127 Comments

1. Berlet98:

Ms. Gould,

It’s much less about hating Israel as it is about distrusting Israel.

(http://genelalor.com/)

Jan 6, 2009 - 12:15 am 2. Amos:

Antisemitism is the socialism of fools, they say, but socialism is already pretty much the socialism of fools so I guess antisemitism is just plain moronic.

This sea of invincible human idiocy cannot be reasoned with, but it can be crushed pretty easily through warfare, since these people are as helplessly incompetent at fighting as they are managing their contemptible, failed lives. Sooner or later they’ll get the war they want, in the meantime let them scream and shriek and beat their chests like apes.

Jan 6, 2009 - 1:42 am 3. Smilla:

Well said, Carol. The mindset of the Westerners standing in solidarity with a terrorist organisation cannot be explained by distorted media coverage alone, though. As you point out, these people are very selective in selecting the targets of their rage. I’m no psychologist, but is it an adolescent rebellion against their parents (ie adult, real world) that is being perpetually played out in their lives? How to explain the psychology of an overwhelmingly sentimental, uninformed, blind attachment to some of the worst perpetrators in the world rather than a genuine pity for, as you mention, the long-suffering people of Zimbabwe?

Jan 6, 2009 - 1:51 am 4. Eric R.:

Britain is a Nazi State. As is just about every other country in Europe.

Ms. Gould, I know you get upset when people ask why you stay in the UK, but in all seriousness, any Jew who stays in Europe today is admitting that they want to die. The hatred against Jews is now so extreme, so widespread and so acceptable, that pogroms and massacres are pretty much inevitable. The Islamists will do the killing, the authorities will do the standing around, and the Jew-hating media will blame it all on the dead Jews.

While I do not like the idea of giving Hitler his final victory — a Judenrein Europe — it is better to get a million plus Jews out safely and let the Euronazis fall under the control of the Islamists they love so much — for now.

Jan 6, 2009 - 3:07 am 5. Lisa:

And the recent attacks on synagogues in the UK and France?

Why are those going unreported?

Jan 6, 2009 - 4:10 am 6. Another View:

I just have ask what is acceptable? O.K. Israel is there NOW. They have with the Balfour Agreement conquered Palestine. With that said does that give them moral authority to do what they do? I think not. If my house was bulldozed and my Grandparents refused to leave the house they built and had paper work for and were murdered. I would also fight to the death. What is sad is the innocent suffer. Hamas and every Palestinian has every right to try to force Israel from Palestine. I am embarrassed by my countrys support for Israel. Yes born and reared in the U.S. How many of you would support American Indian land seizure today? Or Apartheid, Darfur ethnic cleansing, or the holocaust? That is what has been going on for years in Israel.

Those Hamas rockets are glorified fireworks. I completely understand why the Arabs call us the Great Satan and want Israel destroyed. I don’t agree but I truly understand. Israel is a oppressive occupier. And I want none of my tax dollars going there way. Israel gets the equivalent to $10,000.00 a year per citizen in U.S. aid.

You can’t address todays issues without facing what Israel really is. A occupying force that hordes all resources and keeps the original people in permanent refugee status.

Religion is a non factor in my view.

Jan 6, 2009 - 5:57 am 7. m:

Why are those going unreported? Because the world doesn’t care when Jewish people get attacked. But when any Jewish person does attack – it’s all over the news.

Those anti-Israel protests aren’t so huge because those people are worried about people’s well-being. The majority of the people there take advantage of the protest to talk like Nazis, because they are closet anti-Semites.

If they just march down the street and hold signs with Swastikas on them, they know they’ll be called racist. But if they act as if Jewish people are “mean murderers”, suddenly they can pretend like they’re humanitarians. This is exactly how pre-teen girls bully each other..that should tell you enough.

Jan 6, 2009 - 6:16 am 8. Lynn:

#5 Lisa
they don’t fit into the media’s talking points. One can’t report those kinds of incidents and still blame Jews for all the world’s problems. As for Zimbabwe, the Congo, Sudan, just more black on black victimization and that doesn’t count. In the Congo every day, every three hours, for the past two years, as many people are killed as have been killed in Gaza. Says something about humanity doesn’t it?

Jan 6, 2009 - 6:17 am 9. m:

Oh, and Europe? Bet you miss all the civilized Jewish people that you once had.

Enjoy the zoo you let into your continent. It’s only a matter of time before we hear about suicide bombers in London and Paris.

Jan 6, 2009 - 6:19 am 10. DoubleTapper:

The hatred prevails, they want to obliterate all that is good.
There is no end to it, even HERE!
How can we let this pass?
DoubleTapper
DoubleTapper@gmail.com
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel

Jan 6, 2009 - 6:25 am 11. ThinkingPerson:

Israel should stay the course and eradicate every last Hamas member still breathing in Gaza. Blow up every tunnel funneling weapons into the country from Egypt. Track down every Palestinian religious zealot spouting hatred against others. The world’s toleration of blatant violence and hatred against Jews has come to a head. It’s posters like #6 Another View that have brought the world to this point. They can’t see past the headlines it’s just “if they did this to me then I’d fight to the death, blah, blah, blah…”. No looking at WHY Israel is going in to rid Gaza of Hamas (not the Palestinians for those who don’t read past the headlines). Hamas = Terrorist group.

When the world started handling Islamic radicals with kids gloves in the name of political correctness, it fed the appetites of the loons who are always looking for something to put on a banner. If you think someone waving a placard that says “Let Iran have Nukes!” has any background knowledge on the situation, you’re crazy. They are like our home grown Code-Pink gang. Any reason to fight and storm Congress. The seriousness of this lies in what we’ve tolerated so far. We’ve let the genie out of the bottle and know are reaping what we’ve sown. Israel should see this through to the end. Any backing off at this point will be seen a weakness and a sure invitation for more violence in the future.

Jan 6, 2009 - 6:44 am 12. Peter the Sub Guy:

6. Another View wrote:
Hamas and every Palestinian has every right to try to force Israel from Palestine.

Peter responds: And there is where you are wrong. There is not now and has never been a country called Palestine. There was a Palestinian territory in the British Mandate of the Middle East prior to 1948, but it had just as many Jews living there as there were Arabs, so what makes the Arab claim any more valid than the Jews? The jews have been in the region for 5000 years, about 3500 years longer than Islam has even existed, so what gives the Islamists any more of a claim than the Jews? In 1948 the British said “We are giving each of you some land and giving control of it to you.” Then placed the Jews on one area of land and the Arabs on another. The Arabs didn’t like that and went to war over the land ,and got their @$$es soundly beaten. Then they went to war again and again got their @$$es soundly beaten. The same thing keeps happening over and over and over. Like the quote attributed to Einstein, “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” The Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank would probably have a healthy, thriving society (and perhaps even their own country called Palestine) by now, and for many years, if they had turned their attention to progress instead of hate and terror a long time ago.

Jan 6, 2009 - 7:14 am 13. Jay:

Britain has a long history of internal violence. Charing Cross is where the heads of those accused of treason in the Elizabethan and Jame 1 perios were displayed. The heads were cut off after the “traitor” was hung, drawn and quartered. In one case the person was not killed by hanging. Crowds came to watch for amusement.
The term “cruel and unusual punishment” in our Constitution originated from the Puritans disgust with such executions. The Left has made a big deal of the few witch burnings in Salem but punishment in America was much less severe as in England during the settlement of North America.
Also the penal colonial settlement of Australia was full of violence – against white English and Irish men and women.
I used to go to England for work every year. I hated the place including London.
When I first went there in 1963 London was very safe. Every year that I returned crime was getting worse. Now parts of London are very dangerous for outsiders. The gangs have real automatic weapons while only certain police units are allowed to carry guns.
Over ten years ago I was startled to see a police women chasing a man with her handgun up in the deployed position, in Kensington in the middle of the day!
There is a lot of rage in England now. I gather it is safe for middle class Brits to vent their rage on the Jews.

Jan 6, 2009 - 7:16 am 14. kevinS:

Re: Another view,
“Those Hamas rockets are glorified fireworks. I completely understand why the Arabs call us the Great Satan and want Israel destroyed. I don’t agree but I truly understand. Israel is a oppressive occupier. And I want none of my tax dollars going there way. Israel gets the equivalent to $10,000.00 a year per citizen in U.S. aid.”

That would work out to 3 trillion dollars per year. Is the rest of your knowledge concerning Israel as rock solid?

