Pajamas Media

55 Comments

1. mike:

who cares what the koran says or doesn’t say, or even what the mullahs/imams/sheikhs/professors say - seeing how the most pious muslims in the most islamic countries/communnities do this on a regular basis from time immemorial, the answer is an unequovical YES, islam indeed sanctions honor killings.

you gonna believe the koran and hadit or your lyin’ eyes?

Sep 27, 2008 - 1:09 am 2. Jabba the Tutt:

Honor killing is not mentioned in the Koran. Obviously then it doesn’t exist. So, what are you talking about?

Sep 27, 2008 - 5:34 am 3. Lynn:

An excellent article and heartbreaking. It is proper that they should be called “honor killings” because while they are killing women and young girls, they are also killing their honor which leaves them with nothing. Fear and enmity against woman is a theme which seems to run through the veins of Islam.

Sep 27, 2008 - 6:16 am 4. cedarford:

Irshad Manji’s analysis hit closer to the truth, but is incomplete. By bringing in Catholic honor killings a century ago, Manji throws in the “you too” defense — the “you” being the West — and implies that such murders will fall out of favor as societies modernize and become more secular.

Irshad Manji is closer to the truth than many would care to admit, because there is a history of honor killings rooted in most cultures. Not always over sex, but tribal and family honor. Which was what most societies used to enforce norms when societies lacked the luxury of resources for lawyers, cops, or providing scarce food and manpower for jailing inmates…

Greks and Romanss killed, or expected families themselves to kill themselves over family shame that a member committed rape, murder, treason…or was caught in “unacceptable corruption”. Catholics did it over moral transgressions that sometimes saw whole families or tribes obligated to blood feuds. (See Romeo&Juliet). The Chinese & Japanese? Also had honor killing.
Modern times? Hindus do honor killings. In New Guinea, tribal wars have been fought over who stole a pig 4 generations ago or some slut who ran off without father’s approval and wedding gift exchange.
In the US, we see how codes of honor, including matters of sex, have kept gangs from the Mafia up to MS-13 powerful and intact.

Muslims have, at the tribe or family unit - been poor, for the most part. They don’t have much…so survival has meant following honor codes…because honor is sometimes all they have. That has meant many blessings that debased, honor-free societies lack. Low crime. People are polite and courteous to kin and neighbor. Visitors are treated to true hospitality and protection by the host family’s very lives. It means fierce cohesion in battle and in a greater degree of certainty (and lack of curiosity) about life.
It explains why the stupid 30-million rewards for Binnie and such as Hez chiefs have so few takers because any betrayer would lose family and tribal honor - much to the amazement of “money talks, it’s the only thing that matters!” Americans and Israelis.
But it also explains why tribal honor cultures tend to be poorer, more backwards.

It is also natural for people to evoke their religion when they fear that the law, contemporary morality may see their actions and beliefs as “over the line”.

Irshad Manji’s analysis about the lack of guidance in the Qu’ran and the body of Hadiths regarding honor killings is correct.

Neocons made a focus on honor killings a mistake, same when making female genital mutilation a crusade that they thought would “ignite” people against their “Islamofascists and WW4″. That is tribal and family based. Another ongoing stupidity is making out like Ahmadinejad is the unchallenged Hitler of Iran - when in fact he has far less power to affect events.

There are plenty of odious things within Islam itself that could be, should be discussed. It is a religion of war and conquest that says it’s great to have Muslim men sexually take infidel women to help further weaken infidel numbers, but it is forbidden for pure Muslim women to ever sully themselves with an infidel.
It is a religion that from the start which failed to separate out religious from secular or political matters and which treats all non-Muslims as second-class inferiors that do not deserve truly equal friendships, treatment in the eyes of law.

Sep 27, 2008 - 7:41 am 5. Omar:

Cedarford:

I disagree on a couple of points. First, FGM is indeed obligatory in at least one school of islamic thought - the Shafi, I think (I’ll check on it). Also, there most likely would have been no cultural tradition of FGM in Indonesia before the arrival of islam. Now, something like 97% of indonesian muslim women undergoe some form of the procedure. In the other schools of islamic thought, FGM is considered either recommended or at least permissible. Also, Mo apparently observed the procedure at one point and chose not to stop it - only directing the elder to ‘not take too much.’ These words have given the practice a permanence and credibility that make it very much rooted in islam.

Also, on honor killing, there are a couple of internal requirements within islam which make such killings inevitable. First is Q 4:34, which says that a woman may be beaten on fear of disobedience; second, are the very reliable hadiths which state that anyone who abandons his religion should be killed. Also, the males in the family are responsible for enforcing islam and islamic norms and authority over their women - and as the Quran says, violence is the lever of last resort with no clear stopping point. Presumably, if the woman continues to refuse to conform, at some point, she has crossed the line into apostasy, which again deserves death. This is why these things are deeply (and probably permanently) islamic.

Sep 27, 2008 - 8:08 am 6. fred:

I’m going to do two things before I contribute to a discussion on this topic here on pajamasmedia.com. First, I am going to get out my Qur’an (the electronic one)and see what I can find within it which pertains to this. You all should know that every traditional, classical school of Islamic theology upholds the principle that the Qur’an is the literal, inerrant, uncreated, and eternal word of Allah. It cannot be changed. It cannot be “interpreted.” The Qur’an is a divine dictation. To fail to grasp that foundational point puts you on a path that is very susceptible to taqiyya (deception).

