Pajamas Media

76 Comments

1. robotech master:

I’d say from this article the embargo is working great… yeah in the short term it grants hamas more power… but they can only hold the power if the embargo is lifted and massive aid flows in. If the embargo is kept up they will break but this is only the halfway point.

Israel needs to do better PR or more to the point stop hamas PR. They need to get air strikes to hit any form of comms most of all internet and TV/radio. Then should cutting off phone lines. If israel can shut down hamas propaganda then the population will wake up to the wak that hamas is the reason for the problem not israel… but as long as the propaganda is still flowing then the timetable for the embargo to work becomes much much longer.

Also it would benefit israel if they started black ops to run black market food and other things into gaza… they can effectively fight hamas where it will really hurt them… their wallet. If they run the goods and don’t pay the “tax they can effective remove hamas’s only power over the ppl… money. This will also hurt other countries such as iran and egypt since it cycles money away from them.

In the end a “strong” hamas is really weaker. Hamas’s strength is the fact they tend not to fight out in the open. Hamas manning up and trying to attack israel is the prefect thing for israel because then they can kill them amass in a short time frame. No matter how you look at it hamas can only hit a point in power then its down hill from there. Either they get stupid and try to attack israel or they become so top heavy the infighting gets them either way its a win for israel… more so if they can leech millions in funding from hamas and other terrorist groups in the process. Really the only way to fight terrorists groups like hamas is to go after the money. Once thats gone they fade away… or go out with a bang.

Dec 26, 2008 - 12:34 am 2. whiskey:

Iran’s nuclear status, which is a fait accompli, either this year or next, makes making an example of someone an urgent matter for Israel.

At this point, the Israelis ought to offer a “deal” to Hamas. Stop all rocket attacks, immediately, or they will kill everyone in Gaza. When Hamas predictably increases the rocket attacks, respond with nuclear weapons. Wipe out Gaza and the Gazans.

While this is brutal medicine. Israel cannot and must not be concerned with “nice to have” things like public opinion, world condemnation, or other unimportant matters behind the survival of it’s people. Iran is insane enough to openly talk of taking hostage any diplomat Obama might send. Presumably including himself should he meet Ahmadinejad face to face.

Iran WILL get nukes. It IS committed to nuking Israel, which is a small nation, out of existence.

Only by frightening the Iranians out of their minds with the prospect of Israeli retaliation can this attack be avoided. Therefore, brutal and simple logic means SOMEONE must be made an example of. To show just what Israeli nuclear retaliation would be (and demonstrate in the meantime Israeli civil defense and the ability to get people into shelters).

It’s up to this: are Israelis willing to do anything to survive? Including killing about a million Gazans who while lacking the immediate weaponry to kill them would indeed cheerfully murder every Israeli man, woman, and child they could? Or will they engage in fantasies of “world opinion” and “soft power” and the dubious protection of Barack Hussein Obama, who if not a stealth Muslim is certainly far too sympathetic to Jihad and Islam and Muslims.

Yes this is brutal. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and the longer confrontation with evil is put off the costlier the price of sheer survival becomes.

Israelis need to decide if they wish to live or die. The choice is as simple as that. If they wish to live they will have to as Jews in a world determined to wipe them out of existence (most of the UN’s members including all of Europe would celebrate the wiping out Jews) decide to fight. Survival will not come cheap or easy.

Qassam rockets are not the main threat, nor is the issue of Sderot the question. The question and threat is that of Iranian ICBMs loaded with nukes bearing down on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Examples must be made, and Israel’s ability and will to kill millions in a brutal fight for survival established without question, if Israelis wish to survive. Otherwise Iran will wipe them out to achieve their goal of establishing another Persian Empire stretching from India to Egypt.

Dec 26, 2008 - 2:00 am 3. Eric R.:

whiskey:

I agree with you that the Palis in Gaza are too sick, too depraved, too far gone, too filled with hate, too paranoid, and too loving of genocide to ever be defeated by anything other than being bombed into submission, probably until none are left. A Pali would rather kill a Jew than stay alive. They are nothing more than vile, psychotic hate machines with a human body.

That’s how the world had to defeat the Aryan Nazis of 60+ years ago. That is how the IslamoNazis of today — even more fanatic in their desire to exterminate the Jews — must be beaten today.

I believe that Israel must strike now — if she does so once Iran gets the bomb, this will escalate not only into a Second Shoah, but Israel’s Samson Option will rapidly result in at minimum, a regional nuclear war, and possibly, it expanding into a global one that ends all civilization.

Dec 26, 2008 - 4:12 am 4. Mo-ha-med:

Whiskey: “When Hamas predictably increases the rocket attacks, respond with nuclear weapons. Wipe out Gaza and the Gazans.”
Whiskey, inciting for genocide is a federal offense. You should in jail right now, you rat.

Dec 26, 2008 - 4:18 am 5. Eric R.:

Israel had better get armed agents into Europe to protect Jews, for the Nazi-ish coverage by the continent’s Jew-hating media will inflame the populace — and not just the Muslims — into wide scale pogroms and massacres.

And these massacres will probably even be abetted by many of the governments — especially in rabidly Nazi nations like Spain, Sweden, Norway, Greece and Austria.

Dec 26, 2008 - 4:24 am 6. Eric R.:

Hey Mohamed, what are you going to do, report him to the Jew-haters at the UN? Ooh, I bet he’s scared!

Dec 26, 2008 - 5:13 am 7. Abe Bird:

The solution is not by “frightening the Iranians”
Because they are not frightened, for now, from the western allegedly put on them “pressure”. They are determined to build a nuclear large infrastructure capability and initiate large crisis atmosphere in order to provoke deadly attack on Israel. Extremism, totalitarianism and nuke ability shouldn’t exist under the same umbrella what so ever in any condition.
The real solution is to pressure Iran to cut off hers nuclear project until the point of irreversibility. The, I hope that the US will attack by air the main and essential nuclear sites (It’s about 7 “must” sites and about 8 more “necessary” to be attacked sites). If not the US , so will Israel do.

http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/25/israel-gaza-invasion-a-go/

Dec 26, 2008 - 5:37 am 8. trangbang68:

Mo, While I don’t agree with nuking all of Gaza; all the inciting being done is on the part of the
Hitlers in Headscarves. If Hamas and Hezbollah weren’t such virulent mad dogs no one would suggest annihilating them. But they are and so the sword of Damocles of their own making hangs over their head.

Dec 26, 2008 - 5:59 am 9. kabud:

Russia selling surface-to-air missiles to Libya, Syria: report

2 hrs 14 mins ago

MOSCOW (AFP) – Russia has begun to fulfil a 250-million-dollar contract to deliver surface-to-air missiles to seven countries including Libya, Syria and Venezuela, the Vedomosti business daily reported Friday.

Russia will also deliver the S-125 Pechora-2M missile batteries to Egypt, Myanmar, Vietnam and Turkmenistan under the contract, the newspaper said, citing a source in the state-owned Russian Technologies corporation.

Contacted by AFP, a spokeswoman for the company declined to comment. Russian Technologies includes arms exporter Rosoboronexport among its holdings. The paper did not say which parties had signed the contract.

The Pechora-2M — known as the SA-3A Goa in NATO parlance — is an upgraded version of a surface-to-air missile originally developed in the 1960s that was widely shared with the Soviet Union’s allies around the world.

Under the contract, 200 missiles are to be delivered including 70 for Egypt, an unnamed manager at a Russian defence-industry factory told Vedomosti. He added that most would be built at the Obukhov factory in Saint Petersburg.

