Pajamas Media

96 Comments

1. gclarke:

Thank you!

Jun 18, 2009 - 5:56 am 2. Sam:

In what way would it be worse for Hitler to have succeeded and Stalin to fail rather than the other way around? I know certain groups would fare better or worse under Hitler but by shear numbers of slaughtered or sent to Gulags to die, Stalin’s lifetime achievements were worse overall. I don’t see why Stalinist totalitarianism is preferred to that of Hitler. Stalin was every bit the murderous monster that Hitler was and we helped him survive.

Also, England is very lucky anyone came to help at all. No one helped Ireland while the English deliberately starved half the population a hundred years before for example.

Americans have been stupid about this for too long. Fighting for others ‘freedom’ is a tired canard. If we were really doing that we failed miserably. Fighting for access to natural resources and other national interests? Sure, but please, we need to stop with the ‘freedom’ thing. Clearly, American voters value freedom and independence less and less anyway. I would never allow my son to go fight for the ‘freedom’ of Moslems to perform clitorectomies on their daughters or bury teenage girls up to the shoulders and stone them to death for courting boys or some other ‘dishonor.’ Neither should we have allowed our young men to go fight for the freedom of the Soviets and Chinese to starve or murder god knows how many millions in the years that followed WWII.

Jun 18, 2009 - 6:22 am 3. Broadsword:

“Americans have been stupid…for too long.” Sam, speak for yourself. And of course you are, and still.

Jun 18, 2009 - 6:32 am 4. JFM:

In what way would it be worse for Hitler to have succeeded and Stalin to fail rather than the other way around? I know certain groups would fare better or worse under Hitler but by shear numbers of slaughtered or sent to Gulags to die, Stalin’s lifetime achievements were worse overall

Stalin had much more time and a larger population to work with (or kill, if you prefer): the ruler of Lichtenstein will have a hard time killing millions. Also there is a special horror in hitlerism: no matter what you thought or did, no matter your age, even if you were a new born babay you were going to be killed, not by accident as in caollateral damage but purposefully. There was nothing you could do if you were born from the wrong parents.

Jun 18, 2009 - 7:37 am 5. Sam:

That characteristic does not differentiate Hitler from Stalin. Stalin’s Soviet Union did exactly the same thing only to more people.

Jun 18, 2009 - 7:46 am 6. Morton Doodslag:

“…still furious with the United States even after sixty-five years…”

Sounds just like Mary Jackson, the perennial PJM crosspatch. nevermind the fact that the notorious actions of Britain and France at the conclusion of WWI planted the seeds of WWII and made the bloodbath inevitable. Nevermind the fact that British cowardice and duplicity viz Chamberlain whetted Hitler’s rapacity and gave him the green light to proceed (Eurostyle socialist Obama with Chavez, Assad, Putin, the Mullahs comes to mind, but I digress…)

WWII was largely a result of European and British bungling and craven cowardice. America should be perpetually infuriated for being dragged into the maelstrom, and Brits and especially Euros should get down on their knees every day and abase themselves for the staggering treasure and blood American boys shed on their behalf. Any Brit who indulges in this form of rank anti-American revisionism or complains about our supposed tardiness in entering their heinous war should be slapped mercilessly until they receive a modicum of sense and proportion and common decency to refrain from such nastiness in the future. Such Britons make ME furious.

Jun 18, 2009 - 8:00 am 7. JFM:

I met one British D-Day veteran who was still furious with the United States even after sixty-five years

THat is the United States should have rushed to save those who hadn’t moved a finger for Czechoslovakia and hadn’t fired a shot while Poland was invaded. Of course, for this guy (and he is not alone) Poles and Czechs have no right to be furious about those whose inaction brought them the Nazi invasion plus 60 years of communism who nearly made Third World Nations of them.

Jun 18, 2009 - 8:27 am 8. Astra:

Had the men of Normandy 1944 failed, we could have been plunged into a Thousand-Year Reich.

Unlikely. Stalingrad was over and the Germans were bleeding out on the eastern front. I yield to no one in my respect for Allied troops fighting in Normandy, but I’m constantly amazed how many American and Brits know nothing about where the European war was really decided.

Jun 18, 2009 - 8:37 am 9. spindok:

(Sam)”In what way would it be worse for Hitler to have succeeded and Stalin to fail rather than the other way around?”

False dichotomy.

It would have been better for both to fail.

The argument is also based on the faulty premise that Stalin would have failed had the US not entered the war. There is no way of knowing but the Russians were decimating Nazi troops before we ever set foot in Europe. Just as likely that a ceasefire would have occured in the east leaving Hitler still in place in europe.

The again Pat Buchannon is too smart to come out and say it, but we know what he is really thinking

Spindok

Jun 18, 2009 - 9:06 am 10. JFM:

Unlikely. Stalingrad was over and the Germans were bleeding out on the eastern front

Had D-DAY failed and given that a repetition would havce to wait for at least a year, enormous resources who had been tied to defending against invasion would have been freeed for use in the east front. The fact is that once Gerùman economy went into war footing (becuase Hitler feared a repetitions of the 1918 revolts, this only happened after Stalingrad) the fact is that Germany had a larger industril base than Soviet Union and in addition could have used the resources of occupied countries had D-DAY failed. When you look at production figures in 1944 Germany was catching up fast with Soviet Union (Soviet production remained basically stationary nbetween 1943 and 1944) and, given the qualitative superiority of German equipment, if D-DAY had failed, the WXehrmacht would have been able at the very least to hold the Red Army at bay and possibly go again on the offensive.

Jun 18, 2009 - 9:22 am 11. elb:

“Sam:
That characteristic does not differentiate Hitler from Stalin. Stalin’s Soviet Union did exactly the same thing only to more people”

You obviously know very little about the Third Reich. Though both were murdering dictators, there were major differences between the governments and societies.

As for those who blame the USA for not entering the conflict sooner, the British didn’t exactly run with the ball from the start either. The fool Neville Chamberlain was duped by herr hitler into proclaiming ‘Peace In Our Time’ all the while Germany was preparing for the war.

Jun 18, 2009 - 9:52 am 12. COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN:

SAM
#2
Your post, is arguably the dumbest, whiniest, most cowardly piece of drivel I’ve yet experienced on this site.
You have no brains, so obviously, you have no shame. If you don’t love this country, then leave it ! It would hardly be a loss for the rest of us. You’re disgusting !
77/88
S.M.

Jun 18, 2009 - 10:02 am 13. Eric R.:

Carol,

The primary ghost of WW2 still haunting Europe – and I think you would agree with this – is its genocidal Jew-hatred. This hatred is simply all-consuming to the Euros, and at the mere mention of the word “Jew” a typical European becomes a frothing, insane maniac. You’ve written about how you have experienced this first hand.

Europe loves Hitler. They are not upset that HItler killed 6 million Jews. They are upset he did not finish the job.

They are now hoping that Iran and its terrorist allies finish the job.

Jun 18, 2009 - 10:23 am 14. J. Rockford:

> I’m constantly amazed how many American and Brits know nothing about where the European war was really decided.

