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Dissecting Obama’s School Record
Murky documentation from an Indonesian school shouldn't justify rumors about the candidate's citizenship or religion.
Who are you, Barack?
I’ve found myself in the rather unlikely role of defending Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama during the past few days.
I’ve done so not out of any sense of loyalty to Obama — as anyone familiar with my blog or my work at Pajamas Media or the New York Post will attest — but out of pure curiosity about the many rumors swirling around the man who would be president.
One of the rumors I was able to personally debunk was that Obama never registered for the Selective Service, which would theoretically make him ineligible for executive branch jobs, including the presidency. As I’ve confirmed his registration and have even published his registration number via direct communications with the Selective Service, that particular rumor should be considered quashed for any reasonable person. Of course, “reason” and “politics” are all too often strangers, and so the comments thread of that article was quickly inundated with those enthusiastic people I’ll dub members of the Obama Truth Movement (hereafter, OTM).
The OTM quickly assailed my belief that Obama’s “proven birth in Hawaii” and his U.S. citizenship is legitimate, and many hold the belief that a copy of Obama’s certificate of live birth (COLB) is a fake. Sadly, this is a belief unlikely to ever be resolved to the satisfaction of the OTM, as the Obama campaign has already posted a copy of the COLB on the campaign website and is unlikely to address it again.
Pajamas Media attempted to have the Hawaiian Department of Health (DOH) verify that the information publicly released in the COLB on the Obama site was accurate, making the argument that a public display of the document was in essence “disclosed by a public figure in a public venue for examination.” Janice Okubo, director of communications for the DOH, responded in an email message this morning:
Our attorney general advised us that Hawaii state law prohibits the Dept. of Health from verifying information contained in a vital record for anyone without a tangible interest. If Sen. Obama or his official representative requests a public verification that can be legally provided. Practically speaking, I believe that only the individual posting a document on a website can verify its authenticity.
The Hawaiian government can only release Obama’s birth records upon Obama’s request, and Obama won’t. Though they have twice been contacted by Pajamas Media regarding these allegations over the past month — and no doubt by other journalists and bloggers — the campaign has thus far refused to release the DOH from its obligation. This in no way means the document is inauthentic. It simply means that if Obama’s enemies are barking up the wrong proverbial tree, his campaign will not dissuade them from wasting time and resources.
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Bob Owens blogs at Confederate Yankee.
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123 Comments
1. sisterrosetta:“perhaps Obama can be fairly accused of misrepresenting himself”
Why Bob Owens is carrying Barack Obama’s water is beyond me.
“Barack Obama lied to the Illinois Supreme Court” From Cao’s Blog (”Terrible Lie”)
http://rosettasister.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/%e2%80%9cbarack-obama-lied-to-the-illinois-supreme-court%e2%80%9d-from-cao%e2%80%99s-blog-terrible-lie/
Aug 14, 2008 - 12:14 pm 2. Chaz:Why is the media afraid to report that the marxist leaning Bill Ayers is a friend of Obama?
Aug 14, 2008 - 12:53 pm 3. gy:A real Hawaiian COLB from 2007 has 300 diamonds on the left side of the security border. The Obama COLB image supposedly printed in 2007 and provided by his campaign only has 159 diamonds on the left side.
It doesn’t matter what graphics format is used or how a document was scanned, you can’t make diamonds appear/disappear without manipulating an image.
Has this discrepancy been explained anywhere? We need evidence of other HI COLBs from 2007 that have the same security border as Obama’s. Otherwise we have to conclude that the Obama COLB image is not real.
Aug 14, 2008 - 12:55 pm 4. The Wizard:Obama is an empty suit, a fraud, a sycophant and a charlatan. Why anyone would vote for him is beyond comprehension. He cannot speak without a teleprompter. He has no policies that last for more than 24 hours without correction. He is a racist. He does not believe in America or our capitalist system….he will fight to turn the USA into liberal socialist country; our freedoms, our democracy and liberty will be gone. Be afraid, very, very afraid of this man.
Aug 14, 2008 - 1:10 pm 5. se:One of the rumors I was able to personally debunk was that Obama never registered for the Selective Service, which would theoretically make him ineligible for executive branch jobs, including the presidency.
That’s incorrect.
The only qualifications for holding the office of President are laid out in Article II of the Constitution. Thirty-five, natural born, 14 years residence. That’s it.
In order for failing to register for Selective Service to disqualify one from holding the office of President would be through a Constitutional amendment.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 1:26 pm 6. se:A real Hawaiian COLB from 2007 has 300 diamonds on the left side of the security border. The Obama COLB image supposedly printed in 2007 and provided by his campaign only has 159 diamonds on the left side.
Could you please point me to this 2007 COLB? Was it printed before or after June 6, 2007?
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 1:29 pm 7. bill-tb:The drive by media is ‘edwards-ing’ Obama facts … These are no cost things, almost no effort. So why not just fork it over to the public.
The public has a right to know who they are electing.
Aug 14, 2008 - 1:40 pm 8. se:The public has a right to know who they are electing.
They have a right to ask. They don’t have a right to an answer.
If one’s questions aren’t answered, or aren’t answered to one’s satisfaction, then one simply doesn’t vote for that candidate.
Pretty neat how that works, isn’t it?
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 1:50 pm 9. bill-tb:The public has a right to know … It’s the drive by media who is performing the ‘edwards-ing’ for Obama facts. I notice Obambi doesn’t like to be interviewed by anyone but his anointed special press agents, why is that I wonder.
Pretty neat how ‘edwards-ing’ works.
I noticed the drive by media was quick to jump on the issue of ‘McCain is not qualified because he was born on Panama’. What’s changed? Simple it’s the favorite son of the drive by media that is now being questioned.
Pretty neat how ‘edwards-ing’ works, don’t you think. And they wonder why the drive by DNC parrot is nosing over on a death spiral.
The polls tell the tale, the voters are saying no Obambi … Just not qualified for anything but street activist.
Aug 14, 2008 - 2:05 pm 10. ManekiNeko:Whether his adopted father made him an Indonesian citizen when he was a child is not relevant. But if he still has dual citizenship, it is relevant.
Whether his adopted father registered him for school as a Muslim and sent him to madrassa when he was 5 isn’t relevant. But lying to cover it up is.
Attorneys are supposed to be of “good moral character” (really!). Other names are a basis of doing a background check for, say, prior arrests. So this is relevant.
Aug 14, 2008 - 2:05 pm 11. Zhombre:Obama loses my vote because he is a liberal Democrat and I ceased to be one several years ago; because he has no legislative achievements or executive experience to speak of; and because charisma and oratory is not substance and no substitute for what he lacks. That he had a father from Kenya, whom he never knew but later, in my opinion foolishly, idealized; and had an Indonesian stepfather who was a nominal Muslim; and that Obama may have studied the Koran and gone to a mosque as a child, are not facts relevant to how I will vote.
Aug 14, 2008 - 2:17 pm 12. se:It’s the drive by media who is performing the ‘edwards-ing’ for Obama facts.
And what “-ing” was the media performing a few weeks ago, before the Edwards issue erupted for the media to have been able to perform any “Edwards-ing”?
You know, back when Obama’s certificate was declared a forgery. When it was claimed that his sister’s name was hidden in the image. Etc.
TexasDarlin reveals nothing that hadn’t already been revealed by “the media” over a year ago.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 2:32 pm 13. se:Attorneys are supposed to be of “good moral character” (really!). Other names are a basis of doing a background check for, say, prior arrests. So this is relevant.
Uh, did you bother to actually read Bob Owens’ post? He clearly shows that the “Full Former name(s)” on the form has absolutely nothing to do with any names one may have used as a child or prior to having been admitted to the Bar.
Here, read this carefully:
A lawyer’s name on the Clerk’s roll of attorneys is the name under which the lawyer was admitted to the practice of law in Illinois or, if any name changes have been allowed by the Court, the most recent such change.
In other words, it is only referring to any former names used since having been admitted to the Bar.
For example, if a woman had been admitted to the Bar when she was single, she would have registered with her maiden name. If she subsequently marries, and takes on her husband’s name, she would register using her married name and her maiden name would appear under “Full Former name(s).”
Do you get it now?
TexasDarlin is just feeding people a misrepresentation borne of ignorance and laziness.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 2:48 pm 14. Doc Savage:As they say at the Olympics, “sklew yew”, Paddy O’Bama, you [bleep]ing chameleon.
Aug 14, 2008 - 3:39 pm 15. Herr Morgenholz:The public has a right to know who they are electing.
They have a right to ask. They don’t have a right to an answer.
Like hell. Of course we have a right to an answer.
Aug 14, 2008 - 3:54 pm 16. Brad:Se,
The MSM knew about Edwards but chose not to report it (unlike the NYT with McCain and a false affair story). That Edwards admits it’s true is suddenly the news to a media that knew or could have easily known if they bothered to sniff a little says what? It says they run cover for those they like. “Edwards-ing” means not disclosing that which will hurt the one for whom you cheerlead. This kind of thing isn’t really news to a lot of us, but the MSM’s increasingly thin veil of cover from exposure for the hacks the majority of them are is tearing. Look at polls recently that show a majority believe media wants Obama elected; look at the dropping revenues of newspapers, the fading relevence of the networks, Dan Rather. Not pretty.
Aug 14, 2008 - 3:58 pm 17. misanthropicus:Owens, you’re into the Barry Soetoro hologram, too:
Owens states:
1) “[...] the campaign has thus far refused to release the DOH from its obligation.
2) This in no way means the document is inauthentic.
3) It simply means that if Obama’s enemies are barking up the wrong proverbial tree, his campaign will not dissuade them from wasting time and resources. [...]”
Question to Owens: since the damage generated by the rumors concerning the unavailability of the document in cause greatly exceed the expenses of having the document made available for public scrutiny and so put the matter to rest, why the Obamatons take the irratioality path and have more and more of this besieging them? Remember, the end of this is not even in sight!
Aug 14, 2008 - 4:14 pm 18. cubanbob:Explain the rationality of a very self-destructive position – ’till then, review my post “Si non e vero e ben trovato” regarding Soetoro’s Selective Service registration.
While I think this whole citizenship fracas is rather dubious,even the democrts can’t possibly be that stupid to nominate a legally unqualified candidate, nevertheless it is telling that Obama won’t put this to rest by simply making public his birth certificate. Just like Kerry never disclosing his discharge form. Why hide if there is nothing there? Actually Obama and Kerry is a dream ticket from the republican point of view:
2 shifty,sneaky,prevaricating, unaccomplished anti-American zeros running for the the top jobs.
The Afirmative Action Man and The Gigolo. A democratic dream ticket if ever there was one for the “reality based community” and as close to a wet dream the republicans can ever dare hope for.
By the way SE, there is no constitutional requirement for candidates to reveal their tax returns or income information or their divorce records either. Its only a problem when it invovles republicans.
