Pajamas Media

109 Comments

1. Adam:

There is an exodus because the election ended last November, and they’re just going back home.

May 1, 2009 - 9:11 am 2. Richard:

On the other hand some folks might want to leave a state that has a horrible unemployment rate. This is probably much more likely otherwise the whole north eas and the whole west coast would be unpopulated areas of the country. Yet they are and remain the most populated areas of the country. People tend to relocate for jobs. When I left Texas (a low tax state ) for Minnesota(a high tax state) it had everything to do with the employment picture. You offer no proof of your hypothesis other than your bias against taxes.
Clearly your hypothesis would indicate much more migration than is reality. Yet if you look at the Southern states that have seen the greatest number of folks moving in you will see it has much more of a correlation to their jobs outlook versus taxes. Otherwise Texas and Mississippi both are states with strong anti-tax policies yet hardly anyone moves to Mississippi but Texas has grown considerably due to its record of job creation.
Opinions are nice but they are only that until you get facts.

May 1, 2009 - 9:22 am 3. DavidN:

What Richard leaves out of his point is that, at least here in California, a state government that extracts high taxes from its citizens of course believes that it can also extract lots of money from another piggy bank: businesses. We had a famous incident here just after Schwarzenegger got elected. Arnold’s a true RINO, except that he’s only intermittently in favor of tax increases. In his first months in office, one of California’s more famous businesses, one that epitomizes our state and its culture, announced it was moving to Oregon. I forget its name. It made granola and organic juice, that sort of thing. When they announced they were leaving, and Arnold asked why so that he could convince them to stay, they said–brace yourself–that the state’s business climate was too hostile to entrepreneurship. Mind you, this place was run by granola-eating hippies, the guys who go to the office wearing jeans and ponytails, the sort who conclude their emails with the salutation “Peace”. The sort of guys who believe in paying higher taxes for the betterment of man and the advancement of society. Anyway, Arnold said he would do for them what he could, but the State legislature, run by that other party, said that of course they needed more tax revenue, because some of their programs were underfunded. Now the organic juice and granola guys are in rural Oregon, making their stuff and sending their tax dollars to Eugene, or Springfield, or wherever Oregon’s capitol is.

One trick no politician has managed yet, but trust me they’re going to try, soon: raising taxes on people who’ve left your state. Eventually, you’re going to be living in some tax haven, and you’re going to get a bill in the mail. “Hello, if you’d stayed in California you’d owe the state $18,202. With the passage of our new law, you *still* owe us the money, even though you don’t live in the state any more. Please use the enclosed envelope to send your payment.” That’ll be fun, won’t it?

May 1, 2009 - 10:27 am 4. Ms. Attitude:

To make a country poor: raise taxes and lose integrity. – Bob McEwen, former member of the United States House of Representatives from southern Ohio ’s Sixth District.

The people of Ohio voted for “change” and thats all they have now!

May 1, 2009 - 10:36 am 5. Vaughn:

Hello Texas, just as soon as this house sells!!!!!!!

May 1, 2009 - 11:20 am 6. Richard:

DavidN I did not forget the business tax. I just pointed out that the obvious. Most people are not business owners and a lot of people are not even homeowners. So taxes are not their number one concern. A lot of people live in high tax areas because of quality of life and employment is one of the main components to that as well as living in a nice community.

The thing is if you starve the government of taxes you end up with some pretty lousy places to live. If you overtax you end up with a pretty bad place to live. Need to inject some reality into the discussion.

Recently I heard some anti-tax rhetoric suggesting the way to fix Minnesota economy was to lower business tax. The person stated that by lowering taxes the business owner would take the savings and expand their business by investing in new equipment or hiring more. Great lower taxes, the magic bullet for business how can it fail ? Well how about a refresher from econ 101. Supply and demand. The problem is that they forgot the most basic principle of capitalism. Why would a business owner expand or hire more if the demand for the product or service is not increasing. Lowering taxes on a business that is operating at a loss does not help because they pay taxes on their profits. So as far as taxes on income if you make $0 or loss one million the tax is the same. See in this scenario what is the incentive to expand the business? It’s about supply and demand. The point to all of this is tax breaks are not a silver bullet they can help in a down economy if targeted correctly. Personally my guess is that targeting them toward the middle class earners vs the business community would be more beneficial to the business community as well as the middle class earners. Kind of like what our president is advocating

May 1, 2009 - 11:32 am 7. Richard:

BTW DavidN why did this organic company not move to a low tax state? Why not move somewhere with cheaper labor. Oregon while not as low as California is still ranks considerably higher than say Missisipi. My guess is taxes were not the only factor in the decision. Just a guess

May 1, 2009 - 11:46 am 8. PAR:

What I was paying in State income taxes in Wisconsin, now covers my house payment in Florida and I get to keep the change. Love that sunshine!

May 1, 2009 - 12:11 pm 9. Former Buckeye:

I was raised in Cincinnati and my wife was raised in Youngstown. We lived for a few years, in the 80’s, in California. We have lived in Texas for over a 10 years. It has been sad to see what has happened to Ohio since we left in the 80’s. We still have family there and to compare it to Texas is interesting; there’s some growth and modernization, but nothing like you see in Texas. I would never consider returning to Ohio – we’d have to pay tens of thousands in additional taxes, hope that the house holds value (as opposed to slowly appreciating as in Texas), endure a less encouraging, lower or no growth business climate and endure the cold wet winters. Likewise we have been offered jobs in California, but why agree to huge additional taxes, more expensive less convenient housing and worse traffic? As a family it’s tough to beat Texas; sure if you are single or not working in a high paid job or not interested in buying a house the differences between California, Ohio and Texas may not be as significant, but for raising a family and keeping the benefits of your hard work, “God bless Texas.”

May 1, 2009 - 12:20 pm 10. Richard:

While not state income tax Texas ranks 15th highest in property taxes.
Mississipi is 47 th

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/PropertyTaxesWhereDoesYourStateRank.aspx

Why is no one addressing the fact that there states with MUCH lower taxes yet they are not growing significantly? Incidently states with good gov’t infrastructure either have significant growth or already have a very high population density. Tom Blaur’s article suggest we should be seeing huge growth in Alabama, Mississipi, S.Carolina etc… yet the states that see growth or large populations are states with good employment prospects. BTW I liked Texas for all the “big city” aspects yet my property taxes were much higher there than Minnesota

May 1, 2009 - 12:39 pm 11. Texas7:

Please don’t listen to anyone praising Texas and their warm weather, low cost of living and low taxes. It’s not that awesome. Nothing to see here, please stay in your own states. Thank you.

May 1, 2009 - 12:44 pm 12. George in SA:

The high property tax rate in Texas turned out to have saved them from the hyperbolic home price increases of other states. You don’t have to pay income tax, but if you want to live in a mansion, you’ll pay for it in taxes. It’s not a bad tax approach. The milder winter and robust economy are just nice side benefits.

May 1, 2009 - 1:13 pm 13. Mark in Texas:

I would like to amplify on what Texas7 wrote. While I like it here, I am sure that you wouldn’t. We have hurricanes, tornadoes, fire ants, hot muggy summers as well as snow and ice storms in the winter. The grass and bushes are filled with blood sucking and venomous insects. Already more people have died from the the Mexican Swine Flu Pandemic in Texas than in the entire rest of the United States. Furthermore, outside of Austin we tend to be tacky, unsophisticated bourgeois people without a proper appreciation of irony or hipster sophistication. Almost all of my neighbors go to church at least once a week. Many of them own guns and some of them carry those guns around with them.

May 1, 2009 - 1:19 pm 14. Richard:

Mark in Texas/ George in SA. Just keep everyone away from the Barbecue because if anyone taste that its going to be a tidal wave of carpet baggers. Boy I miss the food.

May 1, 2009 - 1:33 pm 15. Jack Olson:

Richard argues that Ohio has been losing population not because of its high taxes but high unemployment and it is true that Ohio’s unemployment rate of 6.9% is higher than that of, say, Texas’s 5.3%. One can well understand why California is losing population with its unemployment rate of 8%.

Yet, New York has an unemployment rate of only 5.9%, not much more than Texas. (Bureau of Labor Statistics). Then why would New York’s population grow only 0.1% from 2006-2007 while Texas’s population grew by 2.1%? Why such a difference in population growth without a commensurate difference in unemployment, if employment drives population gain or loss?

May 1, 2009 - 1:57 pm 16. Mark in Texas:

Jack Olson — Yet, New York has an unemployment rate of only 5.9%, not much more than Texas. (Bureau of Labor Statistics). Then why would New York’s population grow only 0.1% from 2006-2007 while Texas’s population grew by 2.1%?

I spent a few unhappy years in New York back when Mario Cuomo was Governor so perhaps I can answer that question.

New York has been so screwed up for so long that anybody who lives there understands that you have to leave the state to get a job. The only reason that people stay in New York is because they either have a government job or because they are collecting benefits from the government.

May 1, 2009 - 2:44 pm 17. E:

Columbus is the only major city in the state not hung up almost entirely on union based jobs. City is trying very hard to keep tech sector jobs robust and foster new startups and entice businesses that are recession proof.

May 1, 2009 - 2:48 pm 18. Whitehall:

Mark Twain on Texas:

“Where else can one see so far and see so little?”

Yet it does have its charms compared to urban Ohio.

As to California, the business climate, taxation, and nanny-state intrutions are getting worst, not better. As a Californian, I’m not moving – I’m staying and fighting!

