In Dresden, Obama Does Not Disappoint … Germans
Why the president's visit set off "downright jubilation" among the assembled Dresden residents.
Inside the Frauenkirche, Obama lit a candle under the battered “old cross” that formerly stood atop the church’s dome. It is said that the Frauenkirche is a symbol of “reconciliation.” But, as noted in the Saturday edition of Germany’s Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ), the “old cross” obviously symbolizes something else. The cross “used to be the highest point of the church,” the FAZ writes:
[I]t was rediscovered under the rubble. In its twisted metal, one can still perceive what the cross went through in the firestorm, and with it the church and with it the people.
A symbol of the suffering of Christ reinvested with the significance of German suffering. It was before such a cross that Obama placed a candle in Dresden.
Obama did not say much about the significance of his visit. During his press conference in Dresden, he merely alluded vaguely to the “tragedies” that the city had undergone. It is interesting to note that Angela Merkel did not even go that far. She merely noted matter-of-factly that the city was “destroyed during the Second World War” and “then rebuilt.”
But as the ZDF’s Guido Knopp would note later in the day, Obama did not have to say anything. The heavily loaded symbolism of the Frauenkirche visit did the talking for him. By virtue of his visits to Buchenwald and the Frauenkirche, as Knopp put it, Obama had paid tribute to “all the victims,” i.e., both the victims of Nazi persecution and the German “victims” of the Allies. Knopp, the director of numerous popular television documentaries on the Third Reich, even mumbled something about remembering everybody’s “crimes,” thus making the assertion of moral equivalence more explicit still. (For the Obama administration and the American media, the Buchenwald visit was, of course, above all about commemorating the specifically Jewish victims of Nazi persecution: the victims of the Holocaust. In fact, however, Buchenwald was, so to say, an “all-purpose” concentration camp and not one of the camps, like Auschwitz or Treblinka, that was specifically devoted to the extermination of Jews. On this subject, see my “Obama Flunks History, Again”.)
Was the Allied bombing of Dresden a “tragedy”? Well, in any case, not for everybody. The philologist Victor Klemperer was a resident of Dresden. After the war, Klemperer would write the definitive study of the language of the Third Reich LTI (Lingua Tertii Imperii). As so happens, the bombing of Dresden saved his life. A Jewish convert to Protestantism — hence according to the Nazi “racial laws,” a Jew nonetheless — Klemperer had managed to avoid deportation by virtue of his marriage to an “Aryan” wife. Here is how he recalls the bombing of Dresden in LTI (author’s translation):
On the morning of February 13, 1945, the order came to evacuate the last persons in Dresden who wore the yellow star. Having hitherto avoided deportation as members of “mixed” marriages, their certain fate had now caught up with them. One would have to get rid of them on the road, since Auschwitz had long since fallen into the hands of the enemy and Theresienstadt was under threat.
On the evening of that February 13, catastrophe struck Dresden: the bombs fell, the buildings collapsed, the phosphorous streamed through the sky, the burning timbers fell on both Aryan and non-Aryan heads, and one and the same firestorm brought death to both Jew and Christian. Whoever among the approximately 70 persons wearing the yellow star was spared, however, for him that night meant salvation. In the generalized chaos, he could escape from the Gestapo’s clutches.
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John Rosenthal’s writings on European politics and transatlantic relations have appeared in English, French, and German in such leading publications as Policy Review, Les Temps Modernes, and Merkur. He holds a PhD in philosophy and he taught political philosophy and classical German philosophy before turning to journalism. More of his work can be found at Transatlantic Intelligencer.
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127 Comments
1. Joe:I think the Bible says it this way : “Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind”. War is brutal and tragic, but remember who started WWII. Had we not done all we could to win it, we, among others, would not be speaking English today.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:13 am 2. Conservative1:God please have mercy on our country. They know not what they have done.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:18 am 3. EnemyoftheState:Has the self-proclaimed “student of history” ever visited Coventry in England?
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:31 am 4. Macko:I believe it was the british that carried out the raid and the commanding General was atleast relieved of his command. The germans being victims of the allies is a stretch. The suffering of the germans at dresden certainly pales to the suffering and deaths of germany’s victims throughout europe and everywhere the germans stepped foot. I’ve heard many veterans of WWII say that they wish they had killed more germans.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:48 am 5. Dave Surls:“Was the Allied bombing of Dresden a “tragedy”?”
Well, tens of thousands of civilians were killed. But, since the raid was carried out when the great hero of the liberal Democrats, FDR, was commander-in-chief, I don’t think Obama is going to have too much to say about it, at least not in a judgemental sort of way.
Now, if George Bush had been POTUS when Dresden was bombed, I’m sure he’d be talking about it nonstop.
“Obama did not say much about the significance of his visit. During his press conference in Dresden, he merely alluded vaguely to the “tragedies” that the city had undergone.”
I’ll bet. See the problem the liberal Democrats have when they start talking about nasty things our side did in WWII, is is that those nasty things were ordered by…liberal Democrats.
Best not to dwell on it too much.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:54 am 6. sheesh:5 Dave Surls . . . I agree, liberal Democrats won WWII.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:01 am 7. Highlander:Like a monkey does showing submission to a stronger male. You can expect the President to prance around the world for the next 4-8 years bending over and bareing his psychic posterior of all who would care to kick it.
Just as in late Rome you tend to get real weak Caesers toward the end.
Changing the subject to a lighter note. Have any of you ever heard the theory that the Dresden fire bombing was a direct attack on the genetic stock of the German leadership elites?
Evidently Dresden had never been bombed at all up to that late point in the war. It had no strategic or tactical targets of worth…except….Because of it’s apparent saftey a high percentage of the children of the German elites had been sent there for saftey. I don’t know if this has any validity or not. But if you wanted to incenerate a lot of DNA an urban fire storm would certainly do it. Anyone know any details?
War is rather brutal. One should be very careful about starting them,don’t you think.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:09 am 8. Bohemond:Not at all. Dresden was the principal logistics hub and supply depot for the Eastern front, and Stalin had been asking for months that it be taken out. Moreover, there were 127 factories manufacturing fuses and bombsights, aircraft components, anti-aircraft guns, field guns, small arms, poison gas, gears and differentials, gas masks, and aircraft engines.
It however serves the purposes of some people (notably neo-Nazis) to perpetuate the myth that Dresden was not a military target.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:22 am 9. Another Chuck:One theory floating around German noggins is that Dresden was meant as a warning to the Russians; Don’t even think of advancing beyond the Elbe, which is the border we all agreed on, or we’ll do this Moscow…Leningrad…etc. I think this theory gives far too much credit to allied leaders who at the time were totally moonstruck over Stalin.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:26 am 10. Al Bullock:Look how easily the Germans swallowed Hitler’s crap. Nothing else needs to be explained.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:29 am 11. Michael:LOL, Sheesh, could you type that with a straight face? FDR’s forgien policy would be considered very right wing in todays world. (And it was the evil “military industial complex” that was then called the arsenal of democracy that won the war.
Dresden was a tragedy for those who died there but so it was in London and Coventry for those who died there. The Dresdeners were victims of their own government. Indeed, they did reap the whirlwind.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:33 am 12. Junior Magoo:Hey people I have a question for you. Read this:
The man charged with murdering a high-profile abortion doctor claimed from his jail cell Sunday that similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal, a threat that comes days after a federal investigation launched into his possible accomplices.
A Justice Department spokesman said the threat was being taken seriously and additional protection had been ordered for abortion clinics last week. But a leader of the anti-abortion movement derided the accused shooter as “a fruit and a lunatic.”
Scott Roeder called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail, where he’s being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller one week ago.
“I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal,” Roeder said. When asked by the AP what he meant and if he was referring to another shooting, he refused to elaborate further.
http://www.kansascity.com/637/story/1238855.html
Now I’m sure you realize that this violence affects not only abortion doctors but bystanders and other innocent people. When do you think we should start torturing Roeder? Surely, this is the ticking time bomb scenario you people have been masturbating too for the last eight years. Here it is in the flesh; this ought to be good.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:43 am 13. no name:# 3 enemyofthestate: when dealing with coventry england,one must keep in mind that churchhill willingly allowed coventry to be destroyed. the city could have been evacuated fairly well,but to do so would have tiped off the germans that their codes had been compromised. churchhill, reluctantly, allowed it to happen. in war hard choices have to be made. in this case the correct choice was made. with poopie lips “o” in charge of the helm, i fear for the republic.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:45 am 14. no name:#12 jr. magoo: Roeder is just a practitioner of post birth abortion. what’s the problem?
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:55 am 15. JFM:Evidently Dresden had never been bombed at all up to that late point in the war. It had no strategic or tactical targets of worth…except….
