11 pm 111. steve:Britain has become a serious joke, why do you think were leaving in droves?
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:22 pm 112. David H:Mary, I have often wondered why we as being British can be called Brits, and that is not racist and then when one uses the term Paki, which is short for Pakistan you are racist when you are just referring to the short name of a country to define the person as originating from there, the next time some one calls me a Brit I will accuse them of racism as I live in France. I find being called Roast Beef quite amusing…
Of course I understand that it was used in a derogatory fashion by people who did not like them, so I guess that answers my own question, in truth the world is just completely mad.
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:33 pm 113. view from afar:Ok, Jonsey, Mary Jackson, and james westlake: I know that people do not like to have their home (heart-home) countries ripped apart by foriegners… I certainly don’t and can understand that you wouldn’t either. Somehow, I don’t think Carol Gould is trying to shred your country, but point out that there are some serious questions about the choices that younger Brits are making today. France is terrified of the problems of alcoholism in British adolesents crossing the channel, it’s on the news quite often. I don’t doubt that life can be good in England, but I am sorry, the British expats here in SW France are getting younger and younger, have families, with young children who come here because life has become unliveable(sp?) in various parts of England. I am alone here, except for ULTRA rich AMerican lawyers, judges and so forth, in their second homes(like it was for Brits 15-20years ago), and Americans temporarily living here on American salaries. Ok the world hates the US for it’s standard of living and its freedoms, most people don’t even know what life is like in the US, outside of tilted reports and stupid outdated police shows…which is what you complain about in this blog, maybe everybody hasn’t a clue about the other side? I really enjoyed my stay in England, back in 1991, but everyone here tells me that it has so dramatically changed from then, so I am sorry for that. I am also glad that there are pockets of wonderfulness left where you three are, and we can hope then that the protests against these other idiots will maybe bring about some changes. However from what I can tell, there are more Europeans commenting here than Americans, except for kochevnik, and NO ONE knows where that person is, they aren’t even on topic…anyways, Susan glad to run into you again, and always with links to prove your points.
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:38 pm 114. view from afar:Good point David H…however its ros-bif in French (I don’t even get to be a yank here Grenouille land, ok that’s way over the top, sarcasism, awful whatever…)
Nov 13, 2008 - 1:43 pm 115. Carol Gould:May I correct a notion on this board? I am being told to go back to America and being called a ‘foreigner criticising Britain.’ I have lived in the UK for 32 years and have been a taxpayer and ratepayer for 29 years. I criticise Ross and Brand and am told to go back to the USA. So, does this mean the 37,000 good people who complained to tne BBC about their filth should leave the country? By the way, much as many correspondents would like to see the back of me, like most people in the UK I have no dhosh and can’t afford to move. And I can’t be deported because I am a British citizen.
Nov 13, 2008 - 2:34 pm 116. Mary Jackson:So, does this mean the 37,000 good people who complained to tne BBC about their filth should leave the country?
Those people complained about Ross and Brand. Fair enough. But you extrapolate from Ross and Brand to a whole country – a country which you chose to come and live in. You also have citizenship of another country, which according to you is paradise on earth.
I have no dhosh
Really? Says on your website that you live in St John’s Wood. Perhaps there are some poor people there, who knows? In any case, you seem to have got yourself a nice little earner bleating about the UK. Perhaps it will earn you your passage out.
Bon voyage.
Nov 13, 2008 - 3:16 pm 117. James Westlake:Hi Carol,
what do you like most about living in the UK?
regards
westlake
Nov 13, 2008 - 4:00 pm 118. Mary Jackson:Yes, do tell what has made you leave the land of the free and the home of the brave and settle in this cess pit for thirty-two years.
One year could be a mistake. Two years looks like carelessness. But thirty-two years?
Nov 13, 2008 - 4:22 pm 119. susan:The typical passive-agressive attitude that is full on display by raging minorities is also expressed here by some deluded british nationals.
Whenever a problem is brought into light, do not address the problem, but shoot the messenger instead. British people here suffer from some serious delusion of grandeur, they should turn their energies and rage towards the people who are causing problems (either them directly or the politicians that are silent and compliacent about it)
If raging against the author is the kind of attitude that makes you feel more intelligent, then be it.
But really, it is not intelligent at all.
BTW, the same words can be found in Melanie Phillips on the Spectator UK who also wrote LONDONISTAN.
She is born in the UK, as far as I know and she is saying the same things, on the decline of England, the muslims priviledges, the fall of decency etc.