“It is a simple but effective system, like the Kalashnikov assault rifle,” he said of the Pechora.

Dec 26, 2008 - 6:11 am 10. Gary Ogletree:

I would like to see Israel elect a serious government before they risk the lives of their soldiers again. Worrying about bad press is a sign of idiocy. They could hand over all of Jerusalem and still get bad press.

Dec 26, 2008 - 6:26 am 11. SAF:

The 6 month cease fire was simply a way for Hamas to restock and improve their weapons cache. The escalating violence is one part of the enemies of the US planned inauguration of Obama festivities.

Israel will be goaded into a conflict with Iran and Syria who have armed their territories to the teeth on the northern Israeli border. Simultaneous to all of that their will be major violence in Iraq and Afghanistan. I fear in addition their will be a major terrorist act in DC on inauguration day.

The effects will be four fold:

1. Destruction of some piece of the oil production/shipping system in the middle east thereby raising the price of oil to the level required by the Russians to remain solvent

2. Further financial pressure will be put on the west as oil prices sky rocket and stock markets around the world tank.

3. Israel will be bloodied like never before.

4. Obama will be tested and stressed.

The west has chosen a weak hand by not confronting these dangers in a unified and forceful way. We will pay a price.

Dec 26, 2008 - 6:30 am 12. Hoob:

The spin of Al Jazeera has been exposed. They started to remove from their magazine website all comments that do not agree with their spin agenda. On the article “Christmas in Gaza” they wrote that this year Gazans will not be celebrating Christmas, there are no decorations, no Christmas trees, no Christmas lights. Al Jazeera removed all the comments including mine exposing their spin when questioned since when Muslim cerebrate Christmas? Here is for the “beacon of free speech in the Muslim world” as journalists in Britain like to describe Al Jazeera and award their journalists for an “outstanding work”. Despicable!

Dec 26, 2008 - 6:42 am 13. Hoob:

The spin of Al Jazeera has been exposed. They started to remove from their magazine website all comments that do not agree with their spin agenda. In the article “Christmas in Gaza” on 12.25.08 they wrote that this year Gazans will not be celebrating Christmas, there are no decorations, no Christmas trees, no Christmas lights. Al Jazeera removed all the comments including mine exposing their spin when questioned since when Muslim cerebrate Christmas? Here is for the “beacon of free speech in the Muslim world” as journalists in Britain like to describe Al Jazeera and award their journalists for an “outstanding work”. Despicable! Merry Christmas by the way.

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:12 am 14. RJ:

Israelis only need to ask themselves this:

“When is enough, enough?”

If and when this point is reached a response will be given that should put an end to Hamas and its harrassment tactics.

Evil is what it is and does what it does.

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:19 am 15. SAF:

Gary Ogletree:

Absolutely agree.

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:35 am 16. Eric R.:

Mr. Ogletree.

You are right in that Israel should not worry about the media — after all, they are mostly European Jew-haters and Islamonazis, (even at Communist News Network) who lament that Hitler did not finish the job, and where Goebbels would feel right at home.

Let’s face it — the international news media, especially the BBC and CNN, are nothing more than Der Stuermer on steroids.

And Israel needs to treat them as the terrorists they are.

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:27 am 17. Amanda:

Hey whiskey:
There would be Nuclear fallout which would affect Israel too: Duh

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:39 am 18. Cybergeezer:

This is a glaring example of the results from trying to deal with Islamic nations on a peaceful basis. As they have been saying for centuries; It’s us or them. As they demonstrate, they are a global cancer,

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:54 am 19. Eric R.:

Amanda,

Since the towns nearest Israel would likely already be evacuated due to the Islamonazi rockets, a tactical nuke in the 5-10 kiloton range could wipe out most of Gaza while causing minimal damage to Israeli towns.

It would also depend on wind direction — with a little luck, the fallout would blow toward Egypt.

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:58 am 20. Amanda:

Eric R: Israeli has a hard won peace treaty with Egypt,would you throw that away?
Maybe you could just round them all up and Gas them

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:53 am 21. fred:

Nuking preemptively is a really bad idea. However, significant retaliation against what are obviously illegal combatants waging war isn’t unjustified. Can you say “Arc Light Strike”? Either that or kick the entire population of Gaza into the Sinai Desert and let the Egyptians deal with them. The whole world hates the “Joos” anyway so they may as well go ahead and do something significant.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:25 am 22. Tonto (USA):

Now is the time. With Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq (and the US Navy cruising the Persian Gulf), Syria and Iran are marginalized. They wouldn’t dare and would get stomped if they did. Israel should wipe out Hamas while holding the north border, and, without pause, immediately charge into Lebanon and wipe out anything that gets in the way to the Syria border. Screw public opinion and muz threats…..that doesn’t stop attacks on Israelis. Fear of deadly reprisal does.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:31 am 23. Eric R.:

Amanda,

Israel’s survival is what counts, not what the Islamonazis of the Nile think of them.

Yet for all their hatred of Jews, Egypt won’t lift a finger to help the Palestinians. They don’t want Gaza – even though it was theirs prior to 1967; and what’s more, they’ve just thrown troops along the border to prevent the Palestinians from entering Egpyt when Israel attacks.

As far as you cheap shot, Jew-hating comment about gassing — it is your beloved Islamonazis who openly threaten to nuke, gas and contaminate the Jews to death.

Your beloved Islamonazis have declared this a battle to the death. These are THEIR terms of battle.

Fine. Let it be THEIR DEATHS.

One Holocaust against the Jews is enough.

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:18 am 24. David P:

Once upon a time, about a century ago, a vast desert regional empire, known only by its rulers, the Ottomans, was colonized by the west. Western colonial imperialists drove out the Ottomans, drew up boundaries and installed kings.

It became clear that distinctive and diverse groups lived in these colonies and preferred to determine their own destinies. In recognition of these simple, but essential needs the west organized a sliver of land, not even 1/10 of 1% of the entire region, to alleviate the concerns of the minority. However, the majority saw these desires of the minority population they call dhimmi as irrelevant and have violently opposed creating any sort of alternative living standard for them.

The majority has launched many wars against the minority population because control of %99.9999 of the Middle East isn’t enough. Hamas is another organizing tool used to rally pawns of the greater population to continue the push to dislodge the minority population from the region. The pursuit of peace, co-existence, freedom, are irrelevant and run counter to their goal of total destruction of the Zionist entity.

How can you expect Israel, the minority population not to defend herself against the promise of total annihilation?

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:27 am 25. WestGuard:

“Enough is enough” Israel should wipe out the Hamas disease. When they see 2,000 of these Hamas insects wearing their ugly costumes and marching in a parade, they should drop a MOAB on the colony of roaches and be done with it. “Enough is enough!”

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:29 am 26. Eric R.:

” How can you expect Israel, the minority population not to defend herself against the promise of total annihilation? ”

After 2000 years of stabbing, shooting, burning, and finally gassing Jews off the continent with little resistance from Jews who were completely outnumbered, the Europeans clearly believe that Jews have no right to defend ourselves.

When our enemies want us to die, they sincerely believe we should do so willingly.

What makes this sickness by the Europeans even more bizarre is that they are trying to help their Islamist allies exterminate a country with a large nuclear arsenal, that would use it is a last gasp.

Apparently, Europeans and Muslims are so deranged in their Jew-hatred that they do not care if hundreds of millions of their own people die to wipe out 13 million Jews. This genocide is more important to them than their own existence.

