65 Comments

1. LeighB:

Tort reform and portability are what are needed to improve health care in the USA. And for the Congress, many of them seem to need hearing tests as they don’t seem to be able to hear their constituents–sure hope their super-duper Cadillac plan has generous benefits in this area. In fact, they should be required to get hearing tests (or do jail time) and post the results on their official web page. Then we’ll know if they can hear but choose not to listen.

While I’m being a bit sarcastic about hearing, what I am deadly serious about is voting against everyone and anyone who supports the current bills. The economy should be your #1 priority and instead you are more concerned about the government takeover of health care. Incredible. Just call me another Independent who will be pulling the “R” lever for many years because of this overreach.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:32 am 2. Finally Free:

First

The advocates of socialized medicine always tell us that it works so wonderfully in Europe, so why not in the USA?

I have started a series of posts investigating that claim through some case studies. Part 1 on Germany (the oldest such system):

http://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/socialized-medicine-part-1-germany/

Part 2 on Israel (the one working under the most favorable conditions):
http://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/socialized-medicine-part-2-israel/

Stay tuned for additional parts.

The long and the short of it: these systems can be made to work, after a fashion, in the short run, but are unsustainable in the long run. Now extrapolate to US scale, and much less favorable conditions…

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:58 am 3. CLU:

But given that the sample also includes such well known bastions of free-market ideals like ABC News, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, CBS News, CNN, and the New York Times, I think it is safe to say that the analysis isn’t compromised due to some skewed right selection of data sources.

LMAAO…

Now for a serious comment-

The conservative health care insurance company reform public option has passed congress,
now we need a life insurance company reform.

It has been my sad sales experience in life to discover that a clients refusal to buy health insurance will never buy life insurance.

Senators Harry Reid and Chris Dodd need to force a $250,000 dollar life insurance policy attached to each client, rich or poor, sick or healthy, so that we can continue to pay for health costs and benefits.
These $250,000 life insurance polices should have a rich’s man public option with no 6 months pre existing conditions and no 2 year suicide clause.
But I do believe that suicide bombers should be excluded because there’s not much left to fool with.

AIG and other government entities could be forced to underwrite these policies and we could public option them out at our local post office or DMV.

Please write and complain to your congressman.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:33 am 4. Rich Vail:

What this is about isn’t health care reform. It’s about making a radical departure to the American economic system. Those who lead the Democratic Party want to institute European (or Venezualan) style economic “reforms”. What that means is government direction (i.e. control) of the means of economic production. Just as the socialists in Europe do. Unfortunately, that system doesn’t work very well in that very high unemployment rates (above 8%) are considered normal.

Additionally, the European socialistic model also requires much higher tax rates in order to pay for all those services that intrusive government requires. These services are of such importance…that the economic fabric of those successful socialistic states (like Sweden) are now beginning to creak and fray. Many of those governments are now considering reducing taxes and services in order to maintain those “core” services. Sweden, this year, has reduced taxes for the first time in 70 years as a means to jump start their economy and encourage businesses to hire more people…unfortunately, neither the Obama Administration, nor this Congress understand what they are attempting to do.

On the other hand, the (nebulous) “people” understand a shell game, and aren’t impressed with what is occuring. Thus, the growing unpoplarity of many of the proposals now being considered by Congress and this administration. What the Democratic leadership in this country are trying to do now is to enact those sweeping changes that they have long dreamed of while they still control both the Congress and the Presidency.Eventually, an election will come along and they will be swept out of power. Their main agenda is to enact huge entitlement programs while they have the opportunity, and hope that they won’t be dismantled later (to date NOT 1 entitement program, no matter how disfunctional has ever been repealed). After all, Medicare, which has exceeded it’s funding mandate more than 10x’s it’s predicted cost is still with us, despite those “triggers” that were emplaced.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:12 am 5. venividivici:

The Left will just claim that it’s “false consciousness”, inculcated by the “right-wing noise machine” driving these results. It won’t be true, but they’ll claim it, just like they’ve claimed it on every issue on which the public disagrees with them.

Their other claim will be that once it’s in place, people will love it, so it should just get passed anyway. I think there’s a dangerous disconnect there (among other places where there’s a disconnect) between the Left, which thinks that single-payer is even greater than sliced bread, and the typical consumer of health care, who is, by all accounts pretty satisfied, except with cost, but that is a given due to human nature being what it is and people not liking to pay for things.

In any case, good work gathering up the data and I think your basic point is correct about the lack of popularity for these particular “reforms”. It’s nice to have a handy reference point with all this polling data in one place.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:48 am 6. Mr. Independant:

Dear Andy,

Thank you for the article. It’s refreshing to see actual polling and/or statistics supplied in support of a position of an article on this website. I think though that you’re confusing the overall citizenry with voters. Baby boomers and their parents make up the majority of all voters but not all Americans. While the majority of all senior citizens are against the various healthcare ‘reforms’ they do not represent the majority of all Americans. Any thoughts?

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:53 am 7. hoads:

The polls do not matter. They intend to railroad this through no matter what. They have too much to lose and will use any means necessary including blackmail and extortion all the while declaring they are “doing the people’s work”. They know they can take cover in the fact that the most onerous parts of the bill do not come into fruition until 2013 or later and in the meantime, they and their media sycophants are banking that the ignorant and uninformed will bask in their false hope of something for nothing.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:03 am 8. Paul -Indiana:

Hey, wassamatter for u? mmm mmm mmm

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:20 am 9. HalifaxCB:

The Gallup poll released today is pretty clear

Do you think it is the the responsibility of the federal government to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage, or is that not the responsibility of the federal government?

