Is Dissent ‘Legitimate’? Not According to Campaign Finance Laws
Watch out Fox News.
Fox News’ ratings have been off the charts lately, and it has the White House to thank for that. After the administration decreed that Fox is not a “legitimate news organization” and that people shouldn’t watch it, more people than ever are tuning in to see Glenn Beck and Bill O’Reilly fight back.
But we shouldn’t be so entertained by this spectacle that we lose sight of why, at bottom, it is a disturbing one. It’s not just because, as many commentators have already observed, the president appears to be taking a page out of Nixon’s playbook. Fundamentally, it’s because the administration’s media war against Fox is but a minor display of the tremendous power the government has to stifle speech it views as illegitimate.
Much of this power is the result of long-standing “campaign finance” laws. These laws impose all sorts of restrictions on political speech, and it’s no coincidence that the most draconian of these restrictions are targeted at those who can speak the most effectively against a politician’s reelection. The most effective speakers tend to be those who can spend the most money. Corporations, many of which have lots of money, receive particularly harsh treatment under the law. Congress and state legislatures have as a practical matter banned corporations from speaking effectively about candidates by prohibiting them from spending any money for that purpose during election season.
Fox News is part of a corporation, as are most of the other major news outlets in the United States. Congress and state legislators have chosen to exempt them from the ban they have placed on other corporations’ political speech. However, under current Supreme Court precedent there’s no legal reason that lawmakers cannot take that exemption away. As a result, government officials are constantly tempted to manipulate the exemption and silence those who disagree with them.
With the Obama administration now arguing that Fox News is a partisan political group masked as a news outlet, expect politicians to call for the government to revoke the network’s media exemption and use the campaign finance laws to mute its speech. Other networks will be on notice that they could suffer the same fate if they are too critical of the administration.
Of course, if the media’s speech becomes illegitimate — and thus subject to restriction — when it turns critical, then the same is true for everyone else, including ordinary citizens. For example, take grassroots groups such as the tea party protesters, who were the bane of politicians’ existence this past summer. Looking for payback, politicians are now proposing to subject those groups to so-called “disclosure” laws that will discourage them from protesting by wrapping them up in miles and miles of red tape if they dare to continue to speak out.
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Bert Gall and Robert Frommer are attorneys at the Institute for Justice, which challenges campaign finance laws nationwide. For more information, visit www.ij.org.
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115 Comments
1. Nobama 2012:Thank God our founding fathers gave us the constitution and 3-three branches of government-
The legislative,
executive,
and the judicial.
Hopefully the Supreme Court will tie these dumb asses to a briefing tree and slap their blinders.
…Can’t wait until Joe Citizen living in Independence Missouri sues for taking away his/her private insurance.
…Turn on ‘FOX’ news and pass the popcorn.
Oct 29, 2009 - 3:36 am 2. Francis W. Porretto:Which would be a very good thing…as far as it goes. But bear in mind always that the Supreme Court has no enforcement arm. Presidents have dismissed its rulings before:
…and the enforcement power of the federal government answers to the president.
We stand at the edge of a precipice. The words of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are no longer deemed to mean what they plainly mean and have meant since 1787. When there is no objective meaning to law, most particularly the Supreme Law of the Land, there is no law at all. We are ruled by the whims of tyrants, nothing else.
The time has come for a counterstrike.
Oct 29, 2009 - 3:52 am 3. vivo:You be the judge:
PROPAGANDA AND EMOTIONS
While Dunn called Fox News Channel an arm of the Republican Party, others have gone so far as to label its content pure propaganda — and incredibly effective propaganda at that.
“This is very, very sophisticated propaganda,” says Bryant Welch, a clinical psychologist, author, and expert on political manipulation. “I don’t think progressives really get it that it’s a technique being used all the time.”
Welch said when he began working as a Washington, D.C., lobbyist on behalf of the American Psychological Association years ago, he started observing the tricky political maneuverings at play in the nation’s capital through the eyes of a psychotherapist who had spent some 30,000 hours helping patients confront their deep-seated hang-ups.
To his surprise, Welch found that some of the most successful right-wing political operatives also seemed to have an understanding of psychology — although they use the knowledge very differently. “A lot of it is psychological manipulation,” Welch asserts.
George Lakoff, a professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley and author of Don’t Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate, offered a similar analysis. He said Republicans approach issues as a marketing challenge. “They’ve learned from the cognitive scientists. Even if they don’t understand the science, they know how to do marketing.”
Welch, who is also an attorney and Huffington Post blogger, provides an analysis of how the right wing gets its message across in his book, State of Confusion: Political Manipulation and the Assault on the American Mind. He argues that public relations professionals, right-wing commentators, and others in the business of shaping public opinion are skilled at tapping into widespread feelings of anxiety and uncertainty.
“In this world, things are confusing,” he explains. “You’ve got to be constantly adapting and assimilating new information. When times get confusing, people have a hard time forming a sense of what’s real.”
Right-wing television and radio personalities like Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh prey on this widespread uncertainty, Welch argues, by providing viewers and listeners with an absolute version of reality that is easily grasped, neatly divided into right and wrong, and spelled out in very certain terms.
“The thing that Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity do is, they sound very powerful, certain, and aggressive,” Welch told us. “[Viewers] identify with that strength. They draw a sense of security from someone who has certainty about what is real.”
Viewers who find that their anxiety subsides when they tune in are hard-pressed to go back and reexamine their views later on, Welch said, because they’re satisfied with the answers they’ve been given. And in right-wing messaging, those answers consistently cast government as the enemy.
On Fox and AM radio, the use of repetition helps drive home an idea until it becomes a conviction in the mind of a listener. Television reinforces those key phrases with patriotic color schemes. The whole package is designed to transform an audience’s sense of bewilderment over a complex world into trust in spokespeople helping them make sense of it.
The right-wing commentators’ success lies partly in their ability to harness core human emotions such as paranoia or envy, Welch said. He pointed to the health care debate as an example, noting how Fox News has repeatedly played up the false concept of “death panels” to create fear.
To counter this tactic, Lakoff suggests that the left would do well to learn how to frame things in moral terms instead of playing defense against right-wing spin masters.
President Obama’s problem, Lakoff said, is that he is still trying to unify the country. “More power to him, but I don’t believe it’s possible,” Lakoff said. “Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain got 47 percent of the vote, bad as he was, and given how terrible a campaign he ran, and given that Obama ran a perfect campaign. So Obama’s election was not a landslide, even though he had one of the best campaign organizations and one of the best framed campaigns ever.”
Obama doesn’t play the same manipulative games, Lakoff noted. “Obama believes that if you just tell the truth, it’ll be OK, and every day have a truth squad to find the conservative lies,” Lakoff said. “What he didn’t understand was that by focusing on the conservative lies, he was in fact helping the conservative cause. It’s like Richard Nixon saying, ‘I’m not a crook.’”
That why Lakoff says it’s so important for Obama, and for the progressive movement in general, to define the moral imperative behind empowering the people and their government to create a better world, then aggressively push a campaign to do so.
“It’s the ‘this is the right thing to do’ approach,” Lakoff explained. “And once it’s been framed that way, then you can say what’s false or true. But you should never go on the defensive first. As soon as you go point by point, you are on the defensive.”
