Drunkblogging the McCain-Obama Bout
In the blue corner, Barack Obama. In the red corner, John McCain. Documenting the blows with a martini in hand, Vodkapundit's Stephen Green.
8:35PM Instant analysis? McCain won, but not by nearly enough to matter. He was up against a punk kid, and barely came away on points. Barely.
8:33PM McCain is answering the questions for real. I’m not sure it serves him much better than Obama’s smooth (if silly) segue.
8:31PM Obama: I ask my wife. “But I do know that I wouldn’t be standing here if this country hadn’t given me opportunity.” Which, of course, he segued into the bio part of his stump speech. Lame.
8:30PM Last question from New Hampshire: “What don’t you know and how will you learn it?”
8:29PM Put the squeeze on Iran by altering their cost-benefit analysis! We will email them Excel spreadsheets most forcefully! And maybe even if PDF format! Forcefully talking!
8:28PM Obama: “We cannot allow Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon.” So onward with those tough, direct negotiations! And he’d take away UN veto power! By… uh… not letting… the UN… um… veto stuff. And things.
8:27PM This Anglosphere proponent LOVES it when McCain talks about a “League of Democracies.”
8:26PM McCain: “We would not wait.” Although he didn’t commit US troops. Another grown-up answer. I eagerly await Obama’s next wimp-out.
8:25PM If Iran attacks Israel, would you commit troops or ask for UN approval?
8:25PM Obama: “They’re engaged in evil behavior.” But he won’t look for the evil label. McCain: Maybe. If I say yes, it might ignite a new cold war, if I say no it ignores their behavior. That’s a grown-up answer.
8:24PM Yes or No: Is Russia today an evil empire?
8:22PM Georgia wasn’t a stable situation, says Obama. His response wasn’t stable on Invasion Day, either.
8:21PM “Ukraine right now is in the sights of Vladimir Putin.” McCain just won the vote of every Ukranian immigrant in the upper midwest. It won’t win him any states there, but I’m glad he said it.
8:20PM Obama makes me want a cigarette, and not in that nice afterglow way.
8:19PM He’d twist arms in Afghanistan, too. And according to his primary debates, in Canada and Mexico. But the government of Iran gets into the Oval Office “without preconditions.” “Naif” is too kind a word for this china-shop wrecking MFer.
8:18PM Obama would twist the arm of the Iraqi government, too. Has he NO idea what stability means, or how to encourage it?
8:17PM “I’ll get Bin Laden, I know how to do it, I’ll get him, but I won’t telegraph my punches.” I would vote for, without reservations, the first candidate to admit that bin Laden is a symptom, not the disease, and that we can deal with him accordingly.
8:15PM Obama says we gave Pakistan ten billion dollars over seven years. To which a dedicated earmarker Obama must be thinking: Pikers!
8:13PM Brokaw: “I’m just the hired help.” And Team Obama is signing the checks!
8:11PM Obama just said we should have twisted Musharraf’s arm even harder, back when he was still President of Pakistan. And THAT’S how you get stability there? This man is so unprepared I’m literally frightened of when January 20 rolls around.
8:08PM If Brokaw had any shame, he’d apologize right now and turn the whole thing over to the remaining questioners in the audience.
8:07PM “What is the McCain Doctrine, if you will?” Goddamn you, Brokaw. Gwen Ifill would be ashamed to be in the same room with you.
8:06PM Did I mention I’m pissed at Brokaw right now?
8:05PM What is the Obama Doctrine When We DON’T Have a National Interest at Stake. That is the most biased, loaded, in-the-tank question I have ever heard in any debate in any election. F-ckin’ ever. Tom Brokaw just blew any pretense at neutrality.
8:04PM Shorter Obama: We’re a force for good! Except when we do stuff! And things!
8:04PM Obama looks uncomfortable and unconvincing when he’s praising the troops. Kind of like an unrepentant adulterer giving confession.
8:03PM Obama has got to stop with the heavy sighs.
8:02PM McCain just deftly reminded viewers that there is a world beyond our borders. From the first hour of the debate, you’d have never known it.
8:01PM McCain says “my friends” and PLEASE don’t take a shot. I don’t want needless deaths on that tiny little thing in my libertarian soul I call my conscience.
8:00PM Obviously, Biden doesn’t make laws in Delaware. But McCain doesn’t make laws in Arizona, which Obama just slammed him for.
7:59PM Obama just admitted that banks move to Delaware where the laws are looser. And who is the senior senator from the great state of Delaware?
7:58PM Obama: Health insurance “is a right.” We were endowed by our Creator with a really sweet no-co-pay plan from Aetna, and maybe some free speech. At least I think that’s what Jefferson wrote.
7:56PM You know how bad this debate is? I’m skipping my third martini and going straight to a double vodka rocks. Maybe a triple.
7:55PM McCain also says 95% of the American people will get something. However, he never claimed they’ll all be members of the middle class.
7:54PM McCain will use computers too! And judging by the slurping, those computers will be served with fava beans and a nice chianti.
7:52PM Obama says McCain’s healthcare plan will give with one hand and take from the other. Which might well be true. Obama’s plan, however, will give with one hand and… stuff will just appear in it. Really.
7:51PM Obama promises to lower health care costs to small business. Except for some small business, I suppose, who fall under the “Screw ‘em” policy. Oh, and he’s going to use computers!
7:50PM “Selling health care as a commodity has become a very profitable industry.” Health care ISN’T a commodity? It ISN’T an industry?
7:49PM Is anyone else getting a little creeped out by that slurping inhale McCain keeps doing?
7:48PM Brokaw can’t keep either of these guys in line. I don’t know if he’s biased, but he’s certainly not very disciplined. Ooh — there’s the bondage thing again.
7:47PM Obama: “McCain voted 23 times against alternative fuels.” Which alternatives? Burning hippies? ‘Cause I’d be pretty much in favor of that, assuming it was done far enough outside of town to keep to local noise ordinances.
