Pajamas Media

57 Comments

1. Ralf Grahn:

The Lisbon Treaty has the potential to make EU foreign policy somewhat more predictable and cohesive in the long run, but I would like to see anyone who seriously believes that it turns the European Union into a world actor capable of counterbalancing the USA.

In addition, the US and the EU are the likeliest allies in world affairs.

Oct 4, 2009 - 3:28 am 2. Anonymous:

“Ireland, which accounts for 1 percent of the European Union’s 500 million population, was the only one of the EU’s 27 member states to put the Lisbon Treaty to a public referendum”

this is requested by Ireland constitution !

President François Mitterrand, who feared a return of German hegemony, to search for a way to permanently anchor Germany within European institutions. Together with German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, who was keen to relieve misgivings in Paris and London about a reunified Germany, Mitterrand worked to transform the whole of Europe into an all-encompassing union.

Well, this was also Ms Thatcher’s worry (as unveiled by lately declassified documents in UK)

Now the deal that Mitterand opposed to his “intime” friend Kohl, was that Kohl abandonned the “deutsches Mark” for the forecasted EU money, which was still the “Ecu” by the time. As it was a big effort for Germany to renounce to its successful currency, the dream of reunifying the two germany was a more prevailing dear german dream.

I don’t know if Maestricht was sheduled for anihilating old bellicose german deamons, I doubt so, it was more forecasted in Brussels administration for more integration.

Though some of my german friends and forum correspondants are saying, take care of EU, this is our best assurance to not return to our instincts of dominance, as they are expressed by more persons nowadays, especially rooted in Bavaria and eastern Germany.

European strategists have long been frustrated by Europe’s inability to speak with one voice, a debilitating weakness that often neuters Europe’s economic and political weight on the global stage, especially vis-à-vis the United States.

yeah, may-be, but weren’t you saying that EU should get more involved in defense, especially against russian hegemony.

More specifically, the Lisbon Treaty is meant to avoid a repeat of European divisions in the lead up to the Iraq war, when France and Germany were frustrated in their attempts to present a unified European front to block the American invasion. At the time, a fair number of European countries broke ranks with France and Germany and joined the United States in a “coalition of the willing,” much to the anger of the Brussels elite.

Well, yes and no, the poblem was that US interferred in our processus of integration, when an EU army was on board by Germany and France, (UK was of the programmed deal too) An EU army would have ment that NATO had no justification anymore, (like Warsaw alliance collapsed at the end of the “cold war, Nato should have been dismentled), but problem, Bush was using NATO troops for his own wars. He was surfing on the desire of the eastern republics to join the western world, NATO was their first pass, and if these new converteds to western values wanted to be accepted, they had to follow the master of the games, therefore America.

Of course an EU army would have been more difficult to hire, because it implies that the “conflicts” are discussed, in commission, or in EU parliament, and opting to follow America into a war, would have been voted, a majority would decide ; so, not sure that a positive vote would have been the response.

This is why it was more convenient for the US to individually talk to each EU nation, and titilling some remnent dreams of certain of them to become partner of the american dream, for the others, interests of conserving good commercial alliances were the line. But this manipulation of the EU nations “egos” was contrary to the origin EU integration agendas.

This is also why France and Germany, that were the motor (and still are) of the EU organisation, couldn’t, but opposed to the american decision, and decided to not participate into Irak war, which wasn’t the urgent war to launch, but still opted for Afghanistan though, where problems were evident with Talebani training terrorists.

Though France participated to the first Irak war, we had not more interest in “desert storm” operation at the time though, but circonstances were different, there was not such a competion of influences in EU, Berlin wall just fall down, Russia was ruined… and Bush father was more diplomat.

By giving unelected EU bureaucrats jurisdiction over questions of war and peace, the Lisbon Treaty will usurp the national prerogatives of its member states on the use of military force. This will make it far more difficult for European allies to support the United States in unpopular wars in the future.

Not quite, European parliament will have more strengh, and its decisions will replace the commission decisions, up to now which weren’t democratic, while with Lisboa treaty, they will be more transparent and democratic.

He, yes, this will make it more difficult to follow America in its expeditions, America will have to make more efforts to convice a whole EU parliament of America rightful goals.

Oct 4, 2009 - 4:41 am 3. Marie Claude:

The EU has its origins in the Treaty of Rome (1957),

“The present EU builds on the cooperation which began with the establishment of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) back in 1952.”

http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/2/

In fact, the first agreement was between Germany and France, concocted by Jean Monnet with the annointment of FDR.

if you remember Versailles treaty, France regained Alsace and Lorraine, which were under Germany exploitation since 1870. Germans had developped mines and manufactures, so, some strong economical ties were still shared by german and local interests, that France carried on using after 1918, and renforced by the occupation of Sarland by France, where french interest got mixed with the existing german ones through common banks accounts.

So these “economical ties weren’t broken by WW2 but kinda “asleep” for winter-time (hibernation). When WW2 ended, the still shared ownings in these regions infrastructures were going to get a new life, but considering that 2 wars occured in a generation, then a more closed alliance was necessary so that theses economical reasons don’t suffer anymore from quarrels ending into a war, and that would make them easier to manage. This is the beginning of the EU, dreamed by Jean Monnet, the first “global government” initiator, with the agreement of the Alliees.