Now you know why I don’t believe in much of the conservative right-wing blabber.
Oct 29, 2009 - 4:05 am 4. Marc Malone:Amazing. It really takes a Supreme Court decision to sort through this so obvious situation? What part of free speech do these autocrats not understand? Such contempt for liberty.
Oct 29, 2009 - 4:27 am 5. Mike2:“Fortunately, it appears that the U.S. Supreme Court is about to remind politicians that free speech is a right, not a privilege subject to their mercurial whims. In the coming weeks, the Supreme Court will issue a decision in the case of Citizens United v. FEC.”
Let’s hope to God you are right. This will be Sotomayor’s big test.
3. vivo:
And now you know why I don’t believe you. Hope you are sophisticated enough to understand what I am saying.
Oct 29, 2009 - 4:57 am 6. pelaut:You can blame Bozo McCain for the legislation. Next the boobs in academia.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:00 am 7. Jack in Silver Spring:vivo @3 finishes by saying: “Now you know why I don’t believe in much of the conservative right-wing blabber.” For vivo it is theological, which is why he doesn’t “believe in …” It is his Torah of Liberalism, and he is welcome to it, but just don’t impose on the rest of us.
Marc Malone is on point, and what he says about the first amendment can be said equally loudly about the second. Unfortunately, elections matter and we are now saddled with a bunch of autocrats who would destroy us to save something (Gaia, Islam — you name it, it can be anything except Western Civilization).
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:01 am 8. Chris in Toronto:Vivo: “projection”.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:08 am 9. Robert F:Vivo,
Thanks for explaining how you (and presumably other trolls) were brainwashed. You have my sympathy.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:26 am 10. GLASS:I always find it quite amusing that these intelectual types are often the ones quoted in the news. I can’t think of one other part of our society that is further out of touch with reality than this group, other than maybe the people that believe them. Reality is a long way from some university test tube theory these intelluctual idiots dream up for an interview, a long way. I watch Fox because I am not lied to and cheated by the omission of facts TSN and others leave out because it doesn’t fit their agenda. At least with Fox I have a chance of making a somewhat informed decision of events even if I still don’t fully believe a lot of what I hear.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:30 am 11. macko:“Obama believes that if you just tell the truth, it’ll be OK, and every day have a truth squad to find the conservative lies,” Lakoff said.
Good God man. First he needs to learn what “truth” means. Right now the O has it biting him on the rear end and he still doesn’t know what it is.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:33 am 12. PoliTech:RE: vivo’s “Cut-n-paste nonsense”.
Incredible display right there vivo.
To cut and paste an article into the comments of someone else’s article is simply bad form.
By not actually providing a link or attribution to the lifted text you are thoughtlessly infringing on someones IP as well.
But worst of all, using “blabber” when the word is “blather”, puts your ignorance on display for all to see. I’ll bet you pronounce nuclear “nuke-uuu-ler” too.
Bonehead.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:48 am 13. Old Soldier:Now you understand why the 1st Amendment was followed by the 2nd. Try to muzzle me.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:48 am 14. Libertyship46:You know, I see how our Federal Government is more and more disconnected from what Americans really want from their governmnet, which is less and less control. The Federal Government is made up of liberal Democrats and Republicans, which are now nothing more than more conservative Democrats. As far as I can see, there really is no difference between the current Republican Party and the Blue Dog Democrats, making the Republicans nothing more than another branch of the Democratic Party. If the Republican party does not start taking more conservative stands, they will go the way of the Whig Party in the 19th Century and simply be replaced by a more conservative party. The Federal Government’s insatiable desire for more and more control and power will turn off the vast majority of voters in this country, except for the blue-state liberals in the northeast and in the far west who simply adore the European-style nanny state, which is their ultimate goal. I have a funny feeling we’ve reached a tipping point and you will see larger and stronger third party candidates running, and possibly winning, elections around the country. Once that starts happening, you can kiss the Republican party goodbye, unless they return to their core principles and start standing up to a Federal Government that has an endless desire to regulate the way we think, speak, and live.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:54 am 15. 1GooDDaDDy:“3. vivo:
You be the judge:”
I didn’t read Mao’s “Little Red Book” in school or my private life…and I don’t intend to read something placed here by one of his current mind numbed minions.
Nice try though.
Not Over.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:55 am 16. Paul from Hamburg:#3 Vivo:
“…to define the moral imperative behind empowering the people and their government to create a better world,…”
So now it’s OK for to try to impose your morality on someone else?
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:59 am 17. liveaboard:Vivo quotes: Obama doesn’t play the same manipulative games, Lakoff noted. “Obama believes that if you just tell the truth, it’ll be OK, and every day have a truth squad to find the conservative lies,” Lakoff said. “What he didn’t understand was that by focusing on the conservative lies, he was in fact helping the conservative cause. It’s like Richard Nixon saying, ‘I’m not a crook.’”
Vivo, you wouldn’t see a lie if the truth was held in your face. Obama and his machine ARE playing manipulative games. Obama and his machine do not tell the truth. Obama and his machine focus propaganda of calling the truth out to be a lie. Obama and his machine are staffed with crooks, tax evaders, and rule benders. Obama wants to change the Constitution. Just so you feel good about the world, McCain is as big of a hoax as Obama is. Lindsay Graham is a Joke. Nancy Pelosi is an abomination, but she truly represents her district. Rahm Emmanuel lost his middle finger because he waved it at the wrong person. We need to flush the toilet on the entire bunch as there are few left in Government that are not corrupted.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:59 am 18. Dave K.:Fox News,idea:
Why not dig up Tokyo Rose and give her a show?
Oct 29, 2009 - 6:03 am 19. savage24:After all, you have all the living traitors and seditionists on your network.
Our founding fathers wrote the Constitution in such plain language that even an idiot could understand it. That tells me that idiots are a lot smarter then the politicians we send to Washingtom DC. We need to get rid of these politicians and get some that can read and understand the Constitution.
Oct 29, 2009 - 6:31 am 20. George S.:the trolls/useful idiots have their marching orders. they didn’t get ideology overnight and they wont leave it easily so there really is NOOOOO point trying to debate or educate them.
they will be the jailers in your future. they are shrilling for the results of YOUR labour.
if you haven’t seen the link below it is worth visiting. You will probably want to see the whole interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdYLyhwGLc
the next link explains the other problem (not the troll infestation).
http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html
this last link is just pure fun.
http://www.pbase.com/opinion/maniacal
Oct 29, 2009 - 6:34 am 21. EnemyoftheState:Back in the 60s we used to say “I don’t agree with what you’re saying, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”
Vivo, my offer of an airplane ticket to the socialist utopia of your choice still stands. Why do you continue to torture yourself by remaining in this awful country?
Oct 29, 2009 - 6:34 am 22. Quincy:Lakoff is precisely the kind of person who makes dictatorships possible. Government truth squads? Really? Anyone who can suggest such a thing, from ANY political orientation is the enemy of freedom and of a better world.
Oct 29, 2009 - 6:41 am 23. Tex Expatriate:A thoughtful essay, and thank you for it. I disagree on one point. That Obama pulled a page out of the Nixon playbook. No. It’s a page out of Hitler’s playbook.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:00 am 24. Anonymous:Does anyone know if this is true?