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:59 am 27. Amanda:

Wow, don´t get all upperty Eric R, on this thread
I don´t think there are any Muslims calling to ¨openly threaten to nuke, gas and contaminate the Jews to death¨. but that´s what You (read your last posts) and others like
whiskey: are calling for. A final solution to the ¨Gazan problem¨
I would hope that´s not what whiskey: teaches in High school

Dec 26, 2008 - 12:21 pm 28. David P:

Eric R., takes it even a step further….

Mutual dislike is a powerful & mobilizing bond among groups that would otherwise not associate with one another.

Europe and the Muslim world have blended not only physically over the past several decades but have merged ideologically. Muslims feel safe & comfortable in a region where just recently Jews have been violently purged from. Reciprocally Muslims make Europeans feel shameless about expressing their latent Jew hatred in a society that lawfully band the practice after the Holocaust.

Muslims have skillfully taught Europeans how to continue their legacy of Jew bashing by applying terms like holocaust and genocide to Israels defensive measures, and worse terms to those who support it.

The tiny Jewish state surrounded by enemies on all sides and fighting to survive since its inception, mistakenly asks permission of these same Europeans to defend themselves against the ongoing promise of destruction.

Israel’s last mistake will be to allow a nuclear Iran to flourish, the second to last mistake would be to rely on anyone else but ourselves to prevent it.

Dec 26, 2008 - 12:48 pm 29. Angry White Dude:

Amanda dear, have you listened to the words of the President of Iran over the past several years? I think his intentions are well known…and they’re not good ones!

How many rockets would fall in your town until you wanted to take out the enemy?

Angry White Dude

Dec 26, 2008 - 12:54 pm 30. Eric R.:

Amanda,

You really are a useful idiot of the Islamists. Years before anyone ever heard of Ahmedinejad, Ayatollah Rafsanjani explicitly called for the nuking of Israel, even though a nuclear retaliation would kill tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of Muslims.

They do not care if 300 million Muslims die to exterminate the Jews. To the Muslims, life is cheap.

Dec 26, 2008 - 1:16 pm 31. Amanda:

Angry White Dude:How many rockets would fall in your town until you wanted to take out the enemy?
let me guess… do you mean Gazans

Dec 26, 2008 - 1:22 pm 32. Amanda:

I think i will stop posting here, I just wanted to reply to the people who would kill an entire nation , children included, to advance their racist goals, most of which seem to be Chairborn Rangers at home in amerika thumping their chests and demanding what they are impotent to do themselves

Dec 26, 2008 - 1:42 pm 33. David P:

Amanda,Whisky

Why do ALL Muslim nations pressure the west to force Israel to open it’s Israel-Gaza borders, when all the Israeli’s want is separation?

Gaza shares a 10 mile border with their Arab brethren Egypt with whom there is no religious, blood, social, historical, modern or ancestral difference. Why don’t ALL Muslim nations band together and assist Egypt in absorbing their fellow Islamic brethren?

Why not force Egypt to open its border with Gaza instead of sealing it off, keeping Gazans hopelessly locked in, exploiting them as pawns in the shiftless Jihad against the Zionists?

Dec 26, 2008 - 2:02 pm 34. Eric R.:

Amanda,

We don’t need Jew-hating useful idiots like you. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

Dec 26, 2008 - 2:25 pm 35. fred:

Israel is bedeviled by the same problem we in the United States are hamstrung with: the younger generation is pretty well inured from being patriotic by their teachers and professors. Israel’s government has been Left-of-center after Netanyahu left office – even during Sharon’s tenure – and its people have lost their mettle. As have ours. If we have a problem in the United States of apostate Jews who hate the West and shill for socialism, it’s even worse in Israel.

The Muslims have grown more truculent while we have grown more pacifistic.

Dec 26, 2008 - 5:21 pm 36. thegre8_1:

Would America tolerate Mexico shooting missiles into San Diego? I don’t understand Israel’s thinking they should respond with overwhelming force whatever weaponry is necessary.

Dec 26, 2008 - 5:25 pm 37. nicholas g:

why does anyone who condemns israeli policies get labelled a ‘jew hater’ or ‘nazi’.
israel is a apartide regime which is slowly ethnic cleansing the holylands of the original owners since the major ethnic cleansing operation in 1948, celebrated as the ‘war of independence’ which displaced nearly 900,000 palestinians.
and ever since israel birth they have continued the ethnic cleansing which turned the palestinians into freedom fighters. but thanks to a huge propoganda drive which the arabs are yet to match this resistance has been labelled terrorism and the real victims have be dehumanised and portrayed as aggressors.
i am appalled that the international community has all but forgotten the palestinian people.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:20 pm 38. Gary Rosen:

“I just wanted to reply to the people who would kill an entire nation , children included, to advance their racist goals,”

So tell it to Ahmedinejad.

“i am appalled that the international community has all but forgotten the palestinian people”

Like the UN har-de-har-har?

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:39 am 39. Hoob Waahed:

The right to worship and practise religion ritual is a basic human right issue of our modern society; and it is a honourable cause to allow anyone to reach their full potential of their religious realisation.

The holy Qur’an is the centre of existence for majority of Muslims in the world, accordingly daily routines, laws and interaction with the people surrounding are mastered. A jihad is a novel cause to reach the higher self of education, religious practice and spreading the word of Allah. Spreading jihad can be both peaceful and more forceful as the holy Qur’an also calls to Kill and be Killed when spreading the word of god to infidels, thus Kill and be Killed is an Islamic Human and Religious Right when following the holy script. Death is an Islamic choice and as such a religious realisation.

Palestinians elected democratically Hamas, which with it’s religious founder the slain Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Yassin preach and glorify suicide bombings by becoming martyrs thus entering paradise. Islamic clerics teach this philosophy not only in Gaza, but as we have seen on TV, in Mosques, community centres all over the world and here Britain as well. We can see on TV young children in Gaza strapped with vest demo explosives put by their own parents at rallies against the West. Women, men and children when interviewed want to become martyrs; they show proudly on TV their ready vests. Death is their purpose of living.

Islamic clerics glorify entry to paradise by martyrdom, suicide bombing and advocating Kill and be Killed. Palestinians have been following meticulously this religious obligation. Palestinians voted in democratic elections their quest to Kill and be Killed; Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis retaliate and kill them. Palestinians kill and they are being killed and reaching heaven to harvest their promised 72 black-eyed virgins in realisation of the holy script of the Qur’an; Israelis are allowing Palestinians to fulfil this democratic choice. Israelis are gratifying a basic Palestinian Religious Right to Kill and be Killed and as such are enabling them to reach their humanitarian and Islamic religious quest – realisation of the sacred script of the holy Qur’an.

Dec 27, 2008 - 4:52 am 40. Judy, NYC:

ISRAEL DID IT THIS MORNING!!!!!!!
BOMBED THE SH*T OUT OF THEM.
AND THEY WON’T STOP UNTIL THESE GUYS ARE DEAD IN THEIR RAT HOLES WHERE THEY HIDE.

Now, i am praying for Bibi to be elected. he’ll take care of any unfinished business. (btw, when i pray, i pray to eleanor roosevelt)

Dec 27, 2008 - 5:56 am 41. steveaz:

“Right of Migration,” “Global Warming,” and the “Geneva Conventions” are the global Left’s weapons of choice for dismantling and disempowering Anglo-Saxon Capitalist cultures.

This list writes itself: simply choose the potent memetic thrusts, commonly used by the Left’s media organizations, that, contradictorially, are never applied to the Left’s patrons, and jot them down.

