Pajamas Media

70 Comments

1. ashok:

This account of how people just flat-out refuse to report the facts – do their jobs – is quite chilling.

Your comment -

“Ultimately, people will believe what they want to believe about who died in Gaza, and how they died…. But the media has a responsibility to give the same prominence to the claims of the Israeli government as it does to the claims of terrorist propagandists, and to report on accounts, such as Lorenzo Cremonesi’s, that run counter to the established narrative.”

- requires further comment, inasmuch as we live in the age of Jon Stewart and “The Daily Show,” who have convinced journalists that everything is spin, and that right-wing interests of corporations, nation-states, and institutions that guard morality are all allied in destroying the voice of the people through spin, that voice which hates war and loves tolerance and loves minorities and the environment and blah blah.

In order to get objectivity back, one has to value it. That’s a matter of education on the part of consumers of media just as much as it is of creators of media. And if we’ve learned one thing from the recent election of President Obama, there is a “right” to be ignorant, to cast one’s vote based on how one feels rather than cite specific complaints or goals.

Objectivity is a pretty hard concept for most people to value. It is true no one wants to be lied to, but then again, it’s also true that a lot of people could care less what the truth is.

Jan 25, 2009 - 12:13 am 2. Marc Malone:

It’s funny how anti-Semites like to go on about the Jews controlling the world, but those same Jews can’t get a fair shake from the press. If they actually controlled things, then you wouldn’t hear boo about the Jews.

Jan 25, 2009 - 12:38 am 3. Marc Malone:

Oh, and what’s a “Gazan”? Is that from the tribe of Gozar the Carpathian?

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:12 am 4. ic:

“Hamas vastly inflated the number of civilian dead”

So what’s new? Are you going to tell us next that the MSM knew about it and reported their number anyway to protect access?

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:45 am 5. SAF:

Marc Malone: Good point about the press and the Jews.

It seems to be the hallmark of liberalism and the politically correct that the obvious should be ignored.

Jan 25, 2009 - 6:24 am 6. Battlecat:

Who cares how many Palestinians die? They strap bombs onto their own children. If they have such depraved contempt for their own lives, then why should I value them?

Jan 25, 2009 - 6:59 am 7. Maverick:

Hamas only does what they can get away with. If they use the media, the media allows it. If Hamas uses the legitimacy of the United Nations and the International Red Cross to get Israel condemned by the world, these organizations are allowing it to happen. After every attack by Israel, the usual suspects shows up with humanitarian aid for Hamas reporting the same thing time and time again. They do nothing but focus on the death of civilians. Before Israel decides to retaliate against the missile attacks, we don’t see the United Nations or the International Red Cross or the same media that pops up to report the death of civilians at the hands of Israel, with Hamas warning them about the possibility of civilian deaths.

Jan 25, 2009 - 7:30 am 8. Bill Menge:

I, too, am still trying to find the Jewish-controlled press. I wish someone would be specific. CNN=Time Warner=Public Compoany…I don’t know who runs them now, but it was a Black man until very recently; ABC=Disney; NBC=GE; I’ll give you CBS because Viacom is owned by a nominally Jewish man; Fox=Murdoch; NYTimes=Maybe; Hearst Corporation=?; Clear Channel Radio=Christian People in San Antonio; and nobody runs the internet! Where are all the Jews? Maybe, as the Koran says, they are behind the trees waiting to be killed.

One more thought: since the Koran cries out the blessings of martyrdom, and the joys of meeting Allah in Paradise with all the virgins and other heavenly things…aren’t the Israelis doing them all a solid by allowing their journeys to paradise? Why would the Muslims complain about dying doing their Jihad thing? Isn’t it a good thing? Don’t they owe the Israelis a debt of gratitude for hastening that journey home?

Jan 25, 2009 - 7:50 am 9. Craig:

“Clearly the numbers don’t add up, so who should we believe?”

Liberals have always been poor at math and economics. This is not a revelation. You need to rephrase the statement in the form of sarcasm:

Clearly the numbers add up, 2 + 2 does = 5.

Jan 25, 2009 - 8:53 am 10. Joe Bison:

The propaganda of civilian deaths has important
use. First world opinion forces a cease and
desist when the terrorist is losing. Second
the Israelis become more timid the next time
and there will always be a next time. Third
it puts doubts in the mind of people who are
pro-Israeli or neutral. They may not believe
the more extravagant numbers but think where
there is smoke there is fire.

Why would the self-loathing of western society
not extend to Israel? We are divided and
doubtful while the other guys are 100% sure
of themselves. The western media and academics
reinforce their beliefs and motivation. The
more candid or informed ones will admit the
propaganda is BS, but it is justified by
their being right. Ultimate victory excuses
little lies told during war.