May 1, 2009 - 2:58 pm 19. Richard:

Thanks Jack I like numbers. Again based on what Mark in Texas, Texas7 and my personal experience Texas is a nice place to live and raise a family. Cost of living is cheaper and weather is pretty nice. NY is expensive and crowded. So as I stated before other factors weigh in. While I can probably earn a larger paycheck in the Northeast cost of living will probably surpass that larger paycheck. Given the amount of new construction in Texas vs New York it keeps the real estate market from over inflating. Sorry but NY is too crowded therefore way more expensive to build. This is true to a certain extent for surrounding states such as NJ, Pennsylvania etc…

Again even with the negatives I cite about the NY they seem to do okay keeping their population.

BTW I double checked your numbers using the Bureau of Labor Statistic
http://www.bls.gov/web/laumstrk.htm

Ohio Unemployment rate is %9.7 ranking 40th
Texas is %6.7 ranking 15th
New York is %7.8 ranking 24th

I think that some may argue that the statistics would lend support to my belief that employment is a major factor on whether folks tend to relocate when jobs go away. I think state governments understand this and that’s why they work so hard to attract and keep business in their states. Even these high states will often raise taxes on their residents while showering businesess with tax breaks

May 1, 2009 - 3:04 pm 20. ic:

Where can they go?

They leave not because of high taxes but high unemployment.
Mmm, I wonder what happened to those businesses who provided employment. Mayhaps they fled or closed down because of the high taxes?
Ohio can always raise their taxes, expand the govt., and employ more paper pushers.

May 1, 2009 - 3:06 pm 21. The Wizard:

Ohio is getting what it voted for….change – translation? Higher taxes, government take over of corporations, jobs, banks. God love ‘em, they helped put the Empty Suit Racist idiot in office, now they get what they wanted.

God help us all.

May 1, 2009 - 3:22 pm 22. Richard:

ic Ohio was a manufacturing state. Ohio has lost a huge number of manufacturing jobs not to other states but other countries. That is not due to taxes but free trade agreements that made it very cost effective to ship all these jobs overseas. Even states with extremely cheap labor (ex North Carolina, W. Virginia etc… )and low taxes have seen these manufacturing and textile jobs moved to China. Your argument’s logical conclusion would be that we become more like China….. No thanks I don’t want to live in a third world nation

May 1, 2009 - 3:24 pm 23. Roderick Reilly:

Tom Blumer, I attended middle and high school back in the 60’s, although I prefer to refer to it as the Pleistocene. Anyway I marveled back then at how many major cities Ohio had.

How much of what has ravaged Ohio is the fault of ordinary Ohioans, though? I mean look, some assclown named Jerry Springer was once mayor of Cincinnati, and a ventriloquist dummy from the Vegan star system was the mayor of Cleveland, and now that little spawn of Howdie-Doodie represents Cleveland in Congress. How much sympathy should one feel for people who keep voting for Kucinich? I don’t get that, because Cleveland, I would think, is as middle-American as anyplace gets. Do they drink straight out of the Cuyahoga or something? And why wasn’t Drew Carey infected?

May 1, 2009 - 3:35 pm 24. Richard:

Thanks guys for the interesting conversation. Seems like a lot of folks hate paying taxes (so do I) and have been using taxes to justify a lot of positions and arguments. I was really just trying to point out that argument is too simplistic. The Wizard just went on a rant about taxes, the government and Obama… Yet Ohio has been having economic problems since before 2004 wayyyyy before Obama and the Dems majority. That’s why so many Republicans have been booted by the voters. So sorry Wizard, the facts are the facts and your rant is not helping your side. That’s why I include links in my posts so you don’t have to believe me you can go look it up yourselves.

May 1, 2009 - 3:44 pm 25. Chris:

Jack Olson:

Richard argues that Ohio has been losing population not because of its high taxes but high unemployment and it is true that Ohio’s unemployment rate of 6.9% is higher than that of, say, Texas’s 5.3%. One can well understand why California is losing population with its unemployment rate of 8%.

Don’t know about the others, but CA’s rate is 11.2% and headed (much) higher, unfortunately. Businesses are fleeing or not hiring. It’s not just the income tax, which is sky-high (nearly 10%), but sales tax here is also nearly 10%. Throw property tax, vehicle fees and a host of others into the mix and, well, you get an economic calamity.

Things have gotten so bad that the state instituted a tax on your tax this year to “close” the budget gap. That’s right. They’re taxing you on the taxes you owe. What could possibly go wrong?

May 1, 2009 - 3:54 pm 26. Chris:

oops.

May 1, 2009 - 3:57 pm 27. lee:

If the government lowered taxes, businesses can try things to increase demand. Lowering the prices on their products. The cost of high taxes ultimately come out of the cosumer’s pocket.

Most Asian immigrants tend flock to Califorina due to their prestigious universities (the UC system) and a sizeable Asian community where English is almost a second language. They’re not likely to settle in some white bread town Idaho to chase low taxes. However, they’ll often take measures to offset the high taxation in CA. Namely, setting a business operation in China (where the cost of business is apparently lower), hiring Mexicans at minimum wage through the labor market, or even paying them in cash to cheat on taxes.

People aren’t happy with the increased taxes in CA, where the car tax has just recently doubled. A New tax hike proposition is just around the corner. I love California, but I do so enduring some crappy things we have to deal with here.

May 1, 2009 - 4:21 pm 28. Bilgeman:

Not too long ago, I gave some serious consideration to moving to Ohio, the suburban Akron/ Canton Portage Lakes region.

In my gig, I meet people from all over, and every Ohioan I ever met always said the exact same thing about Ohio:

“It’s a great place to raise a family”.

I heard this exact same phrasing from Ohioans on Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico to the North Atlantic…kinda creepy really, almost a “The Manchurian Candidate”-vibe.

I’d observe though, that the author of this piece seems very focused on the urban cities, which, let’s face it, are largely chit-holes EVERYWHERE.

I imagine that there’s ‘burbs, smaller cities and rural areas that are jim-dandy, and would be even better if they weren’t being forced to subsidize anachronistic wanna-be megalopolises.

Ask an upstate New Yorker about THAT kettel of fish…

May 1, 2009 - 4:55 pm 29. glenn:

Fact is California has a structural deficit that increasing taxes can’t close. There are too many takers and not enough makers. From my lofty position as a rich retiree (not) it’s going to be fun to watch. My son (who is a maker) left some years ago.

May 1, 2009 - 5:10 pm 30. Richard:

Interesting all you guys keep talking about taxes, deficits and a variety of anecdotes. Yet none including the author cite facts or references. The reason I noticed this is because the only poster that did link to third party data was me. In fact a lot of you cite the fact that you lived in Texas, California, Ohio etc… Well I have lived in all the states mentioned except for Ohio they all have pluses and minuses but I get the impression that the only acceptable solution is to reduce taxes. Yet taxes are at a historical low and yet we are in one of the worst economic downturns in American history. Guess that don’t matter

May 1, 2009 - 6:23 pm 31. Evil Pundit:

#13 — Texas sounds a lot like Australia. You don’t want to live here either.

May 1, 2009 - 6:49 pm 32. HatlessHessian:

Our family came from the Youngstown and Cleveland area. My folks moved in the 80s since they couldn’t afford to live in Ohio on two teachers salaries, when all of the union employees at the automotive and steel plants were driving up the cost of living. Worse yet, for two teachers who were non-union and Republican, they were constantly assaulted by other teachers. I’ll never belong nor respect a union from my personal memories of profanity, assault on our car and threats of death when I was a young kid riding with my dad so we could get through a picket line because the kids had to start their fall camp that my dad taught in preparation for fall school. Any thing that terrorizes little children when their dad’s just trying to go teach kids during the scheduled week of camp (which he wasn’t even being paid for since the contract year didn’t include camp) just for the kids is something that is poisoned and long past any worth.

Most of my uncles, aunts and cousins have since fled Ohio too. The death of business is a big part, but the excessive cost of a lousy government is also a major part. We had a reunion this last summer where we all talked about how we missed Ohio but realized after leaving that it just wasn’t worth all the pain. Memories of the worlds worst DMVs and a bureaucracy from hell were common.

I’m afraid we need to have some dead states to show others that socialism doesn’t work. This is one of the reason Federalism is so critically important. As a nation that respects the states rights, we can afford to let Michigan, Ohio, California and New York stagnate and rot. From the ashes, a fresh, responsible and minimal state will rise. To the other states, they’ll serve as a reminder to an otherwise unaccountable bureaucracy that there is a fate for their irresponsibility.

May 1, 2009 - 6:54 pm 33. Scott M:

Yes, Ohioans and Michiganders are moving, usually due South. Once they arrive in their new hometowns they settle in and begin advocating the same bad ideas that ruined their previous state.

Conservatism and liberalism are incompatible ideas and we need to move apart and stop spreading liberalism to every corner of the country. Force the people electing liberal politicians to stay in place and live in the bed they made. Only when they are forced to live under the bad ideas their politicians bring them will they be forced to confront their ways.

As it is they blame their original state’s bad economy on external forces and bad deals of others. They move South just for the money and nice weather and bring the same poison to their new location. We don’t care how you did it up north and if we wanted light rail and unions we would have moved into your state.

May 1, 2009 - 6:58 pm 34. RealToast:

A couple years ago, the CA legislature came up with a “surcharge” of 1% for Californians making over $1-mil. Since there were only 24,000 of them at the time (down from a high of 34,000 in the dotcom heyday), there was certainly not enough of them to put up fight.