This is where Isreal comes on stage. The Palestinian militants’ “right of return” is the same thing as the UN’s proposed “Right of Migration.” Isreal plays the proxy-colony in this game. Both agendas look to Zimbabwe’s reallocation of its farmland to “more deserving” (but less adept) urban black “farmers” for precedent. And, together, these three progressive demands directly threaten successful, implanted, Western-style economies around the world.

Which is another commonality shared by all the ‘movements’ on my list. All three attack success, accountability, and the march of Western, Helenic progress, while they enable poverty-stricken regions’ feeble autocracies to grind on for another decade or two.

Dec 27, 2008 - 6:26 am 42. Barry 0351:

plow them under IDF/IAF.

Dec 27, 2008 - 7:45 am 43. Angry White Dude:

Amanda, poor politically correct Amanda, anyone who sends rockets into my town is the enemy. If it is people of Gaza, Mexico, or Houston, they would be my enemy.

Angry White Dude

Dec 27, 2008 - 8:46 am 44. MarkFradl:

I don’t read Pajamas Media much, but the comments here speak volumes about the type of people who do. Openly supporting genocide; calling your enemies rats, a global cancer, maniacs, Hitlers, Nazis; accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being anti-semetic (or to use your terms “jew-haters”) How ironic, so many people here blanket entire groups with hatred and wish them all dead, but when someone dares to criticize SPECIFIC actions of the Israeli GOVERNMENT you say they are jew-haters. I have news for you, people like Amanda (earlier commenter who dared to inject reason into this discussion) and myself are not the ones advocating blind hatred against an entire group of people. You are.

1. Iran, if and when it gets nuclear weapons, is not going to attack Israel. For all their bluster, their foreign policy has always been quite rational from the standpoint of their own interests. Let’s remember that their assistance was very crucial in the early months of our invasion of Afghanistan. Of course we rewarded that assistance by calling them evil and making it clear we planned to attack them, which was a huge incentive for them to get protective nuclear weapons (and of course we overthrew the government in the 1950s, and assisted Iraq’s horrific invasion in the 1980s, so you can see how they might be a little worried about us now)

2. Ahmadinejad never said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the map – what he said was that what he viewed as the “occupation regime over Jerusalem” should “vanish from the page of time,” and in context this was not a call to attack but a spiritual wish that everyone in Israel and the occupied territories be allowed to decide their future, and that when that happens the current Israeli “regime” would vanish (as the Jewish votes would be outnumbered by Palestinian votes – I’m assuming he’s factoring in votes from Palestinians who would be allowed to return) You can of course disagree with his position, but it is a far cry from him saying he wants to nuke Israel. Sure, most would agree he’s a horrible leader and the world will be happy when he’s replaced, but there’s a huge gap between “leader we don’t like” and “homicidal maniac who is bent of nuking his enemies and must be stopped at all costs”

3. Apartheid is terrorism. Cutting off food and medicine (collective punishment) is terrorism. Blockading a nation is terrorism. Invasion is terrorism. Occupation is terrorism. Assassination is terrorism. Dropping cluster bombs on civilian areas (over 1 million dropped in the brief Lebanon war last year, and those will continue to maim men, women and children for the next 20 years.) All these actions merely strengthen the hand of the extremists in the Occupied Territories. When a people have a boot on their throat, they are going to support the most extremist militants who fight back. No, it’s not in their enlightened self-interest to support the extremists, but it’s hard for them to look deeply at political realities when – again – there is a boot on their throat.

4. There are plenty of extremists in Israel (a small but effective minority) who do everything they can to encourage and support extremists among the Palestinians – and undermine the moderates – because their biggest fear is a moderate Palestinian regime they would be forced to negotiate with. It’s in their interest to have an easily demonized enemy instead.

5. This ridiculous analogy “wouldn’t America attack if Mexico was lobbing missiles into San Diego” is childishly simple-minded. You would need to add in about 40 years of alternate history involving America invading Mexico, seizing all the best land, taking the water rights – Three million West Bank Palestinians use only 250 million cubic meters per year (83 cubic meters per person) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 1,954 million cubic meters (333 cubic meters per person) – bombing them to go after “terrorists”, tightly restricting food and medicine shipments… oh, and don’t forget to scatter illegal “settlements” all over Mexico too.

6. If muslims are all bloodthirsty jew-haters then explain why 99.999% of muslims live in peace alongside Jewish neighbors. Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, for God sakes. Yes, Jewish people are victims of discrimination, prejudice, and violence all over the world, but those are actions of the small, small minority. Yes, it’s horrible to hear about Jewish centers being attacked in different parts of the world, but let’s remember that there ARE Jewish centers all over the world – if hatred of Jews was endemic to Islam that wouldn’t be the case. There are over 1 billion muslims in the world and less than 20 millions Jewish people (that’s something around 72-to-1) – if they were all evil, blood-thirsty anti-semites, Jewish people would be quite screwed. This is not to minimize that intolerable amount of prejudice and hatred that Jewish people face, but it needs to be kept in perspective amid all this talk here of “world vs. Jews.”

7. I love all the people here who think that “international public opinion” is the only thing keeping Israel from massacring everyone in Gaza, Lebanon, or anywhere else that displeases you. I’ve got news for you, there are PLENTY of Israeli Jews who would rebel and bring down that government if it ever went on the blood thirsty rampage you suggest. You see they – unlike you – have morality. And they – unlike you – are able to see that the situation is far more complex than the good/evil dichotomy you blind yourselves with.

Dec 27, 2008 - 9:37 am 45. James Dunaway:

Israel turned Gaza over to the Palestinian’s in hopes of ending the suicide bombings and rocket attacks. It was not all that long ago Arafat and the Palestinian’s were offered Statehood for Palestine but it was rejected because they wanted half of Jerusalem. Every other demand of the Palestinians was met.

As history shows us the Palestinians are not interested in Statehood or peace. Their objective is to wipe the Israelis from the face of the planet in the name of Allah. Ahmadinejad the President of Iran has publicly exposed this same official policy; not gonna happen!

The Palestinian’s elected Hamas as their government, great the people have spoken. Hamas the Palestinian state is sending rockets and suicide bombers to kill Israeli citizens.

Wake up this is no longer terrorism; this is war. The Palestinian’s are not victims, they are cowards hiding their faces when shown on television. Killing in the name of Allah and Muslim Radical Fundamentalism is obscene and a crime against humanity. What the @#!&* gives Muslims the right to kill people just because they do not believe in Allah.

Would the United States government or it’s citizen’s accept incoming rockets/mortars or suicide bombers coming from Mexico or Canada? I think you can answer this question and what our response would be.

My reply to the respondents “shaddoun” and “ma_almasri”; if your in the United States get the @#$!* out. Your the group who is racist and refuses to assimilate to America but in turn reaps all the benefits of our society while spitting in our faces.

Hammas the ELECTED Palestinian government is 100% responsible for the killing of innocent Israeli’s and that of their own people. Why do you think Hamas put their so called “security centers in densely populated areas?” So the media will have their story and they can advance their cause through their twisted portrayal of themselves as victims.

I may be a little simplistic in my thinking but when pick a fight with someone and just because you get your ass kicked that does not make you the victim. The aggressor is the aggressor and nothing changes that fact.

My message to the Israeli government and the people of Israel; do not appease these cowards. Hit them hard and again ten fold until they stop these unprovoked attacks. Eventually they will learn, but only through overwhelming force you can and must demoralize these radical Muslim fanatics.