% Yes – 47%
% No – 50%

What’s even more interesting of course, is the trend, which has beenn increasingly “no” since 2006.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/124253/Say-Health-Coverage-Not-Gov-Responsibility.aspx

I would suspect that this trend is part of why the Obama administration sees the need to take it over as quickly, and with as little debate, as possible.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:33 am 10. CLU:

Anyone else notice that when the fires of Presidential responsibility start burning here at home.
Our Dear Leader takes off to some foreign lands to get their praise and put off until next month what he should have stood firm on last month.

But at least former President Bush is making speeches and telling us what we should be doing.

Bush should announce that he will guide/lead the country while Pres. Hopenchange is doing his celebrity world tours,

I’m sure Obama would agree,
rather than have to make those painful decisions.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:39 am 11. goy:

I suppose all these polls would matter if we made these decisions by mob rule.

We don’t.

The only question worth pursuing is whether or not the Constitution authorizes the general government to force individuals to purchase health care insurance and/or operate a ponzi / insurance scam.

It’d be nice if someone would just take this issue to the SCOTUS and let them either affirm or distort the real meaning of the “general welfare” clause once and for all, so we could move past whether or not this country is going to become socialist or remain free market capitalist.

All this waffling, as the pendulum swings further left with each cycle, is almost as detrimental as the socially suicidal leftward lurch.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:24 am 12. John "birther" Samford:

What #4 said, with this addition;
EVERYBODY wants something for nothing. It is a human condition that goes by the term GREED.
Children think they can get something for nothing, since in their limited experience they do. Actually, their parents pay for what they get for ‘free’ but that doesn’t count to a child.
Adults realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Everything is paid for. If not directly, with money or thru trade, then indirectly thru influence or ‘favors’.
With modern societies attack on families, more children are putting off becoming adults thru the process of creating a family of their own. So you have 30 something year old children. They are just starting to figure out TTINSTAAFL. So the polling just shows what the ratio of Children to Adults is.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:07 am 13. Moho:

If you had that nickel, you’d still be a poor man compared to me, an investor in Republican hypocrisy, receiving dividends every time Republicans are publicly outed for engaging in exactly the kind of behavior they seek to outlaw. Another nickel in my pocket:

The GOP platform traditionally includes strong anti-abortion language. All House Republicans, except one, voted for an amendment imposing restrictions of coverage for abortions in the health care bill that passed the House last Saturday. Inclusion of the abortion restrictions prompted an angry backlash from liberal House Democrats, and some are now threatening to vote against a final bill if the curbs stay in.

The memo said the RNC received a phone call from a reporter on Wednesday asking whether the RNC’s health care policy, through Cigna, covered elective abortions for employees. On Thursday, Politico.com published a report citing two sales agents for Cigna who said the RNC’s policy covered elective abortion.

The Cigna employees said the RNC didn’t choose to opt out of abortion coverage when given the opportunity, Politico.com reported.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:09 am 14. sixfingers:

Mr. Obama’s health care plan is already working.
We have known about the h1n1 for almost a year.
We still do not have enough vaccine for everyone.
Over 4000 people have died because of the flu.
The people who are dieing are the people with some kind of a problem. Obama does not want sick people in his sick plan.
A friend of mine went to the doctor to have his blood sugar checked. His blood sugar was 162. The doctor told his that blood sugar wa just fine. This was his morning check. His blood sugar should be around 100. My friend is 75 years old. My friend could be given a drug to lower his blood sugar. Obama wants to save money. Obama’s plan is starting to work.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:16 am 15. JED:

The gold star lie is that any of the 7 (?) plans “will not add a dime to the deficit.”
Expect the propagandists to repeat this lie until they are sure that someone believes it. Above all, the propagandists will never bring up the issue of stealth taxes. Guess how many stealth taxes the populace are already paying.
Perhaps the pollsters should ask if discretionary income is a good idea.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:22 am 16. goy:

@13. Moho: – The Cigna employees said the RNC didn’t choose to opt out of abortion coverage when given the opportunity…

“The CIGNA employees said”?? Hmmm… well even if they’re telling the truth AND they’re correct (which, based on my personal experience working with CIGNA employees requires a leap of faith to believe) all this does is support what most of us have been saying all along: the RNC and GOP’s so-called “leadership” have drifted into Socialist Lite® territory, and need to be replaced with Constitutional Conservatives.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:41 am 17. keithacita:

the european health care states are bigger debtors on a percentage basis than the u.s.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:00 am 18. Poor Citizen:

Well, for me, it dont matter what America wants, one way or another. There are times when our elected leaders must do what is right and what is required. This is one of those times. Health Care Reform must be passed and shame on those representatives that do not support it. Billions for wars, Billions for Banks and Oil Companies, Billions for doctors and drug companies, they get theirs. What about our people? What about us? This reform bill must be passed. Its the right thing to do.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:18 am 19. MrT:

The choice for citizens is clear, finance the other candidates, vote for the other candidates and by all means get involved and stay informed.
These sheep including those who were given a “pass” by Bella Pelosi to vote No, still believe in the bill. Take note of your Senators, write them and call them and if this bill should pass, resolve to do ALL that you can to get the bums out. We will clean house and senate!