Aug 14, 2008 - 4:17 pm 19. sisterrosetta:“Doth the candidate protest too much here?”
“AP photo of school register reveals “Barry Soetoro” as muslim Indonesian”
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13056.htm
EXCERPT
The listing of Barry Soetoro as a Muslim contradicts what appears on his campaign’s Fight the Smears website, where he says that “I have never been a Muslim.” In a private meeting with Jewish leaders in February, Obama emphatically re-stated the claim, but with a bit of a twist. He said: “I am not, nor have I ever been, a Muslim (especially an anti-American one).”
Doth the candidate protest too much here? Indeed, he is parrotting the language used in the 1950s by those who denied Communist ties. No one is claiming, here, that Obama is anti-American. But the image of his school registration doesn’t lie, and indicates clearly that he was registered as a Muslim, and thus, despite the claim of his spokesman, he didn’t study the catechism. Barry Soetoro studied the Koran.
Aug 14, 2008 - 4:27 pm 20. se:Like hell. Of course we have a right to an answer.
Don’t know where you get such a notion, but oh well.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 4:53 pm 21. se:“Edwards-ing” means not disclosing that which will hurt the one for whom you cheerlead.
Ah. Gotcha. Thanks.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 4:56 pm 22. se:Question to Owens: since the damage generated by the rumors concerning the unavailability of the document in cause greatly exceed the expenses of having the document made available for public scrutiny and so put the matter to rest, why the Obamatons take the irratioality path and have more and more of this besieging them?
I know I’m not Owens, but just what “damage” do you mean? Most all of those demanding to see the document are those who’d never vote for Obama even if he were to make the document available. And those pushing the issue are just preaching to their own choirs. So I don’t see any damage being done here.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:05 pm 23. se:By the way SE, there is no constitutional requirement for candidates to reveal their tax returns or income information or their divorce records either. Its only a problem when it invovles republicans.
My point stands whether Democrat, Republican or anyone else. You have the right to ask, but don’t have the right to an answer.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:07 pm 24. News:My point stands whether Democrat, Republican or anyone else. You have the right to ask, but don’t have the right to an answer.
se
Aug 14, 2008 – 5:07 pm
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:43 pm 25. AdrianS:**************
You are completely off-base here. Any candidate is obligated to answer all questions revelant to meeting the constitutional requirements for the office he/she is seeking.
Yahoo! News dated August 14, 2008:
“Obama has acknowledged using marijuana and cocaine as a teenager…”
also:
[Jerome] Corsi [in his anti-Obama #1 best seller] “makes an issue of the fact that, before he quit smoking cigarettes, Obama didn’t want it widely known that he smoked. ‘If Obama takes pains to hide his smoking from us, what else does he take pains to hide?’ Corsi asks in the book.”
On another website (No Quarter blog):
View first hand a photo of a school registration form:
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/14/breaking-photo-documents-barry-soetoro-indonesian-citizen-muslim-religion-updated-x-2/
Obama is registered as a Muslim. But he says, “I have never been a Muslim.” Oh, yeah?
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:44 pm 26. se:You are completely off-base here. Any candidate is obligated to answer all questions revelant to meeting the constitutional requirements for the office he/she is seeking.
Not any questions asked by you or me they aren’t.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:51 pm 27. BloodingtheEars:These rumors will not hurt obama not no way not no how.
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:56 pm 28. se:Yahoo! News dated August 14, 2008:
“Obama has acknowledged using marijuana and cocaine as a teenager…”
Yahoo! News is just a few years behind the curve here. Obama had already admitted to this in his book, Dreams From My Father.
But go ahead and pass that on to TexasDarlin. I’m sure she’d love to have another *BREAKING* story of years old news.
Obama is registered as a Muslim. But he says, “I have never been a Muslim.” Oh, yeah?
Yeah. There’s rather a difference between what religion YOU are and what religion someone else tacks on to you as a six-year-old child.
The notion that a six-year-old child can be of any religion in any meaningful way is just absurd.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 5:59 pm 29. sisterrosetta:http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/breaking-photo-documents-barry-soetoro-indonesian/
• elliewyatt // August 14, 2008 at 8:08 pm
truthmonger~
You said, “I do hope it’s not based solely on a 45-year-old school form from Indonesia, which for all we know now could have been falsified to grease the school wheels. Surely we have a more credible source?”
You make an excellent point.
This old document is about the only documentation we have on “Obama”.
We do not have his records from Occidental.
We don not have any records from Columbia.
We do not have his thesis.
We do not have Harvard records.
We do not have his medical records.
We do not have any article he published for the Harvard Law Review as its president.
We have no scholarly article written while at University of Chicago.
We do not have his Selective Service record.
We do not have an original Birth record.
We do not have a signed embossed paper Certification of Live Birth.
We do not have his State Senate Papers.
We have no list of his law clients.
We do not have his State Senate Schedule book.
You are right. All we have is an official entry from his school stating that he was an Indonesian citizen and Muslim.
That’s all we have.
Would you like to see some of those other documents?
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:03 pm 30. sisterrosetta:You said, “I do hope it’s not based solely on a 45-year-old school form from Indonesia, which for all we know now could have been falsified to grease the school wheels. Surely we have a more credible source?”
You make an excellent point.
This old document is about the only documentation we have on “Obama”.
We do not have his records from Occidental.
We don not have any records from Columbia.
We do not have his thesis.
We do not have Harvard records.
We do not have his medical records.
We do not have any article he published for the Harvard Law Review as its president.
We have no scholarly article written while at University of Chicago.
We do not have his Selective Service record.
We do not have an original Birth record.
We do not have a signed embossed paper Certification of Live Birth.
We do not have his State Senate Papers.
We have no list of his law clients.
We do not have his State Senate Schedule book.
You are right. All we have is an official entry from his school stating that he was an Indonesian citizen and Muslim.
That’s all we have.
Would you like to see some of those other documents?
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:04 pm 31. misanthropicus:RE: se: “I know I’m not Owens, but just what “damage” do you mean? Most all of those demanding to see the document are those who’d never vote for Obama even if he were to make the document available. And those pushing the issue are just preaching to their own choirs. So I don’t see any damage being done here.”
se, drop by drop the water in the glass overflows, one too many straws breaks the camel’s back. True, there is some preaching for the converted ones in this situation, but there is also DAMAGE and DEMORALIZATION on the other side. Also, there is something called CREDIBILITY – you hear of one problem, then about another one, then… tell you Gretchen I ain’t vote for this dude, too many thistles on his Armani.
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:05 pm 32. Scrapiron:Dent by dent, ding by ding – trust me, it works.
Democrats backed and lied for:
Hanoi John Kerry, It was been proven court house tight that he was/is a liar.
John Silky Edwards, It has been proven to the world that he is a lying sleeze ball.
B Hussein O, Is a muslem, depends on what you define as an Islamist, he was and according to Islamic law an Islamist. He stated he will support Muslems over all others. His words in writing. He is a known liar of the highest order.
Where do the democrats find these lying sleeze bags? Are there no ‘normal’ people in the entire democrat party?
“…I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.” B Hussein Obama,
page 261 of his book, Audacity of Hope…
Read his other rantings and you’ll find he hates all who are not his color/religion (half white/half Arab and Islamic), including the white half of his own family. The Revrund Wright wasn’t the only racist and America hater in the church. Hussein O’s family was right at home. Not one person sat in that racist church for over 5 minutes that didn’t agree 100% with the racist hate spewed around the room.
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:08 pm 33. se:True, there is some preaching for the converted ones in this situation, but there is also DAMAGE and DEMORALIZATION on the other side.
If you say so. So far it hasn’t made it out of the fever swamps so I don’t see where the DAMAGE and DEMORALIZATION comes from. The other side’s likely just rolling their eyes and making jack-off motions.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:11 pm 34. sisterrosetta:se = Devil’s Advocate
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:22 pm 35. se:sisterrosetta = Can only parrot, cannot present an argument.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 6:39 pm 36. misanthropicus:se:
RE: Se: “If you say so. So far it hasn’t made it out of the fever swamps so I don’t see where the DAMAGE and DEMORALIZATION comes from. The other side’s likely just rolling their eyes and making jack-off motions.”
The best is yet to come… bye.
Aug 14, 2008 - 7:04 pm 37. misanthropicus:RE: sisterrosetta: “We do not have… “N” times…
Aug 14, 2008 - 7:08 pm 38. Burt:True, but we the “As I said several times, I…” introduction after which always comes a lie. Still, something…
Boy, Bob Owen that was some sad spinning for the Obama camp. Your lame argument is that since Obama camp used a fake birth certifcate and the state government won’t comment on so it means the story should be ignored is pathetic . But your follow up defense that a Presidential candidate has intentionaly lied and mislead the public and the state goverment about there religous upbringing is mind boggling. Obama was raised as a Muslim and the Catholic school was notified in WRITING that he was not a Christian .
Aug 14, 2008 - 7:22 pm 39. se:As someone who went to Catholic schools knows the non catholics and non christians were sent to there place of worship in the afternoon and they did not participate in catholic classes. Those are the key years in anyones religious upbringing. So why does a Presidential candidate in a WAR against radical Islam terrorists LIE and HIDE about his ROOTS ! Brillant Bob Owens sees no problems with the lies and the cover up !
Your lame argument is that since Obama camp used a fake birth certifcate and the state government won’t comment on so it means the story should be ignored is pathetic .
So far no one has brought forth any compelling evidence that the certificate is fake.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 7:44 pm 40. Rap Group Seeks Publicity Through Death Wishes « The Autopsy:[...] is a Kenyan Muslim Soerto, [...]
Aug 14, 2008 - 7:49 pm 41. Jean:Does comment from the State Department,
“In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.”
apply to passive changes in status, or dual-citizenship with non-reciprocating states prior to the 1986 IRCA law? If you spoke to a consular representative or a State Department spokesperson, they may have provided the current law/policy – not the one that was in effect at the time.
The fact that these questions exist is a problem, whether or not they are material in the end. John McCain, went to the Congress and secured a bi-partisan resolution affirming his status as a constitutionally viable candidate, under a 1904 Law to address the rights of children born at OCONUS military stations, prior to campaigning. Barack Obama lacked either the judgment or the political will to force a bill through a Democratic Congress addressing his complex situation.
Unfortunately, a reasonable discussion of these circumstances has been hijacked by a fruitless pursuit of legitimacy for an image on the web, a few die-hard PUMAs, and Larry Johnson. So it will be dropped by those best to address it.
I would note, that in my limited research I could not find an explicit requirement for the presentation of proof-of-citizenship, age, or residency at the State or Federal level short of the Article III “certification” process conducted by the House under rules and procedures set by the House. So, it may be possible for someone to slip through – consider how the 14 year residency requirement could be interpreted – to see how messy this could get. It would be a shame if every election ends up in front of the Supreme Court.