If you need help call upon me, I will fight with you in your military for the State of Israel because your War is just and clear.

James
Houston Texas
United States Air Force Veteran

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:26 am 46. jhatilreog:

longlive israel
death to the arabs terorist
godbles amerika

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:30 am 47. MarkFradl:

James Dunaway – nice macho bluster, calling people “cowards”. There are plenty who could make the argument that an air force jet shooting missiles from miles away is more cowardly than defying tanks and guns with rocks.

And in what world does occupying a land not make Israel the aggressor? Even when they pulled out of Gaza they controlled the borders, the water supplies, the travel, etc. And it is an outright falsehood to say that the Palestinians were offered everything they wanted except Jerusalem (I assume you’re referring to the Taba talks) – they weren’t offered a viable, contiguous state but instead were offered a collection of non-contiguous cantons interspersed with Israeli settlements and zones under Israeli military control – thus, they would still be under the control of Israel, albeit somewhat indirectly.

And spare us the macho posturing of “call me, I’ll come fight!” If you want to fight then get your tail over there.

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:29 am 48. Anonymous:

MarkFradl:

Kind of illegal to be fighting for a Foreign power when your a US Citizen. Secondly not everyone in the Air Force flies a plane stupid ass. Ever heard of Air Force Combat Controllers or ALOS probably not because you probably never served a day in your life.

I wonder if you have ever left whatever pathetic town your from. As far as my own experiences I served on the ground with the 3rd Calvary US Army although I was indeed in the Air Force. Not like in the movies especially when you get shot at and hit at night, more worried about hitting your own men when your shooting back. Adrenaline is going so fast you want to puck.

Regardless if your smart ass had been serving with me the only word that comes to mind is “Frag”.

My response was not about you; it was my support for the Israeli people and not to debate American Foreign Policy with an obvious douche bag as yourself.

You want it, bring it, I’ll be happy to provide your with a complete address prick.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:27 pm 49. robotech master:

To MarkFradl:

Your revisionist history is fun…. but your so diluted and retarded along with a complete lack of any understanding of the real world means that even trying to debate your points in beyond stupid…

If one day you even attempt to educate yourself on history and then even remotely apply that education to real life I’d be happy to debate your then revised points…

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:53 pm 50. MarkFradl:

Robotech — is name calling a substitute for facts? By the way, when saying someone is retarded you might want to use proper language – “you’re” retarded, not “your” retarded. Also, the word you’re looking for is “deluded”, not diluted. Don’t get me wrong, I realize they’re most likely just typos and you’re probably a very intelligent person, but its always amusing when someone appears so uneducated while trying to call someone uneducated.

James, a personal threat! Well, that certainly proves me wrong about you being someone who loves macho posturing. And I never said you were a pilot, I was using it as an example of how ridiculous the term “coward” is – just another way to demonize an entire people. By your standards, anonymous pilots shooting missiles from miles away should be considered “cowards.” Or how about soldiers who sit in an air conditioned barracks in Las Vegas and remotely control drones that shoot missiles, are they “cowards?” I personally don’t think in terms of “cowardly” and “brave”, because I think they are empty, meaningless terms Just trying to understand your definitions, since you’re the one who wanted to accuse people of cowardice.

And my town is pathetic… I see, you love America, but only parts of it. Excellent. And if we served together you would try to kill me – another excellent example of your fine soldierly nobility.

And if you don’t want to hear responses to your comments, don’t read them. If you don’t want to know what people think of your opinions, don’t share them. You felt it was fine to tell two other respondents that they should leave the country, but I’m not allowed to respond to your comments? Interesting.

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:05 pm 51. Mary Madigan:

MarkFradl – typical revisionist/arab/chomskyesque point of view. You mention that Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, yet you fail to mention the many thousands of Jews who have been forced to emigrate by Arab/Muslim apartheid laws, which discriminate against Jews and non-Muslims. As you said, apartheid is terrorism.

Arab nationalists, Muslim and Islamists contribute billions of dollars to paramilitary groups like Hamas and Hezbollah because they support the war these paramilitary groups are waging againt Israel. If people are funding a war against a country, then they are ‘enemies’ of that country.

In any case, nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria have been trying to destroy Israel for years. These nations have armies that are weak beyond our abilty to imagine, so the only weapons thay have are terrorism, propaganda and anti-American leftist spokesmen for the Palestinian cause. These weapons (yourself included) will only be effective as long as Israel decides to believe that the enemy of their enemy can be their friend.

For years, Israel has been trying to negotiate with the supposedly “moderate” Abbas and the supposedly moderate Saudis in the hopes that these enemies of Hamas and Iran (respectively) will offer a working peace. When Israel realizes that Abbas and Saudi Arabia are just as dangerous as Hamas and Iran, when Israel realizes that these enemies have been working together for years and that they give their war against Israel a higher priority than their war against each other, then they will abandon this failed strategy and the Arab/Islamist alliance will lose. Hopefully, this attack is a sign that they are coming to this realization.

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:54 pm 52. MarkFradl:

Mary Madigan:

Thank you for the somewhat civil and thoughtful response (even if I was called a “weapon” against Israel) –

I did acknowledge the intolerable level of discrimination that Jewish people face – I was talking about the fact there are 25,000 Jews in Iran not as an example of how perfect and free from discrimination they are, but as proof that Muslims are not blood-thirsty killers who will stop at nothing until all Jews are dead (an assertion made more than a few times by commenters here) And I certainly am no apologist for the Iranian regime, I just argue that there needs to be perspective.

I don’t want Iran to have nukes, but then again I didn’t want Israel to have them and I hope we reach a point where the US and Russia no longer have them. But if the cost of preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons is all-out war, it’s not worth it. No simple, quick airstrike will hit all the needed sites (first would have to be all air defense), by all accounts it would have to be a massive and sustained campaign. And there is a very straong argument being made by our own intelligence agencies that Iran is not even actively pursuing nukes and hasn’t for 5 years. (remember the report from earlier this year).

It’s all a moot point anyway, since the US controls the airspace access into Iran (they have to go through Iraq) they’d need our permission. I wouldn’t hold your breath for that after Jan. 20. Diplomacy is the way to go, it has a much better track record than force. I know that notion will be scoffed at by all the red-meat types here, but it’s true. Again, “evil” Iran helped us plenty in Afghanistan. When we make it beneficial for them, chances are good that they’ll cooperate. At the very least, chances are better with that approach then with an attack. They had a much more moderate government early in the Bush administration, and if that would have been encouraged – instead of demonized – then that could have been a wedge for change. Instead Bush – much to the delight of the Right – demonized Iran and threatened war. And what happened? Out with the moderates (whose approach bore no fruit) and in with Ahmadinejad.

And I’m no fan of Arab governments, which is why we “chomskyesque” types have opposed our governments long, long record of coddling and supporting those governments. But the reason they support Hamas and Hezbollah is because it’s in their interest to do so. When we make it in their interest not to do so, it will cease.

A two-state solution isn’t a cure-all, and there will always be some Palestinians and Arabs who will oppose Israel (just as there will always be those Israelis and Jews who will always believe Israel should have ALL their “historic” lands) But Israel has tried 40 years of war – has it helped? Does it have less enemies now than it used to?

What is your solution? Total war against Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria? Where do you believe Israel goes from here? Do you think it’s sustainable to have Occupied Territories for another 40, 60, 80 years?