7:46PM Hey, go easy on the Amiga, OK?
7:45PM McCain is doing that shorthand-speak again.
7:44PM What is Congress going to do in two years to save the planet? The questioner looks to be about 23, and just as naive as you’d expect.
7:42PM Not a knockout blow, but nice.
7:42PM McCain says, “I’ll answer the question.” Nice.
7:41PM Seriously, Obama is stumbling over some easy lines, and he seems angry. Ruffled. Is McCain under his skin?
7:41PM “A vast majority of small businesses” will pay lower taxes. And the rest? Kos said it best: “Screw ‘em.”
7:40PM Obama: “We’re going to have to tackle entitlements, and quickly.” But maybe not too soon. Maybe in my first term. Maybe not. But way soon. And did I tell you about my middle class tax cut to 110% of Americans?
7:38PM Brokaw just slapped Obama down when he asked for extra time. Obama did NOT look gracious about it.
7:36PM McCain: Obama’s tax plans are “like nailing Jell-O to a wall.” Good line, but now he’s flubbing the rest of the answer.
7:35PM Glenn Reynolds asks why he’s not getting rapid response emails from the Obama people. Hell, I don’t even get ‘em from McCain’s people.
7:34PM Random drunk question: Who makes Obama’s shirts? Very sharp.
7:33PM While Obama is sucking up to Detroit, Jennmcn asks in the comments, “Is anyone else catching the smirk on Obama’s face every time McCain speaks?” Yes, Jen, and it doesn’t do him any good at all.
7:31PM McCain is going back to re-answer questions he’s already answered. I know McCain isn’t senile, but he reminded me of someone who was.
7:30PM “What sacrifices will you ask the American people to make?” McCain says he’ll eliminate bad programs, and starts in FIRST on corrupt defense spending. Smart, smart move. Maybe his best of the night. And then? He repeated the three million dollar projector line. It was much weaker the second time around. But my second martini is just as big and strong as the first!
7:29PM Obama is still implying that he’d use a line-item veto he doesn’t possess, and that his party is against amending the Constitution to provide. Will no one call him on this?
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Stephen Green writes, broadcasts, and enjoys the occasional lovely adult beverage at the home he shares with his wife and son in Monument, Colorado.
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150 Comments
1. Vodkapundit » Debate Drunkblogging — LIVE!:[...] by Stephen Green on 07 Oct 2008 at 06:34 pm We are on the air. Er, in the pipes. Or [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:34 pm 2. Jaci:Whoo-hoo! Been looking forward to this all day, Steve.
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:41 pm 3. T.J.:I miss my Amiga 500.
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:47 pm 4. Capt Nemo:Well the CW on rightwing radio today was to get away from the Ayers issue. The left seems to agree.
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:50 pm 5. Ned:Anybody wanna place odds on the headline tomorrow…”No fireworks in debate” versus “McCain lets loose”?
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:51 pm 6. Liveblogging The Presidential Debate « Blog Entry « Dr. Melissa Clouthier:[...] the guys also liveblogging: My favorite (besides me, of course) Ann Althouse, Stephen Green and my friend, Brendan [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:51 pm 7. Jaci:Why is Brokaw moderating? Isn’t he, like, supposed to be hiding in an old folks home somewhere out of shame for some incident involving forged documents?
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:52 pm 8. Stephen Green:Jaci –
So have I. So have I.
On the other thing, Brokaw is looking pretty good these days. Not as good as Brit — but who does?
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:55 pm 9. Jules Crittenden » Gloves Off!:[...] Sun’s over the yardarm: Vodkapundit’s drunkblogging here. [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:57 pm 10. MathMom:We still have TWO Amiga 500’s. WOOT!
Oct 7, 2008 - 5:58 pm 11. Jaci:Yes, he does. He’s looking as creepily unwrinkley as Biden did last week. Not that I’m hinting at anything….
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:02 pm 12. Jaci:Isn’t it funny how that coin toss always comes up blue?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:06 pm 13. Ned:A swing and a miss by McCain…weak
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:08 pm 14. kso:Wow. McCain is throwing some punches on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:13 pm 15. BeckyJ:So, according to Obama - are the fundamentals of the economy strong?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:18 pm 16. the emotional pumpkin » Preach on, brother.:[...] Stephen Green: “We’ve got to do something about home values.” And protect retirees. And buy a bunch of mortgages back. And other stuff. And this is why I hate town hall debates — they always turn into a spending spree. filed in politics/government tagged with election 2008, presidential debates [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:20 pm 17. BJM:Woah! Deregulation?! Did the Obama express just run over Bill Clinton?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:21 pm 18. Gil Gilliam:I’ll see your Amiga 500s and raise you one original Amiga 1000 with memory upgrade personally installed by Jay Miner after a trip to Fry’s AND one Amiga 3000 with only two keycaps missing from the keyboard.
(my wife keeps telling me I have to get rid of my babies but even though I haven’t used either in forever, it just ain’t happenin’)
I keep thinking I’ll break out the 1000 someday and use it for a Firewall. That’ll puzzle ‘em for awhile.
Oh wait…there’s a debate or something going on? Sorry, I’ll shut up and drink.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:24 pm 19. Jennmcn:Is anyone else catching the smirk on Obama’s face every time McCain speaks?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:24 pm 20. ch3cooh:did obama just a) ignore entitlement reform and b) call for a line item veto?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:28 pm 21. BeckyJ:Yeah, saw that. Shades of the Gore sighing and eyerolling.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:29 pm 22. Matt, Esq.:I do not think deregulation means what Obama thinks it means.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:30 pm 23. scottst:what network are you watching Obama play the 9/11 card on? For me it’s Fox.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:31 pm 24. phil g:Obama says…and…and…and…and
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:32 pm 25. T Boyle:McCain sat down and started taking notes as Brokow was introducing he candidates to the applause of the crowd. What was he scribbling? His TO DO list?