KevinS

Jan 6, 2009 - 7:32 am 15. susan:

funny how leftist like another view likes to distort hystory and facts

” If my house was bulldozed and my Grandparents refused to leave the house they built and had paper work for and were murdered. ”

Palestinians had “paper work” for the lands they possessed?

Let’s hear what some true hystorians had to say

The British Consul in Palestine reported in 1857 that

The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population….

Mark Twain, in his inimitable fashion, expressed scom for what he called the “romantic” and “prejudiced” accounts of Palestine after he visited the Holy Land in 1867.In one location after another, Twain registered gloom at his findings.

Stirring scenes … occur in the valley [Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent-not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings.

So “palestine” was a desert.

The land was indeed bought, often at exorbitant prices, but from rich absentee owners, who did not live on it or cultivate it. When the late Ottoman Empire was bankrupt and in dire need of money, it sold huge tracts to rich Arab merchants in Jaffa, Beirut and other cities, who bought them as an investment. The Arab Felaheen (farmers), who had tilled the land for many generations, were mere tenants. When the Jewish National Fund bought the land, the Felaheen were driven out, often with the help of the Turkish, and later the British police.

so as you can read, they sold it willingly.

For those reasons and for many others, the muslim claim on judea is simply ridiculous.

If you pay attention muslims usually claim ownership of the whole world. Watch out, what happens in israel will happen soon anywhere else in the world with a 10% muslim population.

Jan 6, 2009 - 7:37 am 16. Mary Madigan:

How many of you would support American Indian land seizure today?

I do. American Indians have reclaimed and seized a fair portion of land in the West and in the Northeast. You know, that’s why we have all of those casinos and tax-free cigarette shops. The Oneida nation owns a reasonable portion of Western New York state. Non-Indians can rent property within their nation, but they can’t own it.

Israel owns a comparatively tiny portion of the Middle East. If Americans treated the Indians the way the Arabs treat Israel, we’d be sending suicide bombers into the casinos and throwing clumsy rockets at their tax-free cigarette stores. We’d be threatening any reporters who didn’t cover the story the way we wanted it to be covered. There wouldn’t be many people with Indian blood living among the Americans, because we’d have created a series of apartheid laws that would force them to emigrate.

If we fighting the way the Arab nations are ‘fighting’, and if the Indians did fight back, we would organize groups around the world to wail and cry and beg for a treaty that would include the ‘right of return’ to our lost, casino and tax-free-cigarette strewn land. We would condemn their religion and their culture, we would march through their neighborhoods bellowing, ranting and threatening the children. In short, we would be acting like a bunch of racist zealots who can’t fight worth a damn. If we ever acted the way the Hamas supporters are acting, I would be embarrassed by my country.

Jan 6, 2009 - 7:40 am 17. TalkinKamel:

Susan, good points. Just another historical point—Islam originated in Saudi Arabia, among the native-born Arabs there, not in Israel, and it was founded in the 7th Century, and spread by the sword. It’s an import to the rest of the Middle-East, which, before its coming, was Jewish/Christian/pagan. In short, Moslem Arabs are relative newcomers, and conquerers.

Not that any of this is going to convince any leftists. To them, Palestinian always equals good, Israel (and America) bad. It’s an emotional, not a rational, thing.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:02 am 18. Lynn:

#6 Another view
How can one claim refugee status if they are living in the state they claim as their own? There are zero refugees in Gaza or the West Bank. How moronic to claim such tripe! And you should be embarrassed. How would you like to spend your days for two years running for a bomb shelter every time a siren goes off? How about being a kid sitting in school when the rocket attacks happen? I am embarrassed and ashamed of you as an American.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:28 am 19. susan:

what is truly pathetic is that another view posted the same exact post he did here (n.6) in another thread, he’s just here to spread propaganda, insult our intelligence and spoil the discussion. If moderators here are so obsessed with pre-screening posts, at least they should forbid cross posting and copy and paste.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:30 am 20. roGER:

Ms. Gould wrote:

“I reminded him that Rabin had given back Nablus and Bethlehem and that Begin had given back the Sinai.”

I would remind Ms Gould it wasn’t theirs to take in the first place.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:45 am 21. TalkinKamel:

Yes, it’s moronic, yes, it’s tripe, but the Left will continue to claim all of this.

Remember, to the Left. . .

Israel = Bad. Palestinians = Good.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:49 am 22. Ann:

Ms. Gould,

Wilson Goode’s 1985 mistake aside, I think you should move here to Philly! It sounds like you’d be safer here than in London.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:51 am 23. Andrew Ian Dodge:

First of all its brave of you to head to one of those hates fests. I used to live in Pimlico so know all about the types that show up. This is a great bit of on-the-ground reporting of what it truly entailed.

Jan 6, 2009 - 8:54 am 24. susan:

20 roger

those lands were conquered through wars that the israelis didn’t start.

Are you willing to give back to the legitimate owner all the lands that your country conquered?

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:05 am 25. Thomas:

The leftists – like “another view” cannot forgive that Israel did not follow through Stalin’s instructions for a truly Socialist country. They attack Israel for all imaginable reason because they got pissed off, feel disappointed in their ideology and Israel appears to be an easy target.
The “another view” type Daily Kos acolytes have no stamina much less courage to criticize Fidel, Putin, Hu, etc. because those scumbag would squash them as if they were cockroaches; – may be they are just that indeed.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:07 am 26. Peter the Sub Guy:

20. roGER wrote:
I would remind Ms Gould it wasn’t theirs to take in the first place.

Peter responds: Which is like saying Kabul and Kandahar weren’t the US military’s to take. It was war. Israel was attacked, and the only way to defend themselves from further attack was to take and hold land that belonged to the enemy. Does your country (wherever you live) do any less, roGER?

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:25 am 27. Lynn:

# 20 Roger
I would remind you the ONLY reason Israel is in the West Bank and Gaza is five Arab armies attacked them. The Arabs lost. When Jordan and Egypt were offered the land back, they refused it. They didn’t want the problem either.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:28 am 28. epb:

I wish these protestors would get a job, but these bigots are in the business of producing and exporting ignorance, intolerance and hate.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:45 am 29. TalkinKamel:

Unfortunately, ignorance, intolerance and hate are these bigots’ jobs!

Jan 6, 2009 - 10:17 am 30. colby:

Another View:

Way to drag out the tired old “Arabs were there first” argument, even though its historically inaccurate. I also liked how you buttressed your argument against Israel’s tactics with an imaginary Palestinian grandfather story. But as long as you get to make your point, who cares about facts.

Jan 6, 2009 - 12:46 pm 31. Rose:

Europe is traveling down a road it already traveled. It embraced Hitler and his socialist doctorine until he turned his blood thirsty lips on Poland. He was invited to a party and he brought his army to invade, we liberaled Europe once, we’re done like dinner. If the Euroleftards want to embrace the Islamists and their useful idiots we’ll happyily take in the Jews that will have to flee from their blood thirsty hands. First it was Hitler and his socialist/communist doctorine we had to fight and now it’s the self same socialist doctorine dressed up as NuLabour.

I am so sick and tired of the hate the liberals/Nulabour/socialist espouse, they have destroyed the fabric of British Society and they’ve negated Human Rights for women, Jews and Gays back 50 years in the name of tolerating Sharia Law.

The Jews bought the land lawfully from the Arab Muslims unfortunately the migratory Arabs have a history of taking what they don’t own by force or violence. Today Palestine is made up of people from Jordan and Egypt, the only Palestinians are the Jews.

That in a nut shell is the truth, Israel gave away land it legally owned for peace and look how that turned out.

Jan 6, 2009 - 2:47 pm 32. ThinkingPerson:

A question for the peanut gallery….Any opinion as to how Obama is going to handle this current Israeli/Gaza fighting? Will it be he or Hillary that lays down the new U.S. gameplan? In my opinion Obama is a blank slate on Israel. Frightening.

Jan 6, 2009 - 3:28 pm 33. john from cinncinatti:

i feel no sympathy for the Palestinians who danced and celebrated 9/11. who is reaping the whirlwind.

Jan 6, 2009 - 5:36 pm 34. Another View:

To All;

Israel sympathizers. That in it self is a oxy moron. You obviously are using the arguement Britain won the war against the Ottamans as your bases for there was no Palestine. That is where you start your ignorance. You must first understand Western borders and maps are only so relavant. These people were there and they had established commuities. You believe the lies that the land was barren. These people used and had access to the resources they needed.