Aug 14, 2008 - 8:13 pm 42. bc:Obama grossly mis characterized McCain’s comment that we may be in Iraq 100 years hence. And that’s fine. That’s politics, which McCain rightly says,”Ain’t bean bag”. So spare me the pontification about what’s valid, or invalid. If it works, i.e. it gets votes, use it. If it’s “over the top”, and preposterous, and can be tied to McCain as a smear, it will cost him votes. The reason “Swift boating” worked is that it was based on a kernel of truth, and Kerry stonewalled, and obfuscated, just as Obama is doing here. Obama can ignore this attack, or respond, but the attack as a strategy is totally “valid” as political strategy. If they could get McCain this way, they would, but nothing is sticking so far.
Aug 14, 2008 - 8:32 pm 43. RonT:US law from 1952 until 1986 required that, in the case of a child born with only one parent being a US citizen, that citizen parent must have lived in the US for at least 10 years, at least 5 of which had to be after the age of 16. Since BHO’s Mom was 18 at his birth, BHO fails the test of a “Natural Born Citizen”. BHO may have become a “Naturalized” US citizen at some later point (ala Schwartzenegger) but he is not qualified under the Constitution to hold the office of POTUS. Look it up at the INS website.
Indonesian law did not allow for dual citizenship until a few years ago. Barry Soetoro was an Indonesian citizen at the expense of being a US citizen. Again, he may have become a “Naturalized” US citizen at some point after he left Indonesia for Hawaii but the fact remains that he is not a “Natural Born” US citizen as required by the Constitution.
McCain qualifies as a “Natural Born” citizen as both of his parents were US citizens.
And to those of you who think that the Democrat Party has some sort of screening apparatus that requires picture ID to run for office – LMAO!
RonT
Aug 14, 2008 - 8:38 pm 44. Sam:Barack Obama is the culmination of a decade’s long effort to install a true radical in the White House. He is a stealth communist and represents a direct threat to the survival of the United States as we know it and probably all of Western Civilisation.
Aug 14, 2008 - 8:40 pm 45. John Samford:“Was Barack Obama a Muslim? Again, just because his stepfather allegedly wrote that in the blank does not necessarily mean that he was”
Strawman alert!
Aug 14, 2008 - 8:41 pm 46. se:What his stepfather wrote anywhere has NOTHING to do with the issue.
According to the Islamic religion and Islamic law, if your father was a Muslim, you are a Muslim. No exceptions, no choice, no nuttin as we say down south.
Now if Obama wants to deny he is a muslim, that is his business. Under islamic law that doesn’t mean he is not a muslim. It means he is an apostate Muslim. The penalty for that is death.
Islam is not big on the concept of choice.
Now by western terms if Obama wants to say he is not a Muslim, that is his right. Under Islamic law he has no such right.
What is important here is what the Muslims think, since they are the ones that care. Few people here in the states care one way or the other. Those using the issue against him are using the fact that he is being dodgy about it, not the fact that he is a Muslim.
He could have put the entire issue to rest by simply stating that he was an apostate Muslim and that would have been that.
Which makes one wonder just why he didn’t. Might there be some reason he is hiding?
You remember Kerry and his DD214? The one that he was going to release to counter the Swift Boaters claims? If he had released it and it said what he claimed, the Swift Boaters would have been blown out of the water. Kerry would be President. He didn’t, which left anyone with an IQ greater then a flatworm thinking that he was hiding something and the Swift Boaters were correct.
Obama has put his self in the same hole.
If he doesn’t release them, it’s because he is hiding something. Trying to bluff his way past the issue didn’t work for Kerry and it won’t work for Ohhhhh…..BAAMA. No matter how many reporters are hunching his leg.
US law from 1952 until 1986 required that, in the case of a child born with only one parent being a US citizen, that citizen parent must have lived in the US for at least 10 years, at least 5 of which had to be after the age of 16. Since BHO’s Mom was 18 at his birth, BHO fails the test of a “Natural Born Citizen”.
This myth was debunked weeks ago.
This law only applies if he were born outside the US. If he were born in the US, any citizenship on his parent’s part would be irrelevant.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:05 pm 47. se:The reason “Swift boating” worked is that it was based on a kernel of truth, and Kerry stonewalled, and obfuscated, just as Obama is doing here.
But there’s a difference here.
The swiftboating stuff was all over the broader media.
So far no one’s been able to get even minor league talk radio hosts interested in this stuff. It just bounces back and forth among a handful of blogs that no one to speak of takes seriously.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:11 pm 48. se:According to the Islamic religion and Islamic law, if your father was a Muslim, you are a Muslim. No exceptions, no choice, no nuttin as we say down south.
Absolute nonsense. One’s religion isn’t defined by what some twelfth century throwbacks believe it is or anyone else for that matter.
The same nutjobs say that the US is “The Great Satan.” So by your line of reasoning, the US must indeed be The Great Satan. No exceptions, no choice, no nuttin as you say down south.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:15 pm 49. ManekiNeko:Question 2A of the Illinois Bar Admission “Character and Fitness Questionaire” asks,
“Have you ever been known by any other first, middle, or last name?”
If you click “yes”, then you are asked to supply each name used, the dates used, and whether the name change was pursuant to court order.
This form is filled out before being admitted to the Illinois bar, so what Bob Owens says in his post about name changes after admission is not relevant to my point about prior names.
https://www.ibaby.org/browseform.action?formId=2
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:17 pm 50. Gregg Calkins:“The Hawaiian government can only release Obama’s birth records upon Obama’s request, and Obama won’t. Though they have twice been contacted by Pajamas Media regarding these allegations over the past month — and no doubt by other journalists and bloggers — the campaign has thus far refused to release the DOH from its obligation. This in no way means the document is inauthentic. It simply means that if Obama’s enemies are barking up the wrong proverbial tree, his campaign will not dissuade them from wasting time and resources.”
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:33 pm 51. se:———————————
An interesting statement, which would seem to fly in objection to the Obama camp’s avowed determination to fight back quickly and fight back hard, because, they said, John Kerry believed he had waited too long to defend himself against the Swift Boat attacks.
If so, not responding to the requests from Pajamas Media has to mean something more than merely being willing to let the attackers spin their wheels wasting time and resources. The Swifties managed okay.
Since I have personal knowledge of how a document like the COLB can be both accurate and misleading at the same time, I’d like to see the certificate signed by the attending physician, myself.
What else might it say? Well, in the case of which I have personal knowledge, it might reveal the marital status of the parents. Obama’s father was a Muslim who could have more than one wife, and reportedly already had one in Africa, which once again reportedly was a bone of contention between Obama’s parents.
The question then becomes not whether Obama was born in Hawaii, which seemingly he was, but the validity of his U.S. citizenship as a result of the fact that his parents marriage might not have been legal in the United States.
The question is: does Hillary know all of this and is waiting for just before the convention to quietly call the superdelegates and tell them of their problem? Democrats love to argue that no man is above the law, so does Obama have a legal problem here?
I don’t know what to think the truth is, myself, but I do think it is rather odd for Obama to let this one drag on when he could so easily solve it by releasing the DOH from its obligation. Just like Kerry could have released his military records, but didn’t. He still won’t. And he didn’t run again, either.
This form is filled out before being admitted to the Illinois bar, so what Bob Owens says in his post about name changes after admission is not relevant to my point about prior names.
If your point about prior names has to do with the “Full Former name(s)” field on the public record, then I don’t see that it is not relevant. I see nothing to indicate that this field is tied to 2A on the questionnaire.
However I’ll be happy to call the Illinois Bar tomorrow and get a clarification on it.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:36 pm 52. John Q.:“Indonesian law did not allow for dual citizenship until a few years ago. Barry Soetoro was an Indonesian citizen at the expense of being a US citizen. Again, he may have become a “Naturalized” US citizen at some point after he left Indonesia for Hawaii but the fact remains that he is not a “Natural Born” US citizen as required by the Constitution.”
Wrong. First, there’s no evidence that Obama was an Indonesian citizen. Second, the only way to lose your US citizenship is to renounce it. A six year old child can not renounce their citizenship. Whatever legal status Indonesia may have applied to Obama, he never lost or renounced his US citizenship. To say otherwise, is to continue to spread a lie that has no basis in fact.
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:38 pm 53. se:Ok. It turns out you’re talking about two different things here.
The link you cite is the law student questionnaire for applying for the Bar and is handled by the Illinois Board of Admissions.
The form cited as proof that Obama had lied about his past names is something completely different. That’s by way of the Illinois Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission, which uses its own registration form.
So there’s nothing tying the “Full Former name(s)” field in the IARDC registration information with question 2A on the Illinois Board of Admissions questionnaire.
se
Aug 14, 2008 - 9:50 pm 54. pseudotsuga:“Absolute nonsense. One’s religion isn’t defined by what some twelfth century throwbacks believe it is or anyone else for that matter.”
Aug 14, 2008 - 10:29 pm 55. Dave II:Unfortunately, this is not nonsense in the case of Islam. If you adhere to the tenets of Islam, you believe that one can not leave the faith. There are some Westernized Muslims who would be more tolerant, but most Muslims would have to abide by the tenets of the Imams and the Korans.
Thus, in the eyes of devout Muslims who know that he was born to a Muslim father, Obama is an apostate Muslim, with appropriate penalties.
Obama certainly is a Christian, as he chose the religion. But to a lot of people in the world he could only be considered an apostate Muslim, and if elected President, also the leader of the Great Satan. Those two things can’t be good if he were to try to negotiate (like he wants to) with radical Muslims.
Bob…You label us as “Obama Truth Movement” like that’s a “BAD” thing…like we’re all kooks of the same ilk as the “9/11 Truthers”…how sad!!
This is NOT some pseudo-government conspiracy we are all latching onto and cooking up…these are LEGITIMITE and so far UNANSWERED questions about someone who may become the POTUS.
If you think for ONE SECOND if these questions go unanswered for the duration of the campaign, and THEN Obama becomes President…that they will “magically” stop just because he is elected…then you are certainly deluding yourself and falling “into line” with all the other Obamatrons out there.
These will haunt him RIGHT INTO THE PRESIDENCY unless he answers them with documents he so far refuses to release…and you KNOW THE REASON he won’t:
IT WILL HURT HIS CHANCES of being elected if he comes clean about his past! Pure and simple!
Much better to ignore, obfuscate, deny, ridicule, and plunge ahead with the helping hand of a compliant media that won’t “rock the boat” or start looking under any rocks (which you KNOW they would for a Republican!) until AFTER the election. But, you wouldn’t be one of THEM, would you Bob?…Not HERE on PJM??????
Personally though…I don’t think they will remain unanswered through November…
…some of the biggest “October Surprises”(plural) are already in the hands of the RNC and they are just waiting for the right time.
I’d bet my house that (yes) still has equity in it, that we will see some of the biggest revelations in Presidential election HISTORY that will rock this election to its core come October!
Aug 14, 2008 - 11:00 pm 56. Dave II:“…a document of far less formality than a birth certificate, passport, adoption form, or citizenship papers.”