Even as unemployment soars, and employers fold, the Union-soaked-and-stinking CA legislature continues to gerrymander itself into the abyss. My neighbor, with impeccable timing, sold his home in 2006 and moved to the Houston ‘burbs. When I visited him later that year, he explained that the amount he was no longer paying in CA state tax easily paid for his entire new mortgage in TX (that his new house was obviously 50% bigger on a lot 3x the size, in a fancy golf community, was not mentioned; decorum, you know).

If we must run California on the very backs of business and the rich, would it not behoove us to seek/create more of both? Instead, we punish them with our contempt, even as we fleece them.

May 1, 2009 - 6:58 pm 35. Paul:

Massachusetts is losing population and its even worse. The population is aging, as young productive workers flee. Further the young that stay are often illegal tax consuming, poorly educated. So, the numbers are even worse. Basically the state is going to have an highly educated elite, and a super underclass a la third world.

About manufacturing. Anybody any where can order the same world class machine tools and assembly lines. You can put up a factory in China in a month. In the US? Two three years.
Further you don’t have Sarbanes Oxley, lawyers, legions of back office expense. In short, it is not so much the workers, as the government required support staff and our local, state and federal government having no idea of the time value of money. After all, their pay comes in no matter what, and then their first retirement.

Anyways, from Newark up I-95 to Portland, Maine, west across to Chicago are a hundred dead and dying cities. Soon states like Michigan, Ohio, New York….

Maybe everybody can be retrained as phlebotomists.

May 1, 2009 - 7:02 pm 36. crabpott:

I live on an island in the Puget Sound. To my back is the Pacific Ocean. Sort of like sitting in a corner booth watching the door.
Rains a lot. Cold a lot. But I can see ‘em coming. Grab the bug out bag and head for Alaska. Ya, it’s cold alot but I might get to feel like an American for a little while longer.

May 1, 2009 - 7:07 pm 37. JorgXMcKie:

Richard, the real reason manufacturing jobs leave the US is that only unskilled labor is really fungible. Any low- or unskilled labor job will inevitably be replaced either by a machine or by lower cost low-unskilled labor in another country once shipping cost allow.

You might notice the the percentage of the world total manufacturing that occurs in the US is relatively unchanged since 1960 (26-28%) while the amount of manufacturing has increased many-fold. US manufacturing labor has meanwhile decreased by a lot (40%? more?). Why? Automation.

Anyway, that means states with a heavy manufacturing base (especially those with high unionization) are going to lose jobs as it becomes more and more price competitive to replace workers with machines or to move the low- and unskilled jobs overseas. Duh.

Meanwhile, if people move for multiple reasons, but especially jobs, and more and more jobs are high-skill, mobile jobs, where do you expect them to go? To relatively high cost (tax) states or to relatively low cost states?

Meanwhile, New York, some, and California, some, have a large base of resources that have attracted population base in the past, but you could say the same for Michigan about 30 years ago. And Detroit. Now what?

Are you willing to be CA and NY will be better off in 30 years than Detroit and MI are now?

May 1, 2009 - 7:18 pm 38. BPT (Australia):

I’m happy in Australia, but if I had to move, I’d move to Alaska. Low taxes and that nice-looking Governor Palin, with the big heart.

May 1, 2009 - 7:21 pm 39. Employed:

Richard, Google has assembled historical unmployment information in graphical display here: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&idim=state:ST360000&q=new+york+state+unemployment+rate#met=unemployment_rate&idim=state:ST360000:ST480000:ST060000:ST390000

You’re stretching it when you claim that there’s no discernible difference between NY and TX unemployment rate. That’s more than a full percentage point of difference. I’m sure the Left will claim “Obama Miracle recovery!” if the US unemployment rate drops by more than a percentage point. And if it drops to TX unemployment rate amidst a recession, it’d be heralded as a stunning success. But it’s not. It

May 1, 2009 - 7:30 pm 40. Ted Joy:

Tom leaves out two other important factors.

One is the labor union problem. Ohio over the years has been under the thumb of such big unions as the Auto Workers, the Steel Workers, the Rubber Workers and — most importantly — the Teamsters. All of these unions had close ties to organized crime and that added another dimension to the ordinary problems of union corruption and militancy. Matter of fact, the Teamsters — operating out of Cleveland — controlled the national Teamster organization and pretty much served as the bankers for OC nation-wide.

The other problem is the virulence of black-white politics in the big and middle-sized cities. Though African-Americans came to power relatively early in national terms in Cleveland, there has never been the relatively normal give-and-take of political relations between the races here.

May 1, 2009 - 7:34 pm 41. Truth Fairy:

Y’all stay away from South Carolina too, y’hear? Weeze jes hicks in the sticks with hardly nothin’ but Republicans runnin’ things and it’s jes HAIL here’bouts.

May 1, 2009 - 7:36 pm 42. CHRISN:

I was born and raised in Oakland, California, and have steadily watched this city, and the state decline over the years. Now I have a newborn son, and have to weigh in the following:
1) lack of employment (what with all the ex-engineers in the silicon valley looking for work)
2) large increase in crime due to disinterested, or non-existent parenting
3) ridiculous property taxes and sales tax increases.

California pols like to take the folks for granted, as they figure we’ll stay because of the weather.

I just got back from a trip to Indiana. There you could buy two apartment BUILDINGS for what you can get for a 3 bedroom house in Oakland.

I’d hate to move, but who wants to be the last one holding the bag, if we aren’t already…

May 1, 2009 - 7:44 pm 43. comatus:

“(T)he natural human desire for open space…” is what keeps Ohioans there. Ohio is, even today, principally rural–you could spend a short miserable lifetime in Parma and not know that. People who live in its countryside are used to having access to it, too, unlike Texas or California, where you’re allowed to look as you drive by, but not hike or hunt. It’s cold in the winter, hot in the summer, wet in the spring. We have some beautiful weather in between tornadoes.

Yes, its government is utterly ridiculous–just like the rest of the country. Every time an outsider comes in, it’s on a hundred-year tax rebate to plow under a perfectly good field and stick up a ChinKaWidget plant that lasts three to five. The big cities are a gaping maw; show me one that isn’t, anywhere. The good old businesses have been run out. Whose haven’t? And sure, the capital sucked revenue out of the rest of the state to make itself an administration center that resembles cancer from the air. Sound familiar?

After you’ve farmed Ohio’s soil, you lose interest in the other 49 paradises. Tell you what: you PoliSci geniuses overthrow the foreign invaders who appear to make up 52% of the voting public, send us a telegram, and we’ll be right there to back you up. What’s the goddamn Wonder State we’re supposed to emulate? Ohio suddenly got stuck with a lot of poor people, and no way to put them to work. If smart places like FL, NY, CA, IL and PA can’t figure that out, don’t look to us for the nation’s salvation.

May 1, 2009 - 8:01 pm 44. George:

I live in the suburbs of Dallas, Texas and visited Columbus, Ohio on vacation last summer. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. The suburbs of Dallas have average priced housing and no income tax, but Dallas has all the scenic beauty of Wichita. Sprawl only improves the look of the land. On the other hand, winter weather comes only a few days at a time with only enough snow to photograph in the morning. What the Dallas suburbs have are jobs that pay multiples of the average wages and an average cost of living. Rural Texas is much less expensive, but it’s hard to earn lots of money out in the country.

Columbus, Ohio appears to be a relatively nice city that absorbed most of its suburbs. Has enough water to support big trees, green vegetation, and a nice river downtown. I didn’t observe construction cranes and other signs of big new construction projects, but I did see some commercial real estate construction which is more than I can say for Michigan. Columbus appears to be an ok place to live, but I doubt that its economy is generating lots of new jobs.

May 1, 2009 - 8:04 pm 45. Paul of Alexandria:

Richard (6):

Supply and demand. The problem is that they forgot the most basic principle of capitalism. Why would a business owner expand or hire more if the demand for the product or service is not increasing. Lowering taxes on a business that is operating at a loss does not help because they pay taxes on their profits.

What you forget, Richard, is that these same rules apply to new businesses. Entrepeneurs won’t start a new business in a state that isn’t hospitable, nor will existing businesses expand.

May 1, 2009 - 8:21 pm 46. Tom Blumer:

#40 Ted Joy,

Yes, I did leave out those two factors.

The union problem I overlooked because it’s nowhere near the issue in Cincy as it has been in the rest of the state, especially NE Ohio and Toledo which have been choked by decades of union greed and thuggishness. It’s not a coincidence that Cincy’s economy is weathering the recession better than NEO, which is just getting hammered (though Cincy is catching up).

Cincy is late to racial politics problems that are clear in other cities (Cleveland and Dayton for sure). But they are starting to get worse.

Both of those issues represent ugly icing on an really bad cake.

#30 Richard, taxes are NOT at a historical low, especially state and local taxes, which are more germane to this post. In Ohio, the big cities have gotten as high as they can with their earnings taxes, and the ‘burbs are ratcheting up their own non-reciprocal earnings taxes.

If you live somewhere and work somewhere else, and you pay an income tax where you work, isn’t that taxation without representation? Didn’t someone fight a war over that?

May 1, 2009 - 8:23 pm 47. KathyP:

When I left New York State for Ohio many years ago, my state income taxes, property taxes and auto insurance were cut in half. Things have gone up since then, but my contacts back home still pay almost twice of what I pay for those same taxes. You couln’t get me to move back to NYS if I won the Powerball. Ohio’s burbs, like Warren and Butler counties, do a hell of a job with their resources. Parental involvement has a lot to do with the quality of education these schools provide.