The truth is is Israel is just a zionist apartheid state.People of the Yewish faith were the minority prior to Ben-Gurion. It has nothing to do with religion. Its all about Sephardi,Ashkenazi and Khazar stuff.If It was about Judaism the face of Israel would be much more diverse and tolerant. Ever since you had that paper British Agreement(Balfour agreement) you have been slaughtering natives and semites. It is human nature to resist oppression. They are indeed freedom fighters.

Jan 6, 2009 - 6:15 pm 35. TalkinKamel:

The Arabs originated in Saudi Arabia. They did not spread out across the rest of the Middle-East until the 7th Century. They have no roots in Israel. They were not there first.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:02 pm 36. TalkinKamel:

The Jews were in Israel long before the British, the Ottomans, the Romans, the Greeks or the Islamic armies that came boiling out of Saudi Arabia in the 7th Century.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:04 pm 37. TalkinKamel:

John, I’m with you. I remember the Palestinians dancing on 9/11, and, somehow, my sympathy meter’s just not working for them at the moment. Seems to be broken. . .

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:05 pm 38. TalkinKamel:

There was never a Palestinian king (unless you want to count Yassir Arafat—he certainly was a tyrant). Roman and Greek historians, good observers, never mention a Palestinian people, separate from the Jews, with their own language and culture—they only speak of the Jews. At the time of the Crusades, Israel was controlled by Egypt. When the Crusaders attacked, the locals had to send to Egypt for assistance. There is no separate Palestinian language; the Palestinians speak Arabic.

Islam is a much younger religion than either Judaism or Christianity, and, as I said earlier, it originated in Saudi Arabia, among the Arab tribes living there, not Jerusalem. When the Arabs conquered Jerusalem, there were already Jews and Christians living there. Islam is an import to the area, it didn’t originate in the Holy Land.

The holy city of Islam is Mecca, which is in Saudi Arabia. The holy city of the Jews is Jerusalem, in Israel.

Many writers, such as Mark Twain, have testified to the barren, underdeveloped nature of the Holy Land, before the Jews came to renew in the late 19th, early 20th Century.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:18 pm 39. harry:

The people of Gaza chose their leaders and their leaders are sworn to the destruction of Israel, therefore, all people of Gaza are fair targets. If A=B and B=C then A=C, simple math.
So much for innocent bystanders. If you think not then legitimiize the daily pounding of Israeli civilians by Palestinian Qassam rockets. A simple solution might be to not send a barrage of rockets onto your neighbors homes. The media pities the poor Palestinians but then they are taught to hate Jews and Israel from their first lesson in school. Not exactly a good prospect for peace.
You know what’s funny? The demonstrators in London. The damn British carved out the Middle East when they as imperialists ruled over it a hundred years ago. They created all those lines on the map that we stupidly took as righteous only to find that there was no logic or human emotions attached. Most of us had no clue Iraq was really three distinct provinces not counting the myriad tribal territories. The Kurds in the north the Sunni’s in the middle and the Shiites to the south. The British promised Jews a homeland smack dab in the middle of Islam. Well, what would one expect? The crusades taught us they weren’t going to accept anything other than Islam. Meanwhile Britain finds itself resembling Cairo more than London. So in 2009 we live in a global society only it really isn’t that global. I mean, if a bunch of Chinese or even Americans wanted to live in downtown Tokyo I doubt they’d be welcome. What is really globalized? America Europe and a few other locales and that’s about it. Sure there are people mixed-in everywhere but in small minorities. But in many parts of the world strangers are not welcome. The Middle East being one. If you aren’t Islamic you have no say. In fact you’re less than human. If the world is to be financially global then it must be politically global. Jews must be allowed in Mecca as sure as Saudi’s are allowed in London and in New York. Japanese as allowed in Beijing as sure as Americans are allowed in Tokyo. Until such time we must persevere in our current state. Palestinians were allowed to be in Israel and commerce between the two was conducted but certain factions created the enmity which now drastically divides the two. These factions must be removed in order for normal relations to develop. Those who talk peace must insure peace. Egypt and France cannot talk peace unless they can guarrantee it and they can’t! All they can guarrantee is more rockets pounding civilian Israeli targets.

Jan 6, 2009 - 9:27 pm 40. therealist:

Good article. You would think that after 9/11 and 7/7 anyone in the US or UK would support any country’s efforts to wipe terrorists off the map. Instead everyone’s competing to see who can be the next Neville Chamberlain.

Jan 6, 2009 - 10:48 pm 41. Micha Elyi:

The truth is there’s the truth and there’s Another View.

Jews in what was Israel and Judea before the Romans renamed it Palestine lived on land they owned and were terrorized by Arab Muslims. The governments of the time, the Ottoman Empire and later the British Empire either ignored Arab terrorism against Jews or failed to put a stop to it.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
U.S. Declaration of Independence

And so the Jews living on the land of their forebearers, instituted a government to “effect their safety” and thus was created the modern state of Israel.

There’s another view that Jews should shut up, suffer, and be slaughtered. Never again will another view of that kind be tolerated. Never again will those who tolerate such a view be accepted among honest and civilized people.

Jan 6, 2009 - 11:51 pm 42. another view:

The point is The zionist in Israel have no seriuos claim to Israel because They are Euro Jewish converts. Not the original Israelites that emigrated from Eygpt. It is that simple. The Euro Jews used religion in modern times to steal land.. And now have a culture political war. Stop using Jewish as a culture. I don’t care about any religious issues. The issue is Europeans have thrusted themselves into Arab/African lands again and have no authentic claim to the land. And in doing so opress the natives. The zionist are from Khazaria. Modern day Georgia. When I see decendants of Solomon and Sheeba in the Israeli parliment. Then you can have a honest debate

To this day it is celebrated in Europe when the occupying Moors were expelled from Spain. Get the heck outta The middle east.

And every modern problem in Africa is directly related to Euro colonizers..Not victimization..But that’s another story.

Jan 7, 2009 - 2:18 am 43. another view:

Also the Romans mentioned Jews as they mentioned other subjects. And the word for Palestinian is Semite. And semites are mentioned by the Romans. Semites are the nomadic groups of the Middle East. Not Euro jews who have hijacked the term.

Jan 7, 2009 - 2:47 am 44. azores:

“6. Another View wrote:
Hamas and every Palestinian has every right to try to force Israel from Palestine.”

Wise words indeed, and also clarifying. This means that there is a war between Israel and the Palestinians. In fact, a total war. So all the arguments about rights are useless, the stronger one will win.

Jan 7, 2009 - 3:18 am 45. Danny Lemieux:

I believe, Ms. Gould, that you have discovered the veneer of civilization to be very thin indeed.

Jan 7, 2009 - 5:02 am 46. Peter the Sub Guy:

42. another view wrote in his self-interested, narcissistic way:
And every modern problem in Africa is directly related to Euro colonizers..Not victimization..But that’s another story.

Peter responds: Funny, but I seem to recall several so-called nations, Zimbabwe being top of the list, that were much more successful as colonies of European nations than they are now under their own control. Some societies are very immature and chil-like and would probably benefit from being under the control of a ‘parent’ government to keep the peace and prosperity.

Jan 7, 2009 - 5:19 am 47. TalkinKamel:

Sorry, Another View, there has been a continuing Jewish presence in Israel, even after the Roman disapora. And the Arab nations kicked out many of the Jews living in the countries, so now a large part of the Israeli population is Sephardic, Middle-Eastern Jews. They’re certainly as Semetic as the citizens of any Moslem nations. And, no, sorry, they aren’t Khazars, and even European Jews who live there aren’t descended from the Khazars; they come from all over. The Khazars didn’t found modern Israel.

Did the Romans, or the Greeks, mention Palestinians per se? With their own nation? Their own king? Their own set of laws? A language different from other semetic languages? When the Greeks decided to Hellenize the Middle-East, is there any record of they’re trying to do so with a Palestinian nation? As I recall, it was just the Jews.

By the way, I belive the Ethopians, at least some of them, claim descent from a son of Solomon and Sheba. However, as Israel isn’t a monarchy, and there isn’t a current Caliph, there wouldn’t be a throne for a descendant of theirs to sit on, even if he could prove his bona fides.

Considering that Europe, as a whole, dislikes Israel, and refuses to support it, in fact supporting the “Palestinians”, who is Israel supposed to be a colony for?

(Yeah, Peter, I know; when all else fails, blame colonialism).