Okay, I actually agree here! Then let’s see these other documents you mention he so desperately wants to hide!
WHY aren’t YOU asking BOB????… instead of being a typical mainstream media pawn?
Aug 14, 2008 - 11:12 pm 57. Dave II:Se-”Most all of those demanding to see the document are those who’d never vote for Obama even if he were to make the document available. And those pushing the issue are just preaching to their own choirs. So I don’t see any damage being done here.”
Funny! OF COURSE you don’t see any “damage” being done…you won’t until the night of November 3rd!
And conversely…let’s say you are exactly right about EVERYTHING you’ve said here on this comment section…the question remains and will STILL remain:
WHY won’t he just release these documents (original BC, adoption papers, legal name change) if he has NOTHING to hide????????
I’m amazed at the simplicity of it all that still seems to confuse liberals.
Typical.
Aug 14, 2008 - 11:30 pm 58. se:Unfortunately, this is not nonsense in the case of Islam. If you adhere to the tenets of Islam, you believe that one can not leave the faith. There are some Westernized Muslims who would be more tolerant, but most Muslims would have to abide by the tenets of the Imams and the Korans.
Thus, in the eyes of devout Muslims who know that he was born to a Muslim father, Obama is an apostate Muslim, with appropriate penalties.
Obama certainly is a Christian, as he chose the religion. But to a lot of people in the world he could only be considered an apostate Muslim, and if elected President, also the leader of the Great Satan. Those two things can’t be good if he were to try to negotiate (like he wants to) with radical Muslims.
Well, as I said on another blog today, the day that this country chooses its president based on what some twelfth century throwbacks might think about it is the day it should just kick its rotting corpse into hole and throw some dirt on top because it’s over.
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 12:05 am 59. Rachel Peepers:Guys,
No one here has the slightest shred of evidence that Obama was ever anything other than Barack Obama, United States citizen.
And to aver that he, in any way, has something to hide regarding his citizenship, religion or selective service status is a sham of a scam of a travesty.
Didn’t Martin Luther King say, “The truth shall set you free.” Which is why the good Senator Obama is, was and always has been free to run for President of the United States. In point of fact, until someone proves Barack is obfuscating, you must assume he’s telling the truth under the innocent until proven guilty part of the rules of evidence that is a part of Federal jurisprudence.
Moreover, surely by now, if anything was askance or amiss about Barack Obama’s past, don’t you think either the mainstream media or a cable news outlet, or Matt Drudge or even the National Enquirer would have alerted the public to the true facts? Of course they would have. It would be a huge story.
In the case of your rabid Republicans who see a bogeyman behind every tree, I think it’s time they accepted reality. And saw a great opportunity for change.
Barack is running for President. He’s winning. Instead of fighting it, embrace it.
If you’re anything like me, you just can’t wait for the Democrats to put through the “Fairness Doctrine” so the conservative airwaves and hopefully right wing internet blogs will be silenced forever. The beautiful Michelle is convinced that much of their criticism of Barack borders on treason. At the least, it’s not based on reason.
Friends, when all is said and done, by rehashing old concerns that have been vetted and laid to rest by the Obama election committee, you Republicans are visiting an injustice on the entire electoral process, in some cases placing significant doubt about Barack in the minds of the less informed, less educated voters.
If you simply trust this man, Barack Obama, to change the future of this country, making it a better place for your children to grow up, raise families and reap the rewards of living in the greatest country on the face of the earth, I think you’ll all feel a whole lot better.
So, one and all, take a deep collective breath. Stop fearing Barack. Starting letting him come into your life, and inspire you. He has powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Barack Obama represents change that even infidels can believe in.
Alas, though, I sense that some out there are still not convinced.
If that’s the case, please just think about it. Consider what I’ve said. Maybe sleep on it. I bet you’ll wake up tomorrow morning bright eyed and bushy tailed, with a wondrous positive new attitude. Ready for change. Confident you can take on the world.
Aug 15, 2008 - 12:39 am 60. AP Photo: Obama Was Registered as Muslim Citizen of Indonesia with Different Name | The American Pundit:[...] Owens, a smart individual best known for his blog Confederate Yankee, attempts to debunk the claim here. Unfortunately, the best he can do is conclude that just because Obama’s stepfather wrote [...]
Aug 15, 2008 - 1:32 am 61. john mirse:Some people argue that Soetoro senior may have lied when he filled out the Indonesiam school application by writing that
Barry Soetoro’s religion was Islam and that Barry was a citizen of Indonesia.
Think about this scenario:
1. Barry was a student at the Catholic school for about 3 years.
2. By Indonesian law, student had to choose what religion to study. I believe the list included Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestant.
3. Barry had Islam on his application, which meant that he studied Islam several times a week as his religion of choice for the three years he was at the Catholic school.
4. Let’s suppose that during those 3 years, someone get suspicious about Barry’s choice of religion as Islam. That is, the person believed that Barry was really a Christian pretending to be a Muslim.
5. The person reported his doubts to the Indonesiam military and to Islamic officials.
6. Remember, Soetoro senior worked for the military and was a
Muslim.
7. As I understand it, Indonesian Muslims take their Islam religion very seriously, and a person accused of breaking or insulting Muslim law could be in a lot of trouble.
8. Also, if the person accused of breaking Islam law happened to be in the military in a country run by the military, then that person could be in very deep trouble indeed.
9. The Barry school document: While the school document may not be official by United States law standards in a United States court of law, imagine
if the school application is presented in an Islamic court of law as proof that Soetoro senior lied about
Barry’s religion being Islam and about Barry being
an Indonesian citizen.
10. My point is this: Soetoro might be risking a lot of things by lying on Barry’s school application in Muslim country Indonesia:
a. He could risk serious bodily injury, or worse.
b. He could lose his job in the military.
c. His new wife and Barry could be deported immediately because they were discovered not to be Indonesian citizens.
11. So, I believe that Soetoro would have been entering very dangerous waters if he tried to lie his way through Islamic law, because Islamic law can punish someone very seriously if that someone appears to insult Islamic law.
12. Thus, I don’t believe that Soetoro would have risked his life and his job in the Indonesian army by lying on Barry’s school application: He wrote that
Barry’s religion was Islam and that Barry was an Indonesian citizen.
13. Again, if Soetoro senior ever had to go before
an Islamic law court to answer questions about the
truthfulness of Barry’s school application, and Soetoro admitted that he lied— Barry’s religion was not Islam because he was a Christian, and Barry was not a Indonesian citizen— then I shudder to think what severe punishment Soetoro would have received under Islamic law.
14. Does anyone here really believe that Soetoro senior would lie on Barry’s elementary school application around 1968 knowing full well about the severe Indonesian Islamic punishment he would receive if he was ever caught? I don’t think so.
Aug 15, 2008 - 1:56 am 62. Philip:You’re all barking up the wrong tree, law or the constitution have nothing to do with him getting to be president. The only thing that matters is if the senate and congress gives him the electoral votes and they are controlled by democrats. We are not governed by laws, we are governed by village elders.
Aug 15, 2008 - 5:09 am 63. George Clarke:Mr. Mirse,
Aug 15, 2008 - 5:26 am 64. Obama08:I don’t get your post. No one picks their religion freely until they are at least 18. Was Obama over 18 when his step father enrolled him as a Muslim in an Indonesian school? I don’t think so. Barack was a child and for the parent to select the child’s religion as being the same as the parent when the child is under 18 the statement is impossible to be a “lie.” If it turns out a decade or so later that the statement was false, and the adult child now elects a religion different from his parent, the statement by the parent does not become a “lie.” It becomes a piece of failed wish fulfillment. Of course the Muslim father wanted the son named B. Hussein to be a Muslim. Did the father ever forsee that this would not happen? I don’t know but I cannot see how someone who desires something with all their heart, and states it to be so, can be accused of lying when their heart’s desire does not materialize.
I am rather disappointed with the habit now rife of limiting our choices between peoples’ motivations between the unvarnished statement of the truth and an unvarnished lie. People say wrongheaded and false things all the time without lying, and they lie sometimes and accidently state the truth, so accuracy and honesty only have an incidental connection — not an inseparable identity. So clearly the false statement is not always a lie, and sometimes, or more often is honestly if mistakenly believed. This of course adds nothing to the issue, and some might say is off point, but I believe it is worth saying.
Bob owens, I disagree with you politically in every way possible and I dislike the way you wrote this article, but I have to admit you came to the right conclusion, despite it obviously being painful to you, because it goes against your ideological tendencies and your personal wishes.
You still chose to track truth, not rumor or wish. Too few people possess that quality, and I see it on my side of the political fence also.
Respect.
As for the rest of you, I can’t stop laughing at you people.
Obama will be the next president, all your fantasies about him notwithstanding.
Aug 15, 2008 - 5:49 am 65. paul a'barge:“Was Barack Obama a Muslim? Again, just because his stepfather allegedly wrote that in the blank does not necessarily mean that he was.”
You were going great guns until you spouted this.
I’m with the OTM on this one. If his father said he was a Muslim, then he most likely was a Muslim, and going all legal-like isn’t going to win the argument for me.
Why not just point out that the guy converted to Christianity anyway? At that point, are not all “he’s a Muslim” arguments moot?
Aug 15, 2008 - 6:00 am 66. Mondoreb:I have to agree with the author: wasting resources (and that includes website space) on this are better used to educate the important non-committed voters of the socialist background and views of Barack Obama.
Of course, if the OTM wants to go ahead and spend their own time and resources on the project, what can it hurt? Maybe they’ll turn up some solid documentation somewhere, somehow–stranger things have happened.
I don’t think in the least that Bob Owens is pro-Obama. I’ve been called the same by Larry Sinclair adherents, even though I’ve published 90+ anti-Obama posts in the last 3-4 months.
Oh well.
Good article.
Aug 15, 2008 - 6:11 am 67. Another View:Very simple.
The country is screwed up. The Republicans screwed it up. The Republican platform is not changing. Don’t vote for Obama for whatever reason you choose. Whether they are his politics or your ignorance. Flat out, partisanship aside he is the best man for the job. “Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face”.
Those afraid of the so called socialist agenda need to really get a grip. Our entire Gov’t is set up to prevent such things.
My concerns are- War, inflation, jobs, salaries, corruption, the undocumented, health care, taxes.
What do these frivolous other issues mean? Nothing. When your president you don’t turn into superman. Obama can’t single handily destroy America as you fear. Actually with all the extra scrutiny a Obama administration won’t get away with 10% of what the future felon administration did.
Aug 15, 2008 - 6:49 am 68. Keith_Indy:“I have to agree with the author: wasting resources (and that includes website space) on this are better used to educate the important non-committed voters of the socialist background and views of Barack Obama.”
+1 on this point.
There are plenty of things I find disagreeable about Barack Obama. Educating the public about his views and what he and the Democrats would likely do as President, is a much more fruitful line of attack then this bunk.
