Is That an Anti-Aircraft Gun in Your Pocket?
Mexican authorities misrepresent the weapons they are confiscating from drug cartels.
But what about the other “anti-aircraft gun,” the Browning .50-caliber machine gun mounted behind a crude welded shield in the bed of a truck?
The gun is indeed .50-caliber and is obviously based on the M-2 Browning, but it isn’t a variant designed for an anti-aircraft role. Nor — according to the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agency (ATF) — is it a machine gun:
Mexican and U.S. authorities disagree on just what type of gun it was. Federal Police Coordinator Gen. Rodolfo Cruz maintains it was .50-caliber anti-air craft machine gun. ATF, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said it was an unmodified .50-caliber semiautomatic rifle made by TNW, a U.S. firearms manufacturer.
As it is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm’s (BATF) specialty to trace firearms and the serial number and other markings on U.S.-made firearms, let’s presume this organization is more likely to be correct than a Mexican police official.
TNW is TNW Firearms, Inc, a gun company with an interesting specialty: re-manufacturing WWII-era surplus machine gun parts into firearms that look like the originals but only fire as semi-automatic weapons. When cross-referencing the photo of the gun shown in the bed of the truck with the appropriate entry in the TNW product catalog, it becomes painfully obvious that while the gun did come from a U.S. manufacturer, it is not an anti-aircraft weapon or even a machine gun.
Interestingly enough, another re-manufactured semi-automatic firearm TNW builds is a 1919, which bears an uncanny resemblance to the first “anti-aircraft” gun mentioned that was also captured in the raid. It would not be all that surprising to discover that it is also a TNW-manufactured semi-auto. Neither TNW nor the BATF office in Phoenix would return calls or emails asking for more detail.
Mexican authorities are not fabricating the fact that weapons are flowing from the United States into Mexico, but they are exaggerating what kind of weapons they are recovering, either through ignorance or purposeful deception.
I’ll leave it to the reader to determine which is more likely.
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Bob Owens blogs at Confederate Yankee.
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48 Comments
1. Horace Wells:Good eye Bob, oh well, they all can’t be gun nuts like you!
Apr 22, 2009 - 11:41 pm 2. eon:Actually, either one of those, even in semiautomatic-only fire, would be dangerous to the sort of aircraft most likely to be used at low level by the authorities, namely helicopters. (To get the 1919A4 elevated enough to hit a low-flyer, you can prop the front leg of the tripod up on a treestump.)
But for that matter, ordinary rifle fire is a danger to most helicopters, simply due to the fact that unlike a fixed-wing aircraft, most of their dynamic components are not protected by the aircraft’s skin or any armor it might carry.
(Rotorhead, anti-torque tail rotor, etc.)
That said, if I were an officer tasked with aerial scouting of the cartels’ hideouts, etc., I’d be very displeased to know that there was a mounted weapon hidden somewhere down in the brush firing a round (.50 BMG)that can punch through an inch of homogenous steel armor at 1000 meters- and that it was protected from my (probably light rifle-caliber, i.e. 5.56mm)
return fire by its own gunshield. Even if it only fired in single-shot mode. If the gunner knows his business, he only has to hit my helo once.
clear ether
eon
Apr 23, 2009 - 4:10 am 3. Old Soldier:I laughed when I was those pictures. Did they raid a WWI museum?
Apr 23, 2009 - 4:29 am 4. anton:Check your stats eon, I am pretty sure the US 37mm anti tank gun wouldn’t punch 25mm of homogenous plate at 1000yrds, the .50 was far less powerful. Plus hitting a fast moving target with a heavy (60+lbs) single shot weapon is really tough. That said I have to agree that I would not want to be on the receiving end of that monster.
What I find really hilarious is the same Mexican Government that publishes the “How to sneak into the US illegally” comic book is ragging on us about the inability of THEIR border guards to stop THEIR citizens from bringing guns into THEIR country. Seems more than a little ironic.
Apr 23, 2009 - 6:31 am 5. G-man:The total ignorance of the main stream media about weapons is again on display.
Couldn’t the writer have called, i don’t know, a weapons expert and shown him the pictures and asked: “What are these guns? Are the police stating accurately what they can do?”
But no, a gun is a gun to the media, they are all bad!
Apr 23, 2009 - 6:40 am 6. e:2. eon:
Its more that an airplane can glide to the ground if it looses engine power and helicopters tend to drop faster. Auto-Gyrating the rotor can help bring it into the realm of survivable, but its no guarantee.