Jan 7, 2009 - 7:26 am 48. Judy, NYC:

the world is very very sick. it is what these medieval backward ignorant strange creatures are. that’s why the world supports terrorists. the world is sunk into a swamp of this ignorance. i think it is quicksand and i do not think it will get well for a long, long time. the world doesn’t want democracy, or a system based on english and american law. they have made it very clear what they want.

i cry for us. it’s already too late. only the courage of the israelis keeps us human, now. we don’t have long.

Jan 7, 2009 - 7:55 am 49. TalkinKamel:

Yes, Judy, I’m crying too.

Jan 7, 2009 - 8:14 am 50. tanstaafl:

You mention some of the atrocities and attacks in London/Britain, most notably, of course, July 2005.

I think such ignoramuses as you were confronting in Trafalgar Square look at such events as victories, wins, even.

In this light, appealing to them by listing attacks, atrocities, referencing all the idiots living in Britain who only live to destroy the place these days…falls on deaf ears.

As does listing any concessions (pulling out of Gaza) or any of the other efforts at peace and “goodwill” evidenced by Israel over all these many decades.

Any successful attack on a western country or any concessions made by the state of Israel are seen, by the folks whose raison d’être is the destruction of Israel, simply as wins or chinks in the armor of the Zionist entity.

Most of the people around the world violently protesting Israel at the moment are completely ignorant of the history of the people and the history of the region. The Islamists have done well in their propaganda and disinformation campaign.

(as a famous radio personality said yesterday, if he were hiring a crowd to do PR for him, he’d hire Hamas. (it was tongue in cheek for those who don’t get irony)

Who Are the Real Nazis?

Jan 7, 2009 - 8:52 am 51. susan:

the poster called ANOTHER VIEW is just a troll that cross post the SAME antisemitic post all over the threads.

He is not capable of writing down an original thought. he simply does copy and paste

Jan 7, 2009 - 9:12 am 52. Ian Thorpe:

Whenever anybody criticises Israel’s behaviour in Palestine the rabid right in America always start to scream about anti-semitism. Unfortunately the Palestinians, including Hamas, are Semites so in fact the violence is Semite on Semite.

Personally I’m neutral in this dispute but I do wish Israel’s supporters would have some regard for facts.

Jan 7, 2009 - 9:33 am 53. tanstaafl:

They’re certainly as Semetic as the citizens of any Moslem nations.

It affords (admittedly slight) comic relief amidst all the ridiculous attempts to rationalize and justify an (Allah-willed) destruction of an entire people…the genetic commonalities of Semitic peoples…

Jews and Arabs are ‘genetic brothers’

Jan 7, 2009 - 9:34 am 54. tanstaafl:

Personally, I never yell about antisemitism.

(unless of course it’s people like skinheads rearing their ugly heads, yet again, in Germany or Paris or Idaho or some place)

Anyone even vaguely familiar with the fundamental and inexorable truth that the inspiring principle of both Hamas and Hezbollah is the destruction of the Jewish state should find the current stand off between Israel and Hamas a no brainer.

Jan 7, 2009 - 9:49 am 55. Peter the Sub Guy:

52. Ian Thorpe wrote (wrongly):
Whenever anybody criticises Israel’s behaviour in Palestine the rabid right in America always start to scream about anti-semitism. Unfortunately the Palestinians, including Hamas, are Semites so in fact the violence is Semite on Semite.

Peter responds: No, the Palestinians are Arabs. They did not appear in the region until the 7th century. The Semites were there centuries if not thousands of years before the Arabs appeared and tried to steal the land.

Jan 7, 2009 - 10:01 am 56. TalkinKamel:

Ian, nobody hates semites en masse, or shouts, “Death to the Semites!” at pro Gaza rallies, or criticizes any nation for being “semetic”, or calls “semites” a “Cancer on humanity” or blames semites for all the woes of the world. It’s always the Jews.

Jan 7, 2009 - 11:07 am 57. Marc:

You said
“the ethnic cleansing of Palestine” involved the founding fathers of Zionism exporting European fascism and creating a colonial hub in Palestine. With the little matter of the Holocaust being far less important than “Zionist land grabbing,” this screed informs us that the Zionists of 1947 were planning a “ruthless assault” on the Arab population of the region.
Why so sarcastic? You are not talking about an islamic pamphlet but about serious, thorough and detailed scientific work of several highly respected scholars. It is quite normal that things which come to light for the first time gain more interest that thimngs that are well known for a long period of time. No need to pretend anyone wants to neglect the holocaust, as you obviously try to suggest.

Jan 7, 2009 - 2:03 pm 58. Lilith:

Another View — sheesh, what an idiot! Where, in heaven’s name, do you get these fantasies from???

First of all semite refers to anyone who speaks a semitic language — it is a language group — not an ethnic group.

As for your “europ-jew” — Sorry, but DNA testing has proven that the majority of Jews (including the Sephardim)share unique DNA.

Get an education.

Jan 7, 2009 - 3:24 pm 59. Lilith:

Ian: Oh, please – giant yawn…..

Read this excerpt from the Oxford English dictionary:
“anti-Semitism : Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic”

Does that help? Understand now?

Jan 7, 2009 - 3:35 pm 60. Lilith:

…and before someone starts ranting that in one post I say “First of all semite refers to anyone who speaks a semitic language — it is a language group — not an ethnic group” and in the next post say antisemitism refers only to Jews…here’s why….

The term antisemitism has historically referred to prejudice against Jews alone.
It does not refer to prejudice against other ethnic groups who speak Semitic languages.

“Antisemitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews” (Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University)

Jan 7, 2009 - 3:46 pm 61. Another View:

Very simple Israel is a Apartheid state. Semitic in my reference means peoples of the region. From which the citizens and government(large majority) are not. Not Jew or Israeli.

Respect the people there before artificial British mandates. The European zionist have ethnically cleansed the area and still are. It is not about religion.

The fact is people were there. Europeans came and this is where we stand. Don’t believe your own bull sh!t.

Stop trying to mix up the peoples of the middle east. There were NO Europeans. You can say Arab,Persian,Asiatic, whatever. It was not the Russian,German,American,Polish, Khazarian impostors.

The Israelites came out of Egypt. Read the original text in Greek. If you can. LILITH!

Jan 7, 2009 - 4:19 pm 62. Peter the Sub Guy:

60. Another View wrote:
Very simple Israel is a Apartheid state.

Peter taunts: Hey Another (who still never responded to my proof of WMD’s in Iraq on another thread about a week or so ago), may I respectfully request you spend some time living in Israel, and then spend equal amounts of time living in Iran, North Korea, Libya, Somolia, Zimbabwe, and finally Gaza, and THEN tell me who the Apartheid states are!

Jan 7, 2009 - 4:43 pm 63. Peter the Sub Guy:

60. Another View wrote:
The Israelites came out of Egypt.

Peter responds: And you of anyone should not be telling others to read, because you obviously can’t, or you would have read Lilith’s post that said “Sorry, but DNA testing has proven that the majority of Jews (including the Sephardim)share unique DNA. Get an education.”

May I respectfully request you do so? Get an education, that is.

Jan 7, 2009 - 4:45 pm 64. Dr. Lumplevin:

The angry militant Leftists joining with supposed Islamic terrorist groups are completely justified in their protests against Israel. After all, the Jews’ right to defend their territory and existence does not supercede our right to feel offended, upset and self-righteous in our moral relativism and deliciously exhilarating self-loathing, does it?

Jan 7, 2009 - 6:12 pm 65. Lilith:

Another View: Why would the original text be in Greek, you cretin? What a moron.

Jan 7, 2009 - 6:44 pm 66. Peter the Sub Guy:

You notice that, once again, when Another View is confronted with facts, he flees like a scared child.

Jan 7, 2009 - 7:14 pm 67. TalkinKamel:

Sorry, Another View, but DNA don’t lie; Jews share a unique DNA, no matter where they come from. Despite the Diaspora, they are the same people.

And the meaning of Semetic, just as you reference it, isn’t enough. Unlike Humpty-Dumpty, words can’t just mean what you want them to. most people understand, and use, the term Semetic as a language classification, not a race.

Nobody can read the original Old Testament in Greek—-because it was written in Hebrew, not Greek. Hebrew, the language of the Jews. Not Greek. Not Polish. Not English, and not whatever it was the Khazars spoke; Hebrew. (Yes, later it was translated into Greek, but that wasn’t its original language).

And the Exodus story makes it very clear that the Jews were not the same people as the Egyptians, and that they didn’t originate in Egypt. You should read the story of Abraham, father of the Jewish people, and Isaac and Jacob. Sheesh, for someone who tells people they ought to read, and not believe bullshit, you certainly seem A. Ignorant, and B. Pretty full of the ol’ cow pucky yourself!