I’m so tired of hearing this. Everyone knows the Soviets ground the German army down on the Eastern Front which enabled the defeat of Germany. There’s much more to the story, however. The Americans and Brits fought the Air War which ground down the Luftwaffe and pulled it from the Eastern Front. They also diverted significant German resources in the West (France) and South (Italy). The Americans and Brits defeated the U-Boats. Finally, there is Lend Lease. The only way the Red Army could keep their Tank Corps rolling were by support from hundreds of thousands of American trucks. We also supplied them with food, radios, AvGas, uniforms, etc. My point, the Americans and Brits couldn’t have beat the Germans on their own; neither could the Soviets have beat the Germans on their own.

One more point, if the Allies had failed at Normandy, the continent would not have been speaking German; they would have been speaking Russian. The Red Army would not have stopped at Berlin, but continued west and south to the Atlantic and Mediterranean. There would have been nothing to stop them.

Jun 18, 2009 - 10:31 am 15. Sam:

“You obviously know very little about the Third Reich. Though both were murdering dictators, there were major differences between the governments and societies.”

I know one difference. The Soviets murdered and enslaved more people than the Germans. I think it is you that obviously know very little about both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. If you are going to prefer one to the other I’m interested in the basis for the choice.

I agree that it would have been a great blessing for them both to fail but that is not what happened. What happened was the United States allied with the horrifyingly murderous and cruel Soviet state in order to defeat the also horrifying NAZI state. The Soviet state lived on, stronger than before, spreading its viscous ideology all over Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, and South America. Are you too young to remember everyone living under the daily threat total nuclear war? The Soviets were monsters without parallel except the other communist mass murderers they inspired and supported.

Jun 18, 2009 - 10:38 am 16. Fragmentarian:

Who’s worse? A mad dog or a killer shark? Stupid argument but what is interesting is that after all this time, while Nazism is universally reviled to the point that even its symbols are still unacceptable, somehow wearing a Che t-shirt and being a communist is alright.

Jun 18, 2009 - 10:50 am 17. BB Blackpool:

As a long time member (now retired) of HM forces and having studied closely the history of WW2 I can understand the animosity of the old and bold of that great campaign.
British, American and Canadian soldiers lie under the Normandy fields and we must never forget the sacrifice that they made in the push to rid Europe of the Nazi menace.

At that time London and other British cities had been badly damaged by the luftwaffe, they were not as active in June 1944 as the allies did at that time by and large have air superiority but soon after the V1 and V2 rockets started to fall on London.

In that sense the Brit civilian population were on the front line of this war possibly for the first time in the history of massive warfare and suffered horrendous casualties.
America never suffered in a similair way until 9/11.

It’s no excuse I know for chastising you as an American but it might explain this old soldiers thinking. Please don’t think too harshly of him and I do not apologise for his sentiment.

To be honest I personally think Britain should not have gone to war in Iraq and should not now be in Afghan. This opinion is widespread amongst HM armed forces and there is a general consensus Blair and Bush cooked up the invasion plans together. Perhaps I am suffering from boot on the other foot syndrome?

Blair is seen as an out and out hypocrite particularly as he is on the record as saying he would not encourage neither be happy if his sons joined the forces. Clearly he has no problem sending other peoples sons to their deaths provided it is not his.

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:36 am 18. Allan:

@Fragmentarian: Good point about the t-shirts!

Let’s see…the Russians were beating up on the Germans thanks to materiel from…the U.S., and even before the U.S. was officially at war, it was providing war goods to Britain. Yep, sure seems to me that the U.S. was delinquent, yessiree….

On the other hand, let us not forget that D-Day was not the FIRST attack of its sort, merely the largest. By the time of D-Day, the Germans had been chased out of Afrika, and the allies (read: Americans) were already at work in Italy and soon to arrive in Southern France. History would have been different, but not necessarily different for the winner-loser column.

And yes, I believe the older British gentleman needs a reminder about Britain’s actions (or lack thereof) for the Austrians, Czechs, and Poles.

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:49 am 19. JFM:

A few facts about WWII:

In 1942 Germany spent as much manufacturing U-Boots than in manufacturing tanks: Would there have been any Stalingrad if Germany had had twice as many tanks as historically?

Anyone has heard about the futile attemps to supply the 6th Army by air. However only half the german trsport planes were available for Stalingrad, the other half was trying to supply the Afrika Korps due to the impossibility of supplying it by sea given allied anaval superiority. Thus without allied activity in North Africa and the Mediterranean two mnay pkanes as historically would have been available to supply the 6th Army at Stalingrad.

It is well known that the failed ioperation at Kursk was what doomed the Wehrmacht on the Easten front. Right? Wrong! The fact is that the Soviet needed six months to recover from their losses, that the Germans only five weeks so Kursk despite its failure Kursk shifted the balmance towrds the Germans: it was the Allied landings in Sicily, who forced Geramny to send elite troops away from the Eastern front in order to prepare for Italy’s defection. Also those, landings were crucial for the Red Air Force being able to acquiere air superiority over Kursk

We all know how deadly the German 88s were against tanks. Well most of them were in Germaany facing Allied bombers instead of in Russia slaughtering tanks.

Jun 18, 2009 - 12:13 pm 20. Sam:

I have no idea what you are going on about Moran, I gather you disagree with some assertion I have made. Instead of frothing and sputtering try presenting a counter argument with some content. I’ll even give you a hand:

Saving western Europe from Nazism at the cost of eastern Europe and Asia under the Soviets and Mao was worth the cost in American lives because … ( you fill in rationale here.)

I will say ahead of time that ‘it saved lives’ or ’saved freedom’ or some such argument would be hard to make since so many millions suffered and died in slavery, post WWII, in these places. A more realistic tack would probably have something to do with securing access to the vital oil resources in middle east from either the Nazis or the Soviets.

It isn’t an argument about which was better. It is an argument about whether or not the cost to the US and its citizenry was worth the result.

Jun 18, 2009 - 12:31 pm 21. jerryofva:

If the Normandy Invasion had failed then sometime in August 1945 there would have been a flash of light in the early morning over Berlin and the captial of Nazidom would have been destroyed by the first Atomic Bomb.

Jun 18, 2009 - 12:32 pm 22. Brian Richard Allen:

Thank you, Carol Gould, for the reminder that the Limeys and every other of the Earth’s pathological ingrates rationalize and justify their sorry squalid states’ entire populations’ projection of their collectivized self-loathing and morbid envy, hatred and rage on the greatest nation their has ever been. Without whose more than two hundred years of willing sacrifices of hundreds of thousands of gallons of blood and of Trillions of Dollars of our treasure not a single man on Earth now free would even know the meaning of the word.

Including the self-and-own-culture loathing, un-and-anti-American, moronically marijuana-mumbling, mobbed-up, Mussolini-modeled, modified-Marxist, murtadd-Muslim, galabia-clad glove-puppet, who presently besquats and bemanures our once most hallowed house while pretending to what was once but our nation’s “presidency.”

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles Califobambicated 90028
And the Far Abroad

Jun 18, 2009 - 12:37 pm 23. ic:

“In what way would it be worse for Hitler to have succeeded and Stalin to fail rather than the other way around?”