Aug 15, 2008 - 7:02 am 69. Never Yet Melted » “Obama’s School Registration is Real, So What?”:[...] Bob Owens, who blogs as Confederate Yankee, informs us that Jack Stokes, Associated Press manager of media relations confirmed the authenticity of the photograph of Barack Obama’s school registration in Indonesia. [...]
Aug 15, 2008 - 7:48 am 70. misanthropicus:RE: se/the Hussein Soetoro fissure:
[...] Your lame argument is that since Obama camp used a fake birth certifcate and the state government won’t comment on so it means the story should be ignored is pathetic . So far no one has brought forth any compelling evidence that the certificate is fake. [..]
Yo, se, Glibamatroll – save your ratiocinating and nuancing for something with more prospects than mister Soetoro’s bridge-building, early education. This story’s gotten legs & wings and for good reason – there is a solid fact behind it, that is, Glibama’s early name was SOETORO. Implications… mighty.
Aug 15, 2008 - 7:58 am 71. Cheat Seeking Missiles » Your Largely Lame Responses To My Invitation:With this in mind, you may also ask Michael Isakoff for an opinion about this matter – he can tell you a few things about how “edwardisation” works.
se, you’re vasting your time, really – the Hope’n Change dam’s gotten cracks that get larger day by day, the latest being the “Soetero fissure”. The dam will break eventually, my friend, so, stampede to the hills, my Obamatoms, nothing to do about this, and the November election.
[...] Get over it! You’re as boring and falsely fixated as 9/11 Truthers. Your questions will get us nowhere and I’m certainly not going to forward them to Pastor Rick – especially since I made it clear [...]
Aug 15, 2008 - 7:58 am 72. AdrianS:For the benefit of some who think Obama was too young to “have” a religion at age 7:
enculturation: the social process by which culture is learned and used by a human infant.
If it walks like a Muslim, talks like a Mulim … guess what. But the question is not was he or is he Muslim. The question is: Why is Obama lying about his enculturation?
Aug 15, 2008 - 8:03 am 73. jose:Doesn’t Texas Darlin’s post at least prove that Corsi was correct when he said that he was enrolled in this school as a Muslim?
Aug 15, 2008 - 8:09 am 74. Irrelevent nonsense debunked | Cold Fury:[...] out with virulently unapologetic terrorists and America-hating bigots of every disgusting stripe just isn’t enough for some people. Stooping to stupid, dishonest liberal tactics like this just isn’t helping, [...]
Aug 15, 2008 - 8:27 am 75. Ron:BHO is as fake and manufactured as they come, no need any obfuscation on his or the DNC’s part to see that he is. Nor a legitimate certificate of any sort too.
His broad inexperience, his very poor legislative record, his numerable gaffes, the agonizing stuttering as he tries to recall his many recent flips or flops on issues, his frequent episodes of amnesia when pressed to give a straightforward answer, his absent executive level experience and his appalling lack of judgment and choice in associates amongst other things – all these red flags plus a litany of others speak volumes more of the man than any certificate can.
He is a walking talking billboard for pretenders everywhere, it’s so plain to see.
The man himself knows he is out of his depth on so many matters hence the massive effort and political machine to sell him constantly on feel good mantras and intangibles like hope and change; and he knows his CV fits on a postal stamp so all he can bank on like most charlatans and swindlers are hopes that his audience are so gullible to elect or hire him on only his word.
Aug 15, 2008 - 8:49 am 76. Elonzo:Go to FactCheck.com and look at the high resolution of the purported Certificate of Live Birth.
Look 2 or 3 character widths NE of the word “SEX”. Looks like solvent nearly washed out the same word there.
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:07 am 77. Another View:The Stuttering is pretty bad. I was waiting for him to get it for that. And I must say I don’t think it’s a speech impediment.
He’s still the best for the job.
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:10 am 78. Elonzo:Correction: FactCheck is a .org not a .com
Google FactCheck Obama certificate
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:14 am 79. se:Go to FactCheck.com and look at the high resolution of the purported Certificate of Live Birth.
Look 2 or 3 character widths NE of the word “SEX”. Looks like solvent nearly washed out the same word there.
Oh please. You can find the same “noise” throughout the image, even in areas where there never would have been any printing.
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:16 am 80. se:For the benefit of some who think Obama was too young to “have” a religion at age 7:
enculturation: the social process by which culture is learned and used by a human infant.
If it walks like a Muslim, talks like a Mulim … guess what. But the question is not was he or is he Muslim. The question is: Why is Obama lying about his enculturation?
Well let’s see. There’s nothing to indicate that his mother had any particular religious beliefs at all. His father was a boozer (which apparently contributed to his death) so even if he considered himself a Muslim, he clearly wasn’t terribly devout. And the school he was registered at was run by Catholics.
Oh yeah. Obama was a real dyed in the wool Muslim, wasn’t he?
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:31 am 81. Harry S:@Another View,
Agreed no speech impediment. As Ron aptly put it he can’t recall where he stands on issues because he’s always changing them. Sign of an individual lacking true consistency and real decision making skills. Again this is the course he chose himself, if he was really honest with himself and the world he’d spare us all of his mythical persona, and state specifics – but you know that’s hard to do with little to no accomplishments.
Barry Barack whatever his name is, he’s unfit to lead and run krispy kreme franchise, let alone an entire nation.
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:45 am 82. Terry:One thing I’ve learned from reading comments on this issue:
If you demand transparency from a democrat, you’re a racist bigot and a gullible sucker of a conspiracy theorist.
If you demand transparency from a republican, you’re a responsible voter with intellectual integrity.
Aug 15, 2008 - 9:59 am 83. Terry:SE:
I’m not finding random words from noise throughout the document.
But I do see the word Elonzo sees near the identical word. Those are pretty long odds for “noise”.
Aug 15, 2008 - 10:09 am 84. misanthropicus:Re: se & Cie., countless posts:
You, collection of Glibamatrolls – you’ve been circling & croaking a lot PJM since the other post (the Selective Service matter). It seems that Owens’ shot also misfired – you just don’t want to answer a simple, basic & legitimate question regarding Glibama’s maoevering his bio (my post somewhere on this thread):
Since the damage generated by the rumors concerning the unavailability of the Obama document in cause greatly exceed the expenses of having the document made available for public scrutiny and would put the matter to rest, why the Obamatons take the irrationality path and prefer to have more and more of this besieging them? Remember, the end of this is not even in sight! Why? Why? Answer this!
Explain this – and if you say that the Great Opossum ain’t registered no damage in this matter (as ‘se’ tried to weasel out once, then why all this persuasion squad here and this relentless pressure in trying to bring people back to their senses? (i.e. to a ‘we’re the ones we we’ve been waiting for’ & MoveOn.Org state of mind).
Aug 15, 2008 - 10:16 am 85. Dave II:Rachel-
Great post full of sarcasm! You almost had me there!
I’m amazed at some of these arguements here though.
Sure, there is PLENTY to argue about against Obama on policy and his razor thin resume…but this background issue just won’t go away…and NOT because I don’t want him to be nominated. I DO!
Absolutely!
It’s because it points to issues of CHARACTER and JUDGEMENT in what he has done and, more precisely, NOT DONE to address these issues.
Throwing up a proven fake COLB on his website, like this will “suffice” the masses (at least until after the election) and then not doing ANYTHING to answer these charges or concerns PROVES he is not willing take them seriously, or that he is hiding something.
Either one shows a LACK of judgement, and a possible serious character flaw for attempting to hide his past.
There can be NO OTHER CONCLUSION…
It is just mind-boggling that so many want to accept his “word” on these issues (like he hasn’t broken that before!) as if that is “proof” that evrerything is just a-okay about him (okay, that and the media’s lack of investigating!) and we can all go our merry way “in-the-dark” about a possible POTUS.
Look, if you were an employer hiring for a TOP positionof a large company that needed security clearances, etc….a background check of the most DETAILED kind would be done on this person.
WHY are we as voters expected to settle for LESS when hiring the TOP LEADER of our country (who is responsible for OUR safety!) than would be done in the private sector????
It’s ridiculous in the extreme to expect any less and even more so when you find this “applicant” does not want to provide documentation to alleviate any concerns or questions!
Aug 15, 2008 - 10:29 am 86. se:I’m not finding random words from noise throughout the document.
But I do see the word Elonzo sees near the identical word. Those are pretty long odds for “noise”.
Then let’s see it.
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 10:54 am 87. se:Since the damage generated by the rumors concerning the unavailability of the Obama document in cause greatly exceed the expenses of having the document made available for public scrutiny and would put the matter to rest, why the Obamatons take the irrationality path and prefer to have more and more of this besieging them? Remember, the end of this is not even in sight! Why? Why? Answer this!
I’m not claiming to speak for anyone else. I’m simply saying that I don’t see that it’s doing any damage.
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 11:43 am 88. John Q.:“his numerable gaffes, the agonizing stuttering as he tries to recall his many recent flips or flops on issues, his frequent episodes of amnesia when pressed to give a straightforward answer, his absent executive level experience and his appalling lack of judgment and choice in associates amongst other things – all these red flags plus a litany of others speak volumes more of the man than any certificate can.”
Hey, you nailed McCain perfectly. Stuttering, flip-flopping, amnesia, lack of judgment, choice of associates – that covers McCain to “T”. Thanks for clarifying that for the rest of us.
Aug 15, 2008 - 2:11 pm 89. Mark:Here’s what I’m taking away thus far:
Around 95% of the world’s muslims will consider Obama a muslim. We are at war with a sizable number of muslims who will consider Obama a muslim. Why borrow trouble?
I’m concerned that he would even write, in “Dreams,” “…I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction” (cut and paste from above; my copy’s at home). Weird.
Substituted judgement test: If I were the presidential candidate and challenged my bona fides, would I produce appropriate birth certificates,documents, etc.? Of course. But Obama is not doing so. Uh oh.
Aug 15, 2008 - 2:35 pm 90. misanthropicus:RE: se & more posts:
Misanthropicus: Since the damage generated by the rumors concerning the unavailability of the Obama document in cause greatly exceed the expenses of having the document made available for public scrutiny and would put the matter to rest, why the Obamatons take the irrationality path and prefer to have more and more of this besieging them? Remember, the end of this is not even in sight! Why? Why? Answer this!
se: I’m not claiming to speak for anyone else. I’m simply saying that I don’t see that it’s doing any damage.
se, since there is no damage, why do you bother denying that Obama’s a Muslim? You and your cohorts have spent quite some time on Owen’s article thread trying to persuade everyone that BO’s not a Muslim!
Aug 15, 2008 - 2:48 pm 91. Dave ll:Why? Public service? Charity?
There is no damage man, who cares whether BO’s a Muslim or not, relax, wait for November. Hey – makes sense, doesn’t?