Just as an interesting side bit—the Copts seem to be, genetically, the people most closely related to the ancient Egyptians today. And they’re cruely oppressed by the Islamic Egyptians, kept in menial jobs and persecuted. Sounds like apartheit to me.

Jan 7, 2009 - 8:51 pm 68. TalkinKamel:

Lilith, I don’t think he knows what he’s talking about.

Something else—if Israel is a colony, what nation is it a colony of? Not Europe—Europe despises it. The British British actually tried to keep Jews out, after WWII. Russia disowned it, because it wasn’t socialist enough. It wasn’t founded by France, Italy, Spain or America—so what country is Israel supposedly a colony of? Khazar-whatsia? That country’s defunct (if it ever actually existed, at least in the form Jew-haters claim it did)—so, what country is Israel a colony of, the way the US was once a colony of Great Britain?

Jan 7, 2009 - 8:57 pm 69. JT:

HEY ANOTHER VIEW,WHY CAN’T YOU SEE THAT IN ISRAEL THE JEWS AND THE MILLION PLUS ARABS CO-EXIST AND THAT PEACE CAN ONLY BE ACHIEVED ONCE THESE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS LOVE THEIR CHILDREN MORE THAN THEY HATE THE JEWS. MOST OF THE PROBLEMS ON EARTH ARE MUSLIM RELATED…see south Thailand, the Phillipines, India, and Gaza among others.

Jan 8, 2009 - 1:39 am 70. Another View:

Point was most read the translated King James version. which is very different from the original. I cannot read Hebrew. But the Greek translation is the closet in context.

Where is your base DNA from?

The Semites that were there should not have been cleansed. Again simpletons it’s the European settlers.

Jan 8, 2009 - 4:07 am 71. Peter the Sub Guy:

Hey, Another View, still waiting to hear you dispute my proof on WMDs in Iraq. Or are you going to runaway again when confronted?

Jan 8, 2009 - 5:14 am 72. susan:

Another view, i take example from your neverending copy and paste job that you do with your idiotic posts to PASTE here one piece of wiseness that you missed entirely

“Just as an interesting side bit—the Copts seem to be, genetically, the people most closely related to the ancient Egyptians today. And they’re cruely oppressed by the Islamic Egyptians, kept in menial jobs and persecuted. Sounds like apartheit to me.”

Now repeat after me :

EVERY MUSLIM COUNTRY PRACTICE RELIGIOUS APARTHEID, in EVERY MUSLIM COUNTRY NON-MUSLIMS ARE TREATED LIKE SECOND CLASS HUMAN BEINGS and DEPRIVED OF EVERY DIGNITY. VERY SOON I WILL BE VICTIM OF THE MUSLIM RELIGIOUS APARTHEID EXACTLY LIKE I ACCUSE JEWS OF BEING AN APARTHEID STATE, BUT THEN I WILL BE STILL TO STUPID TO REALIZE IT

Repeat this a million times before getting back to us.

Jan 8, 2009 - 5:17 am 73. TalkinKamel:

Another View, as I pointed out, the Bible was originally written in Hebrew, not Greek. The Greeks were latecomers to the Middle-East. The Old Testament, and history of the Jews, is believed to have existed in oral form for about 800 years, before it was written down—in Hebrew. The Greek version may be closer to the original than the King James (hardly surprising), but the original was Hebrew, and it makes it clear that the Jews were not Egyptians.

I’ve heard about that DNA investigation from a number of sources. And you keep dodging my question as to why, if Israel is, indeed, a colony, what European or other nation are they a colony for?

As for as colonies go, the Arabs are colonizers; they originated in Saudi Arabia, and didn’t spread out from their home land until the 7th Century, when they began their conquests. Islam originated in Saudi Arabia, not Israel, Egypt, Lebanon or any other Middle-Eastern country. Before the Four Caliphs, and the Moslem invasions, the religions of the area were Christian, Jewish and pagan. And, as Susan points out, all Moslem nations practice religious apartheit. So, who are the colonizers here?

Jan 8, 2009 - 7:13 am 74. TalkinKamel:

Really, Another view, if you’re going to argue that European Jews don’t belong in the Middle-East, you’d have to concede that Moslems of Arab descent, or claiming Arab descent, don’t belong in most of the Middle-East either, because they originated in Saudi Arabia. And Moslems certainly do practice religious apartheit against groups like the Copts, who were certainly there before they came, and who have been reduced to Dhimmi status.

Jan 8, 2009 - 8:43 am 75. Lilith:

Hi, to TalkinKamel and others interested in Jewish DNA research. Following are a couple of sites (the first is more of an abstract of the second) that you might find interesting.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/01/16/1548268.htm?site=science&topic=latest
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jews-and-their-dna-12496?page=all
I think, too, that although conversations with Another View and his/her ilk might seem to be a waste of time, it gives us all a chance to put forward correct information for others who are reading through the comments.
Long life to Israel!

Jan 8, 2009 - 10:57 am 76. susan:

Talking camel, you are forgetting the loudest case of “occupation”.

Turkey is illegally occupying northern cyprus, this is NOT recognized by UN or any other country. It is an illegal occupation (that happened with progroms, ethnic cleansing etc) 34 years ago. Nobody says anything and nobody calls out turkey on its actions.

Give back Cyprus to Cypriots.

Jan 8, 2009 - 11:00 am 77. Lilith:

Susan, I have also read articles regarding the shared DNA of ancient Egyptians and contemporary Copts. This would make perfect sense since Islam is a relatively new interloper on the religious scene and Christianity was already an established religion when Islam emerged. Certainly, there appears to be little if any notable DNA connections between modern Egyptian Arabs and the Coptic people they are slowly, but surely, eliminating. It is a great tragedy, both personally and historically, that the Copts are so persecuted that their numbers have almost died out.

Jan 8, 2009 - 11:05 am 78. TalkinKamel:

Lillith, many thanks for the links! And, Susan, sorry about leaving out the Turks and Cypriots! Yes, this is an illegal occupation, and one that never gets mentioned (just as the Copts usually don’t get mentioned). However, we can all blubber endlessly about the Palestinians, and the Cruuuuuuelll Jewish occupation.

Islam is a relative newcomer in the Middle-East. Puff piece historical articles always gloss over this, and the fact that the Middle-East was actually well settled, by many different cultures: Coptic, Byzantine, Persian, Jewish, before the Moslems invaded. They always try to make it sound as if the entire area was a primitive morass of paganism until the cultured Arabs came to bestow upon it the glories of Islamic civilization. Not true, not true at all.

Not that any of this will convince someone like Another View, of course—this is someone who thinks the Bible was originally penned in Greek—but, yes, it’s good to take the opportunity to set the record straight whenever you can, because somebody’s got to do it, and our schools and media aren’t up to the job any more!

Long life to Israel!

Jan 8, 2009 - 12:04 pm 79. susan:

food for thought

the ancient greek writer aesop had this to write

521. HERMES AND THE ARABS
Perry 309 (Babrius 57)

Hermes filled a cart with lies and dishonesty and all sorts of wicked tricks, and he journeyed in this cart throughout the land, going hither and thither from one tribe to another, dispensing to each nation a small portion of his wares. When he reached the land of the Arabs, so the story goes, his cart suddenly broke down along the way and was stuck there. The Arabs seized the contents of the cart as if it were a merchant’s valuable cargo, stripping the cart bare and preventing Hermes from continuing on his journey, although there were still some people he had not yet visited. As a result, Arabs are liars and charlatans, as I myself have learned from experience. There is not a word of truth that springs from their lips.

now, aesop lived 6 centuries BC, so before christianity, before BUSH and since he wasn’t even a jew. Greece at that time was the peak of civilization. Not so much the other places.

IT is evident that arabs of arabia, even pre-islam weren’t the best people around.

Jan 8, 2009 - 3:04 pm 80. Gary Thorington:

Hey another view, you and those who call muslim terrorists freedom fighters really crack me up. Once a nation goes Muslim how much freedom do they have? I bet they have more freedom in Israel then they do in Saudi Arabia and other similar nations. Another thing, if the Bible is correct I don’t think you will see Israel being removed but it will be there till the last day. Another thing I imagine you agree with basic and equal rights for women and gays? Don’t expect to get much once your nation goes Islam, or have you thought about that?