Except its road and bridges to begin with. I haven’t checked for industries but Dresden was bristling with Flak. Why spend so much scarce resources in protecting a city with no military or industrial value.
Because of it’s apparent saftey a high percentage of the children of the German elites had been sent there for saftey
Yeah right. After seeing the atrocities perpetrated by the Russians in East Prussia and every other piece of German soil they had conquered the German elites were eager to send their children to a city who was the German city who was about the closest to the Eastern front. Sure. And their wives too, to care for the little ones. You know about the mass rapes perpetrated by the Red Army, don’t you?
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:02 am 16. Fragmentarian:The Germans have no one but themselves and their willingness to follow their fruitcake Fuhrer, to thank or blame for Dresden and all that befell them. Younger Germans would do well to recall that, totally denounce Germany’s Nazi past, and and move on. Films like The Reader, that attempt to downplay the guilt or absolve Germans of their culpability, do no one any favors.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:04 am 17. davod:Bohemond already noted that Dresden was a major logiscs hub for the war in the East. Look at a map.
“I believe it was the british that carried out the raid and the commanding General was at least relieved of his command.”
Is this a hopefull statement? I doubt if Harris was relievd. The US also bombed Dresden
“3 enemyofthestate: when dealing with coventry england,one must keep in mind that churchhill willingly allowed coventry to be destroyed. the city could have been evacuated fairly well,but to do so would have tiped off the germans that their codes had been compromised.”
Bullshit:
Read the link:
What did Churchill know and when did he know it?
“The most succinct summary came from one of Churchill’s private secretaries, John Colville, in his book, The Churchillians (London, 1981), page 62:
All concerned with the information gleaned from the intercepted German signals were conscious that German suspicions must not be aroused for the sake of ephemeral advantages. In the case of the Coventry raid no dilemma arose, for until the German directional beam was turned on the doomed city nobody knew where the great raid would be. Certainly the Prime Minister did not. The German signals referred to a major operation with the code name “Moonlight Sonata.” The usual “Boniface” secrecy in the Private Office had been lifted on this occasion and during the afternoon before the raid I wrote in my diary (kept under lock and key at 10 Downing Street), “It is obviously some major air operation, but its exact destination the Air Ministry find it difficult to determine.”
That same afternoon, Thursday 14 November 1940, Churchill set off with [private secretary] John Martin for Ditchley, Mr. and Mrs. Ronald Tree’s house in Oxfordshire, generously made available to the Prime Minister once a month when the moon was full and the PM’s official residence, Chequers, was vulnerable. Just before Churchill left, word was received that “Moonlight Sonata” was likely to take place that night. In the car he opened his most recent yellow box and read the German signals in full. He immediately told the chauffeur to turn round, and went back to Downing Street.
On arrival he decided that due precautions must be taken, for he assumed the operation to be aimed at London and to be a more massive assault than had ever been made before. He ordered that the female staff be sent home before darkness fell. He packed John Peck and me off to dine and sleep in a sumptuous air-raid shelter prepared and equipped in Down Street underground station by the London Passenger Transport Board. They made it available to the Prime Minister as well as to their own executive. Churchill called it “the burrow,” but used it himself on only a few occasions.
John Peck and I dined apolaustically in “the burrow.” I commented, with a blend of gratification and disapproval, “Caviar (almost unobtainable in these days of restricted imports); Perrier Jouet 1928; 1865 brandy and excellent Havana cigars.” Meanwhile Churchill, impatient for the fireworks to start, made his way to the Air Ministry roof with John Martin and saw nothing. For on their way to Coventry, the raiders dropped no bombs on London.
There is not even the thinnest shred of truth in Group Captain Winterbotham’s story of Coventry. It is to be hoped that neither this incident nor a score of others with which Mr. Stevenson’s book about “Intrepid” is gaudily bedizened are ever used for the purpose of historical reference. To dispel such an unacceptable hazard is my excuse for this long digression.
Colville was not the first to reveal the truth. Former private secretary, John Martin, who had been with Churchill in London on the fateful night, awaiting the bombers that never came, recalled the facts in The Times on 28 August 1976, when the charge was first circulating. A quarter century later, Christopher Hitchens in The Atlantic wrote that no Churchill defender has ever challenged the story. Historians Norman Longmate, Ronald Levin, Harry Hensley, and David Stafford are just four historians who as early as 1979 explicitly dismissed the Coventry story for the nonsense it is.
Colville’s hopes were in vain. The Coventry lie hardily endures, probably forever, periodically resurrected and solemnly proclaimed by those who have convinced themselves of Churchill’s perfidy.”
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:20 am 18. insomnia:#12: We shouldn’t torture Roeder but if he has information that could stop imminent attacks we should definitely waterboard him, or put him in a box with a caterpillar, or make him stand in an uncomfortable position and pour cold water on him, or slap him, or throw him against a flexible wall or keep him awake for 180 hours or put him on a liquid diet. Of course, this administration knows that stuff doesn’t work so we should just try to be his friend instead or maybe offer him a cigarette or some coffee or a hug. We could play “good cop, bad cop” but only if the AG approves it.
Seriously, Obama is making this up as he goes along. He is clueless and he has surrounded himself with sycophants and Bidens instead of serious people who could help him. For all their techiness, they apparently don’t even know how to use Google or Wikipedia. The (D) after their names must stand for ‘dumb’ because they can’t even get the simple stuff right.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:26 am 19. davod:PS:
This shows why the lies need to be rebutted as soon as they are spread.
The same happens all the time with the run up to the Iraq War and Iraiq’s WMD capability. I get tired of quoting and linking to the same documents but this highlights why it must be done.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:28 am 20. Junior Magoo:Insomnia, you’ve totally avoided the point. This is obviuosly as serious as any terrorist threat from muslim extremists. Should they torture him or shouldn’t they. Keep in mind, he hasn’t even had a trial yet. I’ll make you people use your brains yet.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:43 am 21. BettyBlue:Magoo, you don’t have any brains. You’re just firing off trick questions. That doesn’t make you smart.
Insomnia answered your question. It just wasn’t the answer you wanted.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:48 am 22. Ms. Attitude:12. Junior Magoo:
Hey You Magoo, read this:
If he has given information regarding future bombings wouldn’t it be smart to stay away from the clinics? What?
Roeder is an American citizen and protected by OUR laws. Your friends in Gitmo aren’t. How many American’s were in danger from your friends? ALL of us. Who is in danger from Roeder? Oh, wait, no one. You got your info and all we need to do to prevent more killings is to close the abortion clinics. There, lives saved, born and unborn! Now we are all happy.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:50 am 23. BettyBlue:I also fail to see what torture, Roeder and all the rest of it have to do with Obama’s speech in Dresden.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:50 am 24. Junior Magoo:Betty Blue. Ok, prove that I’m the one who’s stupid. Where did Insomnia answer the question? And more importantly, can you answer it.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:54 am 25. BettyBlue:Having followed some other articles on the Roeder/conspiracy thing, it sounds as if the authorities themselves are rather dubious his claims. So far, there’s no evidence that said conspiracy exists anywhere outside his imagination. If, and when, such evidence emerges (myself, I think the guy’s completely nuts), we can all debate about what to then.
Also, as Ms. Attitude points out, he is an American citizen, whereas the Gitmo boys were not. Our laws do not extend to them.
All this has to do with Obama’s speech in Dresden. . . why exactly?
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:59 am 26. AThinkingPerson:Junior Magoo is a perfect example of the typical Obama junkie. They believe anything spoonfed to them off of the HuffPo website as the gospel truth and truly believe anyone not joining them at their Obama worshiping must be a neo-con with violent anti-abortion tendencies.
Junior….get a life. The world’s a much bigger place than you’ve been led to believe.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:14 am 27. The Shadow:I think that the bombing of a city with little military value and one that resulted in thousands of deaths cannot be defended morally
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:15 am 28. Junior Magoo:Betty. What the hell is so important about the speech in Dresden? You people obsess about image and superficiality, but when it comes time to actually thinking about your positions, proving them to yourselves and to others, you take a pass. I’m not sure why you think that Roeder’s conspiracy claims are dubious, when he was in contact with several people before the act that had particpated in anti-abortion terror. One of them works for Operation Rescue, and he called her the day before the assassination.
Whatever the circumstances, its clear that the same dubious claims could have been made by muslim prisoners at gitmo and Bagram. They were tortured anyway, and I’m sure you think that’s fine. I feel sorry for your children–where most learn to think critically is from their parents, and you are just recycling your ignorance.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:24 am 29. BettyBlue:#16 Fragmentation, yes; in the end, the Germans have no one else to blame but themselves, and their leaders, for Dresden and WWII, and its accompanying miseries.