Stalin had the luck that we were exhausted and didn’t care if he killed his own people. We didn’t do much when Mao killed his multi-millions either. In fact, there’s nothing we could do. If the Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbor, and had Hitler not been stupid enough to declare war on us, we might have stayed put, and meddled at the sideline. We were dragged into the War, not by Britain or France, but by the Japanese and Hitler. Stalin had not declared war on us, ergo he could killed as many millions as he liked.

Fighting for freedom, ours and theirs, is our govt.’s propaganda. Judging from the way we behave now, we don’t care much about our own freedom at all. Fighting for oil and natural resources is anti-American propaganda. we can use that money to pay Canada for all those resources that we were supposed to fight for in the Middle East.

Jun 18, 2009 - 1:06 pm 24. bubblehead:

#21 jerryofva

You have the right idea, but the wrong target. The plans were already drawn up and targets assigned. The first bomb was designated for Munich; the second for Neuremberg and there was a third already designated, but I forget where.

Jun 18, 2009 - 1:23 pm 25. njcommuter:

That elderly Brit is mistaken in blaming Roosevelt. Blame America if you like; Roosevelt was limited in what he could do by public opinion and domestic politics. Instead of blaming Roosevelt, he should be thanking God for Pearl Harbor.

Jun 18, 2009 - 1:40 pm 26. Tri Geek:

Sam Said: Americans have been stupid about this for too long. Fighting for others ‘freedom’ is a tired canard. If we were really doing that we failed miserably. Fighting for access to natural resources and other national interests? Sure, but please, we need to stop with the ‘freedom’ thing.

Sam- What natural resources did we gain from Western Europe after WWII? We spent Millions on helping them rebuild their infastructure and economies. Same with Japan. What IS a tired canard, is the left calling the US imperialists. European countries (mostly France & England)have been imperialists, exploiting Afican and Asian countries for centuries. What has the US exploited? We rebuilt our two greatest economic comeptitors- Japan & Germany. France was in Vietnam to exploit their rubber, what exactly did the US want to exploit from Vietnam? They had nothing we needed. Yes, we were there to stop the spread of communism. When we failed millions died, but the left still finds communists cool, and balme everything on the US.

Jun 18, 2009 - 2:24 pm 27. Marie Claude:

#7
the great denier
As a former instructor of military history and lover of history, let me address four of these myths that are particularly annoying and misleading:

First, France’s army did not simply surrender or run away in 1940, as ignorant American Know-Nothing conservatives claim.

finally, some serious person has balls LMAO

“No army in the world at that time could have withstood Germany’s blitzkrieg, planned by the brilliant Erich von Manstein, and led by the audacious Heinz Guderian, and Erwin Rommel –three of modern history’s greatest generals

Britain’s well-trained expeditionary force in France was beaten just as quickly and thoroughly as the French, and saved itself only by abandoning its French allies and fleeing across the Channel.

France lost 217,000 dead and 400,000 wounded.

Third – Germany’s Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe were crushed well before D-Day. In commemorating the war, we must remember to salute the courage and valor of Russia’s dauntless soldiers and pilots who, like German soldiers, fought magnificently albeit for criminal regimes. World War II in Europe was not won just at D-Day, as popular myth has it. Germany’s army and air force were broken on the Eastern Front’s titanic battles.

When the Allies landed in Normandy, they met battered German forces with no air cover, crippled by lack of fuel and supplies, unable to move in daytime. Even so, the Germans fought like tigers. Had the invading US, British and Canadians encountered the 1940’s Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe, the outcome may well have been different.”

http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/getting-to-the-truth-about-world-war-ii.aspx

Jun 18, 2009 - 2:24 pm 28. Sam:

Fighting for natural resources can be a perfectly legitimate motivation. I do not present it as a criticism. Not only American interests but those of many (most?) other countries were well served by the US preventing the seizure of middle eastern oil resources by the Soviets or the Nazis, including the oil states themselves. I doubt there is a parallel in history to compare how we treated the oil states given the disparity of power and the importance of the resource.

Jun 18, 2009 - 2:25 pm 29. JMH:

Reasoning with him that the United States invaded Afghanistan because it had been attacked on September 11, 2001, made no difference. He was determined to paint America as almost criminally negligent in its refusal to come to Britain’s aid as soon as war was declared in 1939.

As JFM said, the old Brit should consider himself lucky America came to his aid while it still mattered. Much more than what the Brits did for the Czechs.

A generation earlier, thousands of Americans died in the mud to keep Europe free from tyrants. They left with Europe “safe” for democarcy, but within fifteen years not one, not two, but three brutal despots came to power on the continent. France and England could have crushed all three if they’d shown the least inclination to foresight and action. Even as late as 1937 they could have toppled Hitler and his Reich before it menaced the world. If they’d had the guts or the intelligence. And now this old fool complains the sons of those Americans who came home alive from WWI didn’t show up fast enough to risk their lives cleaning up another European mess that the Europeans had shown no desire to deal with until it was too big for them to ignore.

The ungrateful SOB.

They say that God helps those who help themselves. I guess he created America to help everybody else.

Jun 18, 2009 - 3:12 pm 30. elb:

Sam,

As a point of reference I am probably older then you. I have been studied both post WWI Germany and post-Czarist Russia for sometime. My father liberated Dachau, my family came from Auschwitz.My family also fled Kiev after witnessing Cossacks slaughter people and my great-grandfather bailed out of the Czar’s Army. So I have some rooted background regarding the subject matter.

More to the point. If I had to pick one or the other, it’s Russia. Yes, Stalin and his henchmen murdered millions, sent more to the zones and the gulags.He turned on EVERYONE who was loyal to him including his first wife (who he murdered in the Kemlin), his son (who was captured by the Nazis), Molotov, Beria and his top general Zhukov. There was Doctor’s plot and more that kept the NKVD, The KBG, the GRU and the Lubyanka busy. And the Cold War was a nasty piece of work.

But a victorious Hitler would have been far worse. I have walked the streets of Moscow, Berlin and Munich and cannot even imagine what the world would have been like had hitler won.

As much as you detest communism, I detest National Socialism much, much more.

Jun 18, 2009 - 3:23 pm 31. elb:

Sam also said:

“It isn’t an argument about which was better. It is an argument about whether or not the cost to the US and its citizenry was worth the result.”

Addressing this, I also say yes, it was worth American and Allied lives.

Isolationists (you can substitute the word anti-Semites) like Joe Kennedy, Henry Ford, Charles Lindberg, and today’s Patrick Buchanan may not agree but this is still a free country…one that would have not be so free if the Austrian corporal had had his wiay.

Jun 18, 2009 - 3:32 pm 32. myth buster:

The mistake we made was not finishing the job. After WWII, we had the monopoly on the atomic bomb, and we had air bases set occupied in Germany and Japan. We could have demanded anything and everything from Stalin, and he would have had to comply because we could nuke him and he was powerless to stop us. Instead, we adopted a policy of containment, and 40 years of Cold War was the result.

Jun 18, 2009 - 4:03 pm 33. Spindok:

Sam quoth “Saving western Europe from Nazism at the cost of eastern Europe and Asia under the Soviets and Mao was worth the cost in American lives because … ( you fill in rationale here.)”

In order to make this argument one must prove that defeating Mao and Stalin was possible by military means. Specifically by US military means alone as all other western powers were either under occupation, or near so, and stretched to their limits. That is a rather thin line as the US alone could not have possibly defeated even Nazi Germany by itself at any point in WWII.