Jan 25, 2009 - 9:24 am 11. The Historian:

POST BUSH: IS ISRAEL ALONE?
The timing of the Gaza intrusion was not a coincidence. What is the future of the American-Israeli alliance?

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/01/post-bush-is-israel-alone.html

Jan 25, 2009 - 9:43 am 12. Shef Rogers:

What would you consider a reasonable number of dead children?

Jan 25, 2009 - 10:04 am 13. Oscar the Grump:

Everything the Arabs state is always with inflated figures. Their original numbers of Palestinian refugee in 1949 included anyone who had left “Palestine” three years prior. (See Joan Peters book From Time Immorial) It later included anyone who wanted to sign up for the free handout the UN was supplying. Jenin was a more recent example and the Hezbollah war even more recent. There is no question Hamas inflated its numbers. Some of the casualties were Fatah members and families which were murdered by Hamas. BBC has become the el-Jazerra of the western world in its reporting. They either put a spin on everything they report or allow it. The best example was of a child who had been shot up close by the IDF. They made the mistake of showing the world an x-ray of the child’s head. In plain vision was a bullet lodged in the brain. The bullet was the wrong caliber, it was from an AK47 round.

Jan 25, 2009 - 10:40 am 14. SAF:

Oscar the Grump:

Please don’t confuse liberals with the facts. They will oppose anything Israel ever does.

Jan 25, 2009 - 10:51 am 15. barry 0351:

SEVENTYZILLION GAZAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN DIED BUT ONLY ONE HAMAS “MILITANT” WHO STEPPED OUT TO SHAT AND THE HOGS ATE HIM!
Who cares one way or the other.

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:00 am 16. Oscar the Grump:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831588.stm
Has the picture of the x-ray used in the report.

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:06 am 17. jm:

“What would you consider a reasonable number of dead children?”

well, one ! because, if the dead infant paraded were an israeli, it would take exactly half a second for the un, ngo’s, bbc etc. to condemn the parading of dead children in front of the tv-cameras.
if the child were an arab, it would take the same amount of time for the said organizations to condemn the israelis for massacring arab children at wanton.
if the poor child were a palestinian, she would be killed by hamas in advance, to be pictured and paraded in front of their own media for the distribution for the blood-thirsty international media, that would advance it’s own aims in the name of the murdered child, to condemn and to curse the jews.

so, because only one of each is needed for public relation needs, how many times, according to you yourself, one is to be multiplied, to satisfy the urge for the concept of ” reasonable ” ?.

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:15 am 18. mountainaires:

Israel’s Lies
Henry Siegman
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/sieg01_.html

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:51 am 19. mountainaires:

The Palestinian death toll after three weeks of Israel’s war was 1,285, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, or 1,268, according to the al-Mezan Human Rights Centre. Among those dead were at least 280 children.

The impact will be felt by many more for years to come. Among the more than 4,000 people injured more than a quarter were children, some left with severe disabilities. The Gaza Community Health Programme estimates that half Gaza’s children – around 350,000 – will develop some form of post-traumatic stress disorder.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2009/jan/23/gaza-middleeast?picture=342225626

http://www.btselem.org/English/

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:58 am 20. pat:

Sadly many people in the UK watch or read the BBC and just go along with their reporting,
These are the kind of people who will believe anything they are told. They have no idea on what the truth is, they have no thoughts of partiality what so ever.
They read or watch the BBC and then moan about it on websites even sport or cooking websites are infested with these people who just go along with it.
If you ever dare to question the BBC to them and ask them where did they get their numbers from or well these reports here are different to the BBC they just go hopping mad.
What is further more is that it doesn’t help when there will be radical bigoted posters on the same site stirring the pot.

Many on the left and certainly many Muslims I have spoken to on websites are using this crisis for their own anti Semitic agenda.
The left wing lunatics and many Muslims are beyond reasoning with, they are full of hatred who jump up as soon as a report comes out.
If the report is for their own bigoted view then they are happy and then they go and spread this news but if it is against their radical nutty bigoted view then they get their hateful message out by telling their ignorant and bigoted friends to contact the reporter.
In the UK Muslims and the radical bigoted anti Semitic left are shouting the holocaust wasn’t enough or make more ovens for the Jews.