Oct 4, 2009 - 5:22 am 4. Poor Citizen:

There is no doubt that Europe went through a phase of anti europe unity for the last ten years or so. Many people were chuckling that europe would actually become a european america in the early nineties (the USE, united states of europe) and with the euro coming on…the laughing stopped, and nationalism shot up. However, Europe has now decided to return to common sense. It needs to link up, not because it needs to be american, but because it just makes good economic sense. And as good capalists know.. money…usually wins most debates. Good for Ireland.

Oct 4, 2009 - 5:57 am 5. David H:

I would like to ask the many real Americans who come here, those that would cross the Rhine in flimsy boats to save British soldiers, not the false ones like David S, Now and THne and Vivo.

Do you support a system of undemocratic rule, by unelected law makers within Europe so that you get that single voice as Europe, if you say yes then you are not the America that I thought you were…

As for me once the Lisbon treaty becomes into being I am in a state of rebellion as I do not accept to be ruled under such a tyranny!

Oct 4, 2009 - 7:29 am 6. Tom Perkins:

“when France and Germany were frustrated in their attempts to present a unified European front to block the American invasion”

Anonymous should present any evidence at all that France and Germany should decide Poland’s policies–especially when France and Germany just wanted to continue to stuff their treasuries with Saddam’s bloody oil money.

If Brussells wants to rule Europe, and Europeans are unintelligent enough to put up with it, fine. The next time the US has to pull their butts out of the fire they build, we should seize territory permanently. Twice is enough.

Oct 4, 2009 - 7:57 am 7. adnerb:

5. David H: My (American) instincts would resist such a consolidation of power, but it’s not for me to say what is in the best interest of people living in other countries. I personally don’t see how the EU can succeed in the long run, because people want their own national identities and Europe has so many. Local control, in my view, is always better than some centralized bureaucratic machine.

Oct 4, 2009 - 8:14 am 8. EscapeVelocity:

So Ireland spent a millenia under British thumbs, and spent centuries fighting them and struggling for independence, right up until a decade ago in Northern Ireland, just to cede independent sovereignty to the EUSSR?

Its like an Irish Joke or something?

The Northern Irish are lucky to still be under UK control, as it looks like they might be spared that fate.

Good Lord!

Oct 4, 2009 - 8:25 am 9. EscapeVelocity:

David H, let me direct you to what is in your future under the EU.

The American Civil War, which was fought to establish the supremacy of the Federal Government over the states….even though the States were in existance before the Federal Government and created it to be a confederation with limited powers….still maintaining the primacy of the States as sovereigns.

Surely eventually some state or group of states (likely the smaller states and their citizens who will be abused by teh largers states with the majority of people) will seek to leave the EU, and then you will see the true nature of the beast.

The Leviathon grows.

Oct 4, 2009 - 8:30 am 10. Marie Claude:

for some reason, my nic didn’t appear

Anonymous should present any evidence at all that France and Germany should decide Poland’s policies–especially when France and Germany just wanted to continue to stuff their treasuries with Saddam’s bloody oil money.

olright a 38 years old person knows all about policies, and want to lecture us how to conduct t’em ! LMAO

Poland is free to rejoin EU (or to become one of your X states), though you aren’t ready to care about it, remember how you abandonned Georgia, just that you still priviledge arms sales to t’em. France and Germany do not impose their own policies, my ignorant friend, this is where EU parliament is ment for, and d’ya know polish parliamentaires attend the congresses house too, and I also tell y’a, as a numerous population they have enough voices to be heard !

spare me you’re old fairy tales about Saddam, you were benefitting the most of the traffics, in the objective papers though, not in your opinionists articles, whose agendas were to deamonise us, even more that their true enemis

If Brussells wants to rule Europe, and Europeans are unintelligent enough to put up with it, fine. The next time the US has to pull their butts out of the fire they build, we should seize territory permanently. Twice is enough.

you didn’t understand anything, the purpose of Lisboa treaty is exactly the contrary of you’re telling, get back to school to decipherate EU policies, and make sure that your ears are clean !

Oct 4, 2009 - 9:16 am 11. Marie Claude:

8 escape-velocity,

hmmm, Irish aren’t stupid, they know that they need EU subventions, especially at the moment when their unemployment rate is one of the highests wth Spain.

Oct 4, 2009 - 9:19 am 12. ic:

Counterbalancing the US? Talking about setting their sights too low, we are meeting them half-way already. More counterbalancing will tilt the world over. If they stay put, in a couple of years, we’ll be the superweenie, just like them.

Oct 4, 2009 - 10:44 am 13. EscapeVelocity:

For some reason, Switzerland doesnt need the EU, yet Ireland does?

Rolls eyes.

Oct 4, 2009 - 10:57 am 14. Marie claude:

Escape, then givet’em your recept, clever man !