I cannot imagine what you are proposing should have been done. Spell it out.

You said: “It isn’t an argument about which was better.”

Thank you for conceding my point since you asked “which would have been better..”

You wont find any lovers of Stalin or Mao here.

I would propose a premise:

Military defeat, occupation, and total change of regime, was possible and attained by foreign powers in the case of Nazi Germany. It has never been so in the case of Russia or China whenever attempted – ever.

- So opposition by other means. Including real threat of nuclear holocaust, which nearly happened more than once, did help in the collapse of the Soviet empire.

China as always is an issue but as a wise man once said “you never conquer China, you just become Chinese.”

“Cost of American lives”. Again you seem to be proposing doing nothing, or making an alliance with Hitler. We only declared war against Japan after Pearl Harbor. The Nazis declared war against the US 3 days later. What choices did you want us to make at that point?

Spindok

Spindok

Jun 18, 2009 - 4:07 pm 34. Doc:

I was in Normandy for D-Day this year and met many vets who were far from whiny. To a man they said they were doing what was needed and they were not heroes. They had incredible stories to tell. The Normans were still so grateful to the British and Americans. Huge flags flying and banners of gratitude. It was a wonderful experience and satisfying to know that the Battle of Normandy has not been forgotten.

Jun 18, 2009 - 5:48 pm 35. Marie Claude:

# 19, and yes Germans had such an armada on the eastern front for fighting the communists, even Franco got trapped, he sent a bataillon of his best recrues (he was supposed neutral though).

It is at the request of Stalin that the second front was open in north Africa

Jun 18, 2009 - 5:53 pm 36. Marie Claude:

#26
“What natural resources did we gain from Western Europe after WWII? We spent Millions on helping them rebuild their infastructure and economies.”

that your blind bombing destroyed, OK they were military objectives, but lots were not useful, it’s why a village in Normandy still boycott the Dday anniversary

as far as Viet Nam war, OK, It was a colony, but hadn’t the US provided us the means, planes, tanks and guns (you don’t remember, Germans had taken all our military off,(not only that, there would not have been a french war in Viet Nam, cuz independance was in the air after WWII. We were there to fight the communist too, and almost that.

Jun 18, 2009 - 6:12 pm 37. Brian Richard Allen:

elb: … “” … As much as you detest communism, I detest National Socialism much, much more. “”

That is as may be.

But you aught know that the degree of your detestation doesn’t alter one iota the reality that both are siblings from the same blood-line and from the same, rooted in envy, hatred and rage and degenerated into psychopathology, Euro-peon derangement.

Under whose jack-boots, as under every other Euro-peon form of slavery, tyranny and totalitarianism: Imperialism, Colonialism, Mercantilism, Progressivism, Fabianism and Socialism being only some of their names; billions of men have been and/or are still enslaved — at least two billion of them, in Asia, as I write — and hundreds of millions have perished already. And/or enjoy only those limited “freedoms” as are “granted” them by whatever state apparatus owns and controls and even beyond-the-grave, taxes their lives’ energies.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles Califeuropeonicated 90028
And the Far Abroad

Jun 18, 2009 - 8:49 pm 38. elb:

Dear Brian Richard Allen,

I wholeheartedly agree that communism and the other ‘isms’ propagate the evils of slavery, tyranny and totalitarianism and more.

I once heard it estimated that between the Great Voshad, General Secretary of the Central Committee: Stalin and hitler, 200,000,000 lives were lost.

All were unnecessary and brutal deaths. And on a personal basis, I had family who were threatened by both Russia and Germany.

And I have experienced the period of time Since Russia won:Sputnik, Kruschev banging his shoe, Yeltsen holding up in their White House and then taking it back from the generals. Not a garden of roses. The Cold War and beyond was like the Dark Ages.

But I honestly believe that myself and a great deal of others…whole masses of them…would not be in existence if the Third Reich had succeeded.

Stalin was a homicidal maniac who killed to live.
hitler a psychotic who lived to kill, and spread his net quite wide.

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:19 pm 39. JFM:

Hum, the French lost 100,000 men in 1940 not 200,000. To put it in perspective the French Army lost men at a higher rate than at Verdun. The problem was not in the dying but in the killing: the only managezd to kill one fourth of their own death casualties. (”No man has evbder won a war by dying for his country, you win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his country” George S Patton).

Now, Marc Bloch’s “L’etrange défaite”, one of the ever best books about France’s fall, evidences that French Army’s it was not merely a problem of tank deployment but taht the French Army was a deeply sick body: neither an army of warriors or an army of soldiers army but an army of bureaucrats.

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:23 pm 40. Grace O'Malley:

Of course he didn’t want you to film his ranting, he doesn’t everyone to see the dolt he is, live and in living color. I had 5 uncles who fought in WWII, one of whom came out of the Battle of the Bulge with one sock and his dog tags on. Another disabled for the rest of his life after his time in the Philippines. This man has lived with Feudalism lite for so long it doesn’t seem to occur him to have some sense of either national or personal responsibility.
I have to point out also that the invasion of North Africa American troops were quite poorly prepared as we attempted to get on war footing rapidly. That invasion included nurses wading ashore with the soldiers, carrying backpacks with necessary supplies. Often those nurses were too short to stay above water and soldiers put themselves at risk to hold them up to keep their heads above water, and while this was happening it was FRENCH troops shooting at them. (And if I perish-Frontline US Army Nurses in WWII)But with pure dogged determination we survived and ultimately beat Rommel. What makes you think that had D-Day failed we wouldn’t have been any less dogged?
Last as an RN I once took care of a man who told me had had been part of Hitlers Army. He told me this after I asked if his accent was Dutch. He had been part of Germany’s 6th Army and thus had survived Stalingrad. Following his return to Germany and a brief hospitalization he was reassigned to a different unit. Ultimately he ended up at Normandy and a POW with the English. He talked about how badly fed and treated he was under the English. Some 6 months later he ended up under the province of the Americans. He still talked reverently about how well he was fed every day. He spoke about how profoundly that impacted his thoughts about America and democracy. His family farm was in the area that was Poland, and thus they lost their farm when all Germans were required to leave the area, even those like his family who had been there and farming for more than 400 years. In 1947 he father starved to death. Only a few months later his mother also died, he believed of a broken heart. She just quit living. In 1952 he was given the opportunity to emigrate to this country, he said he jumped at the chance because he was so impressed with a country that would take care of it’s enemies the way he had been taken care of. I work as a night nurse in outpatient so we don’t have real sick folks, they just have something in their heart that needs a procedure. I often have the opportunity in the middle of the night to chat with folks as it is not often real busy. I spent nearly an hour with this man.
The point is that the soldier from Britain is angry no matter what was done for him, we didn’t do it soon enough. And the soldier that fought for Hitler weeps for the goodness shown to him, the enemy.
It’s all about one’s perspective.

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:39 pm 41. elb:

Another thing about Fascism verses Communism:

Destroying Fascism was an imperative. Circumstance dictated it, Germany and the NSDAP declared war upon us. And from all that was revealed about the Nazis, it’s also imperative they stay destroyed.

For a variety of reasons, we chose to tolerate Communism. In the end, the evil ‘ism’ destroyed itself.

