Pajamas Media

43 Comments

1. Locomotive Breath:

It’s my understanding that the cops were called some time after the party when an incoherent and apparently drunk Mangum refused to get out of the car of fellow stripper Roberts in the parking lot of a grocery store. Since they could do nothing with Mangum, the cops took her to a psych facility for an involuntary commit until she dried out. During the admit process, the staff person asked Mangum if she had been raped (you’re not supposed to do that). Seeing her way out of the involuntary commit, Mangum said yes. That got her out of the psych facility and over to Duke hospital.

Aug 27, 2008 - 2:37 am 2. Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:

Good Lord, what’s next?

A John Edwards tome entitled John Edwards: An American Father’s Lessons for American Men?

Aug 27, 2008 - 6:04 am 3. Mary Grabar:

I predict that this book will show up on college reading lists, most assuredly in women’s studies and English, also in sociology and social work. It will be assigned summer time reading for high school students and incoming college freshmen. Mangum will hit the college campus speaking circuit and may tour with such acts as the Sex Workers Show, now about to visit college campuses for the third year, I think.

Aug 27, 2008 - 6:04 am 4. The Duke Non-Rape Non-Victim’s Story — Dean’s World:

[...] How sad. [...]

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:09 am 5. jvon:

I think those boys just figured out how to pay their legal bills off, and possibly for college. Guys, please, go get yourselves (more) lawyers. Don’t let that beast of a woman keep the money from this book. If she pulls this off, I hate to think of what kind of behavior it will encourage.

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:12 am 6. Mike T:

Mary,

If those feminists had any sense–which they don’t–they would use her case as a case study in how crying rape when it didn’t happen hurts legitimate rape victims by creating cynicism. One of the ironies with feminists, is that they don’t realize that the common attitude that even false rape claims help women by making men feel the pain of rape victims will have a very similar outcome to what happened when blacks were locked away on flimsy charges–leading up to mostly black juries nullifying criminal charges out of spite.

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:18 am 7. Evil Pundit:

This woman has harmed not only the men she falsely accused, but any woman who was really raped as well.

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:24 am 8. Paul From Hamburg:

When I read the paragraph here, my first thought was “Don’t jump to conclusions. It is possible that the book would not attempt to defend the original charge but will portray Mangum as an equal victim of a corrupt prosecutor.” That thought was wrong. The complete press release clearly gives the game away. It is clear that they intend to portray the exoneration of the Duke students as a mere technicality.

I love this part: “Crystal Magnum [sic] is donating one dollar from the purchase of each book to help battered women.” I would paraphrase that as: “The weasels who are publishing this book will take their full cut, but the feeble attempt to de-odorize this pile will be funded by Mangum.”

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:34 am 9. Sandra:

That is truly amazing. That tramp nearly ruined the lives of those three young men – put them and their families through hell and now expects to make money off of the misery she caused? You can’t teach an old hooker new tricks…but she certainly knows how to turn one. Those young men will go on to be successful while she will continue to scurry around with a low level existence. I expect to see her on Oprah, by the way. The really sad part of it is that the faculty at Duke will probably enshrine this fictional tome as part of some course curriculum. I would bet money on it.

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:34 am 10. Chuck Pelto:

TO: La Shawn, et al.
RE: In a Sane World….

….this woman would be on trial for false accusations and lying to law enforcement officers.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 27, 2008 - 8:43 am 11. Mary Grabar:

Yes, Mike. Logic is not valued much; in fact it is seen as part of the evil Western hegemony (many articles written on that). The feminists will be crying along with Ms. Mangum. In fact, comments like yours (coming as they do from a man) will add up to the evidence indicting the Western phallogocentric power structure that victimized Ms. Mangum.

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:11 am 12. Jim:

Where’s Mary Jackson with a comment on this article? Surely she must have something to say.

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:21 am 13. Maura:

She not only hurt the three boys she accused; she hurt that entire lacrosse team. Remember, they had the rest of the season cancelled.