Was he encouraging himself (YOU CAN DO THIS)?
It didn’t bode well.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:32 pm 26. BeckyJ:Did Obama just say he wanted to force the oil companies to use their land? Drill for oil? Did he tell Nancy?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:32 pm 27. Mike:What is with Obama’s hair??? Does he have mange or somethin’?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:33 pm 28. LeighG:Aren’t Japanese and German cars made here…could swear Mercedes and Honda were in Alabama, Kia in Tennessee, etc.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:34 pm 29. BabyBlue:Hey - they just mentioned that America’s all drunk. Looks like you’re not alone!
bb
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:34 pm 30. LeighG:Why doesn’t someone just say, hell let’s cut government to the bone. Essential functions only…close non-essential departments, return education to the states, return healthcare to individuals, kill the NEA.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:36 pm 31. workinwifdakids:And dammit McCain, we have already covered protectionism tonight about protecting jobs by stopping trade.
McCain: “The economy is bad.”
Obama:
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:37 pm 32. Jennmcn:I live in the Detroit Area. He’s not sucking up to me.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:38 pm 33. kso:Uh, did Obama just accuse the oil companies of sitting on property and not drilling? And did he threaten to seize their property if they don’t drill? What planet am I on?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:39 pm 34. Capt Nemo:Man, I would hate to moderate one of these things.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:40 pm 35. Antoine Roquentin:“That is not fair!”
Obama should just roll on the floor and scream like a little baby.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:41 pm 36. Angie:Obama doesn’t want to play by the rules it seems.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:42 pm 37. Jim Baker:I’m not even watching. I’m just following this blog. It is easier for me that way. I would like to list words I hate: hope, change, plans, bigoil, cronyism, and maverick. I would appreciate if you don’t pass those words along tonight. Thank you very much.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:42 pm 38. DepressedGOP:McCain is too passive. This is over. He has to bring up the Reid/Pelosi/Obama triumverate in every answer!!
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:43 pm 39. Mrs.E:The Democrats are so judgmental about how much money we should have and earn. I want to hear McCain repeat his “I want every one to be rich!” line.
Now, if a small business is successful and makes more than $250K they get hit with higher taxes. That really makes people want to grow their business!
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:43 pm 40. T Boyle:McCain hit Obama on taxes. Obama wanted to rebut. Brokow told Obama not to to adhere to the format and to answer the next question on SSI.
Obama did the insincere and cynical thing — like a petulant child — and gave an insouciant response to the Medicare question then quickly threw his cereal spoon on the floor and addressed the tax question.
He’s a pompous crouton.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:44 pm 41. wcgreen:Someone please explain to Obama the dif between computers and the Internet.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:47 pm 42. roux:Drill Baby Drill
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:47 pm 43. Max:McCain’s theme for the night: bi-partisianship. I don’t like it.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:47 pm 44. jaymaster:Oy vey….
No matter who gets elected, it appears they’ll just talk us to sleep on a daily basis.
Maybe the veeps will keep us entertained.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:47 pm 45. workinwifdakids:Tom Brokaw just told them to STFU!
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:48 pm 46. Antoine Roquentin:I’m a little biased but is McCain not kicking his ass so far tonight?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:48 pm 47. BJM:Obama’s just lying about small business taxes, look up Subchapter S at wikipedia, it allows businesses to file at individual rates to preserve capital.
What a stupid question fund garage inventors? WTF?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:49 pm 48. Steve:Take a drink everytime Obama says Government
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:49 pm 49. Capt Nemo:I thought McCain was good at these townhall debates?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:49 pm 50. Iain:Blech. While McCain reaches across the aisle to lose my vote, I’m reaching for another glass of cheap Italian red.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:50 pm 51. T Boyle:Health care a commodity?
The responses all pertain to INSURANCE and ACCESSIBILITY.
You can’t get well with either of those.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:52 pm 52. Yokes:The Teetotaler’s debate drinking game - Take a shot every time someone gets to the point.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:52 pm 53. Jim Baker:Somewhere along the information superhighway, there is presently a cluster***k. LOL
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:54 pm 54. T Boyle:Obama says we can have same health care as the House and Senate.
So when I get my brain tumor — on his watch — I can have a congregation of experts from around the country fly and meet at my house the next day to decide the best course of therapy….even if I’ve driven a young woman off a bridge and into the cold depths of the whiskey river?
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:57 pm 55. Kathy:KSO - sorry, but oil companies DO buy oil fields and sit on them. My husband worked for Texaco in Pampa TX. The oil field was bought out by another huge company (I forget which), capped the wells, and let all employees go. It happens.
Oct 7, 2008 - 6:58 pm 56. BJM:Oops! the Obama bus swerved and hit Biden on the Delaware response.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:01 pm 57. LeighG:good god…I think I don’t like them, either of them. Please…please bring on Fred Thompson or Bobby Jindal, hell get Bob Barr out there.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:01 pm 58. Rumbear:Will Obama give you a better internet server?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:01 pm 59. scottst:when I’m the moderator, when the red light goes on, the mike goes off.
scottst
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:02 pm 60. Jason:McCain’s winning on points and style so far.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:02 pm 61. LeighG:I could listen to Obama tell me that he doesn’t understand Iraq…or I could hit myself with this now half empty bottle of bourbon. The fact that I am having a tough choice on this scares me.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:02 pm 62. Jennmcn:Did Obama just say all of the banks go to Delaware because of lax regulations?
No, Obama does not want to play by the rules. He talks and talks to the point of being Wonky and just can’t be concise.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:02 pm 63. T Boyle:Are your moderators retards?