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:07 pm 20. MrT:

Who says this healthcare reform is the “Right” thing to do…this is BS and rhetoric to get more power to the government. Just as parents say to their children “no” and for good reason, the American people know that the time to say NO is now. That is why MORE people every day are turning against this. Why should the system be changed to cover only 4% of the people? That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard…another village is missing an idiot! The post office, DMV, medicare and social security are FAILURES!! Why should we add our healthcare..this will end up costing everybody MORE money. They’ve hidden money for this in the budget and call the bill deficit neutral – lies day in and day out. With the exception of the elderly and the disabled who are covered with medicare and medicaid, everybody else – GET OUT AND GET A JOB! No one is refused medical care in a hospital – get informed for a change.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:12 pm 21. Moho:

the RNC and GOP’s so-called “leadership” have drifted into Socialist Lite® territory, and need to be replaced with Constitutional Conservatives.

Illiteracy suits you. Don’t change. What’s funny is to see you and the GOP leadership run in separate obfuscatory directions with your heads on fire:

Here’s Steele blaming it on the past RNC, the people you were supporting before this drift to socialism:
“I don’t know why this policy existed in the past, but it will not exist under my administration. Consider this issue settled.”

Steele instructed staff to inform the insurance carrier that the RNC wanted to opt out of elective abortion coverage, RNC spokeswoman Gail Gitcho said. She said the policy has been in effect since 1991.

Please Goy, more posts!

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:16 pm 22. TriGeek:

Poor Citizen: The greatness of American was not a result of its citizens asking, “What about me?” Be a man, make you own way, and don’t expect someone else to handle your problems for you.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:25 pm 23. venividivici:

13. Moho:

Well, now I know the poll data is so bad that even Moho can’t spin it as good and has to change the subject.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:49 pm 24. Moho:

Veni–>I have no interest in spinning the poll. Vast majorities in for years have opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, who cares. Let’s not pretend we live in a democracy or that we lived in one 6 years ago either.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/19/AR2009081903066.html

A majority of Americans now see the war in Afghanistan as not worth fighting, and just a quarter say more U.S. troops should be sent to the country, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:11 pm 25. David 7134:

I don’t think the average American understands what is at issue. The question should be do you want to live in a socialized society similar to the Soviet Union or would you like to have your freedom? Most people know there is a problem with the insurance industry, they just can’t understand that this bill has nothing to do with that issue.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:58 pm 26. Rich Vail:

My comment #4 above I expanded a great deal on my blog if you’re interested…please take a look and comment.

Thanks

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:02 pm 27. venividivici:

24

Blah, blah, blah.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:05 pm 28. ConservativeWanderer:

Maybe some of these oh-so-intelligent pro-health-care-reform folks could explain why, if this bill is so wonderful, the Democrats in Congress voted against an amendment requiring all elected officials–including the Democratic CongressCritters–to sign up for whatever public plan gets enacted?

I mean, if it’s so good for the American people, shouldn’t it also be good for the American CongressCritter?

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:03 pm 29. Marc Malone:

#24 Moho – In mid-2007, when the Surge was being implemented, 55% of Americans opposed the war in Iraq. Bush had gone forward, practically alone, and won the damned war. Now, it’s all good. War cannot be waged following public opinion. Furthermore, wars can be ended, militaries can be shrunk, but government spending programs go on forever.

Another thing, the Prez has a different role from Congress. Your Congressmans is supposed to represent his district’s voters. He’s supposed to speak with their voice. While I didn’t like Cao’s support for the Healthcare monstrosity, I respected that it really was the will of his district. The Pubs in Congress understood that. The Dems don’t get this. They want what THEY want.

There are rare times when they should go against the will of the people, things like war, because they have access to classified intel that the people don’t have. Then they must do their duty to the country as a whole, but healthcare does NOT fall into that category. Heck, most people seem to understand the issue better than their Congresscritters. They are even more likely to have read the damned bill.

This is the biggest reason the idiot Dems are having troublee trying to pass a bill. Shrink the bill. Read the bill. Don’t try to sell us a pig in a poke, especially when you yourself don’t know if it is really a pig in that particular poke. They are clearly voting blindly. THIS is the problem.

They don’t know what they themselves are voting for. It could be anything, and you can’t help but get the feeling that they are fine with that. They’ll vote for any bill, as long as it is labelled national healthcare. It’s their Holy Grail. This makes the public distrust them.

If they had just K.I.S.S.’d, they could have easily passed it. Modify it later by bits. Game over. So, they have lost the public trust, and they have lost. Thank God, the Dems are so stupid.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:11 pm 30. goy:

@18. Poor Citizen: – Well, for me, it dont matter what America wants, one way or another.

Then you should move to Cuba, since – assuming you’re an American citizen – you haven’t the slightest clue what America’s all about.

.

@21. Moho: – Here’s Steele blaming it on the past RNC…

Duh. These days that’s called ‘politics’. And once again you’ve failed to make a point.

Steele’s comments are just more evidence that the RNC needs a total housecleaning, as many of us have been saying. Allowing himself to be taken by suprise on this red herring is stupid enough. Allowing himself to be frightened into acting as though it is something OTHER THAN a red herring, is a perfect example of why he should quit pretending to be a leader and go back to liability litigation.

You really needn’t work so hard to look so stupid. Your credibility is already less than zero, so it’s just wasted effort. Keep on backpedaling, though – THAT is entertaining. Sing out again any time you need it spelled out for you. Happy to set you straight. Again.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:22 pm 31. Moho:

Goy. Please.

the RNC and GOP’s so-called “leadership” have drifted into Socialist Lite® territory, and need to be replaced with Constitutional Conservatives.