Well, Mexico has problems, and it makes it easier for the politicians if they can place blame elsewhere. So they have some choices, look inept by blaming it on local drug lords. Look weak by blaming it on a nearby weak country. Look daft by blaming it on some overseas entity. Or they can look like honest victims by blaming the Big Bad Wolf to the north.
Apr 23, 2009 - 6:51 am 7. urbanleftbehind:Well, it ocurred to me that this and others might be “potempkin” busts – maybe they are moving a traveling van worth of museum pieces just to show they are getting something for their efforts.
My money tells me the Globe doesnt give two spits about this if the cops and the crook weren’t young females (makes me wish that the two cops were unmasked and showing more skin, but I know that can be fatal down there). Pleasant diversion for the morning, though.
Apr 23, 2009 - 6:58 am 8. bvw:I seem to recollect a scene in some movie of recent years where a WWI machine gunner takes out a low flying biplane or two.
Fwiw — My grandfather won his sliver stars for taking out machine gun nests in that war.
Apr 23, 2009 - 7:32 am 9. The Grey Man:Maybe President Obama could issue a clarification: “That is not the anti-aircraft gun I knew”.
Apr 23, 2009 - 7:54 am 10. John Lien:Thanks Bob!
I too noticed that the machine gun was probably not an AA gun and I posted it in the comments in the Daily Mail article. It was curious that I was the first commenter on the daily mail article (should have tipped me off). Well, I soon found out that they weren’t displaying the comments (at least I can’t see them!)
Interesting. I wonder how many others did the same as I?
Apr 23, 2009 - 8:16 am 11. Farmer:bvw
Apr 23, 2009 - 8:31 am 12. Don51:The key word in your first sentence is MOVIE.
US Army doctrine FM 44-8, small arms fire against aerial platforms -
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/44-8/ch5.htm#s1p2
“Every weapon (M16, M60, M249, and M2) must be used to engage the target with the goal of placing as many bullets as possible in the enemy’s flight path.”
Apr 23, 2009 - 8:44 am 13. Peter the Bubblehead:8. bvw wrote:
I seem to recollect a scene in some movie of recent years where a WWI machine gunner takes out a low flying biplane or two.
11. Farmer wrote:
The key word in your first sentence is MOVIE.
Peter writes: I seem to recall it is historical fact that Baron Manfred von Richthofen, the infamous Red Baron, was shot down by a machine gunner on the ground.
Experts now generally agree that Richthofen was killed by someone on the ground. The wound through his body indicated that it had been caused by a bullet moving in an upward motion, from the right side, and more importantly, that it was probably received some time after Brown’s attack.
Apr 23, 2009 - 8:52 am 14. J.R.:A 2002 documentary produced by the Discovery Channel suggests that Gunner W. J. “Snowy” Evans, a Lewis machine gunner with the 53rd Battery, 14th Field Artillery Brigade, Royal Australian Artillery is likely to have killed von Richthofen.
In all fairness, you can’t tell if a .50 is semi or full auto just by looking at it from the front or side. You either have to fire it, or look at the back of the weapon. That round bar coming out of the back of the weapon (called the buffer tube sleeve) has a latch around it called the bolt latch release. When it is engaged it catches the bolt after every shot fired. When not engaged it allows the bolt to travel freely, placing the weapon in full auto mode where it normally is. I know this weapon well. Its the only one I ever had on my gun truck in Iraq. BTW there is no safety. We always jammed a shell behind the butterfly (trigger) so that if your hand slipped going over a bump you didn’t accidentially discharge the weapon.
As for the ranges, here’s what the Army has to say. The max range is 6,764 meters. Range against point targets in semi is 1,500 meters, and area targets is 1,830 meters. If you’re going to shoot out that far you have to have the T&E on the back of it so you can aim, otherwise it will walk all over. You can’t free gun it and expect to hit anything at that range.
As for the aircraft claim, the weapon could easily shoot down a low flying aircraft (I think I learned that in basic training). Although to call the weapon an anti-aircraft weapon is just a falsehood. It’s an infantry weapon designed to be lugged by grunts to kill ground targets. If you do plan to use it for anti-aircraft purposes you’d be better off doing what they did in WW2 and mount 4 of them together like this:
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_mg_m2_quad50.php
Apr 23, 2009 - 8:59 am 15. comatus:I’d hate to be in the neighborhood when you prop that tripod up on a tree stump. OTOH, a wagon wheel with its axle planted worked for Lewis gunners, provided the hub bearings were sound and the leather straps were tight. If the movies are right, Mexico’s full of those.
A bolt action .50 qualifies as an anti-tank rifle, and would play hell with police-weight vehicle armor in close action–buth then, so would a .375 H&H, or Rigby. I’ll bet the Mexican govt would like a grant of some MRAP’s and Bradleys to counter that. Your guess about how soon the cartels would own them! Maybe they really did need those steenking badges. Black Jack Pershing must be rolling in his grave.