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:31 am 14. Parabellum:

“alleged accuser”?

How the hell can someone be an alleged accuser?

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:38 am 15. Bugs:

Mary – Beat me to the prediction. This will be peddled as a different “narrative” from a non-white, non-male “voice.” Which it is, I guess. Some people study these things. I have no problem with that if the text is treated impartially as an artifact of a particular person, place, time, social system, whatever. Unfortunately, many scholars will use this text merely to bash Western or American culture, history, and politics.

I agree with Locomotive Breath’s summary. I imagine this kind of thing happens frequently, but not with such disastrous consequences or so much publicity. Pro, possibly under the influence, makes accusations; cops check out accusations; cops make an arrest or decide the charges are unfounded; case closed. It was just the convergence of poor black victim, rich white perpetrators, and crusading prosecutor that made this case explode.

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:55 am 16. MarkD:

Competition for Nancy Pelosi’s bestseller.

/snarky comment

Aug 27, 2008 - 10:23 am 17. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Mary Grabar’s Mentality

….comments like yours (coming as they do from a man) will add up to the evidence indicting the Western phallogocentric power structure that victimized Ms. Mangum. — Mary Grabar

I’m reminded of the brittle, militant feminist in Legally Blonde.

Did she ever try to have her school’s semsters system changed to ovumesters?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Don't be a sexist; broads hate that.]

Aug 27, 2008 - 10:24 am 18. Mike T:

In fact, comments like yours (coming as they do from a man) will add up to the evidence indicting the Western phallogocentric power structure that victimized Ms. Mangum.

Mary, it’s terms like that make me deeply “anti-intellectual” in that I tend to despise “intellectuals” because they’re frauds. Anyone (not saying you, here) who can use a term like “phallogocentric power structure” or “heteronormative” with a straight face deserves to be treated with the same intellectual respect as a retarded child throwing a temper tantrum and drooling all over themselves.

Sociology is largely the realm of people who want to use complex jargon and pondering facial expressions to look like the men and women of intellectual depth that they aren’t.

Aug 27, 2008 - 10:26 am 19. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Parabellum
RE: How?

How the hell can someone be an alleged accuser? — Parabellum

Simple.

[1] Use double-speak.
[2] Take English lessons from Bill Clinton.
[3] Make up words that people don’t understand.
[4] When people question you about items 1-3 (above), tell them they are uneducated.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education. -- George Bernard Shaw]

Aug 27, 2008 - 10:28 am 20. Chill E. Dogg:

can’t we all agree that Ms. Mangum’s book is really a cry for help…?

Aug 27, 2008 - 11:09 am 21. Self-hating boomer:

“alleged accuser”?

Accusation is a social construct. Does anyone really know what accusation is? What she did was more like an alternative narrative.

After all, the gang of 88 quite explicitly stated that their guilt and innocence was irrelevant to whether or not they should be convicted, because there was a “larger truth”.

With a larger truth governing, whether or not she actually alleged anything is unimportant.

Make sense?

Aug 27, 2008 - 11:11 am 22. Self-hating boomer:

La Shawn, since the whether or not CM actually made any accusations seems to be in question, perhaps the title of the story needs to be changed to “Alleged Duke Rape Accuser Peddles Her Sob Story”.

/Sarc

Aug 27, 2008 - 11:17 am 23. Laurie:

Am i the only person who thinks Mary is being hilarious?
I am a 50 year old broad who actually worked with chain-smoking, brain-dead jerks who patted my bottom and called me “honey” when I was a 20 year old working girl — ewwww — I can still recall the unwelcome shoulder rubs from married men — and back then you had to tough it out or leave. So if anyone has the right to be overly sensitive to a male-dominated society, it’s me. Chill out, you phallogocentric wankers. Nothing more vulnerable than a sexist male.

As for this hooker — we should tag her and set her loose in the jungle to be hunted for sport.