Moderators of these sites on many occasions just ignore the open bigotry and anti Semitic posting because they actually believe in it yet are quick to condemn any kind of post which goes against the BBC, the Left wing or Muslims.
To them is is hey OK to be bigoted towards Jews, Christians, Israeli’s or Americans.
Sad as this situation is the media are not helping but making it worse by playing right into the hands of Hamas.
I will never forget how a BBC reporter was crying at Arafat’s funeral and saying how he was a great man, so much of not being biased .
The left are always quick to shout you must watch FOX news or Sky TV . It is their way of making someone feel ashamed and making them shut up. Well that tactic has been used for so long now that people are waking up I just hope enough people in the UK wake up to it as well.
The disgusting posts on certain websites about Jews right now is awful and should be deleted but I will not hold my breath so long as the BBC reports and the ignorant just follow not thinking to ask questions and view other media outlets contary to the BBC

Jan 25, 2009 - 12:09 pm 21. pat:

mountain
what was the point of putting those left wing links up with them reporting on something which is not fact?

Jan 25, 2009 - 12:15 pm 22. Alex:

So since Israel is going to be condemned for wantonly killing Palestinians no matter how hard she tries to avoid it, why bother? In other words, if Israel is going to be condemned for using Russian style tactics when she in fact does not, why not go ahead and use those tactics since they work far better than what she (and the US) have been doing.

Jan 25, 2009 - 12:59 pm 23. SAF:

In one way the Palestinians are the most honest people in the world. Certainly Hamas makes no pretext about wanting Israel destroyed. They won’t even lie about it to secure a false peace while they re-arm and get ready for the next battle. They would rather suffer in squalor than lie about wanting to live in peace with Israel as a neighbor. They are so devoted to this they will even sacrifice their children to the cause.

Lying about the number of dead is minor compared to not wavering from the truth of their final goals. The Europeans aren’t stupid. They are aligned with the same goals so it really doesn’t matter to them what Hamas does or publishes as long as it is anti Israel.

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:06 pm 24. pat:

Many times the left and the Muslims say well Israel is doing mass slaughter they are killing indiscriminately, but if you say that Israel could easily flatten that area and that Hamas is using innocent people as human shields then they just give a blank look then say well the BBC are saying they are.
IDIOTS it is that sort of ignorance what makes us vulnerable over the next 4 years

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:10 pm 25. Shef Rogers:

Arabs are “Semitic.” If you want to see anti-Semitism in action…well actually, you’re already at one of its home bases.

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:13 pm 26. Mike McNally:

Good point Alex. As Bart Simpson said when he tricked his way into a school for gifted children, and was asked for an example of a paradox: “You’re damned if you do, and you’re damned if you don’t.”

By way of an update, I was watching BBC news this morning (I don’t have many options here in the UK), and they had a reporter on live from Gaza. Behind him was a vista of undamaged white tower blocks and buildings of all sizes, none of which had so much as a scratch on them. As in Lebanon in 2006, I suspect that the damage, while certainly bad, was confined to several areas where the terrorists were most active, and much of Gaza escaped unscathed. Of course the media will only show continuously looping footage of a selection of badly damaged areas, creating that most of Gaza has be laid waste.

Also, I was just sent an excellent piece on the conflict from Middle East Forum:

http://www.meforum.org/article/2056

Thanks for the comments. And ‘mountainaires’, do you ever think that Gazan children might be traumatised by watching Hamas and Fatah thugs murdering each other? Or by watching kid’s TV shows that glorify death? Or by watching their big brothers and sisters strapping on bomb-belts and going off to sacrifice themselves? Arab and muslim extremists need no help from anyone to traumatise their kids. They’ve been doing it for over 70 years.

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:39 pm 27. Marc Malone:

#19 mountainaires – So tell me, how many of those dead were caused by Israeel, and how many by Hamas? Your numbers mean nothing. What were the children doing in the battle area, anyway? Israel called the civilians and warned them to get out. Why didn’t they get out. Oh, they did, and took shelter in off limits targets like schools. But, then Hamas chose those locales for their artillery. Why no widespread condemnation of Hamas for these obvious war crimes? It was Hamas who put those children in danger, not Israel.

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:49 pm 28. Oscar the Grump:

Hey mountainerrors where have you been hiding. I’ve really missed you.

B’Tselem is one of the most qouted news sources and statistic sources in the world. It is run by self hating Jews and is absolutely left wing oriented. Throughout the world the most Jew hating, anti-Israeli sources quote their poison. Stories told are often without backing and statistics employ redundant counting methods. Its always Arab slanted. After all, if its written by a Jew it must be true. Mountainerrors loves to quote them.

Mountainerrors, how many of those children killed were at the hands of Hamas. They butchered whole Fatah families. There are video tapes of what they did to Fatah. Why don’t you hyperlink to them?