FWIW, WWI and WWII advanced arms would make mincemeat of any American city today. I got to cogitate over that one Sunday afternoon as I piloted a B-17 over my office with the bomb-bay doors open. It made a cool sidebar to our “corporate security” meeting the next week. Pray for a local chapter of wacky re-enactors with loose certifications.
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:00 am 16. James S.:I am not a weapons buff, but that .50 cal seems poorly configured for anti-aircraft use. As aircraft would be above you wouldn’t you want your protection to be higher up? Maybe they simply are not worried about armed aircraft. How are you going to turn the gun towards the aircraft to track it? The I cannot see the pintle mount but that shield prevents it from swiveling in more than a 45 degree arc if it can swivel at all. That shield looks set to protect the operator’s body from ground fire. Somehow I think that vehicle is not meant to be used as anti-aircraft. I realize it could be dual purpose, but that vehicle is going to be in a world of suck if it actually gets attacked by an aircraft.
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:02 am 17. Rob:The headline was anti-aircraft machinegun. Apparently this was neither. The drive-by media does not care. Headlines, not facts are their game. Everyone wins here. The Mexican narco-terrorists gain a fearsome rep, Mexico blames it on the US. The big O, apologizes and blames the NRA. Napolitano points at the real terrorists as right-wing and the truth is left mangled and ignored. SOP.
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:21 am 18. bubblehead:This is all well and good, but we are digressing. The point of the article is the outright lying coming from the MSM with regard to what types of weapons the druggers are using. All the pictures I’ve seen show mostly AK47’s with a mish-mash of other dated weapons that are all available almost anywhere except the US, Canada and Western Europe. It’s the same sort of stuff used by insurgents (!) all over the world for the last 40 years. Yes, there’s some US stuff as well, but as has been well documented, only a small fraction of the few US arms seized have been purchased inside the US and transferred directly to Mexico. It’s another MSM lie.
If the druggers really needed AA weapons, the Mexican army would be more than happy to supply them US versions for the right price. Really, is there any doubt?
MSM = GIGO!
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:24 am 19. Rob:Another thought.
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:34 am 20. Brian:A heavier weapon welded in the back of a pickup truck is called a ‘technical’. These have been seen in Africa a lot, Chad and Somalia; semi-failed and failed states respectively. The interesting question here is what is it doing in Mexico, right next door.
The cure would seem to be simple. Call the Highway Patrol and have them make a traffic stop. “Ah sir, I think your tail light is out and that thing in back, can we see your permit??”
Mexico has a problem! Maybe we should focus on helping them instead of labeling our returning heroes as terrorists and blaming Canada.
J.R. and James S.:
I think you’re getting a bit confused. There are two weapons that were highlighted by Mexican authorities:
1) A M1919 (A4 by the look of it) .30 caliber machine gun.
2) A .50 caliber rifle of some sort.
There is no M2 .50 caliber machine gun in the pictures, as some people seem to be suggesting. The tripod-mounted machine gun is the M1919.
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:37 am 21. J Richardson:When I first read that article, I sent a long comment with citations to the Daily Mail. I recognized it immediately as the .30 cal M1919A4 with an infantry style tripod. I pointed this out to them and said it would need a different tripod or pintle to be used for anti-aircraft work. The comment was never published. Need I say more?
As to Obama making a correction, his response is going to be that he wasn’t even born when that gun was made.
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:49 am 22. anton:Most of the mags in the pictures appear to be AK mags. I am willing to bet that there are some countries south of Mexico that use those as standard infantry weapons (Chavez just bought an AK factory form Russia last year, didn’t he?). The world is awash in AKs and derivatives.
If you can smuggle TONS of dope I am sure you can get a gun from point A to point B without too much trouble. Venezuala to Mexico is probably easier than US to Mexico.
Mexico’s problem isn’t US guns, it is two centuries of corruption in all levels of government. If a US cops “lost” his gun he would face being fired, if a US soldier did the same things would be worse. In Mexico they seem to lose tons of stuff and nobody does anything about it. I wonder how many of the serial numbers came back to the Mexican Government as the owner. The issue is now the Narcos want to run things instead of just running drugs.
Funny, if we had finished that darned fence the Mexicans would be in a far better position to control the entry of undesirable illegals (firearms) into their country.
Another thing, why is OK for billions of US dollars to be sent to Mexico by illegals but a few guns (purchased legally here and not found by the ever-vigilant Mexican border authorities) are the end of the world?