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:45 pm 53. sad:

“which is slowly ethnic cleansing the holylands of the original owners since the major ethnic cleansing operation in 1948″

their original owners?! The majority of Palestinians emigrated to the region because the early Zionists had come to what is now Israel and were rebuilding the land, and they came to partake of the economic benefits. During wwII britain encouraged more palestinians to come and had strict limits on the number of Jews they let in – leading ot their perishing in nazi europe – b/c the brits had not yet decided whether they wanted a jewish state. The palestinian presence is a direct result of british emigration policy in this time.
You may have noticed that there was no such thing as a palestinian people before 48. The Palestinians do not speak a distinct language, they do not have a distinct culture other than the terrorist culture that developed over the decades since israel’s existence, they do not have distinct foods – and they did not have a land or any identity as a nation – because they were just arabs who landed up the region, the majority coming for the economic development the jews introduced. There was no palestinian national movement under the ottamans, and not much of one under the brits either. They could live under the Turks, you see, but they could not live under the evil Jews. To be fair, the majority of the population would probably have accepted israel’s presence, but their leadership and their fellow arabs encouraged them to flee and told them they’d win a war against israel. They lost the war, the lost in 67, they lost in 73. These wars were NOT the result of an indigenous population rising up against the newcomers, but rather a majority of the arab population in palestine had moved there to benefit from the econmy the jews created. But under whose rule they simply cannot live, since it is not as beneficent as the ottoman rule.

Incidentally, israeli arabs are doing better on just about every measure you can think of – longevity, education levels, infant mortality, etc etc – than muslims in enlightened europe are currently doing. Imagine if they’d all just agreed to accept israel how well they’d be doing.

Oh and by the way. You know about Palestinians claim to Jersulaem? When the Muslims controlled the region, Jerusalem was a backwater. Their political and cultural center was in RAmallah. Jerusalem was not a cultureal center, not a political center, just a backwater with a mosque. Jerusalem is only of any significance in Islam because Islam recognizes the prior Judeo-Xian claim to Jm. They never wanted Jersualem as a capital or center. But you know what happened They discovered that Jm is very important to the Jews. Now they cannot have a state without it. Who cares that when muslims actually had control over the area, jm was a backwater? Suddently Jm is just as important to Muslims as it is to Jews and Xians.

Dec 27, 2008 - 5:42 pm 54. Cybergeezer:

So, following the Islamic thinking, when does the Koran promise to destroy itself for the good of its people and the assurance of its existence?

Dec 27, 2008 - 6:03 pm 55. blogengeezer:

EPICENTER.. by Joel C Rosenberg

Dec 27, 2008 - 6:36 pm 56. Cybergeezer:

I’d be glad to read the book,
I bought my crystal ball from Acme Crystal & Quartz; Where does Mr. Rosenbergs crystal ball come from?

Dec 27, 2008 - 7:34 pm 57. Mary Madigan:

A two-state solution isn’t a cure-all, and there will always be some Palestinians and Arabs who will oppose Israel (just as there will always be those Israelis and Jews who will always believe Israel should have ALL their “historic” lands) But Israel has tried 40 years of war – has it helped? Does it have less enemies now than it used to?

Israel hasn’t tried 40 years of war, they’ve tried 40 years of pointless peace talks, 40 years of Arab war against them and 40 years caring too much about the opinions of the ‘international community.’

The Arabs have been using every resource and every bit of their meager strength to wage war against Israel and all they have to show for it is a profitable propaganda machine, mobster governments and failed economies. All Israel has to show for their restraint and their pursuit of peace is a bad neighborhood filled with propagandists, mobsters and power-hungry zealots.

If Israel had decided to properly fight back against their enemies, the war would have been over decades ago, and Israel would have fewer motivated enemies now.

What is your solution? Total war against Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria?

As ‘red meat’ commenters like Mark Steyn said, the strength of the Arab armies combined make Belgium look butch. Total war against a weak and hopeless enemy would be relatively quick, and wouldn’t require nuclear weapons at all. But the war against nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Islamist Somalia and other terrorist nations is bigger than Israel vs. the Palestinians. It’s India vs. Pakistan, its the Taliban/Pakistan vs. Afghanistan, it’s Iran/Hezbollah vs. Lebanon, it’s Thailand vs. ’separatist militants’ funded by Saudi Arabia, trained by Libya, it’s Europe vs. Hizb-ut-Tahrir and the Muslim brotherhood. These wars follow the same pattern as Israel vs. the Palestinians – an established state is threatened by a weak, petrodollar-funded Islamist militia that has few real weapons, no real offensive capability and few soldiers who can shoot straight. The established state ignores the fact that it could easily wipe out the Islamist threat using decent intelligence work and the destruction of enemy infrastructure. It tries diplomacy and dumb alliances with ‘moderate’ Islamists and enemies-of-enemies. This prolongs conflicts that should have been finished years ago. We need to stop prolonging these conflicts.

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:26 pm 58. Gary Rosen:

“Diplomacy is the way to go, it has a much better track record than force.”

Yeah, it worked great with Hitler. Oh, I know, that’s just one outlier oddball exception, irrelevant to 20th century history.

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:15 pm 59. chuck,:

I throw this out as a possibility only. Iran might find Israel more useful alive than dead for the reason that its existence gives a reason for a grand Islamic alliance, which Iran as the largest power would lead. So Israel’s future is not extinction–at least not for a while–but rather to be the mouse in an on-going cat & mouse game. For the same reason, Iran wants nukes: Not to use them but for invulnerability while it absorbs bit by bit the mid east.

Dec 28, 2008 - 6:24 am 60. Lynn:

This new war is all Iran’s making. Today the main mad mullah Khameini ORDERED ALL Muslims to defend Gaza. Ordered?

Dec 28, 2008 - 7:59 am 61. MarkFradl:

Chuck: When has Iran ever, in it’s 2500 year history, invaded another country? What indications have you had that they want to “absorb” the Middle East? Yes, the opressive religious-tyrants at the top would love to see Shiite governments throughout the Middle East (which obviously would never happen) but when have they ever shown inclination or intention to invade other countries? Shites can’t “absorb” Sunnis, especially when they are the distinct minority. And by all accounts even the Shiite areas of Iraq have no desire to “join” Iran, just to be allied with her.

That said, I agree, I think all the arab dictators love having Isreal as an enemy, it keeps the people focused on the Jewish “injustices” so they don’t turn their attention to their own countries injustices and oppressions.

Gary Rosen:

Why did Hitler come to power? Because of the horrific effects and after-effects of World War 1. And why did World War 1 happen? Because instead of using diplomacy and negotiation everyone rushed into war over NOTHING. And even ignoring that and going right to Hitler, early STRONG diplomacy, maybe backed by nations cutting off resources/arms (which is a tactic of diplomacy), might very well have stopped Hitler. Just because bad, late diplomacy didn’t work doesn’t mean diplomacy doesn’t work. And even if war was inevitable in that case, what’s your point? That diplomacy never works? Should we shut down the State Department and attack anyone who ever disagrees with us? Of course not, we ALL agree diplomacy is important, we’re just arguing over when it’s effective.

Mary Madigan:

Thanks again for your detailed response. I guess I’m still not clear on what you’re proposing – the Arab nations (and Iran) have weak militaries so Israel should do what? Destroy what little they have? To what end? What do you mean by total war? Obviously you don’t mean occupy the countries. So you attack them all and destroy their “infrastructure” (do you mean military or civilian infrastructure??) What does that accomplish? You think they all become cowed and suddenly hate Israel less? You think that once you attack them they’ll stop funding groups who oppose Israel?