Oct 4, 2009 - 11:45 am 15. David H:

Marie Claude, the Irish attracted many multi-national corporations to Ireland working in finance and the like based on their low corporate tax rate. The Irish upper and middle class who fell for the fear mongering of the EU elites have made a grave error long term, the loss of a veto may well come back to haunt their job prospects in the future and quite frankly they deserve it. I just feel sorry for the poorer Irish who had the good sense to still vote no.

In terms of the future, the key question is what are the Tory party going to do. In terms of teh UK its national interest is getting out of this Socialist trap in terms of destroying the City of London, if teh Tories have any sense they will realise that for the UK getting out of the EU makes the most sense. I often think Brown made such a mess of the UK to lock the UK into Europe, however we were in the same level of mess in the late 70’s and Thatcher sorted that out over a period of time. But there are many of us that do not accept EU citizenship, I live in France and live by the rules in France with a Carte Sejour, but were Britain to leave and start sorting out the mess then I will return, I left Britain two years after Labour came to power.

I know the difference between the UK system and the Continetal system, its called rules based in terms of the EU and plain common sense in terms of the UK. There is much more than that, but its a start, but many of us are giving the politicians a bit of time, but if they do not take it then it will become violent, there is real anger about this in the UK, many of us feel this as a direct attack on our freedoms and this is quite frankly something that should not be discounted.

Oct 4, 2009 - 12:56 pm 16. David H:

This was posted as a comment in another site and makes a key point aboutthe British Constitution:

In the UK the people are sovereign. We know without doubt that neither the Government or Parliament are not longer “sovereign” because the ECJ can and have over-ruled them. We know, and the present UK Government know that the Government has NOT represented the vast majority of people in their decision to ratify they Treaty of Lisbon. 1) Because the people were promised a referendum on the Constitutional Treaty, (Lisbon is indeed constitutional) and 2) the Government know very well that the vast majority of people do not want any further integration into the EU and they particularly did not want their Government to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon at all. 3) because it is contrary to the people’s long standing Common Law Constitution, “That no foreign Prince, person prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have any jurisdiction, power superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm. 4) and finally it is completely contrary to the Oaths of Allegiance to the British Crown to which they all so swear on Oath before they take up their seats. Violation of that oath is the very essence of Treason, it is indeed the greatest betrayal of all.

Because of that betrayal and because of the people’s loyal and true allegiance to the Crown they must obviously, if “Lisbon” comes into force turn to their own constitution which perhaps should have always been left slumbering, though always “there” in the background for sadly once the people of the United Kingdom are woken from their slumber, their voices will be heard by many of the people in other Countries. Far better to have allowed the people their democratic say in a referendum for the British people WILL INDEED BE HEARD and never again will they allow themselves to be ignored. I quote our greatest Prime Minister , “We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not comprised. We are associated but not absorbed. And should European Statesmen address us and say, ‘Shall we speak for thee?’, we should reply, ‘Nay Sir, for we dwell among our own people”. Present day politicians have forgotten much of that, for we expected those we pay and voted for to speak for us but they simply ignored us all.

Oct 4, 2009 - 1:28 pm 17. Marie Claude:

David do you think that Ireland can survive all by itself ? you said that the multi-national corporations working in finance have gone elsewhere, I believe in Poland, then it says that Ireland has no power to create itself its own richnesses, that an external investors can bring in or take away whenever they think it’s convenient. Idem for UK, what can do UK alone or with Ireland ? do you know that most of the UK societies headquaters are settled around Brussels, they work with the Euro currencies, cuz most of their filiales are working with euros.

So isolation for both countries means that your businesses men will flee away quicker.

I am afraid there is no more solution than working with a bigger region, and Europe is inhabited with 500 millions persons, it’s the biggest market at the moment.

It’s not what we dreamed at the beginnings, but in a global world, this is still the best way to resist.

Besides check the whole world is more or less directed the same way now.

Oct 4, 2009 - 1:50 pm 18. EscapeVelocity:

So now the EU doesnt trade with anyone outside of the EU?

Switzerland is in big trouble!

Next up Taiwan cant survive without Red China!

LOL!

South Korea cant survive without North Korea!

Marie Claude is chomping at the bit to sell her soul and her countries soul into slavery and subjugation, homogenation for a quick buck.

Sad sacks.

Oct 4, 2009 - 4:01 pm 19. Nonner:

Hmm. Well, it’s going to be interesting to see how long this lasts.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but the periodic attempts to unify the Continent never seem to end well.

Oct 4, 2009 - 6:27 pm 20. Marie Claude:

Escape, not at all, I am aware of the stakes, that’s all !

Well switzerrland has already an agreement for trading and for the free circulation of the labour force, but it sstill remains the coffer of illegal furtunes

EU trades with anyone that can afford its prices

Oct 4, 2009 - 6:39 pm 21. deguello:

More statist fools voting for their own subjection. Multiply zero by any # of European states,and the result will be zero.Europe is finished.All this will do is make it easier for the Muslims to destroy the concentrated Euro leadership in one bold attack!Good luck to them!The Europeans need to be put out of their misery!

Oct 4, 2009 - 6:40 pm 22. deguello:

Ireland has tethered itself to a corpse!RIP EIRE!