Secondly, I am going to see if Robert Spencer has posted anything at his blog over at JihadWatch.org, because Robert is also highly knowledgeable about the various ahadith. If not directly referenced in the Qur’an, it may be in some ahadith, and if the ahadith used to justify it are from either Bukhari or Muslim, which are the most authoritative ahadith, then we are likely being presented with the words and deeds of Muhammad.

You have to trust me in this advice. Reading Robert Spencer’s books and the blog he and Hugh Fitzgerald have going will put you on solid footing, if you truly want to understand Islamic theology and scripture.

Sep 27, 2008 - 8:18 am 7. susan:

cedarford, you wrote so many incorrect things.

Honor killings did exist in remote past and recent past in places that were not muslims, I am thinking about the south of Italy and the remote islands of greece for example.

Among those people it was normal to consider women as inferior and beings to take care of, that were also the keepers of the “honor” of the family.

However, since those places WEREN’T driven by a suprematist ideology called islam, they have been educated and subjected to the LAW of the land. Also the fact that those places were catholic or orthodox helped to see the woman as a human being and not an object.

PS: do not try to come back with abstract theories because I am a native from italy and unlike you I know what I am talking about.

Your comparison of those situation with the suprematist ideology of islam has no ground. Their self-proclaimed prophet had dozen of slave girls for his sexual perverted needs. Jesus never indulged in such actions.

Sep 27, 2008 - 9:12 am 8. Cletus:

“The arresting Iraqi sergeant stated that “not much can be done when we have an ‘honor killing’ case. You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws.” The father also killed his wife, who left him after the murder of their daughter. He will not be prosecuted for either murder in Iraq.”

So what does that mean? That America is just replacing a secular tyrannical regime with a hardcore Islamist regime? I mean, that doesn’t seem very secular.

how wonderful. how free the Iraqi people will be. What an asset and an ally such a nation would be to the west.

/sarcasm

Sep 27, 2008 - 12:06 pm 9. JMS2008:

I am surprised that any woman survives in such a society. No doubt in the eyes of these men, all women have done something in their lives to deserve death. If these men are not careful, their plans for world domination will be severely limited by the few women they leave alive to reproduce for them.

Sep 27, 2008 - 12:34 pm 10. love america:

The more and more I see honor killings in the news, the more and more I believe this is the religion of the devil. How on earth in this modern day can a father or brother kill their own flesh and blood. It is beyond my comprehension.

Sep 27, 2008 - 1:02 pm 11. Lynn:

Funny Cedarford how you so kindly try to explain to us why killing your wife, daughter, sister is matter of family honor with its’ roots going far into our past and I still don’t get it.

Thank you for also pointing out that the lost art of hospitality, kindness, protection etc. went along with the honor killing mentality and and of course it is lost to us in the west since we don’t practice honor killings or the law doesn’t turn a blind eye to its practice.

Are you implying that the act of murdering females because they carry your honor for you on their backs should be banned from being discussed in the West because they say ‘please’ get in the hole we dug for you? Or do you admire how they gently assist the women down to her knees and say ‘thank you’ for not moving so I can get a clean shot? Or how about how they whisper to their daughter shh! shh! while they stab her to death with a hand over her mouth because they were worried about disturbing the neighbors. So polite. Jeez that happened here in the U.S. but we dare not discuss it.

Do you also admire how they are using modern technology like cranes to hoist the bodies up so the whole town can see the culprit? But of course any stranger that walks into town is offered a drink and a friendly conversation.

There are plenty of odious things we could discuss about islam right cedarford? but not this.

Sep 27, 2008 - 1:38 pm 12. Omar:

It is the Shafi’i school.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:WSRr8Lt2beYJ:www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/01/20/clitoral-relativism

From ‘Mark Durie’s’ comment following the article (it’s the last one):

“In Februrary 2007 Dr Muhammad al-Mussayar of Al-Azhar University, referring to reliable hadiths from Muslim and al-Bukhari, stated:
“All jurisprudents, since the advent of Islam and for 14 centuries or more, are in consensus that female circumcision is permitted in Islam. But they were divided as to its status in the sharia. Some said that female circumcision is required by the sharia, just like male circumcision. Some said this is a mainstream practice, while others said that it is a noble act.”

Of the four Sunni schools of sharia, it is the Shafi’is who have said that circumcision of girls is compulsory.

The ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, a respected manual of Shafi’i jurisprudence, states “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris” (section e4.3). [The English translation by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (certified by Al-Azhar University) disguises the true meaning of the Arabic text by offering the following bogus English 'translation': "For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert)." ]

As Indonesia is a country in which Shafi’i Islam predominates, it is hardly surprising that female circumcision is commonly practiced among Indonesian Muslims, from Java to Aceh.

There is a close correlation between Shafi’i Islam and the frequency of FGM. Regions where the Shafi’i school predominates are also the places where FGM is more frequent. These include Egypt, southern Arabia, Bahrain, Kurdistan, Somalia, Brunei, Malaysia and Indonesia.