Pretty obvious you had no idea that its a near two decade old policy. Or is Steele a socialist because he wants to eliminate the abortion benefits from the coverage, lol. You can’t hang little man. Like I always say, tell it to your wife, I don’t feel sorry for you.

Veni. Indeed, you’ve never been so articulate.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:07 pm 32. venividivici:

Veni. Indeed, you’ve never been so articulate.

Moho, the day I take your judgment seriously is the day I blow my head off. Head’s still on.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:42 pm 33. ConservativeWanderer:

Indeed, Veni.

If Moho told me stone was hard, I’d try out a rock as a pillow.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:09 pm 34. white tiger:

The government is going to make my health care decisions the next cold day in Hell.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:48 pm 35. goy:

@31. Moho: – Pretty obvious you had no idea that its a near two decade old policy.

Really? What was your first clue, nimrod?

OTOH, it’s pretty obvious you need to look up ‘red herring’.

You still don’t understand contemporary career politicos. Just like BHO lies, pretending not to be a far-far-left marxist/corporatist/fascist/socialist/syndicalist, Steele and the Socialist Lite® RNC lie, pretending not to be far-left opportunists. Steele pretends to be Shocked… SHOCKED that his insurance policy covered abortions on demand. Clearly – just like all the a$$holes currently infesting Congress, who don’t read the bills they pass – he obviously never cared enough about the issue to be bothered into reading the policy, nor did any of his predecessors.

In your swamp fevered mind, that makes Steele’s predecessors hypocrites, and anyone who supported them stupid. But the reality outside your miniscule brain is that it just makes them oblivious to the details of their health benefits, and anyone who supported them most likely is just as clueless about their OWN health care policy. For anyone other than people like you – who are NOT trying to make political hay off of fetus murder – it’s a… red herring.

You’ll eventually figure it out. Maybe. If you ever grow a clue. This late in the game, however, that’s one big, hairy ‘if’. Shout out any time. I’m always here to help when you need it.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:46 pm 36. venividivici:

33

I look at Moho’s posts as analogous to what they call in Middle East politics, “the Arab Street”, only, for “Arab” I substitute “Pustule on the Ass Of Humanity”. It doesn’t quite capture how little I think of his intellect, insight or character, but there’s no word in English that does, so I go with the best option available.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:28 pm 37. Exactly!:

When I was growing up and attending a real school with discipline and standards, we learned that historically, “liberals” were anti-government, free thinking liberationists who wanted to be left to their own devices with equal opportunity for all.

In our topsy turvy world, “liberals” now want to be coddled, swathed and nursed. All those old lefty hippies who hated the government in the 60’s now adore the totalitarian regime that is Obama and cant get enough of big business bucks and control (to wit: Progressive Insurance, Warren Buffett and his anything but green companies, General Electric, Google – the world’s biggest snoop).

Is it a sea change or just the result of years of drug use and laziness destroying brain cells and thus rationality and self determination?

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:31 pm 38. granny liberty:

If they pass this healthcare thing, we all, and I mean everyone of us, need to refuse; millions of us; power in numbers; they cannot put us all in jail. Secondly, we all need to take a look at all the other mandates and pet projects they are sneaking into this bill that do not even apply to healthcare.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:50 pm 39. Rubicon:

Lets be real here. As many have already posted or alluded to, the real reason for this proposed health care overhaul, is not health care.
The real reason is to establish another huge government employee bureaucracy. The unions love it since a majority of federal employees are unionized. The unions see, more dues, more power over individuals in bargaining, and, more political power to force politicians to enact legislation ‘the union’ wants or likes.
Wonder what folks will do when we all work for the government and no one produces anything?

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:19 pm 40. Delia:

38. granny liberty,

I doubt they’d jail us (that would ‘cost’ something). No, they’d just keep charging us with interest or automatically have it taken out of our paychecks like employers are forced to do with child-support payments and numerous taxes withheld etc.

The scenarios could get mighty ugly.

Freedom? Gee, the last time I checked I was pretty certain my body belonged to me.

Where’s my opt-out option like the Congressholes get?

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:21 pm 41. vivo:

18. Poor Citizen:

“Well, for me, it doesn’t matter what America wants, one way or another. There are times when our elected leaders must do what is right and what is required. This is one of those times. Health Care Reform must be passed and shame on those representatives that do not support it. Billions for wars, Billions for Banks and Oil Companies, Billions for doctors and drug companies, they get theirs. What about our people? What about us? This reform bill must be passed. Its the right thing to do.”

You spoke my mind.

Ironically, the people who most protest against it now will get more personal benefit after it passes. See all those sturdy conservatives who oppose socialism using Food Stamps and Medicare.
(wide smile)

Nov 14, 2009 - 3:12 am 42. Marc Malone:

This kinda reminds me of Revelations after the Rapture. To avoid the system, you have to avoid the number. You have to go underground; drop off the grid.

Nov 14, 2009 - 4:01 am 43. Michael Kirsch, M.D:

Don’t say that the Dems lie; this is too harsh. Use prevaricate instead. They continue to want to punish success. Pelosi won’t give any funds to a state to study tort reform if the have enacted tort reform. Punish states that have done the right thing. Of course, her version of ‘tort reform’ doesn’t include caps or even examining attorneys’ fees. What’s left? See http://www.MDWhistleblower.blogspot.com under Legal Quality

Nov 14, 2009 - 6:14 am 44. Delia:

41. vivo,

Medicare is going bankrupt for cripe’s sake. You think a bigger version of the government pyramid scheme is going to work? Honey chile, whatchoo be smokin’?