Oct 4, 2009 - 6:42 pm 23. wondering:

I don’t think Ireland will be too happy in the not so distant future.
This quick fix will not hold any water.

Oct 4, 2009 - 8:49 pm 24. Greying Wanderer:

“In addition, the US and the EU are the likeliest allies in world affairs.”

Americans are in for a shock. The traitors who have built the EUSSR by stealth are profoundly anti-american.

Oct 4, 2009 - 9:10 pm 25. goy:

- The Lisbon Treaty will push the EU in a direction that should be deeply disconcerting to Americans and Europeans alike. The Lisbon Treaty will make Europe more centralized and far less democratic than it already is.

This is true, but it’s disconcerting primarily for America and Israel, since Europeans – well, perhaps all but Denmark – made their choices quite clear long ago. What’s more, it’s disconcerting for reasons that are quite different from those enumerated in this article. Understanding the reality down the road requires a little more thought.

Specifically, European demographics are not healthy. Europeans’ birth rates are down while that of its immigrant population is relatively high. And the reality is that Europe only has one significant immigrant population. In fact, the most recent data shows that Europe can only survive in the long term by either significantly increasing its fertility rates – a difficult task unless Europe abandons the socialist policies that led to these declines in the first place – or by attracting tens of millions of more immigrants.

So in the end, the most significant task the Lisbon Treaty accomplishes is to perform half the work of any future effort aimed at a global caliphate, at least as far as Europe is concerned. Lifting sharia law to the level of European federal law will be far, far easier than doing the same job one European country at a time, which is something we’ve been watching slowly happen already anyway. The Lisbon Treaty virtually guarantees that three or four generations down the road – certainly by the end of this century – America and perhaps Australia will be the only practical remnants of Western Civilization on the planet.

Oct 4, 2009 - 9:22 pm 26. David H:

Marie Claude the issue is that the elites are using International treaties as a way to by pass democracy, please pay attention to the way that the OIS in the UN are destroying freedom of expression, the EU, takes such international agreements and applies them as law, this is not acceptable.

Britain will do well out side of teh EU, because the EU is apply rules to destroy comm9on sense capitalism along with the Obama administration, so Britain will find itself a excellent niche. Ireland will of course find itself losing those head quarters to the UK and I think that multi-national companies will place their HQ where they get the best tax rate.

Oct 4, 2009 - 11:01 pm 27. hanzie:

This seems like the perfect opportunity for Mr. Obama to say:

“The EU is now the largest nation in the world, and Afganistan is their next door neighbor. We have spent money and lives in the Middle East long enough; The EU can now take care of it. We are turning over all our assets in the region to EU and UN control, and will be completely out in two weeks. God bless you all, thank you and good night.”

Oct 5, 2009 - 1:35 am 28. Marie Claude:

Hanzie,

since how long you’re around ME ?
I tell ya after 1945 !

Now since how long the Europeans are trading, fighting in the ME ?
I’ll be generous with you, since the crusades, but you could say that Romans were there since more than 2000 years

So we can tell that we are familiar with this region

David,

Since I read what is going on across the pond, in Asia, or Russia, I realize that we aren’t the most restrictive., and may-be it’s the end of the anglo-saxon vision of the affairs, but you know Romans were also absorbed, this wasn’t the end of them for so. Multinational HQ settle where they can lobby.

Goy, in the contrary, the Lisboa treaty will centralise the borders controls, that means that contries like Spain, Italy, Greece, where illegals land, will get more means to patrol their coasts.

America and perhaps Australia will be the only practical remnants of Western Civilization on the planet.

hmmm how many illegals do you host ?

wondering,

you should ask to Irish that are loosing their jobs.

Oct 5, 2009 - 3:47 am 29. goy:

@28. Marie Claude: – …the Lisboa treaty will centralise the borders controls …

You ignored the point. Europe is dying, demographically. Centralized border control won’t change that, and you’re delusional if you think centralized control will HELP all of Europe improve its porous border. What will happen, in practice, is that the member countries will be taxed through the nose and then look to Brussels to do the work. Brussels is already doing exactly nothing to help Italy, for instance, with their illegal immigration problem. In fact they are actively preventing them from resolving the issues themselves. There’s no reason to believe that will change after last week, since the EU(SSR) must either drastically increase fertility rates, which will require a less socialist economy, or attract tens of millions of immigrants during the next century, which is going to overload and destroy the socialist economy. Either way, Europe is now officially finished as a functional element of Western Civilization. It’s simply a matter of time and demographics.

- hmmm how many illegals do you host ?

Deflecting? Regardless how many illegals we have here, it doesn’t change the facts in Europe. You’re (willfully?) ignoring the point. The U.S. has somewhere around 12-20M illegals and the vast majority are from Third World Central and South American countries. The critical difference, however, is that the U.S. is not experiencing the demographic implosion Europe is.

As for the Irish – and Americans, for that matter – who are losing their jobs, they are victims of socialist / “central planning” corruption of the money market, via the Fed and the IMF which have completely destroyed the free market by eliminating commodity money and replacing it with arbitrary fiat currency, which can be manipulated by politicians at will – and has been – to everyone’s detriment but the very wealthy.