Jun 18, 2009 - 11:41 pm 42. Marie Claude:

humm

L’Étrange Défaite peut se voir comme la déposition d’un témoin face au tribunal de l’Histoire. Il comporte trois parties inégales. En guise d’introduction, Marc Bloch présente sa position personnelle et son action au cours de la campagne de 1940 dans une Présentation du témoin. La déposition de ce témoin constitue l’essentiel de l’ouvrage, La déposition d’un vaincu. Il y analyse les carences de l’armée française durant l’avant-guerre et la guerre. Il conclut par un Examen de conscience d’un Français, où il fait le lien entre les carences observées et celles qu’il identifie dans la société française de l’Entre-deux-guerres…

“France’s armies and generals, trained to re-fight World War I, were overwhelmed by lightening warfare. France was then still a largely agricultural society. Blitzkrieg – now adopted by all major modern armed forces – was designed to strike an enemy’s brain rather than body, paralyzing his ability to manage large forces or to fight. The Germans called it their `silver bullet.’”

the French lost 100,000 men in 1940 not 200,000.

WW2 military death 217 600

1940 :

« 100000 morts oubliés » de JP Richardot (le Cherche Midi éditeur).

« En mai-juin 1940, plus de 100000 hommes se sont fait tuer sur place pour défendre la France et l’Angleterre, dont ils ont sauvé le corps expéditionnaire à Dunkerque.
Ce livre est leur histoire. Au cours des 47 jours de la bataille, à maintes reprises, en Ardennes, Argonne, Flandre, Picardie, Normandie (Saint-Valery-en-Caux), à Dunkerque, et devant Lyon, la proportion de soldats français tués en résistant à l’invasion a atteint 90 % des effectifs engagés.
Les Allemands ont eu par jour plus de 2000 soldats mis hors de combat, dont une moitié de tués”

L’Étrange Défaite … Bien que soldats de métiers, les soldats britanniques ont apparemment une conduite désastreuse, de soldats « pillards et paillards ». Ce qui renforce dans la population paysanne, qu’ils méprisent, une anglophobie latente liée à des réminiscences historiques. Ce sentiment est renforcé lorsqu’on s’aperçoit que les Britanniques fuient les premiers et jouent des coudes pour être évacués, faisant sauter des ponts pour couvrir leur retraite sans souci des troupes françaises restées en arrière. « Ils refusaient, assez naturellement, de se laisser englober, corps et biens, dans un désastre dont ils ne se jugeaient pas responsables ». Les Britanniques, de leur côté, jugent sans indulgence (« notre prestige avait vécu et on ne nous le cacha guère ») les insuffisances de l’armée française, qui mène une propagande anglophobe pour cacher ses propres échecs.

and

- L’objectivité de l’histoire suppose-t-elle l’impartialité de l’historien ?

one of the philophy items of the 2009 baccalaureat

History is a human science where judgements are not mere objectivity

“La subjectivité est une interprétation selon un point de vue au détriment des autres. L’explication du passé par rapport au présent est forcément infidèle (puisque l’homme n’est pas dans le passé”

Now about Bloch, he wrote “l’étrange défaite” “à chaud” without perspective, with his analyse of the army corporation between the 2 WW, nonentheless that is considérated as a witness

Jun 19, 2009 - 1:40 am 43. Marie Claude:

and while this was happening it was FRENCH troops shooting at them.

oolala, the dirty French made that ?

sh*t, Mers el Kebir was still in their memory !

but they are parading there :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x92a0q_larmee-americaine-en-afrique-du-nor_shortfilms

Jun 19, 2009 - 1:45 am 44. Michael:

Grace O’Malley:

“He talked about how badly fed and treated he was under the English”

I don’t think we were eating all that well at the time. One of my friends was shot down over Germany in 1943. He doesn’t talk much about his time in captivity. He did tell me though that his main memory was of always being hungry. He was also beaten regularly and spent many months in chains.

Jun 19, 2009 - 3:05 am 45. JFM:

and while this was happening it was FRENCH troops shooting at them.

And what were Americans expecting? French troops had to put a show in order to prevent the so-called Free Zone aka Vichy France from being invaded by the Germans like they ended doing. Another thing is that the French soldiers put their heart in repelling the Americans: at this point even the Marines who had been studying it for two decades were unable to land in face of a half-serious opposition like evidenced by the chaos in the unopposed landings at Guadalcanal. And in Torch it wasn’t the Marines but the US Army: even half hearted French opposition would have spelled doom for the landings.

Context; A few months before Torch, General Juin (I believe but I am not 100% sure it was him) from later Cassino fame was assigned to North Africa. Upon the first meeting with his staff he said: “Gentlemen it is completely out of question of having a plan for defending North Africa against the Allies, now let’s concentrate on the plan against the Axis”

Jun 19, 2009 - 6:11 am 46. JMH:

French troops had to put a show in order to prevent the so-called Free Zone aka Vichy France from being invaded by the Germans like they ended doing

This is the same excuse offered for all those “moderate” muslims who can’t stand up to the terrorists because they worry about what the terrorists might do to them.

It occurs to me that if any decision in your life should be made with a minimum of self-serving cynicism, it ought to be the decision about who you’re going to shoot at.

Jun 19, 2009 - 9:22 am 47. Another Chuck:

The most sensible comment on the subject came from Harry Truman who said that if Hitler was winning we should support Stalin, if Stalin was winning we should support Hitler. Of course, this was before Pearl Harbor which closed that door, and he wasn’t in charge anyway. The fool was.

Jun 19, 2009 - 9:34 am 48. Marie Claude:

And what were Americans expecting? French troops had to put a show in order to prevent the so-called Free Zone aka Vichy France from being invaded by the Germans like they ended doing.

Hitler has a plan to invade the half part of France, that wasn’t occupied (that still benefitted of a relative autonomy, if the French were not behaving ; obviously the project of a disembarquement in North Africa (which was under the rules of Vichy with a even more relative autonomy)) would cause it, and that is what happened just after that the “Torch” operation started ; in november 1942 this 2nd part of France had to suffer the prejudices of Gestapo and of the german army occupation.

Now your laius is nicely written, I wouldn’t say that the facts are wrong but that they are colored with your “feelings” and therefore that they are ment to show a jugement, in the occurence, that we all were Vichy sympatisans LMAO

Cette intervention soulève toutefois un problème politique crucial.
Appartenant à l’empire français, Maroc, Algérie et Tunisie relèvent de
l’autorité du gouvernement de Vichy avec lequel les Américains
entretiennent toujours des relations diplomatiques. L’armée reconstituée
après l’armistice y compte quelque 110 000 hommes.

Les Alliés risquent de rencontrer une vive opposition qui pourrait donner lieu à de terribles combats. La question se pose alors de savoir s’il convient de se rapprocher de la résistance locale, de trouver un accord avec les chefs de l’Afrique française du Nord (AFN). Méfiants à l’égard du
général de Gaulle, chef des Français libres, qui leur semble compter
peu de partisans en AFN, les Américains se tournent vers le général
Giraud, évadé d’Allemagne en avril. Celui-ci, ayant fait une grande
partie de sa carrière en Afrique, leur semble davantage susceptible de
rallier l’armée d’Afrique. Méfiants également à l’égard des hauts
responsables civils et militaires, ils décident de s’appuyer sur la
résistance locale car ils ne peuvent prendre le risque d’un échec

Sur le secteur d’Alger, les opérations se déroulent sans trop de problèmes,
notamment grâce à l’action de quatre cents jeunes résistants.