Aug 27, 2008 - 11:32 am 24. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Laurie
RE: Grabar Humor?

Am i the only person who thinks Mary is being hilarious? — Laurie

Could be. But sarcasm doesn’t come across well in this media, unless you use a smiley, i.e., ;-P.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Sarcasm helps you avoid telling people what you really think of them.]

Aug 27, 2008 - 11:52 am 25. ent:

“Like so many of us, Crystal has made mistakes and has struggled to make amends.”

Sruggled to make amends?? NAME ONE.

Aug 27, 2008 - 12:20 pm 26. Mary Jackson:

Where’s Mary Jackson…

I’ve only just spotted this. I’ve been too busy womaning the barricades and plotting the feminist revolution.

Here’s what I think – this scheming tart should be prosecuted and banged up for at least five years. And the prosecutor for ten. A woman who made a false accusation in the UK was recently jailed for a year.

Making money out of her crime is doubly disgusting. Whatever the book says, it is disgusting. Even if she’s sorry – you shouldn’t make money out of remorse, but quietly go and stew in it.

I hold no brief for women who make false rape accusations – I just don’t think that it’s that common, or that it is the main problem when it comes to rape cases, which is guilty men getting off. And I certainly take issue with the glee with which the Mac Donalds of this world seize on this case as if it were proof that “slutty” women are liars. (Are “slutty” men – if such a word were used about men – liars?)

But yes, Crystal Magnum – I know it’s Mangum – but Magnum is better – can pop her cork and fizz off.

Aug 27, 2008 - 12:52 pm 27. davod:

The players should sue her for the profits from the sal of the book.

Aug 27, 2008 - 4:12 pm 28. KansasGirl:

Heh Laurie, I wouldn’t consider you a working girl. Your term “broad” is accurate. I bet you have a great life.

Aug 27, 2008 - 4:59 pm 29. The Monster:

Cut Mary G. some slack, and read the person/voice in which she writes:

The feminists will be crying along with Ms. Mangum. In fact, comments like yours (coming as they do from a man) will add up to the evidence indicting the Western phallogocentric power structure that victimized Ms. Mangum.

Everything she says here is in third person and/or passive voice. She is describing exactly how the leftists will respond, and she’s right. The only thing I questioned at all was the word “phallogocentric”, so I googled it. Sure enough, it’s a Jacques Derrida neologism, which nails it for me. Keep your eyes open, and everything she says will turn out to be true.

Aug 27, 2008 - 9:03 pm 30. Jim:

“(Are “slutty” men – if such a word were used about men – liars?)”

They absolutely are – about how many women they lay, about how good in bed they are, on and on. But that doesn’t prove that slutty women are liars or that this or that rape accusation is false.

And this case did not turn really on Crystal Magnum’s sluttiness in the press. The main theme naturally was the racial politics. In the blogosphere the bigotry of the university faculty was a major issue. But the accuser’s character, which other than being a liar who intended to imprison three innocent people isn’t that bad, was not much of an issue.

What proves if a rape accusation is false is an investigation of the alleged crime. If it turns out no rape occurred, then it is time to investigate the accusation to see if it was made in good faith. This holds for any accusation, whether of robbery, DV or anything else. False accusations are a method of harassment. People can misidentify their attackers, they can have miscommunicated consent (I don’t mean that you can miscommunicate non-consent; you don’t have to communicate that as it should be the default. But you can communicate consent despite your actual intention.) But when someone, knowingly makes a false staement under oath, that is a crime that corrupts the entire legal system, and the state should land on that person.

What proves the frequency and scale of false accusations is surveys of prosecutors and police departments’ records. One female prosecutor in Manhattan said that she estimated that 40% of the rape accusations she dealt with were false. O

“Here’s what I think – this scheming tart should be prosecuted and banged up for at least five years. And the prosecutor for ten.”