“Supremecy clause” in the Constitution that states world law “supersedes” our Constitution.
That threw me for a loop because I always thought it was illegal & unconstitutional for those types of treaties & alliances.
Since when is telling the tru
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:02 am 25. epb:Thank you, vivo @3. Your comments (not just today’s) always reaffirm why I am NOT a liberal.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:03 am 26. annie:Does anyone know if this is true?
“Supremecy clause” in the Constitution that states world law “supersedes” our Constitution.
That threw me for a loop because I always thought it was illegal & unconstitutional for those types of treaties & alliances.
Since when is telling the truth being a traitor..
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:04 am 27. epb:Thank you, vivo @3. Your comments (not just today’s) reaffirm why I am NOT a liberal.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:05 am 28. Pragmatist:Dave K I know why not dig up Hitler and call him Obambi they are one and the same in narcissist control freak ideas.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:16 am 29. Pragmatist:VIVO LOL you just never grow up do you.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:33 am 30. Now and Then:Palin Prediction!
If Hoffman wins . . .”Palin turns the corner for conservatives!”
If Hoffman loses . . . “”Palin turns the corner for conservatives!”
Meanwhile, Iowans are shocked at her $100K speaking fee. No worry, Fox will bus in a few thousand folks egged on by Griff Jenkins.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:35 am 31. Fen:“expect politicians to call for the government to revoke the network’s media exemption and use the campaign finance laws to mute its speech”
Then I hope Americans will drag them out into the street to be tarred and feathered.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:38 am 32. WellEducatedCad:Gee Vivo- can you post any more talking points from Huffington post ?
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:39 am 33. Mike_K:“This is very, very sophisticated propaganda,” says Bryant Welch, a clinical psychologist, author, and expert on political manipulation. “I don’t think progressives really get it that it’s a technique being used all the time.”
Vivo, is that the same American Psychological Association that has used its contributions to state politicians to create mandates that psychologists’ service be covered in all health plans ? That is why Washington state has far higher premiums than Idaho, which does not mandate psychologists be paid from health insurance. I think they call that a special interest. It is similar to the phony “poll” run by the psychiatric association in 1964 that concluded Goldwater was unfit to be president. No politics there. Just plain old progressive thinking.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:39 am 34. Dave M.:McCain co-sponsored the law and Bush signed it. Is it any wonder Republicans are referred to as the stupid party.
Vivo, thanks for your invaluable insights. Quoting that entire story must have taken a lot of work and, as everyone knows, anecdotal pyscho-babble is probably the most compelling evidence on which to base an opinion or, in your case, your religious beliefs.
Allah akbar vivo.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:39 am 35. baal:18. Dave K.:Your messiah is the traitor. Re:Wright, Ayers, Dunn etc… Oh yes and he got his start in politics on his knees in front of a slumlord, servicing, turning tricks…because he “cared” about the little people.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:41 am 36. The Grey Man:But, but, but, insn’t dissent patriotic? Or is that like, sooo eleven months ago, dude.
“I dissent, therefore I am”
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:43 am 37. baal:Rene’ Dissident
3. vivo:
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:44 am 38. Anonymous:You be the judge:Did you notice any of those little “Hope” posters? When you wake up in the morning please check the batteries on you irony detector. (sigh) George Lakoff? Really?
CNN: we voted for Obama, what do you expect.
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:49 am 39. DWPittelli:Vivo quotes: “Fox News has repeatedly played up the false concept of “death panels” to create fear.”
And yet some liberals have been honest enough to say that we will have death panels; they just give them softer names. Perhaps most notably, we have Robert Reich saying that an honest politician would have to admit that:
“We’re going to have to, if you’re very old, we’re not going to give you all that technology and all those drugs for the last couple of years of your life to keep you maybe going for another couple of months. It’s too expensive…so we’re going to let you die.”
“…Also I’m going to use the bargaining leverage of the federal government in terms of Medicare, Medicaid—we already have a lot of bargaining leverage—to force drug companies and insurance companies and medical suppliers to reduce their costs. What that means, less innovation and that means less new products and less new drugs on the market which means you are probably not going to live much longer than your parents. Thank you.”
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:52 am 40. David S:Fox has the right to broadcast their nonsense.
We have the right to expose their nonsense.
You have the right to believe their nonsense.
But it is still nonsense.
Peace.
DS
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:57 am 41. Mike Murray:Thank you for shedding light on this issue. Until now, I thought Obama was merely trying to keep other news outlets from picking up on stories broken by Fox News — stories that are unflattering to him and his administration.
I was unaware of the campaign-finance law exemption that news organizations (the for-profit ones) have been required to secure from the federal government in order to avoid limits on their abilities to report / comment.
The use of the term “not legitimate” by Obama now is better understood. It seems clear that he dabbled with the idea of lumping Fox News into the category of non-news corporations, whose opportunities to express themselves as fully as they might wish have been limited by laws such as the one Senators McCain and Feingold co-sponsored and helped to enact.
There are also implications, it seems to me, for the newspaper bailout that Democrats are contemplating. Part of any such funding would be the requirement that recipient print operations reclassify themselves “not-for-profit” organizations.
Since Fox News (and other broadcast and cable outlets) are unlikely to ever agree to abandon their shareholder-owned, for-profit status, they would always have to be concerned that a hostile administration or Congress might attempt to silence them via campaign finance regulations.
I hope you are right. I hope the Supreme Court weighs in on the side of free speech, and reverses provisions that currently exist. It is the right thing to do, and it will prevent Obama and other politicians from coercing news agencies.
Also, for what it’s worth, I believe the potential newspaper bailout to be a VERY bad idea.
See: Critically Speaking, Freely http:emmeffemm.com/id176.html
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:04 am 42. xj:Oh, really?
http://www.pennypresslv.com/Obama%27s_Use_of_Hidden_Hypnosis_techniques_in_His_Speeches.pdf
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:09 am 43. Boyd:“George Lakoff, a professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley”
His area of expertise from his Berkely profile: Cognitive linguistics, especially the neural theory of language. Conceptual systems, conceptual metaphor, syntax-semantics-pragmatics. The application of cognitive and neural linguistics to politics, literature, philosophy and mathematics
Classic. Does it get any worse than that?
From his Wiki entry: (His book) Moral Politics gives book-length consideration to the conceptual metaphors that Lakoff sees as present in the minds of American “liberals” and “conservatives”. Lakoff makes an attempt to keep his personal views confined to the last third of the book, where he explicitly argues for the superiority of the liberal vision.
Now if you really want an education into why Liberals and Conservatives think differently give Thomas Sowell’s, “A Conflict of Vision” a try. Sowell’s books are very interesting in that even on the agenda driven reviews on Amazon no one ever gives him a one star review. No wonder since his analysis is as purely scholarly and unbiased as it gets.
As opposed to the idiot, “professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley”
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:09 am 44. Now and Then:here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAz-zMOwrK0
Any questions?
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:13 am 45. Steve:Now you know why I don’t believe in much of the conservative right-wing blabber.
Because you’re a gullible lefty who believes whatever nonsense makes you feel good?
