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	<title>Comments on: In Dresden, Obama Does Not Disappoint &#8230; Germans</title>
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		<title>By: ADVIL</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-284755</link>
		<dc:creator>ADVIL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Agree with The Editrix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with The Editrix.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Claude</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-283835</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Claude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-283835</guid>
		<description>JFM,  no foreigner was allowed to travel by him/herself in Sovietlands, a &quot;guide&quot; was following him/her everywhere, until the eighties. Only good looking things were shown. 

Of course books have been written, but they weren&#039;t available ; may-be leaders of communists parties in western countries knew about what was going on, but they didn&#039;t tell to their members ; it&#039;s evident for the french communists, only when Soljenitsyne  managed to edit his book, that the people awaked, first the intellectuals, and the stars (Simone Signoret &amp; Yves Montant, Picasso...)

and you&#039;re lucky if you manage to know before them !

2nd point, did I say something else ?

3rd point , explain 

4th, am I ? 

5th, give me one advanced western industriallised coutry name that hadn&#039;t done that ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JFM,  no foreigner was allowed to travel by him/herself in Sovietlands, a &#8220;guide&#8221; was following him/her everywhere, until the eighties. Only good looking things were shown. </p>
<p>Of course books have been written, but they weren&#8217;t available ; may-be leaders of communists parties in western countries knew about what was going on, but they didn&#8217;t tell to their members ; it&#8217;s evident for the french communists, only when Soljenitsyne  managed to edit his book, that the people awaked, first the intellectuals, and the stars (Simone Signoret &amp; Yves Montant, Picasso&#8230;)</p>
<p>and you&#8217;re lucky if you manage to know before them !</p>
<p>2nd point, did I say something else ?</p>
<p>3rd point , explain </p>
<p>4th, am I ? </p>
<p>5th, give me one advanced western industriallised coutry name that hadn&#8217;t done that ?</p>
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		<title>By: The Editrix</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-283777</link>
		<dc:creator>The Editrix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-283777</guid>
		<description>&quot;I consider what the Germans people went through to be pure terror. First, the start of the war. Why? The British declared war against the Germans when they were in the process of trying to reclaim there country lost in WWI. This is stated very simple. Second, Britain then attacks Berlin. Then gets mad when the Germans do the same to London. Third, not only was Dresden fire bombed and the civilians targeted, but the refugees were machineguned by Allied planes as they tried to flee. You could go on, The US was not a saint and provoked much of the problems.&quot;

Yes. And the biggest injustice of all is that Bubba Adolf hasn&#039;t gotten the Nobel Peace Prize yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I consider what the Germans people went through to be pure terror. First, the start of the war. Why? The British declared war against the Germans when they were in the process of trying to reclaim there country lost in WWI. This is stated very simple. Second, Britain then attacks Berlin. Then gets mad when the Germans do the same to London. Third, not only was Dresden fire bombed and the civilians targeted, but the refugees were machineguned by Allied planes as they tried to flee. You could go on, The US was not a saint and provoked much of the problems.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes. And the biggest injustice of all is that Bubba Adolf hasn&#8217;t gotten the Nobel Peace Prize yet.</p>
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		<title>By: JFM</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-283605</link>
		<dc:creator>JFM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 05:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-283605</guid>
		<description>Marie Claude

First of all,  Thpose who really cared had at least some idea of the magnitude of communist crimes (they began with Lenin, you know) through some books written by refugees and of the opressive nature of the regime through people who had vsited Moscow and despite Inturist&#039;s best efforts had managed to perceive a glimpse of the reality.  Of course western communist parties, fellow travelers and useful idiots had often managed to silence ththose voices telling the truh

Second of all:  if Britan hadn&#039;t been at war with Germany it is not sure that Churchill would have been so eager to help Soviet Union.

Third of all:  In case you haven&#039;t noticed in 1941, the United States wasn&#039;t selling but &quot;lending&quot; weapons to the countries fighting Nazism and the in 1940 it had been selling weaponry through the Cash and Carry Act, who effectively banned the side havuing teh weakest Navy from buying American weapons.