Oct 5, 2009 - 7:21 am 30. liamascorcaigh:

The Republic of Ireland is a small (pop: 4+million), geographically peripheral state. It is ridiculous that so many commenters fault the voters for caving in to EU pressure. We were totally isolated. The other 400+million had no vote and demanded none. They passively accepted the elite’s decision to sideline them. This goes double for all these angry Brits whose leader, Tony Blair, welched blatantly on a referendum promise and was let get away with it scot free.

We rejected this fraudulent treaty once. This gave the whole of the EU population a breathing space to rally strength and demand a direct say. Nothing happened. We were left out on our little limb and now we’re being excoriated and despised by all the barstool warriors for not cutting it off! Even the shameless end-run around democracy that the second referendum represented caused nary a stir.

We Irish did what we could and punched well above our weight. The support of but one larger power – UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Poland, even influential smaller countries like the Netherlands – would have thrown the whole pro-treaty process into disarray but, apart from Vaclav Klaus who’s isolated even in the Czech Republic, not a friendly voice was raised by anybody who really mattered.

The peoples of Europe, like so many around the globe, are getting the tyranny they deserve.

Oct 5, 2009 - 8:20 am 31. Marie Claude:

Goy, you’re a victim of endoctrinment too.

Don’t you know you have no more enterprises in your country too, they were dislocated to China, or to whatever cheap labor countries !

so would you say that these enterprises are not benefitting of capitalism ? yeah, they do ! BUT not your people !

As far as our immigrants, you’re a bit paranoid, the majority don’t want problem, this is still your favorite alliee, Saudi Arabia, that promotes fondamentalism, through zeelots, like Ramadan and alikes, who have a double language, and we must point on their incoherences each time we get the opportunity.

I’m not worried for France, we have the best birth rate, and not due to immigration offsprings.

You can say whatever you want, the fact is this “state” isn’t going to disppear soon, so the best way to counter its deviations, is to be aware, and to denounce its incoherences from the inside. Internet is helping quite a lot.

Hmm, as far as control in Spain, Italy, or Greece, they are the guards of illegal immigration, and they can’t face it alone, so they need the help of the other EU nations, most of the illegals want to rejoin the northern EU counties

Oct 5, 2009 - 8:31 am 32. Marie Claude:

liamascorcaigh,

~68% of Irish, that voted for Lisboa treaty, didn’t have a knife on their throat

Oct 5, 2009 - 8:42 am 33. goy:

@31. Marie Claude: – Goy, you’re a victim of endoctrinment too.

An endocrine disease? Sorry, you’re not making sense.

- Don’t you know you have no more enterprises in your country too, they were dislocated to China, or to whatever cheap labor countries !

You’re still ignoring the point. Manufacturing has been relocating to China, So. Korea and Taiwan for decades, yet unemployment here has remained relatively stable. Why? Because our nominally capitalist economy adapted. But that can only happen for so long while socialist manipulation of the money market goes on. Recent unemployment in the U.S. isn’t rising because of this ‘dislocation’ as you call it. It’s rising because “central planning” manipulation of the money market “screwed the pooch”, as we say, and caused a drastic downturn in the economy.

- You can say whatever you want, the fact is this “state” isn’t going to disppear soon, …

The facts disagree with you (or, at least, what you’re trying to assert). And no one thinks the EU(SSR) “state” will disappear. Nor will it happen soon. Please try responding to what’s written if you insist on responding.

Oct 5, 2009 - 1:08 pm 34. John in Michigan, USA:

To all the commenters who are worried about unhealthy European demographics:

The demographics in Russia are far, far worse. If demographics equals destiny, then Russia will meet her destiny much sooner than Europe. Which makes me believe that Europe will see the future in Russia and act to avoid experiencing that same future in Europe.

As an ironic side-note: I agree the new, post-Lisbon EU suffers from a deficit of direct democracy. The post-Lisbon EU political culture will be less dependent on voters. As bad as this is, it will have the side-effect of making Europe’s politics somewhat less vulnerable to the demographic changes you are warning about…something to ponder….

Oct 5, 2009 - 2:14 pm 35. Marie Claude:

Goy, scuse me I ment Indoctrination

but you’re quibbling with words, and repeating yourself

your unemployment rates don’t reflect reality, if it was based on the same criteriums as here, it would approach rather 16,5%, don’t tell me that only money crisis was the cause.

and I can’t accept your bad carricature, that EU is RSSU, that was launched by the narcissic soviet apparatchik reverted into a radical capitalist, Vaklav Klaus, but he isn’t cautionned in his own country anymore. He’s going to get a preclusion procedure.

Oct 5, 2009 - 2:24 pm 36. Scott:

To DavidH:

Too bad the UK government has been having the British people de-fanged, de-clawed, and practically neutered for decades. To answer your question, hell no would I be for the Treaty of Lisbon.