As somebody else said earlier, all these efforts to whitewash the past, and turn Germany into a victim, rather than an aggressor, does neither Germany, nor anybody else, any favors.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:28 am 30. BettyBlue:A thinking person, yes; I suspect Magoo may just be trying to hijack the thread by derailing it, thereby forestalling any criticism of the One, or his speech.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:29 am 31. Ms. Attitude:25. BettyBlue: Ah, yes, the Dresden visit and speech.
One has to wonder why Obama really chose Dresden. It’s like a sacred place to the neo-Nazi’s. Maybe it’s the Nazi-Islam connection. Does the name Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini ring a bell with anyone? http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:29 am 32. gclarke:# 12 Junior Magoo:
As a father of two, I am an opponent of abortion against children that appear to be children and I don’t much like it at the earlier stages either but I don’t have a problem with harsh interrogation methods against Raeder if it is constitutional. I am sure he is getting a good working over but he has not been convicted of anything.
But there is a big difference in interrogating a US citizen when in criminal custody (Constitution applies) and interrogating a captured enemy soldier out of uniform (spy or terrorist) in the middle of a war (Constitution and unilateral breach of Geneva accords by the spy/terrorist, which requires uniforms and flags of sovereignty) do not apply. You uneducated yokels don’t get it, but we’ll keep trying to educate you. Maybe someday you’ll wake up to the value of education and knowledge but I doubt it.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:32 am 33. Snappy:Junior,
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:40 am 34. Richard G.:Your education appears to be lacking somewhat. Go do some research on the differences and rights afforded legal American citizens, and non-US-citizen enemy combatants captured on the field of battle, then look into the differences between uniformed combatants and terrorist or nonuniformed rogue combatants engaged in terroristic activities. You should be able to answer your own questions after that. If not? Then you never will get an answer you understand.
Living in Germany, I watched Obama’s visit to Dresden live on German TV.
There was no mention of symbolism, apologies, German victims. To the average German it was a popular US President and Chancellor Merkel visiting a very nice, ornate church in Dresden.
The most intriguing question in the German press prior Obama’s arrival was would Merkel accompany Obama to the sites (since it is an election year & supposedly there is friction between Obama and Merkel) and was French President Sarkozy jealous of Obama visiting Merkel.
Plus, where was Michelle?
And, why did Merkel wear an unstylish, yellow blazer that made her look like a big lump of butter?
The interviews with people in the Germans in Dresden was more about seeing the celebrity Obama; I never heard one person reference WWII.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:41 am 35. jordy2009:Re: the fire-bombing of Dresden and the thousands of German vi tims: BOO HOO FRIGGIN HOO!!!!!!!
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:42 am 36. BettyBlue:Hmmmm, yes, it could be the Nazi-Islam connection, given as how obsessed Obama is with reaching out to Islam.
Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini does ring a bell—a nasty one; Hitler’s dear ally, and Yassir Arafat’s uncle.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:42 am 37. JEFF GORDON:for Germans Dresden has become the symbol bar none of German suffering at the hands of the Allies and even of Allied “war crimes.
Allied WAR CRIMES ??????? Are they completely insane ???The fact that Germasny still exists at all shows how incredibly merciful the allies were.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:42 am 38. Steady:The American people had elected a real boob to the White House. The quicker this fraud’s term is over the better off the country will be. Hopefully the damage he will cause is reversible.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:46 am 39. BettyBlue:Yes, Magoo, I know, I know, you’ve very upset that those poor lads at Gitmo were hurt. How can they fight against devil America, if we’re so mean as to lock them up, and interrogate them?
As I said earlier, you’ve gotten answers—more than one; you just don’t like what they were. If you don’t want to hear the answers, don’t ask the question in the first place.
Go back and re-read my post; I said I’d read articles in more papers, and on the internet, wherein the authorities seemed rather dubious about Roeder’s claims. The doubt is theirs, not mine.
If you think the Dresden speech isn’t important, why are you here trying to distract us from it, with dumb, trick questions?
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:47 am 40. jerryofva:The shadow:
You must be historically ignorant. Countries that start world wars do not have recourse to sympathy for what happens to them. Stalin and Hitler started the war in Europe and events like Dresden are just punishment for their misdeeds.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:50 am 41. BettyBlue:If you really do question the importance of the Dresden speech, you might want to backtrack a bit, to JEFF GORDON’S post #37, Ms. Attitude’s post, and link, about the Grand Mufti, and dozens of others that discuss the importance of it on this thread.
Or you could actually read the article itself.
Oh, and Insomnia answered your question in Post #18.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:51 am 42. Ms. Attitude:34. Richard G.:
The German press seems to be just as with it as CNN, MSNBC, and the other US press useful idiots. You’d at least think that the German’s would’ve learned how dangerous it can be to worship a head of state.
Jun 8, 2009 - 10:57 am 43. Mongoose:Sheesh. Right, those Democrats like Patton and Ike, really knew thre stuff.
In truth , the parties worked together as did all Americans.
Contrast this with the tratorous behavior of the Democrats during Viet Nam (which was a started by what where then called “Liberal Democrats”) or the WOT.
FDR, Truman or JFK would have nothing to do with the modern Democrat Party nor would that The Democrats have want them. That is how low they have fallen.
Once again, Sheesh, you demonstrate just why Democrats should be not allowed near anything that requires knowledge, competence or s sense of responsibility, and that includes the instruction of young minds. You are an exemplar of all of this.
Jun 8, 2009 - 11:15 am 44. Junior Magoo:Gclarke:
Two words: Jose Padilla. US Citizen. Tortured. Ex-Baby and Fetus.
Next.
Jun 8, 2009 - 11:25 am 45. Gary Ogletree:Obama managed to keep his mouth shut? Miracles do happen. Today’s Germans have no personal responsibility for the mass insanity of Nazism. They have owned up to it as a country, which is in keeping with the Western tradition. Other nations, such as Japan, and especially Muslims countries, continue to be in a state of denial about their history.
Jun 8, 2009 - 11:28 am 46. Jerome:Interesting parallel: In the 1930s, Germans were easily misled and/or enthralled by Nazi murderer Adolph Hitler, and now in 2009, these same Germans are enthralled (or easily misled?) by the Great Deception of Obama.
Wunderkind!
Jun 8, 2009 - 11:41 am 47. "progressive"watch:Mr. Magoo,when there are a rash of abortion clintic shootings I will grant that you are not hallucinating and prevaricating and mystificating.
Jun 8, 2009 - 11:48 am 48. Stephen:@Jr. Magoo
Though your initial post (#12) has nothing to do with the President’s speech (distraction?). You issue a challenge based on the a story out of K.C. regarding the alleged murderer of Dr. Tiller.
Now, there is no apparent reason to believe that Roeder knows anything. This is far, from the ticking bomb scenario you seem to assume. But for the sake of discussion, let’s suppose that there is lots of evidence available to the FBI pointing to an ongoing plot for more murder and mayhem and that Roeder is a central player; maybe even the organizer. In other words, assume the the ticking bomb scenario. You are in a position to decide whether or not to, say, water board him. You choice is simple: water board or not.
The information you obtain could save many lives. What do _you_ do? Simple question: Do _you_ order the water boarding or not? Yes, or no?
Jun 8, 2009 - 11:53 am 49. Stephen:@ The Shadow (#27)
Actually, both the western Allies and Russians believed Dresden to be militarily significant. A nice account of this, and politics surrounding the Dresden bombing since, can be found in Fredrick Taylor’s, “Dresden”. A review was published in the Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0210/p14s02-bogn.html
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:00 pm 50. AThinkingPerson:Junior Magoo: Daniel Pearl ————-> beheaded
What the hell IS your point? Unborn babies are alright to murder but MURDERERS should be handled with respect? You seriously are devoid of any rational thought.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:02 pm 51. mehere:Wasn’t Mr Magoo incredibly short sighted?
Runs in the family, it seems
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:06 pm 52. GinnyPub:Thank you John Rosenthal for a history lesson. With children being taught milquetoast history (aka “social studies”), articles like yours are good to print out for our children.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:11 pm 53. doubting tomas:46. Jerome:
Interesting parallel: In the 1930s, Germans were easily misled and/or enthralled by Nazi murderer Adolph Hitler, and now in 2009, these same Germans are enthralled (or easily misled?) by the Great Deception of Obama.
Wunderkind!
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:12 pm 54. maverick:Doesn’t it make you think that amerikkka is in the same position as the germans of the 1930’s. He captivates them with someone else’s words read from a teleprompter and they are mesmerized. I bet he could orate for hours and they would love him more.
We are sick, but not any sicker than the nazis.
Know what my grandfather (a WWII vet who lost a leg to the krauts) called the bombing of Dresden?