Dans le port d’Alger, en revanche, les difficultés sont plus sérieuses.
Deux torpilleurs britanniques tentent de forcer l’entrée de la rade pour
y débarquer un détachement américain ils doivent se retirer, laissant derrière eux quelque 200 Américains rapidement faits prisonniers…

yeah, MERS EL KEBIR still in the memories !

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sga/content/download/46012/457602/file/n29_-_operation_torch_8_novembre_1942_mc29.pdf

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:01 am 49. Marie Claude:

“It occurs to me that if any decision in your life should be made with a minimum of self-serving cynicism, it ought to be the decision about who you’re going to shoot at.”

yeah, and what were/are you doing to illustrate such noble sentiments ?

you’re not taking much risks in displaying your opinion on the supposed “coward frenchs”, this is a site where most of the persons endorsed this “surrender-monkeys” thing, a very historical fact in the medias anales !

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:10 am 50. JMH:

yeah, and what were/are you doing to illustrate such noble sentiments ?

I’m not shooting at any French people, for one thing. Frankly, you have a better President at the moment than we do.

If you’re too weak to fight for your own freedom, that’s one thing. It happens. But if you have any strength and you use it to fight against your would-be liberators, well, don’t be shocked if you’re considered the enemy. “Mais oui, mes amis, there were… complications…” is not an excuse. It’s a con.

What I’m saying is, courage and morality require that you stop hedging bets when you start shooting bullets.

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:56 am 51. JFM:

Marie Claude

In ca

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:03 am 52. Marie Claude:

OK, it’s not what I consider a neutal answer, but of a national position, now we had good raisons to not consider the Brits as the fairest alliees

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:08 am 53. Marie Claude:

In ca ??? what’s that ?

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:12 am 54. JFM:

Marie Claude

In case you haven’t noticed I was defending</b< the French. As I said they could’t just throw flowers at the Americans and have a few beers with them. They were, mutatis mutandis, in the same situation than someone whose family is held hostage by an intruder who tells him to shoot at the cops or he will kill his beloved ones.

BTW: What Mers el Kebir has to do with Mers el Kebir?

BTW2: Because of Mers el Kebir the British tried to keep a low profile. From distant memories they displayed American flags and some commando units had American uniforms

BTW3: When General Giraud was picked up from the French coast by HMS Seraph her crew wore American uniforms. Again because of Mers el Kebir. (HMS Seraph was a submarine who ha

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:28 am 55. Grace O'Malley:

Marie Claude, you mean the French were acting in their own self interest? I’m shocked, just shocked. Of course you do know where socialism itself started aren’t you? Or where the terms left wing and right wing also come from?

The misery of our people is horrible to behold! Millions of the industrial proletariat are unemployed and starving; the whole of the middle class and the small artisans have been impoverished. This is a phrase that could have been said by any Marxist in any country during the Great Depression. It was not however. It was said by Hitler on Feb. 1 1933 as part of a speech that was a proclamation to the German nation. Socialism is socialism no matter what it is ultimately labeled. And socialism did not start in either Russia or Germany. Nationalism did not start in Germany nor in the 20th century.

Michael, my story was not meant to denigrate what England or what it’s people went through. It was meant to illustrate that one man blames the US no matter the blood shed for him and his, and another loves us simply because we were able to ensure he wasn’t hungry. Do you know how frustrating it is for Americans to give their sons lives for other peoples freedoms and to have those people act like we did little but piss in the wind? Especially when those complaining were the ones cheering Chamberlain and his “peace in our time”.

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:36 am 56. JFM:

BTW: What Mers el Kebir has to do with Mers el Kebir?

Should have read: What America has to do with Mers el Kebir?

We could also remind what general de Gaulle said to a former friend from officer school who had been captured in Syria while fighting British and Free France and was telling De Gaulle about Mers el Kebir:

“I know, from very reliable sources, that the Germans are in Paris”

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:49 am 57. Marie Claude:

Grace O Maley does it happen to you to think about it sometimes ? LMAO

Jun 19, 2009 - 11:55 am 58. Grace O'Malley:

Are you telling me you don’t know you’re own history Marie? Not familiar with Henry de Saint Simon? Have any idea of what happened in the French Revolution and the forced centralization of the Provinces? Hell even the Communist color red comes out of the failed French Revolution. Perhaps however your ignorance is simply showing, or your lack of ability to think.

Jun 19, 2009 - 12:30 pm 59. Marie Claude:

JFM, cool, don’t bring your best moovie on the stage

Jun 19, 2009 - 12:38 pm 60. Marie Claude:

Grace, do me a favor, forget me Iam too ignorant comparing with you

Jun 19, 2009 - 1:22 pm 61. JFM:

JFM, cool, don’t bring your best moovie on the stage

Marie Claude

It would be a miracle if I didn’t mention “Casablanca” and Germans have outrlawed miracles.

Jun 19, 2009 - 1:40 pm 62. Marie Claude:

JFM how nice, thank you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt1vQ81jNWw

Jun 19, 2009 - 3:03 pm 63. njcommuter:

J. Rockford:
<I’m so tired of hearing this. Everyone knows the Soviets ground the German army down on the Eastern Front which enabled the defeat of Germany.

In There’s A War To Be Won, Geoffrey Perrett reports that some of the Germans fighting at the Bulge had been drawn from the Russian front. The survivors reported later than the Russian artillery barrages were intense, but not nearly enough to prepare them for the American use of artillery. American forces were actually short of shells and had to use them carefully, but the combination of fire-control centers, the new Time-On-Target artillery doctrine, and the new technology of proximity fusing (used for the first time over land at the Bulge) made them an order of magnitude more effective, tube-for-tube and shell-for-shell.

Stalin, on the other hand, treated his soldiers’ lives as a cheap commodity–not unlike Napoleon.

Jun 19, 2009 - 3:26 pm 64. JFM:

Mrs O’Mailey

Actually Communist red doesn’t come from the red in French flag (blue and red from the colors in Paris’ coat of arms, white from the banner of the Kings of France) but from the red of the flag of martial law proclaimed by La Fayette against a workers insurrectional strike.

About Communists and French Reviolution, there was a such Babeouf who can be considered the first Communist. Robespierre had him shortened by a head.

Jun 19, 2009 - 3:55 pm 65. Marie Claude:

Babeuf, cher monsieur(your a mine of surprises LMAO), babouvism was the movement that inspired the 1848 revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois-No%C3%ABl_Babeuf

http://www.ohio.edu/chastain/ac/babouvis.htm

Jun 19, 2009 - 5:50 pm 66. MiamaMan:

2. Sam:

[In what way would it be worse for Hitler to have succeeded and Stalin to fail rather than the other way around? I know certain groups would fare better or worse under Hitler but by shear numbers of slaughtered or sent to Gulags to die, Stalin’s lifetime achievements were worse overall. I don’t see why Stalinist totalitarianism is preferred to that of Hitler. Stalin was every bit the murderous monster that Hitler was and we helped him survive.]