I bet you will call her too some “right-wing lunatic”
Nov 13, 2008 - 4:51 pm 120. Carol Gould:Gosh, the nasties are really hard at work here. I was ill over and over again for many years and developed breast cancer in 2006; in the previous years my two UK endowment policies crashed, my UK pension funds crashed etc etc. I lost my home in the USA and will likely lose the one here very soon. For many years things have been very scary but I soldiered on, mentored young British film students, worked for seven charities, volunteered in local organisations and before I got sick was responsible for some of the most beloved TV dramas on ITV for ten years. And before the comments come in about my sponging off the NHS, please note I ‘went private’ on BUPA provided by the Journalists’ union group plan. What else would you like to know? Why not read the blurb at the bottom of my articles to learn more about me and go to my website, Current Viewpoint? Anyone reading this who has suffered protracted illness will understand how quickly one can go from prosperity to ‘no dhosh.’
Nov 13, 2008 - 4:58 pm 121. Mary Jackson:Well I am sorry to hear of your ill-health, but that is not the fault of this country. And it may have contributed to your rose-coloured view of the country of your youth.
People make bad investments all over the world. Just think – if you’d stayed put, you could have invested in property with a sub-prime mortgate.
Still, having “no dhosh”, you will be better off here than in the US, I imagine.
Nov 13, 2008 - 5:47 pm 122. jonesy55:“The aspect of UK youth culture that I find the most tragic right now is their attitude toward sex. They no longer have any concept of what intimacy is and if you’ve ever seen a show like big brother there, you’ll hear young adults going on loudly and incessantly about how they are ”gagging” for it and, incredibly, no one else in the house ever says ”hey, mate, keep that to yourself, it ain’t my business”. No one. Ever. (In fact, one housemate could knife another and all the ones would sit there and watch and never lift a finger.)”
Judging a country by the misfits that go on big brother is akin to judging a country by the misfits that appear on Jerry Springer. Would it be reasonable to suppose that all Americans are knuckle-dragging, inbred, tattoed thugs? Of course not, let’s have some perspecive here please.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:12 pm 123. jonesy55:“Ok, Jonsey, Mary Jackson, and james westlake: I know that people do not like to have their home (heart-home) countries ripped apart by foriegners… I certainly don’t and can understand that you wouldn’t either.”
Actually I don’t have a problem with it as long as the criticism is reasonable and constructive, it’s just knee-jerk and ill-informed comments from people who have no idea of the real situation other than what they selectively read in the press that irk me.
“Somehow, I don’t think Carol Gould is trying to shred your country, but point out that there are some serious questions about the choices that younger Brits are making today. France is terrified of the problems of alcoholism in British adolesents crossing the channel, it’s on the news quite often.”
Carol clearly tailored her piece to reflect what this audience wanted to hear but that’s fine, so do most journalists. As long as the reader is aware that this is what is happening there’s no problem.
I am also quite concerned about the levels of binge drinking among Brits, it’s not healthy and needs to be controlled. This is a facet of our culture which contrasts very badly with countries such as France and Italy for example.
However it would be wrong to suppose that this is a new thing that has sprung up from nowhere in the modern era. Anybody familiar with British social history will be aware that this is a constantly recurring theme over the centuries in this country, from William Hogarth’s etchings of mothers drunk on gin in the squalid back-alleys of 18th century London, through the neccesity for nationwide temperance movements in the Victorian era and the need to introduce severe licensing restrictions during WWI to stop munitions workers turning up drunk at the factories. It comes and goes in waves of severity and at the moment this is one of those times. There will be a backlash I’m sure and things will turn the other way, as they have done in the past.
It would also be a misconception to think that this is liited to the UK. Go to Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Russia and most other countries in Northern Europe and you will find a similar culture, again something that has a long history in those parts of the world.
“I don’t doubt that life can be good in England, but I am sorry, the British expats here in SW France are getting younger and younger, have families, with young children who come here because life has become unliveable(sp?) in various parts of England. I really enjoyed my stay in England, back in 1991, but everyone here tells me that it has so dramatically changed from then, so I am sorry for that.”
Actually, it is not that much different to 1991, sure things always move on but in many ways the country is better, (and in some worse of course). It is common to hear ex-pats complain about life back in their former country, after all for many, not liking it was a reason they left. But for every ex-pat, there are thousands who choose to stay and probably have a different slant on things.
“anyways, Susan glad to run into you again, and always with links to prove your points.”
I’m sorry but if you cannot see the aggressive attitude that this person takes then I give up. The links she sometimes provides can illustrate an occurence of something but as far as I can see, they actually prove nothing.
For example I could say that the USA was a country of deranged, murderous small children and post a link like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html
It would illustrate a case of what I was talking about but it certainly would not prove my claim, far from it. Any reasonable person would realise that this is not an unusual case.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:49 pm 124. jonesy55:“May I correct a notion on this board? I am being told to go back to America and being called a ‘foreigner criticising Britain.’ I have lived in the UK for 32 years and have been a taxpayer and ratepayer for 29 years. I criticise Ross and Brand and am told to go back to the USA. So, does this mean the 37,000 good people who complained to tne BBC about their filth should leave the country? By the way, much as many correspondents would like to see the back of me, like most people in the UK I have no dhosh and can’t afford to move. And I can’t be deported because I am a British citizen.”