Oct 5, 2009 - 3:06 pm 37. Marie Claude:

what an “average” Irish thinks of the irish votes, with a sense of humor, he is telling that Ireland had no other alternative to solve their situation ramping to a total bankruptcy

http://theendisalwaysnear.blogspot.com/2009/10/do-over.html

Oct 5, 2009 - 3:52 pm 38. CitizenAuthority:

Actually, most don’t realize this but Hitler tried to do the exact same thing before he obliterated those who said no! These events signal our time to get out of Europe militarily and let them spend the cash on defense. The question is what will happen politically when we pull back. With our clueless POTUS we stand to lose big time!

Oct 5, 2009 - 4:06 pm 39. Marie Claude:

Citizen, watch for yourself first

Oct 5, 2009 - 4:27 pm 40. EscapeVelocity:

Well, if the Irish were terrified of being all by their lonesome they should have petitioned to be the 51rst state of the Union.

But they would have been better advised to stay sovereign and independent, and forge close ties to the US and UK.

But alas…they are going to be inviting millions of Turkish Muslims to permenantly reside in their country and take it over.

Enjoy your dhimmitude, Im sure their will be plenty of service jobs attending the superior Muslims to keep you busy.

Oct 5, 2009 - 5:38 pm 41. Marie Claude:

at least turkish cooking is quite refined , uh better than hamburgers or fish & chips LMAO

Oct 5, 2009 - 6:45 pm 42. x:

How disappointing that the Irish punted on this. Or are their electronic voting machines made in Israel, too?

Oct 5, 2009 - 8:58 pm 43. goy:

@35. Marie Claude: – I ment Indoctrination
You asserted something about indoctrination then, with nothing to actually demonstrate or justify your assertion.

- you’re quibbling with words, and repeating yourself
Not quibbling. And I’m only repeating the fact that you keep willfully ignoring the point.

- your unemployment rates don’t reflect reality, if it was based on the same criteriums as here, it would approach rather 16,5%, don’t tell me that only money crisis was the cause.
“Our” unemployment??? It’s fascinating that you can’t carry on this conversation without deflecting to the U.S. The fact is that the current full unemployment figure in the U.S. is actually closer to approaching 20%. This is a point many of us have been trying to stress to our wannabe socialists in Congress and the Executive. The fact that they don’t recognize this is a big part of why their deficit will be projected by the CBO to be even higher next year.

None of that changes anything with respect to European birthrates or the fact that Europe is now officially doomed as a facet of Western Civilization. It’s not even a question of opinion – the Lisbon Treaty makes it a mathematical certainty.

- and I can’t accept your bad carricature, that EU is RSSU,
It wasn’t a caricature. It was an analog. From the standpoint of what is still a marginally functional Republic, there’s no practical difference between the EU and the failed USSR. The EUSSR will fail also.

And Václav Klaus wasn’t even alive in 1917.

Oct 5, 2009 - 9:07 pm 44. EscapeVelocity:

Better freedom and a hamburger than what awaits you.

Enjoy!

Oct 5, 2009 - 9:40 pm 45. Marie Claude:

Goy,

Vaklav Klaus is born in 1941, thus quite formated by soviets

Mr Klaus has muddled the Czech message. An admirer of Vladimir Putin, he criticised his own government’s support for Georgia after the August war in the Caucasus. He has spearheaded opposition to the Lisbon treaty, telling the constitutional court that it threatened Czech sovereignty. (LMAO) The court disagreed, but it will still take time to win round some of Mr Klaus’s ODS allies in the Czech senate. As a result, it seems certain that Lisbon will not be ratified by the Czechs before their EU presidency starts. Whatever you think of the treaty, this will undermine the Czech Republic’s credibility when it chairs discussions of Europe’s future. Ratification may be achieved “in the first quarter of 2009”, suggests Mr Topolanek. Even then, Mr Klaus says he will not sign the treaty unless this summer’s Irish rejection of Lisbon is reversed. During a state visit to Ireland last month, the Czech president dined with local anti-Lisbon campaigners, praising them for being “dissidents” against the EU. “The Economist” december 2008

comment from a Czech :

Sorry to disappoint socialism haters here but apart from his Friedmanite rhetorics, Mr.Klaus is best known in our country for his so-called “banking socialism” – period in early 1990´s during which he was staunchly refusing to privatise state-owned banks that in return financed his dubious voucher-scheme privatisation scheme. The whole thing ended in deep recesion in 1997, banks had to be bailed out by taxpayers and Klaus was forced to resign as a prime minister. He was later elected president by our parliament only thanks to votes of communist MPs who generally like his anti-EU opinions. When under investigation as a chairman of political party which was supposedly sponsored by dead or non-existing Hungarians and Mauritians, Mr.Klaus bravely took witness´stand and declared ” I do not remember anything.” You just love the man.

uh, isn’t the man a self serving opportunist ?

Goy, you wouldn’t believe it, the Poles have rejoined german and french agricultors strikes in Brussels and poor milk in front of the official buildings. Yes, you can protest when you disagree with EU policies (not in soviet RSSU)

So that means that population in Poland, Ireland, Czechie do not share their stubborn leaders will for self promotion, and they see that they can’t survive as a single country in a global world where marcket prices aren’t defined by locals or nationals, but by an abstract and incontrolable finance elite, that doesn’t care of whatever population, but for their benefits

I am not ignoring your “point”, just that I refute your argumentation as workable for us.