Sam, Stalin certainly killed more people than Hitler, but the latter was a greater menace, for his plan were far reaching and darker.

8. Astra:

Had the men of Normandy 1944 failed, we could have been plunged into a Thousand-Year Reich.

[Unlikely. Stalingrad was over and the Germans were bleeding out on the eastern front. I yield to no one in my respect for Allied troops fighting in Normandy, but I’m constantly amazed how many American and Brits know nothing about where the European war was really decided.]

Correct, Hitler lost the war at Dunkirk, very early on; he did not know it at the time. The Dunkirk mistake was tremendous; generals Halder and Guderian were both dumbfounded by Hitler’s refusal to advance. By the time he gave Goering the go ahead, a mysterious, and out-of-season bad weather impaired the Luftwaffe. The Brits were able to bring back 200,000 soldiers, plus about 100,000 frenchies.

Of course, the Yugoslavian and Greek campaigns shortened the war, for if Hitler has started in May, Moscow was doomed, and the war would have lasted a few more years. Likewise, Hitler would have won the Russian campaign had he given autonomy to the Ukraine after attacking, instead of letting the Einsatzgruppen loose there.

Jun 19, 2009 - 8:01 pm 67. MiamaMan:

Madame Marie Claude, c’est votre ami, l’idiot.

Je me demande combien de membres de votre famille ont été avec le Maquis? Ou ont-ils été des collaborateurs, des gens de Laval, l’élevage des juifs à Drancy?

Les Frogs ont une sombre histoire, demandez les assassins de Jean Moulin à Lyon, apparemment trahi par les communistes.

Jun 19, 2009 - 8:10 pm 68. Marie Claude:

MiamaMan t’aimes bien qu’on te remarque, he ? est’ce que ton ancestry a fait l’inquisition et les bûchers pour les juifs d’Espagne ?

ou a juste tiré sur Garcia Lorca, ou a creusé des fosses pour enfouir tous les cadavres ?

Moi,mon colon, mes grand-pères ont fait la guerre de 14-18

Jun 19, 2009 - 10:14 pm 69. MiamaMan:

Madame Marie Claude,

Vous êtes les meilleurs!

Je viens d’essayer de vérifier sur votre langue forte, he, he, he (rire en français).

Homo, Commie, Lorca, oui, je peux voir un de mes ancêtres tournage lui. Au revoir!

L’Idiot

Jun 20, 2009 - 5:06 am 70. MiamaMan:

MC:

Je cherche pour vous sur la page Facebook. Vous avez mentionné que vous étiez là. J’ai trouvé une certaine Marie-Claude Bourbonnais. Est-ce vous?, S’il vous plaît des conseils, ou de fournir l’adresse Facebook. Merci d’avance!

Pierrot.

Jun 20, 2009 - 5:29 am 71. trapper:

It is fun and interesting to consider hypotheticals but, like the yank hating British vet, it is easy to get too committed to a point of view. I am grateful to all who defeated the Nazis.

Jun 20, 2009 - 9:25 am 72. Marie Claude:

tiens, j’ai été censurée !

pourtant je n’ai rien dit d’irrelevant, seulement que je n’étais pas bourbonnaise, and thus not the cousin of the spanish king

z’est quoi ze problem ?

Jun 20, 2009 - 11:29 am 73. JFM:

MiaMa and Marie Claude

Speaking French here is not polite.

Jun 20, 2009 - 2:17 pm 74. Marie Claude:

hehe daddy’s back

anyway he wasn’t telling anything interesting, just that he found a pin-up on facebook and that he thought to “undermine” me with that

Jun 20, 2009 - 3:00 pm 75. db:

I’ve lived in Europe for the last 10 years. I believe Europeans are very much at peace with one another. Europeans long ago have gotten over the Wars. Only the Americans are obsessed with Hitler/Nazis/Stalin/etc. Everytime I have an American visitor what is they want to talk about…WWII, Hilter, etc. Time to get over it.

Jun 21, 2009 - 12:08 am 76. JFM:

Yes, Europenas have forgotten about Hitler, Nazis and everything else. Now they have a common ennemy: America (thats is how you build a nation, aka the EU: with a common ennemy). Give them fify years more and Hitler and the Nazis will become european heroes defending the common fatherland against Russians and Americans.

After all, Vlad Tepes, aka Vlad the Implaer aka Count Dracula is a hero in Rumania.

Jun 21, 2009 - 12:40 am 77. Marie Claude:

“Now they have a common ennemy: America”

how comes ? you like to think being the victim of the pseudo vindicativeness of the world ; who in Europe said “death to America” ? when only political disagreements occur.

“thats is how you build a nation, aka the EU: with a common ennemy”

umm Europe construction was in Roosvelt and Churchill plans at the first convention of atlantic Alliance (1941 ?)

Even Churchill made the antecedent in proclaming that France and GB would have the same government… guess, no French wanted/wants to be ruled by a Brit, and this was’nt from the late days, but since the centenary war !

and your country need to focuse and demonise France to go at war, we were your REAL enemy one could have thought !

Hitler belongs to Germany’s memory, not our’s, guess who is our hero ?
besides we don’t admire foreigners ! from where come our arrogance

Jun 21, 2009 - 2:57 am 78. MiamaMan:

74. Marie Claude:

[anyway he wasn’t telling anything interesting, just that he found a pin-up on facebook and that he thought to “undermine” me with that]

I am sorry you are not Madame Marie Claude Bourbonnais, ha, ha, ha. I wasn’t trying to “undermine” you, mon ami.

For once Marie Claude is right, Hitler’s “Welchestauung” is that of Germany, or the Teuton soul. Pierrot is also France’s hero. Columbine and Harlequin follow closely.

But really, France’s hero is La Pucelle, Jeanne D’Arc, she had the divine afflatus. This is the high mark of the French race.

And, of course, now we have Jean Marais Fantomas Sarkozy, Le Roi Bling Bling, as French as you can get it. Check this out, please:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uxb0JHqzlA

Jun 21, 2009 - 7:38 am 79. JFM:

Mrs Marie Claude

I teel this bec ause I have seen it: Europeans
, and most specially French, who have a burning hate for America they never had for the Nazis (along with a “courage” in opoosing America they never had against the Nazis)

The rest is just common sense, just as the French and English nation were forged in the Hundred Yeasr War (eg before its, the English nobility, didn’t speak English) the best way to create a feeling of national identity is find an ennemy and those Eurocrats whose respect for democracy is evidenced by their respect for France’s “No” to the Craptitution, need an ennemy in order to create the undemocratic european nation they want.

Jun 21, 2009 - 8:16 am 80. Alpha2Actual:

17. BB Blackpool:

I personally think Britain should not have gone to war in Iraq and should not now be in Afghan.

I would have thought that you guys would have jumped at the chance to even the score in Afgan which , if I’m not mistaken, is currently 0-4.

I’m also curious as to why the US got involved in the Serbia-Bosnia mess in 1995. Call me old fashioned but I fail to see how Bosnia can be considered within America’s Geopolitical Sphere of Influence. Was it because the European contingent of NATO is essentially impotent? The UN and EU dithered around for 3 years while thousands of innocents are massacred and the Isolationist US, once again, is called upon to do the heavy lifting.
Old Europe is a bad joke.