The Eight Questions Obama refuses to answer (link to the article below):
1. Are you now a U.S. citizen?
2. Have you ever held as a youth or adult, citizenship in another country?
3. Did you ever possess or travel using, at least in part, the passport of another country? (E.g., while in Indonesia, visiting Pakistan, Kenya)
4. Did you renounce any foreign citizenship, and when, and do you now hold solely U.S. citizenship today?
5. Can you confirm or deny your name change as a youth from Barack Hussein Obama II to Barry Soetoro when you were adopted by your step-father?
6. Did you legally reclaim your birth name? When and how?
7. Why did you not list your adopted name Barry Soetoro on any forms associated with your legal profession or others that ask for any other names you have ever used? Have you now or will you update these records?
8. And by the way, did you register with the U.S. Selective Service when you turned 18? (Okay, Bob Owens seems to have answered this last one for Obama…too bad he couldn’t do it himself! Why does he need OTHERS to dig out the facts on him that HE should be releasing himself???)
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/15/for-barack-obama-eight-questions/#more-4195
Aug 15, 2008 - 2:56 pm 92. se:Around 95% of the world’s muslims will consider Obama a muslim. We are at war with a sizable number of muslims who will consider Obama a muslim. Why borrow trouble?
Words escape me.
I’m sure that people can come up with plenty of reasons to not vote for Obama (he’s not getting my vote, but then no one else is either). But to not vote for someone in order to kowtow to a bunch of diseased religious fanatics who would like nothing more than to destroy this country?
The mind boggles.
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 3:41 pm 93. se:se, since there is no damage, why do you bother denying that Obama’s a Muslim?
Simply because I’ve seen no compelling evidence that he’s a Muslim in any meaningful sense of the word.
And why do you try to conflate the two issues?
You and your cohorts have spent quite some time on Owen’s article thread trying to persuade everyone that BO’s not a Muslim!
Why? Public service? Charity?
I have no cohorts. I speak only for myself. And I’m simply expressing my opinion that I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that Obama’s a Muslim and that the arguments given by those claiming his is are absurd.
Why are you expressing your opinoins? Public service? Charity?
There is no damage man, who cares whether BO’s a Muslim or not, relax, wait for November. Hey – makes sense, doesn’t?
Again, why do you try to conflate the two issues?
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 3:55 pm 94. Paula, IL:-> John Q
BHO has 1/1000th of McCain’s legislative experience politically speaking and of life in general. At this point in time Barry/Barack can only wish he had as much experience, or the other alternative is to exaggerate and as he’s often caught doing is to appropriate other people’s ideas, even legislative, as his own. That quote you printed cannot be mistaken for anyone else but Obama, to think otherwise shows serious flaws in your own judgment, but I guess that’s symptomatic of having a man-crush on a guy with zero credentials and soaring platitudes.
You’re way beyond half way point to accept the blazing obvious faults of Obama.
I personally was independent up until a few weeks ago, but I’ve seen, and studied enough about Barry/Barrack to know the cult of personality that surrounds him and draws people like yourself to him is beyond maniacal.
His audacity demands that Americans take him only at face value, to abandon common sense, to ignore all his weaknesses of which there are far too many to list here and vote in a leap of faith – for a Fraud. I’ve learnt in life that hiring amateurs and pseudo-professionals costs more always, not just the hip pocket – in many tangible ways. Scraping away at BHO’s flimsy veneer which is very easy to do may attract mindless reprisals from Obamabots, but as a citizen of this great country it’s the responsible thing to do.
Obamabots shouldn’t be so surprised when he’s criticized because he can’t or refuses to substantiate himself properly on so many issues.
Aug 15, 2008 - 7:58 pm 95. Karen:I don’t think being a Muslim at age 7 is relevant since he had no choice,
Aug 15, 2008 - 8:13 pm 96. john mirse:What is relevant is why a man who claims he will always tell the truth and be transparent in all he does, doesn’t just come out and explain the facts
and provide the documents. Republicans are claiming they have a copy of
a birth certificate with his name as Barry Sotero. Let’s assume this is true….what will it do to his credibilty. Link that to the fact that he launched his Senate career in the home of William Ayers. That he was chosen as President of the Board of the Annenberg Chicago Education Project by William Ayers. He also served with Ayers on the Woods Foundation Board.
You can’t have this much contact with someone and claim,”he is just some guy in my neighborhood” which Obama said in the ABC debate. He could have from the beginning come out and said what Mayor Daley said that he believes Ayers has changed his life around since the Weatherman Days and made a commitment to improving society and the Ayers that he meet and worked with was a dedicated community person. Instead he chose to lie. If you tell the truth, most people will appreciate that, but if you weave a web of lies to avoid the truth you are toast – ask John Edwards. On some website there is list of the lies Obama has told…..wait to see that scroll across your
television in a ad in November.
Mr. George Clarke:
This is mirse.
I’m sorry that I didn’t make myself clear in my original post above.
Let’s see if I can do a better job below.
1. To me, the issue is about adoption, not about a person’s religious faith.
2. The Barry information on the Indonesian school docuument presumably was provided by Soetoro senior when he originally enrolled Barry in the Catholic school.
3. The application says that the student was named Barry Soetoro.
4. It says that his religion was Islam.
5. Here is a key item: It says Barry is an Indonesian citizen.
6. Here is another key item: Parent is L. Soetoro.
7. The point I was trying to make in my original post was this:
1968 was a highly volatile and tense time in the Far East, with the Vietnam War going at a fever pitch and with Indonesia itself going through its own political, racial, and religious problems.
8. My question concerning Soetoro senior is this: In such very tense times in the Far East and Indonesia, would Soetoro lie on Barry’s Catholic school application—the first school that Barry attended in Indonesia—and take the chance of getting caught and suffering severe punishment—physical and emotional—under Islamic law?
9. I don’t think so.
10. So, to me, the school documents tell me that Soetoro adopted Barry.
I believe that Soetoro did so because Soetoro senior probably did not want to go through a lot of Indonesian red tape trying to bring a Christian step-son into Muslim Indonesia in the political tense times in Indonesia in 1968.
11. Remember, Soetoro had just married Barry’s mother, and it would seem reasonable to believe that Soetoro expected to live in Indonesia a long time with his new American wife and her son.
12. So, if Soetoro expected to live for a long time in Indonesia with his new American wife and her 5-6 year old son, then it would have been easier, in my opinion, for Soetoro to simply adopt the 5-6 year old before he moved his new family to Indonesia.
13. Again, if Soetoro did indeed adopt Barry, then Soetoro was not lying when he filled out the school application by saying that Barry’s religion was Islam; that Barry was an Indonesian citizen; and that Soetoro was Barry’s parent/father.
13. Adoption by Soetoro and the Presidency of the United States: If Soetoro did indeed adopt Barry—the Catholic school document seems to present strong evidence that he did, unless Soetoro lied on the original application—then Obama faces legal questions about his eligibility to be placed on the November 2008 presidential ballots.
14. Again, to me, the issue is not religion. Rather, the issue is whether or not Soetoro legally adopted Obama after Soetoro married Obama’s mother.
Aug 15, 2008 - 10:35 pm 97. se:What is relevant is why a man who claims he will always tell the truth and be transparent in all he does, doesn’t just come out and explain the facts
and provide the documents.
Come out and explain the facts and provide the documents to who exactly?
The only people clamoring for him to do so are those who have absolutely no intention of voting for him even if he did.
“I will be calling a national press conference today in order to explain the facts and provide documents to a bunch of people who have no intention of ever voting for me, and who none of you even knew existed until today.”
Are you kidding me?
Republicans are claiming they have a copy of
a birth certificate with his name as Barry Sotero. Let’s assume this is true….what will it do to his credibilty.
Can’t say exactly, but I’d guess that the vast majority of those who aren’t already dead set against him probably wouldn’t care to any degree.
Link that to the fact that he launched his Senate career in the home of William Ayers. That he was chosen as President of the Board of the Annenberg Chicago Education Project by William Ayers. He also served with Ayers on the Woods Foundation Board.
Far as I’m aware, none of this is any sort of secret. Why would it suddenly matter now?
You can’t have this much contact with someone and claim,”he is just some guy in my neighborhood” which Obama said in the ABC debate. He could have from the beginning come out and said what Mayor Daley said that he believes Ayers has changed his life around since the Weatherman Days and made a commitment to improving society and the Ayers that he meet and worked with was a dedicated community person. Instead he chose to lie.
And yet no one seems to have cared but those who would never have voted for him anyway.
On some website there is list of the lies Obama has told…..wait to see that scroll across your television in a ad in November.
No skin off my nose.
se
Aug 15, 2008 - 11:08 pm 98. Rachel Peepers:When it comes to Barack Obama, I’m sorry to say I have it on good authority, (my Dad) that the Democratic Party’s ship of state, the U.S.S. Messiah may be springing leaks; that the cruise to the White House, the Obama campaign boat,is apparently running into some choppy waters. We thought he could almost walk on water, now his campaign may be sinking.
To begin with, he’s been unable to quell the investigation into his Muslim background.
Actually, it doesn’t really bug me that he’s stonewalling the investigation into his admittedly Islamic religious roots.
It doesn’t even upset me that Barack can’t seem to set aside basic questions about his candidacy, like whether Obama is the real deal or just a compilation of smoke and mirrors that,like fog, has almost no substance behind it.
But political storm clouds are on the horizon. To wit; some of the mainstream media, the engine room powering his run for glory, lubricating his journey to the promised land, are now starting to question whether he’s capable of handling the most important job in the world. Would a President Barack Obama be a man in an ocean of politics and world crises way over his head?
An admittedly ardent, outspoken Obama supporter, hate to say, but a sea of doubt is starting seep into my heretofore strong, sometimes bellicose desire to see the good Senator elected.
My doubt isn’t really caused by the fact, as my father says, he’ll send capital gains taxes, even taxes on private home sales through the roof. Or that he’s pledged to decimate the armed forces and surrender in Iraq as the way to refill the national Bush-drained coffers. Not to mention scrap the nuclear defense shield just when it’s becoming operational.
I’m not going south on Barack because of the fact that his religious adviser and mentor, the Reverend Wright, Sunday after Sunday, berated the United States, while spewing anti-white, anti-female, anti-Hillary rhetoric like a venomous machine gun mowing down the enemy.
Or because his campaign is reported to be in the initial stages of enacting into law a comprehensive program to give “sizable” reparations to direct descendants ( or those willing to sign an affidavit that they’re of African descent)of slaves.
No, none of these issues are the lynch pin that holds my loyalty to Barack and the beautiful Michelle.
The truth be known, I have a problem with his VP pick. Frankly, I wanted him to pick Hillary for VP. Hillary, who’s intelligent, experienced and knowledgeable beyond belief. Hillary who received more popular votes than Barack, and has pledged her support for middle America blue collar values, a strong economy, and especially, women’s rights.