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:14 am 46. tanstaafl:I am reminded again of these words of Benjamin Franklin…
“Whoever would overthrow the Liberty of a Nation, must begin by subduing the Freeness of Speech; a Thing terrible to Publick Traytors……That Men ought to speak well of their Governours is true, while their Governours deserve to be well spoken of; but to do publick Mischief, without hearing of it, is only the Prerogative and Felicity of Tyranny……Only the wicked Governours of Men dread what is said of them…”
The Writings of Benjamin Franklin: Boston and London, 1722 – 1726
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:25 am 47. baal:41. David S:(youre making this too easy)
MSNBC/CNN/ABC/NBC/CBS has the right to broadcast their nonsense.
We have the right to expose their nonsense.
You have the right to believe their nonsense.
But it is still nonsense.
Peace.
BAAL
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:30 am 48. Paul from Hamburg:Now and Then:
Are you serious? Are you trying to use an MSNBC clip to prove that Fox News is as bad as Obama says? Really?
OK show of hands: Anyone think that Vivo, Dave S and Now and Then will ever understand the difference between a fact and an opinion? Anyone?
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:34 am 49. steveg:Fox News drives the progressive fascist crazy.
Pro-American
Pro-Capitalist
Pro-Military
Everything the left hates.
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:37 am 50. David S:@48. baal:
You missed the part about exposing their nonsense. Care to share a link?
You are only reinforcing my point otherwise.
Not that I don’t appreciate your help.
Peace.
DS
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:38 am 51. HalifaxCB:3. vivo:
LOL, you cut and paste from the SF Bay Guardian (without, of course, attribution) from an article titled “Attack of the right wing nuts” with a sub title “ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL: The manipulations and media machine behind the assault on progressive ideas” that quotes a Dem lobbyist and a UC Bezerkly prof in order to complain about Fox??? This is just too funny for words….
OTOH, I would suggest that others use this as a reminder to keep an eye on the rise of psychological castigation by the Left – remember what they did to IG Walpin for the sin of being honest. It’s long been a favourite tool of totalitarians (particularly the Soviets).
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:39 am 52. Paul R:The “supremacy clause” establishes the federal law priority over state law and state constitutions. No treaty process can amend the constitution. Changes to American sovereignty require constitutional amendment.
That is, so long as words have fixed meanings and are not turned into linguistic constructs subject to redefinition by consensus egged on by professors of linguistics. A “living constitution” is no constitution at all.
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:45 am 53. plutosdad:“and every day have a truth squad to find the conservative lies”
vivo doesn’t even see the irony in this. Yes more truth squads please? that is so pro-freedom. Jefferson would be proud.
The only way to protect people from lies is complete freedom for everyone to say whatever they want. You can’t protect people from lies by trying to control who talks, because the people doing the controlling are human beings, selfish and frail and short sighted, and they WILL abuse it. We all more easily recognize bias and lies when we disagree with the premise. So every effort to stop them must necessarily also be biased, and will punish one group more than another.
It’s possible we can watch FOX and other channels and see bias when it happens. Hell I don’t watch any tv news anymore. But to say only one “side” is manipulating or biased is downright deceitful.
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:53 am 54. tanstaafl:Annie, #26
“Supremacy clause” in the Constitution that states world law “supersedes” our Constitution. That threw me for a loop because I always thought it was illegal & unconstitutional for those types of treaties & alliances.
That’s a complete misstatement of…
Article VI, paragraph 2 of the Constitution
Which simply states that treaties entered into under the authority of the US government are incorporated, as is the Constitution, as the supreme law of the land.
You gotta watch the brain dead carefully and the claims they make, just as you’ve gotta watch this administration’s cadre of transnationalists (such as Obama’s legal advisor, Harold Koh) who would throw out the US Constitution and subject the United States, in all areas, to the dictates of what they blithely refer to as “international law”.
The climate conference in Copenhagen in December orchestrated by the brain dead UN guy Ban Ki Moon is (yet another) effort to bend the power of the United States to so called “international law”. Obama’s science advisor (admittedly he doesn’t know jack about climate) is also on board for the agenda.
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:55 am 55. GC:@50. David S.
That you are not aware of NewsBusters (www.newsbusters.org) as a counterpoint to your NewsHounds suggests that the echo chamber you are in is particularly well sealed.
Your closing exhortation for “Peace” is particularly ironic.
GC
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:56 am 56. Lark:Why bother with “truth squads” when you can just create and rely on a virtual state-run media run by sympathetic, aiding-and-abetting corporations? Those handshake agreements don’t need to be publicized, and that’s where the American public is understandably leery, and drawn to a “renegade” news organization, a “freer” press, if you will. Or is an aggressive and contrary press only necessary for certain presidents?
The Founding Fathers themselves cast “government as the enemy,” decentralizing power and providing checks and balances. The social contract is a tenuous one, to be broken at will by the people, as evident in the declining market share of many major newspapers and news organizations. But of course, Dr. Lakoff and Mr. Welch can only explain that by positing a naive public duped by clever marketing techniques. (Apparently soundbites and fear-mongering are solely the province of Fox News.)
This duped citizen is concerned by a president who attacks, rather than ignores or laughs off, a segment of the press when he is the one “telling the truth.” Perhaps he prefers the “absolute reality.”
Oct 29, 2009 - 8:58 am 57. baal:40. David S:Again you fail to understand the point. Your link was to a partisan site. If an argument can be derailed through SIMPLE word substitution its a poor argument.
I think youre smarter than your arguments, but myopic enough to not understand that.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:04 am 58. tom:Fox is actually legit news network? Guess I missed that disclaimer
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:14 am 59. tanstaafl:Obama’s science advisor (admittedly he doesn’t know jack about climate)
His name is Steven Chu and his title isn’t science advisor but (cabinet level) energy secretary. I confused his title with Obama’s Czar in love with the notion of telling you how many babies you can have, eugenicist John Holdren.
Chu is the guy who recommended painting roofs white to, you know, deflect those nasty rays from the sun back into space and help out the planet that way.
The guy has won some prizes in Physics, I think.
He should stick to physics.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:15 am 60. gracie:Telling truth about our country and what is going on here is what we expect from a news organization, and why we have them around, otherwise they serve no purpose to America.
As long as FOX gives us facts, facts that we can check, we will continue to tune in. Their ratings prove this every day.
The rhetoric from the troll(s?) here is juvenile. From FOX alone, we heard about Jones, ACORN, the “czars” in general, NONE of this has been nonsense.
Citizens United v. FEC decision will be very important to our freedoms. I had not fully realized what was going on in this situation.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:18 am 61. tanstaafl:This duped citizen is concerned by a president who attacks, rather than ignores or laughs off, a segment of the press when he is the one “telling the truth.” Perhaps he prefers the “absolute reality.”
Thin skinned, authoritarian bully.
The Chicago Way guys and girlz surrounding Obama are used to employing techniques of backroom arm twisting and intimidation.
A number of their hires are similarly inclined, see Obama’s so called “diversity” guy at the FCC, Mark Lloyd, who admires Oogoe Chavez (Oogoe has been systematically shutting down opposing news outlets in Venezuela) in the same way that Anita Dunn gushes over Mao.