SPEED THEM UP
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:02 pm 64. Iain:“Health care should be a fundamental right”? Where does that stop? What kind of health care? Mediocre care for everybody like Canada? MRIs for all? Tummy tucks? What about other daily needs? Should the government provide them all? Food? Clothing? Housing? Oh, I forgot, we just tried that. Nice model.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:04 pm 65. LeighG:Obama just said we had to be everywhere all the time but don’t have to be everywhere by the time, but also we should be there when our allies commit their resources to areas we have not yet committed.
and McCain, not just bring our troops home with honor and victory, but with a free and democratic Iraq left behind.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:07 pm 66. T Boyle:Obama said we will “kill” Bin Laden.
Kinda severe.
Can we waterboard him first???
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:11 pm 67. roux:Why did McCain agree to the damn follow up?
Obama can’t follow the friggin’ rules.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:14 pm 68. Jennmcn:Does Obama know what a quick follow-up is?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:15 pm 69. BeckyJ:LeighG: I got dizzy at that point.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:17 pm 70. T Boyle:I’d like to ask both of them who has been doing their jobs for the last 2 years?
I can’t take 45 minutes off from work without chaos ensuing.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:19 pm 71. Iain:“Tahleebahn”? “Pahkeestahn”? I thought the goal of these things was to relate to ordinary people?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:19 pm 72. Jennmcn:Did Obama say we have to help Georgia rebuild it’s economy? What about our own?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:22 pm 73. Jennmcn:Typical Democrat throw money at the problem and hope it goes away.
Energy and Russia? I day Drill Baby, Drill ’til it’s all gone!
How many barrels is 3% of the world oil supply?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:24 pm 74. LeighG:BeckyJ, it’s the theater in the round effect, you have to have an answer for each portion of the audience…still waiting for a single answer for smaller government, for more freedom.
I do like McCain’s league of Democracies…why not also pull out of the UN
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:27 pm 75. jane g:is it just me or is this a boaring debate
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:27 pm 76. zeppenwolf:> Yes or No: Is Russia today an evil empire?
McCain is right; it’s a stupid question. “Yes or No” is for computer science, not global politics.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:27 pm 77. Bill:Obama is asked if Russia is an evil empire. He responds,”Well, they’ve done some evil things.” LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN!
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:28 pm 78. BeckyJ:I like the Israel/Iran question. O is wandering off on this one.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:29 pm 79. zeppenwolf:“What don’t you know?”
How about, “I don’t know who William Ayers is?”
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:31 pm 80. T Boyle:We should ban the Clinton hammer: gesticulating with the thumb-through-the-fist. God I hate that.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:32 pm 81. jaymaster:Neither one knows when to shut up after he has made a good point.
They take a breath, look at the clock, see they have 20 seconds left, and then follow up thier cogent point with 20 seconds of inane bullshit.
They’re both obviously senators.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:33 pm 82. T Boyle:I thought for sure that Obama would insist on a rebuttal to McCain’s closing remarks..
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:35 pm 83. Craig:I am sorry to say that John McCain is not a compelling candidate. Tonight, he is not talking to us. He is just reciting talking points. Sad!!!!
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:35 pm 84. roux:No big winner but McCain didn’t lose. Which I guess is a victory.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:36 pm 85. LeighG:How about, what I don’t know are all the answers. And because I don’t have all the answers I will get out of the way and leave those problems to the 300 million different minds of the country to craft their own solutions, to find the answers that work best for them. Where the nation needs leadership, I will act on sound principles and therefore you will be able to guess the direction in which I will proceed. As for what I will learn. I will learn how my actions help achieve the desired goals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and where they do not, modify them.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:36 pm 86. physics geek:“Came up against a punk kid.”
As will we all on Jan. 20
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:37 pm 87. Capt Nemo:If I didn’t follow politics or history, I think I’d score this for Obama.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:38 pm 88. Jennmcn:I think McCain won but was at a disadvantage that all the questions weren’t asked. Tom Brokaw was a horrible moderator because he needed to shut them up and move on!
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:39 pm 89. mph:I didn’t think McCain was very good — but it looks like Obama got killed on Intrade. Currently trading at 30/70 in favor of McCain for the debate.
http://www.intrade.com/
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:39 pm 90. phil g:I gave up…following the drunk blog…just can’t take it any longer. I’m gonna put my country first and vote against Obama.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:41 pm 91. ds:I was pretty disappointed by the debate and by McCain’s performance. It was a big bore, and McCain did not change the narrative. Palin is McCains only hope at this point.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:42 pm 92. the emotional pumpkin » My take on the debate?:[...] sure to read both Stephen Green’s drunkblogging, and the Democracy in America liveblog. filed in politics/government tagged with election [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:43 pm 93. Jay Reding.com — e:[...] Green: McCain won, but not enough to matter. Sadly, that seems [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:45 pm 94. chris:enjoyed comments, tough time getting refreshes, that’s good, you had an audien. why not switch to CBS, or else, and respond to their BS after the debate?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:45 pm 95. T Boyle:What are we drinking for dessert? Sauternes? Port? Hemlock?
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:47 pm 96. Chris in Toronto:McCain had Obama on the defense all night. I say that’s a win.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:47 pm 97. Paul B.:Pretty good debate. A lot of talking points, but some good stuff got through. I thought Mac was strong, and won fairly easily (I gave the first debate ever so slightly to O). Surprising level of attack for a town hall forum. Next few weeks are going to be intense. I think Mac going aggressive is a winner. He’s going to need it.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:50 pm 98. MathMom:There wasn’t even an OODA loop in this debate. What a total waste - I wanted to learn something tonight.
I thought Obama spent half his time restating the question, so that he could s-l-o-w-l-y come up with some lame answer. You can always tell because he does a lot of “you know”ing while he’s pulling something out of his ass.
But dammital, McCain didn’t exactly walk through the many open doors left by Obama.
God help us.
Oct 7, 2008 - 7:51 pm 99. Dennis D:Why do they keep allowing Dems to claim we RUSHED into Iraq after 911? We went directly into Afghanistan. Iraq wasn’t until March 2003 .