I am afraid that small EU countries will become like our provinces, (ie Brittany, Auvergne, Provence…) still with their own specifity, but conforming to the bigger countries political decisions, this is INEVITABLE, in whatever political system, be it radical capitalism.

What is frightening you with Lisboa treaty, is that EU is becoming more like America organisation, a President, a foreign minister … a parliament that will have a counting decisive power now, and inshala ! for my paranoid friends

Oct 6, 2009 - 3:57 am 46. Bilgeman:

#5 David H:
“Do you support a system of undemocratic rule, by unelected law makers within Europe so that you get that single voice as Europe, if you say yes then you are not the America that I thought you were…”

Whether I support it or not isn’t the point.
Apparently, the Irish supported it, and since it’s their affair, that’s going to be the way it rolls, mate.

I would tell you that to my nose, it stinks to high heaven. The Irish shot this turkey down once, but aparently the dedicated transnational progressives who run Brussels see a “No, thanks”, or even a “Piss off!” as simply an example of quaint but regrettable xenophobia to be overcome, rather than the expression of sovereignty that it is.

I and many others on both sides of the Atlantic foresaw very clearly that the earlier vote would mean another referendum, and another…and another, until the Irish finally gave Brussels the “Yes” vote that they desired.
And now there will be no more referenda.

The Irish are now IN.

All I can recommend at this point is that if you want to get out, you’d better do it soon, before the Eurocrats indoctrinate a generation that is willing to fight and die for “Europe”, (as opposed to fighting and dying for France, Germany, the UK, etc., which is what a “nation” really IS).

Two or three generations from now, and secession becomes a very bloody business.

“There is much more than that, but its a start, but many of us are giving the politicians a bit of time, but if they do not take it then it will become violent, there is real anger about this in the UK, many of us feel this as a direct attack on our freedoms and this is quite frankly something that should not be discounted.”

Quite rightly so. If you are a true subject to HM the Queen, I can’t see how the “circle can be squared” with your fealty to the House of Windsor while your alleigance is to some Spaniard in Brussels.

I reiterate, though, that time is NOT your ally.

And I wouldn’t bank any sterling on us Yanks coming over to sort out yet another European quagmire.
Statesmen like Churchill don’t just grow on trees, y’know…and the kind of Yanks who get tasked to wade ashore on French beaches or bushwhack Krauts in Belgian forests are well aware of the contempt that they are held in by most Europeans.
These feelings are reciprocated fully.
There’s too much mutual disdain to count on us to bleed for your political foibles yet again.

Oct 6, 2009 - 4:49 am 47. John in Michigan, USA:

Can we invoke Godwin’s law on the comments here? Not calling for censorship, just self-restraint. Maybe, trying digging a little deeper for an analogy that hasn’t been done to death already?

Oct 6, 2009 - 7:28 am 48. goy:

@45. Marie Claude: – Vaklav Klaus is born in 1941, thus …

Thus the origins of the Soviet Union predate him by almost 25 years.

But once again you’re deflecting. And now at length. Klaus’ history here is a red herring and doesn’t change Europe’s guaranteed future one bit.

- the Poles have rejoined german and french agricultors strikes in Brussels and poor milk in front of the official buildings. Yes, you can protest …
Protest won’t be allowed in the EU(SSR). The UN is already making sure of this (with BHO’s gleeful assistance). Strikes – adolescent tantrums thrown by adult children when they don’t get their way – are a completely different thing. They will always be “allowed”, as they form the backbone of marxist socialism.

- I am not ignoring your “point”, just that I refute your argumentation as workable for us.
You haven’t “refuted” anything. The facts are the facts. Europe is doomed. By its own hand.

- What is frightening you …
Not satisfied with ignoring the point, you now arrogantly claim to know what I’m thinking? This is truly funny.

There’s a grain of truth in this statement, however, but it has nothing to do with “frightening” me. It causes me fear for the Europeans. Our centralized government is running amok and out of control. It is presently on a course that will destroy this country inside of a decade if left unchecked. You people just saddled yourselves with the same sort of beast, but one which is much, much further down the slippery slope that leads from socialism to totalitarianism. Good luck with it.

- inshala !
You’d best keep that phrase handy. You’re going to need it.

Oct 6, 2009 - 7:45 am 49. goy:

@46. Bilgeman: – Statesmen like Churchill don’t just grow on trees, y’know…and the kind of Yanks who get tasked to wade ashore on French beaches or bushwhack Krauts in Belgian forests are well aware of the contempt that they are held in by most Europeans. These feelings are reciprocated fully. There’s too much mutual disdain to count on us to bleed for your political foibles yet again.

Amen, Bilge!

Saving Europe from itself thrice in 100 years? Not likely.