May 1, 2009 - 8:25 pm 48. Don:

So, many disgruntled folks, certainly no one reporting an unpopulated paradise.

The thrust of all this seems to be that:
1) taxes are too high
2) business environment is poor

When your back is against the wall and there’s no place to flee … the only thing left to do is FIGHT!

Fight America.
fight:
corruption,hypocrisy,injustice,stupidity,politicians

FIGHT … cause there’s no other alternative except rolling over and giving up.

Fight to make the world a better place.

May 1, 2009 - 8:44 pm 49. unseen:

high taxes equal less jobs which also makes people move. NC use to be a low tax state but the dems messed that up too. i moved from PA to NC because of taxes, jobs, now it appears i will be moving again….screw the dems

May 1, 2009 - 8:54 pm 50. DADvocate:

I live 60 miles outside of Cincinnati but work across the street from Cincinnati city hall. In the last two months, at least two people have been murdered during business hours less than two blocks from city hall.

Until recently when my company bought its own building and parking lot, we often felt threatened due to hostile comments from some of the residents of our neighboring subsidized house just walking to our cars after work. The police and city try to argue that, statistically, the city is safe. But, given our experiences, it sure doesn’t feel that way. When it comes to personal safety, feelings trump statistics.

May 1, 2009 - 8:57 pm 51. Cubedweller:

I live in NJ, land of the Sopranos and similarly crooked government (both parties). The last 3 governors, aided by a Dem assembly/senate have been jacking up taxes on a regular basis. Businesses and people are fleeing south; I know so many people who have moved to Charlotte, NC that I refer to it as “New” New Jersey. When I moved to New Jersey in 1987, I thought it unfairly got a bad rap; it now deserves every bit of revilement/ridicule it gets. The cities are all slums; most cities in other states at least have a nice area and a sketchy area, but our cities have no such nice areas. Camden leads the nation in crime and is a black hole for state funds, with Newark and Atlantic City not being far behind. One would think Atlantic City would be a jewel, with all the gambling money, but it’s a huge slum except for the immediate casino area (which is tacky at best).

The sad thing is that the people who in the Northeast (and rust belt states) who vote for all this nonsense, then feel the need to move away for more affordable and safe living, vote for the same things in their new states which ruined their old ones. New Yorkers ruined New Jersey, or more accurately, put the last nails in its coffin. New Hampshire used to be a conservative oasis in New England, until the Massachusetts libs and Vermont hippies moved in and turned it blue. Now, it’s just a matter of time before it will be the same way.

May 1, 2009 - 8:58 pm 52. zanne:

I beg my daughter to leave California daily. She has a wondrful job but can’t keep ahead of the tax structure. One raise leads to another tax. Eventually she will leave and many others. She is a taxpayer not a “check getter”. You do the math.

May 1, 2009 - 9:04 pm 53. furious:

My wife and I left California four years ago to be a mile from the Sun in the DFW Metroplex. What I remember most about Cali (Bay Area) were the number of school districs in state receivership (Oakland, Richmond) and those closing/consolidating schools (San Francisco, Palo Alto).

Here in our mundane, sub-divisioned, yet growing exurban community, this year the ISD is enrolling more children in kindergarten alone than were enrolled in all K-12 five years ago. Excuse me, KINDERGARTEN ALONE and FIVE YEARS AGO. Our daugher’s soon-to-be elementary school still has that new car smell. And before the libtrolls go all ‘whitebread’ on me, the ESL program has to accommodate more than sixty different spoken-at-home languages.

Yes, property taxes are high. Alot of that has to do with the courts-mandated “Robin-Hood” public school financing scheme. But, hey, at least judging by the playgrounds and soccer fields, at least we have a future here.

May 1, 2009 - 9:06 pm 54. Bob:

Some folks in this thread simply look at the amount of taxes, as if they are a given.

The question no one’s asked is, how much government do we really need? A lot of government just keeps metastasizing, dreaming up new ways to spend money, as if they had a right to an ever-expanding pool of revenue. If government would just stick to the basics, and quit trying to be all things to all people, the need for revenue would go down to levels people are willing to tolerate.

Government is not the solution for everything. And it shouldn’t try to be. But that is the Democrats’ going-in position.

May 1, 2009 - 9:11 pm 55. Koblog:

Forget population mobility. To hard to monitor.

Consider the demands of the very liberal Film industry in California.

These liberals demand tax breaks or they will take their productions out of state or even out of the country. Canada or eastern Europe anyone?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3i89d7632ddc985bd12f3635e124e8f55f

California film production is down 56%.

“Most big-budget feature films are not shot locally, and even independent filmmakers are shooting fewer days in our area,” he said. “While we applaud Sacramento’s recently passed film incentive, which should help entice independent filmmakers, the $75 million production budget cap means the more expensive studio films will not qualify for the program, which should be expanded if California is to compete with incentive-rich states that have studio and talent infrastructures of their own.”

“Film incentive” and “incentive-rich” are code for “tax breaks.”

Funny how liberals love high taxes but understand that high taxes drive business out.

May 1, 2009 - 9:11 pm 56. dphorstick:

Wisconsin is pushing out jobs as fast as possible. The state wants to make a haven for illegals and single mothers with their illiterate broods. In twenty years the state will be running amok with illiterate unemployable adults and their crazy menopausal mothers. Wisconsin’s best export is its well educated children.

May 1, 2009 - 9:13 pm 57. Timmy:

To all the people leaving liberal hellholes, New York, California, Ohio, and especially Michigan, stay where you are. You people are like a virus that kills it’s host and moves on to another victim. The politicians you guys elected and the policies that were enacted have destroyed your respected states and now those same policies are being exported to other states, especially the South. PLEASE LEAVE US ALONE

May 1, 2009 - 9:19 pm 58. dave:

Richard, globalisation’s a factor (i.e., factories in China), but that was a challenge that needed to me met and adapted to. It wasn’t necessarily a death-blow. But if you’re moribund and rotten with bloated bureaucracies and entrenched unions, then you’re not in a good position to handle challenges and crises. Hence the Ohio mess.

Scott M @ 33:
“We don’t care how you did it up north and if we wanted light rail and unions we would have moved into your state.”

Priceless.

May 1, 2009 - 10:11 pm 59. Ring:

I’ve been in Cleveland for over 12 years, and have been trying to leave for the last 4. Home prices, while they rocketed for the rest of the country (under Bush) gained a modest one or two percent in Cleveland, but fell hard when the country did. We are now one of the ‘most affordable’ places to live. This place is a joke. The people running it are a joke (and under federal investigation), Jennifer Brunner and the board of elections provided cover for ACORN’s activities and voter fraud and is now running for Senate (I’m sure she’s got Obama’s support in return for her illegal antics for him). Kucinich keeps teasing the unions along despite never bringing any money or jobs in, there are empty businesses downtown all over, no projects get started till the brown envelope of cash is in the right hands. (Pittsburgh has 3 big construction projects run now, Cleveland has none). We had a tax increase recently for a medical mart which has yet to materialize, except the usual suspects are getting paid off for their ’services’.
It is all locally run by Democrats into the ground while they claim it is all Bush’s fault. This is despite other areas in the country having exceptional growth in the last 8 years under Bush. These morons keep voting in the same douchebags that keep them down.
Richard is partly right, it’s not taxes that drives us out. If they actually did something useful with it, I wouldn’t mind so much. The place is a mess, run into the ground and all they can think to do is raise taxes. As it is, we get taxed out the wazoo, and nothing but a crap , corrupt government in return.(regarding the corruption, Kucinich himself said there was corruption in Cleveland last year and yet has not been questioned by the FBI, nor has he gone to the FBI. Additionally, a number of county related folk are under investigation by the FBI).

May 1, 2009 - 10:38 pm 60. Keith:

Look, I REALLY enjoyed this article & all of the comments. Great discussion.

Me? I live in Eastern Europe but was born & raised in a small town in Central California that is now a bedroom community for the SF Bay Area. What kills me, is that when I’m back in CA, I can see how things have decayed. We have a constant influx of liberal Bay Area people who love liberals & vote for them. What I do NOT get, is why they all complain about high taxes, the anti-business atmosphere in CA, etc. but CONTINUE to vote liberal overwhelmingly. Me? I’ve fought for a long time to keep my home town conservative politically, but it is a lost battle. Old 3rd generations people from Tracy, like myself, are simply overwhelmed by the Bay Area people & it has made the town a MUCH worse place to live. So, now that our State is a national basketcase, & it is obvious that the State Senate & Assebly & our RINO gov. don’t have a clue, WHY do these people keep voting liberal?

Someone once said that stupidity is doing the same thing over & over again & expecting the same result. Ditto the CA liberal voters. What is the deal? What don’t they understand about liberalism now working? Sure beats me!

May 2, 2009 - 12:44 am 61. Dean Masters:

I’ve lived in Ohio all my life and have worked in the legislative process for many years. Ironically, it was not the high-living Democrats who ruined Ohio, it was the country club Republicans! Starting in 1994, when Speaker Jo Ann Davidson took over the Ohio House, annual budgets grew in double digits every single year as the R’s grew government. George Voinovich served two terms as governor during the 90’s and never met a tax he didn’t want to enact. AS usual, the average person didn’t know anything about what was happening in the state capitol, so budgets continued to grow. When the economy fell apart, so did the natural tax growth that was feeding the growing beast and guess what? The spending base couldn’t be cut – it would be too draconian and sever too many ‘essential state services’ to the public. Balderdash! Now the Dems have inherited the mess and have no idea how to make it better either!
A pox on both their houses.