Jun 21, 2009 - 10:07 am 81. Marie Claude:

MiamaMan,

you’re absolutly right about our soul and the german soul, we are lightness, they are heavyness. Besides, Burke and many anglo-saxons “thinkers” (?) described us so, well the Parisians were mostly their cobayes. The Germans have no sense of humor except in cities like Hamburg and Berlin, which were are capitals, say, this is a kind of slang.
British have a great sense of humor but also the skill of gossiping, while we make cynical derision and look for life pleasures.

Jun 21, 2009 - 11:11 am 82. Marie Claude:

you have seen Europeans, OK, but the French ? in books, in moovies ?

the rest is your typical rant with no objective ground except that you are very sided view, and that you only acredite what fit your opinion

now about your remnent allegations, re-read the quotations that I have made above.

And I wouldn’t say that you’re attempting to make humor but to tease.

The funny thing, what you’re repproaching to us, half of our population would also repproach the excatly same things to you, and that that makes the Russians laughing ; they say that we are quarreling but that we can’t get along without each others, we are your conscienceness mirror and you’re ours !

now about focusing on a virtual enemy, this is also what I read from your theoricians, and some fellows from the previous administration, a quateron of enlightened advisors, cogitated the Plame conspiracies and tutti quanti .

Jun 21, 2009 - 11:27 am 83. MiamaMan:

Marie Claude:

Why, as a French and a woman, you did not comment on “But really, France’s hero is La Pucelle, Jeanne D’Arc, she had the divine afflatus. This is the high mark of the French race.”?

She is the greatest French ever to have lived, in my humble opinion. Notice the “afflatus”, a term coined by Cicero.

Jun 21, 2009 - 1:30 pm 84. Marie Claude:

becuz she is a anglo-saxon heroin

she was apparented to the royal families of France and England, her brother was Charles le VII, she had an education as for such filiation, thus she knew perfectly how to ride on horse, she knew the main military personalities, it’s becuz the Church and the royalties of France need the halo of a “divine intervention” for boosting the bellicous spirit of the men (cuz ze English were assimilated after a few decades, but the royal families quarrels weren’t exteinguished),and to impress the short-minded English, that they invented the myth of “la pucelle”, out of what they made some fat, and still do with tourism, aniversaries…

thus you term doesn’t add a sense for us only for the academic parrots

Jun 21, 2009 - 3:30 pm 85. Marie Claude:

JFM as you seem to know a bit of the “fighters”, have heard of this one ,
http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_clostermann.php

I read “Le grand cirque” when I was a young teen, and my dream reversed from cow-boy to “pilote de guerre”

Jun 21, 2009 - 6:14 pm 86. MiamaMan:

84. Marie Claude:

Gees, Mam, I thought that I was acquainted with most crazy conspiracy theories out there, but you have just left me hanging dry.

Not a single thing you say corresponds to historical fact. Nor being French qualifies you for so blatant a distortion of history.

S’il vous plaît la boisson Kool-Aid. Vous êtes le perroquet, honte sur vous!

Jun 21, 2009 - 6:59 pm 87. Grace O'Malley:

Actually JFM Babeouf was part of the Conspiracy of Equals, which was after the terror and after Robespierre became a victim of the terror he created.
Secondly red as a communist color comes from the red hats the Sans-culottes of the French Revolution wore. They were the working class radicals who drove the class warfare of the French Revolution. They were the violent mobs that Robespierre was playing to during the terror. You know lop off the aristocrats heads and be a hero to the radical working class. It’s the same formula used by Lenin, Mao, Castro, and Pol Pot to name a few of the better known mass murderers.
Facts are such annoying inconveniences.

Jun 21, 2009 - 7:08 pm 88. Grace O'Malley:

Actually JFM Babeouf was part of the Conspiracy of Equals, which was after the terror and after Robespierre became a victim of the terror he created. Fairly difficult for Robespierre to then be the agent of Babeoufs demise wouldn’t you think?
Secondly red as a communist color comes from the red hats the Sans-culottes of the French Revolution wore. They were the working class radicals who drove the class warfare of the French Revolution. They were the violent mobs that Robespierre was playing to during the terror. You know lop off the aristocrats heads and be a hero to the radical working class. It’s the same formula used by Lenin, Mao, Castro, and Pol Pot to name a few of the better known mass murderers.
Facts are such annoying inconveniences.

Jun 21, 2009 - 7:17 pm 89. JFM:

you have seen Europeans, OK, but the French ? in books, in moovies ?

In their natural habitat. in other countries, in blogs, in their press and tehre is also… you to confirm my thesis.

Jun 21, 2009 - 11:33 pm 90. Marie Claude:

and tehre is also… you to confirm my thesis

LMAO, I’m just a contradictor, I don’t care of people nationality, only if they are genuinely fair and interesting

Jun 22, 2009 - 6:43 am 91. Marie Claude:

Miamaman, between your obsessions about french sex-appeal and your bad faith stands the reality !

about Jeanne D’Arc there were investigations made by experts of Middle-age historians, and a book was edited by journalists last year, that pointed on the incoherences of the trial, that corroborate the fact that she couldn’t be that ignorant sheepherd who heard voices, but a person of the establishment, and a whore was burnt in place of her, that she finished her life as a married woman in the east of France

Jun 22, 2009 - 6:50 am 92. Braden:

All of these arguments and discussions are great, but ya’ll are still missing the whole point of remebering D-Day.

Being a soldier myself and losing friends and family b/c of war, i guess its easy for me to understand the great sacrifice that was made on June 6, 1944 and still today for that matter.

The whole point of remembering D-Day is to be honored and thankful for the lives sacrificed that day. I dont care if you think we wouldve won the war had we failed that day or if you think us americans ar stupid or if you dont believe in the war now. We all need to realize and be thankful for the sacrifice’s made that day. enough said.

Jul 12, 2009 - 10:50 am 93. Nom d'un chien:

”
JFM:
Yes, Europenas have forgotten about Hitler, Nazis and everything else. Now they have a common ennemy: America
”

You are wrong, we didn’t forget Hitler, and America is not our ennemy. Lately, G. W. Bush has started useless war, killing thousands and increasing terrorism, most European didn’t like that, but in general we like America. Don’t be paranoid.

Jul 29, 2009 - 6:26 am 94. kunal:

europeans has a common problem.they lack gratitude.americans sacrificed thousands of soldier in ww2,trying to save innocents europeans.today europeans dont want to remember hitlar ,nazis.they have forgotten everything.europe is a real pandora box,released fascism,rascism,communism,around the world.

Aug 22, 2009 - 11:09 am 95. dominic:

No wonder no one likes Americans. You people have a huge superiority complex, which is not justified. The attitudes displayed on this website give no reason to admire your nation ( we used to )

Nov 3, 2009 - 10:00 am 96. dominic:

Kunal, you appear to be barely literate. You can barely spell. The USA entered WW2 when it suited USA to support a war which would cause the demise of the British Empire. As you know this debt lasted till the 21st century. The USA entered WW2 only for financial reasons.

Nov 3, 2009 - 10:44 am

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