A good start.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:18 pm 55. Shef Rogers:What’s the point? Bitter oldies arguing “our dead are better than your dead” on their way to the grave–the dregs of 19th-century ethnic nationalism. Let it go.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:23 pm 56. sule:I so don’t care about who or what abortion doctor is killed by who or what wildcat vigilante shooter…
So a guy decides to be pro-choice about someone else’s life…excuse me…television programing between the hours of 6 and 10P.M. teaches that and more.
Don’t you just love self righteous liberals?
By the way, nice try at changing the subject.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:27 pm 57. PresidenToor:This article is f’d up and disingenuous.
It starts out by saying:
“In the run-up to Obama’s Germany visit, the White House appeared to be at pains to downplay the significance of the stop of Dresden. Asked whether the president had chosen Dresden “just because it’s close to Buchenwald,”…”
THE WHITE HOUSE WAS ASKED THE QUESTION. Their answer:
“…a presidential spokesman explained that the president’s conversations with Chancellor Merkel had piqued his interest in the former East Germany and that he was “looking forward” to seeing “the major changes in the former East.” ”
Meaning the White House was going to Dreseden because of a conversation with Merkel, NOT BECAUSE OF LOGISTICS.
But Pajamas explanation:
“But a simple look at the map reveals the disingenuousness of the attempts to explain the choice of Dresden as just a matter of “logistics” (as Time magazine put it).”
WHAT? That’s not what you just said. The White House never attempted to explain it like that according to the paragraph you just wrote. IT WAS NOT B/C OF A MATTER OF LOGISITCS THAT THEY VISITED DRESEDEN IT WAS B/C OF A CONVERSATION OBAMA HAD WITH MERKEL.
This reporting is even more f’d up then some of the stuff that goes on here at Hot Air, at least O’Reilly has the guts to apologize once in a while.
Total BS.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:30 pm 58. DavidN:This is a weird discussion. On the one hand, you get the wackjobs saying that Obama’s Hitler (see above) or something equally silly…on the other hand, you have people essentially saying “So what” when they read that Obama went to Dresden after Buchenwald. The idea that someone could equate the Holocaust with the Allied bombing of German cities seems silly and self-evidently incorrect, so no one in Germany, even, could take it seriously. The problem is this: regardless of whether we think it is a reasonable idea, it *is* taken seriously by a large segment of German society, especially historians, and Obama, knowingly or unwittingly, played right into their hands. The Frauenkirche is essentially a centerpiece of the martyrdom of Dresden and the bombing victims there. Frederick Taylor pointed out that while most of the rest of Dresden was destroyed by the Allied bombing, the city’s synagogue was burned during Kristallnacht in 1938. He also proved pretty conclusively that most of the casualty figures bandied around since are inflated (and were first inflated by the Nazis), and pretty much explained that Dresden’s suffering wasn’t exceptional, during the war.
People who confront this issue superficially don’t understand the depth of German guilt about what was done during World War II, and the rather extreme German reaction to the whole thing, which has in turn led to rather strange feats of logical gymnastics and semantic acrobatics, in an effort to absolve Germany, or somehow prove that the Allies were guilty of equal, or worse, crimes. Books by Germans dealing with the Eastern Front, for instance, typically spend no time at all discussing war crimes the German’s committed in the first two years of the war (when they killed literally millions of soldiers and civilians, including but not restricted to Jews, in the territory they occupied), but they dwell endlessly on the suffering of German civilians (especially the women) at the hands of the barbaric Soviets in the last year of the war. The Germans bombed every capitol city of every country they fought for the first two years of the war, indiscriminately, but the technology they possessed didn’t allow them to kill as many civilians as they would have liked: when the Allies retaliated, they got much better at it than the Germans, and so are to be condemned.
I doubt Obama meant anything by this visit. He’s smart enough to know he should stay on the right side of the Holocaust issue, and the speech he made at Buchenwald roundly condemned Holocaust deniers. What I expect happened here is a replay of the incident with Ronald Reagan and the German army cemetery at Bitburg in the early 80s. The Germans proposed something, and the White House agreed, not realizing what they were getting into, said yes. Hopefully, the Germans will not try to read into this a validation of the cherished theory of some that the bombing of Dresden was somehow the moral equivalent of the Holocaust.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:32 pm 59. Fragmentarian:The point my dear Shef is that “Never Again” is supposed to mean something. We see a president who seems to have forgotten what was learned by paying a very high price. Unless, of course, white washing the old nazis and reaching out to the new ones is an your idea of moving on.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:33 pm 60. Ms. Attitude:44. Junior Magoo:
In the words of Condi Rice, “Do your homework first.”
The Congressional military authorization (the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists) pertained only to nations, organizations or persons whom the President “determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the September 11, 2001 attacks, or harbored such organizations or persons.”
On September 9, 2005, a three-judge panel of the Fourth Circuit ruled that President Bush had the authority to detain Padilla without charges, in an opinion written by judge J. Michael Luttig. In the ruling, Luttig cited the joint resolution by Congress authorizing military action following the September 11, 2001 attacks, as well as the June 2004 ruling concerning Yaser Hamdi.
On August 16, 2007, José Padilla was found guilty, by a federal jury, of charges against him that he conspired to kill people in an overseas jihad and to fund and support overseas terrorism.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:41 pm 61. AThinkingPerson:It’s finally happening…. Obama might actually have to come through on all of the promises he’s made during his soaring oratories. The world awakens to the horror we have wrought upon it with our last election….
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124441577582992341.html
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:45 pm 62. Войска ПВО:27. The Shadow writes:
“I think that the bombing of a city with little military value and one that resulted in thousands of deaths cannot be defended morally.”
You mean like New York?
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:48 pm 63. lefroy:Dresden:
Bad luck. You shouldn’t have started WW2.
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:48 pm 64. Войска ПВО:44. Junior Magoo:
“Two words: Jose Padilla. US Citizen. Tortured. Ex-Baby and Fetus.”
Magoo, four words: Back on your meds
Jun 8, 2009 - 12:50 pm 65. Junior Magoo:boinkie:
This is interesting. Are you disputing that such a person exists? You people are something else; talk about faith based politics. Do you investigate or substantiate any of your beliefs?
Its a question you need to ask; membership in the Republican party, as functional proportion of the population, begins to resemble the same percentage of people with sub-normal intelligence.
Jun 8, 2009 - 1:11 pm 66. Junior Magoo:What I find interesting is the constant fascination for Obama’s visits to Germany. Really, why don’t you get your hummel figurines and go find somebody to play with.
Jun 8, 2009 - 1:15 pm 67. AThinkingPerson:Re: #57 PresidenToor: So basically you’re telling us that we should disregard any other reporting and just blindly believe the White House? LOL!! You liberals are such a gullible lot.
Let me guess, you also believe that:
1) Obama’s 3 TRILLION dollar budget is fiscally sound.
2) Obama could speak coherently without the aid of a teleprompter.
3) MSNBC is THE place to go for an unbiased opinion on politics.
4) Obama is not a Muslim per se but if admitting to being one while on a foreign visit serves to further his agenda, what the hell.
Jun 8, 2009 - 1:16 pm 68. PresidenToor:58. DavidN:
When you refer to “see above” I’m sure you weren’t refering to me*
Jun 8, 2009 - 1:16 pm 69. The Shadow:Stephen:
How many civilians were killed in the raid. I have heard 35,000 although the number could be far higher. The other quetion is the practical question of whether or not it shortened the war. I have seen no evidence so far that it did. As a Christian, I believe in the santity of life.
Jun 8, 2009 - 1:52 pm 70. Harry:Post 31 Ms Attitude:
Jun 8, 2009 - 2:20 pm 71. Ed Wallis:Yes I knew about the Grand Mufti but your link was a real eye opener. Seems the Nazi’s learned more from him than the other way around. He makes Arafat look like a boyscout. Sadly there are still plenty of Mufti wannabees throughout the Arab world who, just like the original, do not want to compromise. Now up steps Obama to the mike demanding Israel start compromising. It is very foolish and very naive of Obama because he is not as forceful with the Palestinians. But not all blame can be on the Palestinian people because they are controlled by a terrorist organization with ties to Iran, meanwhile, Obama keeps making goo-goo eyes and puckering his lips at the Mullahs. Obama is either a genius or just plain crazy. Until otherwise proven I must opt for crazy.
Dear Mr. Rosenthal,
I can well imagine that, when SOBama shuts his mouth, most people are pleased.
Any thoughts on how to get him to keep it up? heh.