The oft-recited claim that FGM is not a religious practice is proved false, not only because it is more frequently found in Shafi’i areas, but also because it was introduced, along with Shafi’i Islam, into Southeast Asia, a part of the world where it had previously been unknown. . . .”

Sep 27, 2008 - 1:47 pm 13. Lynn:

What honor can any father have who would kill his own child? It’s just disgusting. I don’t care which part of the world one lives in or what religion is involved. It isn’t about religion or culture, it’s about power. Always has been, always will be.

Sep 27, 2008 - 1:48 pm 14. Omar:

All right Lynn, it is about power - but in the case of islam, it’s power with religious sanction - as the article demonstrates.

Sep 27, 2008 - 1:59 pm 15. Marina:

There’s is a certain site:
http://www.kactuz.com,
where the guy analyzes not only Qur’an, but the Hadiths and the early Mohammed’s biographies, considered as extremely relevant in Islam.

The problem is: the guy is a closet anti-Semite. Be carefull when he speaks about Israel OR JEWS. (Last time I visited his site he called the Jews “darn”, and he REALLY BELIEVED AND STATED 6 Days War was used as a pretext to conquer palestitian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and Lebanese territories just … eh… for FUN? for “we-have-no-idea-where-to-kill-our boys-and-girls”? Or what? The guy is what he is. O.K.

But he has really done a good job investigating what Islam really teaches about the FGM and the other forms of the abuse of women.

If someone would be so kind and find another site with such a profoundity but without anti-Semitism, I’ll be very greatful. But it’s OK if there’s none.

Sep 27, 2008 - 3:06 pm 16. Steynian 256 « Free Mark Steyn!:

[...] DOES ISLAM Justify Honor Killings? by Supna Zaidi “Debate rages over whether religion or culture is [...]

Sep 27, 2008 - 3:41 pm 17. cedarford:

[This comment has been removed because it contained an obscene attack on another commenter. Such behavior is not permissible on this site. The Editors apologize for not having seen this earlier.]

Sep 27, 2008 - 5:58 pm 18. 11B40:

Greetings:

Anthropologist Philip Carl Salzman examines “honor killings” in some depth in his book, “Culture and Conflict in the Middle East.”

As to the “culture vs religion” subtheme, Dr. Salzman contends that one of the things that Islam helped do was to globalize the Arab tribal culture.

Sep 27, 2008 - 6:02 pm 19. Omar:

” . . .one of the things that Islam helped do was to globalize the Arab tribal culture.”

______________________

Not just “globalized it,” SACRALIZED it -making it the inerreant and unchanging word of Allah. This has happened with some of the very worst aspects of tribal/warrior culture, even slavery:

“…The main author of the Saudi religious curriculum expressed his unequivocal support for the legalization of slavery in one of his lectures recorded on a cassette and obtained exclusively by SIA news.

“Leading government cleric Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan is the author of the religious books currently used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the and in Saudi schools aboard – including those in the Washington, D.C. metro area.

“Slavery is a part of Islam,” he says in the tape, adding: “Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1018026/posts

Sep 27, 2008 - 6:54 pm 20. jay kactuz:

Marina querida, would that be my site, kactuzkid?

Here is the correct address:
http://www.kactuzkid.com

I just happened to pass by at this time and saw the comment ( I read PJmedia a couple times a week). I have been called a lot of things, including some very unkind words and threats (mostly by our Muslim friends) but never an anti-semite. I have no idea where you got your stated facts. I stand with Israel. They are the front time in Islam’s war on all of us. The only difference between we goyim and the jews is that the Muslims would prefer to kill them first.

Having said that ..
Any close look at the intersection of “women” and “islam” shows a total disregard for the female of the species. Women are to be used, they are worth half the value of men, they can be beaten, they are subject to certain rules while men are not, etc… The Quran only mentions one woman by name: Mary (and gets her status in Christianity wrong!). The Islamic traditioons are even worse. The ahadith tell us that Mohammad and other early leaders beat their women (unless Aisha saying “he hit me and cause pain” means something else), enslaved and raped females, considered them stupid, said that most people in hell were women, etc…

Now what we are seeing is a deterioration of the status of women in Islamic societies. More and more must cover up. Other restrictions are being imposed. The fact is that Muslims want a purer Islam and that means women must be controlled, more and more. Morality, in islam, is all about how a man controls a woman’s body. It is not about peace, being kind, charity or honesty.

Unless one has studied what Muslims actually say and do on this subject, a person will have no idea of the extent of this evil and its terrible effect on women.
http://www.kactuzkid.com/women.html

Bad times are coming. It will get worse - for all of us but more for women.

Kactuz

Sep 27, 2008 - 7:19 pm 21. fred:

I agree with former Muslim and cleric, Ali Sina, when he writes in his psychobiography of the life of Muhammad, that “Allah” was a narcissistic personality disordered Muhammad’s “sock puppet deity.” Muhammad was a revolting human being, one of the worst in history, truly the Devil’s perfect tool, and his behavior towards women was abominable. From bedding a nine year old girl to conniving to steal his son in law’s beautiful wife (and succeeding, after seducing her).

His modus operandi towards women was one of total domination. They were nothing but objects to him.