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:00 pm 100. Reactions to Worst. Townhall. Ever. | The Anchoress:[...] says McCain won, just barely. He might be right…but I think Obama did nothing good for himself tonight by sounding like a [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:00 pm 101. C. Benson:It was boring but also frustrating. McCain did the best he could under the circumstances. Obama has changed every thing he said in the primaries and keeps changing it every time he opens his mouth. He’s moved as close to the center as he can by lying about his own record and McCains record and what he himself believes. Its pretty damn hard to debate someone who opinions are like shifting sand, while talking to an audience that knows nothing except whats being said in the debate or what they’ve heard on the MSM (which is at this moment kissing Obama’s a$$ so hard I’m surprised he can stand up).If McCain were actually debating a coherent person with a real set of beliefs (that didn’t change from one minute to the next)and who wasn’t a compulsive liar (which McCain can’t say)it would probably be just a little bit easier. I would have felt better about the whole thing in the short term if McCain had just given his closing and then walked over to Obama and Kicked him in the #al2s.As far as I’m concerned Obama isn’t even fit to be on the same stage as McCain let alone be a Presidential candidate. We’d better not only win this election we better be sure no communist america hater ever gets this close to the Presidency again.
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:15 pm 102. JustPassingThrough:CB
Good enough. There is no way McCain can win big in an MSM moderated debate against Obama. McCain just had to not lose and he didn’t. The indications are that people are beginning to question Obama’s schtick in this last month of the election. McCain and Palin also to be sure, though to be even surer people aren’t wasting much thought on Biden. This always happens in the last month of every presidential election cycle to the challenger or the challengers if the incumbent isn’t running. Happened to Kerry, happened to both Gore and Bush in 2000. Cost Kerry the election, and Gore what should have been a sure thing.
What matters in this last month, as it has in the last month of the last few election cycles, is breaking the MSM’s hold on information. That comes down to how well McCain and Palin can expose Obama this last month outside MSM control - in ads and in speeches, not in debates. The MSM can deliver their usual 15% going into the last month, though in this cycle they’ve reached for 20%, but at least half that spread has to be a solid lead going in. They won’t keep the full 15-20 in the last month. Obama hasn’t got the 8-10% he needs to trade off against the inevitable losses to higher scrutiny this last month IF McCain and Palin work it right. Before last weekend that was a big IF. Not so big this week, because I now think it possible Palin can offset the MSM by 8-10% herself. McCain need only put them over the top. The big advantage they have this last month, and this may have been planned, is that whatever stinks that could stick to them has been thrown. Obama, not so much.
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:17 pm 103. Kevin:Obama Doctrine = Bush Doctrine?
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:17 pm 104. House of Eratosthenes:In anwering the question about intervening in countries for humanitarian reasone - didn’t Obama say, in effect, that he would have intervened to remove Saddam?
[...] Stephen Green says McCain won, but not by enough to matter. [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:18 pm 105. nlcatter:because it took time to get logistics setup
and finsih off Taliban
DUH!!
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:20 pm 106. nlcatter:already the Polls say Obama won despite just reguritating talking points
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:21 pm 107. Jim Baker:Is this a Bob Dole re-run or what? Obama is lame and stupid but McCain is a tired old man.
First things first. I will buy those two new guns I’ve been wanting, real soon!
Next, we invoke Plan B: Let these Social Democrats screw up for 4 years, nominate a better candidate, and vanquish them.
The caveat, it could get really bad in 4 years.
Palin/McCain ‘08
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:28 pm 108. Greg Holsclaw:The one thing Obama didn’t do was continue to exude the hip cool, I am the youth vote persona. I know lots of young people and his ‘politician as usual’ performance is actually a set back. Remember, the youth won’t vote for McCain, they just won’t vote.
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:33 pm 109. Chrome:The Addams Family Debate, with McCain as Uncle Fester and Obama as Lurch. Brutally boring BS at a grade-school level, so relentless I had to turn it off halfway through.
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:39 pm 110. nlcatter:holsclaw - that is a GOOD result
but sadly is not true,
Millions of new voters swell Dems rank
with youth among them
are you uneducated as Palin?
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:40 pm 111. nlcatter:Instant verdict: a no-score draw. Boring and dull and platitudinous. No heavy punches landed. The format scarcely helped. In fact it helped snuff out any threat of life or spark or conflict or, damn it, interest. And so, because of that, Obama, leading in the polls, won.
unless he eats a dead child on TV he has won.
(i plagerize)
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:45 pm 112. MarkJ:Obama showed all the perkiness of a funeral home director tonight. I suspect he’s already looked into his crystal ball and realized that even if he wins in November, he’s f***ed. Given current economic conditions, Mr. Hopenchange is most certainly going to preside over a major recession–maybe even a depression–and there won’t be any money to fund all those wonderful programs he’s promising. He won’t be able to responsibly raise taxes. He won’t be able to fire up the money printing presses to fund his programs because he’d bring on roaring inflation. He can’t let Iran get nukes, because, if he sits back and does nothing, he’ll lose the Jewish vote. He can’t let Pakistan go to hell. He can’t let the Russkis run roughshod over its neighbors. He can’t let gas prices go up. He can’t lose in either Afghanistan or Iran. &c. &c. &c.
In short, Obama knows he’s f***ed because, in the end and if he has any sense at all, his administration will look pretty much like…George W. Bush’s. Dare I add Sarah Palin won’t be going away either. Win or lose, she has already become de facto leader of the GOP. And, in the almost certain event she runs for Prez in 2012, Saracuda isn’t going to play nice and she isn’t going to take prisoners. Unlike McCain, and even Obama, she doesn’t think like a Senator–won’t that be refreshing?
And meanwhile George W. Bush, playing Texas Hold’em at his ranch, will be laughing his ass off: “Ol’ Bama thought being Prez was jest like commun’ty organizin’, didn’t he? I always knew that guy was all hat and no cattle. Now ante up!”
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:48 pm 113. Marc Malone:nlcatter - 2nd time I’ve agree with you this week (regurgitating talking points). They saved me after last time I sipped poison. I gotta finda better way to kill myself this time.