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:59 am 23. Cecil Moon:This is business as usual for the media. They don’t have a clue about ordinance. A simple check with any of the 23,000,000 American men and women (aka–right wing extremists) who have, at the least, endured military basic training would straighten them out. But then, I forgot what grandpa said: “You can’t polish a turd.”
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:27 am 24. Rifle 308:One more technical point. Taking a close look at the M1919 picture on my computer screen I think, and could be wrong, but the rounds in the belt look like they are .308s and not 30.06s. I say this because the rounds look too short to be 30.06s. This suggests the machine gun, if it truely is a full automatic weapon, may have been one of those M1919s modified by Isreal or South Africa for use on their personnel carriers or fixed positions.
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:35 am 25. driver:My two cents anyway.
And oh yes, those mounts shown in the pictures are ground mounts for engaging ground targets.
J Richardson:
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:43 am 26. Fred Beloit:I also sent the Daily Mail a comment that the captured woman in the picture was probably smirking like that because the Federales and MSM were calling her .30 an anti-aircraft gun. Had totally forgotten about it till I saw this today, which made me check back. Not only are your comment and mine not there, there are NO comments at all. Interesting. Wonder if they’ve been scrubbing.
I ran a range at the old Ft. Ord for a while long ago. We used two ring-mounted 30 cals over the cabs of two deuce-and-a-half trucks to give student Army vehicle drivers training in anti-personnel and anti-aircraft use. The MG operator stood on the seat in the cab to fire. It was more a hope for something rather than nothing to use against the aircraft of the day. We also trained them in the use of the 3.5-in rocket launcher for anti-tank defense…another hope versus experience deal.
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:50 am 27. blackjack:Clarification:
90% of the guns that can be traced are coming from the US into Mex… however, per the recent broadcast on Fox News, these guns make up less than approximately 20% of the total…
The other 80% are not traceable…
The gun control folks tend to omit this information…
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:56 am 28. J.R.:Sorry Brian, but you’re the confused one. The weapon in the picture behind the shield is an M2 .50. Look at this picture of the weapon:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/093Ldphg1ufS1?q=mexico+gun
Now look at this picture of my M2 mounted on my humvee in Iraq:
http://www.jrsalzman.com/media/iraq/guntruck1.jpg
Its the same weapon. I don’t care if its been modified to fire only semi-auto or not, its still an M2. This is not a “rifle of some sort” as you suggest. The thing is over 65 inches long and weighs 84 pounds! How could it possibly be a shoulder fired rifle? It is impossible to use without mounting it to a tripod or some sort of secured mount. I am not arguing that this is not an anti-aircraft weapon. Its not, not by a long shot. But it is an M2, .50, not a “rifle”.
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:29 am 29. Dana Lotzgesell:Dear Mr. Owens,
Though I usually agree with most of what I see/read on PJ Media, I have to point out in this case that the gun in question is really a .50 cal, not a 30-06. They have the same outline, but the .50 is 2/3 bigger. And, unfortunately, the .50 has been often used as a an AA or AAA round.
Sincerely, Dana
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:36 am 30. Tom:22: anton
Actually in regard to the cop losing his side arm.
Yes, usually it ends the way you said. The cop being fired.
Unless he knows B. Obama…then he gets appointed to a cabinet position as Drug Enforcement.
I forget his name, but he went shopping in December of 2004 with his wife while on duty. Leaving his side arm in the car……it hasn’t been found yet.
*hypnotic hand waving*
you will not question the government….Obama agrees that the USA is bad…..he will make all things better…..according to Obame
*end of hypnotic hand thing*
Ya feel better yet??
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:39 am 31. Old Soldier:*G*
blackjack: You are correct. What is missing is the origin of the American sourced arms. Did they come through civilian gun store sales, or, direct sales to Mexican military and/or police agencies? The ATF has not answered this question although it would be very easy for them to determine.
So, are civilian guns really being smuggled across the border, or are cops and soldier selling the contents of their arms lockers to drug gangs? Our government knows but isn’t saying.
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:39 am 32. Peter the Bubblehead:23. Cecil Moon wrote:
But then, I forgot what grandpa said: “You can’t polish a turd.”
Peter writes: In point of fact, Mythbusters proved you actually can. It’s pretty disgusting and it takes a long time, but…
Apr 23, 2009 - 12:25 pm 33. Knucklehead:I could well be mistaken but I do not believe that the belt(s) of ammunition draped over the “crudely build” armor shield of that BMG (or replica/variant) is .50 cal BMG ammo. Looks like medium, rather than heavy, machine gun ammor to me and probably not even NATO.