Today one of the more seedy aspects of the Left is the fact that so much of the so-called femminist movement tacitly approves of the Islamic world’s ongoing jihad against the West. THEY DON’T TAKE THE SIDE OF WOMEN. The fortunate thing is that more and more women are realizing this betrayal. I think the Left currently is lapping at its high water mark in the West. It is only a matter of time before it either self-destructs or we are compelled to destroy it ourselves. Either through the ballot box or through civil war. The Left stands in the way of the West defending itself against the jihad.

Sep 27, 2008 - 9:18 pm 22. Omar:

Kactuzkid:

Thanks for stopping by. I find your comments very insightful. Since the counter-jihad is my primary area of interest, I’m surprised I have not come across your site before. I’ll try to stop by on a regular basis.

Sep 27, 2008 - 10:25 pm 23. schnargley:

“The Left stands in the way of the West defending itself against the jihad. (fred)

What you term as “jihad” is just a euphemism for Islam. What many in the west are really doing is attacking and persecuting Islam through bigotry, hatred and especially, ignorance. Many of the uneductade in the west have no idea of what Islam is, and base their judgements on rumors on right-wing hate sites. They have no appreciation for Islam, nor do they have diversity sensitivity training that enables them to look at other cultures without fear, non-judgementalism, and tolerance. We of the Left must interject ourselves to protect the freedom of religion, conscience and diversity in our midst against the threats and misunderstanding of right-wing Islamophobes that don’t understand their culture and practices, and want to impose a western values upon these welcome immigrants in our countries.

Sep 27, 2008 - 11:21 pm 24. Terry Gain:

I object to Mr Pompous’ misuse of the word twat.

schnargleyy, you twat: defend Islamic priciples and practices starting with FMG and death to apostates.

Sep 28, 2008 - 5:18 am 25. susan parsons:

This is a very good site. Check this topic
http://www.reformislam.org/honorcide/
and their ‘blog in general.

Sep 28, 2008 - 6:38 am 26. Lynn:

Finally cedarford, you have written something clear and concise in a few short sentences and yet you have still not managed to move the conversation forward. But, in your defense, it’s taking you less time which I thank you for.

Omar: Although I agree somewhat to what ‘this’ Lynn said: “What honor can any father have who would kill his own child? It’s just disgusting. I don’t care which part of the world one lives in or what religion is involved. It isn’t about religion or culture, it’s about power. Always has been, always will be.”

It was not ‘this’ Lynn but maybe a more diplomatic one.

Sep 28, 2008 - 7:15 am 27. Omar:

Schnargley:

I haven’t got a xenophobic or intolerant bone in my body.

What I DO have is doctoral degree in law and two years of full-time study on this particular topic under my belt. If you want to speak intelligently on this subject, I suggest you do the same (and be sure to include a few non-apologetic materials or the effort will be lost.)

Good luck.

Sep 28, 2008 - 8:26 am 28. lgkick:

No proof is provided by the author to assure us that honor-killing is supported by Quran or Hadith. Honor killing is supported by Islam as much as child abuse is supported by Catholicism. The Quran is clear on the matter of adultery. These are a few verses from chapter 24:

6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;

7. And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.

8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;

9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.

If Quran supported Honor-killing there wouldn’t be any need for all the drama above. It would simply say: if the husband finds his wife cheating, he should kill her. Instead it makes sure that both sides are heard in the court. If the husband has a charge against the wife but the wife swears that she is innocent, then no punishment is given.

Sep 28, 2008 - 8:31 am 29. fred:

schnargley,

Fortunately for the rest of us, more and more Americans are reading the Qur’an and getting up to speed on English translations of ahadith, especially the ahadith Bukhari and Muslim.

You call me an “islamophobe.” I consider that no insult because the normal, healthy human being should be an islamophobe. It is people like you who know nothing about this death cult (it is not a religion)ideology that has, conservatively estimated (by Bill Warner), murdered over 270 million human beings over the course of fourteen centuries of jihad. Dr. Andrew Bostom has written a book, “The Legacy of Jihad,” that details the gory and horrific history of jihad conquest. The historian Bat Ye’or has detailed the sordid and oppressive history of dhimmitude, from the earliest conquests on down to the present day. Former Muslims, who brave the Quranic dictum that apostates should be put to death, testify to the retrograde and evil character of Islam.

And now to briefly address your advertised unabashed apologetics for the Left. Socialism/Communism/Marxism has, during the 20th century, murdered over 100 million human beings.

I think the Unholy Alliance that David Horowitz writes about is right on target. Socialism/Marxism/”Progressivism” is in an alliance with the world’s oldest totalitarian ideology to drive a stake into the heart of our civilization founded upon Judaism, Christianity, and Graeco-Roman culture, combined with the classical liberal impetus of Northern European, Celtic culture. Islam and Marx. But in the end, “schnargley,” it is the head choppers who will do you and your compatriots in. They are willing to die for their ideology. Very, very few socialists are willing to die for Marxism. That’s why in so many of their militaries they needed “political officers” who would point a pistol or machine gun at the troops’ backs in order to make sure they charged into the enemy’s lines. The jihadis are willing to die, while socialists are mostly cowards who will not risk death. That’s why MAD worked during the Cold War and why it will not work with the Mullahs in Tehran.