Carol, I don’t think that anybody wants to deport you, they are just concerned for your welfare when you clarly dislike life here so much.
I’m sorry to hear about your endowments, unfortunately it’s not just UK equties that have taken a tumble, have your looked at the Dow, the Nikkei or the CAC40 recently?
However, if you still have a house in St John’s Wood, I find it unlikely that you really can’t afford to move if you wanted to. If penniless orphans from Somalia can move around the world to start a better life then I’m sure a well-to-do journalist and TV producer could find some way to do it. Not that it’s any of my business, I just don’t like to see somebody in a situation they clearly dislike. Anyway, I wish you good health in the future and hope you cheer up a bit.
PS, thanks for the biographical detail, now I can see where the anti-BBC stuff was coming from, lol.
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:59 pm 125. jonesy55:Comment 123, last sentence is obviously supposed to read ‘this is an unusual case’ !
Nov 13, 2008 - 11:01 pm 126. jonesy55:Oh, I just noticed this one:
“pathetic jonesy, you are in a corner, there is NO WAY that a british person can say let’s destroy islam and get away with it with FREE SPEECH”
So are your friends Robert Kilroy-Silk and Peter Hitchens dead or are they in jail?
Or are they, in reality, neither?
Nov 13, 2008 - 11:08 pm 127. Shef Rogers:The Brits’ rough honesty is one of their finest traits, and the mealy-mouthed verbal cowardice of American culture one of its most contemptible.
Nov 13, 2008 - 11:36 pm 128. daddy dave:I’ve rarely seen a more wrongheaded article.
“The Brits’ rough honesty is one of their finest traits,”
hardly. vulgarity and honesty are not the same thing. The British don’t have a reputation for being either “rough” or “honest”.
“mealy-mouthed verbal cowardice of American culture one of its most contemptible”
why? because it’s culturally appropriate to say
Nov 14, 2008 - 1:02 am 129. Jonesy55:restroom instead of toilet, for example? Maybe your attitude reflects the real problem with British culture. It’s permanently stuck at “rebellious at 17″ and is hence developing a serious case of alcoholism.
What’s wrong with saying toilet? That’s what it is. Call it a restroom if you like but I don’t go there for a rest, lol. If this is considered an example of vulgarity then I’d prefer it to puritanism.
Nov 14, 2008 - 1:57 am 130. Mary Jackson:Perhaps Ms Gould does have a sense of humour after all. Claiming to have “no dhosh” while owning a house – not a flat (apartment) but a house – in St John’s Wood, is pretty funny.
For those Americans not very familiar with the UK – and I suspect there are quite a few reading this – St John’s wood is an area of north London that is, per Wikipedia, “home to some of the most expensive properties in the world”.
Most houses in St John’s Wood have five or six bedrooms, but perhaps the impoverished Ms Gould owns a “pokey” three bedroom house. Like the one on the market with Winkworth’s Estate Agents for a “mere” £2,750,000. That’s $4 million.
I should be so poor.
Nov 14, 2008 - 4:13 am 131. susan:“I’m sorry but if you cannot see the aggressive attitude that this person takes then I give up. The links she sometimes provides can illustrate an occurence of something but as far as I can see, they actually prove nothing. ”
LOL, I have just proved you that you are probably eating halal meat and the best you can say is that “it proves nothing”?
down the drain.
And Kilroy lost his job.
The people who walked around with “behead the pope” and “kill the queen” are still preaching hate in their mosque.
Oh and also:
BBC Radio host sacked after call to taxi firm requesting ‘non-Asian’ driver
A BBC Radio presenter has been sacked following a ‘racist’ call to a taxi firm, in which she requested a ‘non-Asian’ driver.
Sam Mason told the operator that ‘a guy with a turban would freak her daughter out’ insisting they send an English driver instead.
—————————–
What a pathetic country, why don’t you give it up already and give the keys to saudis?
Nov 14, 2008 - 4:58 am 132. Jonesy55:“LOL, I have just proved you that you are probably eating halal meat and the best you can say is that “it proves nothing”
Er, no, you haven’t proved anything, if you cannot see this, you are a fool.
You have shown me an article saying that some schools in Reading serve halal meat, I neither go to school nor live in Reading.
The UK halal meat industry is worth £900m. The total UK meat industry is worth around £20bn. Most Halal meat is consumed by Muslims in their homes or used in Muslim-run restaurants. You can probably do the calculations yourself to work out how much would be left over after this and what proportion of sales in other establishments it would make up.
Of course people should know what they are eating and some people don’t like this method of slaughter, just as some don’t like the cruelty involved in the raising of veal calves or foie gras. Others don’t have a problem with eating these products, that’s a decision for them.