Jun 8, 2009 - 2:37 pm 72. Stephen:Shadow:
35,000 tends to the high end of Taylor’s estimates. But you’re going to see quite a few estimates. Did it shorten the war? In retrospect, probably not, or at least not significantly. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if the planners of the raid thought that it would. After all, if you believe that a target is militarily significant, then perforce, you ought to believe that its destruction will contribute to shortening the war. I suspect, that at that point, after 4-5 years of war, nearly everyone among the Allies just wanted to finish things as quickly as possible. In the history of warfare, it is often the case that many of the nastiest parts come on eve of the end.
Jun 8, 2009 - 2:46 pm 73. David Levavi:DavidN:
“…The Germans proposed something, and the White House agreed, not realizing what they were getting into, said yes…”
Interesting take, David. I was under the impression that Ronald (Dutch) Reagan’s Bitburg visit was engineered by Pat (Dutch) Buchanan.
The activities of Nazi Pat and some others in the Reagan White House in those years is exceedingly curious. I’ve always wondered when the onset of Alzheimers took place and whether Reagan’s condition wasn’t exploited by close aides for a subversive agenda.
In his biography of The late Pope, Carl Bernstein tells a odd story about a visit to the Vatican by a several White House officials, all of them daily mass attending Roman Catholics.
The White House aides presented the Pope and the Vatican’s Foreign Minister with CIA maps of incursions into traditionally Catholic territories in Latin America by Christian Evangelical missionaries. On whose authority they were acting, if, indeed, they had proper authority, is unclear in Bernstein’s book.
Why the CIA would collect such information I leave to your imagination, David. But funny stuff went on in the Reagan White House. Reagan was a rational conservative surrounded in his dotage by some very crude fascist types.
Jun 8, 2009 - 2:55 pm 74. BettyBlue:Magoo, what I find interesting is the fact that, though you’re supposedly not interested in the matter under discussion here, you keep hanging around, ordering us to stop talking. Can’t you go play with your Obama action figures?
Is is that you’re afraid we’re going to criticize The One, unless we shut up?
Jun 8, 2009 - 3:16 pm 75. BettyBlue:I wonder which of Nazi Germany’s actions could be defended morally? Auchswitz? The invasion of Russia? The conquest of France, and Holland? The night after night bombing of British civilians?
In the end, Germany has no one else to blame for WWII, but their leaders, and themselves. It’s wrong to try and paint them as innocent victims, or attempt to make Dresden the equivalent of the Holocaust.
Jun 8, 2009 - 3:21 pm 76. neverquit:Magoo,
18. insomnia – answered you directly and completely. You just don’t like it.
I will gladly stand in line to pour water on this fool, where do I sign up?
Jun 8, 2009 - 3:59 pm 77. ISO:the poor innocent german people of dresden?
no such thing. they supported the nazi party and got what they deserved.
dresden was not the worst of it. have you seen the history channel special on the last 90 days of WWII? bomber command had complete air superiority, the war was nearly over, nothing really left to bomb, but they kept bombing day and night. why? to break the will of the german people, to show them that it was OVER.
WWII is not a good example of anything except total war for survival. the allies killed as many people as they could, as did the germans.
we won, they lost, and for obama to go to dresden in mock sorrow shows an incredible childish view of the world.
Jun 8, 2009 - 4:41 pm 78. SukieTawdry:The Dresden stop was apology by implication. It was Obama’s Buchenwald “on the other hand.”
Don’t be obtuse, magoo; the Tiller murder actually is a law enforcement matter and all domestic criminal jurisprudence rules apply. And don’t kid yourself, cops have been known a time or two to “tune up” the recalcitrant perp who refuses to give it up. My philosophical self naturally abhors the practice, my pragmatic self, I confess, not so much.
I think the allies really, really wanted WWII to finally be that war to end all wars because war on that scale really, really is hell and they were well aware of the weapons looming on the horizon. They made a point of making that point to both the German and Japanese civilian populations (it seems to have worked, perhaps too well–both populations now favor pacifism to a degree that can be dangerous to themselves and others). Sometimes human nature demands that near utter destruction must occur before a constructive rebuilding can begin. And contrary to Obama’s rhetoric, almost never does peace break out just because the opposing parties find themselves on a piece of common ground.
Jun 8, 2009 - 5:32 pm 79. Junior Magoo:Neverquit:
Well, he didn’t, but you did. At least your honest. Now, for the funny part. Who makes these distinctions and according to what metric? Why not torture ordinary suspects, who may have associates who are planning crimes which will endanger lives? Why not.
Here’s the thing. Torturing completely bypasses due process–you haven’t established guilt, and yet you are proceeding as if the suspect is guilty. You can plug in whatever jingoistic bull you want here–it isn’t what the framers intended, nor was it what all of the veterans who gave their lives for our freedoms fought for. Do you think they really intended for a cadre of individuals to completely subvert our justice system whenever it was expedient?
Jun 8, 2009 - 5:49 pm 80. Frank:Why shouldn’t Obama apologize for opposing the Nazi’s? The Nazi’s were fellow socialists, remember!
Jun 8, 2009 - 6:10 pm 81. Junior Magoo:Sukie:
“Don’t be obtuse, magoo; the Tiller murder actually is a law enforcement matter and all domestic criminal jurisprudence rules apply. And don’t kid yourself, cops have been known a time or two to “tune up” the recalcitrant perp who refuses to give it up. My philosophical self naturally abhors the practice, my pragmatic self, I confess, not so much.”
The Tiller murder is a federal matter, and is currently being considered under legislation that applies to terrorism. But in any case, its clear that you don’t care enough about the issues our freedoms are based on to make sure that the law is being applied constitutionally. Torture is illegal according to US law, and its also unconstitutional, which means that neither regular law enforcement nor any arm of the government can sanction it. Your attitude is offensively anti-American.
Jun 8, 2009 - 6:11 pm 82. Banned by Huffpo:Did Obambi happen to mention the tragedy of the German bombing of Pearl Harbor? Or the tragedy of Germany dropping a nuclear bomb on Moscow?
Tsk, tsk.
Jun 8, 2009 - 6:12 pm 83. Dave Surls:“5 Dave Surls . . . I agree, liberal Democrats won WWII.”
They surely did.
They also slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians.
They also bungled us into it in the first place.
They also got 400,000 of our guys killed winning it.
And we didn’t win anything except the satisfaction of winning.
But, they did win.
Jun 8, 2009 - 6:38 pm 84. Dave Surls:“Whatever the circumstances, its clear that the same dubious claims could have been made by muslim prisoners at gitmo and Bagram. They were tortured anyway, and I’m sure you think that’s fine.”
Sure, I think roughing up terrorists is totally fine. If liberal Democrats can kill hundreds of thousands of totally innocent civilians with HE, napalm and atomic bombs in order to win a war, then I figure it’s gotta be o.k. to dunk a totally not innocent terrorist’s head under water in order to win a war.
Democrats burn little babies alive to win, Republicans dunk terrorist’s heads under water to win.
So, what’s Obama going to say about that?
Not much, if he’s got any brains at all.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:07 pm 85. Ms. Attitude:79. Junior Magoo:
How many times do you need to be pointed to my post 22?
There’s your legal answer. There was lengthy discussion on 2 other threads last week, look them up and keep on subject. Stop following Alinky’s rules.
What is your take on Obama and his visit to Dresden? Do you think he went there as part of his world tour to point out all of the things he thinks the USA did wrong in the past? Do you think there is a link to his bowing to Islam? See my post at 31.
BTW: Obama and his followers all claim that Islam (a religion remember) dislikes the USA because of Bush. Explain the hate that existed before Bush.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:12 pm 86. Usaq Madik:Jose Padilla? Who’s that? You mean Abdullah al-Muhajir?
If so, yes he’s an American citizen, but he was never tortured. He was found guilty by an American court though.
As for the baby killer murderer, he should definitely be put through some AIT’s.
I can’t believe there are people here actually trying to claim the bombing of Dresden was wrong. Truly mind-boggling.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:48 pm 87. Dave Surls:“Torture is illegal according to US law”
Yeah, well that’s why the Republicans just dunk terrorist head’s under water instead of skinning them alive, like they should have done. They didn’t want to step over the line into actual torture, because they didn’t want to break the law.
This is not an issue for liberal Democrats. If they need to fry a hundred thousand civilians at Hiroshima to get what they want…then they just go ahead and do it, and to hell with whether it’s legal or not.
Jun 8, 2009 - 7:51 pm 88. Marie Claude:“And there are the political distortions. The Nazis were the first to exaggerate the number of victims for propaganda purposes, and the communists were liable to push the numbers up during the post-war period, in order to discredit the Anglo-Americans, who had been the Soviets’ allies until 1945 but were now their Cold War enemies. Finally, neo-Nazis in modern Germany conjure up dizzyingly high figures running into the hundreds of thousands, while at the same time playing down or denying the World War II mass murder of the Jews and the Roma and Sinti, hoping thereby to convince their fellow-citizens that the Allied bombing of Germany was an even worse “holocaust” than the actual one.”