I used to be a revisionist Marxist, and I left the Left in 1987. I was studying on the cutting edge of where the most serious critiques of socialism were meeting with revisionist Marxist thought. People like Michael Novak rendered devastating critiques of Liberation Theology, which young Jesuits like me saw as formidable hurdles to socialist thinking.

By declaring that it is the West which persecutes Islam you openly side with the enemies of humanity. Don’t be surprised if someday people like you find yourselves facing political and possibly existential annihilation. The West will recover and fight back against you savages.

Signed,

A proud Islamophobe and a bitter clinger to guns and religion

Sep 28, 2008 - 8:34 am 30. fred:

The testimony of a woman in an Islamic court is worth one half of a man’s. Their respective testimony is not on equal footing. The same inequality applies to kafirs in Islamic courts.

There is no justice in Islamic courts for women and for unbelievers.

Sep 28, 2008 - 9:12 am 31. Lynn:

Omar;
What it is, is power based on a male dominated society which uses religion to enforce actions which make the weakest part of any society their prey. In Islam it is the women and girls of that religious/political ideology who are treated with utter contempt and forced by men to take a secondary position in Muslim society. What I still haven’t figured out is who has emasculated the Muslim man to such an extent that they would hate their own women and abuse them in such a way.
For cedarford; your verbage (twat) shows the same contempt for women as any chauvinist out there could. Any dialogue with you is utterly useless.

Sep 28, 2008 - 9:23 am 32. cedarford:

Lynn:
Funny Cedarford how you so kindly try to explain to us why killing your wife, daughter, sister is matter of family honor with its’ roots going far into our past and I still don’t get it.

I guess the moderators deleted a post for an offensive word I used in response to the above accusation.
My main point was that honor codes are not unique to Islam. And, no Lynn, I do not support killing my wife, daughter, sister as a matter of family honor (nor son or brother, since for some reason you think honor codes are gender-specific). They have no place in modern America….though I will add that as late as the 70s it was legal to kill an adulterous spouse and partner caught in the act in much of our South and West.

And we could discuss American duelling over honor, blood feuds, and the “honor code” basis of why rape in America was subject to much more severe penalties than battery.

But suffice it to say that “honor killings” outrage is pretty much limited to the West. In more patriarchal Asian, Latin, S European cultures it is part of a culture they still partially embrace or were aware existed before recent modernization. Not the mistaken belief conveyed here it is restricted somehow to only Muslim tribes. Hindus commit almost as many honor-killings per capita as Muslims do. (Annual Total - 5,000 vs. 5,800). And many other cultures still have tribal or male family elder control of female “property”.
FGM is also prevalent in African Christians and animists as tribal tradition.

Sep 28, 2008 - 10:17 am 33. WhyLoo:

Islam is real religion.and Islam is not bad.. you must learn what is Islam.. Please learn Islam!

Sep 28, 2008 - 1:10 pm 34. Marian:

WhyLoo: The more I learn islam, the more aghast I am of it.

Maybe your personal islam is nice and spiritual.

The real-world street-level islam is a threat to the survival of humanity.

Sep 29, 2008 - 12:34 am 35. justin tabler:

Honor killing is explicitly justifed by Islamic law: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022448.php

It’s not a cultural aberration. It’s a Muslim thing, and it ultimately hinges upon pervasive pedophilia, as this is obviously the reason for Muslims’ obsession with virginity. It also hinges upon Muslim men’s need to control women, since exercising control over their own lives would amount to being more than a vagina/undead corpses in practice, which is what Muslim women are to be: dehumanized through silence, submission, and immobility, and living under eternal sex slavery, first under their brothers and fathers, who have ‘divine’ sanction to rape them at will (K 2.223) and then to whichever 50-year-old cousin their muhrim choose to pimp them away to under physical duress at age 5 for money.

And Irshad Maji’s tu quoque argument about ‘Italian’ honor killings is a complete misnomer. Honor killing was never an Italian phenomenon. It is a Sicilian phenomenon and Sicilians are as Arab, culturally-speaking, as Egyptians. It’s a ridiculously corrupt, extremely violent culture which, despite the presence of the Church, is completely devoid of morality. It’s an honor/shame culture of extremely misogynistic men who keep their women veiled and in near-purdah, which still has a pedophilic obsession with virginity, where inbreeding is rampant and the dowry system remains the norm. Sicilians are, compared to the rest of Europe, very lazy and resistant to change. They are Arabs for all intents and purposes.

If M. Zuhdi Jasser were not a taqiyya artist of the highest order he would have addressed the issue like someone who lives in reality and has a legitimate agenda, like the obviously deluded-to-the-point-of-mental-illness Irshad Manji, who, while crazy, completely separated from reality, and largely ignorant of Islam, is at least honest. Citing either one of them is like citing Dan Rather. Why select sources with zero credibility and dishonest or deluded agendas and no legitimate scholarship on the subject?

Sep 29, 2008 - 9:22 am 36. lgkick:

Justin,

The link you provided asserts the following:

“A manual of Islamic law certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy says that “retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.” However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” (’Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).”

This does not justify honor-killing; it only excludes the parents from death penalty if they murder their offspring. This does not mean they have not committed a sin. They have committed a major sin and their punishment is waiting for them in the next life, however the legal system cannot impose death penalty for their crime (maybe some other punishment). This specific law has nothing to do with honor-killing or whether the parents kill the offspring for sexual relationship or they just were mad at the offspring or whatever reason.