“Oh and also:
BBC Radio host sacked after call to taxi firm requesting ‘non-Asian’ driver
A BBC Radio presenter has been sacked following a ‘racist’ call to a taxi firm, in which she requested a ‘non-Asian’ driver.
Sam Mason told the operator that ‘a guy with a turban would freak her daughter out’ insisting they send an English driver instead.”
So what does this have to do with muslims? Don’t tell me that you have a problem with Sikhs too Susan, I guess that’s another group to add to the “Susan hates…” list.
Nov 14, 2008 - 6:23 am 133. susan:“Er, no, you haven’t proved anything, if you cannot see this, you are a fool.
You have shown me an article saying that some schools in Reading serve halal meat, I neither go to school nor live in Reading.
of course you are so much dhimmified that the simple detail that they never bothered to warn parents escapes your pretty empty brain.
I bet there are many other things that you are getting under the table and you are not even aware of.
As I said, the more people like you, the better is for the rest of europe.
“So what does this have to do with muslims? Don’t tell me that you have a problem with Sikhs too Susan, I guess that’s another group to add to the “Susan hates…” list.”
the stupid look at the finger when you point at the moon.
Keep on sleeping. I am not writing the stuff for you because you are a lost cause and you deserve whatever misery is inflicted to your sorry kind, I am writing for the rest of american people here, because never again in their life they must be subjected to the venom and insults of idiotic british losers like yourself.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
Nov 14, 2008 - 7:49 am 134. jonesy55:For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
Dream on Susan, go back to your miserable world of despair and hate. Look at both of our comments here and look at who has been venomous and who has thrown insults like confetti. Not me my dear.
Nov 14, 2008 - 10:20 am 135. deguello:For the record: Bush is not a cowboy retard,he is simply ,a retard plain and simple.
Nov 14, 2008 - 10:29 am 136. James Westlake:Susan,
“For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible”
Are a practitioner of Zen Buddhism?
shanti
westlake
Nov 14, 2008 - 11:31 am 137. Nerva:Some interesting comments here. Some are so true; some are based on perceptions that are not true!
As for the BBC, it broadcasts nationally EIGHT television channels and a dozen radio stations (plus a network of local radio stations). In my household, there are three TV sets for which I willingly pay the £130+ annual licence fee.
Why willingly? Because for all the BBC’s output, it works out at just over 30p a day (or around 50 US cents). Not all of the BBC’s output is popularist “trash” as they try to compete with commercial TV (ITV, C5, Murdoch’s very expensive subsctription Sky, and the once “public service” C4 who’s standards are dropping by the day as they try to build an audience to get the advertising).
The BBC is an institution that everyone loves to hate. If one’s poticis are to the left, you see the BBC as very “right wing”; and if your politics are to the right, the BBC has a very “left wing” bias!
Scrap the BBC and Murdoch, one of the most dangerous people in the world, would step-in … and he leads the crowd that is calling for the BBC to be scrapped.
True, the recent out-cry about the disgraceful “prank” pulled by Brand and Ross should never have happened. But the fact of the situation is that the BBC is said to have received TWO complaints following the broadcast. It was not until the Mail “news” paper reported the incident that the complaints flooded in. The Mail has just about every “phobia” possible and is a “nasty tabloid”. It hates foreigners, it hates the Government, it hates gays, it hates the BBC (well the company does have substantial financial interests in commercial broadcasting) … It, like the Sun (a Murdoch rag), thinks it runs the country … and probably does as politicians react to what these paper papers say!
As for the USA, I have lived there for around a quarter of my life. I love the country, but, like most people in UK and elsewhere, I am not a fan of the present President (but only a couple of months before a new one, who I am sure will try to build-up respect for his country around the world).
Yes, not everything is OK in Britain. Yes, there is a lot of racisim in football which the powers-that-be are trying to stamp out. Yes, Birmingham is not the best city in England – and I have known it for 50 years. Yes, the BBC could have handled the Brand/Ross scandal better. Yes, I have many friends who are Asian and Black, Yes, Britain is no better or no worse than any other European country, or for that matter the USA.
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:46 pm 138. Listen up:Looking for a civil, decent (even safe) society today is a sad venture. I looked on in dismay as a gay man yelled at and bullied a little grandma type lady and stomped the cross she carried…all this because she dared to oppose gay marriage. I think the only thing that kept him from beating her to death were the cameras and the news reporter. (was that not a hate crime?) It made we think of the episode in the Old Testament where homosexuals surrounded the house of a local man and demanded he hand over the male visitors to his home for their pleasure. God struck the homosexuals blind and still they groped to find the door to get in. Vileness is seeping into every area of our culture. Who will stand and fight it? “All evil needs to truimph is for good men to do nothing”
Nov 15, 2008 - 6:33 am 139. boqueronman:Sorry I don’t have the time or energy to follow the Jonesy dominated thread here. But his fascination with other people’s racism is interesting. He dost protest too much? Anyway, most people accept the existence racism as a subset of the natural human condition of the fear of the “other.” As one who was lucky enough to travel and live on other continents, please believe me when I say that “racism” or its equivalent exists in all communities, including African and Latin American. For anyone to believe that it can be overcome by an act of conscious collective will is deluding themselves. It is a battle that each person must fight within themselves and which has been fought most successfully in the U.S. Although, I have to ask if the irrational, frothing-at-the-mouth hatred of Sarah Palin as a person was/is an act of barbarous “racism?” For the Jonesys spewing it, it certainly looks like fear of the “other.”