Jan 8, 2009 - 7:14 pm 81. Peter the Sub Guy:

It never ceases to amaze how the looney liberal lefties, the same ones who demand women’s rights and gay rights and minority rights, will protest in support of the regimes and terror groups who would be the first to kill anyone advocating those same womens, gay and minority rights.

I really wish it were a requirement that, before you protest in favor of some group or nation, that you shouldbe required to live by that group or nation’s culture for at least a month first. Then we’ll see how many looney lefties are out there protesting.

Jan 9, 2009 - 5:17 am 82. Jonesy55:

“I used to go to England for work every year. I hated the place including London.
When I first went there in 1963 London was very safe. Every year that I returned crime was getting worse. Now parts of London are very dangerous for outsiders. The gangs have real automatic weapons while only certain police units are allowed to carry guns.
Over ten years ago I was startled to see a police women chasing a man with her handgun up in the deployed position, in Kensington in the middle of the day!”

lol, you are joking I hope (but do not expect).

Number of gun murders in the UK during 2007 = 51
Number of gun murders in the US during 2007 = 10,086

Jan 9, 2009 - 6:45 am 83. Jonesy55:

“And the recent attacks on synagogues in the UK and France?

Why are those going unreported?”

“Why are those going unreported? Because the world doesn’t care when Jewish people get attacked. But when any Jewish person does attack – it’s all over the news.”

“#5 Lisa
they don’t fit into the media’s talking points. One can’t report those kinds of incidents and still blame Jews for all the world’s problems.”

Interesting theories y’all. One slight flaw though is that these attacks have been reported widely.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5467624.ece

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23612225-details/Synagogue+set+alight+during+rise+in+anti-Semitic+attacks+in+London/article.do

http://www.times-series.co.uk/news/4032111.Anti_Semitic_attacks_fuelled_by_Gaza_conflict/

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Gaza-conflict—39being.4859190.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7813265.stm

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2112737.ece

From false premises, unsound conclusions will sprout.

Jan 9, 2009 - 7:03 am 84. TalkinKamel:

As far as statistics go, Britain isn’t a safe place to live anymore, and crime has skyrocketed, since the 60’s: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/14000-knife-victims-a-year-860857.html

The media is whomping up the Palestinians, and the attacks on Gaza, whereas it pretty much ignored the rocket attacks on Israel that lead up to Israel moving in on it. Every paper here on the west coast is covered with pics of wailing women in headscarves and articles about how the UN is demanding Israel stop killing civilians, all very pro Hamas. CNN has been biased in its reporting.

When Mumbai happened, the attacks on the Chabad house, and Hindus, were downplayed, and they tried to pass the whole thing off as the acts of a band of “militants”, until the facts started coming out, and they couldn’t hide the Islamic connection anymore. And they still downplay the awful treatment of the Chabad center people, and the hostages; for information about that, you have to go to the internet. So, yes, despite some coverage, the majority of attention is being given to Gaza.

Jan 9, 2009 - 8:28 am 85. TalkinKamel:

Here’s another story I wish the media would spread more widely: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3645719,00.html

Jan 9, 2009 - 8:33 am 86. TalkinKamel:

And another important story that’s gotten scumbled away among reports on civilian casualties in Gaza, Wailing women pictures, UN puff pieces and Lindsey Lohan’s drug rehab: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123128812156759281.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

Jan 9, 2009 - 8:36 am 87. Rob:

Jewish lands in the Israel region predate recorded history. Islamic (Palestinian) occupation came much later. Read your history. Why is no one worked up about the fate of a much larger group displaced, brutally murdered etc. … the Hindus who lived in the area of todays Pakistan …. not a peep there…. ideologues, ignorant faddists who march to the beat of delusional idealist hypocrisy.

Jan 9, 2009 - 11:39 am 88. susan:

jonesy it is evident that you are in denial as your prime minister chamberlain was with hitler.

The attacks on synagogues are downplayed but they are not sufficiently condemned by the local (coward) population.

The attacks on mosques get first pages for days.

you are a dhimmi. you should be ashamed of yourself. What happens now in israel is nothing compared to what will happen in the uk, but guess what? once the cowards of europe were the french, now the brits beats them in this regard, you will all escape in australia or usa.

Jan 9, 2009 - 11:53 am 89. TalkinKamel:

Assuming Australia or the US will let them in. In his book, “Caliphate”, author Tom Kratman posits the question of whether or not America should allow Europeans who supported multiculturalism and Islam, while condemning America and Israel, sanctuary in America when things go bad in Europe?

His point was that their knee-jerk support for Islam (and Marxism) lost these people their own countries, and could infect America (who has enough problem with that sort of thinking already), weakening it so that it goes the same way. (As it still might).

I don’t know that I agree with him, but it deserves consideration. Maybe realizing that in a new Caliphate there might not be sanctuary for anybody might cut back on much of the knee-jerk support for Hamas, and the Jihad.

Jan 9, 2009 - 12:35 pm 90. TalkinKamel:

Certainly, people like Jonsey55 seem deeply in denial. If the current spate of violent, pro-Gaza demonstrations, obviously designed to bring the conflict into Europe and the US don’t convince them there’s a problem, nothing will. One can well imagine people like this lecturing us about our “unsound conclusions”, even as we’re fighting, yet again, to prop up the Gates of Vienna (Meaning “gates” and “Vienna” figuratively, not literally).

Jan 9, 2009 - 12:39 pm 91. TalkinKamel:

And the articles Jonesey links to are NOT reassuring! Some of them are alright, but some manage to subtly blame the anti-semetic acts on the fighting in Gaza (not Hamas, or Moslem attitudes towards Jews; the last article, the one from The Sun, actually quotes Moslems threatening “backlash”, and pretty much blames the anti-semetic attacks on frustration over Gaza.

Jan 9, 2009 - 12:48 pm 92. TalkinKamel:

Compare those articles with this: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/tale+of+a+young+palestinians+death/2

(There’s been some controversy, by the way, that this story might have some holes in it. Whatever, fact is, Palestinian woes are described far more dramatically, and with much more human interest thrown in, than Jewish ones).

Jan 9, 2009 - 1:01 pm 93. Peter the Sub Guy:

87. Rob asks:
Why is no one worked up about the fate of a much larger group displaced, brutally murdered etc. … the Hindus who lived in the area of todays Pakistan …. not a peep there….

Peter responds: Because Hindus are not Muslims, and therefore can’t be victims. I’m surprised you didn’t realize that.

What surprises me is how no one is complaining about how the poor Muslims were unfairly driven out of what is now modern India.

Jan 9, 2009 - 2:42 pm 94. jonesy55:

Peter, nobody is talking about the hindus driven out of Pakistan not because ‘hindus cannot be victims, only muslims can’ as after all, you point out yourself, nobody is talking about the muslims driven the other way either.

The reason that it is not talked about is that the events of 60 years ago there do not carry over into the modern world to anything like the same degree as the events in Israel/Palestine.

Susan, do you have any examples of ‘attacks on mosques being on the front pages for days’? I can’t say that i’ve seen this, indeed many islamophobic attacks also get downplayed, such as this desecration of the graves of Muslim war veterans in France.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/revolting-attack-on-muslim-war-graves-20081209-6u65.html

The fact is that some kids throwing stones through the windows of a place of worship or chanting offensive slogans in a fast food restaurant is never going to displace a major military conflict in the middle east from the front pages.

The unfortunate fact is that at times of heightened tension, tempers sometimes flare. Police security at synagogues has been stepped up as previous Israeli military operations against the palestinians have led to anti-semitic attacks just as 9/11 and the London bombings led to attacks on innocent muslims.

Jan 10, 2009 - 12:21 am 95. susan:

jonesy, we are not talking about france now, so do not move the attention

the title says “hatred in trafalgar square” not “nearby the tour eiffel”.

One british guy went to jail because he threw a pork head inside a mosque, another one again went to jail beacuse he dared to say to a bunch of muslims “go back to your land”.

Nobody went to jail among the muslims with ads like “behead the queen, behead who insult islam”.

try to spin this.

the fact is that after you lost your empire, you need a weak target to lash out your rage, and you became a bunch of sad and pathetic antisemites.

Jan 10, 2009 - 5:25 am 96. Peter the Sub Guy:

94. jonesy55 wrote:
Peter, nobody is talking about the hindus driven out of Pakistan not because ‘hindus cannot be victims, only muslims can’ as after all, you point out yourself, nobody is talking about the muslims driven the other way either.

Peter replies: You need to learn the subtle art of sarcasm, jonesy55.