B’Tselem is a testament to the fact Israel is a democracy. Dissention is allowed even if it is painful and often untrue. Unfortunately nothing like this is allowed in the Arab world. There you will never get another point of view.

Mountainerrors you miss the main point, none of this had to happen at all. All Hamas had to do was not fire rockets into Israel. Even if Israel is “evil” why provide such a pretext? Note however, you didn’t see Israel randomly firing missiles into Gaza to start a war. Israel held to the cease fire. Hamas didn’t.

A major point is made in this article which by the way is true. Arabs always overstate the number of dead and wounded. Jenin is the perfect example. First report stated 2000 dead which got the spin masters going word for word the same as is being said today. The report even stated that the Israelis were trucking out the dead to a mass burial site. When the smoke cleared, 58 were found dead mostly Fatah. Reports in the Hezbollah war were just as overstated.

Jan 25, 2009 - 1:57 pm 29. joeblough:

Sigh.

The cult of human sacrifice has been with us, in a myriad of forms, for as long as history can record and probably much further back than that.

People are set apart to die. And in many, if not in most such cults, those marked for death, the victims, are entitled to all sorts of prestige and privilege.

While it is not covered explicitly by Fraser’s Golden Bough, in which many such accounts can be found, we are well acquainted with endless examples of ethical systems in which sacrifice, esp. human sacrifice, is held to be precious and exciting, and the victim is accorded special exalted status.

It is reasonable to infer that such value systems applied in all cultures that have practiced human sacrifice, though few (to my knowledge) have left documentary evidence, and many are unsure on this point.

Those of us who have grown up in cultures who’s ethics celebrate some sort of symbolic sacrifice, far from the local home and the present day, fail to recognize that throughout human history and nearly everywhere, the sacrifice is perfectly real and physical and transpires in the same time and place as the faith itself.

All of this is present, and plainly obvious, in the modern mohammedan movements.

The exaltation and love of death, the prestige of the victim, how the victim is sacrificed for the “good” of the community, blah, blah … and so on.

Then stuff like this appears in the papers.

It serves three purposes:

1) Scapegoating the evil enemy population (which diffuses feelings of confusion, inferiority and guilt).

2) The exaltation of the victim, and the spread of the attendant prestige among the survivors, all of whom get to share in the glory through their “loss”.

3) Legitimizing the purposes of political creatures who wish to use all this emotional force to energize their hold-on/ascent-to power.

It’s primitive crap. It’s been with us since time immemorial. You can buy books on the subject.

And nearly nobody wants to make public acknowledgment of the obvious.

Sigh.
.

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:17 pm 30. Bugs:

How many Gazans died? If they keep shooting rockets at the Israelis, I’d say “not enough.”

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:40 pm 31. Sylvie:

Firstly, why has the Jewish State of Israel been chosen to be ‘the Proposed State of Palestine’? Why and how did it finally come to be the Jewish State to have to share its Biblical and Historical land with those Arabs calling themselves Palestinians who bear the most grievous harm to befall this little nation … Its very Destruction! The reason is that the ‘Palestinian/Arabs’ wish to lay claim on land in the Region of Palestine wherein lies the ancient Jewish Homeland and to destroy it in the process. By the same token it has been made known that the Arab League refuses to repudiate their Resolution of 1950 wherein it states that no Arab Country should give ‘Palestinian Refugees’ Arab Citisenship’. With 99.09% of the land mass in the region belonging to the Arabs and only 0.01% as the miniscule State of Israel, Arab Leaders must be watching the scene with glee as did they not always want to see the Jewish people punished? They are having their wish for after all, did they not build Dubai? What is it to build another for those Palestinians who are aiming for the Destruction of Israel and an Islamic Palestine in its place? Let it be, say the Arabs even if they kill each other in the process …..

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:43 pm 32. mountainaires:

Wanted: Israeli War Criminals

http://www.haaretz.com:80/hasen/spages/1057351.html

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:44 pm 33. Fantom:

Bugs at # 30

+1 Not near enough.

Jan 25, 2009 - 2:54 pm 34. mountainaires:

On 16 January 2009 the UK Jewish Member of Parliament, Sir Gerald Kaufman, spoke in the House of Lords on “Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza”.

His full speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&eurl=mhtml:mid://00000779/

Some of the weapons used in war crimes in Gaza were shipped to Israel from the Lakenheath US Air force base, UK.