I watch on CNN, because they have all these “undecided Ohio voters”. They loved Obama’s promises, expecially the women. Drove me mad watching them drrol every time he made empty promises. Don’t people understand that the country’s broke ( and broken)?
What are you gonna cut? Oh, I’m gonna spend, because “healthcare is a national security issue”. I’m not kidding. Listen to it again. There’s your gaffe of the night: “Healthcare is a national security issue!” What?!?
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:53 pm 114. Marc Malone:Correction: that gaffe may have been made during prioritizing question.
Oct 7, 2008 - 8:59 pm 115. Marc Malone:MarkJ - great insight. Funny… especially about Bush sitting back laughing. I can really picture it.
It gets better, because all these Presidents call on previous Presidents for advice. I wish I could hear Bush’s first response to a call for help….
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:08 pm 116. nlcatter:my job is done here
palin is toast
economy reigns supreme no old leftists
bye
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:13 pm 117. Laura "Pistachio" Fitton:Why were you Twittering all alone? :-/
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:20 pm 118. kabud:>MarkJ:
Palin is just a a normal woman in a very abnormal world of degenerates that USA is turning into
You don’t need anything besides common sense to realize what is good and what is bad for America
Obama and McCain are no more then just two clowns with a very very boring acts
They both represent idiocy that became a central theme of our time
one is idiot for the left and another - for the right
when actually there is no right: everyone is on the left
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:25 pm 119. john from cinncinati:holding Obama to his word is like nailing jello to the wall. Kerry moved to the center and was shooting ducks and going to church, i thought he was George Bush. Obama sounds like he’s John Mccain. i could’ve swore Obama was tortured by the vietnamese.
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:33 pm 120. TeamPlayer:Kevin, Obama supporter here. I agree with you. Lately Obama has been uttering positions that are too open to interpretation. There’s nuanced and then there’s just plain ambiguous. I was disappointed by tonight’s performance. There are core policy issues I’m still voting for, but these events are so watered down and clearly this is was an exercise in NOT saying anything to expose oneself to attack.
Here’s a question for you…In a thriving democracy, why can’t we find a fiscally conservative, socially liberal third party?
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:38 pm 121. As Of Today, I Am No Longer Paying My Mortgage « Blog Entry « Dr. Melissa Clouthier:[...] Stephen Green believes McCain just barely won. Mr. Green, I respectfully submit that you were not drunk enough. [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 9:48 pm 122. Obligatory (and official) Obama/McCain Debate II Thread « ChenZhen’s Chamber:[...] Drunkblogging? (drink!) [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 10:16 pm 123. Marc Malone:TeamPlayer - Why don’t we have any truly functional third-party? That would prevent much of this mess. Having the balance of power would go a long way to cleaning things up… um, maybe. My problem with third parties is that, immediately, all the whack-jobs get aboard and ruin the rep before they ever get started.
Oct 7, 2008 - 10:22 pm 124. kabud:>In a thriving democracy, why can’t we find a fiscally conservative, socially liberal third party?
there are several very wrong perception mistakes here
I would not call THIS a thriving democracy.
Think of the institutional, media, financial and partisan filters there are out there to guard the political elite not to be wiped out by so many smart and decisive americans out of 300 million
The only fiscal conservatism that can and eventually will take place after the existential catastrophy we are headed into
STARTS WITH SOCIAL CONSERVATISM
Because thats the only way to motivate people for real.
Just think about it:
what kind of a motivation a homosexual can have if IT will never have children and only cares about narcissistic self-indulgence?
What kind of a motivation will be present in a f**ed up woman who had several abortions since she was 14 and can never produce a healthy or ANY child?
or a governmental employee?
or a totally freaky college professor who was brainwashed with marxism to a total utter idiocy and now he MAKES IDIOTS out of the young people
Add to this 10 million illegals, several million drug addicts, drunks, extremely overweight people IN TENS OF MILLIONS!!!
Minorities brought to USA from the most dirty and corrupted places
by diabolical politicians who CREATE future voters out of mexicans and dominicans with average IQ of like 45 or less
social liberalism means for you, yeah personally for any one of you a very real threat that in the very near future there going to be a war against us and we will lose it
And social liberals will come here on many military boats: from China mostly. But not only. They have MANY people and access to MANY boats
So those who still be alive here will have to
kill all social liberals before the boats will arrive, so the traitors will not sabotage our defense
well, dont you just want to wake up in a world were all the above is only in the movies
BUT IT IS FOR REAL.
So make your choice:
either you stay social liberal and will probably have to die soon because you are not the one who can survive and protect yourself and others
or become a normal common sense person and join the resistance
it is getting to it: the resistance. They are coming. All this is no coincidence with elections, crisis, war in Georgia)))
It is the exact strategic sequence that was drawn by Lenin 100 years ago
and here they are: they waited for the big depression, accumulated enormous amount of nukes and bioweapons
social liberals were helping them, of course, because idiocracy is so vast these days
and their timing is superb
So, social conservative, the bell tells for you
Oct 7, 2008 - 10:27 pm 125. Bud:Somebody should tell McC that the “my friends” schtick gets tiresome when it’s used as a verbal salutation for almost every answer.
Oct 7, 2008 - 10:45 pm 126. Christine:Stephen Green,
Keep drinking the martinis because I don’t think you have that many brain cells left to lose anyway. What an idiot!
Oct 7, 2008 - 11:15 pm 127. Consensus On Obama McCain Debate: McCain Didn't Get Needed "Game Changer":[...] Media’s Stephen Green did his famous live blogging. His conclusion: 8:35PM Instant analysis? McCain won, but not by nearly enough to matter. He was up against a punk [...]
Oct 7, 2008 - 11:27 pm 128. Marc Malone:Bud - They do tell him, but he can’t help himself. He’s an old guy, and they used to say that when he was a kid. It’s one of the reasons he turns off younger people, because they simply don’t relate.