42. Marc Malone,

To avoid the number, you’ll also have to avoid those vaccines with the hidden nano microchips in ‘em too (it’s not implausible).

43. Michael Kirsch, M.D.,

Considering the percentage of lawyers in politics is it any wonder they’d protect their own? So much for ‘caring’ about health costs eh?

-But, what *do* we do with ‘bad’ doctors who are government employees? Do we ’sue’ them and how long would that take? And what happens to the ‘bad’ doctor? If we take a look at what schools do with ‘bad’ teachers (i.e. move them to another school district rather than fire them), then the idea of finding a ‘good’ doctor who will put up with being owned by the Gov is going to be a real crap-shoot.

Nov 14, 2009 - 8:49 am 45. Landru:

Moho, do the obvious explanations for things ever occur to you? That the option to opt out of elective abortion coverage was overlooked/missed when they bought the policy 20 years ago and nobody ever noticed it or did anything about it since? Or do you just revert to the far-fetched and think that Cigna pointed this out explicitly at the time and someone in HR called a meeting about it in which they agreed to keep it? Do you really think this is how it works?

“The Cigna employees said the RNC didn’t choose to opt out of abortion coverage when given the opportunity, Politico.com reported.”

Deliberately misleading language trying to suggest that there was an overt action by Cigna employees to draw attention to it, followed by a conscious choice by NRC to keep it after being informed of such choice, neither of which are at all likely. Try again.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:26 am 46. Elizabeth:

It they’re going to cram this virus of a health bill down our throats, at least they could at least read it.

When our legislators don’t read and research the bills they pass into law, we often end up with gross violations of our rights or serious waste. And we end up with economic bubbles which burst and put us into serious recessions.

Gross waste: Bush Bailout, Stimulus package
Economic Bubble: Revising the Community Reinvestment Act, repealing of the Glass-Steagall Act, lowering lending requirements for financial institutions.

Legislators should read, understand and research the actual bill they are to pass, not some watered down interpretation to what the bill says.

We elect and pay them to do a good job, not pass the buck to someone unseen person we didn’t elect. Sometimes it’s what’s not in the bill that causes the most harm. You can’t know about these without personally reading the actual bill, and dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s.

Legislators should be proud enough of their work that they aren’t afraid to post their legislation on the Internet before the vote.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:50 am 47. Landru:

Vivo:

“Ironically, the people who most protest against it now will get more personal benefit after it passes. See all those sturdy conservatives who oppose socialism using Food Stamps and Medicare.”

Geez, Vivo, last time I checked voting was done by secret ballot, yet you somehow have gotten your hands on data that correlate individual votes to the use of Food Stamps. Quite a feat.
And Food Stamps are a safety net for the poor. Government funded safety nets for the poor are no more socialistic than charities running a soup kitchen are. More nonsensical arguments. Medicare likewise is a safety net for the elderly, (which they have paid for with their own money, BTW) not all-encompassing control over everyone. Another nonsensical attempt at equivalence, based on the irrational notion that any role of government in society is socialism, and if government plays one role in one area, it therefore follows that it is perfectly reasonable for it to control everything. Not even rising to the level of irrational, just pure anti-logic, the hallmark of the mind of the leftist at work.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:52 am 48. venividivici:

41

Ironically, the people who most protest against it now will get more personal benefit after it passes. See all those sturdy conservatives who oppose socialism using Food Stamps and Medicare.
(wide smile)

The “wide smile” of a moron, no doubt.

Considering the ways in which these programs, with dollars taken by the government under force of law, your point is moot. You’re like the bully who grabs a guy’s arm and makes him punch himself, then says “Why are you punching yourself?”

Open those programs up to being “opt-in or opt-out” and your little head will spin at how fast conservatives do so, leaving only those incapable of managing their own lives in them. As it stands, for most people who aren’t making significant dollars, it’s simply not feasible to be able to meet day-to-day expenses AND save enough to make up the financial resources that Medicare provides for seniors (yes, it does provide a “good deal”, which, wait for it, is precisely why it’s going friggin’ bankrupt). Give people the option of saving the payroll tax currently dedicated to Medicare in a tax-deferred savings account that they own and most conservatives would be happy to do so, just as they do now with IRAs and 401(k)s.

If you were any more superficial, you’d be occupying negative space.

Nov 14, 2009 - 12:51 pm 49. Moho:

Goy
In your swamp fevered mind, that makes Steele’s predecessors hypocrites, and anyone who supported them stupid. But the reality outside your miniscule brain is that it just makes them oblivious to the details of their health benefits, and anyone who supported them most likely is just as clueless about their OWN health care policy. For anyone other than people like you – who are NOT trying to make political hay off of fetus murder – it’s a… red herring.

Really, Veni’s written dumber things, but Goy you really capture something of the moment for you people. If you’re clueless about your own health care policy, THEN GO TAKE CARE OF YOUR HEALTH POLICY FIRST, BEFORE MAKING DEMANDS ABOUT WHAT THE REST OF US NEED TO DO. Idiot. Fetus murder indeed. How many fetus murders do you suppose the RNC paid for in the last twenty years, genius? Paid for by your contributions. The idea of an organization that doesn’t even pay attention to its own health care policy restricting what’s in the policies of others has to be the epitome of everything that’s stupid, and correspondingly, representative of the Republican party and its minions–including those too cowardly to admit it in this day of toilet level credibility. Pretend that you’ve suddenly found God on the way to Damascus all you want, you’re not getting off that sinking ship.