More4 News investigates:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1184614595/bctid8800852001

Israel’s Naziism

Another excellent report by Jonathan Miller. Telling the story of destruction and war crimes in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hjyq2FzRBo&eurl=http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/01/25/video-israels-nazism/

A Child Full of Light Will Never See Again

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10222.shtml

Jan 25, 2009 - 3:05 pm 35. WestGuard:

How can anyone know who the so called “civiians” are?
Hamas dresses like all the other palestinians in Gaza. They and their families live in houses in the same Gazan neighborhoods as everyone else. Thay have relatives and friends who are in Hamas.
Hamas is comprised of every aspect of the so called “civilian” population: doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians, the police, fire department, business owners, women, teenage youth, etc. etc.

I mean, it’s not like they’re a youth gang hanging out in a group on street corners, wearing black leather jackets that say “Hamas” on the back.

Hamas can’t be separated by physical numbers of members vs non members like a typical Western street gang. Hamas is a mindset, a militant ideology that the people freely choose as their constitution.

Regarding body counts, it’s important to know that the only photos and reporting inside Gaza came from (pro palestinian) Al Jezeera and arab palestinian journalists working for Western new organizations. Andddd, whatever stories and photos that left there were first approved of by Hamas. Heck, some of the people interviewed for these stories were probably Hamas members and or family, friends and supporters of Hamas. Of course there was a lot of exageration and propaganda!

During the war a Hamas spokesman said “It would be easier to empty the sea of every drop of water than to destroy Hamas, because there is a Hamas member in every Gazan household”

That really say’s it all, and better than I could.
Civilians? What civilians??

Jan 25, 2009 - 3:22 pm 36. pat:

the left always seem to think that their history goes back to 1968, they forget why that area was selected.

Jews had been living there for hundreds of years before Islam was even invented and yet they lay claim to it.
Muslims move in and they become a majority and during the years they grow and multiply and now they say it is holy to them.
no it is not not even in the koran does it even mention the area as holy. Mecca and Medina are their holy sites so here’s a thought for those left wing loons who do not know their history of about the land called Judea . Tell the muslims to get out of the christian and Jewish holy land as you are trespassing and that goes for the west, what is next Rome is your holy land because Saudi built yet another massive mosque down the road from the Vatican.

Jan 25, 2009 - 4:04 pm 37. Gozer the Carpathian:

——-
Marc Malone:

Oh, and what’s a “Gazan”? Is that from the tribe of Gozar the Carpathian?
——-

They’re none of my people.

As for reporting of numbers from Israel I’m totally not surprised. Yet again another lead with what sounds good and retract, if ever, on page 60.

Jan 25, 2009 - 4:23 pm 38. thegre8_1:

Bugs 30 you stole my answer I paged all the way down for nothing. I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I would qualify too many civilians because Hamas hides behind women and children and won’t fight against the Israelis like men.

Jan 25, 2009 - 5:09 pm 39. Oscar the Grump:

Once upon a time there was a young boy who full of himself. Walking along one day the boy spotted a lion asleep under a tree. He thought to himself, what fun it would be to wake the lion up. He went up to it and tickled its ear.
The lion open one eye and said,”Don’t bother me.”
Liking the lion’s reaction, the boy tickled the lion’s nose.
The lion opened both eyes and said, “Leave me alone!”
Crying with glee the boy could not resist it one more time. He balled up his fist and hit the lion square in the nose.
The lion didn’t even open his eyes this time. He just swatted the boy leaving him torn and bloody.
Moral of the story: the boy was lucky the lion wasn’t hungry.

Jan 25, 2009 - 6:40 pm 40. Donna V.:

Shef Rogers trots out that tired old trope “Arabs are semites too” to prove to us that we’re anti-semitic. The term “anti-semitic” was coined by a German in the 19th century and was understood to apply to the Jews. That has been the common meaning of the word since. But since dolts like Shef think they’re being clever by twisting the meaning of the word, I usually use “Jew haters.” There, is that better?

Now tell me people who think the Final Solution was a good idea and that someone who straps explosives on himself and blows up a Passover seder is a hero are not Jew haters.

The scum the Left admires,…,

Jan 25, 2009 - 7:27 pm 41. Oscar the Grump:

Donna
you’re not beautiful, you’re intelligent too

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:03 pm 42. Sylvie:

It is true to say that the Arab will never miss an opportunity when they have one of dehumanising the Jew as when in the Al Dura case… in Jenin when it was seen by Israeli pilots aloft ‘dead Arabs walking’ after they had been put away, getting up from their graves ans walking away…. Stupid maybe, but getting away with it is without a doubt and in the same way l,300 dead Arabs may finally end up as being just a few hundred only. Surprising? Knowing the Arabs, not at all.