Jan 10, 2009 - 7:11 am 97. susan:

“The reason that it is not talked about is that the events of 60 years ago there do not carry over into the modern world to anything like the same degree as the events in Israel/Palestine. ”

the muslims drove away all the christians in kosovo, very recently, yet nobody is concerned beside Russia.

The muslims drove out all the christians from norther cyprus, ILLEGALLY. notice jonesy, I bet you are one of the many whiners calling the iraq invasion an “illegal war”, do you have the balls to call the turkish invasion of cyprus and subsequential occupation ILLEGAL too? after all, nobody beside turkey recognizes norther cyprus, it is not recognized by UN too, or you will give free pass to turkey because you vacation in some club mediterranee there?

Why nobody is rallying outside the turkysh embassy in london? the turkish one is an illegal occupation.

Jan 10, 2009 - 7:16 am 98. TalkinKamel:

jonsey, Hindu/Pakistan tensions are still affecting us today, as witness Pakistan’s recent sponsoring of the Mumbai killings. The events of 60 years ago are carrying into the modern world; the media just isn’t as interested in following them in Pakistan, Kashmir, etc., because no Jews are involved.

As Susan points out, the Moslems drove out all the Christians in Kosovo, very recently. They are, at the moment, driving out Christians in Iraq and they’ve butchered Christian and animist Africans in Darfur. None of these stories get covered much by the media, certainly not with the gusto that they follow events in Gaza. And yet these stories are big, you can’t say they’re not important.

And, of course, the illegal Turkish occupation in Cypress continues.

Fact is, in today’s Britian, if some “kids’” tempers flared, and they started throwing rocks through a mosque window, or chanting “Kill the Moslems!” in a Macdonald’s, they’d be hauled off to jail for thought crimes. Yet Moslems threaten people, and hurl insults, all the time, and never get charged with anything. Now why is that?

Jan 10, 2009 - 7:36 am 99. TalkinKamel:

Islamists are fighting in the Philippines, in Indonesia, India, Maylasia, Nigeria, Chechnya, yet it’s the Middle-East that always gets all the attention, and the “plight” of the Palestinians that gets the majority of attention.

Jan 10, 2009 - 7:40 am 100. TalkinKamel:

Here’s an article about jihad in the Philippines. Please note the throw-away line about half a million people being displaced by Islamic seperatists; bet you haven’t heard much about that in Western news: http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20090108/ACQDJON200901080454DOWJONES

Jan 10, 2009 - 8:05 am 101. TalkinKamel:

Link didn’t work. Hope this one’s better! http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/024326.php#comments

Jan 10, 2009 - 8:07 am 102. jonesy55:

“jonesy, we are not talking about france now, so do not move the attention

the title says “hatred in trafalgar square” not “nearby the tour eiffel”.”

lol, Susan, these graves are actually not that far from London at all.

But anyway, neither are we talking about kosovo or Cyprus but it doesn’t stop you deflecting attention when it suits you does it?

The point still stands that the media was not very interested at all in this hate crime while similar crimes against jewish cemeteries got much more attention. You can spin anything if you want to Susan, you are quite practiced at it (if not yet adept)

Jan 10, 2009 - 10:20 am 103. jonesy55:

btw, Still waiting for evidence of mosque attacks ‘getting front page coverage for days’

I suspect I will be waiting some time.

Jan 10, 2009 - 10:21 am 104. jonesy55:

“the fact is that after you lost your empire, you need a weak target to lash out your rage, and you became a bunch of sad and pathetic antisemites.”

Even by your standards Susan this nonsensical conjecture makes for a very weak argument. It just shows that your knowledge of this country and society is very superficial and limited.

Jan 10, 2009 - 10:24 am 105. jonesy55:

“do you have the balls to call the turkish invasion of cyprus and subsequential occupation ILLEGAL too? after all, nobody beside turkey recognizes norther cyprus, it is not recognized by UN too, or you will give free pass to turkey because you vacation in some club mediterranee there?”

No problem, the TRNC is an illegal state, I don’t see any controversy saying this.

Jan 10, 2009 - 10:27 am 106. TalkinKamel:

Well, that’s awfully big of you, jonesy55, conceding that the TRNC is an illegal state.

What people have been saying here is that, compared to the alleged woes of the Palestinians, crimes against Jews, and Filipinos, and Darfurians, Cyrpriots and just about everybody else gets cold-shouldered by the media—or, if printed at all, without the front-page, heartrending human interest stuff that always gets put into articles about Gaza, and Palestinian casualties.

Posters have also pointed out that Moslems at these “protests” have been extremely aggressive, and saying things that, if they were anything other than Moslems, would certainly get them arrested and hauled off under Britain’s hate-speech laws.

Jan 10, 2009 - 12:57 pm 107. jonesy55:

TalkinKamel,

Actually I doubt it, as the writer of the piece herself says, youths who went too far with violence and threats got booked by the police, many others are no doubt under surveillance by the intelligence services and are monitored so that they can reveal contacts, plots etc which would not happen if they were just arrested and locked up.

The reasons that the western media concentrate more on Israel rather than conflicts involving muslims vs others in Mindanao or Gujarat or Chechnya is the same reason that so much attention was paid to the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Even though in terms of sheer numbers killed or absolute level of repression it was eclipsed by many other regimes of the same era – Mao’s China; Pol Pot’s Cambodia; Idi Amin’s Uganda etc, westerners and the western media were incensed to a far greater degree by South Africa because the repression, injustice and violence was carried out by people who claimed the same judeo-christian heritage as us, the same culture of greece and rome, the renaissance, the enlightenment and western democracy. In other words, westerners felt that the wrongs were carried out in their name and in the name of their culture. Westerners today feel the same about Israel.

Yes, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Zimbabwe and Iran are far more repressive and violent than Israel but they are the ‘other’, we are not responsible for them, they are not ‘us’ like Israel is.

In any case, the sufferings of the Darfurians have not exactly been hidden, everybody from the mainstream press to hollywood celebs have taken up the cause (not that hollywood celebs will make any difference). I’ve seen and read multiple in-depth reports and dozens of heart-rending stories on the bombings, village burnings and brutality going on there as will anybody else who pays attention to the news.

Here’s an example of a darfur related front page from a UK newspaper, there have been many others, maybe not taking up the whole page like this but the story is very well known.

http://platform.blogs.com/passionofthepresent/images/2008/02/14/20080214_p1_big.jpg

I would also disagree that ‘anybody else would be hauled off under hate-speech laws’, there are numerous demonstrations in this country that cause offence and nobody is arrested, i’m sure you will come up with an example to the contrary but all that proves is that there are exceptions. If everybody who uttered repulsive comments was arrested, 10% of the crowd at each weekend’s football fixtures would be in prison each saturday night, clearly that is not the case.

Jan 10, 2009 - 2:08 pm 108. TalkinKamel:

How are we responsible for Israel? Why are Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc., “the other?” Saudi Arabia provides a great deal of oil to Europe and the West, and has (in my opinion, far too many) financial ties that go very deeply into America the American government, and business; why are we not responsible for that? It’s western expertise that helps these guys get their oil out of the ground in the first place, and provides their obscenely large incomes, which they’ve used to fund Madrassas, and Wahabi mosques? How is that “other”? How is the west, to some extent, not responsible for this?

So, basically what you’re saying is that we should punish our allies when they don’t live up to our Judeo-Christian standards (standards, by the way, which the increasingly secular, and let’s-just-forget-about-that-history-stuff west is dropping) but ignore any dangers and threats from countries such as Iran (working on getting nukes) Korea (got nukes) and the rest, because they don’t have a Greek heritage, or Judeo-Christian values? So, because we “feel” that wrongs are being carried out in our name, it’s okay to obsess about, say, Israel, than it is to focus on the Gazans, or evils in the Moslem world, and that the media’s just doing its job when it focuses so heavily on Gaza?

Honestly, if you’re going to play the ol’ Judeo-Christian card, shouldn’t it be Israel who’se responsible for the rest of us, since both Judaism and Christianity originated there? And, as for Greece—remember that illegal Turkish occupation? Yet nobody, including all those people who care so about our heritage, seem upset about that.

Just as an aside, Greece, Rome, the enlightenment and the Renaissance, while they produced some wonderful things, were also times of great cruelty, and human suffering; let’s get real here, and not pat ourselves on the back too hard for them. Furthermore, the west, with its obsession with Marxism, and being properly multi-cultural, is fast abandoning the good things they did give us, and betraying them by idolizing dictators and Islamic thugs, while condemning allies who, supposedly, share more ot its values.

