Pajamas Media

19 Comments

1. pablito:

Institutionalized Stockholm syndrome.

Oct 13, 2007 - 10:59 am 2. Noga:

How will Dubai learn, if not by example? No use expecting reciprocity between undemocratic Islamic regimes and the American Republic. The fact that Dubai does not go out of its way to respect other religions should not set the standard of behaviour for enlightened societies.

Oct 13, 2007 - 11:53 am 3. Dave In NH:

Nice idealism, Noga. But the sad truth is the entire Islamic world has made itself judenrein and is heading that way vis-a-vis Christianity. Moreover, their psychopathology seems to take our openness for weakness. So it ain’t so simple, is it?

Oct 13, 2007 - 12:36 pm 4. Bapakgila:

The fact of the matter is, asking for reciprocity for your Religious beliefs be it non-Islamic in a Islamic country would be like asking Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to convert to Christianity, it isn’t going to happen! Of all the Islamic countries I’ve worked in or visited, not one even hinted respect for any other religion outside of Islam when out of the public eyes of the media. As a American who has witnessed the burning and destruction of churches and Hindu temples while working in Muslim countries, one thing has always remain consistent in every Islamic country in the world, where ever Islam exists, other Religions perish by violent means, and wherever Islam migrates too, religious tolerance and religious freedoms flee. Hence, don’t hold your breath for any Muslim country to open their doors to other religious practices, Dubai and Saudi Arabia are the rule, not the exception. Just ask the Christians in Sudan how tolerant the Muslims are if you can find any still alive.

Oct 13, 2007 - 1:16 pm 5. RE:

Until a Christian can visit Mecca the way a Muslim can visit the Vatican today, there should be NO concessions whatsoever on the part of the West.

Zero, none, nada, zip.

The game these imams are playing is for losers and fools.

Oct 13, 2007 - 5:47 pm 6. Ira Zad:

Someone should pound this fact through the thick skulls of the ‘politically correct’ officials running this country: The more you pander to, and try to appease Islam in this country, the weaker you will appear in the eyes of radical Islam all over the middle east, and especially to the terror-head of them all, the Iranian regime who are at war with the US (or did the ‘Green Light’ officials not see this fact, either?)

Stop this nonsense, and act with resolve and serious action against radical Islam, especially against Iranian Theo-dictatorship right now. Time is not on our side in this. Our so-called friends in Europe; Germany, Austria, even UK are already plotting and implementing the next form of the Islamist regime in Iran: Ahamadinejad ousted in favor of Khatami and Rafsanjani returning.

Oct 13, 2007 - 6:56 pm 7. Noga:

I’m sort of puzzled as to how exactly American Muslims are responsible for the religious policies of Saudi Arabia and Dubai. What’s the big deal anyway about making anyone feel welcome and part of a larger community? How can it hurt American interests to express their respect and solicitude towards a segment of its own citizens?? This is not an issue of reasonable accomodation, where Muslims demand special consideration. It’s a voluntary gesture of generosity by a society that can afford to signal its good will and respect. It’s just that extra nod of recognition that sometimes disarms an angry heart.

Oct 13, 2007 - 7:40 pm 8. mishu:

What’s the big deal anyway about making anyone feel welcome and part of a larger community?

Maybe because of the big hole in the ground to the south of the Empire State building. Why make the raiders feel welcome?

Oct 13, 2007 - 10:40 pm 9. Noga:

I don’t think the The Empire State Building is lit green to welcome the 9/11 killers.

It is very important to distinguish between the Islamofascist Jihadists and general Muslims.

Oct 14, 2007 - 5:53 am 10. jonathan:

Indonesia is the worlds biggest muslim country and they freely allow christians to worship and there are dozens of churches in jakarta alone.

I live in Indonesia and i go to church every sunday.

so please guys- especially Bapakgila- get a grip and remember what the founding fathers called for (or maybe you dont agree with them?

Oct 14, 2007 - 7:20 am 11. Barry:

Then when Hannukah and Christmas roll around some Moslem will fly a plane into the Empire state Building because it’s celebrating an Infidel holiday and that Offends Allah.
Then the next Building will remain green lit 24/7/365
“Ya gets what ya pays for”

Oct 14, 2007 - 8:43 am 12. michaelJ:

For esteemed posters here illuminating this thread with genuine discourse, I highly recommend that you read –

“god is not GREAT: How Religion Poisons Everything.” (2007) by Christopher Hitchens.

From the Preface —

“As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything.”

Refute this thesis at your peril.

Oct 14, 2007 - 9:46 am 13. RE:

“Religion poisons everything.”

The problem you have with that belief that is that Atheism is a religion in its own right.

It’s not religion. It’s the human condition.

Oct 14, 2007 - 11:04 am 14. Bapakgila:

I also lived in Indonesia Jonathan for a very long time and it appears that you need to get outside of Jakarta more often or is it that you are afraid to venture out because you are Christian or is it that you are yet another Muslim that is blinded by your faith in the sword, and the crescent Moon God Allah? Please tell me why if Indonesian Christians can freely practice their Religion their Churches are burned to the grown while government officials silently look on or Christian teenage girls are beheaded on their way to school or convicted Bali bombers are sharing tea with top defense and security ministers. Better yet, why can’t Christians build churches outside of large cities like Jakarta or freely celebrate Easter Sunday without fear of Muslim gangs killing them in broad daylight or celebrate Mass in Jakarta without daily protests by Muslim organizations calling for the elimination of all Christians and Christian Churches with impunity from the government?