Oct 6, 2009 - 7:54 am 50. Marie Claude:

Goy, you’re not discussing but trying to put your opinion on EU ahead, sorry, this isn’t the reality that we are living in here

Don’t make my cry, you call your Country democratic, do your people vote for electing their president ? rather tell me you’re a republic system like ours is also becoming, then we can agree on something

and you’d better watch for your own back as far as sharia laws, I read on well informed sites that they are already the rules in some of your states, here, only in UK, is there a correlation ?

Oct 6, 2009 - 8:38 am 51. goy:

@50. Marie Claude: – … you’re not discussing …

Difficult to carry on a discussion with someone who refuses to actually address the point of the discussion.

… this isn’t the reality that we are living in here …

Right. I forgot. “Reality” is subjective. Like a growing segment of America, Europe prefers fantasy to reality.

Oct 6, 2009 - 9:20 am 52. Marie Claude:

goy,

OL right, better, I leave you to your own self appreciation, but nonentheless non effective opinion as far as analyse of the “objective” (not real, you don’t like it) goals of the Lisboa treaty.

and like one of my german friends says : These people are not affected by the recent developments, and they also cannot understand its importance. It is like when we two would start discussing interstate issue in the US – nothing sophisticated could come out of this

We prefer our “fantasy” to your nightmare, imagine, that blacks and hispanics are getting more numerous that the anglo-saxons !

see how you’ll make it in 50 years !

Oct 6, 2009 - 10:29 am 53. EV:

Black Protestants and Hispanic Catholics vs Black and South Asian Muslims.

Its a no brainer.

One will continue to be Western Civilizaton and the other will be Dhimmis being slowly destroyed by Islam and Muslim domination.

Think of it this way, would you rather have millions of Spaniards move to your country or Paki, Turkish, Arab and Black Muslims.

Enjoy!

Oct 6, 2009 - 2:04 pm 54. Marie Claude:

I can’t wait for the paradise you promisse us

Oct 6, 2009 - 4:21 pm 55. EscapeVelocity:

Marie Claude, Ive never wished Europe ill. Ive always supported aiding and protecting Europe.

You seem to think that Im threatened by the European Union. Im not in the least.

I think its a bad idea, because Ive seen what happens in our United States, where peoples and regions get subjugated to as it happens the Cities and the NorthEast, since at least the Ameirican Civil War.

The EU will be dissasterous for you, that is why I dont wish it upon you, not that Im afraid of a rising EU power, shading my imperial glory over here.

I care about Europe, because its heritage is my heritage, Western Civilization is my civilizatioin. (And Ireland is my ancestral homeland along with Germany and some other mish mash).

Ill keep on eating my hamburgers and we will have room for the refugees from the coming storm in Europe.

I wish Europe didnt harbor such ill feelings toward the US, they arent deserved.

I hope that Europe can survive the coming storm, with its Christian and Indigenous Heritage intact.

Oct 6, 2009 - 8:58 pm 56. Donna V.:

at least turkish cooking is quite refined , uh better than hamburgers or fish & chips LMAO

Well, oh-so-superior Marie Claude, many of your own countrypeople disagree with you:

How McDonald’s Conquered France

http://www.slate.com/id/2221246/
By 2007, France had become the second-most profitable market in the world for McDonald’s, surpassed only by the land that gave the world fast food.
But implicit in this attitude was a belief that McDonald’s had somehow been foisted on the French; that slick American marketing had lured them away from the bistro and into the arms of Ronald McDonald. However, that just wasn’t true. The French came to McDonald’s and la malbouffe (or fast-food) willingly, and in vast and steadily rising numbers. Indeed, the quarter-pounded conquest of France was not the result of some fiendish American plot to subvert French food culture. It was an inside job, and not merely in the sense that the French public was lovin’ it—the architects of McDonald’s strategy in France were French.

So the people who collaborated with Vichy are now in bed with Ronald McDonald. Which may account for this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/mental_health/article6844809.ece
The French, for instance, are 1.9 times more likely to take their own lives than the Dutch, 2.8 times more likely than the Italians and 2.4 times more likely than the Spanish or the British. There are nations with worse rates — Finland, for example, where the practice is widely blamed on alcoholism, or Japan, which has historically been tolerant of suicide. But in wealthy Western Europe, France stands out, with at least 10,500 people ending their own lives last year.
The malaise is exacerbated by France’s refusal to accept that changes in the world economy are irreversible, says Louis Chauvel, professor of sociology at the Institute of Political Studies in Paris. “Thanks to Margaret Thatcher, the British understood in the 1980s that the blessed period of prosperity, growth, stability and good pensions was over. France did not.”
Instead, the French cling to the illusion that a return to Les Trente Glorieuses, as the 30-year postwar boom became known, is possible. The result, says Chauvel, is frustration — the gap between aspirations and the possibility of fulfilling them, in sociological language — and depression.

My, what happened to that old joie de vive? Nationalized healthcare, a nanny state, wine, cheese, sex with other people’s spouses – and the French are still miserable. Especially France Telecom workers, who are offing themselves left and right.

Ah, but I’m sure you all will be be much happier in the new EU superstate, right?

Oct 7, 2009 - 5:04 pm 57. Marie Claude:

Donna, you’re an ugly jaelous woman

Oct 9, 2009 - 6:53 am

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