Nov 15, 2008 - 1:15 pm 140. epb:Hey, kochevnik. I reject your summary declaration that people of America don’t believe me, ipso facto, believe you. Further, I repudiate the notion that disagreeing w/ public opinion is unAmerican. I thought your side says that dissent is patriotic? How ’bout you go to Baghdad, interview average Iraqi citizens on how they largely perceive US soldiers or just listen to returning soldier’s stories. I think you be forced to temper the usual liberal claptrap you spout so arrogantly.
Nov 15, 2008 - 3:14 pm 141. James Westlake:boqueronman.
“most people accept…”
“For anyone to believe…”
“it certainly looks like…”
“I have to ask if …”
Congratulations on you’re spirited attempt to wrap a defence of Sarah Palin and attack on another poster (through misrepresentation) in a voice of (quasi-)reasonable moderation it did make me smile. I had wondered what the Susans and Chucks of this world would sound like if they ever made some kind of attempt to sound half intelligent.
respect
westlake
BTW. If Ms Palin had mastered this trick maybe she’d now be a hair breadth away from being the most powerful person on earth and not the global laughing stock that she is (but hey, that’s probably just my fear of the “other” talking!)
Nov 15, 2008 - 3:17 pm 142. British media hits new indecency levels:[...] http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/decency-dying-a-painful-death … [...]
Nov 15, 2008 - 8:20 pm 143. Granny3:George Bush is an intelligent, decent, and very kind person. He has put up with more nastiness, hatefulness, stupidity, and spite than anyone since, perhaps, Abraham Lincoln.
He has not returned evil for evil, he has not defended himself to people calling him Bush Hitler, Chimpy, etc. To people writing the vilest things about him, he has returned nothng.
He has been gracious to Democrats and liberal “progressive” alike while they have denigrated him behind his back and in the press on a daily basis.
And he has had to live with a press consistently against him and anything he wanted to do. Constantly misrepresenting him and even not correcting outright lies which they printed or elucidated on the air. A press which has pandered to the Democrats so that polls show that most of the population of the United States realized that it was biased. And a press which has printed things which put our servicemen and out information gathering at risk in time of war.
Nothing has shown the true colors of liberalism like this. The true face has been revealed to those of us who’ve bothered to do any research.
It is disgusting and horrifying to watch any semblance of honor and truthfulness disappear from the left/progressive in this country. We will soon be reaping what they will sew.
Since the whiny, complaining, sore losers from the left have finally elected their beloved leader, one hopes that they will finally SHUT UP about George Bush and Sarah Palin. And stop all the lies they’ve perpetuated about Iraq. Get on with celebrating the “yes we cans” and leave the rest of us in peace.
Nov 15, 2008 - 11:33 pm 144. David H:And why not go back to kos or Huffington or moveon and stay there. You really have no desire to hear or understand what any conservative here has to say. Don’t lie to yourselves about it.
Westlake, that 97% of black people voted for Obama proved that racisim is alive and kicking very stronly in the USA. If 70% of blacks had voted for Obama I would have said no, but 97% is pure racism…
Nov 16, 2008 - 6:33 am 145. James Westlake:David,
“If 70% of blacks had voted for Obama I would have said no, but 97% is pure racism…”
how do you work that out?
westlake
Nov 16, 2008 - 7:29 am 146. susan:James Westlake is a mysoginist repuslive individual.
I suppose he’s either homosexual or has been charged with domestic violence at some point.
The amount of mud thrown at sarah palin has been previously unseen. So much for your “racism” cry.
You are the real racist/misogynist/sexist.
Nov 16, 2008 - 8:36 am 147. James Westlake:Hello Susan Darling,
“James Westlake is a mysoginist repuslive individual.”
I think that is slightly off topic sweetheart but I respect your right to both hold and express such views and admire the vigour with which you do so.
“I suppose he’s either homosexual or has been charged with domestic violence at some point.”
Why ‘either’ surely one could be both (FYI neither is the case)?
“The amount of mud thrown at sarah palin has been previously unseen. So much for your “racism” cry.”
Ms Palin is the same race as me silly!