Freedom is defined many ways in different countries and in Indonesia, like all other Muslim countries, non-Muslims freedoms are defined with a very narrow set of rules to abide by that if a Muslim was subjected too in this country, would be suing our government within seconds with the full support and financial backing of CAIR . If you want to work in Indonesia in the government you have to be Muslim, if you want to be recognized by your community (Kampung) or apply for a loan, you must be a Muslim unless you have special connections. Also If you want to pray to God and not Allah, you must do it quietly and under the watchful eye of a Muslim Policemen and of course it goes without saying, if you build a Church, they will build a bigger Mosque right next door to you and aim their speakers at your church and play the call to prayer as loud as possible just when the sermon starts.

The day any Muslim country recognizes other faiths like America does is the day our earth stops spinning or America wakes up and finally comes to terms with the fact that if Mohammad were alive today, he would be considered a terrorist by western standards but a saint by Middle Eastern standards. So, the final question is, do we want to give up all our rights in America for the sake of one Religion or stop the spread of radical Islam in America by recognizing that all the other faiths have a right to practice their religion in peace by western standards and not by Islam’s standards?

Oct 14, 2007 - 2:55 pm 15. AnonymousCoward:

Who cares what they do in Dubai√â We are not living in Dubai. We don’t have Dubai’s rules. Our version of democracry is not the same as theirs.

I find it so funny when our conduct is supposed to be dictated by the conduct of other countries that have crappy systems as compared to ours.

Oct 14, 2007 - 8:00 pm 16. Little Much:

This is a perfect point that shows just how SUPERIOR Christian-based nations are over Muslim-based nations.

Muslim intolerance, by way of Islam, of all non-muslims residing within their own countries is blatant and rather disgusting. It does also indeed speak volumes to what kind of people – the followers of Islam are.

Cheers to America and Non-Muslims everywhere.

Oct 15, 2007 - 1:50 pm 17. Jingoist:

Noga and Jonathan, thanks for the input. How can we claim that our nation is noble, free, or worthy of respect if we act exactly the same as those we dislike the most? Some of us believe it’s important to be proud of our nation and to believe that it superior to other nations because of its actions. That’s a Christian belief. I’m sorry if you don’t believe that that religion can be valuable, either.

I find many of the responses to be fallacious. Remember that the original comment was “The Empire state building is lit green for Eid[...something].” I would say, if you can’t talk about the topic, don’t press ‘reply.’

1. There’s nothing particularly politically correct about the lighting, especially if you don’t mind lighting the place for Chananaka. Numbers are shaky, but there are probably about 1/2 to 2/3 the number of Jewish US Citizens as Muslim US citizens, and most of them are in major cities because, frankly, they feel living in the suburbs and rural areas is dangerous (which, for them, it is). Think of what would happen if they moved next to Bapakgila.

2. Muslims aren’t burning a whole lot of churches, especially in the USA. White Supremists in the South are your biggest threat of that.

3. Muslims citizens aren’t flying anything into any towers, and it’s much less likely they’ll fly them into one that’s celebrating their own holiday. That’s so fallacious there’s not even a term for it.

4. “Appeasement” is generally considered giving land, money, or power to your enemy in expectation that they will be satisfied with it (Hitler: “All I want it Austria, since it was part of Germany anyway). Lighting a tower… not so much.

5. “Making people feel welcome” is not related to the terrorist attack on the Twin Towers. What you would need to make such a claim, mishu, would be that you welcomed the terrorists into your country, and that we didn’t welcome pretty much all the other people who didn’t fly planes into our buildings. That a large burden of proof.

6. I’m not going to respond to the anti-religion people. Throughout history, anti-religious dictators have killed as many folks as hypocrites touting religious names.

Bapakgila, based on your grammar, I find it hard to believe you’ve maintained a job that would allow you to travel so much as you’ve said. I work with a Taoist from Malaysia, which is, I believe, second to Indonesia in Muslim population; he has no stories of repression (except that they have social values similar to the social right). I suppose “Dave in NH” is saying that Islam is heading towards the psychopathy of Christian Fundamentalism, which indeed would lead to a major problem.

Oct 16, 2007 - 11:22 am 18. Morton Doodslag:

“Nothing yet on Buddhists and Hindus”?

Seems like those groups might consider flying planes into some skyscrapers (preferably avoiding the Empire State Building in the process) and who knows? Maybe six years later they too will be having White House dinners with the US President and gettig the Empire State Building to glimmer in their colors of choice!