The assault on free speech, exemplified by Emanuel’s and Axelrod’s attacks on Foxnews in recent days, is only beginning.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:29 am 62. ScottR:#3 Vivo – or a quote from what Vivo posted as he fails to rebut the article himself:
“That why Lakoff says it’s so important for Obama, and for the progressive movement in general, to define the MORAL IMPERATIVE behind empowering the people and their government to create a better world, then aggressively push a campaign to do so.”
..and there it is in black and white – the “moral imperative” – these two words go so far in explaining why Lefties:
- Feel so superior – they are MORAL, the right is evil
- Unleash the hate – the evil right deserves it after all
- Parrott the same talking points endlessly – they just KNOW them to be true
- Have NO sense of irony – that would require too much introspection
It is but a small step from moral certitude to tyranny – but hey, you must understand, that they are doing it for only the best of reasons.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:34 am 63. Dan Murphy:David S. is a paid troll working for MoveOn.org, and through them the DNC and George Soros. She posts under various names including “Vivo” and “Now and Then” among others. Her job is to disrupt serious discussion of the issues here at PJM. The aim is to blunt any influence this site might have, by driving people who are interested in serious discussion of the issues away from the site. Notice how she resorts to ad hominem arguments, unsupported assertions, straw men, etc. The bottom line is that she is not here to convince or discuss, she is here to frustrate you and drive you away from PJM.
The best tactics to deal with this educated but ignorant little girl is to either ignore her completely, or to ridicule her.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:37 am 64. Brian:“You missed the part about exposing their nonsense. Care to share a link?”
I was wondering the same thing…. you failed to provide links from nonpartisan sources supporting your argument… perhaps you simply couldnt find any?
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:40 am 65. Boyd:HalifaxCB makes a good point. “OTOH, I would suggest that others use this as a reminder to keep an eye on the rise of psychological castigation by the Left”
No doubt you all have noticed how Vivo somehow always manages to get in some over the top quote or comment in the first few comments. I come to this site quite often and am always lost in the flood of comments. How is that possible and why is it done? This is the, “psychological castigation by the Left” that Halifax refers to. It never makes any sense. It never leads anywhere and it is never followed up with any argument. It is purely psyops warfare by the radical Left on everyone else. It is what life under the boot-heal of what Obama and the Vivos and fellow travelers have in mind for everyone will be like. Constant chaos and turmoil. The Progressive bible by Alinsky is their playbook. And you can all see here how disruptive and effective it is. Learn from it.
As Halifax says, the best defence is to watch and learn from their tactics. The consequence of not doing this is to imagine what it would be like to sit across the table from a Vivo arguing for health treatment for your sick child. You don’t support Obama? That could be a problem.
And just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get us.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:54 am 66. Sherab Zangpo:#2 Francis W. Porretto
Perfectly stated, concise and precise.
BUT I must invite you (and anyone else interested) to peruse with patience the pages of my blog , with the goal to review the theory, the history, and the implications of the LOSS of OBJECTIVE meaning of the words (and of the law):
the subversives base their action on the pseudo-philosophy of nihilism (the only philosophy allowed today in our Universities) and there is no trace of objective Truth in nihilism.
This is the long term plan that the subversives have realized: first they have destroyed the culture, THEN they have drawn all the logical conclusions from the new totalitarian cultural landscape.
I know, my pages are long and boring, but the most fundamental point is that we will be able to fight the
RESULTS
of cultural subversion
ONLY IF WE CAN fight the premises of it.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:56 am 67. Conservative Mom:Do not the leftists understand that if Obama does this to Fox, this opens the door for the next Republican President to do the same to CNN, NBC, CBS, etc.??? Or do they just blindly believe that there will never be another Repub pres? Stupid, stupid, stupid. And how they now use the republican talking points as their own – that is the Alinsky manifesto to the T. Talking about human rights, when the Dems could care less about the people and strive to take more and more rights away from the people. And Vivo talks about “truth” – he should be ashamed.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:02 am 68. myth buster:I was painfully obvious that liberals have no sense of irony as soon as the media spent March 2008 alternating between ignoring Hillary and pressuring her to drop out- right after having successfully tested this tactic on Mike Huckabee.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:04 am 69. myth buster:Somehow I doubt the military will allow the administration to crush freedom of speech.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:06 am 70. Bear:3:vivo
You’re kidding right? I don’t need a clinical psychologist who is an obvious shill, to explain human behavior to me. If he actually did his job he wouldn’t make statements like the one you quote:
“Obama doesn’t play the same manipulative games, Lakoff noted. “Obama believes that if you just tell the truth, it’ll be OK, and every day have a truth squad to find the conservative lies,” Lakoff said. “What he didn’t understand was that by focusing on the conservative lies, he was in fact helping the conservative cause”
rolfl
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:12 am 71. Anonymous:#69 Myth Buster:
“Somehow I doubt the military will allow the administration to crush freedom of speech.”
Now there’s some IRONY for ya! We are not a Banana Republic yet.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:14 am 72. ScottR:#69 myth buster:
“Somehow I doubt the military will allow the administration to crush freedom of speech.”
Now there’s some IRONY for ya! We are not a Banana Republic yet.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:16 am 73. Tom L:@George S
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:27 am 74. David S:Thanks for those links.
@55. GC:
That you are not aware of NewsBusters (www.newsbusters.org) as a counterpoint to your NewsHounds suggests that the echo chamber you are in is particularly well sealed.
I’m well aware of NewsBusters. Just wondering why baal was too lazy to link at all. In case you were wondering, there is a very simple difference between the two sites. News Hounds has the express mission of exposing inaccurate reporting, and is not based on a partisan premise. NewsBusters on the other hand is explicitly dedicated to promoting a specific ideological perspective.
This is the fundamental difference that the right always misses in this discussion. You are entitled to your own opinions – but not to your own facts.
57. baal:
Again you fail to understand the point. Your link was to a partisan site. If an argument can be derailed through SIMPLE word substitution its a poor argument.
The argument is not derailed by simple word substitution – the words are not the argument. The argument is the facts on the ground, which clearly demonstrate that Fox does not function as a news outlet, or offer principled dissent, but rather functions as an arm of the GOP.
Peace.
DS
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:38 am 75. wayne:I love it!!
Vivo et al uses Alinsky to dissect Fox News and the Conservatives.
Both sides entire set of techniques are about marketing and psychology. What do you think has always been the purpose of Rhetoric?
No one ever convinced anyone to go to war (verbal or otherwise) based purely upon a reasoned analysis of facts. The number one reason for that is that other than a few facts of proven physical laws, most other facts are merely observations made upon what info is available or that can be inferred. THIS MEANS THAT MOST “FACTS” ARE MERELY SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS.
You aren’t going to get many arguments over whether or not gravity works. If have any doubts go jump off a building.
As far as anything else – its all subjective.
There were no polar ice caps during most of the era of the dinosaurs and life was abundant on every possible piece of land. Trouble only happened when the earth got cold after being smacked by a big rock. Warm – good, cold – bad. If the water gets high…move. So much for the terrors of global warming.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:43 am 76. Knotacommie:Vivo is online quoting George Lackof the jackoff? The same Lackov who tried making clinical excuses for ANDREW LUSTER, one of the worse rapists in recent memory? Vivo, relying on an IDIOT just shows what an IDIOT really is.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:47 am 77. tanstaafl:The argument is the facts on the ground, which clearly demonstrate that Fox does not function as a news outlet, or offer principled dissent…
David S (”faithful spewer of the Leftist meme”) is unable to separate opinion shows on Fox from news shows on Fox.