Five years is on par with what a first time conviction for rape brings in a lot of places. Surprise – we actually agree on that point after all. And we also agree that the prosecutor needs to go away for longer. He was the real culprit here because he was not only negligent in pursuing the case on shaky grounds, but in this case he was venal. Prosecutors in North Carolina are elected officials and in his heavily black district he used this case as a political move.

Aug 28, 2008 - 8:36 am 31. Danny:

The feminist reaction will be one of two things:

A: The ones that will twist reality to make Crystal the victim in all this. These feminists will also bend backwards to minimize the fact that those three guys are the real victims. Such minimalization will include claiming that “only 2% of rape reports are false”, “the real victims of this are the women that were really raped who will read this story and become too scared to speak out”, and “being falsely accused of rape isn’t as damaging as actually being raped.”

B: Some will have the sense to realize how unfair it would be to try to make Crystal the victim in all this and admit (probably grudgingly) that those three men are indeed the real victims. They will proceed to remain totally silent because “there are no victims” in this case or shrug it off as a men’s issue.

And we all know that her plan to donate $1 of each book sale is her attempt at gaining sympathy. That alone (nevermind the fact that she is s liar) is reason enough for me to buy it. Crystal should be ashamed of herself for using the pain and suffering of REAL victims as a selling point of her web of lies. I’ll just look for a used copy somewhere.

Aug 28, 2008 - 9:19 am 32. Mary Jackson:

One female prosecutor in Manhattan said that she estimated that 40% of the rape accusations she dealt with were false.

Not enough evidence, I’m afraid.

But even if that is true, 60% are true. And of those, very few (5% or so in the UK) result in a conviction.

Of the 40% – if that figure is true – falsely accused, how many were convicted. Very, very few. One is too many, of course.

Of the true allegations, how many were acquitted. Very, very many. One is too many, of course.

False accusations are not the main problem.

You are right to focus on the racial element. If the alleged rapists had been black and the alleged victim white – statistically far more likely – would the case have got this far?

Aug 28, 2008 - 3:18 pm 33. Danny:

You are right to focus on the racial element. If the alleged rapists had been black and the alleged victim white – statistically far more likely – would the case have got this far?
Honestly, I think Al Sharpton would be organizing a march through the streets of Durham to get them out of jail.

The racial angle is worth mentioning but that does not change the fact that this woman was able to blatantly lie about being raped, drag three innocent kids through the mud, and then not only get away with no charges but also getting a book deal. The racial angle does not negate that the gender angle.

Frankly I’m still waiting for her get an exclusive interview on Oprah so that she pull a Mary Winkler and tell the horrible story of how those three animals raped her.

Aug 28, 2008 - 4:52 pm 34. ddc:

Victims and lessons. As much as the men and perhaps a few women here would rather not think about what brought this woman to the frat house that night, we should. How is society failing women that they find themselves needing to sell their bodies. what was her life leading up to that day. I’m not looking to excuse her from lying. but for all intents and purposes it had been said she was mentally ill and thus believed her own story. the larger culprit her was Nyfong. He failed his client and failed the justice system.

These men from Duke sought to “buy” this woman to do whatever they paid her to do chances are they would never have been in such a situation. Hopefully their families imparted this to them. And perhaps after the ordeal, which thankfully turned out in their favour, they were asked by families to think about their intended “use” of the woman they purchased that night and maybe even asked to think about women who would sell themselves and consider what must have led her to such a life which no doubt consisted of more than just stripping for money.

It is comforting to know that these guys felt compassion towards her after it all. Their lives will go on with these lessons learned. And hopefully this woman will get the help she needs so that she can have a chance for some kind of normal life outside selling herself.

Based on her apparent mental illness it’ll be interesting to read an unbiased review of this woman’s story when it hits the stands. Maybe she’ll have a lucid moment where she even offers an apology.

Aug 28, 2008 - 8:44 pm 35. AnnieB:

I wonder if the book will state – for the record – that the ‘rape’ never happened?