As for Veni.
but there’s no word in English that does, so I go with the best option available.

Here you go.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/

When I was a kid, and learning English, its what helped me develop a good vocabulary. I realize that people of your political stripe are more comfortable asking for help, than actually figuring things out your own, so here’s a one time solid for you. In just a few months, your reading comprehension and writing will improve and you’ll no doubt become articulate enough to get through the first five minutes of a job interview. You’re welcome.

Nov 14, 2009 - 1:40 pm 50. venividivici:

Here you go.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/

When I was a kid, and learning English, its what helped me develop a good vocabulary. I realize that people of your political stripe are more comfortable asking for help, than actually figuring things out your own, so here’s a one time solid for you. In just a few months, your reading comprehension and writing will improve and you’ll no doubt become articulate enough to get through the first five minutes of a job interview. You’re welcome.

Moho, you stupid loser, it’s not the lack of a thesaurus that leaves me wordless at your stupidity, it’s the depths of your stupidity that’s unprecedented. It’s like when in science, measurement instrumentation reaches a new plateau of precision and they have to make up a new word to describe the unit of measure. A “moho” of stupidity, so to speak.

Yeah, I ask for help from Aristotle, Plato, Nietzsche, Machiavelli, Caesar, Wyndham Lewis and the Founding Fathers and I’m not ashamed in the slightest, since the sweat off their nutsack is more intelligent than the “smartest” Leftist dirtbag.

You know what they say about you? You’re a worthless worm who will suck the life out of people better than you if given a chance, so be on guard against giving you the chance.

Nov 14, 2009 - 5:45 pm 51. goy:

@49. Moho: – The idea of an organization that doesn’t even pay attention to its own health care policy restricting what’s in the policies of others has to be the epitome of everything that’s stupid…

Wow. I guess you really are that self-blinded. Do you think anyone in the DNC knew every detail of their health care policy when they decided to begin dictating what everyone in the country should get for “coverage”? Do you think they have bothered to educate themselves even now that someone’s tried to make an issue out of it? Don’t make me laugh. You’re too stupid to see anything hypocritical in that.

What’s funnier is that the poor pathetic RNC only started whining about government-funded fetus murder in the health care bill because they were duped into thinking it will get them power. They’re almost as pathetic as you.

You obviously don’t even comprehend what you’ve written here. Your myopic rage against “Republicans”, and some ‘political stripe’ you think you perceive, prevents you from ever doing so. ALL politicians fit the description you’ve constructed – not just “Republicans”. When you figure that out, you’ll understand why this entire issue you’re clinging to so desperately is a red herring. And it’s designed specifically to reel in useful, rage-filled idiots just like you.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:19 pm 52. venividivici:

Do you think anyone in the DNC knew every detail of their health care policy when they decided to begin dictating what everyone in the country should get for “coverage”?

Hey, goy, you can’t blame a drowning man for grasping at a reed, now. Of course, if that “drowning man” is the Left, you can push his stupid head under the water to make sure he drowns.

Nov 14, 2009 - 8:52 pm 53. df:

A passing of health reform will not hurt Democrats since most Americans who get there coverage through work will not see any changes and demagoguery by Republicans by such statements as GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER are untrue reform and bogus.
There are half million American going bankrupt each year as the result medical bills and 80% percent of those has insurance as least when the illness began and 45,000 die each year due to lack of access.
In other industrialized countries people going bankrupt is unheard of and would be scandalous.
NOT passing healthcare reform will hurt Democrats I for one will stay home next election day

Nov 14, 2009 - 10:30 pm 54. moho:

Veni, lol

Moho, you stupid loser, it’s not the lack of a thesaurus that leaves me wordless at your stupidity, it’s the depths of your stupidity that’s unprecedented.

You used stupid or variant three times in one sentence, so I beg to differ. Really boring reading.

Nov 15, 2009 - 7:45 am 55. moho:

Do you think anyone in the DNC knew every detail of their health care policy when they decided to begin dictating what everyone in the country should get for “coverage”?

Well, actually a huge chunk of their pr platform is based on providing the same coverage that federal employees get, so yes…lol. Self-Pwnage, thy name is Goy!

ALL politicians fit the description you’ve constructed – not just “Republicans”.

I actually agree with that. But I find it funny that none of your posts ever seem to reflect that sentiment. Your kneejerk defense of the Republicans—and a very weak one, at that, based obviously on tribal affiliation, not logic–seems to indicate all the opposite. I remarked on your seeming conversion, but I do note that it seems to be a recent one, especially because you tried to blame the RNC debacle on Steele while defending previous RNC administrations.

Tell me Goy, when did this conversion occur?

Nov 15, 2009 - 7:52 am 56. goy:

@55. moho: – …a huge chunk of their pr platform…

Only in the left’s morally adolescent Bizarro World does ‘pr’ equal actual policy. And this claim is hardly evidence that anyone in the DNC has the slightest clue regarding all the details of their health care coverage. No such evidence exists.

– … I find it funny that none of your posts ever seem to reflect that sentiment.

The only funny thing is that you haven’t been reading what I’ve (or anyone else here has) been writing; you’ve been reading what’s tattooed on the inside of your forehead, which is your fantasy version of what I’m writing. You’re incapable of responding to what’s written, so you make sh!t up and ‘respond’ to that, a/k/a straw man.