God Bless
Westlake
Nov 16, 2008 - 10:36 am 148. jonesy55:“Sorry I don’t have the time or energy to follow the Jonesy dominated thread here. But his fascination with other people’s racism is interesting. ”
If you think that I am fascinated by other people’s racism then it is indeed clear that you haven’t followed the thread. Have I even used that word here? maybe someone can check.
“I have to ask if the irrational, frothing-at-the-mouth hatred of Sarah Palin as a person was/is an act of barbarous “racism?” For the Jonesys spewing it, it certainly looks like fear of the “other.””
Er, you might want to rescind that allegation as I have never said anything regarding Sarah palin, she is of very little interest to me.
Nov 16, 2008 - 10:59 am 149. David H:Susan, he is sexist, fits in very well with the Obama approach…
Nov 17, 2008 - 2:20 am 150. James Westlake:David H,
“Susan, he is sexist, fits in very well with the Obama approach…”
I suggest you go back to working on your maths formula sunshine…
“If 70% of blacks had voted for Obama I would have said no, but 97% is pure racism…”
WTF?
peace
westlake
Nov 17, 2008 - 3:18 am 151. David H:Diverting the attention from the 97% figure will not work charlie boy, that 97% voting figure is pure racism… not matter how you try to divert attention, and an Islamic peace to you!
Nov 17, 2008 - 4:28 am 152. roGER:Carol Gould reminds me of a Pantomime ugly sister the way she rants and raves about Britain.
Which is fine, one of the many British virtues is freedom of speech, even for bitter and twisted Americans who can’t afford to return home.
However, I do get a tad bit annoyed when Gould tells complete lies to support whatever enraged drivel she’s typed up. In this case her assertion:
“Racist taunts of black players and violence amongst young men at football matches is at an all-time high.”
Is 100% pure bullsh**. The truth is racism and crowd trouble at football matches has seldom been lower, at least for 30 years and possibly longer. One could forgive snap judgements in a new arrival, but Gould claims to have lived in Britain for 30 years or more.
Conclusion? Gould is either stupid, or a liar, or both. The smart money says both.
Nov 17, 2008 - 6:02 am 153. David H:Actually there has been a recent increase in racist taunts, but this is nothing compared to what it was in the 70’s, I took her writing to reflect the recent events and that she was ignoring the 70’s, she was in the UK in 1976, from what Carol has said she was working very hard during this period and may not have been aware of the racism at that point, also it was not flagged up as a major event as it happened so often. So from that prespective I understood where she was coming from, over the last year a few incidents were given the full media guilt trip so it created that impression. The key aspect to take from this article is the complete lack of taste shown by highly paid and what I would call alternative humour stars who are now mainstream. I really did enjoy the Young Ones, but that was actually not real life, Mr Brand seems to want to act like that in his real life and is really quite an offensive individual and Carol is right to express her feelings on this incident, many people feel the same way.
Nov 17, 2008 - 8:38 am 154. Carol Gould:David H, thank you. Readers are free to call PJM journalists ‘liars’ and ’stupid,’ but if there is no racism in British sport why is there an organisation called Kick Racism Out of Football? See:
http://www.kickitout.org/
If there is no racism and anti-Semitism in British and European sport then I need someone to tell me what planet I have been living on since 1976. In March 2008 the Telegraph had a headline: ‘Football ‘must act’ to avoid racism charge’ in an article by Jeremy Wilson. There are 2,240,000 entries on ‘racism in football’ of Google.
Nov 17, 2008 - 4:30 pm 155. Mary Jackson:I need someone to tell me what planet I have been living on since 1976.
Planet me me me.
Gould is either stupid, or a liar, or both.
Lying, certainly. Stupid insofar as she thought she could get away with it on this thread because there wouldn’t be any British readers who could see right through her.
Nov 17, 2008 - 4:42 pm 156. James Westlake:Carol Gould,
“Racist taunts of black players and violence amongst young men at football matches is at an all-time high.”
is what your article stated (and still does) and being wrong on both accounts robbed your piece of credibility. If you want to call yourself a “journalist” you really are going to have to do better and if you wanted to avoid being referred to as a liar you should have simply admitted your mistake and moved on. Instead you just keep on digging making yourself look more and more stupid (and/or dishonest).
sholem
westlake
Nov 17, 2008 - 6:54 pm 157. jonesy55:Carol, you are (deliberately?) missing the point. Yes, there is some racism in football, but your claim that it was at an ‘all time high’ is just plain wrong. Either it is a lie designed to give people a false impression or it is just a mistake, I would like to think it’s the latter.
Nov 17, 2008 - 11:11 pm 158. David H:Carol, the title which you refer to says it all “Football must act to avoid racism charge”, the racist chants are nothing compared to the 70’s, but because racism has such a high profile even if you get one idiot making chimp noises etc. it is blown out of all proportion as part of the race industry who are quite frankly looking for any racism to keep them in work apart from the problematic one of Muslims against Jews, because it is freedom of religion. So its easy publicity and keeps the racism merchants happy…
“Racist taunts of black players and violence amongst young men at football matches is showing worrying increases compared to recent low levels” would have been better.