Sep 29, 2008 - 10:03 am 37. justin tabler:

Lgkick, it justifies honor killing. It underlnes the fact that women and girls have no right to life. You don’t get the death penalty under Sharia for killing anyone. You pay blood money. It excuses them from paying themselves their own blood money and it allows them to murder their daughters. It explicitly allows for honor killing. Maybe you and Irshad Manji could take a cruise together somewhere into the deep blue seas of your sicko-pervert upside-down universe of moral, ethical, legal, cultural, and intellectual relativism. What, no excuses for the Holocaust while you’re at it?

Sep 29, 2008 - 3:01 pm 38. Almighty Allah:

Schnargley, I laughed so hard I spit my beer out after reading your profile at your site. Top shelf, I highly recommend everyone check it out.

Sep 29, 2008 - 5:01 pm 39. Lynn:

lgkick; Oh please!! The record speaks for itself. Quoting the Sharia doesn’t change what really happens. In Afghanistan the young women are set on fire after being doused with gasoline for the slightest infraction. This would include incurring the mother-in-laws wrath. Where laws have been enacted against the practise of “honor killing”, they force the young women to commit suicide now. Holding a gun to a woman’s head and forcing them to leap off a building or to hang themselves is now the preferred method in Muslim countries of “honor killing”. It is a sick society.

Sep 30, 2008 - 7:52 am 40. Dom:

“My main point was that honor codes are not unique to Islam.” I don’t believe anyone said they are. Your point in meaningless.

“[A]s late as the 70s it was legal to kill an adulterous spouse and partner caught in the act in much of our South and West.” To my knowledge, it was treated as manslaughter, a lesser crime, but a crime all the same. Scroggs v. State was the first time the law came to court, and it was rejected immediately. In short, it was the law in a few places, but never used, and when it was used, it was rejected immediately. What part of this makes it something that can mitigate the crime of honor killings?

“And we could discuss American duelling over honor” Two people consenting to dual is not an honor killing. Or was the young girl in this story given a gun when she asked for it?

“But suffice it to say that “honor killings” outrage is pretty much limited to the West.” Makes me proud to be living in the west.

Sep 30, 2008 - 9:33 am 41. Major Raymond:

SCHNARGLEY wrote: “They have no appreciation for Islam, nor do they have diversity sensitivity training that enables them to look at other cultures without fear, non-judgementalism, and tolerance”.
What a classic limp-wristed, leftist, Opra-istic statement. Diversity training = forcing members of a vastly superior civilization to believe that ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL. THEY ARE NOT! The savagery promoted by Islamic radicals since the Crusades ( a response to Islamic imperialism),the Battle of Lepanto and to the present day is clear evidence of the intent and the overall derangement of this philosophy, I cannot consider it a religion. The typical liberal response to having his throat cut is to apologize for his membership in a western society. My solution, after many years in the military: nuke em all, let God sort em out!

Sep 30, 2008 - 11:26 am 42. ak:

SCHNARGLEY was in the “Towelhead and the Normalization of Sex with Children” comments spouting a defense of pedophilia. Now he/she is here defending radical Islam and honor killings. He/she dresses up both arguments as issues of personal freedom–pedophilia is sexual expression and radical Islam is a matter of religious freedom. And if you disagree, you’re a right-wing maniac trying to infringe on the rights of innocent, marginalized people.

If SCHNARGLEY is a Republican plant, he/she is doing a great job. He/she has got mindless-leftism-run-amok down pat.

Sep 30, 2008 - 1:20 pm 43. Charles R.L. Power:

It seems to me that Muhammad himself tried to protect women from easy accusations, since his own favority Aisha was known to get into questionable situations. He insisted on some unreasonable number of eyewitnesses to sexual indiscretions before anyone was judged guilty. But this evidentiary rule seems to have been inherited only by rapists, who can’t be convicted on the victim’s word, while women can be done away with with impunity with a relative acting as classical judge, jury and executioner.

Sep 30, 2008 - 1:41 pm 44. Marc Malone:

I know everything I need to know about Islam. I know it from their actions or inactions. The outcry comes from Westerners (aka, Christians) when Islamists kill their own people, even the faithful. Islamists don’t seem to give a rat’s ass. They simply don’t know it’s wrong! Some religion! It doesn’t teach or know right from wrong.

One of the great lies is the term “The Dark Ages”. Technologically, yes, it was such. Morally, it was a great period of enlightenment. Christianity spread throughout Europe, replacing Norse and druidic faiths, ending their many barbaric rites. Western culture is based on Christianity. It is because of this that we’ve become the great societies that we have. We are simply morally, culturally, economically, and militarily superior to everyone else.

Whenever we have strayed from that foundation, we have run into trouble:
Hitler suppressed Christianity and tried to revive the Norse faith;
Communism is simply the worship of Man. Communists repress Christianity;
Progressive/Liberals deride Christianity, worshipping instead new ideologies and moral equivalencies. They view science as a rebuttal against Christianity, rather than as proof of it.