Here’s a perfect example: “…you tried to blame the RNC debacle on Steele while defending previous RNC administrations.” I’ve already demonstrated that this entire issue is a red herring (and your selective blindness keeps ignoring it). That’s not a ‘defense’ of the RNC, it’s calling B.S. on a bogus criticism. As such, I haven’t tried to defend anyone or blame anyone for anything. You’re the one doing that.

Your ravings are nothing less than you transferring your fantasies about Steele onto me, to wit: “Here’s Steele blaming it on the past RNC…” morphs into “…you tried to blame the RNC debacle on Steele while defending previous RNC administrations.” Clinical transference.

I know the whole issue is bogus. You are the only one here who thinks previous RNC administrations did anything in this regard that requires defense. Steele is just kowtowing to The Left Wing Media, looking for a way to avoid the appearance of incompetence they’re projecting onto him, because he’s just a failed lawyer, not a real leader, and he doesn’t know any other way to respond. In this, he’s following GWB’s example – GWB did exactly the same thing for the entire 8 years that the Anti-Bush Party and its lapdogs in The Left Wing Media lied about and attacked him and his adminstration 24/7/365 (thus, giving us an economy-destroying Democrat Congress in 2006 and a Republic-destroying President in 2008).

- Your kneejerk defense of the Republicans…

The knee-jerk you think you’re seeing is just your own knee impacting your own forehead. Last time I checked, Steele claims to be a Republican. So does McCain. On more than one occasion, I’ve referred to McCain as a Socialist. I’ve noted that GWB was an absolutely abysmal leader and that his “compassionate conservatism” is nothing less than Socialist Lite® a number of times. All three (and others) have turned out to be self-aggrandizing opportunists, and I’ve made that clear many times. And the ‘recent conversion’ you’re fantasizing is just you not paying attention. Again, you’re constructing a straw man driven by your raging, unreasoning hatred of anything labeled “Republican” and your insipid, suicidally naive, morally adolescent, black-and-white view of the world.

Calling B.S. on a bogus criticism of Republicans (or anyone else, for that matter) is not a “defense” of Republicans, it’s an appropriate response to a bogus criticism.

Nov 15, 2009 - 11:35 am 57. moho:

Only in the left’s morally adolescent Bizarro World does ‘pr’ equal actual policy. And this claim is hardly evidence that anyone in the DNC has the slightest clue regarding all the details of their health care coverage. No such evidence exists.

Of course yer right. There is no evidence that they do, and there is no evidence that they don’t. That, my friend, is a classic red herring. You don’t have to thank me for demonstrating the definition of this word that is so obviously not in your vocabulary.

Like many Republicans, your current revulsion with the Republicans is based on a reading of the Democrats. You seek to distance yourself from the Republican defeated brand, their record disapproval ratings by claiming that you were always against them BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO MUCH LIKE DEMOCRATS! LOL. You are now an indpendent or perhaps even a LIbertarian…. Who do you think you’re fooling you coward. I respect the idiots who write the drivel in these columns far more [and you can measure this in micro-give-a-sh&&^ts] because they actually have some kind of consistency. A look at your blog circa 2005, before the gloss came off your idol, shows you solidly behind Bush in every way, shape and form. Why do you bother to lie about it and then give me a link where I can find this:

Second, now that this strategy is succeeding, now that al Qaeda and the Taliban have been neutralized in Afghanistan, now that the link between Saddam and al Qaeda has been severed, now that millions in Syrian kickbacks from the Oil-For-Food Programme are no longer flowing into terrorists’ offshore accounts, now that Iraqis have held their first election, and surrounding countries – Lebanon, Egypt, Iran – are feeling the pangs of the desire for self-government – now that all of these things are happening, enormous efforts are being exerted to downplay the validity of that strategy, and paint it’s lynchpin – Iraq’s inevitably difficult recovery from decades of homicidal tyranny – with the false colors of illegitimacy and “quagmire”…The war in Iraq is over. Saddam lost. Mission accomplished. Now we move to the next phase – the replacement of a murderous, insane ideology with one that the Islamic world can use to flourish in peace. That alternative is alluded to by acknowledgements such as that of Victor Hanson:Taking the fight to the terrorists has been Phase One and so far, despite herculean efforts by the MSM and Bush/Blair-haters to mischaracterize this fight as everything from American Imperialism to muslim genocide, it has been successful.

Nice work, Einstein. As I said, I wish you’d write more. No one makes a fool of themselves quite like you.

Nov 15, 2009 - 1:35 pm 58. goy:

@57. moho: – Of course yer right. There is no evidence that they do …

QED. And again, you really should go and actually look up ‘red herring’.

- Like many Republicans, your current revulsion with the Republicans is based on a reading of the Democrats.

There you go again, nimrod, projecting motives from your own paranoid, fevered fantasyworld onto others. You just can’t seem to breathe without the assistive aid of a straw man fallacy.

You just refuse to get it. I’m not an “Independent”. I’m not a “Libertarian”. I’m not labeling myself in anyway that might make you feel more comfortable. And what’s more, I’m not distancing myself from Republicans in any way. I’m rejecting bogus, lying, opportunistic, craven Republicans-in-name-only who are not representing their erstwhile, conservative base and who are in NO way preserving the Republican form of Government guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. I’m doing this in precisely the same way I rejected bogus, lying, opportunistic, craven Democrats when it became clear that they’d abandoned any pretense of obeying the Constitution in favor of beating the drum for Socialism’s long march through American institutions.

- A look at your blog circa 2005…

You copied. You pasted. You bolded (actually, bolded a quote from someone else, LOL!!). But, as usual, you choked at the end.