Jan 25, 2009 - 11:16 pm 43. Linda Mae:

I remember reading an article about Jenin in which the two differing figures of the death count were mentioned yet the caption to the fauxtograph which accompanied it listed the higher number. I wrote a letter to the editor to point this out. It was the picture of who has now become known as the man in the green helmet. I could just feel the hatred coming from his face. I was not surprised to later read about the doctored fauxtos from Reuters. There is a lot of info available about the manipulation of the reader by the media.

Jan 26, 2009 - 4:59 am 44. AnninCA:

I wouldn’t mind the numbers game. That goes on in every war. What I do mind is when the media doesn’t accurately state the source. “Hamas reports x number dead.” That’s all that needed to keep it clean. If you believe Hamas, then great. You believe the numbers.

The rest of us know better.

Jan 26, 2009 - 7:48 am 45. Oscar the Grump:

My friend’s son was at Jenin. Under no circumstances were they to fire on civilians. If one of the Fatah fighters was in a group of civilians, their pursuit was halted. If there was any doubt, they weren’t allowed to fire. What they faced were Fatah soldiers dressed in civilian clothes. They went into the city fighting door to door against snipers, booby traps and suicide bombers. It was a booby trapped building that killed 20 IDF soldiers. They didn’t want to be there, they had gone in because Jenin was a center of suicide bombers who had been terrorizing Israel. In the ruins of that building were sons, brothers and fathers of people in Israel. My friends son knew them all by name. The press squashed much of the news about it. The news kept on reporting about the slaughter of innocent Arab civilians. It seemed that every Arab killed was a civilian. It didn’t matter that when he died he was carrying a Kalachnikov.

Jan 26, 2009 - 8:32 am 46. David W. Lincoln:

What should we expect from the “Sons of Allah”? They consider any means to
be fair when they seek to be at the front of the bus.

It is time to back Nona Darwish, Wafa Sultan, Bat Ye’or, and the other writers who write in the same vein, more energetically.

Jan 26, 2009 - 8:32 am 47. ahad ha'amoratsim:

Donna V, Shef and others like him don’t obfuscate about “anti-Semitism” because they don’t know or don’t care; they do it because they like to obscure moral differences, and say “You are no better than the ones you criticise, and are even worse.” As if he cares what semite or anti-Semite means. Thank you for pointing out the term’s the historical origins for those who do care and did not know, but to the Shefs of the world it will not matter.

Jan 26, 2009 - 10:00 am 48. mohammed:

‘42. Marc Malone:
It’s funny how anti-Semites like to go on about the Jews controlling the world, but those same Jews can’t get a fair shake from the press. If they actually controlled things, then you wouldn’t hear boo about the Jews.’

Point of correction. Zionists control the world and this media coverage rubbish just tells you how unimaginable the true situation is. Imagine what is really happening if what we are seeing now is from a Zionist controlled media.

And to put things straight no major news media reported the number of deaths as verified, they all revealed their source to Palestinian medical sources (not even hamas as some here erroneously believe). These were the only figures to report as the Israeli’s were not giving any figures and reporters have no way of verifying these numbers without access.

And do the numbers really matter? What has been revealed is the fact that Livni has justified civilian deaths as a cost that has to be borne after all they voted hamas. This is the same logic used by bin laden, he justifies killing americans anywh`eere because they must have elected their government and therefore approve the actions of their government when they kill civilians. You lot are pitiful. The zionists and bin laden match each other and for them to dream that it will end in one form of defeat for the other is just what it is, a dream.

Jan 26, 2009 - 11:18 am 49. mohammed:

‘36. pat:
the left always seem to think that their history goes back to 1968, they forget why that area was selected.

Jews had been living there for hundreds of years before Islam was even invented and yet they lay claim to it.
Muslims move in and they become a majority and during the years they grow and multiply and now they say it is holy to them.
no it is not not even in the koran does it even mention the area as holy. Mecca and Medina are their holy sites so here’s a thought for those left wing loons who do not know their history of about the land called Judea . Tell the muslims to get out of the christian and Jewish holy land as you are trespassing and that goes for the west, what is next Rome is your holy land because Saudi built yet another massive mosque down the road from the Vatican.’

If multiplying Arabs is your fear, it is a bit late to worry about that. And to rubbish your other point about land belonging to jews. The last time I checked there are Arab Muslims living in Israel and there are Palestinian Christians in refugee camps in the west bank under occupation. Therefore your narrative makes zilch point.