May 2, 2009 - 3:10 am 62. weary wanderer:

As a recent retiree and life long Californian my wife and I after she retires in 2010 will be packing up and taking our considerable life accumulation with us.
We will with a broken heart be leaving the state that gave both us a superlative public education through professional school at virtually no cost to ourselves or our parents (student tuition including a charge for unlimited admssions to all campus events cost me from $38-$58 through grad school in 1966)
My son attended my alma mater grasduating in 2006 but his student fees (can’t call it tuition because our orwellian democrats insist that public colleges & universities have no tuition) were $1700 a quarter. Worse yet to get a BA in four years now means you have to attended all four quarters so what cost me a maximum of $116 a year in 1966 cost our son $6,800 a year. You say why four quaters a year. The answer is because the California colleges and universities have cut back on the ratio of class offerings to student enrollment forcing students to hang around for more terms to get their degrees.
The home that my parents owned for 35 years and on which in my last year in college (1966) they paid $380 a year in property taxes today is owned by a cousin’s son and now groans under a $5,000 tax bill that is well over $5,000 a year.
In 1961 when I was paying $38 a semester for for student fees the state sales tax was 3% and my average income parents and relatives did not even have to file a state income tax form. I myself did not feel the bite of state income taxes until the early 1970s though I earned a well above average salary and was single.
California’s tax insanity began in 1958 when the democrats took control of the state legislature, a control they have retained to the present day.
In the last 35 years I have witnessed California going from a high wage state to a third world low wage hellhole with a small high rolling elite, its infrastructure decay from the best in the nation to the worst west of the Mississippi River(relative to population), the state’s public schools tumble from the top in the nation to next to the bottom in terms of student achievement, and the extinction or exit of its Historic landmark business institutions (Unocal, Bank of America, Mc Donnell Douglas, Lockheed, & Crocker Bank to name a few).
When I travel to the liberals much damned low tax states such as Texas, Florida, Arizona, Utah, and Nevada I find them to have an infinitely superior infrastructure compared to California, superior public services, new public schools, and an absence of idiot nanny state regulations. When out odf state I realize how horribly conditions in California have degenerated since Governor Moonbeam and the small is beautiful hippy dippy sixties crowd seized the political system in 1974.
If the California coastal communities real estate market does not collapse as have those in inland areas of the state we will liquidate the property assets we have acquired by judicious living and thrift and head out for retirement in no state income Texas where our current $10,000 a year property tax bill will cover most of the mortgage on $250,000 house in that state’s winter warm southern Rio Grande Valley.
Opps I nearly forgot to mention the $6,000 a year we presently shovel out for state income taxes and the just raised vehicle license fees will pay for most of the mortgage on a 2,000 sq. ft. summer home in Utah’s high country so we will not suffer the discomfort of the liberal tax addicts much hated Texas summers. Believe me we have already checked the facts and know that our property taxes in Utah and Texas will be a fraction of what we now pay as a mortgage on a house we purchased 23 years as a buy up in California’s make it tough to build regulation regime set up by the democorrupt lib power mad bureauweenie control for your own good high cost housing market.
Our master’s degree 26 year old civil engineer
son and his soon to be wife, an electrical engineer are also planning a move to Texas to join up with his three third generation Califonia cousins already resident in the Lone Star State and thriving there.
Ohio, Massachusetts, and New York are in full decline but the impending economic disaster that is brewing in California will make the chronically misgoverned and economically long faltering Northeast look like a utopia as the present flight of the young, affluent, well-heeled retirees, and educated out of California turns into a flood.

May 2, 2009 - 3:40 am 63. MarkD:

DavidN, The Supreme Court struck down New York’s attempt to tax people who no longer reside in the state. Mario Cuomo tried to hit the pensions and IRAs of people who had left NY.

The attempt to establish a residency requirement for welfare recipients was likewise shot down.

So, when I retire or am laid off, it’s Texas for me. With respect to another comment above, there are still private sector jobs in NY, just not very many. I’ve encouraged my kids to leave. NY has a corrupt political system and unlike California, no initiative, referendum or recall powers.

There are a lot of fiscally conservative New Yorkers, but we’re outnumbered.

May 2, 2009 - 5:06 am 64. Oldguy:

#60,Keith-I dont know if you have ever read anything by Takuan Seiko, as he is from eastern Europe. He has an expression for people you describe(Pod-People). Much has been said about white flight but I think many people are trying to escape Liberals(Pod-People)and their politics.

May 2, 2009 - 7:04 am 65. Truth Fairy:

Thank you all for a wonderful discussion. A copy should be sent to every member of Congress.

May 2, 2009 - 7:04 am 66. Phil Byler:

I grew up in Ohio, but have lived and worked in New York for over 30 years now. While Republican politics in New York are a challenge, I like living on Long Island, and the practice of law in Manhattan has kept me busy. With family in Ohio, though, I have watched Ohio over the years.

High taxes and the loss of jobs are economically killing Ohio. When decades ago the Republicans domiinated in Ohio, the state did well. But in the last 30 years, Ohioans have elected an increasing number of Democrats who have brought the problems of East Coast liberalism to the state and thus have not governed well.

May 2, 2009 - 7:44 am 67. Hermy:

I wonder if we’re headed into a period where masses of people relocate to new areas based on their values, beliefs, taxes and regulations. A mass self-sorting, perhaps? If that is the case, then it seems that America is dividing, quite naturally, into two Americas — Old America to the north, and New America to the south and west (but not CA).

The first trick, for those of us who want New America to stay new, is to keep those with old American values OUT of our states before they ruin our relative paradises.

The second trick, though, may actually be easier, but more painful — we need to keep the federal government from forcing us to subsidize Old America’s problems. A hearty states-rights campaign may help, but won’t be enough. At some point we’re going to “close the borders” to newcomers from Old America, or at least check their voting statistics so see if they were the last of the sane Republican voters in their state.

May 2, 2009 - 7:55 am 68. BMoon:

Lots of good Republican areas have been ruined by mooching, govt.-teat-sucking, addled Dems moving south – away from the disasters they helped create. Stay home.

May 2, 2009 - 8:04 am 69. Joe Bison:

Liberals are interested in power not economic
prosperity. It is a victory for them when the
opposition emigrate. This leaves them with an
economically dependent [government employees,
welfare, ACORN etc] group to elect them.

When the polity becomes economically non
viable the next step is to push for
permanent subsidies from the federal
government. This greatly impresses their
supporters because they can really bring
home the bacon.

May 2, 2009 - 9:41 am 70. John B:

I’m a born and bred Texan, I was 13 years old before I learned; “Damnedyankee”, was two words, (My grandmother pronounced it that way).

All ya’ll Yankees, please stay up there in the north, we don’t need you here. Us Texas rednecks are perfectly happy the way we are. Now that Governor Rick Perry is finally openly talking about secession, I’m hoping you will all need a visa to come south soon.

Hurray for the independent Republic of Texas~!

May 2, 2009 - 10:00 am 71. Andrew:

Great discussion. As a lifelong (nearing 50 Y.O.) California resident just waiting to leave, I can remember our current Governor trying to convince Nissan not to relocate one of their So. Cali facilities to Tennessee.
Nissan advised that there was really nothing that could be done, and they left. Along with several hundred of their employees.
The demographic differences (Income and education) between the folks outmigrating and the folks inmigrating here in Cali should scare the heck out of anybody paying attenetion.
#67 HERMY…check out the book “The Big Sort”, by Bill Bishop…right on your first point.

May 2, 2009 - 10:18 am 72. ILikeIke:

Maybe they’re leaving because Ohio sucks?

May 2, 2009 - 11:29 am 73. Former Ohio Fella:

Ohio was a great place to grow up. I left Youngstown the year the mills closed down. I’ve met many former ohio fellas over the years who left to find work like I did. In my opinion, the things that set Ohio and the Midwest apart from other places are the values of the people who lived and worked and raised their kids there. Things are changing, those values are dying out. I used to be able to tell when people were from the Midwest by the their repectful nature but no more. That respect is what allowed them to be sold down the river. Most of the people I knew would never assume that anyone was out to do them harm. But harm has come in the form of a government that just takes their hard earned money and spends it whitout any respect for where it came from. This is also changing. Once the respect is gone something will take it’s place. Contemt comes to mind.

It saddens me that almost every debate I see ends up breaking down into political party bashing. The democrats ruined…, the republicans didn’t care…. What has happened is beyond the political parties in power. It is all about money. Enjoy all your money while you can because your kids are going to suffer.

Don’t tread on me.

May 2, 2009 - 11:29 am 74. Rob S:

I moved from Ohio with my family and my law degree to get way from the state where the entitlement mentality is now firmly in majority. I advise my fellow Ohioans to do the best thing for the state we love. Abandon it until it comes to its senses.

May 2, 2009 - 12:37 pm 75. Don:

Yeah, it’s great to have geographical safety valves providing for economic migrations to get rid of the misfits and the trouble makers, but, hey, that’s why Obama was elected, to equal out, err, spread the wealth. Pretty soon there won’t be any sane jurisdictions to flee to, and that’s when the fun begins.

May 2, 2009 - 1:08 pm 76. Chris:

Richard,
…but I get the impression that the only acceptable solution is to reduce taxes.

On the off chance that you’re not being deliberately obtuse and may check back, let me give you an answer. No, that is not the only solution, although it works when tried. Another solution (especially where CA is concerned) would be to do nothing (like raising already confiscatory taxes) to make a horrid situation completely untenable. But that won’t work for the psychotics ruining the state.