Instead, Barack is picking John Kerry who is documented to have lied when running for President like a drunker sailor. Who never spent (”seared into me like a branding iron”) Christmas in Cambodia, never threw his medals over onto the White House lawn as he publicly stated, never was sorry for causing POW’s to be beaten as a result of his claims before congress that the U.S. military was “cutting off heads, butchering children, raping the Vietnamese countryside and torturing innocent civilians.”
John Kerry’s VP selection is why my support for the Democratic-primary-voter-anointed Barack Obama and beautiful first lady, Michelle, is ever so slowly starting to erode like the shoreline; crumble like a stale cookie, evaporate like water under the glare of bright sunlight,–oh forget the metaphors, Barack is starting to make me feel queasy. I mean, I can no longer say with 99% certainty that Barack’s candidacy passes the smell test.
Let’s face it, you and I both know his conversion to Christianity was a Chicago political charade. The guy disavowed his Indonesian Muslim upbringing, called the woman who raised him a “typical” white woman, said he could no more disavow his relationship with Reverend Wright than he could disavow his cultural and religious upbringing; the both of which he later did.
I’m rambling now, I know, but look, he sat in church at Trinity for twenty years listening to Wright’s hate-America-First speech. Then said he didn’t remember hearing it, then said he did. Then said Reverend Wright “wasn’t the man I knew.”
Well, I’m thinking Barack Obama isn’t the man that we, rabid Obama supporters, thought all summer was the right one for the biggest job in the world.
I’m starting to think the only kind of change Barack can be counted on to deliver on is the one involving his mind.
I’m starting to believe that the man we fawned and fainted over during breathtaking speeches was in the final result, not solid as a rock, but a product of smoke and mirrors.
I’m starting to become convinced that Barack Obama is on a collision course with a veritable freight train whose cars are filled with duty, honor and country.
John McCain.
A true American hero. And now they’re colliding, I’m afraid Barack’s election hopes are being knocked right off the track.
Fact is, Americans everywhere are starting to rise up and wise up. And realize for darn sure that Barack Obama is, was and always will be, as they say in the fight game in Chitown, just another wannabe; simply a little man with big designs who folks finally see for what he is.
Just another bum from the neighborhood.
Aug 15, 2008 - 11:10 pm 99. agnana:The great strength of conservatism is that it tries to see and deal with the world as it is. That’s one of the reasons it gets seriously damaged whenever it wanders off into paranoid fantasy- think about how Joe McCarthy damaged the anticommunist movement in this country. Kudos to Bob Owens for continuing to assert that the truth matters.
Aug 16, 2008 - 7:28 am 100. Bitter Scribe:Why is the media afraid to report that the marxist leaning Bill Ayers is a friend of Obama?
So you found out about that through, what…telepathic powers?
Aug 16, 2008 - 7:49 am 101. misanthropicus:re: SE: “Se”, it’s about the time get Owens on the back seat and return to your MoveOnOrg Depot and ask for other assignements. Here you blew it, you Glibotrolls. After Owens posted his bait you (not the only one) jumped in and started trolling – 26 posts in one day! Do they pay you by piece or you’re an hourly thing?
Anyway, much effect your eeely interventions didn’t have – all you’re managed to do is to get some good people’s attention for a while but that’s about it. Hey, 26 posts in one day is quite an amout, isn’t it?
Since this malicious Glibamatrolling has been noticed on several blogs lately, I broadcasted the following:
Update On Obamatrolls Sabotaging Sites & Blogs – (a resembling situation with the one described here “—Name—”) is currently happening on Pajama Media, where (after the Soetoro thing hit the fan) one Bob Owens posted an, actually apologetic, piece about Obama: “Dissecting Obama’s School Years”.
Aug 16, 2008 - 7:54 am 102. Sandra M:Since then, the thread has been invaded by Obamatrolls engaging everyone, posting non-sequiturs, clearly out to disrupt or re-direct the flow of conversation, a particular troll “se” having 26 posts in twelve hours! Reminds the Russian cyber attack on Georgia and Estonia, doesn’t it? But then, what can we expect from deeply Stalinistic outfit like MoveOnOrg? Anyway, remember “se” – he/she/it is in your site/blog with the PURPOSE of altering the space’ content/orientation per Axelrod’s instructions.
What does it matter if Obama was listed as a Muslim at age 6?
What DOES MATTER is his campaigning for his East German-educated cousin Raila Odinga in Kenya. Odinga who, in an 85% Christian nation, promised the Muslims that if elected he would institute sharia law. Odinga who lost the election, fomented mob violence and burned 50 Black Christians to death in a church. Odinga who Obama called often during the New Hampshire primary. Obama then called Secretary of State Condaleeza Rice and urged “power sharing” on the pro-western Kenya government. Odinga, a ruthless marxist, is now “Prime Minister.” THAT matters.
Aug 16, 2008 - 8:18 am 103. se:re: SE: “Se”, it’s about the time get Owens on the back seat and return to your MoveOnOrg Depot and ask for other assignements. Here you blew it, you Glibotrolls. After Owens posted his bait you (not the only one) jumped in and started trolling – 26 posts in one day! Do they pay you by piece or you’re an hourly thing?
Anyway, much effect your eeely interventions didn’t have – all you’re managed to do is to get some good people’s attention for a while but that’s about it. Hey, 26 posts in one day is quite an amout, isn’t it?
Since this malicious Glibamatrolling has been noticed on several blogs lately, I broadcasted the following:
Update On Obamatrolls Sabotaging Sites & Blogs – (a resembling situation with the one described here “—Name—”) is currently happening on Pajama Media, where (after the Soetoro thing hit the fan) one Bob Owens posted an, actually apologetic, piece about Obama: “Dissecting Obama’s School Years”.
Since then, the thread has been invaded by Obamatrolls engaging everyone, posting non-sequiturs, clearly out to disrupt or re-direct the flow of conversation, a particular troll “se” having 26 posts in twelve hours! Reminds the Russian cyber attack on Georgia and Estonia, doesn’t it? But then, what can we expect from deeply Stalinistic outfit like MoveOnOrg? Anyway, remember “se” – he/she/it is in your site/blog with the PURPOSE of altering the space’ content/orientation per Axelrod’s instructions.
Oh my God! 26 posts in twelve hours!
What a paranoid rube you are.
Listen up, dumbass.
I’ve been discussing politics (and audio) online for over 20 years, which judging from your posts is probably longer than you’ve been alive.
From the Usenet newsgroups via a UNIX shell account over a 300 baud modem, to FidoNet and local computer bulletin board systems, to online services (that’s what they called them back before the InterNet was made public) such as CompuServe, GEnie, and America Online. Some 12 years ago or so I started what is still the largest political chat channel on IRC (Undernet #politics). 26 posts in twelve hours? Hell, I could have written the equivalent of those 26 posts in half an hour on #politics.
Except for some occasional visits back to IRC, I’ve spent the past six or seven years posting on audio related forums. Oh, and I did post briefly on a couple of blogs back during the Dan Rather/Texas National Guard brouhaha because I found it intriguing.
And that’s how I recently came to be here and on a few other blogs.
One of the audio forums I frequent has an area for non-audio discussions where people discuss life in general, their non-audio related hobbies, and also politics.
One of the users there started regularly posting about Obama’s birth certificate being a fake, usually with a link to some Freeper post.
The issue intrigued me much as the forged Texas National Guard papers had intrigued me. And it being the slow season for the audio business, I thought I’d check it out, and wandered back into the political realm.
Simple as that.
So take your paranoid, ignorant “Obamatrolls” nonsense and stick it in your diaper.
se
Aug 16, 2008 - 10:04 am 104. Dave ll:Se-
Your claim that Obama should not be forthright in releasing any documention to answer any of these questions about him, because it doesn’t matter anyway to those who are voting FOR HIM or NOT voting for him anyway… is totally flawed!
It is the vast “center” of undecided/independents who are still on the fence about Obama who he needs to convince. With all these “unknowns” and unanswered questions they will NEVER be convinced to vote for him.
IF I was an Obama supporter, I would be URGING him to come clean…that is, unless I thought he had something to hide! He needs to WIN these voters…not hide his past from them!
What is it that you are so AFRAID of him revealing?????
Aug 16, 2008 - 12:08 pm 105. se:Your claim that Obama should not be forthright in releasing any documention to answer any of these questions about him, because it doesn’t matter anyway to those who are voting FOR HIM or NOT voting for him anyway… is totally flawed!
I’m not making any claim at all. I’m simply saying that from a candidate’s perspective (whether it’s Obama or anyone else), I see no reason why they would bring attention to those who most people don’t even know exist.
It is the vast “center” of undecided/independents who are still on the fence about Obama who he needs to convince. With all these “unknowns” and unanswered questions they will NEVER be convinced to vote for him.
You seem to be overlooking the fact that the “vast ‘center’ of undecided/independents who are still on the fence about Obama” aren’t the ones demanding that “all these ‘unknowns’ and unanswered questions” be answered. They’re not even questions for them because it’s simply not even on their radar.
That’s because “all these ‘unknowns’ and unanswered questions” have yet to make it beyond the handful of blogs that are in the business of cooking them up, and the vast majority of that “vast ‘center’ of undecided/independents” doesn’t sit around reading blogs.
IF I was an Obama supporter, I would be URGING him to come clean…that is, unless I thought he had something to hide! He needs to WIN these voters…not hide his past from them!
You win over voters by addressing issues that are actually issues for those voters you want to win over. But “all these ‘unknowns’ and unanswered questions” simply aren’t an issue for the voters you speak of here.
What is it that you are so AFRAID of him revealing?????
I’m not afraid of his revealing anything. You need to stop laboring under the delusion that I’m an Obama supporter.
se
Aug 16, 2008 - 1:06 pm 106. misanthropicus:RE: Obamatroll “se”-s beating the quota assigned by Brazile in the Soetoro affair – he scored the 27th post in 24 hours on the same issue.
“se”, pathetic coagulation – as political activity and acuity you are about Melrose Larry’s level (in case you’re not Melrose Larry).
Aug 16, 2008 - 1:45 pm 107. se:Why on the earth would one in sound mind (unless paid by piece) do 27 seven posts in one day unless… Emergency! Paging restrainig orderlies on floor 6, pacient “se” at large again at the computer terminal! Emergency, paging restrainig orderlies on floor 6, have straitjack, binds and triple loads of calming enemas at ready! Patient “se” AWOL, paging restrainig orderlies on floor 6!
Why on the earth would one in sound mind (unless paid by piece) do 27 seven posts in one day unless…
Why on the earth would one in sound mind go around tallying other peoples’ posts?
se
P.S. That’s 28 now.
Aug 16, 2008 - 1:56 pm 108. TexasDarlin:Hi. Actually you have misrepresented what I wrote.
I said that the school document offers “compelling evidence” of certain assertions (as you’ve listed them).
I never said it was “proof” of anything.
Please be more careful when citing me.