You say “If Israel had decided to properly fight back against their enemies, the war would have been over decades ago, and Israel would have fewer motivated enemies now.” but how does that work? “Properly” fighting back means, if I read you right, bombing every military installation in every country. Even if that were possible for Israel, you don’t see the end result of that being virulent hatred of the Jewish people throughout the Middle East and the world? You think Jews are persecuted now, if Israel did the level of bombing you suggest it wouldn’t be safe for Jewish people to travel almost anywhere – I’m not saying that’s right, just saying it would be the reality. “Public opinion” isn’t just about touchy-feely “I want people to like us” sentiments. Public opinion is about having people in the world who co-operate with you on some level (and plenty of countries that supposedly “hate ” Israel are more than happy to trade with them right now)

Anyway, it’s a moot point. Israel could never wage a massive war like you suggest without extensive US help (there’s a huge difference between being one of the best defensive militaries on the planet and being able to wage massive offensive operations –if you remember the US had to help supply them just for their disastrous campaign in Lebanon last summer) and they would not get it. Watch gas shoot up to $10 a gallon then see how many friends Israel has left in the US congress.

I contend that Israel’s problem is that it has walked the middle ground for 40 years. It has tried to react militarily (I seem to remember occupying an entire neighboring country in the hopes of wiping out the PLO) while half-heartedly pursuing negotiations. They sorta gave the Palestinians their own land, but always under the control of Israel, so it was never a separate state, more like a semi-autonomous region.

Sad:

You can argue technicalities all you want – the fact is that there were people living in these places and they were forced out (or frightened out) by people who didn’t live there – or who found themselves under the control of the new comers. Do I have an historical right to live where I am right now? Well, I certainly have more right than someone who wants to take it away because their ancestors lived here centuries or millennium ago (can’t remember the plural- lol). But let’s say I agree with every point you made (and I don’t) – where does that leave us now? What should be done with the Occupied Territories/the current Palestinian state?

Dec 28, 2008 - 9:58 am 62. G Farmer:

Yeah, HAMAS goaded Israel into war. Maybe you need to read your own newspaper Haaretz that reported that Israel has been planning this attack for 6 months.

Dec 28, 2008 - 10:42 am 63. poul:

MarkFradl,

Thank you for the somewhat civil and thoughtful response (even if I was called a “weapon” against Israel) -

“I was talking about the fact there are 25,000 Jews in Iran not as an example of how perfect and free from discrimination they are, but as proof that Muslims are not blood-thirsty killers who will stop at nothing until all Jews are dead” -

you forgot the part “or subdued”. when you bring it back, you get a correct description:

“Muslims are blood-thirsty killers who will stop at nothing until all Jews are dead or subdued”.

thanks for trying, though.

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:49 am 64. Mary Madigan:

So you attack them all and destroy their “infrastructure” (do you mean military or civilian infrastructure??)

Terrorist militias are mostly supported by petrodollars from Saudi Arabia and Iran. Dismantling the oil economy would be an important first step in any war against terrorism.

Sunni terrorists like al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Toiba, etc. are mostly supported by wealthy Saudis and other Wahhabi affiliated Arabs in the UAE. Billions of dollars of charitable funds for terrorism are funneled through the Islamic banking system, through Britain and the Muslim brotherhood’s offshore accounts, through Swiss banks and the Taliban’s drug trade. These terrorists are trained in Pakistani madrassas and and through Pakistan’s intelligence services. Some terrorist groups in Thailand and Tobago are trained by Libya.

Shi’ite terror militias like Hezbollah are mostly funded by Iran. Hezbollah threatens Israel and Lebanon’s security. They’re supported by billionaire Mullahs in Iran, as well as by drug trade and smuggling operations in the US and South/Central America.

Dismantling any part of this illegal infrastructure would be part of an effective war against terrorism. If we weren’t allied with some these terror supporters, that job would be easier. We could at least identify the enemy.

“Properly” fighting back means, if I read you right, bombing every military installation in every country.

No, properly fighting back means disabling every paramilitary installation in every country, a much smaller and much more limited endeavor. It’s what we all would be doing if we were serious about fighting terrorism.

You think Jews are persecuted now, if Israel did the level of bombing you suggest it wouldn’t be safe for Jewish people to travel almost anywhere – I’m not saying that’s right, just saying it would be the reality.

No, that’s not the reality in the Middle East. Arab cultures respect the ’strong horse’ in any conflict. When someone refrains from fighting back, when they don’t respond reasonably to obvious provocation, that’s a sign of weakness.

Jimmy Carter’s weak response to the hostage crisis in Iran made us a laughingstock in the Islamic world. Khomeni called Carter the ‘headless chicken’. When we ran from provocation in Lebanon, when we ran away from Somalia, this did more to endanger American tourists around the world than any bombing campaign. When Israel refused to respond effectively to terrorist provocation, they encouraged more attacks against Israelis.

The ‘middle ground’ method of allying with some terrorists while condemning others also endangers civilians, by encouraging and legitimizing ‘our’ extremists. Our weak response to Saudi sponsored terrorism and our continued alliance with them encourages genuinely dangerous people, like Putin, to see how far he can push us. The middle ground is not the best path.

Dec 28, 2008 - 1:11 pm 65. MarkFradl:

Poul -

Thanks for sharing your hatred with us. Nothing like seeing someone judge an entire religion solely on the basis of their worst elements. Does this mean I should start judging all Jewish people on the basis of those who call for extermination of the Palestinians, or those who supported the murder of Rabin? Congratulations, you have become that which you claim to oppose – stereotyping, fear-mongering, and bigotry. Watch as the oppressed become the oppressors.

Mary Madigan-

You’re going to “dismantle” the oil infrastructure of Arab countries? I hope you mean by getting our country away from fossil fuels, in that case I’m with you. But if you mean dismantling through military action, good luck – as those Israeli jets head toward bombing the oil fields they’ll be met by the American jets defending them.

“No, properly fighting back means disabling every paramilitary installation in every country”

And good luck with that. How do you plan to attack bases in Pakistan? Sure, you could bomb them and destroy some of the bases (assuming you can get there since you have to fly through Syria, Iraq, and Iran), but of course that would probably topple the Pakistani government and usher in a more radical one. Even our limited raids into Pakistan have caused large demonstrations and created potential instability.

Libya? They’re off our terrorism list, good luck getting support for attacking them (and yes, Israel would need American support). And the Saudis? Piss them off enough and they’ll stop buying up so much of our (United States) debt, then we’re really in trouble. How about if we have a huge investment in alternative energy to keep oil prices low and drain their resources? (something the Left has advocated for DECADES!) How about a fair and rational foreign policy that doesn’t make us hated all over the planet (the image of the US and Israel is so intertwined that hatred of one bleeds onto the other)

We agree that the middle ground is not the place to be, we just disagree which side to move to. I think this idea that the Arab countries will suddenly be tame if you attack them is wrong, to put it mildly. Show me ANY expert who says that invading Iraq has hurt recruitment for terrorist organizations, or lessened terrorist activity. It hasn’t – terrorism recruitment went through the roof. Israel invaded Lebanon and occupied it for years…how’d that work out for ya? We attacked Iraq when it went into Kuwait, which put us in a situation that led directly to 9/11 and to the second Iraq invasion (to say nothing of the untold suffering of over 175,000 US soldiers due to Gulf War Syndrome– a just released Congressional study: http://www.wbur.org/news/2008/82177_20081224.asp ) And the reference to Gulf War syndrome might seem like a side issue, but it’s not. It’s a perfect example of the unexpected consequences of war and military action. There are always horrible side effects, it’s never as simple as “bang bang, problem gone”– that’s why I view war and military action as a last resort.