Frederick Taylor,Der Spiegel 10/02/08
and
“The city of Dresden serves as a symbol – of destruction of war, but also of reconstruction. A symbol of the will of the people – many people from many nations – to engage in reconciliation and reconstruction,” Merkel spokesman Ulrich Wilhelm told reporters a day before Obama’s arrival.”
http://ujc.org/page.aspx?id=201376
well, I think that Obama, acording to what we know about his knowledge in history and geography, didn’t even was aware of the dresden symbolism for the Germans. He went there in the line of his dicourse in Cairo, saying “ya see, peace is possible, Germans managed it, even though they were nazi executioners and paid the price of ruins for that”. Now behind the discourses, he was rather buttering Angela and the Germans up, he needs them to approach the russian bear, that apparently doesn’t hold him in high estime (ie Putin’s critics of America’s socialist policy, of Nato operations in Georgia…) and his projects of slowing down nuclear arms race.
Jun 8, 2009 - 8:09 pm 89. BettyBlue:Magoo, Stephen asked you an interesting question too, in Post #48; care to answer it?
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:13 pm 90. Marc Malone:So, Obama was either suckered into the Dresden visit, or he’s continuing his apology tour 2.0, or, maybe, it had no meaning at all?
Lessee, Prez visits foreign country to speak. Everything he does there has political meaning, perforce. So, therefore, it does have meaning.
Did he not know that? Hmm, more incompetence. No, he’s not incompetent when it comes to political manipulation. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was apologizing in code. These radicals know all about the secret handshake method of politics. Plausible deniability. Wink and a nod. Quiet symbology when it is a politically unacceptable position.
Perhaps, Obama doesn’t mean it. Perhaps he is employing taquiyya against them. Not exactly reassuring. Don’t really want a Sneaky-Bastard-in-Chief.
Besides, it’s insulting to the vets of WWII. It’s also insulting to America. I also don’t want an America-Basher-in-Chief.
No, I want a man who’ll declare our virtues, not decry them.
Jun 8, 2009 - 9:43 pm 91. Pandora:Why are they only talking about Dresden? All of the German cities with more than 100.000 inhabitants were laid waste by the allied bombs targeted at the inner cities and residential areas. In Dresden, the allied didn’t start the air raid until the town was packed with refugees from the east – mainly women and children.
[quote]The shadow:
You must be historically ignorant. Countries that start world wars do not have recourse to sympathy for what happens to them. Stalin and Hitler started the war in Europe and events like Dresden are just punishment for their misdeeds.[/quote)
I understand, it would be ok for you, if hundreds of thousands of American civilians would be killed in revenge for the American war on Iraq?
Jun 9, 2009 - 1:13 am 92. JFM:Mr Stephen
Your link to the Christian Science Monitor is not too bad excrept for one thiing: it tells of aerial bombing as the major factor for the fact that civilian deaths outnumbered military ones by two to one (41 to 19 millions). The truth is that at best aerial bombings caused at most two million victims. The other 39 were caused by old fashioned massacre mostly perpetrated by Japanese soldiers upon Chinese civilians (some 20 millions) followed by the Shoah, followed by the killing of non-Jewish Slavs by the Nazis or their puppets like Croatian Ustachi or the Bosnian and Albanians enlisted in the SS Hanschar division.
Jun 9, 2009 - 1:49 am 93. Barbara:Presidentoor, perhaps Chancellor Merkel had “piqued Obama’s interest” in the former East Germany for political reasons.
Jun 9, 2009 - 4:22 am 94. Binden Shovel:I have recently published a book on Amazon.com called Churchill’s Secret Skills. I read Churchill’s WW2 memoirs twice as part of the research all 8000 pages. It is interesting to look back at a raid like Dresden from a modern perspective, it is understandably why German’s would see it as a war crime and equally understandable why the former Allies would have seen it as a necessary part of War.
Jun 9, 2009 - 5:17 am 95. Barry 0351:Churchill always promised that the Nazi regime would be paid back for the indiscriminate bombing of London and there cities in the early part of the war. In addition you have to remember that at the time Britain was suffering indiscriminate bombing from the V1 rocket.
Churchill didn’t want any more Dresden type raids because he said there would be nothing left to liberate if the Allies continued with such attacks.
It wasn’t the people of Germany or Dresden that brought on the raid it was the Nazi regime, the same regime that murdered millions of Jews and who had no concern for the ordinary German people.
The people of Dresden were victims of the Nazi’s in the same way as the millions of people across Europe who died at their evil hand. It was the Nazi’s who by their actions lead the allies to undertake the raid.
it is just completely wrong to try and blame the Allies for prosecuting the war to the best of their advantage when they had the chance. If Hitler had been in the same position he would acted far worse.
Dates to remember when talking about Dresden.
Jun 9, 2009 - 6:34 am 96. Barry 0351:1. September 1, 1939 Germany invades Poland.
2. December 7 1941 American forces attacked by Japan and Germany declares war on USA.
Seems clear to me Dresden was the fault of the Japanese who attacked us and Germany who declared war on America. The key phrase here is, Attacked USA and DECLARED WAR ON USA The Axis started it and now want to blame us for fighting and finishing it. Much as the Islamist are doing today.
Germany declared war on America not the other way around ya gets what ya pay for.
Jun 9, 2009 - 6:37 am 97. logdon:As a subject of the nation which was responsible I have no qualms at all.
During our close call in the Battle of Britain Hitler diverted his bombers to British cities. They were well and truly ravaged. However, this ensured our survival as the RAF was granted breathing space, regrouped and built our offensive bomber force to repay the debt.
No decisions were taken lightly but Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris’s view was that by pummeling German cities by night coupled with US raids on strategic targets by day would ensure victory.
We had all to lose, our very nation was at stake.
As the tactic grew so did the methods of execution and by Dresden the combination of HE, punching holes through rooftops, followed by incendiaries which ignited the dry timbers was perfected. Cologne, Frankfurt, Berlin and Hamburg all suffered similar fates.
Was Dresden a War Crime? I could give the Obama answer to another question, we won. Quite simple really.
The Germans called these ‘Terror Raids’ but they would, wouldn’t they?
Meanwhile the real horror of the camps was neatly brushed aside and verboten in conversation. They knew yet chose to remain silent as six million Jewish lives were deliberately and horrificaly extinguished.
The old cliche ‘war is hell’ comes to mind but it’s a lot more hellish for those on the receiving end. Did those Dresdeners give one hoot for Jewish lives? Those Jews on the receiving end of Nazi hate?
Obama is an arriviste know nothing outside his own Alinsky sphere. Our own PM, Brown suffers a similar gap in his knowledge. (Obama Beach?)
Two sides of the same coin. Fortunately ours is on the way out whilst yours has three years to go.
Get used to it, then get rid.
Jun 9, 2009 - 6:41 am 98. njcommuter:I think the open moral question is whether it was justified to bomb with the deliberate intention of creating a firestorm rather than just targetting the rail yards and industry with high explosive.
To create the firestorm the bombing was carried out in three stages: high explosive to rip open the largely wooden buildings and expose dry wood, fragmentation bombs to kill first responders (firefighters) and destroy their apparatus, and incendieries (white phosphorus, I believe) to start fires which could not be extinguished.
The moral question is whether this clearly exceeded the necessary cruelties of war.
A further political question has been raised by the claim (I forget where I read it, and don’t know how credible it is) that Dresden was already slated to be handed to the USSR and Stalin had asked the USA and Britain to be brutal in their bombing so that the people of Dresden would look more favorably to Soviet domination.
Jun 9, 2009 - 8:45 am 99. Jacques Tati:Bohemond at comment 8 gets it exactly right. Dresden was a military target. The idea that the Allies’ goal was to kill civilians is a lie perpetuated by leftists and pro-German revisionists. The number of civilians who were killed has been inflated, too, from 25,000 to over 250,000.
Jun 9, 2009 - 9:38 am 100. Jacques Tati:njcommuter (comment 98): if you look at the very limited success – or, one might say more simply, the frequent failure – of bombings of German industry without incendiaries, and if you consider how many people were going to die if bombings did not halt German industry, I think there is no “open moral question.”
I think your concern is good, but the use of incendiaries was not only appropriate but actually the better option in terms of saving lives.
Jun 9, 2009 - 9:50 am 101. Dave:I think it is fair to have a academic and strategic analysis of the bombing of Dresden. It is how we learn and get better.