Straying from Judeo-Christian beliefs always leads to chaos. Whenever church/temple attendance goes down, society’s ills increase. Someone should do a statistical study of the relationship of church/temple attendance to the “misery index”. I’m sure they’ll find that a decline in attendance leads to an increase of the other. They’ll also find that an increase in attendance soon leads to a decline in the other.

Sep 30, 2008 - 2:10 pm 45. justin tabler:

Hitler loved Islam, Marc Malone. He modeled Mein Kampf of the Koran he simplified the message so as to focus on Jews. But the Koran is basically an incredibly poorly-constructed Mein Kampf of a document (which is equally based on sick hang-ups - about pedophilia, incest, slavery, polygamy, every form of sex crime, gender apartheid, extreme and unprecedented oppression of women to the extent that they are all required to live their entire lives as sex slaves, torture, parasitism as a career, the sexual mutilation of little girls, the art of lying to everyone all the time about everything regardless of the circumstances, the mutilation of corpses, and a deep contempt for honest hard work - as it is on racist hatred, supremacy, genocide, narcissism, hypocrisy, despotism, terrorism, and totalitarianism) containing absolutely nothing but lies, errors, distortions, logical fallacies, and pure, unadulterated evil. Rad them back to back.

Hitler loved the group-think, separatist aspect of Islam, as well as the depravity, the lack of morality, the submission to authority, the abandonment of the self and individual, and the bloodlust. He wanted Germany to be like Iran, where people gather ’round to watch stonings and cheer ‘Allah-hu akbar!’ He used to bemoan the fact that he had to rule over” flabby, soporific” Christians and not brain-dead, depraved zombie Muslims.

“We do not know whether Hitler is going to found a new Islam. (He is already on the way; he is like Mohammad. The emotion in Germany is Islamic; warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with wild god). That can be the historic future.” - Karl Jung, The Collected Works Volume 18, The Symbolic Life (1939)

“Here was the new Koran of faith and war: turgid, verbose, shapeless, but pregnant with its message.” - Winston Churchill on Adolf Hitler’s autobiography Mein Kampf, in The Second World War, Vol. I

Sep 30, 2008 - 2:48 pm 46. Omar:

Marc Malone:

“Islamists don’t seem to give a rat’s ass. They simply don’t know it’s wrong! Some religion! It doesn’t teach or know right from wrong.”

__________________

Of course it does! Whatever hastens the supremacy of Allah’s divine religion on earth is good, and whatever impedes it is bad. . . . Quite simple, really.

Sep 30, 2008 - 3:57 pm 47. Kate:

Obviously, the NRA should have access to all Muslim women in the US so that they can learn of their 2nd amendment rights. A woman with a gun might just be the answer to these barbarians.

Sep 30, 2008 - 6:16 pm 48. Does Islam Justify Honor Killings? » Winds Of Jihad:

[...] friend the late Tashbih Sayyed, considers this question in an article of the same name atPajamas Media (from [...]

Oct 1, 2008 - 12:21 am 49. justin tabler:

People who devote their lives to a genocidal ideology should not be encouraged to own guns. If a Muslim broke into my apartment I wouldn’t kill him, since he and his family would consider him to be a ‘martyr.’ I would
shoot his nuts off, have him arrested, send him to prison, and then he would be deported. Plus if you shoot someone in the nuts they’ll put both their hands there, then you can shoot both hands at once and they can’t hurt you or get away so easily before you can mace them. I wouldn’t put Muslim women on a pedestal above Muslim men. They murder their own children too and they hold their daughters down during female genital mutilation, singing a sick little song about how empowering they find the experience, then they invariably pimp their dauhters into incestuous Sharia sex slavery. Plus they’re not really people. If you live your life as nothing more than a tapeworm and a vagina for Allah’s army, then that’s all you are. If they had jobs and paid taxes I would happily recognize their status as human beings, but not until that happens. They shouldn’t get to vote, own guns, or be entitled to any civil rights whatsoever. No housewife should. We were founded on the principle of ‘no taxation without representation’ and that should be a two-way street. We should also not only do away with tax breaks on behalf of dependents, but actually increase taxes on behalf of each and every dependent. You wanna fix the economy? Make those prostitues work for the economy instead of whoring their lives away in exchange for a free ride and a tapeworm’s epitaph, but I digress. They’re still supremacist, genocidal, fascist, totalitarian, inbred, incestuous sickos. They’re also more likely to have endured childhood sexual abuse, since K 2.223 explicitly allows men to rape their daughters, sisters ‘wives’ (bought sex slaves), and (abducted sex) slaves. There’s also a justification for raping one’s cousins in the 31st Surah, but I’ve never read any articles or tafsirs on it and cousins are considered potential marriage partners and are usually separated. Of course, lots of Muslim boys are sexually abused too. Childhood sexual abuse is a prerequisite for becoming a terrorist. I must admit, though, that my all-time favorite LOLperson from Pundit Kitchen is an Iraqi policewomen in a niqab doing target practice (I guess, anyway, she’s got a gun and she’s aiming) and the caption reads ‘Stone me for adultery? Not so much.”