And, anyway, I don’t see how Britain is responsible for Israel. It resisted its founding, and tried to keep it from becoming a nation, and sided with the Arabs when it wanted independece.

The PLO has been supported for years by European and American funds, and Western politicians who keep pushing Israel into accepting idiot peace plans, and giving up more land. How can we not be responsible for this, and how is this upholding our culture?

Darfur gets attention because the jet set and Hollywood elite have adopted it as a pet cause, just as they have Tibet. They’re not serious about helping it, and, furthermore, I haven’t heard any accounts of rioting on its behalf, worldwide demonstrations or Starbucks being trashed on its behalf. Darfur/Tibet breat-beating is a game of the elites, to make themselves feel good; they’re not going to actually do anything about it. The Gaza protesters are doing something, and they’re doing it as part of the worldwide jihad, which the papers downplay.

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:11 am 109. TalkinKamel:

As for this. . . when you’ve got around 100,000 people “demonstrating”, I’d say it’s no longer a protest—it’s a battle! And all these people are burning things, getting rowdy, threatening by-standers, and there are only three arrests? That really doesn’t sound like Britain’s taking this seriously. Of course, neither is anybody else. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111203/Protesters-clash-police-100-000-strong-London-Gaza-de

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:16 am 110. jonesy55:

I’d take that 100,000 figure with a huge bucket of salt, demo organisers are always trying to make it sound like they have more support than they actually do, police estimates for the numbers attending are much lower.

Sheer numbers in any case don’t make it a battle, most people there were not involved in any violence, if they were and if it was a battle we would have seen widespread damage and injury or even loss of life. Carol Gould herself was obviously not hiding the fact that she opposed the marchers but wasn’t injured in any way. It seems that she felt intimidated by a big guy talking loudly at her but these debates often get heated.

I don’t see why we should ban the marchers, let them demonstrate, let them have their say, if anybody gets violent arrest them and leave the others.

I witnessed the equivalent protest in birmingham first hand as I work in the city, there were about 200 mostly palestinian people protesting from a metro region with a population of around 4m (if we count using US standards for comparison), of which a few hundred thousand are muslims. No violence, just some chanting, some speeches and some bemused onlookers. It’s easy to be misled as to the scale and intensity of what happened if you only read the press, the reality is often different.

Jan 12, 2009 - 3:31 am 111. TalkinKamel:

Uh huh, just keep telling yourself everything’s okay, jonsey. Nothing’s wrong, everything’s fine here. . .

Jan 12, 2009 - 6:20 am 112. susan:

TalkinKamel, here is some food for thought

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/blair-victorious-in-battle-over-glorification-of-terrorism-466748.html

Apparently loser tony blair managed to do one good thing in 2006. He passed a law banning the “glorification” of terrorism. The vote came after the Prime Minister launched an impassioned defence of the “glorification” ban, insisting it was essential to combat militant preachers and terrorist sympathisers.

So what jossie chamberlain wants to protect, is actually against the law. He obviously already thinks under sharia law, not western law.

So, jossie, true that it won’t take long til sharia law comes to the shores but for now most of those marches, even when they do not escalate in violence (and they DO: a starbucks burned and police officers sent to hospital) they are still illegal.

Is hamas a terrorist organization? yes, well any pro hamas march is a glorification of terrorism.

But TalkinCamel, by allah, who are we to get in the way of sharia?

Maybe jonesy is cannot wait to be legitimized to beat up his wife.

Jan 12, 2009 - 6:50 am 113. TalkinKamel:

Yup, everything’s fine! Nothing to worry about here! http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjkwNjVlNmE5MWUyOTVhMWIyODkzNWNlZGM1YjU2Zjc=

Jan 12, 2009 - 6:55 am 114. jonesy55:

“Uh huh, just keep telling yourself everything’s okay, jonsey. Nothing’s wrong, everything’s fine here. . .”

A straw man argument if ever I saw one, I have never claimed that everything is fine, I merely don’t subscribe to the apocalyptic visions, the inevitable war of civilisations theories and cries for blood that people like Susan do.

Problems always exist in any society but they can be resolved without calling on people to denounce their neighbours simply for their religion, regardless of any personal guilt and trying to instigate civil conflict.

Jan 12, 2009 - 8:17 am 115. jonesy55:

and Susan, I am generally against the restrictions on civil liberties imposed by this labour government, this kind of law is dangerous and open to abuse.

I very much doubt that this law means that any protest against israeli actions is now illegal, but if it is would you see this as a positive thing?

Jan 12, 2009 - 8:19 am 116. TalkinKamel:

And some more. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/01/punk-jihad-and.html

Jan 12, 2009 - 9:13 am 117. susan:

don’t worry jonesy, your muslim friends even with this law can go on calling for genocide of the jews and not being held accountable for it. It is well know that in the UK there is one law for the muslims and another for the other peasants.

So don’t worry, antisemitism can freely spread in your island. Keep up the good work and keep up the flag of islamic supremacism. I am sure you will be rewarded as a sort of “uncle tom” of the muslim persuasion.

Jan 12, 2009 - 9:16 am 118. susan:

talkng camel, please come here
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-paris-pro-palestine-demos-were-pro-hamas/

scroll down, I collected some info on dhimmitude still on nowadays including the payment of the jizya.

Jan 12, 2009 - 9:20 am 119. TalkinKamel:

jonsey, where have I called upon anybody to denounce their neighbors, “simply for their religion”? Where has anybody else here done that? Can you provide a quote?

At any rate, condemning people for their religion isn’t something I subscribe to, but I also don’t like it when various groups try to hide violence and ethnic and/or anti-semetic hide under “freedom of speech” or “peaceful protests”, especially in this case, where all these marches and confrontations seem designed to bring Gaza to the rest of the world.

As for instigating civil conflict, the whole point of this thread, and many of the comments, is that civil conflict is already being instigating, by the jihad supporters. This is going beyond mere peaceful protesting to attacks on synagogues and counter-protesters.

Jan 12, 2009 - 9:20 am 120. TalkinKamel:

Susan, you raise some very good points: if glorifying terrorism is against the law in the UK, why aren’t Hamas supporters being hauled into jail? Okay, so the law may be dangerous, and open to abuse, but it’s still the law, so how come Moslem protesters are allowed to flaunt it, and get away scot free?

Also, freedom of speech was never intended to cover attacks on officers of the law, Starbucks, smashing windows or threatening those who disagree with you. Civil liberties doesn’t mean anything goes, as long you as claim you’re protesting something. It was never intended to excuse, or protect, actual criminal acts.

Maybe jonesey wants sharia, or maybe he just doesn’t want to see that civil conflict has already been instigated—to the tune of around 1 million British pounds! That’s some pretty expensive support for pro-Gaza marches!

Jan 12, 2009 - 9:28 am 121. TalkinKamel:

And still more. Really, this sounds less and less like a protest, or civil liberties, and more like war: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024365.php#comments

Jan 12, 2009 - 10:59 am 122. TalkinKamel:

Not that Britain can’t act pretty quickly when some groups are offended: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

Jan 12, 2009 - 11:11 am 123. Roland Semaarn:

This war is not about the jews or the isreali’s, its about the Palestinians waking up and learming to live with others.I love the Jews,I dont think I am suppose to though? I am a lebanese Man who was raised in a Jewish suburb, and as far as I am concernd, Now half Jewish.(the elders would turn in there grave) I hate all fanaticals, if all the religons all over the world can co inhabitat, why cant the moslems. and its MERRY Christmas, NOT BLOODY HAPPY HOLIDAYS,
.

Jan 13, 2009 - 4:38 am 124. TalkinKamel:

You show more sense than many of our supposedly intelligent elites, Roland.

Jan 13, 2009 - 6:54 am 125. TalkinKamel:

And some more fun stuff from the UK: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/01/uk-blood-libel-horror-jews-eating-dead-babies.

Jan 13, 2009 - 7:18 am 126. TalkinKamel:

Thank you, Susan, I will come take a look at it.

Jan 13, 2009 - 11:27 am 127. Melvin Sherwood:

What lesson(s) will the Brits and the Europeans learn if Israel has been destroyed and they, themselves, are either engaged in civil war against their new Islamic overlords or are living in submission and dhimmitude?
The Brits may have, indeed, lost all their best minds in WWI,but they were really always rather plodding, thick and nasty. Europe is a diseased old whore; syphlitic, vile,lacking a heart and with no future. Bye-bye.

Feb 10, 2009 - 9:28 pm