But let’s be honest. This is not about understanding and learning from WWII. We have long since learned these lessons and an American repeat of Dresden would not happen today – as would a repeat of the Holocaust not happen in Germany today. It is about Germans getting to offload some guilt and play victim and an opportunity for American leftists (Obama) to weaken American self identity so they can rebuild it as they see fit. For our wannabe overlords and these Germans, it feels like a win win. For patriotic, freedom loving Americans, not so much.
Jun 9, 2009 - 9:58 am 102. Stephen:JFM (#92): Right. Of course, it is Weeks, the reviewer, not Taylor, the author of “Dresden”, who makes the claim, at the outset of review, with which you take issue. I believe you are right to assert that aerial bombardment did not result in the majority of civilian casualties. The list you cite makes a strong argument.
Jun 9, 2009 - 12:11 pm 103. David:I consider what the Germans people went through to be pure terror. First, the start of the war. Why? The British declared war against the Germans when they were in the process of trying to reclaim there country lost in WWI. This is stated very simple. Second, Britain then attacks Berlin. Then gets mad when the Germans do the same to London. Third, not only was Dresden fire bombed and the civilians targeted, but the refugees were machineguned by Allied planes as they tried to flee. You could go on, The US was not a saint and provoked much of the problems.
Jun 9, 2009 - 12:51 pm 104. Meryl:I am imagining that there’s a newly created position now existing in every American Embassy around the world.
It’s the desk that folks from that country can go to sign up to request an apology tour from Soetero.
The form they fill out has questions related to their grievance, whether or not it occurred before his birth, what form they would like the apology to take, the location at which to apologize, whether special religious language or clothing is required, etc.
Then, along with the apology, there is a jackpot prize presented (at Soetero’s discretion) that may involve anything up to and including nuclear bombs for their country; so that, in the future, instead of waiting for an apology they can just exact their pound of flesh directly from the United States, by hostage-taking, threats or flat out attack.
Once expedited, this new and more fair procedure will cut the waiting time for apologies and also, in the long run, reduce the need for apologies because all of our enemies will have had opportunity to damage us almost immediately, when they are offended, instead of having to wait for a state visit and stuff.
Jun 9, 2009 - 1:30 pm 105. Meryl:“similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal”
Hey, Junior, I had to read that line twice to get it in context.
My first take was that it was a reminder warning all babes in their mothers’ wombs, that they could not relax until AFTER the cord was cut and they heard friendly voices and felt a diaper being put on their little bottoms.
Jun 9, 2009 - 1:38 pm 106. JFM:Mr David or should I say Adolf?
You are a pathological liar. Gerùany had occupied not only Sudeten land but also Praga. And when Britain declared war on Poland, German troops were well outside the Danzig corridor.
Second, it was the Germans who first attacked London. They also had set fore to Rotterdam.
Third: Yeah right, fighters abandonning their bombers to strafe and their pilots not being court martialled the moment they landed. Sure. And in case a bullet or the tinistest piece of shrapnel punctures their vulnerable cooling circuitry (Mustang engines were water cooled) it was only 600 miles before the next friendly base. Sure. Did I mention that the Germans dhad no qualms about straffing French refugees in 1940?
Fourth: You forget to mention that Soviet troops had been encouraged by their government to “break the racial pride of the German woman”. Or the German civilians nailed to the doors of their houses.
Fifth: You forgot to fault the Jews of provoking Hitler until he ordered the Final Solution.
Jun 9, 2009 - 3:25 pm 107. Marie Claude:Barry 0351:
The US fought Germany after that Churchill made tens of trips to Washington trying to convice Roosvelt to open a 2nd front in North Africa (at the request of Stalin who need a break, for all the german forces were concentrated at the eastern front) to divert the german forces from the European continent, thus allowing the Alliees to get ready for a Dday in Normandy
though intervening on the European front wasn’t Roosvelt priorities, Asian front was much more preocupating, besides
On 24 June 1941, ie two days after the beginning of the Nazi invasion in the Soviet Union, Harry S. Truman (who, in 1945, became president of the United States) wrote in The New York Times: “If we see that Russia is the winner, we will help Germany. If Germany wins, we will help Russia. Let them killeach others as much as they can.
Jun 9, 2009 - 3:46 pm 108. Dave Surls:“I consider what the Germans people went through to be pure terror.”
Bummer for ‘em.
“In addition to about three million Polish Jews (mostly killed in Operation Reinhard), 2.5 million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war. Over two million were ethnic Poles (the remaining 500,000 were mainly ethnic minority Ukrainians and Belarusians living in Poland). The majority of those killed by Nazi Germany were civilians (exceeding military deaths nearly 10:1).[1][2]”
“From the start of the war against Poland, Germany intended to realize the plan laid-out by the Nazi leader Adolf Hitler in his 1926 book Mein Kampf. The aim of this plan was to turn Eastern Europe into part of greater Germany, the so-called German Lebensraum (”living space”).”
“About 150,000 Polish civilians were killed during the one-month September Campaign, characterised by the indiscriminate and often deliberate targeting of civilians by the invading forces of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Many of the them were killed in the Luftwaffe’s terror bombing operations (including the bombing of Frampol and Wieluń). Massive air raids were conducted on these towns which had no military infrastructure. Columns of fleeing refugees were systematically attacked by the German fighter and dive-bomber aircraft.”
“From the first day of the war, the round-ups and summary executions of Poles commenced by Wehrchmacht, SS and Selbstschutch. They had already started in Germany before the war had begun. Several thousand Polish POWs were also murdered…”
More…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles
Like they say…You reap what you sow, what comes around goes around, payback is a bitch…etc., etc.
Jun 9, 2009 - 3:53 pm 109. SukieTawdry:Well, junior, if I managed to offend you, good for me.
Jun 9, 2009 - 5:43 pm 110. JFM:Dave Suris
Just to add that while discussing Lebensaraum Hitler made well clear that Germany would have to depopulate conquered regions in order to make room for German settlers.
Jun 10, 2009 - 3:15 am 111. Bohemond:I would also add that there was no such thing as ‘precision bombing’ (from level bombers) in WWII. The USAAF, working in daylight and equipped with the advanced Norden bombsight, nonetheless had a Circular Error Probable (the radius of the circle within which 50% of the bombs can be expected to fall) of 1000 meters- that’s a circle of 2km diameter. In practical terms, that meant that to hit one 100×25-foot factory building, 9000 bombs would have to be expended, plastering everything within a kilometer of the target, with further damage at random farther out than that.
Don’t forget that the carpet-bombing attack on Panzer Lehr which opened Operation Cobra killed hundreds of GI’s with misses.
And that’s the Americans.
The British, operating perforce at night since their bombers had few guns, and their fighters lacked the range to escort them, and moreover lacking a bombsight equivalent to the Norden, had a CEP measured in *miles*. In other words, an entire city was the smallest target Bomber Command could meaningfully aim at. The best they could do was aim for the middle and hope most of the bombs would hit within the city limits.
(The highly-trained and specially equipped No. 617 ’special missions’ squadron, the Dambusters, is the exception that proves the rule here).
Jun 10, 2009 - 7:30 am 112. poetcomic1:Lest we forget,”…it has been estimated that 15,000 extermination and concentration camps were established in the Nazi German occupied countries, not including small camps created ad hoc for the local population.” Also, every town had its gestapo prisons and torture chambers, there are many hundreds of ditches and ravines and ‘killing fields’ besides. There was also slave laborers in the millions in Germany itself working in the fields, factories, marching starved and dazed about among the German people and in full view. What an incredible HELL Germany created out of Europe. Dresden? Boo-effing-hoo.
Jun 10, 2009 - 8:59 am 113. JFM:Mrs Marie Claude
In 1941 harry Truman was basically a Mr Nothing. He wasn’t vice-president, merely a senator and not a senior one at that (ie had little influence).
Also, this text is from June 24th, 1941, written the day before. I remind you that the Final Solution was decided at the Wansee conference in 1942. That major atrocities against civilians and mass slaughter of Jews began with the invasion of Soviet Union that is one day before Truman wrote that text.
That with the information he had at that time, pedople could be forgiven for not seeing why Soviet Union should be considered the”good guy”: both Nazi Germany and Soviet Unijn had invaded their neighbours, both had attacked Poland with Soviet Unin stabbing it in the back just like Italy did to France in 1940, both had plans of world domination, Soviet Union had helped Nazi Germany n the invasion of France by providing raw materials, oil and other resources to Nazi war industry and through French Communist Party’s action against French Army’s morale, its equipments and French war industry. If anything, basing on what was known June 23, 1941 Hitler was the less bad guy: even after considering he ruled a smaller population he had killed less people in 8 years than Stalin had in a single of his half dozen purges.