I have had to work to change that in myself (with other words). I’m 47, but my folks were born in McCain’s time. I learned much of my language from them. I never picked up much on the language of my generation. Groovy and far-tou left me cold.
It just needs to be explained to people, so they can learn to see past it. Someday, you, too, will speak in an archaic fashion, if you live so long.
Oct 7, 2008 - 11:52 pm 129. Kallie Erasmus:You have got to be kidding!
Even from half a world away it was clear the McCain took a pasting. Obama had more style, more substance, more gravitas and was more Presidential by a country mile.
America deserves - and needs - better than a grumpy old man and a frumpy housewife sidekick who needs to be babysat all the time.
Oct 7, 2008 - 11:56 pm 130. Second Debate Points « Quipster:[...] Pajamas Media, great point by point walk through, Drunkblogging the McCain-Obama Bout. [...]
Oct 8, 2008 - 1:05 am 131. Marc Malone:Right, Kallie, you’re objective. I could tell when you referred to Gov. Palin as a frumpy housewife. Gov. Palin is a beautiful woman even at 44 after 5 kids. Jealous much?
What else? Style? Oh, that’s important.
Substance? Lied his butt off. His programs simply don’t work when you crunch the numbers. How’s he gonna pay for all this spending? Oh, his proposals are a net tax decrease. Riiiight.
Gravitas? All his foreign policy was a mess. We don’t defend Israel, right away? We attack our ally, Pakistan? (Note: The President cannot declare war. Only Congress can. If the President were to do such a thing, he would be impeached.) No answer to whether Russia is an evil Empire. McCain was the grownup there. “If I say, yes, then we re-launch the Cold War. If I say, no, then we ignore their actions.” No solutions for Afghanistan. Stop genocide? His answer sounds just like “Bush Doctrine”. McCain, again the grown-up: First, do no harm!
More Presidential? Watch again, and watch Obama’s face while McCain speaks. See all the sourness, there. Is McCain grumpy? Yep. These are turbulent times. It’s a time to be a little upset, like the rest of America. I’d hate for him to be placid.
You saw what you wanted to see. Obama’s an empty suit. When have you ever seen him laugh, even once? He makes sarcastic jokes, and smiles in a high-school way, but he never laughs good-naturedly. He makes no self-deprecating jokes as McCain often does. You think he’s great, but he is so clearly NOT a nice guy! Better take another look. Look for a real smile. The truth will hit you like a bolt from the blue.
Oct 8, 2008 - 1:10 am 132. Belmont Club » The second debate:[...] Stephen Green writes, “Instant analysis? McCain won, but not by nearly enough to matter. He was up against a punk kid, and barely came away on points. Barely. McCain is answering the questions for real. I’m not sure it serves him much better than Obama’s smooth (if silly) segue.” This is the how some viewers would have preferred the debates to have gone. Read | Comments [...]
Oct 8, 2008 - 2:28 am 133. Jeff:Marc–
Great point about Obama’s smile. I’ve known guys like this, guys who don’t know how to laugh or to poke a little fun at themselves. I wouldn’t want them as a guest for supper, much less sitting in the White House.
Oct 8, 2008 - 2:42 am 134. charlie6969:Wow. Were you guys watching the same debate that I was?
You must be REALLY drunk!
you can’t change a mind that is closed off from reality, I guess.
Oct 8, 2008 - 4:54 am 135. Emmanuel Winner:“Brokaw: “I’m just the hired help.” And Team Obama is signing the checks!” Brokaw was direct liason with McCain for this, has been McCain’s close friend for decades, probably advised McCain on the format and received advice in return, repeatedly chided Obama for going over time while allowing Mccain to do so with impunity, repeatedly thanked McCain for his comments without thanking Obama once. Stephen, you’re a liar. No further reason to read your blog.
Oct 8, 2008 - 4:55 am 136. Webloggin » Bloggers React to the Debate:[...] Stephen Green says McCain won, but not by enough to matter. [...]
Oct 8, 2008 - 7:05 am 137. Jim Baker:Self depreciation is not an art that is practiced or appreciated by the humorless political crowd. Every self-depreciating attempt at good humor from George Bush has been interpreted to mean he is stupid like a chimpanzee. Why would any politician want to be called stupid by the stupid because he has a self-depreciating sense of humor. I am sick of all the Bush bashing I have witnessed, especially when I am forced to seev what is to come next. That is why I couldn’t watch this debate!
Oct 8, 2008 - 7:48 am 138. Optimist Primed:I love you T Boyle, I am going to call people Pompous Croutons from now on!!!
Oct 8, 2008 - 7:56 am 139. nlcatter:obama won saith the people
so you arew still wrong
Oct 8, 2008 - 8:17 am 140. Bob Burns:Looks like you may have had one martini too many.
Obama “won” by every reputable poll in the nation.
There’s nothing more pathetic than watching a , grumpy, doddering old codger shuffle about the floo, all the while being visually compared to a young fellow in the prime of his life and mental powers.
It really was sad…
Oct 8, 2008 - 9:36 am 141. Pajamas Media » PJM Political 10/8/08: Debate Wrap-Up, Plus Life At The Top–And The Bottom:[...] postmortems on Tuesday’s presidential debate, featuring host Steve Green (fresh off his drunkblogging duties), James Lileks, Jennifer Rubin, Pajamas’ DC editor (who also wrote up the debate for Pajamas); [...]
Oct 8, 2008 - 11:53 am 142. kabud:Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll:
Obama 47%, McCain 45%
The telephone tracking poll shows neither candidate with a clear advantage in the national horserace
UTICA, New York - The race for President of the United States remains far too close to call between Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain as both candidates head toward the finish line, a recent Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby daily tracking telephone polls shows.