I value your views, I left the UK in 1999, before the Labour party really got stuck in with change, but visit often on business and visiting so can see and speak to friends and family and business contacts who all give me the same sense of malaise.
Mary, I have been reading your articles for some time at New England Review, I am British and as far as I am concerned she is right in terms of her article, the racism part is overblown because of the reasons I put forward, but you cannot deny that basic standards of deceny have got worse over the years and Brand and Ross are a high profile example of that. But to call someone a liar or stupid when someone is expressing her view on what she has seen or feels is not what I would have expected from you. You may have taken it as being offensive and a bit sensationalist but the basic truth in the article cannot be denied.
As for this troll Westlake, he seems to think that one error of perception can make null and void the main point of the article, that is stupid.
Nov 18, 2008 - 1:07 am 159. Jonesy55:I would also add that this type of thing is mostly limited to football and is much much rarer at other sporting events. I can’t remember ever hearing about racist chanting at a rugby or cricket match, a horse racing meet, a basketball or ice hockey match, a track & field event.
Violent and thuggish gangs have latched onto football teams in Europe for decades as part of their ‘gang culture’. These people exist in the US too but they don’t seem to involve themselves with sports teams.
There is the occasional riot by North American sports fans though such as the Boston Celtics fans who went on the rampage this summer.
http://www.doubleazone.com/2008/11/more_needs_to_be_done_to_contr.php
Here are some others:
http://www.complex.com/ENTERTAINMENT/FEATURES/Sports-Riots-A-History-of-Violence
Europe is worse though, it’s true. This type of behaviour also happens everywhere from Buenos Aires to Beijing.
Nov 18, 2008 - 1:59 am 160. Mary Jackson:to call someone a liar or stupid when someone is expressing her view on what she has seen or feels is not what I would have expected from you.
She’s “expressing her view”? So what? Does that make it any less distorted, misleading or stupid?
Nov 18, 2008 - 3:05 am 161. David H:Mary, I was just surprised at the level of your reaction, from reading your writings I would have expected you to point out the error in the racism part, but agreed with the main thrust of the article. Anyway, yes the part on racism is misleading, it is distorted based on the level of attention given in the 70’s as compared to now, and if you take into account the fact that it diverted attention to the main thrust of the article then it was a stupid error, but calling the journalist herself stupid or implying that she see’s herself as me me me, nope.
Nov 18, 2008 - 7:33 am 162. L. Davis:I honestly don’t know what is happening to the world….standards of what is right are dismissed by progressives as irrelevant on the basis of relativity. The Judeo/Christian beliefs that established western cultures such as the US and Britain are mocked by our own institutions, including some of our churches. Value of human life is no longer valid, patriotism is laughed at and the educational systems are teaching anarchy. People like Ayers are made full Professors, ex-Governors who have disgraced themselves and their families are emboldened enough to step back into the public spotlight and claim they’re actually heroes. Instead of teaching people that race doesn’t matter, we teach them that ‘diversity’ and special privilege is in order.
My family came from Scotland and Ireland. I have always been proud of that fact, and regardless of the ‘anti-American’ attitudes that I’ve seen while visiting Great Britain, still clung to the belief that it was a great country and represented much of the good in the world. I’m am deeply saddened to read this article because it seems that things are even worse there than they are here.
I will pray that this evil that seems to be taking over all cultures is rejected by our children. Sadly, the church I used to pray in is no longer a welcoming place for me …. The Episcopal Church. It has rejected the same values and morality that the BBC apparently has done. The Church of England also seems to be driving people away with the same modern approach to their version of religion. No wonder no one goes to church.
I will no doubt be called by some an right-wing evangical… a term I’ve yet to have anyone fully define. But I have deep respect for most religions of the world and am reminded of this quote:
“The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; “pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and worship without sacrifice.”
Nov 18, 2008 - 7:56 am 163. Mary Jackson:Mahatma Gandhi
Mary, I was just surprised at the level of your reaction, from reading your writings I would have expected you to point out the error in the racism part, but agreed with the main thrust of the article.
I hold no brief for Ross and Brand – Theodore Dalrymple has written a blistering attack on these two and the culture that bred them. The difference is Dalrymple’s tone is measured and his arguments logical. He feels no need to tell outright lies to substantiate his point. (Ms Gould now knows what she said about football was a lie, and has still not corrected it.)What isn’t actually false is a hysterical distortion, plucking random incidents out of thin air.