Furthermore, in Islam, there’s literally nothing a man can do to his wife that would justify his murder. Women aren’t entitled to self-defense in Islam. Women have no self. They are property in Islam. He can cheat on her, beat her, rape her, shut her up in a locked room and starve her, and nobody is allowed to ask him about it. That’s just life for Muslim women. And if she so much as cooks a bad meal he can accuse her of adultery and get her legally killed. This is why Sharia is intolerable. This is also why women are the key to undoing Islam. Once Islam has no women to enslave, it’s over. It hinges upon supremacist thinking. Once you take away the people Muslim men can rule over, since they can’t enslave us, it’s done for. Islam is nothing but endless human rights violations against people who then turn into zombies and violate other people’s human rights, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, women, children, homosexuals, dogs, people who engage in romantic relationships indpenedently of incestuous Sharia sex slavery, people who are honest, you name it.

We shouldn’t be killing Muslim men. We should be deporting them and their entire families for treasonous sedition. We should isolate ourselves from the Muslim world unless we’re trying to prevent them from getting nukes. No military involvement on their behalf, no rebuilding their countries, no economic aid, no trade, no communication, no immigration except for religious minorities from Muslim lands, absolutely no political asylum even for ‘converts.’ Pull out of the UN so we can stop funding Hamas, and build a new international organization comprised of free-world nations worthy of dealing with. Then they’ll just all kill each other, probably Sunni on Shia, but who knows. If you force isolation upon the Muslim world they will cease to have land to conquer. No Muslim society is self-sustaining, since no totalitarian government is self-sustaining, and Muslims are never to do an honest day’s work, but rather to survive their entire lives as parasites like their Pervert. They can’t receive legitimate educations, since science and history conflict with the Koran, so they can’t compete globally. It’s not a coincidence that no Muslim has ever contributed anything of any value to this world in any way, shape, or form, and no, Avicenna was not a Muslim. They must have new cultures to parasitizes or else they cannibalize, even those which are extremely rich through geological accident, since they can’t pump a single drop of that oil out of the ground without infidel technology and manpower. Islam could undo itself, but in the meantime we should not, under anycircumstances, tolerate it. I’m fine with private Muslims who say their prayers and that’s the extent of it, even though those prayers focus on Arab supremacy, genocide, and hate, but I believe in freedom of speech. If it’s confined to being ‘religious’ (which it never really is because Islam lacks morality and theology and is therefore not a religion) and not political, and it doesn’t affect ‘marriage’ or lead to genital mutilation or violate anyone’s human rights, fine. But even mentioning polygamy should be grounds for deportation, as should that disgusting Dark-Age Nazi slave rag headscarf, which is an explicit call for genocide and is infinitely more offensive than a swastika. The French were right about that one, but the law should be expanded to make it illegal outside one’s home, not just in public buildings.

Oct 1, 2008 - 12:42 am 50. Lynn:

Justin, your diatribe is a little long and readers might not absorb it and glean the valuable insight you contribute to this topic. I’m sure your exhausted so I’ll do it for you.
From Justin:
“Plus they’re not really people. If you live your life as nothing more than a tapeworm and a vagina for Allah’s army, then that’s all you are. If they had jobs and paid taxes I would happily recognize their status as human beings, but not until that happens. They shouldn’t get to vote, own guns, or be entitled to any civil rights whatsoever. No housewife should. We were founded on the principle of ‘no taxation without representation’ and that should be a two-way street. We should also not only do away with tax breaks on behalf of dependents, but actually increase taxes on behalf of each and every dependent. You wanna fix the economy? Make those prostitues work for the economy instead of whoring their lives away in exchange for a free ride and a tapeworm’s epitaph.”

See? Well, it’s still a little lengthy but it does a better job of making your point without becoming long winded.

Oct 1, 2008 - 6:29 am 51. Omar:

It’s not the people, Justin, it’s the religion.

Oct 1, 2008 - 6:57 am 52. Marc Malone:

I never could get through reading much of the Qu’ran. Same for Das Kapital and Mein Kampf. It was like wading through a sewer. Worse. I know whereof I speak.

When I was a teenager, I had to help clear out the pipes in our septic tank when tree roots grew into them… sans gloves! I had to shovel manure of all kinds. (There really is a difference. Scary that I’m a connoseur of feces.)

Oct 2, 2008 - 2:06 pm 53. mona:

I would like to say to Justin that as a muslim woman, I am happy with my life my husband never beated me .never put me in a dark room.You are mistak, we have our own free life.I don’t know what are you talking about.And by the way I am from Egypt.I dont know why you are always talking about Egyptian people, what do you know about them?.

Oct 7, 2008 - 12:41 pm 54. Shariah Finance Watch » Blog Archive » Honor Killings and the Struggle of Moderate Islam:

[...] on Pajamas Media, Supna Zaidi of Islamist Watch addresses the Atlanta murder and July 2008 “honor killing” of Sandela Kanwal. [...]

Oct 8, 2008 - 3:41 pm 55. Persevere » Blog Archive » Does Islam Justify Honor Killings?:

[...] Sandela Kanwal wanted a divorce for unknown reasons. Maybe her husband in Chicago was a wife-beater. Maybe she just didn’t like him. We don’t know. For months, she had been trying to get her father to end her unhappy marriage and in July 2008 Sandela tried again. This time, Chaudhry Rashad strangled his daughter to death. When the police arrived, he stated that he did nothing wrong and later demanded that he be provided halal food while in jail. for more click here [...]

Oct 8, 2008 - 5:01 pm

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