He is the quintessential poster child in the Left’s army of Useful Idiots, his brain so thoroughly washed that he has no clue that the thing up there in his skull no longer functions at all.
Besides the financial crumbs Soros throws his way, he works as treasurer at a ski club in Oregon, whose paid time he uses to, ahem, “blog” at PJM.
Oct 29, 2009 - 10:57 am 78. Paul from Hamburg:#74 David S
“News Hounds has the express mission of exposing inaccurate reporting, and is not based on a partisan premise.”
Well, that got me curious. I decided to visit News Hounds. In their “manifesto” they say: “Our hope is that you will visit this site regularly so that over time you will come to see, as we have, the ways in which Fox News in particular, lies and distorts its ‘news’ reporting and spins in favor of the Republican party.”
Well, that is very convincing. I don’t see anything partisan in that statement.
By the way, can you help me find the places where News Hounds reported on biased reported at the other networks? Everything I see revolves around Fox, but if their mission is “exposing inaccurate reporting”, shouldn’t they have some stories describing the coverage of other networks?
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:09 am 79. David S:@77. tanstaafl:
David S (”faithful spewer of the Leftist meme”) is unable to separate opinion shows on Fox from news shows on Fox.
There are no “news shows” on Fox. It’s just 24 hour opinion.
Besides the financial crumbs Soros throws his way, he works as treasurer at a ski club in Oregon, whose paid time he uses to, ahem, “blog” at PJM.
In case you were wondering, you’ve just violated the forum rules. (3. Disagree, but avoid ad hominem attacks.)
For the record, I don’t get paid to post here, and my service with the NWSCC is as a volunteer. Just like Fox News, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Making fact-free personal attacks against me just demonstrates your own inadequacy. I would advise you to refrain from making such counter-factual assertions, as you have just opened yourself to legal action for defamation. Unless you enjoy being the target of a tort suit, such behavior is unwise.
Your posts are as illegitimate as the “news” on Fox.
Peace.
DS
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:12 am 80. Eowyn:@ 24. Anon:
Article VI of the Constitution states, in the second paragraph:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” [emphasis mine]
Just let the Untied Nations TRY to get their corrupt mitts on my country’s laws. I’ll sic the 2nd Amendment on ‘em — with extreme prejudice.
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:27 am 81. tanstaafl:Making fact-free personal attacks against me just demonstrates your own inadequacy.
Sorry, sweet pea.
Fact free or not, you don’t respond to logic and are a blight on human intelligence.
So that leaves innuendo as the only way of reaching your 3 remaining functioning neural circuits.
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:27 am 82. deguello:#77 TANSTAFL:RE:#79 DAVID S(yphillis) It’s gone tertiary;the poor little stalinist wretch can’t distinguish between the New York Times, and Fox news! Deguello!
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:32 am 83. baal:74. David S:Um…no. Dude, really, youre embarrasing youself. I’m now calling you a stinky poo poo head, please file a tort suit on me, and stating that you are a clown, and adds are you are not literally a clown, so please sue me for defamation!
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:35 am 84. deguello:#76 KNOTACOMMIE: VIVO is not an idiot,useful. or otherwise; he is a Castro-loving stalinist,just like David S,and the other free speech-hating marxist trolls that infest PJM.They’re fun to expose and insult though!
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:37 am 85. robotech master:To 24. Anonymous
Treaties are roughly equal to federal law… the constitution always surpasses treaties and any treaty that is unconstitutional is not valid period. Thus all states under the constitution can use things such as the 10th amendment to “opt out” any treaty signed.(thats assuming the treaty is constitutional)
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:47 am 86. tanstaafl:“An early progress report on President Barack Obama’s economic recovery plan overstates by thousands the number of jobs created or saved through the stimulus program, a mistake that White House officials promise will be corrected in future reports.”
Obama admin. misrepresenting the facts, Whadda Shock
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:47 am 87. Graham:David S.
“News Hounds has the express mission of exposing inaccurate reporting, and is not based on a partisan premise. NewsBusters on the other hand is explicitly dedicated to promoting a specific ideological perspective.”
Once again, it appears you don’t even bother to read what you link.
From their site:
“Brave New Films (with whom we are proud to be associated) has put together a new video and an online campaign to stop the witch hunt.”
And who is brave new films? “The best progressive political videos on the web” — All I had to do is google it dude.
What’s that you say? Not based upon a partisan premise? Go back to the site and try reading for comprehension.
As for your meaningless threat of a defamation suit…LOL…Are you serious? Grow up.
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:48 am 88. PoliPundit:This post seems to link to various news sources, but I can’t find a single link that identifies these “politicians” or how they’re calling for “disclosure.”
If any of this were happening, I, and just about every other American, would be outraged. But, as far as I can tell, it’s not.
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:53 am 89. Eowyn:Guys, guys, guys — specifically Nos. 81 to 83 — don’t stoop to ad hominem. Keep to the higher ground. (Honestly, baal … “stinky poo poo head”?!)
Even IF David S.’s arguments are demonstrably false or otherwise erroneous (which they almost always are), playing the junior-high trash-talk card doesn’t help advance the argument.
If you MUST resort to epithets, try the much classier online Shakespearean insult generator at http://tinyurl.com/kea6u . (My first effort, especially suitable for loudmouth vegans: “Thou art a mammering, beef-witted lout.”)
Oct 29, 2009 - 11:58 am 90. Former Marine '69 '72:….“Obama believes that if you just tell the truth, it’ll be OK, and every day have a truth squad to find the conservative lies,” Lakoff said……snip….
ROTFLMAO….when did he start telling the truth?
to define the moral imperative behind empowering the people and their government….snip….
“Saul Alinskys’ tenth rule… is you do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments….
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:00 pm 91. Delia:David S. says: There are no “news shows” on Fox. It’s just 24 hour opinion.
Unfortunately for you, skunky britches, those ‘opinions’ are a news source that a majority of people in this country PREFERS to watch and the opinions from the WH lap-dogs like CNN/MSNBC/CBS/etc. have been a JOKE in the ratings. Nevermind the fact that other stations often cover the same News as Fox does.
But, hey…SOMEBODY has to watch the zombie networks. GOOD BOY!
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:11 pm 92. David C.:Of course you folks do understand that #3 Vivo’s (somewhat successful) attempt to change the discussion was a subtle psychological manipulation, i.e. the discussion became about “Vivo” instead of Gall & Frommer’s excellent article.
We find this sort of “trollmanship” often in the comments section of conservative media. It is meant as a distraction and grows out of the narcissism exemplified by statist leadership and the messianic leftist self image carefully nurtured by liberals for the last 100 years.
Perhaps we should strive for the discipline to simply ignore the inflammatory and self-serving comments so often deposited by the ideologically challenged. Just a thought.
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:14 pm 93. jodetoad:Lots of folks try to manipulate others psychologically. Some people are more susceptible to manipulation than others. Eventually, all but the most susceptible will become aware of it. Most, like me, will resent it.