Aug 16, 2008 - 2:34 pm 109. se:Psssst! Misanthropicus! I’m posting over at NoQuarter now. Better get over there and start counting.
se
Aug 16, 2008 - 3:59 pm 110. JM:Keating 5
First wife/second wife timing
Birth in Panama Canal Zone
I never said “fill in the blank.”
Complete Medical (including Psychological) Records not public.
Who am I?
Aug 16, 2008 - 4:15 pm 111. Rachel Peepers:Dave II:
Thanks for the kind words. I never really know when I’ve crossed that fine line between believable narrative and satire. I thought the line from Superman, “Powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men” was the dead giveaway.
As for BO, I’m afraid he’s got so many question marks about his background and character(skeletons in his closet if you will), that to make ends meet, he may have to go on tour with Question Mark and the Mysterians. Fact is, many predict that when the truth comes out about him in all its 96 tear gory,(not a typo) he’ll eventually fade off into the annals of history like all those other proverbial one hit wonders. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. All talk, no walk. Or as they say on the backstreets of Philly,
Aug 16, 2008 - 4:21 pm 112. sheridan bucket:Just another bum from the neighborhood. Barack “Cocky” Balboa. I mean Obama. A palooka from Puniville that just doesn’t pass the smell test.
I don’t think this will get sorted out or that it will make a large difference in the end. If I was going to vote for the guy because I was sold on his positions then his murky background that includes a family with half siblings flung all over the planet produced by various pairings of 5 or 6 different adults would not matter. Nor would anything I’ve seen so far with regard to COLB.
The one item that it gets distilled down to for me in this area is the Pakistan trip in the early 1980’s. All of the other stuff, growing up in Indonesia, Muslim or not, adopted or not etc. etc. all applied to him as a child and was out of his control. This ends for me if someone can describe the Pakistan trip in a way that excludes his use of documentation other than a US Passport to enter that country. Apparently non-muslims trying to enter at that point on US Passports would have had some difficulty, although being that it was 25 years ago this too is hard to confirm. If he did use Indonesian documentation to enter Pakistan at that point in his life it would become a disqualifier regardless of how I felt about the issues or his candidacy to this point. I’ve asked this question on other sites and can’t seem to get a good answer. It seems like a fairly simple one to answer and I hope someone can do it and provide a credible link or source.
Aug 16, 2008 - 6:22 pm 113. Dave II:Yes, Rachel…you certainly have a gift for writing that “kills them” with “kindness”! So good in fact I doubt many even catch the drift…their loss!
Anyway…back to “Se”…
One quick question:
When these issues of his “former name/non- legal name change” and former Indonesian citizenship DO become a “mainstream” issue (and they WILL after the convention…mark my words!) and they ARE on everyone’s “radar”…do we THEN have a RIGHT TO KNOW since it’s on everyone’s mind including the media?
(Gee…if we had to wait for THAT on every issue the National Enquirer would truly be our national paper!)
Aug 16, 2008 - 7:08 pm 114. se:This ends for me if someone can describe the Pakistan trip in a way that excludes his use of documentation other than a US Passport to enter that country. Apparently non-muslims trying to enter at that point on US Passports would have had some difficulty, although being that it was 25 years ago this too is hard to confirm.
Actually someone found a write-up in the New York Times’ travel section on Pakistan from the same year and it gave absolutely no indication at all of such difficulties.
I know I reposted the link somewhere, but I can’t find it offhand. I’ll dig a little deeper later and if I find it I’ll post it here.
se
Aug 16, 2008 - 9:56 pm 115. Ambrose P. Hill:So Obama is not releasing his Birth Certificate because he wants his adversaries to use up “resources?”
C’mon. What ridiculous reasoning. He stands to lose ten of thousands of votes if people think he’s not a natural born US citizen. He has everything to gain by making public an authentic birth certificate. Especially given that so many people look askance at his Indonesian upbringing.
Maybe he’s not releasing his Birth Certificate for the same reason that John F. Kerry refused to release ALL of his military records.
Again, he has much to gain by affirming his US birth. And many votes to lose if he doesn’t.
Aug 16, 2008 - 10:03 pm 116. se:Anyway…back to “Se”…
You can call me Steve if you’d like.
One quick question:
Sure.
When these issues of his “former name/non- legal name change” and former Indonesian citizenship DO become a “mainstream” issue (and they WILL after the convention…mark my words!) and they ARE on everyone’s “radar”…do we THEN have a RIGHT TO KNOW since it’s on everyone’s mind including the media?
Well, as I’ve said before, you have a right to ASK. But you don’t have a right to KNOW.
You could only have a right to know if Obama had no right to not answer.
se
Aug 16, 2008 - 10:05 pm 117. misanthropicus:RE: SE’s credentials – mighty impressed buddy. Still, your hysterical flurry of 30 inconclusive/clogging posts in one day on this issue are clear evidence of a “mental situation”, if you get my drift. A freak even by going by the name of “se” is still a freak – crappy life you must have, man, if your only reprieve is yakking and typing on the web all day long (again, this under the reserve that you’re not paid by piece by MoveOn.Org).
Aug 17, 2008 - 6:37 am 118. sheridan bucket:Back to the issue – maestro Soetoro lost the election. So, get a ticket for y/self to Jonestown in Guyana then proceed – I don’t think there is one who will regret a loon like you.
I bumped into that Pakistan Travel Link
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE2DA1338F937A25755C0A967948260&sec=travel&spon=&pagewanted=all
So the reality is that he could have travelled to that country in 1981 on a US Passport. Still wish his campaign would authorize full disclosure on this and the other COLB issues to just put it to bed once and for all but for me this issue is dead unless someone proves something irrefutable.
While I am not going to vote for the guy based on the issues at hand I have posted the above link in fairness.
As to all of the charges regarding COLB, citizenship etc., unless those records are opened up it is going to be virtually impossible to prove anything one way or the other. Somewhat unfortunate that the democrats have nominated an enigma but that was their right to do so and people can decline to vote for him if the lack of total disclosure leaves them uncomfortable. Without a legitimate bombshell the qualification issue probably has little sway in November.
Aug 17, 2008 - 3:23 pm 119. FactMeister:BloodingtheEars:
These rumors will not hurt obama not no way not no how.
It is not about hurting “obama” [sic], it is about preserving the Republic. Some people think the United States is a democracy. Unfortunately they are still allowed to vote. Well, no matter. A lot of dead people will be voting for Obama, and maybe some cats and dogs, sheep and turkeys…
Sep 21, 2008 - 5:08 pm 120. YouShouldKnow:I think it’s hypocritical that no one questions why McCain doesn’t make public his POW and military records. This has been a problem for families of missing POWs for years, yet, because he won’t reveal these records, they cannot find out what happened to their loved ones. McCain was on the Senate Select Committee in the 70’s. This committee was suppose to handle all the MIA/POW affairs. When the Alliance of Families of MIA/POWs went before this committee, they were challenged cruelly by McCain because he felt that those records, tapes and transcripts (which included records of his POW detainment and records of other POWs, who were not accounted for) were best kept out of public view. Why wouldn’t he want to help those families locate and retrieve (if possible) those who were left behind? Today, he is still sitting on those records and if there were POWs who were alive then, chances are they are not now. What would possess any man who has suffered in captivity to NOT want to release those records? If it it applies to Obama, then it applies to McCain. Why? Because his persona is built around his POW experience. I want to review those records because I understand that the vets who came back with him claimed that McCain gave important information to the enemy. Will you also petition to have those records released?
Oct 20, 2008 - 2:44 am 121. abro915:These insipid comments clearly reflect the real reasons McCain and Palin will lose. The Republican party has become infested with the illiterate, hateful, self serving and short sighted. Worse, these are the people McCain and the RNC has chosen to align with (I don’t include Palin because she is, in fact, one of the infections). Thanks to them, the Republican has become diseased beyond cure. The intelligent, patriotic and visionary are quitting by the droves. You’re too good for these pissants Bob. Let’s revive the true essence of conservatism in the Independent Party.
Oct 25, 2008 - 4:09 pm 122. suspicious:I am a retired peace officer and a life long registered Democrat. When I graduated from college I spent several hundred dollars getting dozens of certified copies of my birth certificate, college transcripts, and high school transcripts because along with every application I submitted for an entry level position with police/sheriff/probation departments that I applied to I was required to submit these documents along with copies of my diplomas. I also had to submit a list of all the addresses where I had lived since becoming an adult, and any trips I had made out of country. This information was used to conduct background investigations since I was applying for jobs that required a security clearance. Obama is applying for the highest office in the land and is refusing to produce these documents? Why bother fighting a case when it can be quashed by simply showing these documents to the judge if there isn’t anything to hide?
I am two years younger than Obama and was born in Louisiana. I was born at home and the only people present were myself, and of course I have no recollection of the event, my father, who delivered me and is now deceased, and my mother. I looked over my birth certificate recently and went over the information on it. While I am certain there are records from the doctors my mother took me to shortly after my birth, the actual deed was not registered with the Office of Vital Records by my father until six months after my birth, at the time we were getting ready to move out of state. It clearly states on the document the address and Parish where I was born. Obama admits in his book that he has a copy of this document, so why is he refusing to produce it?
I also went over my college transcripts and there are fields on it that indicate what your citizenship is as well as what grants, scholarships, and financial aid you received during your education there. I am sure that grad schools would have similar information on their transcripts as well. Again, if there is nothing to hide, why not simply produce the documents and put the rumors to rest?
I think that the most important information in this case is that he traveled to Pakistan in 1981, which is admitted by his campaign, which was a no travel zone for US citizens at that time as Pakistan was under Marshall Law. On his way there Obama stopped in Indonesia to visit his sister at which point, in order to get into Pakistan, he would have had to get his Indonesian passport renewed in order to travel to Pakistan. The only way he could have renewed his Indonesian passport would be to declare himself an Indonesian citizen (his school records from Fransiskus Assisi show he was recognized as an Indonesian citizen as a minor, http://www.daylife.com/photo/01u33pL9Ns06D), because in 1981 Indonesia did not recognize dual citizenship. This would mean that, AS AN ADULT, Obama gave up his US citizenship in order to get his Indonesian passport. If this is not the case, then Obama should not have any problems producing his US passport showing that he traveled to Pakistan in 1981. Records of this should also be maintained by the US State Department.
While POTUS is a federal office, it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to vet candidates. My thought is that he has claimed his extensive travel and connections to other countries qualifies him to handle foreign affairs as President, so he should be required to produce documentation to support claims of where he has traveled (his passports), where he was born, as well as his college and grad school transcripts. I will ask the SoS office tomorrow to properly vet Obama as a candidate and demand that Obama produce the documents requested or be removed from the ballot. To be fair, I think that the same should be done for all other POTUS candidates, however I doubt that anyone else will have a problem producing the documentation. Again, all he has to do is produce the documents to put an end to all the questions out there.
Oct 27, 2008 - 12:05 am 123. StillNoAnswers:Why has this not been answered? Why has the questioning stopped about this important issue?
May 11, 2009 - 12:56 pm