Jan 26, 2009 - 11:25 am 50. Oscar the Grump:

Hey Mo-hammed,
Your arguments make no sense. Yes there are Muslims living in Israel, they are free there. They have the vote there and are represented in the Knesset. Some even serve in the Israeli armed forces. Compared to Arabs all over Muslim Land they have it good and know it. As for the Palestinian Christians living in refugee camps in the West Bank, lets put Hamas in charge of them. I’m sure they would treat them as well as they did their brothers in Gaza. Another point Mo, the reason we don’t have an accurate count of deaths in Gaza is that it is to Hamas’s benefit not to reveal who died and how many. That way they are free to spin it any way they want, just like you are doing here. Be a good Moslem and go home and beat your wife.

Jan 26, 2009 - 12:39 pm 51. Oscar the Grump:

mounting errors
You have some great hyperlinks. How many people do you have helping with your “research”. Come on you can tell us.

Jan 26, 2009 - 12:59 pm 52. DRW:

I learned all I needed to know about UNRWA when their spokesperson from Gaza on the BBC was identified as Allegra Pacheco. Just check Gideon Levy’s worshipful tribute to this extreme-leftist from haaretz in 2002 (easily found on google).

Jan 26, 2009 - 1:29 pm 53. mohammed:

50. Oscar the Grump:
Don’t go off the tangent. Pat was making the case that the land in Israel belonged to jews and jews only.
Yeah Oscar, talking about wife beating, the last time I checked violence to women is rife within both the religious and secular community in America whether you are talking about suffering rape or loosing a few front teeth. You have more people in prison for violence than every significant country on the face of the earth. May be all these Muslim women covering their faces are covering bruises (you wish). And it is a fact that highest number of converts to any religion in America are women converting to Islam.

Jan 26, 2009 - 1:34 pm 54. Oscar the Grump:

To Donna V
I have to correct what I tried to say.
You’re not only beautiful; but, intelligent too.
Sorry I didn’t look at it earlier.

Jan 26, 2009 - 3:19 pm 55. ella:

Hmm, mohammed.
Could you tell me what monotheistic religion should these women convert to ? After all Christianity is the religion of majority of americans so even if many muslims wanted to convert to Christianity the number of converts from Christianity to Islam would be larger that the other way round. Furthermore many Muslim women who would like to convert to other religions can not do so as the penalty for apostasy in Islam is quite stiff, and that is an understatement.
as for the violence – tell me how many Muslims call police in case of domestic violence? The answer is not many because majority of believers in Islam think that government and the police is their enemy. They are taught that way by many of their Friday prayer leaders, by Islamic organisations and by the experiences they (or their parents) had in the countries they came from.

Jan 26, 2009 - 3:33 pm 56. Donna V.:

And it is a fact that highest number of converts to any religion in America are women converting to Islam.

Only if they’re complete masochists. Oh, sure, we’re all dying to wear sacks and hijabs that make us look like nuns. We want to hide our hair and marry men out of the 7th century who demand that we wait on them hand and foot. We really want our daughters to be killed if they talk to boys or don’t cover their heads before they go out, which happened in Canada not long ago. Yeah, a bright shining future awaits females who convert to Islam. Just ask all the victims of “honor killings.” Oh, no, you can’t – they’re dead.

Why, thank you, Oscar the Grump. You’re a gentleman (another concept unknown to Islam).

Jan 26, 2009 - 3:35 pm 57. Oscar the Grump:

Mo-hammed
Yeah, you’re right the west is rife with women’s honor killings, public stonings, clitoral mutilation and keeping our women subjugated. We should look toward Islam as the better way.
Check out this sight.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/videos/108/the-violent-oppression-of-women-in-islam/
Oops did I get it backwards again? I know why Moslem women cover their faces, that’s to hide their mustaches.
Mo, those women who do convert, very often are left by their husbands and the children are taken away from them. Tell me that doesn’t happen.
Its not too late Mo you could be a Baptist!

Jan 26, 2009 - 4:34 pm 58. Frog:

Donna V.

The most appropriate term is Judeophobia.

Jan 27, 2009 - 11:57 am 59. Frog:

mountainaires and mohammed

Can’t you do something productive? Creative?
Isn’t there a field in which you can contribute to Human well-being?
Is this Judeo-Christian value too contradictory for your morbid preoccupations?

Jan 27, 2009 - 12:11 pm 60. Oscar the Grump:

Frog,
Revit, Revit, Revit!

Jan 27, 2009 - 2:45 pm 61. mountainaires:

Truth is productive…it contributes to human well-being.