The biggest mistake the left makes is assuming a majority is susceptible. The mass rejection of ABC/NBC/MSNBC/NYTimes et al reveals this. The result is that their audience is selected for being malleable, credulous, and not prone to critical thinking.
Surrounding one’s self with those who agree and pat each other on the back may be comforting. The typical lib smarminess, the smug superiority which implies disagreement = stupidity, and the resulting virtual unanimity of the left tend to confirm the psychological ‘feel-good’ that they are accusing the right of. Really kind of amusing, when the disagreements on the right are public property.
Most of us now do our own fact-checking, and taking time to document it for trolls would be absurd, we have more important things to do.
#79 our ‘volunteer’ friend threatens legal action (kind of funny, also, have a good time with that(Peace)), while repeating we don’t have a right to choose our own facts.
Sorry, but we do. I reject the “facts” presented by Obamabots and their little pals, ABC/CBS/MSNBC/HuffPo etc. etc. I find facts, and confirm them, where I choose. I winnow them for bias, framing, omission, etc., and interpret them as I will.
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:19 pm 94. Bear:David S on Obama:
He is a disciplined and patient politician, and he understands the nature and pace of Congress
Again I can’t control the giggles…
Where do people like you come from?
You shouldn’t link your name to your personal propaganda page. You insult yourself. In a culture of liars, you certainly stand out.
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:30 pm 95. Bear:I love how the Newshound web site has a link to a Pam Anderson video(with the standard morals caveat)…priceless
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:42 pm 96. George S.:don’t feed the trolls ..
ignore them. they are unable or unwilling to modify or truly provide an honest debate.
they are morally dishonest. the most you can hope for are the socialist/marxist talking points or the blame bush syndrome
by responding to them you fall for one of the Alinsky tricks …giving them a moral equivilance which doesn’t exist.
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:50 pm 97. Anonymous:@94. Bear:
In a culture of liars, you certainly stand out.
I’m so happy you noticed.
Peace.
DS
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:56 pm 98. David S:@95. Bear:
I love how the Newshound web site has a link to a Pam Anderson video(with the standard morals caveat)…priceless
I love how you fail to differentiate between web site content and an advertisement…priceless
Peace.
DS
Oct 29, 2009 - 1:01 pm 99. Boyd:“Of course you folks do understand that #3 Vivo’s (somewhat successful) attempt to change the discussion was a subtle psychological manipulation,”
Only somewhat though. That the subject here turned to what you point out really is the underlying issue in the war on Fox. The Vivos in a broader context are more than just annoying, they are dangerous to free society. As you say the best way to deal with them here is to have the discipline to ignore them as the trolls they are. But I don’t think in this case they accomplished what they want. This whole idea of the importance of information warfare and how best to wage it from the conservative perspective needs some educating. Some of that was addressed here and I think perhaps it was more important than strictly sticking to the topic as written.
Oct 29, 2009 - 1:06 pm 100. ScottR:@92 DavidC:
“We find this sort of “trollmanship” often in the comments section of conservative media. It is meant as a distraction and grows out of the narcissism exemplified by statist leadership and the messianic leftist self image carefully nurtured by liberals for the last 100 years.”
You bring up a good point – perhaps they should just be ignored. However, puncturing their puerile pronouncements is just so much fun.
Oct 29, 2009 - 1:25 pm 101. myth buster:I’m a bit confused as to what ScottR found ironic about my statement that the military can be relied on to defend freedom of speech. The military’s oath is to the Constitution, not to the President. In particular, the oath many officers take doesn’t even mention the President or the UCMJ.
Oct 29, 2009 - 3:31 pm 102. Professor Obvious:RE: #3 Vivo
Welch a HuffPo blogger? Berkeley prof George Lakoff? ROFL. You have to be kidding, right? What a contribution to objective scientific research these two bright lights are.
The only pub that accepts Lakoff’s work is Popular Psychology, whose standards are a notch or two below the National Enquirer. To peer review the man’s work, you’d need a crate of rocks…the denser the better.
Oct 29, 2009 - 3:57 pm 103. Al V.:I would love to jump all over Obama on this, but the truth is that the Bush administration also went to war against opponents, while not as openly. Stations given to opposing the Bush administration were simply shunted to the back of the room or not called on by any of the many press secretaries Bush used. Dana Perino was particularly good at this. Other opponents of the Bush administration, that I personally knew, simply received surprise phone calls from the FBI are other law enforcement authorities.
Oct 29, 2009 - 4:13 pm 104. Peeps:Here in my home town, at my high school that I pay taxes to support, Bush and Cheney would make appearances and anyone not a card carrying Republican would simply be shut out, often times told to leave the area by police. As much as I would like to through tantrums about Obama, the Bush years are still too fresh in my mind to narrow my criticism to Barry O.
The problem is not campaign finance. The problem is campaigns. They are too long and too costly and we seem to want a system here in which the wealthy (and corporations) get to do all the talking and the man on the street cannot buy influence. All campaigns should be limited to six weeks, all contributions to $100. Access must be granted to all parties and growth of new parties encouraged in anticipation of a system of proportional representation.This way everyone will get a say. Also, corporations are not people. A perversion of the 14th amendment by the Supreme court in Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific established that abomination.It needs to be reversed.
Anyone else notice that baal signed post #57 the same way David S. does?
Perhaps there is not so much discussion from Vivo, N&T, et al as there is just plain trolling by a single individual with a lot of time on their hands.
Oct 29, 2009 - 4:54 pm 105. vivo:5. Mike2:
“And now you know why I don’t believe you. Hope you are sophisticated enough to understand what I am saying.”
Yes, you fell under the Fox spell.
7. Jack in Silver Spring:
“vivo @3 finishes by saying: “Now you know why I don’t believe in much of the conservative right-wing blabber.” For vivo it is theological, which is why he doesn’t “believe in …””
Theological?? I can tell you also have been programmed by Fox to hear/read what you want to hear. Poor Jack, misreading the obvious . . .
8. Chris in Toronto:
“Vivo: “projection”.”
Idem
9. Robert F:
“Thanks for explaining how you (and presumably other trolls) were brainwashed. You have my sympathy.”
You can’t stand to hear the truth!
12. PoliTech:
“By not actually providing a link or attribution to the lifted text you are thoughtlessly infringing on someones IP as well.”
Not really, you can always ask.
“But worst of all, using “blabber” when the word is “blather”, puts your ignorance on display for all to see. I’ll bet you pronounce nuclear “nuke-uuu-ler” too.”
You’re half right, I meant both.
15. 1GooDDaDDy:
“and I don’t intend to read something placed here by one of his current mind numbed minions.”
Ignorance is bliss.
16. Paul from Hamburg:
“So now it’s OK for to try to impose your morality on someone else?”
All the time.
17. liveaboard:
Living proof of Fox’s brainwashing.
21. EnemyoftheState:
“Why do you continue to torture yourself by remaining in this awful country?”
When did I say that? Your words.
25. epb:
“Thank you, vivo @3. Your comments (not just today’s) always reaffirm why I am NOT a liberal.”
Nobody is asking you to be one.
29. Pragmatist:
“VIVO LOL you just never grow up do you.”