Hazarding a guess – since you never made a point – you appear to believe that support for a President’s foreign policy – and, more importantly, rejecting politically motivated, bogus attacks on that foreign policy – automatically signifies unqualified support for him in every other area. Sorry, that’s how ideologically blind, leftist idiots think. That would be you. And that’s why you try to project that sort of irrational behavior onto me.

How sad and empty your naive, morally adolescent, black-and-white world must be. No wonder you’re such a rage-filled hack.

Nov 15, 2009 - 5:34 pm 59. goy:

oh and by the way, mohommed…

…anyone who likes can take a look at the article I wrote, from which you copied, pasted, bolded… and choked. The point, ultimately, was in the part you sloppily edited out of your cite (which you seem to make a habit of doing when you want to lie about a quote):

I believe that’s part of the reason we see no more Ernie Pyles in “mainstream” journalism, hijacked as it seems to be by a radical, vengeful element of the Democratic party which still believes “Gore Won”.

Incessant press and partisan hysteria has focused on “lies” used to justify the liberation of Iraq – lies that were apparently held as truth by every major intelligence agency in the world. Additional press and partisan hysteria has focused on isolated elements of the war itself, specifically Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay – despite the fact that while these issues certainly need to be addressed, they are the minutiae of war. Still more press and partisan hysteria seeks to paint recent terrorism in the UK as something caused by the liberation of Iraq while conveniently and disingenuously ignoring the terrorist acts stretching as far back as 1979.

This is hardly evidence of being “solidly behind Bush” – especially “in every way, shape and form.” That’s just another fallacy – in this case a sweeping generalization based on your inability to comprehend what you read.

As you’ve already been instructed, calling B.S. on a bogus criticism of Republicans (or attacks, in this case) is not a “defense” of Republicans, it’s an appropriate response to a bogus criticism.

Nov 15, 2009 - 5:49 pm 60. RYan:

Its funny how all conservatives flip from either all being rich fat cat oil barons who can’t understand poor people, or people hipocritically using food stamps while opposing socialism depending on what facetious argument a liberal want to make at that particular time. Make up your minds.

And just because you recieve a benefit does not mean you approve of its existance. Just like the fact that someone is African American does not mean they have to approve of affirmative action, the fact that they are old does not mean they have to think social security is a good thing . . .

And they fact that they recieve social security after paying a tax for it all their lives doesn’t make them a hippocrite either.

I realize that you can’t actually argue for your programs on their merits so you try to attack the opposition instead of the argtument, but really, come on. . .

Nov 15, 2009 - 7:19 pm 61. moho:

Goy, as you might have been able to tell by now, I don’t care what the idiots here think of me, but you certainly seem to. Why else would you have gone back and edited your post to delete the section I just posted here. That’s insane and pathetic; certainly we both know that you did it. I don’t care what the others here think, you can deny it until your little pee pee tingles. I did say I don’t feel sorry for you, but even I have limits.

Nov 15, 2009 - 8:47 pm 62. goy:

@61. moho – … I don’t care what the idiots here think of me …

Sure. That’s why your pointless drivel is plastered all over the site. Color me unconvinced.

– Why else would you have gone back and edited your post to delete the section I just posted here.

Wow. Talk about raving lunatic delusions forced by your own incompetence! Clearly, you really do believe the crap you shovel!

Pay attention…

The stuff you copied, pasted, bolded and choked on is still all there exactly as you misquoted it – along with the stuff you omitted which, par for you, is what actually gave it meaning. Anyone can verify this for themselves.

Here’s the funny part…

Now that you’re half sober, you apparently can’t recognize that ‘quote’ because you did such a pathetic hack job on it when you originally copyied and pasted it in a drunken stupor: that last bolded section you’re now lying about is from a completely different article, dipsh!t. LOL!!!

Not only can’t you think or write for yourself, you can’t even copy SOMEONE ELSE’S thoughts accurately!!! ROTFLMAO!!

What’s funnier still is that the second bit you bolded completely discredits your stupid assertions about my support of Bush. That is, it’s an indictment of the MSM in the context of actions taken by Tony Blair after the islamist terrorist bombings in London, not a defense of GWB “in every way, shape and form”.

Nice work, nimrod. You’ve beclowned yourself. Again. Heh.

Try drinking less, thinking more.

Nov 16, 2009 - 7:18 am 63. Delia:

“Try drinking less, thinking more.”

So that’s why trollmo is no longer considered a ‘practicing’ Muslim.

I think our resident 12-stepping, wagon wobbler just got pwned by his own petard.

Nov 16, 2009 - 10:26 am 64. goy:

@63. Delia: – … just got pwned by his own petard.

Don’t worry. I’m sure he’s off hunting for something he can copy and paste that will ‘prove’ how all his screw-ups, lies and vitriol are caused by someone else – like the PJM moderators editing his posts or something.

Nov 17, 2009 - 6:17 am 65. Tiffluvscappig:

IF more people would look at the issues; research the facts and realize what the actual proposals are that are being made by these Politicians more of the corruption would be fought. More bills would be voted down; this damn healthcare bill which 5 people will grab in between the two houses – and get the other horrible stuff slipped in – will ruin our nation. Group dr. visits sucks; and who wants Socialized healthcare – It Sucks. Think about it. the post office is almost bankrupt and it’s a government run program; this is a perfect example of how wrong the democrats are with this bill. It has got to be redesigned and adjusted to take the corruption out of it…The writer of this Article is the Kind of Man we need helping save and restructure this Nation.

Dec 4, 2009 - 9:29 pm