Fourth of all: What you are faulting America and Truman for, was exactly what France has done after 1958: telling there was no less bad guy and selling anything (its sould included) to the hifghest bidder.  That was the basis of gaullist policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marie Claude</p>
<p>First of all,  Thpose who really cared had at least some idea of the magnitude of communist crimes (they began with Lenin, you know) through some books written by refugees and of the opressive nature of the regime through people who had vsited Moscow and despite Inturist&#8217;s best efforts had managed to perceive a glimpse of the reality.  Of course western communist parties, fellow travelers and useful idiots had often managed to silence ththose voices telling the truh</p>
<p>Second of all:  if Britan hadn&#8217;t been at war with Germany it is not sure that Churchill would have been so eager to help Soviet Union.</p>
<p>Third of all:  In case you haven&#8217;t noticed in 1941, the United States wasn&#8217;t selling but &#8220;lending&#8221; weapons to the countries fighting Nazism and the in 1940 it had been selling weaponry through the Cash and Carry Act, who effectively banned the side havuing teh weakest Navy from buying American weapons.</p>
<p>Fourth of all: What you are faulting America and Truman for, was exactly what France has done after 1958: telling there was no less bad guy and selling anything (its sould included) to the hifghest bidder.  That was the basis of gaullist policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Claude</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-283126</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Claude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-283126</guid>
		<description>Stephen, I agree with what you wrote, and, I&#039;m afraid, yes I&#039;m that MC too :lol:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, I agree with what you wrote, and, I&#8217;m afraid, yes I&#8217;m that MC too <img src='http://pajamasmedia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Marie Claude</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-283122</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Claude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-283122</guid>
		<description>JFM, none knew Stalin crimes in 1941, even the US who were providing him finances and technicians to manufacture his tanks. Also the slaughtering of the Jews wasn&#039;t either known too, and certainly not from Truman. Though from. 1942 the alliees knew, but it didn&#039;t become their main worry for so. 

&lt;i&gt;Stalin described the situation in the 6 November 1942. The Battle of Stalingrad is in full swing. &quot;How to explain that this year the Germans were still able to maintain its leadership of military operations and reap serious tactical success on our forehead? The Germans and their allies were able to gather all their reserves available for hire on the Eastern front. This was possible because there was no second front in Europe. In September, the 256 German divisions, at least 179 were taken on our front. Include Romanian divisions 22, 14 Finland, 10 Italy, 13 Hungarian, Slovak and 1 Spanish 1 and you get a total of 240 divisions which are currently fighting on our front. By against, on the Libyan front, for the moment, only 4 and 11 German divisions in Italy fighting the British. &quot;&lt;/i&gt;

The Germans up to 1942 were victorious, thus the American help to Stalin (ie Truman&#039;s sentence) and I don&#039;t think Stalin was considered as the good guy but an opportunity to make businesses with him. Only Churchill was aware of the stakes (De Gaulle probably too, but he hadn&#039;t the opportunity to express it). 

For Churchill it was evident that the Soviets were helping in the fight of the Nazis that still bombed UK. A defeat of Russia was the worst scenario for him, this is why he &quot;harrassed&quot; Roosvelt to get involved on this side of the pond too. In june 1942 churchill finally got a positive response from Roosvelt. the Storm operation was decided for november 1942

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sga/content/download/46012/457602/file/n29_-_operation_torch_8_novembre_1942_mc29.pdf

Also, when the soviets started to win battles, a counter western occupation of the land was an obligation too. A communist Europe wasn&#039;t better seen than the nazi europe in his eyes. So he used the soviets, but without America he wouldn&#039;t have been able to contain them.