Apr 23, 2009 - 1:46 pm 34. Alcibiades:Dana Lotzgesell:
Unfortunately, .30 caliber machine guns have also shot down numerous planes.
Apr 23, 2009 - 1:51 pm 35. AGB:political junkie, fan of document embedding on websites and document file sharing.
Apr 23, 2009 - 2:09 pm 36. AGB:anti-aircraft gun or not, Mexican authorities have to step it up against gang violence. How about creating more jobs so that people have less of a reason to join a gang in the first place?
The answer to illegal immigration to the US from Mexico begins and end in Mexico – secure the border and give people a reason to stay.
Bob, good detailed reporting and analysis.
Apr 23, 2009 - 2:14 pm 37. Federale:Well, those photos certainly look like a .50, even if a semi-auto only version, still a threat. But remember, the 1919A4, even if also a semi-auto version, is still an effective weapon. I think this particular article did nothing for the real issue, which is the administration lies about the 90% figure.
Apr 23, 2009 - 3:08 pm 38. EdGi:I was an AD offier familiar with the FM55-various series; an AD weapon is defined by the sights or electronic control, any weapon can br AD and any can be ground engagement. Aircraft have been both shot down by various ground weapons by luck and missed by AD weapons in bad engagements. The key in this is that neither our agencies, Mexican agencies nor our media is being professionally accurate, scapegoating us and covering up for whom the know the real crimminals are. Bob, keep pounding them until they give up the coverup of the real sources.
Apr 23, 2009 - 4:44 pm 39. EdGi:Oooppz, I meant FM44 series.
Apr 23, 2009 - 5:08 pm 40. Fûz:I commented at the original Daily Mail article, asking which one of the weapons was AA. There were no other commenters before me.
I submitted the comment and was told that my comment would be cleared before appearing under the article.
12 hours later the comment was not vetted and never appeared. In fact, there are still zero comments under the article.
Apr 23, 2009 - 6:39 pm 41. Brian:J.R.
Roger. That picture you linked is an M2. I know them. I “owned” a number of them as my Navy unit’s weapons and ATFP officer in the Middle East. I was going by the pictures in the Daily Mail article that Bob Owens linked to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1170064/Whats-nice-girl-like-doing-arsenal-like-Police-seize-20-year-old-guarding-vast-weapons-cache–including-anti-aircraft-gun.html
The wide shot of the table shows a 1919 and some kind of .50 cal rifle. I hadn’t seen the M2 pic before.
Apr 23, 2009 - 6:43 pm 42. tomhynes:That makes at least three of us that tried to comment on the daily mail article giving the correct name of the gun.
The backstory to the rebuilt 1919s is pretty cool. We sold a bunch to Israel when we upgraded to the M60 machine gun. Israel then upgraded, dimilitarized the 1919a4, and importers bought the parts kits. Until recently, the kits were < $400. You built a receiver, which was really just a flat piece of steel – the right side plate. Then you assembled your own, personally built, 30 caliber belt fed weapon. http://www.1919a4.com explains it.
Apr 23, 2009 - 7:17 pm 43. Fred Beloit:Air-cooled 30 cal:
Apr 24, 2009 - 7:40 am 44. Fred Beloit:http://www.legaleagleproductions.com/images/uploaded/M1919A4%20.30%20Caliber%20Air%20Cooled%20Machine%20Gun.jpg
50 cal:
Apr 24, 2009 - 7:48 am 45. supercars:http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/M2.html
whoa! such a destructive gun. it can destroy the vehicle for a second?
Apr 26, 2009 - 1:14 am 46. eon:#4 Anton;
Look up “Saboted Light Armor Piercing 12.7×99mm”. Even standard 850 grain semi-armor piercing is defined as dangerous to soft-skinned vehicles (defined as anything with less than 20mm armor) out to 1500 meters. SLAP rounds can punch through both sides of most MICVs out to 1000.
And few light aircraft of the type used by police carry any armor at all.
cheers
eon
Apr 26, 2009 - 3:44 am 47. njcommuter:Autorotation works if the engine goes out but you still have control. If the key hydraulic parts or mechanical linkages are hit, you don’t have that control. You have a helicopter crashing to the ground.
Apr 26, 2009 - 6:25 pm 48. driver:“The answer to illegal immigration to the US from Mexico begins and end in Mexico – secure the border and give people a reason to stay.”
Well, we supposedly hire Mexicans to do all sorts of jobs Americans won’t do, why not hire a whole bunch of them to do this one? I will personally drive up to Home Depot and pick up the first cadre of Border Control operatives. And pay for their lunches. We can probably even pay them with cash, newly printed, from the Geithner Treasury Department.
May 4, 2009 - 11:47 am