This article is one in a series of bleating, self-indulgent, self-pitying rants. Others on her site string together all kinds of incidents, all anecdotal and none substantiated, which suggests that Britain is one massive conspiracy against Americans, against Jews and above all against Ms Gould. There is a strange mixture of self-pity, self-importance and self-promotion in it all.
Nov 18, 2008 - 8:33 am 164. David H:Mary, I know a number of Americans who have lived in Britain and they all have many stories of outright hostility towards them, so I cannot just dismiss it.
Nov 18, 2008 - 10:02 am 165. Mary Jackson:Mary, I know a number of Americans who have lived in Britain and they all have many stories of outright hostility towards them, so I cannot just dismiss it.
The big difference is that they, probably, were not making a living out of this perceived hostility. Carol Gould is – nearly every article she writes is a whinge about how badly done to she is. And yet, after thirty-two whole years, she is still here. Presumably the ones you knew either went back home if they thought it was really that bad, or, if they stayed, decided it wasn’t really that bad.
So I can just dismiss it.
Nov 18, 2008 - 11:15 am 166. James Westlake:David H,
“Mary, I know a number of Americans who have lived in Britain and they all have many stories of outright hostility towards them, so I cannot just dismiss it”
If any of your friends where to venture once more across the pond to grace this, apparently, ’septic isle’ they may find a much warmer reception post-Nov 4. It is important to remember that in the aftermath 9-11 America enjoyed such popular international support probably not paralleled since the end of the Second World War evidenced for instance by popular demonstrations in Tehran, of all all places, and the famous ‘We are all Americans now” headline in Le Monde. That the power America possessed in such a climate of almost universal goodwill was so wilfully squandered by the aggressive incompetence the Bush/Cheyney regime, up to the point where many Americans felt so ashamed of their governments actions that they’d feign Canadian citizenship when overseas, is a tragic legacy that can now begin to be addressed. With the outpouring of joy witnessed not only throughout the United States but the entire world, with the stars and stripes being proudly flown proudly from Rio to Nairobi, Istanbul to Tokyo, we can see that so much of the so-called ‘anti-Americanism’ was merely contempt and loathing for the then incumbent regime.
shalom
Westlake
Nov 18, 2008 - 2:21 pm 167. James Westlake:L.Davis,
“.standards of what is right are dismissed by progressives as irrelevant on the basis of relativity.”
can you provide any examples of this?
“The Judeo/Christian beliefs that established western cultures (…) are mocked by our own institutions, including some of our churches.”
Or this?
btw:
“… right-wing evangical… a term I’ve yet to have anyone fully define.”
right wing: politically conservative and/or reactionary
Evangelical: a form of Protestantism defined by fervent proselytising and a tendency to take Biblical scripture as literal truth.
hope that helps
Westalke
Nov 18, 2008 - 3:29 pm 168. David H:And with the appearence of the Obama messiah, Al Queda lay down their arms and declared undying love for the USA, keep on with your fantasy I have not laughed so much for ages.
The comment that we are all Americans now was because the buildings were known as the World Trade Centre and many nations lost people in the attacks. While in Iran many of the normal people are rather pro-Amercian.
You really are quite pathetic…
Nov 19, 2008 - 4:57 am 169. James Westlake:David H,
“The comment that we are all Americans now was because the buildings were known as the World Trade Centre and many nations lost people in the attacks. While in Iran many of the normal people are rather pro-Amercian.”
Of Course but the point was also that western values themselves, as personified by America, where being attacked not just the WTC itself and that the world must unite in the face of this threat.
“You really are quite pathetic…”
I am not quite sure why you feel the need to be insulting as you appear to agree with me???
peace
Westlake
Nov 19, 2008 - 6:09 am 170. David H:“was so wilfully squandered by the aggressive incompetence the Bush/Cheyney regime”
That is why I called you pathetic, now take the use of the word regime, how on earth can you talk to me about Western values when you declare an elected government a regime is beyond belief, its pathetic.
Nov 19, 2008 - 9:56 am 171. James Westlake:David H,
“how on earth can you talk to me about Western values when you declare an elected government a regime”
‘Regime’ simply means government or prevailing system in power. Hence on in January the 20th a new regime will be taking over at the White House. If you are unsure of the meanings of certain words I suggest you check a dictionary next time if want to avoid looking stupid.
westlake
Nov 19, 2008 - 4:31 pm 172. David H:LOL, trying to wiggle out of that one was priceless, and still pathetic, I would suggest that your intelligent enough to understand the nagative meaning behind the use of regime, and my final question has to be what happened to the peace bit, did the mask slip a bit.
Nov 20, 2008 - 1:31 am 173. James Westlake:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/regime
Nov 20, 2008 - 2:24 am 174. David H:Should I perhaps mention context?
Nov 20, 2008 - 4:41 am 175. Liebherr:Liebherr
Mar 5, 2009 - 12:44 pmGood interpretation, but I think hardly could be apllied to life.
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