Israeli troops killed Gaza children carrying white flag, witnesses say

By Dion Nissenbaum | McClatchy Newspapers

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/60853.html

Muslims Who Saved Jews During the Holocaust Remembered:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059416.html

Jan 28, 2009 - 8:29 am 62. Marc Malone:

#48 mohammed – Hilarious! Those crafty, sneaky Zionists control the whole world! They’re so sneaky and crafty, They allow all this bad media coverage of the Jews that get the Jews attacked everywhere, so that people don’t really find out that they control everything! How evil. How devious.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. We are in total control, but we’re gonna let the world attack us in order to maintain our power. Huh? What?

Jan 28, 2009 - 3:16 pm 63. Cybergeezer:

In answer to the article title; Not enough!

Jan 28, 2009 - 3:35 pm 64. Sylvie:

To mohammed @ 53. Contrary to what you may believe, the Land of Israel, formerly Israel/Judea does belong to the Jews, with its Capital Je-ru-salem founded for them by their King David. The very sound of the names Judea/Jerusalem tells you that it is Jewish just as Arabia belongd to the Arabs. This land has constantly changed hands and when under the rule of the Romans 2000 years ago it was renamed ‘Palestine’ {Filistine] after the Philistines a sea-faring group of Aegean origin and and it has remained ‘Palestine’ since. ‘Palestinians’ of today are no more than a group of Arabs who lived under the British Mandate of Palestine and together with Arab emigreit workers from neighbouring Arab Countries, they adopted the name of being ‘Palestinians’ in order to claim land in the region of Palestine because no other Arab Country was allowed to give them Arab Citizenship according to an Arab League Resolution of 1950. Read the Historian Phillip Hitti’s Documentary on the ‘The Original Arab The Bedouin’ on Google.

Jan 28, 2009 - 10:14 pm 65. typos_R_us:

“Truth is productive…it contributes to human well-being”

WRONG! Facts are productive. Truth is relative. You are confusing facts with truth, which is a common mistake. I blame the educational system.Only on the upper rungs is there a distinction made between fact and ‘truth’. Most people don’t get that far up the ladder. Some disciplines are built wholly of ‘truth’ and collapse wjen faced with a fact.
Example; If humans cause global warming, then how did global warming happen BEFORE humans existed? Sort of an inconvenient fact if you are algore. That fact, plus the fact that global warming is happening on Mars makes me think the sun might have more to do with it then humans. But I’m not algore and making millions off of global warming. My truth is that if algore wasn’t making millions off of global warming, he wouldn’t be pushing it so hard.

On topic, the Arabs that want to destroy Israel have a serious problem. They can’t. Their military is to weak for a traditional pillage and murder spree. Not enough economic clout to do it that way. Not enough political clout to force others to do their dirty work.
So they think that since the UN created Israel, the UN can uncreate Israel.
That is wrong, of course, but as a rule of thumb, Muslims are stupid. Arabs are not the sharpest tool in the box either. Put them together and you get sullen stoopid and lazy.
If they were smart, they would quit trying to destroy Israel. Make peace with the jooos and in 20 years Israel will be a truck stop and deli on the road between Damascus and Cairo.

Jan 29, 2009 - 4:35 am 66. Oscar the Grump:

typos_R_us
Can I get a hot dog concession at that truck stop?

Jan 29, 2009 - 7:49 am 67. Frog:

Next thing that morbid Pravda-producer will argue is that making children is creative. Especially those indoctrinated to become homicide bombers, in case they’re lucky to be effectively used as shields. And if they’re not so lucky – they’re still good material for film and photo.

Jan 29, 2009 - 9:43 am 68. Objective-ish Israeli:

It is a great relief to see journalists that still bother to stop and think. Even more so one from England. Normally it seems here in Israel that no matter what the other side does, we always end up guilty in the eyes of the foreign media, the UN, and more often than not in those of foreign statesmen.

War is terrible, but unfortunately for us and the Palestinians it is currently a very real fact of life; one that I beleive the majority of people on both sides would like to change. A biased media betrays its fundamental goal of informing the public about (what it should honestly judge to be the best approximation to) reality. By doing so, as a bonus, it also fuels already raging fires by increasing prejudice.

Jan 29, 2009 - 3:28 pm 69. DoubleTapper:

It’s really no surprise that Hamas inflated its numbers. In battle, they turned tail and ran away. As result there was very little face to face combat.

They hide behind their children and elderly.

Did you expect anything more from a ragged band of terrorists?

We didn’t!

See examples of their cowardice and terror tactics here.

DoubleTapper
DoubleTapper@gmail.com
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel

Feb 1, 2009 - 1:26 am 70. ashley:

gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood

Mar 6, 2009 - 1:24 pm

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