*cricket chirp*

Just asking!

Aug 28, 2008 - 9:32 pm 36. Jim:

“Not enough evidence, I’m afraid.
But even if that is true, 60% are true.

You’re right. It’s one remark by one prosecutor in one jurisdiction, howeverlarge that jurisdiction happens to be. What it will take is a nationwide study. Maybe DOJ has done something on this.

The Innocence Project is a nationwide effort,and rape convictions are obviously one of the areas where they are active because of the emotionalism and sometimes the racism asscoiated with these cases. They would have some stats, but of course, they can get people cleared only in cases where the vidence has been saved.

Your comment about the 60% is also true. And the real point is that if the stats were that only 5% of accusations are true, if you happen to be one of those 5%, you are a crime victim, there is a criminal who shouyld be punished, and the other 95% are irrelevant.

“Of the 40% – if that figure is true – falsely accused, how many were convicted. Very, very few.”

That probably varies widely across the Anglosphere. You in Britain are reported to have a very low conviction rate. Rape gets prosecuted in my part of the world very vigorously, the prosecution has certain preporgatives with regard to rules of evidence that it doesn’t have in other cases, and the prison population has a fair percentage of rapists.

“If the alleged rapists had been black and the alleged victim white – statistically far more likely – would the case have got this far?”

Generally no, not nowadays – and certainly not in this particular jurisdiction. But in the same way men are expected to make up for centuires of oppression they are to have inflicted on women, why shouldn’t white women have to make up for centuries of oppression they certainly did visit on black men? Because it’s absurd and repugnant, maybe?

ddc,

“How is society failing women that they find themselves needing to sell their bodies.”

No, how are SOME women failing themsleves to the point that their bodies are all they have to sell? Plenty of women with fewer options don’t prostitute themselves. Besides, it’s her body; who are you or any of us to say she can do with her body? In any case, she didn’t sell her body, she only rented it temptorarily, and calling it a sale is a grossly insensitve comparison to slavery, in North Carolina of all places.

“These men from Duke sought to “buy” this woman to do whatever they paid her to do chances are they would never have been in such a situation.”

In other words, she was taking their money. Who was really using whom?

“the larger culprit her was Nyfong. He failed his client and failed the justice system.”

Absolutely he is the worst culprit here. He didn’t just fail her, he used for his own ends. His big mistake was believing her when her stroy was flaky form the beginning.

Aug 29, 2008 - 8:54 am 37. ddc:

Jim

1. most women who end up as prostitutes (if they aren’t forced by traffickers) have been abused sexually, with much of the abuse going un-reported. That is not them failing themselves. That is society failing to protect them.

2. without the demand, there is no supply. this goes to the larger issue of human sex trafficking.

3. Nyfong failed her by using her – as per your own words.

Aug 29, 2008 - 9:10 am 38. Jim:

ddc,

1. T hemajority of street prostitutes, which are probably the majority of all prostitutes, may or may not have been abused – since you don’t specify what kind of abuse you mean, it’s hard to tell. Do you have information to back up your assertion? It’s sounds reasonable to me, bt we need actual facts about actual people. Human trafficking is different but even more horrific. There it is usually a form of kidnapping based on luring wit the offer of jobs (Russians, etc.) or by menas of fangled up gambling debts (Koreans).

2. True but apply that logic to drugs, or alcohol, or for that matter any other vice such as consumerism and meat-eating. I don’t see any particular connection here with human trafficking, but I do see an issue of free commerce between adults and forced labor and of where to distinguish between the two, and come to think of it, that is a crucial issue in human trafficking.

3. He is so despicable that his name may enter the language to describe his behavior.

Aug 29, 2008 - 10:47 am 39. ddc:

a good majority (who freely became prostitutes and were part of this small study) were abused. http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm Human trafficking is all a part of the same thing. It’s all about the selling of women for entertainment. I really don’t think it should be seperate. that’s just my opinion however. There’s poverty issues related to women either going into or being forced into prostitution. there are educationally issues, i.e. girls with learning disabilities are less aware-more naive to being “lead,” there’s drug addiction, single parenthood.