It&#039;s only at the Casablanca conference in january 1943 that Dday was decided for 194a

One can say that Europe was already partaged between, first by Stalin and Hitler, then between by Stalin and Roosvelt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JFM, none knew Stalin crimes in 1941, even the US who were providing him finances and technicians to manufacture his tanks. Also the slaughtering of the Jews wasn&#8217;t either known too, and certainly not from Truman. Though from. 1942 the alliees knew, but it didn&#8217;t become their main worry for so. </p>
<p><i>Stalin described the situation in the 6 November 1942. The Battle of Stalingrad is in full swing. &#8220;How to explain that this year the Germans were still able to maintain its leadership of military operations and reap serious tactical success on our forehead? The Germans and their allies were able to gather all their reserves available for hire on the Eastern front. This was possible because there was no second front in Europe. In September, the 256 German divisions, at least 179 were taken on our front. Include Romanian divisions 22, 14 Finland, 10 Italy, 13 Hungarian, Slovak and 1 Spanish 1 and you get a total of 240 divisions which are currently fighting on our front. By against, on the Libyan front, for the moment, only 4 and 11 German divisions in Italy fighting the British. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>The Germans up to 1942 were victorious, thus the American help to Stalin (ie Truman&#8217;s sentence) and I don&#8217;t think Stalin was considered as the good guy but an opportunity to make businesses with him. Only Churchill was aware of the stakes (De Gaulle probably too, but he hadn&#8217;t the opportunity to express it). </p>
<p>For Churchill it was evident that the Soviets were helping in the fight of the Nazis that still bombed UK. A defeat of Russia was the worst scenario for him, this is why he &#8220;harrassed&#8221; Roosvelt to get involved on this side of the pond too. In june 1942 churchill finally got a positive response from Roosvelt. the Storm operation was decided for november 1942</p>
<p><a href="http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sga/content/download/46012/457602/file/n29_-_operation_torch_8_novembre_1942_mc29.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sga/content/download/46012/457602/file/n29_-_operation_torch_8_novembre_1942_mc29.pdf</a></p>
<p>Also, when the soviets started to win battles, a counter western occupation of the land was an obligation too. A communist Europe wasn&#8217;t better seen than the nazi europe in his eyes. So he used the soviets, but without America he wouldn&#8217;t have been able to contain them.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s only at the Casablanca conference in january 1943 that Dday was decided for 194a</p>
<p>One can say that Europe was already partaged between, first by Stalin and Hitler, then between by Stalin and Roosvelt.</p>
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		<title>By: ADVIL</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-283021</link>
		<dc:creator>ADVIL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-283021</guid>
		<description>Moreover, I&#039;ve seen that city. well, a quite big part of it. And it&#039;s amazing... Also, I&#039;ve done some research; Dresden was one of the biggest cultural baroque cities, and what I believe that is an Ally crime, is the fact that what was considered a thread in that city (some ammunition deposits and factories) was situated far on the outskirts of the city and was the least attacked!! Instead, the cultural center (where about 40.000 civilian died) was heavily bombed. And walking through the city, I&#039;ve seen numerous buildings blackened by the flames, but still rebuilt, restored, brought back to part of their original beauty.

And someone said that the &quot;germans only regret that they didn&#039;t won the war&quot;. Talking to them (some germans), I drew the conclusion that they&#039;re as happy as you are for the defeat of the nazi regime. Who said that above probably doesn&#039;t know that Hitler (an Austrian) damaged not only the people of the conquered countries, but also his beloved fellow germans. Only one race was supreme for him, the Aryan one (he, himself was not one). But, in his sick mind, all that was &quot;imperfect&quot; for the German image had to be clensed. Therefore he ordered the death of thousands of GERMAN jews, gipsies, mute, deaf, handicaped, etc...or their forced sterilization (so that the &quot;imperfect&quot; germans couldn&#039;t breed), torture, sent to the concentration camps, made experiments upon..etc.. In the end, for Hitler&#039;s madness, Germany suffered too.