????
32. WellEducatedCad:
“Gee Vivo- can you post any more talking points from Huffington post ?”
I didn’t get this straight from Huffington.
33. Mike_K:
“Vivo, is that the same American Psychological Association that has used its contributions to state politicians to create mandates that psychologists’ service be covered in all health plans ?”
I have no idea.
34. Dave M.:
“and, as everyone knows, anecdotal pyscho-babble is probably the most compelling evidence on which to base an opinion ”
Yes, foxista.
39. DWPittelli:
Fox has done a good job with you.
48. Paul from Hamburg:
“OK show of hands: Anyone think that Vivo, Dave S and Now and Then will ever understand the difference between a fact and an opinion? Anyone?”
I do.
51. HalifaxCB:
“OTOH, I would suggest that others use this as a reminder to keep an eye on the rise of psychological castigation by the Left”
Another one who can’t handle the truth.
53. plutosdad:
“It’s possible we can watch FOX and other channels and see bias when it happens.”
Lots of people have blinders.
62. ScottR:
” – but hey, you must understand, that they are doing it for only the best of reasons.”
Hey, you’re getting there . . .
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:16 pm 106. Gracie:PEEPS:
There is one troll. He is immature, undereducated and untried in the world around him.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:20 pm 107. vivo:So, he sits there all day long and pokes fun at things he doesn’t know about..his quotes are from Huffington and such and he’s always looking to be negative.
The subject doesn’t seem to matter, it’s the mere fact that it’s on PJM. His referrals are usually to some crappy outdated stuff or completely irrelevant and we no longer look, and seldom read “their” posts anymore.
63. Dan Murphy:
“David S. is a paid troll working for MoveOn.org, and through them the DNC and George Soros. She posts under various names including “Vivo” ”
You owe me a big apology.
65. Boyd:
“No doubt you all have noticed how Vivo somehow always manages to get in some over the top quote or comment in the first few comments. I come to this site quite often and am always lost in the flood of comments.”
I’ll make you feel better, here’s my ’secret’: I just luck out to post when the article is first entered. Simple.
“The Progressive bible by Alinsky is their playbook.”
FYI, I never read Alinsky.
67. Conservative Mom:
“And Vivo talks about “truth” – he should be ashamed.”
I’m never ashamed to tell the truth. Sorry you’re blind too.
75. wayne:
“No one ever convinced anyone to go to war (verbal or otherwise) based purely upon a reasoned analysis of facts. The number one reason for that is that other than a few facts of proven physical laws, most other facts are merely observations made upon what info is available or that can be inferred. THIS MEANS THAT MOST “FACTS” ARE MERELY SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS.”
That’s about right. Specially political opinions.
84. deguello:
“They’re fun to expose and insult though!”
The hate-dripping stinky ghoul
92. David C.:
“#3 Vivo’s (somewhat successful) attempt to change the discussion was a subtle psychological manipulation,”
Nobody changed the discussion here if you read the article.
99. Boyd:
“and I think perhaps it was more important than strictly sticking to the topic as written.”
The topic is a guideline, it offers a forum for discussion or information. Good call Boyd.
104. Peeps:
“Perhaps there is not so much discussion from Vivo, N&T, et al as there is just plain trolling by a single individual with a lot of time on their hands.”
Hate to disappoint you. vivo está vivito y coleando.
Oct 29, 2009 - 5:49 pm 108. tanstaafl:I would love to jump all over Obama on this, but the truth is that the Bush administration also went to war against opponents, while not as openly.
I would hate to blast away at your implied moral equivalence, but this administration’s Alinsky Style Fixers, attempting to marginalize a single news organization because some of its opinion shows are critical of The One™, even make Nixon’s media shenanigans look tame.
Not to mention recent attempts to marginalize the Chamber of Commerce and intimidate Humana for sending a letter to its insured.
The Fixers (and their spokespeople, like Anita Dunn) seem unabashed at pushing the envelope to see what will fly and what won’t. AG Eric Holder’s choices of what gets attention & what gets dismissed seem more arbitrary and personal than anything based on law.
Anyway, thanks to the authors of this piece.
Regardless of the vagaries of legal infighting, dissent, in all its forms, is central to the maintenance of a healthy Constitutional Republic.
Oct 29, 2009 - 6:57 pm 109. Weaver:Don’t think it matters, no one remembers the tea parties anymore and its not like they did any good. Its history now just like the Olympic bid failure, Henry Louis Gates, and the Kentucky ice storms (Obama’s Katrina).
Oct 29, 2009 - 7:17 pm 110. Bear:David S.: I love how you fail to differentiate between web site content and an advertisement…priceless
Not so much…just shows me what class of people the site (targets) attracts.
Oh so clever and so proud of yourself. If you weren’t so full of yourself you might have something meaningful to say.
Peace
BS
Oct 29, 2009 - 9:02 pm 111. james:I’ve been doing this for a very long time, and in all those years I have never seen more Americans, as evidenced by the imbecile comments in this thread, to willingly walk themselves to the slaughter. A thought for all you liberals out there who seem to think that shutting people up at gunpoint is a good idea: Robespierre thought he would be forever spared because the whole thing was his idea. And so did Buhkarin. And so did the Gang of Four. And so do you.
Oct 30, 2009 - 7:27 am 112. Now and Then:We, however, will not go meekly. Certainly not with ofay cowards like you telling us we must.
Capice?
109. Weaver:
“the Kentucky ice storms (Obama’s Katrina).”
Talk about trying too hard.
Oct 30, 2009 - 7:58 am 113. deguello:If the Gall and Frommer scenerario materializes,It will set off the second American Revolution. Stay alert,train,resist,win!
Oct 30, 2009 - 10:20 am 114. Gail F:Vivo’s article was pretty good, except that it attacks the wrong people for propaganda. The Obama campaign was one long, masterful propaganda machine, and it’s STILL campaigning!
My favorite part was the dig against Republicans being too stupid to understand the science — but apparently not too stupid to use it.
Folks, the Republican party is at its lowest point in living memory, with only 22 percent of Americans identifying themselves as Republicans, so I guess its few remaining members must be AWFULLY powerful, clandestinely running their own network and all. If the GOP would get its act together, it could have a huge membership because of all the independents and unhappy FORMER Republicans and disaffected Democrats who can’t or won’t join the Republicans. But it’s a mess.
The people who watch and listen to Fox do so because the MSM is completely ignoring major news stories and Fox is the only one covering them. I am not a Republican. But I can see very well that the Emperor has no clothes, despite the talented and hard-working propaganda machine busy praising his tailors.
Oct 31, 2009 - 6:01 pm 115. vivo:114. Gail F:
“If the GOP would get its act together, it could have a huge membership because of all the independents and unhappy FORMER Republicans and disaffected Democrats who can’t or won’t join the Republicans. But it’s a mess”
Things are changing fast these days, or so it seems. There’s always the possibility of a THIRD party. There is always dissatisfaction with the Dems and the Reps. People stay with them because there is strength in numbers and the choice of the lesser evil. All we need is a charismatic, honest, smart leader with common sense goals that benefit the majority. Someone with the best characteristics of a Ralph Nader, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.
Nov 1, 2009 - 3:10 am