Then of course there are the educated women who are the high class call girls of which the Duke case was not about. These boys bought a mentally ill bargain basement stripper and not the $2000 per night call girl. Spitzer’s call girl, by family and friend’s account herself had been the victim of sexual abuse as a child. Sex work is not something any woman wants to do.

I sincerely hope Nyfong is never premitted to practice law again.

Aug 29, 2008 - 2:31 pm 40. George Bruce:

Mary Jackson:

Here’s what I think – this scheming tart should be prosecuted and banged up for at least five years. And the prosecutor for ten. A woman who made a false accusation in the UK was recently jailed for a year.

Making money out of her crime is doubly disgusting. Whatever the book says, it is disgusting. Even if she’s sorry – you shouldn’t make money out of remorse, but quietly go and stew in it.

Good for you, Mary.

What do you think of Sarah Palin, btw? I’m besotted.

Aug 29, 2008 - 5:49 pm 41. Michael B.:

Hello everyone. I just need to say a few words on this because I have seen this type of comment since the case started. And that is something what bbc said (and Im not trying to single out ddc as I have heard this comments for so many men and women.)
“Victims and lessons. As much as the men and perhaps a few women here would rather not think about what brought this woman to the frat house that night, we should. How is society failing women that they find themselves needing to sell their bodies. what was her life leading up to that day. I’m not looking to excuse her from lying. but for all intents and purposes it had been said she was mentally ill and thus believed her own story. the larger culprit her was Nyfong. He failed his client and failed the justice system.”
When I hear something like this I always wonder how many women and sorority’s on the Duke campus either hired male strippers or went to male strip clubs just that weekend alone, much less though out the entire year. I find it so fascinating that when we talk about female strippers or prostitutes we talk about how “society” failed women yet when we talk about male strippers or prostitutes, at best we simply view it as either a CHOISE they freely made, or at worse, comments such as “You know them horny men, always thinking when the stupid stick!”. I personally do not feel society failed Mangum. I think Mangum failed Mangum when she started using drugs (unless it was found she was forced or tricked in to getting hooked on them). Its seems to me when a man goes even once to a strip club, or views a single issue of playboy he is not only view as a pervert who “view all women as sexually objects instead of a real person” and because he is “a typically man” by extension all men are perverts. But when women who, on a regular bases (like the a woman that works in my office, her and her gf go once a week) to male strip clubs or hire “buy” a male stripper to do whatever they pay him to do, they are viewed as “independent, liberated suffocated women exploring their independence and the sexuality”? Should we not be concerned about society failing everyone that is a stripper, or prostitutes (male or female) or is that only women that are that important? And when women buy a playgirl or go to a strip club are they not viewing men as sex objects instead of real person?

Sep 3, 2008 - 1:20 pm 42. Danny:

Sex work is not something any woman wants to do.
I would not be so quick to say that. Yes a lot of people in sex work were forced into it but I wouldn’t be so quick to say that none of them chose it.

These boys bought a mentally ill bargain basement stripper and not the $2000 per night call girl.
Her mental illness has been brought up several times but I wonder if those guy knew she was mentally ill.

Their lives will go on with these lessons learned.
Lesson: Even after a guy has his life damaged by a false accusation the lying woman is still the victim somehow.

That is a good point Michael B. When someone talks about women who ogle men its silencing but when someone talks about men who ogle women its calling them on their male privilege…funny that.

Sep 16, 2008 - 1:32 pm 43. smoochie:

Crystal Mangum should spend the rest of her worthless life in prison. Why does America support and enable false accusers? You’d think that the bad rap she’s brought down on prosecutors in this country would be enough to motive them to hold her fully acountable for her lies.

Sep 25, 2008 - 10:49 am

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