Jun 10, 2009 - 11:56 am 114. Stephen:To Marie Claude (from Atlantic Review?) and JFM:
Truman seems a bit off topic: Dresden and all. However, Truman’s 24 June, 1941, comment seems to me an authentic reflection of the isolationism with respect to Europe that Roosevelt faced in the country as a whole prior 7 December, 1941. The fact that Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had signed a nonaggression pact, which to many seemed to contribute to the war’s outbreak, was seen by many at the time as good reason to wish a pox on both houses – as Truman clearly intended – and seemed to confirm the wisdom of standing apart from Europe and its never ending warfare.
It should also be noted that prior to the institution of a general draft in May, 1941. The US Army numbered probably less than 150,000: a small professional core.
Jun 10, 2009 - 7:05 pm 115. Stephen:Correction: A general draft was instituted in May, 1940 not 1941.
Jun 10, 2009 - 7:18 pm 116. oldguy:The point of Bomber Harris’ raid over Dresden was to kill Germans. Nothing else mattered. This is what aircraft are used for during any war. The Eight airforce tried pinpoint bombing and it cost them dearly.
Jun 11, 2009 - 8:46 am 117. D. Jones:Consider also the firebomb raids over Japan, especially over Tokyo. You don’t hear the Japanese whine and cry anywhere near what the people of Deutshland do. They simply accepted responsibility for what they started.
The only thing the Germans regret about World War II was that they didn’t win it.
Jun 11, 2009 - 9:45 am 118. COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN:Marc Malone
Jun 11, 2009 - 12:50 pm 119. COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN:#93
I truly love your last line…well put, sir !!!
S/M
Marc Malone
Sorry, I was referring to your post #90.
Jun 11, 2009 - 12:51 pm 120. ADVIL:S.M.
I was in Dresden when Obama was there. I am a Romanian.
I listened and then read his speech there and now I’m searching for articles on this. I find confusing the fact that all web sites refer to the american “crimes” with inverted commas. Indeed, the nazis had a huge number of victims (though the highest number of victims belongs to Stalin) and were well-known for their cruelties and rasism, but it’s important not to deny the fact that war itself turns man into animal and all the grotesque features of the human being are revealed and used in situations when chaos is around. The Allied troops make no exception. Indeed, we feel grateful that you stopped the regime of a mad man, but don’t lie to yourselves that your soldiers can’t or didn’t become criminals during the war. They all made mistakes, they all lost their humanity, the fact that the nazis were more indoctrinated makes no difference. You have the remains of your crimes to bare too. We’re all humans. Wrong were not the soldiers (be they american or german), wrong were those who ruled and declared war.
I await a response.
Jun 11, 2009 - 3:11 pm 121. ADVIL:Moreover, I’ve seen that city. well, a quite big part of it. And it’s amazing… Also, I’ve done some research; Dresden was one of the biggest cultural baroque cities, and what I believe that is an Ally crime, is the fact that what was considered a thread in that city (some ammunition deposits and factories) was situated far on the outskirts of the city and was the least attacked!! Instead, the cultural center (where about 40.000 civilian died) was heavily bombed. And walking through the city, I’ve seen numerous buildings blackened by the flames, but still rebuilt, restored, brought back to part of their original beauty.
And someone said that the “germans only regret that they didn’t won the war”. Talking to them (some germans), I drew the conclusion that they’re as happy as you are for the defeat of the nazi regime. Who said that above probably doesn’t know that Hitler (an Austrian) damaged not only the people of the conquered countries, but also his beloved fellow germans. Only one race was supreme for him, the Aryan one (he, himself was not one). But, in his sick mind, all that was “imperfect” for the German image had to be clensed. Therefore he ordered the death of thousands of GERMAN jews, gipsies, mute, deaf, handicaped, etc…or their forced sterilization (so that the “imperfect” germans couldn’t breed), torture, sent to the concentration camps, made experiments upon..etc.. In the end, for Hitler’s madness, Germany suffered too.
Read again my comment above, #120 and understand that you can never state that, in this case, your country’s army was guilty of no crimes, because, by saying that, you probably believe that it’s soldiers are more than humans and you must be as mad as Hitler. Admit your guilt alongside with the others.
Jun 11, 2009 - 3:45 pm 122. Marie Claude:JFM, none knew Stalin crimes in 1941, even the US who were providing him finances and technicians to manufacture his tanks. Also the slaughtering of the Jews wasn’t either known too, and certainly not from Truman. Though from. 1942 the alliees knew, but it didn’t become their main worry for so.
Stalin described the situation in the 6 November 1942. The Battle of Stalingrad is in full swing. “How to explain that this year the Germans were still able to maintain its leadership of military operations and reap serious tactical success on our forehead? The Germans and their allies were able to gather all their reserves available for hire on the Eastern front. This was possible because there was no second front in Europe. In September, the 256 German divisions, at least 179 were taken on our front. Include Romanian divisions 22, 14 Finland, 10 Italy, 13 Hungarian, Slovak and 1 Spanish 1 and you get a total of 240 divisions which are currently fighting on our front. By against, on the Libyan front, for the moment, only 4 and 11 German divisions in Italy fighting the British. “
The Germans up to 1942 were victorious, thus the American help to Stalin (ie Truman’s sentence) and I don’t think Stalin was considered as the good guy but an opportunity to make businesses with him. Only Churchill was aware of the stakes (De Gaulle probably too, but he hadn’t the opportunity to express it).
For Churchill it was evident that the Soviets were helping in the fight of the Nazis that still bombed UK. A defeat of Russia was the worst scenario for him, this is why he “harrassed” Roosvelt to get involved on this side of the pond too. In june 1942 churchill finally got a positive response from Roosvelt. the Storm operation was decided for november 1942
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sga/content/download/46012/457602/file/n29_-_operation_torch_8_novembre_1942_mc29.pdf
Also, when the soviets started to win battles, a counter western occupation of the land was an obligation too. A communist Europe wasn’t better seen than the nazi europe in his eyes. So he used the soviets, but without America he wouldn’t have been able to contain them.
It’s only at the Casablanca conference in january 1943 that Dday was decided for 194a
One can say that Europe was already partaged between, first by Stalin and Hitler, then between by Stalin and Roosvelt.
Jun 11, 2009 - 4:59 pm 123. Marie Claude:Stephen, I agree with what you wrote, and, I’m afraid, yes I’m that MC too
Jun 11, 2009 - 5:01 pm 124. JFM:Marie Claude
First of all, Thpose who really cared had at least some idea of the magnitude of communist crimes (they began with Lenin, you know) through some books written by refugees and of the opressive nature of the regime through people who had vsited Moscow and despite Inturist’s best efforts had managed to perceive a glimpse of the reality. Of course western communist parties, fellow travelers and useful idiots had often managed to silence ththose voices telling the truh
Second of all: if Britan hadn’t been at war with Germany it is not sure that Churchill would have been so eager to help Soviet Union.
Third of all: In case you haven’t noticed in 1941, the United States wasn’t selling but “lending” weapons to the countries fighting Nazism and the in 1940 it had been selling weaponry through the Cash and Carry Act, who effectively banned the side havuing teh weakest Navy from buying American weapons.
Fourth of all: What you are faulting America and Truman for, was exactly what France has done after 1958: telling there was no less bad guy and selling anything (its sould included) to the hifghest bidder. That was the basis of gaullist policy.
Jun 11, 2009 - 10:59 pm 125. The Editrix:“I consider what the Germans people went through to be pure terror. First, the start of the war. Why? The British declared war against the Germans when they were in the process of trying to reclaim there country lost in WWI. This is stated very simple. Second, Britain then attacks Berlin. Then gets mad when the Germans do the same to London. Third, not only was Dresden fire bombed and the civilians targeted, but the refugees were machineguned by Allied planes as they tried to flee. You could go on, The US was not a saint and provoked much of the problems.”
Yes. And the biggest injustice of all is that Bubba Adolf hasn’t gotten the Nobel Peace Prize yet.
Jun 12, 2009 - 1:24 am 126. Marie Claude:JFM, no foreigner was allowed to travel by him/herself in Sovietlands, a “guide” was following him/her everywhere, until the eighties. Only good looking things were shown.
Of course books have been written, but they weren’t available ; may-be leaders of communists parties in western countries knew about what was going on, but they didn’t tell to their members ; it’s evident for the french communists, only when Soljenitsyne managed to edit his book, that the people awaked, first the intellectuals, and the stars (Simone Signoret & Yves Montant, Picasso…)
and you’re lucky if you manage to know before them !
2nd point, did I say something else ?
3rd point , explain
4th, am I ?
5th, give me one advanced western industriallised coutry name that hadn’t done that ?
Jun 12, 2009 - 2:08 am 127. ADVIL:Agree with The Editrix.
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:24 pm