Read again my comment above, #120 and understand that you can never state that, in this case, your country&#039;s army was guilty of no crimes, because, by saying that, you probably believe that it&#039;s soldiers are more than humans and you must be as mad as Hitler. Admit your guilt alongside with the others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moreover, I&#8217;ve seen that city. well, a quite big part of it. And it&#8217;s amazing&#8230; Also, I&#8217;ve done some research; Dresden was one of the biggest cultural baroque cities, and what I believe that is an Ally crime, is the fact that what was considered a thread in that city (some ammunition deposits and factories) was situated far on the outskirts of the city and was the least attacked!! Instead, the cultural center (where about 40.000 civilian died) was heavily bombed. And walking through the city, I&#8217;ve seen numerous buildings blackened by the flames, but still rebuilt, restored, brought back to part of their original beauty.</p>
<p>And someone said that the &#8220;germans only regret that they didn&#8217;t won the war&#8221;. Talking to them (some germans), I drew the conclusion that they&#8217;re as happy as you are for the defeat of the nazi regime. Who said that above probably doesn&#8217;t know that Hitler (an Austrian) damaged not only the people of the conquered countries, but also his beloved fellow germans. Only one race was supreme for him, the Aryan one (he, himself was not one). But, in his sick mind, all that was &#8220;imperfect&#8221; for the German image had to be clensed. Therefore he ordered the death of thousands of GERMAN jews, gipsies, mute, deaf, handicaped, etc&#8230;or their forced sterilization (so that the &#8220;imperfect&#8221; germans couldn&#8217;t breed), torture, sent to the concentration camps, made experiments upon..etc.. In the end, for Hitler&#8217;s madness, Germany suffered too.</p>
<p>Read again my comment above, #120 and understand that you can never state that, in this case, your country&#8217;s army was guilty of no crimes, because, by saying that, you probably believe that it&#8217;s soldiers are more than humans and you must be as mad as Hitler. Admit your guilt alongside with the others.</p>
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		<title>By: ADVIL</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-282965</link>
		<dc:creator>ADVIL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-282965</guid>
		<description>I was in Dresden when Obama was there. I am a Romanian. 
I listened and then read his speech there and now I&#039;m searching for articles on this. I find confusing the fact that all web sites refer to the american &quot;crimes&quot; with inverted commas. Indeed, the nazis had a huge number of victims (though the highest number of victims belongs to Stalin) and were well-known for their cruelties and rasism, but it&#039;s important not to deny the fact that war itself turns man into animal and all the grotesque features of the human being are revealed and used in situations when chaos is around. The Allied troops make no exception. Indeed, we feel grateful that you stopped the regime of a mad man, but don&#039;t lie to yourselves that your soldiers can&#039;t or didn&#039;t become criminals during the war. They all made mistakes, they all lost their humanity, the fact that the nazis were more indoctrinated makes no difference. You have the remains of your crimes to bare too. We&#039;re all humans. Wrong were not the soldiers (be they american or german), wrong were those who ruled and declared war.

I await a response. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was in Dresden when Obama was there. I am a Romanian.<br />
I listened and then read his speech there and now I&#8217;m searching for articles on this. I find confusing the fact that all web sites refer to the american &#8220;crimes&#8221; with inverted commas. Indeed, the nazis had a huge number of victims (though the highest number of victims belongs to Stalin) and were well-known for their cruelties and rasism, but it&#8217;s important not to deny the fact that war itself turns man into animal and all the grotesque features of the human being are revealed and used in situations when chaos is around. The Allied troops make no exception. Indeed, we feel grateful that you stopped the regime of a mad man, but don&#8217;t lie to yourselves that your soldiers can&#8217;t or didn&#8217;t become criminals during the war. They all made mistakes, they all lost their humanity, the fact that the nazis were more indoctrinated makes no difference. You have the remains of your crimes to bare too. We&#8217;re all humans. Wrong were not the soldiers (be they american or german), wrong were those who ruled and declared war.</p>
<p>I await a response. <img src='http://pajamasmedia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-282727</link>
		<dc:creator>COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-282727</guid>
		<description>Marc Malone 

Sorry, I was referring to your post #90.
S.M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc Malone </p>
<p>Sorry, I was referring to your post #90.<br />
S.M.</p>
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		<title>By: COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/in-dresden-obama-does-not-disappoint-germans/comment-page-3/#comment-282725</link>
		<dc:creator>COL. SEBASTIAN MORAN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=58171#comment-282725</guid>
		<description>Marc Malone
#93
I truly love your last line...well put, sir !!!
S/M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc Malone<br />
#93<br />
I truly love your last line&#8230;well put, sir !!!<br />
S/M</p>
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