Data from this poll is available here
The survey, including a three-day sample of 1,220 likely voters collected over the previous three days - approximately 400 per day from Oct. 5-7, 2008 - shows that Obama holds a slight advantage amounting to 1.9 percentage points over McCain. This represents a bit of a recovery by McCain, who had been sliding in some polls before his running mate, Sarah Palin, put in a strong performance in her one and only debate performance last Thursday.
Three Day Tracking Poll
10-7
10-6
Obama
47.1%
47.7%
McCain
45.2%
45.3%
Others/Not sure
7.7%
7.0%
The Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby poll, was conducted before Tuesday’s Obama-McCain debate. It was performed by live telephone operators in Zogby’s in-house call center in Upstate New York, included a total of 1,220 likely voters nationwide, and carries a margin of error of +/- 2.8 percentage points.
Candidates Doing Well Among Their Own Party Members
The two candidates are doing well at attracting support from their own partisans - Obama is winning 84% of the Democratic Party support and McCain is winning 85% of the Republican Party support - but Obama has the edge among independent voters. He leads McCain among independents, 48 to 39%.
Obama wins support from a slightly higher percentage of conservative voters than McCain is winning from liberal voters, but the advantage is small.
Daily Tracking Continues
This daily tracking telephone poll will continue each day until the Nov. 4 election, keeping in touch with the daily twists and turns in the race for the White House. The running poll of about 1,200 likely voters consists of three days of polling - about 400 from each of the last three days. With each new day of polling that is folded into the poll, the oldest third of the survey is replaced with the fresh data, so the poll “tracks” movements and events in the campaigns. Keep up to date every day by visiting http://www.zogby.com.
For a complete methodological statement on this survey, please visit:
http://www.zogby.com/methodology/readmeth.dbm?ID=1341
Oct 8, 2008 - 2:03 pm 143. Marc Malone:Cut McCain some slack for shuffling about the floor.
First, he couldn’t sit down, because his chair was too tall for him. Sneaky danged thing to do to him.
Second, the place was freezing. All the reporters were talking about it. When you have a lot of old wounds, that environment is murder! it’s why old folks retire to sunny states.
McCain was really in pain. He often had his hand extended to the back of his chair. That’s to shift some of the weight off some sore spot. Sometimes he was wandering about the stage area. If you stay still in that environment, your aches and pains get much worse, and old joints freeze up. He was really toughing it out. I know from experience.
Oct 8, 2008 - 2:09 pm 144. Marc Malone:charlie6969 - Yes, we were watching the same debate, but our criteria are different. A clue as to your criteria is your moniker. How juvenile is the 69 thing?
Oct 8, 2008 - 2:12 pm 145. kabud:Hey McCain!!!
TALK TO AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!!
STOP THE BAILOUT!!!
BE A MAN!!!
Oct 8, 2008 - 2:58 pm 146. Believer:Marc Malone - thanks for the added insight. I knew old wounds - not properly attended/healed for years - kept him from looking as ‘elegant’ as the superficial Left prefer. But I think you’re right about additional efforts to exacerbate his discomfort and deceive the public.
Newsweek magazine has hit Sarah Palin equally hard with its latest cover of her. Trying its best to make a beautiful woman less attractive. I hope Americans become aware of what’s going on and revolt. In huge numbers. Every media outlet engaging in biased behavior like these examples should go under. No credibility remains.
Oct 8, 2008 - 3:09 pm 147. Marc Malone:Part of the problem is Jeffrey Immelt of GE. I understand they own Newsweek, Time, NBC, MSNBC, and several other things belike. Info may not be exactly right, nor current, but I believe it is. Too lazy to check. GE no longer a Fortune 500 Blue-chip stock. Recently downgraded. I kind of discount their polling, too, as a result.
Oct 9, 2008 - 1:14 am 148. Richard:Stephen Green must have been on a different planet watching reruns of “Days of our Lives”. He certainly wasn’t watching the debate, or he would have seen a grumpy old man, lurching around in an intellectual fog, trying to give coherent answers. But, the anti-Obama attack goons were out in full force, trying to spin a McCain defeat into a victory. I watched Hannity for a little while, but his bigotry made me sick. What really pains me is that I am a conservative, who is well to the right of McCain, and he is the only “conservative” choice I have. No thanks!. I will sit this one out, because McCain, as President, will be far more dangerous for America than Obama.
Oct 9, 2008 - 1:55 am 149. Agnes:OPEN CHALLENGE TO THE MEDIA AND PRESS!
Obama’s Hidden Records
1. Occidental College records — Not released
2. Columbia College records — Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper — ””not available””
4. Harvard College records — Not released
5. Selective Service Registration — Not released
6. Medical records — Not released
7. Illinois State Senate schedule — ””not available””
8. Law practice client list — Not released
9. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate — Not released
10. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth — Not released
11. Harvard Law Review articles published — None
12. University of Chicago scholarly articles — None
13. Record of baptism– Not released or ””not available””
14. Illinois State Senate records–””not available””
Add to that, how did he pay for college? How did he go from Occidental to Columbia, who got him in? How was he made Prez of the Harvard Law Review without witting any laws!!!! Or an article even.
Oct 9, 2008 - 11:05 am 150. charles:Obama’s tax plan will destroy the Social Security system.
Obama says his income tax plan will lower taxes for 95% of Americans. There is just one problem with this, 40% of Americans already pay no income tax. Obama’s response to this is that these people pay Social Security tax. Well, that’s not income tax, but a contribution to their retirement plan. So if he wins and implements his tax plan, for the first time in the history of Social Security, 40% of the people who will get retirement benefits will have paid nothing for them. Social Security will then loose all pretext of being a retirement plan, and will become a national welfare program.
This will cause Social Security to lose public support in a massive way. Leave Social Security contributions out of income tax plans. If you take some peoples income taxes to pay others Social Security taxes, Social Security will be destroyed forever.
http://strategicthought-charles77.blogspot.com/2008/10/obamas-tax-plan-will-destroy-social.html
Oct 22, 2008 - 12:37 pm