Take a look at this article from yesterday since you complain about no one linking anything to back up their assertions.

http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/107003/More-Cities-Seeing-at-Least-15-Percent-Unemployment

18 major metros in the US with unemployment of 15 % or higher. 12 of them in CA. The people running the place call it bad luck or blame Bush. Any thinking person looks at the numbers and sees the obvious. The state is run by idiots.

In a normal society the state workers view themselves as public servants. Not so here and it’s exactly 180 out. The private sector employees and business owners exist to fund CTA and SEIU and provide 90% pensions and full medical at 50-55 years of age.

But Richard, you keep believing that the problem is with those who advocate cutting taxes. Not that any cuts are taking place, mind you. In your view it sounds like merely advocating for tax rate reduction imperils prosperity, regardless of the fact that rates are actually going higher. We will be the first society to tax our way to prosperity. Yes we can!

May 2, 2009 - 1:39 pm 77. Rick554:

I was born and raised in a small town south of Cleveland. It used to be a farm town, now its urban sprawl. This is now my 3rd “recession” and frankly, I’ve had it. Taxes are through the roof, politicians are either wackos or crooks and employment has disappeared, AGAIN. Our Republicans are RINOs, (Voinovich) or commies (Brown). And the best thing that can be said for Dennis Kucinich is that he’s in DC where he can do no more harm. Good times in Ohio are ok and the bad times here really , really suck. The citys in Ohio are full of entitlement drones and the rest of Ohio has to pay for them. This state is toast. If it wasnt for my grandchildren, I’d be outta here in a Texas minute. For myself, I’d make my stand at the Oklahoma border, if they let me in!
BTW, this so-called Administration in Washington reminds me a lot of when Dennis Kucinich took over Cleveland. It took a generation to undo that clown’s screwups. Good luck America, youre gonna need it!!

May 2, 2009 - 1:58 pm 78. Scott M:

Reinvigorate the Free State Project. I nominate Texas as the target state. The idea is liberty loving Americans move to the target state. Early participants move to a particular location and “take over” the local government and pressure the state government to adopt the liberty-promoting ideas that made America great.

As the Free State succeeds other states adopt the same ideas and the country evolves toward liberty. Special attention is paid to implementing laws and regulations which prevent commie-libs from hijacking the process. Non of this “living Constitution” end-run.

May 2, 2009 - 5:08 pm 79. Dusty:

Native Texan here. Spent three very happy years (thanks to the USMC) in San Diego 1968-1970. CA really was golden then. Cut to 1988, hubby, 14-yo daughter & I move to Los Angeles because of my fond memories of California.

Hubby is engineer, the guy whose picture goes into the brochures given to prospective clients. But in CA we were such under-funded Okies (Tom & Dusty Joad, that was us) and were treated as such. We lived in what turned out to be a dangerous area because the housing prices were too high for us. Our next door neighbor was murdered, probably right outside. This was in the safe, “white bread” San Fernando Valley. The schools were/are abominable. Our daughter was AFRAID to go to the bathroom at school because “bad things happen there.” As soon as we could, we moved outside of LA county, and things were better there. But when daughter grew up and her first child went to school (we were again back in LA because that’s where the job was), we found that even the elementary schools were not safe and not useful. Daughter home schooled her kids till we could get back here to Texas, where the children are now in public school and doing well.

The big reason we left CA? The corruption and the utter craziness of the government/population was something that we could tell was never going to get any better. One of the first things I remember about CA is that they had an election TO FORCE INSURANCE COMPANIES TO LOWER THEIR PREMIUMS. Then they made it illegal for companies to stop doing business in CA. I’m amazed they haven’t voted to repeal gravity. The cultural and political mindset there is so other-worldly, so corrupt, so insane–who could possibly live there if they had a choice? There is no point in standing and making a fight, because the “voters” who want something for nothing so outnumber the voters who are willing to work and take care of themselves and their own families. The prevailing attitude toward the middle class is condescending, devaluing, snide–ugh. It’s a great place for drug dealers and Hollywood producers, some wacko lawyers. But it’s no place to bring up a family.

The coastal areas are heart-breakingly beautiful, and that’s what kept us there for years. We all still miss the beach and the mountains. Big Sur, oh, sigh. Rick Perry is not my cup of tea, but the governor is pretty much irrelevant. Texas is a good place, so far, to bring up a family and to take care of elders. However, as others have noted, we do have quite a problem with runaway Northerners coming down here and bringing their half-witted politics with them.

Texas should be more like Boston, he says.
Why don’t you go back to Boston, she asks.
No jobs, he says, and the cost of living is too high.

Yep.

Oh, and here we wait our turn in lines at the store and in traffic. We are not charmed by newcomers with boorish manners. That border fence? Don’t just assume that all of us Texans want that fence on the SOUTHERN border.

And the guy talking about the blood-sucking bugs in the grass? Not kidding.

Obama says he’s only going to overtax those making more than $250,000 per year. After the hyperinflation hits–caused by his crazy money throwing and money-printing–and bread is $30,000 a loaf, don’t you hope YOU make more than $250,000 per year?

May 2, 2009 - 5:15 pm 80. Neshobanakni:

Richard has mentioned Miss’ippi several times as a low tax state. It’s not. We have five percent income tax, seven percent sales tax with no grocery or other exceptions, and very high car taxes. So you Californians and North Easterners stay away. AND we all have guns … lot’s of ‘em.

May 2, 2009 - 5:25 pm 81. doppelganglander:

Preach it, brothers and sisters. I grew up in NJ and moved to Georgia 17 years ago. Despite about 40% of the population of my county being born outside Georgia,it is still dominated politically by natives. My house is about the same size as my brother’s home in NJ, but I paid about half what he did and my property taxes are about a quarter of his. The public schools are good here; my brother paid goodness knows how much in Catholic school tuition for his kids. The weather here is great, the streets are beautifully maintained (although there aren’t enough of them, especially trying to cross the metro area east and west), the people are nice, and until the recent spike in unemployment, jobs were plentiful. I think the only reason more people don’t come down here is the misconception that Georgia is full of ignorant hillbillies. (We keep most of them below the Gnat Line and up in the mountains.)

May 2, 2009 - 5:51 pm 82. Mark in Texas:

Folks should read the remarks of comatus at 43 or KathyP at 47. Ohio sounds like a wonderful place. If you must move away from where you live now, you should give it serious consideration.

Texas is the sort of place where we vote for people like George Bush, Tom Delay and Rick Perry. If it were not for the Supreme Court, sodomy would probably still be illegal here. Do you really think that you would be happy in such a place?

Another poster mentioned barbeque. In Texas that means beef. For those of you who believe that barbeque should be pork slathered with catchup and sugar, you should move to Georgia.

May 2, 2009 - 6:35 pm 83. MO:

#78 Scott M. Great Idea! But Obama & the Libs would probably quarantine TX & let nobody in & nobody out.

May 2, 2009 - 7:14 pm 84. steveg:

I have lived in every region of the country in the last 35 years, and have found Nashville, TN to be the most liveable town thusfar. I appraise high-valued homes for a living, and it would surprise you how much wealth is in this area. Williamson county, which is a metro Nashville county, is one of the top wealthiest counties in the country. Investment guru’s such as Dave Ramsey and Art Laffer have made Nashville their home because of the excellent business climate.

May 2, 2009 - 7:56 pm 85. myth buster:

Liberals haven’t won anything if they chase all the decent people out of the state. At the Federal level, the state loses its representatives in Congress. At the state level, they lose control of the state, and it devolves into anarchy. With no one to pay the bills, they end up turning on each other.

May 2, 2009 - 9:01 pm 86. Well Educated Cad:

Ah, Evil Pundit is back!
Tired of the trolls on Pundit Kitchen?

May 3, 2009 - 2:45 am 87. Right Brain:

I was born and raised in Ohio, along with my four siblings. Not one of us now lives in Ohio, first my parents moved and then one by one so did their children.

When I was young George Szell and the Cleveland symphony orchestra was the top ranked orchestra for 24 years in a row, internationally! Can anyone imagine that being true today?

Between the taxes and an odd lack of purpose I don’t even recognize the state where I spent my youth.

May 3, 2009 - 3:56 am 88. Bilgeman:

#82: Mark the Texican:
“Another poster mentioned barbeque. In Texas that means beef. For those of you who believe that barbeque should be pork slathered with catchup and sugar, you should move to Georgia.”

You poor, poor, man! If you think that barbecue is from Georgia, that tells the initiated that you have never been blessed with eating PROPER barbecue.

There are two kinds of barbecue…the more widely known is tomato-based red, which is best exemplified by the pit-smoked variety of Memphis, TN, an then there is vinegar-based white, which is from the Carolinas.

I’m sure Georgia has quite creditable facsimiles, but it ain’t the “real deal”.

What you call “barbecue” in Texas is no more than “grilling meat”.

May 3, 2009 - 5:56 am 89. Dusty:

Well, decent barbecue is something lacking in California. And it took us a while to get used to the insipid version of “Mexican” food served there. My Santa Monica born-and-bred boss, learning that I was from Texas, kindly offered to let me taste rye bread. Yep, she just naturally figured I’d had nothing but white bread my whole life. I put on my richest, deepest, fakest drawl and told her that, honestly, all we ever had was cornbread and once in a while, biscuits. Still miss the beach–and when the beach moves to Nevada, we might go back to the beach. You guys are fairly cool.