Oct 16, 2007 - 8:14 pm 19. Bapakgila:

While I’ll admit my comments aren’t as well edited, carefully crafted, or rehearsed as Mr. Jingoist, clearly, our sanctimonious Jingoist who sees no issue lighting up an American structural Icon is missing the whole point. This obsequious gesture is like saying thank you to Osama bin Laden for everything he has done for our country. Beyond that, it just insults all the people that died at the hands of radical Islamists. Like Jingoist, I too was sympathetic and all too understanding of Islam until I spent more than a few years living and working in Islamic countries, visiting countless of Masjids, and listening first hand to so called moderate Imams talk about America and our values and freedoms. Clearly, according to every Imam I have listened to and most every Muslim I have met, America is the cause of all their problems for the past 14 years. However, Jingoist makes some fine points which all ring vapid after even the most rudimental examination.

While like most people agree with Noga and Jonathan that in order to “claim that our nation is noble, free, or worthy of respect” we shouldn’t act like other nations such as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Malaysia (which is passing a law as we speak to implement Sharia law), Sudan, Omen, etc… and every other Islamic nation that doesn’t respect other religions, and that kill Christians for carrying bibles in public, burn churches on a daily basis, behead priests, stone Christians, and intimidate non-Muslims through either legal or violent measure. etc… if America was to act as Jingoist, Noga, and Jonathan wished, they wouldn’t have any of their current rights as they currently enjoy under our current democracy. Try carrying a Bible into Omen or Saudi Arabia sometime and you’ll see what I’m talking about. These same people that don’t recognize Christianity and democracy in their country, are running the very organizations such as CAIR, MAS, MSA, etc… that are trying to destroy our democracy while utilizing the same constitutional protections to protect themselves. So I guess the question is, where do you draw the noble, free, and worth of respect line in the sand?

1. Jewish, like Chicano and other ethnic groups move to cities because like most immigrates, they migrate to places where people that share their language and culture already live, not because rural areas aren’t safe. Also, I for one am not beheading Muslims because of their beliefs or strapping bomb vests onto followers of my religious beliefs nor am I discriminating against people because of their faith, I am merely trying to protect my rights since I know from experience, where Islam goes, freedom flees and isn’t that all of our concern?
2. Muslims aren’t burning churches in America now but like Europe where Muslims have been migrating too since the seventies, Muslims have already started
a. Burning churches
b. Intimating Christians right in front of their Churches
c. Purposely blasting the call of prayer over loud speakers into Christian neighborhoods on a daily basis starting at 3:30AM every morning
d. Burning and looting of Christian and Hindu businesses
e. Legally challenging the building of Churches near Mosques that are funded by Wahhabis
f. Getting special rights and privileges to practice Sharia Law
Of course that is only the tip of the iceberg so I think the bigger picture is, do you want this kind of conduct in America? While white suspremists exist, I don’t recall white supremists demanding special rights and privileges and of course while Muslims call for the beheading of everyone that defames Islam right in broad daylight in our cities, if a white supremists called for the death of African Americans he would be immediately imprisoned while the Muslim would sue and win in our court systems that calling for the death to anyone that defames Islam is his right. That doesn’t seem crazy to you?

3. I’m sorry but apparently no one is listening to the news but we have over 200 Muslim organizations with American Muslim citizens right now plotting and calling for the destruction of our way of life. Perhaps American Muslims aren’t flying planes into towers yet, but many American Muslims are plotting terror attacks against our citizens and government. Have we already forgotten about Fort Dix or Islamberg or the current trial in Texas with a list 10 pages long of Muslim organizations affiliated with terrorist groups operating right here in America. I suppose that doesn’t count? Oh yeah, I suppose the 14 hundred year war between the Shiites and Sunni’s doesn’t count or the fact that the casualties are the highest during Ramadan between these two Islamic groups?
4. So the building of water basins at state funded colleges for the religious act of “wudu” and the building of state funded prayer (Mosul) rooms on our college campuses doesn’t count while at the same time baring Christmas music from Campuses doesn’t count as appeasement to you?

History has many interpretations depending on your point of view, education, etc… so I’ll not argue the fact that anti-religious dictators such as Hitler & Mussolini were responsible for countless of deaths and religious leaders like Mohammad have killed thousands of people for their beliefs. Like Jingoist, I too have many friends in Malaysia and all have different examples and personal stories to tell me of their daily encounters with the religion of Islam. One example would be of a Christian friend in Malaysia that was on top of the world teaching at a high school and next told to convert to Islam or lose her job. Yet, another example of a Christian Chinese in northern Malaysia that has yet to be intimidated by any Muslim her whole life. The large picture here is that where ever Islam goes, either by violence, intimidation, or other means, it eventually dominates and controls every aspect of the society it migrates too. Please name me one society where Islam is the majority that other Religious have equal rights and privileges? While Christian Fundamentalism exists in our society, any of our Christian leaders calling for the annihilation of other religious beliefs like Islam does would be sued or put in jail. Do you mean to tell me that the latest PEW reports doesn’t concern you? Knowing that almost 3 out of every 10 American Muslims under 30 believes Martyrdom (strapping a bomb on themselves and blowing up innocent people) is justified under their religion doesn’t concern you?

PS-Let yea cast the first stone that hasn’t sinned Jingoist so check your own grammar and spelling before you pick up that stone; your forgiven!!!

Oct 17, 2007 - 1:02 pm

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