And let’s remember why Iran hated us enough to take those hostages – because we overthrew their government in the 1950s (the closest they ever had to a democracy) and propped up a dictator Shah – more of that muscular foreign policy so widely advocated here. All because the leader was daring to nationalize their oil.

How about another example of the much ridiculed (here) concept of negotiation and compromise – for years we fought a losing battle against the Sunni insurgents (for lack of a better word) in Iraq, and it got us no where. Oh, we demonized them, said they were all terrorists, that they couldn’t be reasoned with, that they were all death-crazed muslims… and then you know what we did? We started talking to them and we put them all on the payroll. We paid them not to shoot at us and blow us up. Guess what – the insurgency dried up. If a Democratic president would have started paying off the exact same people who had been blowing up Americans he would have been impeached. But Bush does it, and there’s not a peep of protest from the Right (I think it was great, but then I thought it was great back when the right was calling such ideas weak and defeatist). And in Afghanistan, there’s more and more talk about the need to negotiate with the Taliban, and it’s going to happen. It’s not a good solution, but it’s the best of bad solutions.

How about something we might agree on: massive investment and support for alternative fuels/conservation/efficiency so we can drive the price of oil down to $5 a barrel and cripple the power of people like the Saudis.

Dec 28, 2008 - 2:24 pm 66. Mary Madigan:

How about another example of the much ridiculed (here) concept of negotiation and compromise – for years we fought a losing battle against the Sunni insurgents (for lack of a better word) in Iraq, and it got us no where. Oh, we demonized them, said they were all terrorists, that they couldn’t be reasoned with, that they were all death-crazed muslims… and then you know what we did? We started talking to them and we put them all on the payroll. We paid them not to shoot at us and blow us up.

No, that’s not what happened in Iraq. If we could bribe terrorists and pay them not to blow us up, there would be no Israeli/Palestinian conflict. We’ve been giving millions of dollars to Hamas and Fatah-connected groups, and they’re still throwing missiles at Israeli civilians. The fact that we pay bribes to terrorists, even though they continue to attack us also convinces Arabs that we’re mooks.

Most of the suicide bombers in Iraq were Saudi/al Qaeda, sent to kill Americans with the blessings of the Saudi government. At first, the Sunnis in Iraq welcomed al Qaeda, but they soon tired of AQI’s Saudi charm. They formed vigilante groups, killed quite a few vicious but stupid AQ, and the Anbar awakening gained strength. The American army, let by Petraeus, decided to work with the Anbar Awakening instead of against it. They gave the Sunnis military support, they kept the movement from degenerating into a tribal/vigilante mess by showing them the value of working with the state instead of against it. American troops started working with the community.

Large scale military operations and bombing campaigns wouldn’t work, and I was not advocating that. Anti-terrorist action based on the Anbar awakening could be one way of dismantling paramilitary organizations. We’re only beginning to learn about effective counterterrorism. For years, the military and our government had no interest in fighting those types of wars. The first book on counter-terrorism was published in 2005.

You appear to have some weird fear about pissing off the Saudi sponsors of 9/11 and Al Qaeda in Iraq. This is an irrational fear that Democrats and Republicans share, and I’ve never understood it. They’re our enemies, of course we should respond to their many attacks. That’s why the policy of allying with our enemies is such a bad idea.

Developing energy alternatives will also piss them off, and I agree, driving the price of oil down and crippling their power should be our primary goal.

Dec 28, 2008 - 3:33 pm 67. george searing:

the situation is clear its either we have Israel who is our friend or we have the Muslims in gaza. we can’t have both,one has to die The hatred will never be gone the wantig to kill all jews will never die, so it is simply them or us. Nuke them out of exhistance or have them do that to Israel when Iran gets their nukes. The left in our country has never understood that there are people you just can’t live with, the ones that want you to listen to their crazy religion or die . All religions have at one time had the join or die mentality but that was long ago in modern times every religion except the Muslims have learned to live and let live.they are living in the dark ages either they learn to accept others rights to worship as they please or they have to go. let them go to their ALLAH nuke them!!!!1

Dec 29, 2008 - 7:48 am 68. MarkFradl:

George Searing:

Nuking the “muslims” is so messy, nuclear fallout and all that. How about if you just round them up, send them to camps, and gas them. Men, women, and children. Be sure to get their gold teeth so you can pay for the costs of exterminating them!

Wanna know when we’ll have world peace? When genocidal people like you are recognized for the loud-mouthed bigots they are.

Dec 29, 2008 - 12:27 pm 69. Serge:

Pali’s need to crack down on their own extremists if there is going to be ANY chance for peace. Though I know there are various sides and reasons for this conflict, people need to let go of the past and work toward a peaceful future.

If the bloodthirsty Muslim Extremists continue to strike Israel with impunity, and their Muslim brothers and sisters do nothing to stop them, then war is the only alternative. Is there a better solution? I’m listening…

Dec 29, 2008 - 1:17 pm 70. AmWiser:

See how the popular majority /elected party in Palestine demonstrates on TV their joy for bloodlust with respect to Jews.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2008/12/video-hamas-television-celebrates.html

Dec 29, 2008 - 1:43 pm 71. vivo:

It’s all very simple:

Israel and their enemies will not stop fighting until they kill each other completely.

The idiots are the ones who support one or the other: let them do it alone.

Dec 30, 2008 - 4:45 am 72. Lynn:

Another proxy war brought to us by Iran. They have infiltrated gaza and supply the arms.

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:51 am 73. JamesG:

Oh my. I thought I would resort to the web in order to find out a bit more about what is going on with the Israel/Palestine conflict. The awful news of fear, hate and hurt (on both sides) shown on UK TV News prompted me to do so. I have largely sped-read the posts on this board and I am so shocked and saddened. I never quite appreciated how visceral peoples feelings are on this. The heat of hatred and loss of reason. Rest assured, I am retreating back to my previous state of ignorance. Please start treating Mark Fradl with a bit more respect, whilst you may not agree with his opinions, he surely is to be applauded for presenting evidently alternate views to the majority in a cogent and intelligent manner. I hope things work out there. I really do.

Dec 30, 2008 - 10:42 am 74. nicholas g:

its election time soon in israel and some politicians need to show the electorate that they are tough on the palestinians. pity innocent arabs have to die so some jewish politician can further their caree.

Dec 30, 2008 - 7:32 pm 75. sassinfras:

serge, of course there is a better solution. dismantle the illegal settlement and withdraw from all palestinian land without conditions. hamas and fatah have both stated if this is done then the palestinians with recognise israel and peace will follow

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:22 pm 76. Serge:

sassinfras… That is NOT going to happen, because it is no longer THEIR land. Punto. Palestinians need to get over that and find a way to co-exist with the Jews, instead of firing rockets at them. And lets be serious, even if the Jews gave them back their land, the Hamas & Fatah are going to keep trying to kill them. It’s what keeps them going! It’s religious fanaticism and an unfortunate need to keep living in the past that is keeping many Palestinians in an emotional dark age. Why not co-exist? Freakin religious zealots and “holy lands”… what a bunch of crap! I feel bad for all the innocents caught in middle of this, but I don’t blame the Jews for doing what they have to do to keep their people safe.

Jan 4, 2009 - 10:11 pm

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