May 3, 2009 - 7:05 am 90. Paul:

Massachusetts here.

There is a lot of money in decline. I’m sure you all are aware of abandoned houses being stripped for copper pipe, wire, aluminum. For a while the house can even be used for squatting, drug dens and prostitution.

Well imagine entire cities. Lowell, Lawrence. The industries are welfare, social service, even police. These government, paid mercenaries of the Democrats. You have an vicious drift of taxing out the few earners, stripping their houses and business out from under them as they flee, bringing in a serf/slave army of welfare types that sell their votes, and a NCO corps of higher vote sellers in the police/firemen/EMT/’teacher’ aka babysitters and various other unions. Throw in judges, contractors, as the capo bosses and you can squeeze dry two-three hundred years of saved up, bust ass work capital for a few profitible decades.

What we have now in the north, is slow motion looting on various levels.

Study it, watch it, it’s coming to all of us on a national scale.

May 3, 2009 - 12:27 pm 91. eon:

Writing from overcast South Central Ohio, with just a few observations.

Absolutely, both major political parties are responsible for the slow-motion disaster movie that the Buckeye State has become. The Democrats talk about the “corruption” of the previous (Bob Taft)GOP governorship, but their answer (Ted Strickland) has been no better. Among his “brilliant” maneuvers;

1. Jennifer Brunner, his SecState who now wants to be senator, has in the past called for investigations of people for no better reason than the fact that they were registered to vote as something other than Democrats (she finds independents as “suspicious” as Republicans).

2. Richard Cordray, our new (Dem) Attorney General, is now tasked with investigating a multi-billion dollar “shortfall” in tax revenue that is apparently due to either incompetence, mismanagement, or simply flat-out lying to the Governor and public by the former State Treasurer last year. That ex-treasurer being… Richard Cordray. Not surprisingly, our (Democratic-run, GOP-hating) major newspapers, the Columbus Dispatch (aka the “Disgrace”) and Cincinnati Enquirer see no “conflict of interest” with a State AG being told to investigate himself. This, BTW, is after Strickland’s first AG, Marc Dann, had to resign over various improprieties, financial and sexual; the most bizarre twist was when a state court concluded that Dann was in fact guilty of misappropriation of campaign funds, which were still in his possession- and then levied a small fine and didn’t bother to ask him to return the funds.

3. Strickland himself is rapidly becoming the butt of jokes. A former “moderate-conservative” Congressman, he ran on fiscal responsibility and a side order of swearing to oppose anti-gun legislation, claiming he had always done so in the U.S. House. As it turns out, his method of “opposing” said measures was to simply make sure he was absent when they came up for a vote. He didn’t even have enough gumption to show up and vote “Present”,like The One. His economic policies are equally other-worldly. Recently he was on a radio show on Sunday morning (Townhall Ohio, WTVN 610 AM from Columbus), mainly devoted to farm issues. The host asked him the following question;

Q; Governor, you have stated that money from the Federal stimulus package will be used to increase funding for the Ohio Card program (OH’s version of “food stamps” for the poor). But when the stimulus money is gone, how will the state continue to fund the increases?

A;

(30 seconds of silence)

Followed by a confused “statement” that the present stimulus bill is only the “first installment” of what will be a yearly transfer of funds from the Federal government to the states, which will take care of future funding.

Which means either Strickland knows something the rest of us don’t, or he’s even more clueless than he appeared at the start. My money is on the latter.

And oh yes, we Buckeyes from outside of Cuyahoga Co. (Cleveland) know all about “Dennis the Menace” Kucinich, who we define as “The Attack Poodle of the Radical Left” in Congress, succeeding the last ankle-biter in that post, former Rep. David Bonior (D-MN), who was apparently too weird for even his own constituents to tolerate. At one time or another, Dennis has tried to impeach every Republican President since he was Boy Mayor of Cleveland, from Gerald Ford on up. And when he was Mayor, he “staffed” his administration with college-age types, many of whom had never held any job, let alone one in government, who were motivated primarily by a hatred of “The Man”, defined as “anyone less radical than Dennis the Menace”. (The parallels to the present crowd in the White House are almost too obvious.) Those of us outside of “the Mistake on the Lake” have long wished Dennis would fly to the Moon, and stay there. So don’t blame us for the idiot.

Speaking of idiots, Columbus’ Mayor, Michael Coleman, keeps pushing for a “light rail” system to run from Cleveland to Cincinnati via Columbus (apparently to squire big contributors to Reds and Browns games). He also wants a streetcar system to run through downtown Columbus, so he can ban automobiles to “fight Global Warming”. As if this isn’t enough, he claims that the streetcar system can serve as the “nucleus” of the “light rail” system. No, he isn’t an engineer (railroad or otherwise). And yes, he also thinks that Federal “stimulus” money will pay for building and operating his train sets. So far, Strickland hasn’t bothered to tell him “no”.

All I can say is, don’t blame me- I never voted for these twits. (And not living in Columbus- thank G-d- I can’t vote for or against Coleman, although “against” would be my policy if I was unfortunate enough to live there.) But I’m looking forward to 2010- when I can vote for whoever runs against Strickland, just on general principles.

clear ether

eon

May 3, 2009 - 3:37 pm 92. Debbie Downer:

I agree with Tom Blumer’s assertions, but let’s get some facts straight: you cannot compare the crime rates of a nation even during wartime with that of a city that is comprised mostly of welfare recipients. Cities, even nice liveable ones like San Francisco, always have higher per capita crime rates than an entire country. The murder rate for the US, for example, is 6.6 per 100,000 people. The murder rate for Cleveland is 20 per 100,000. However, if you are black, Columbus is more deadlier than Cleveland, according to a 2004 survery. Also, since there are 101 factors that go into anything, one of the reasons why Ohio is losing population (the only state to actually lose population along with Michigan, which I’m surprised Blumer did not mention) is because of the invention of a little appliance called the air conditioner. If you look at states like Texas and Florida, their populations did not begin to swell until after the air conditioner became widely used back in the 1950s. The air conditioner made living in the tropics palpable. Taxes, crime, poor schools are only part of the issue. If poor schools were the biggest issue, then no one would move to Florida, which has the worst public schools system in the country.

May 3, 2009 - 4:07 pm 93. Harry:

Care to hear from someone from the people’s republic of maryland?

Crime, outrageous taxes, corrpution, congestion–those are the reasons people flee to other states. In the case of maryland, most of us cross over to virginia or pennsylvania (I’ve been living in pennsylvania for 15 years and can’t imagine living returning to maryland). There are entire suburban-like towns that have sprung up across the border in pennsylvania due to the influx of maryland refugee. Nearly 400,000 people living in northern virginia (that’s outside DC) are originally from maryland. That’s a lot of lost tax revenue from a state whose sole purpose is do nothing but tax. But why does maryland keep growing in population with nearly 6 million strong today? Thank the federal government. Due to its location, maryland benefits from huge government spending. The DOD has shifted a large portion of jobs from military bases around the country to maryland. It is projected that this shift will bring another 700,000 people to the state by 2020. Today, maryland is basically one large military base. It won’t be long before everyone in maryland will need a government clearnace just for living there. If it weren’t due to its location, maryland would have an economy on par with ohio’s or mississippi’s. It’s proximity to the nation’s capital is what gives the maryland general assembly (one of the largest crime syndicates in the country) the luxury to tax, tax, tax….

May 3, 2009 - 4:32 pm 94. ellens:

I grew up in Massachuesetts but had to move south years ago to get a job. My brothers still work in private industry there and every layoff brings feelings of dread because once those jobs go, there is nothing to replace them. For years we heard that Massachusetts lost manufacturing jobs because of ‘comparative advantage’ but one big comparative disadvantage of Massachusetts is the quality of government and the tax burden. Public unions keep electing Democrats and so the state has been sliding downhill for 50 years. The only industries that survive any length of time are tax-advantaged, like universities, or those living off government money one way or another. I love Massachusetts but its liberal policies make raising a family there a tough, tough job.

May 3, 2009 - 6:46 pm 95. eor:

Don’t come to Oregon looking for work!! Our area has 17%+ unemployment. Very scary–but what we expected from the democrat government we now have. I feel sorry for the people out of work and trying to hold on. They are stuffing pockets in Washington D.C. and taxing the rest of us for it.

May 3, 2009 - 9:32 pm 96. WhyamInotsurprised?:

My God! Did “Richard” ever finally shut up? What an anal jerk! So the author maybe used the wrong title. He wasn’t doing a full blown economic analysis of the decline of the Ohio republic. He was just stating (as I would take it) his frustration with paying high taxes and getting shit for it. Is it too much to understand his frustration. Of course there are other “causes” for the overall situation. He has a right to state his opinion just like you get to put all your links to “the data” for all of us to lookup so we can be just a smart as you!

May 3, 2009 - 11:37 pm 97. Bilgeman:

#93 harry:
“Care to hear from someone from the people’s republic of maryland?”

Maryland State Motto:

“If YOU can dream it, WE can TAX it!”.

I was involved in the gubernatorial campaign of the Right Honorable Parris L. Glendenning, (Merlin’s answer to Gray Davis), against Ellen Saurbrey, as a union “thug”.

(Sorry ’bout that).

Funny thing about the Free State is that if all the people who lived for 10 miles on either side of the I-95 median would disappear into thin air, the place would be as Republican as Indiana.

Western Murrilyn is strongly conservative, as is the Eastern Shore, and Southern Merlin, (the wild and unexplored lands south and east of Waldorf), aren’t exactly known for their Progressive pedigree.

The joint is held hostage to Bawlmer and it’s ‘burbs and the DC ‘burbs. And of course, the pack of corrupt slobbering dirt-merchants that is known as the “General Assembly”.

May 4, 2009 - 5:53 am 98. Old Soldier:

Cubedweller: I moved from Nevada to New Jersey 15 years ago – what shock! Corrupt state government everywhere you look. High income and sales taxes that just disappear into the state budget – never to be seen again in these parts. Sky-high property taxes because I don’t live in a city that’s on the receiving end of state spending.

In 8 to 10 years, my kids will be done with school and we’ll be looking for an escape south. All you good’old boys don’t worry about me – you’ll be getting a veteran, a shooter, and a hard-core Constitutional Conservative.

May 4, 2009 - 8:09 am 99. Sebastian Shaw:

A lot of President Obama’s cabinet is averse to paying taxes, although they want to increase taxes for the rest of the people.

Raising taxes is counter productive in the first place, yet the Democrats only real solution is a bigger government & more taxes.

Ohio & California have spoken. Why won’t the legislators listen?

May 4, 2009 - 10:59 am 100. Phoenix48:

A born & raised greater Clevelander (KSU ‘93) I was the last of my immediate family to leave, relocating to Phoenix in ‘99. It’s been disheartening to hear from friends and relatives more of what’s been echoed here.

I agree w/#91 Eon – I bolted because of employment struggles -with the politics giving little hope it would change. That said, while I would NEVER RETURN TO CLEVELAND, or anyhwere near it, I would consider rural ohio(at least 1-2 hours from any city).

All of my closest college friends I’ve stayed in touch went local country – such diverse rural locals as Cambrige, London, Mantua, & Willard. All are self-employed and have done well. Opting for a life similar to what we all loved at Kent – yet still remaining relatively close to family. They hate what’s happened to the state too but none have talked of leaving.

Besides return trips to keep the heart fonder – Phoenix has not materialized as the oasis I thought I’d found from 2000 to 2006. I once loved it here – the first 4 years were the best earnings of my life but with the massive illegal/legal latino migration (up 20% in 4 years – when it had already been a steady stream since the 80’s) – and the influx of California flakes – plus the problems Janet Napalitano left behind – I’ve already mentally vacated. It’s just a matter of timing.

What I thought I loved about Arizona, that it was devoid of the legacy of unionism some here have bemoaned, that it was a right to work & high growth & low tax state – that it’s twin cities Phoenix & Tucson are relatively new (and devoid of the problems of ancient beauracrates & infrastucture)- diversly beautiful in & outside of Maricopa – has a dark side too.

My nephew is at a great school in Awatuke but most of the rest of the state’s K-12 outright sucks – it’s appalling. ASU & Arizona has raised it’s tuition EVERY YEAR and with the budget problems they’ve doubled down with ticky tack fees.

The same with government. While not yet as bad as Cali – it’s all about deception – few outright tax hikes – just fees to the hilt. Long before the economy imploded here in ‘07-’08 everyone was feeling the cost of everything rising – despite always being told about how inflation & cost of living was low.

That was & is bunk. When I first moved here, after a year in Columbus, EVERYTHING WAS WAY CHEAPER – food, gas, you name it – plus there is a brisk secondary market with so many retirees. Garage sales & estate sales – I funished a two bedroom condo for less than a grand – and bought a buick 4 years old with less than 30k miles for two grand.

Now I get it – there is a lot of transience here – which partly accounts for why you can move in quick and cheap – staying is a different matter.

After four years of a Dem like Napolitano, ongoing strife – are we a sanctuary state are we not a sanctuary state – total Californication set in – the cost of living here sky rocketed while the quality of life has cratered. I’ve heard this over and over in the past four years, not just during the worst of the economy as it is now.

The truth is it isn’t just Californicators who moved in – it is very much a West & Southwestern mentality – small and midsized business are addicted to cheap labor – which is why we ARE A SANCTUARY STATE. It’s ruined California & it’s ruining Arizona – not just the latino invasion – but the plantation mentality that welcomes them.

The truth is that there hasn’t been much high-wage tech industrty growth here – so called ‘good jobs’. The companies that they lure from Cali are basically moving to Cali-lite – Cali of 1978. And they aren’t large anchor corporations – they are mom and pop outfits.

You have a tiny but vital upper crust of high earners who commute to Cali or other parts of the country (or world) who basically underwrite a service economy – gaga rich who need everything from nannies to puppy poo scrapers to accountants & lawyers – and a lot of low wage jobs – which despite protestations – employers like to give to hungry immigrants – legal or not.

Which to a former midwesterner from Ohio makes it seem very Bannana Republic. Everybody else pays for it – literally and figuratively – while those who like it (And the Pol’s) insist the majority don’t really (low INCOME tax & all).

Sure – as long as you shop the estate sales and engage in a barter economy – otherwise anytime you go anywhere and buy anything.

My two closest friends since moving here are life-long Arizonians – one’s moved back up north (Carefree) and the other is on his way. It’s a small world after all. I once dreamed about Sedona – not now. If my ship came in I’d buy a farmhouse outside of Cambridge or Jackson Ohio.

May 4, 2009 - 12:04 pm 101. skeneogden:

If the weather and trout fishing weren’t so good I’d be out of California in a second. I’m a native Californian who has seen an unprecedented decline in this state over the last five decades, however I blame the people who voted for the miscreants that occupy the legislature in Sacramento. The electorate has had numerous opportunities to right the wrongs promulgated in the statehouse and have chosen to stay with the status quo to their own detriment. Que sera sera.

May 4, 2009 - 2:08 pm 102. misanthropicus:

RE #2/Richard: [...] Opinions are nice but they are only that until you get facts. [...]

Yo, Ricky official democrat excuser – here’s one for you!
How do you explain the white flight from Los Angeles after the Rodney King riots? The fact that generally was middle class, including police and sheriff officers who left for northern pastures? Answer!

Then, if you again talk about employment, aren’t high/low employment rate actually a matter cultural?

May 4, 2009 - 2:25 pm 103. Old Soldier:

Here’s a fact (in a liberal newspaper even) – seems MA is going Gault:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/05/april_state_rev.html

May 4, 2009 - 2:31 pm 104. misanthropicus:

RE #11/Texas7: [...] Please don’t listen to anyone praising Texas and their warm weather, low cost of living and low taxes. It’s not that awesome. Nothing to see here, please stay in your own states. Thank you. [...]

You forgot this, Texas7: “… okie, now means you’re a scumbag”.

Texas7, I’m looking for someone in Texas to trade places with me in Los Angeles – would you go for it? We have a very enlightened government here, I assure you, you don’t need to speak many laguages in order to get a shoe fixed, two or three is enough, we got LA Times, periodical riots for fun and profit, the works!

Come, let’s trade places!

May 4, 2009 - 2:32 pm 105. Buckeye Abroad:

@ Richard

You are either incredibly niave or have a skull packed full of dead maggots.

@ 61 Dean Masters:

“I’ve lived in Ohio all my life and have worked in the legislative process for many years.”

Please do give details– when, where, what?

“Starting in 1994, when Speaker Jo Ann Davidson took over the Ohio House, annual budgets grew in double digits every single year as the R’s grew government.”

What, no detials and specifics? I know Ms. Davison back from the mid-90’s when she was speaker. I also know what the Ohio dems where doing– care for an open debate or you here just “ra-ra” your party membership?

“AS usual, the average person didn’t know anything about what was happening in the state capitol, so budgets continued to grow.”
The dems wanted a closed door sesscion for the state budget hearings back in 95′ after it was obvious public hearings were not going to favor their goals. Did you forget that or you were not really at the capitol during all of that?

“When the economy fell apart, so did the natural tax growth that was feeding the growing beast and guess what? The spending base couldn’t be cut – it would be too draconian and sever too many ‘essential state services’ to the public.”

Public sevices are the main contributors dem coffers. Lawyers and public unions are the bitch masters of the Ohio democrat party– always will and will be. The natural tax base (eg. businesses and individual tax payers) was already fleeing before that time. Ohio was apart of the rust belt way before 1994. Voinovich was a RINO from day one and no Rupublican at 77 S. High St. in Columbus was sad to see him go to DC. The best thing he did was buzz Bill Clinton as he was taxing into Columbus on Air Force One. Ha! That only cost the Ohio taxpayers $10,000 with a fine the FFA, but I digress.

“Now the Dems have inherited the mess and have no idea how to make it better either!”

Boiler plate democrat excuse to every disaster of their own making. A pox on all democrats and their deception of the ignorant.

May 4, 2009 - 4:19 pm 106. Ran:

Tom,
Here in Bexley the Police Department is about to get an automatic 3% per annum salary increase over the next three years. If Bexley property values and aggregate incomes in the private sector kept pace, I wouldn’t be looking at Texas.

Thanks for the post!

May 4, 2009 - 4:34 pm 107. Jim:

How bad has california gotten? I moved back to Michigan after 23 years in Cali. Thats how bad it is.

May 4, 2009 - 7:59 pm 108. mpgrunt787:

Poor Richard just doesn’t get it.

May 5, 2009 - 12:10 am 109. Paul -Indiana:

#3. David, your comment about people having left California might still be taxed, rang a bell. Here in Indiana we have a line on the state tax form to fill in the amount of our out of state purchases so we can be duly taxed on the amount. You can easily guess the amount we put on that line.

May 5, 2009 - 8:36 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: