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Is the Justice Department Serious About Torture Trials?
The risk that prosecution of Bush-era officials would devour the Democrats is great.
In an effort to make Clinton’s confederate in the corrupt pardon of Mark Rich look like an independent agent, Newsweek published an Eric Holder fluff piece suggesting that despite the president’s desire to let the issue die, the hard hitting free agent attorney general might seek to prosecute those who engaged in or permitted torture of captured terrorists under the Bush administration.
Holder, 58, may be on the verge of asserting his independence in a profound way. Four knowledgeable sources tell Newsweek that he is now leaning toward appointing a prosecutor to investigate the Bush administration’s brutal interrogation practices, something the president has been reluctant to do. While no final decision has been made, an announcement could come in a matter of weeks, say these sources, who decline to be identified discussing a sensitive law-enforcement matter. Such a decision would roil the country, would likely plunge Washington into a new round of partisan warfare, and could even imperil Obama’s domestic priorities, including health care and energy reform. Holder knows all this, and he has been wrestling with the question for months. “I hope that whatever decision I make would not have a negative impact on the president’s agenda,” he says. “But that can’t be a part of my decision.”
Tom Maguire believes the president’s agenda is on life support, and this would be like removing the IV tubes. He urges the administration to “bring it on.”
Like many of the shrewder online commentators, Maguire believes this hint of prosecution is not terribly serious but is instead being floated to keep alive the waning ardor of the far left. After all, they rallied to the Obama banner because he took positions on defense matters far to the left of Hillary Clinton, only to see over and over again that — once handed the reins of power and the responsibilities that go with it — Obama found himself compelled to continue the policies he had so viciously attacked with their fervent support just months ago.
In any event, it is hard to believe that a public, already showing signs of displeasure at the failing and overreaching moves of the president relating to economic matters, would really be distracted by show trials. Such trials can only remind them of what Bush’s successful pursuit of the terrorists let them forget: The prior administration did everything it could with a dreadfully inadequate bureaucracy to prevent further attacks on U.S. soil. And it succeeded in that effort despite the Democratic Party’s unending efforts to weaken our defenses.
There is a hint that Holder does not have forever to decide whether to proceed. The ACLU, a prime mover in the effort to prosecute former Bush administration officials (and even further gut our intelligence gathering efforts), noted some time ago that the statute of limitations on such a prosecution would run out in spring of 2010. Given the amount of time it would take to gear up a proper investigation, it does seem to be now or never:
There is Only a Little More than a Year Left in the Statute of Limitations Period for Certain Alleged Crimes of Torture. The federal statutes of limitation are a potential problem in investigating and prosecuting certain torture crimes. Although the general federal statute of limitation for most federal crimes is five years, there is no limitations period when death resulted from the crime, and there is an eight-year period for violations of the federal Anti-Torture Act. The ICRC report and the Justice Department Inspector General report on the FBI’s role in interrogations both provide substantial details on the torture and abuse of Abu Zubaydah in the spring and summer of 2002, prior to the issuance of the August 1, 2002 OLC opinions. The eight-year statute of limitation period for Anti-Torture Act charges related to crimes allegedly committed in spring 2002 will expire in spring 2010. As a result, a prosecutor has only a little more than a year from today to bring charges for some important and well-documented alleged torture or abuse incidents.
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Clarice Feldman is a retired litigation lawyer who lives in D.C. She's a news junkie addicted to the internet.
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75 Comments
1. Juvenal:It would be interesting to quantify, if such a thing were possible, how many people are actually fooled by Newsweek’s blatantly fictional portrayal of Holder as an independent agent with his first loyalty to the law.
I’ve seen predictions that Pelosi, Conyers, et.al, would be caught up in their own political dragnets regarding supposed Bush “torture,” “domestic surveillance,” etc., etc. I’m not very hopeful that such a delightful turn of events would ever take place. The press won’t examine the records of the likes of Pelosi or Schumer and point out that they encouraged the very same things which they now insist be investigated as “criminal acts.”
Jul 14, 2009 - 3:44 am 2. sodacrackers:This is disgraceful behavior. And I don’t believe for a minute that Obama is not all in favor of it. This is their way of trying to keep our minds off their agenda.
Jul 14, 2009 - 4:07 am 3. David Thomson:The Democrats are about to make a huge blunder. This idiocy will cost them greatly. The American people are focussed on the economy! They are worried sick about pocketbook issues. May god help any politician and political party which wastes time on such partisan madness. It is very safe to predict that the Democrats will see their poll numbers drop like a rock. Have they already forgotten “It’s the economy, Stupid”?
Jul 14, 2009 - 4:46 am 4. fear Obama:This is great-
Valerie blame Plame Wilson (cia) deja veau all over again.
Start with Cheney he is angry and looks like he might shoot someone on purpose.
And while you go at it millions of us looking for jobs will be watching and extremely pumped for the 2010 mid term congress and senate elections.
Several of your congressmen and senators will be able to watch the final investigations at home-
unemployed.
Jul 14, 2009 - 4:47 am 5. WestWright:LMAO, it appears that the Rats are putting out the traps that will catch themselves…Obama should have just continued with his whining that IT IS BUSH’e FAULT and waited till adter his 1st term to impose his Uhhtopia on the US. Looks like God still loves us!
Jul 14, 2009 - 5:01 am 6. Paul -Indiana:Since Obama has said previously that there would be no such trials, does Obama work for Holder or is it the other way around? Or is it simply that Obama lied?
Jul 14, 2009 - 5:48 am 7. "progressive"watch:If Holder is stupid and small-minded enought to go the route of prosecutions,the Obama revolution will indeed eat its own. The Obamanistas will in the end be snared in their own snare. Members of the Obama adminstration have often broken their oaths of office already. They have morally and probably legally several times committed treason. They will set the presedent for prosecution and there will be plenty of cause to prosecute them.
Jul 14, 2009 - 6:25 am 8. soupcon:I think you mean Marc Rich, not Frank Rich
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:01 am 9. glenn:I’d like to think Obama and his people are going to paint themselves into a corner on this one but the media is with ‘em and on this issue with ‘em to the bitter end.
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:11 am 10. Steve:The democrats should be very afraid of losing their majority status and having republicans ready to burn them all, and I am sure there is plenty of stuff to charge them with. If the republicans get a majority in the 2010 they should be every bit as vengeful as the democrats have been towards them.
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:17 am 11. Meryl:For some reason, the democrat party reminds of the 2 year old building up to a red-faced, screaming tantrum.
The only problem for the child is that he is being held firmly under the arms, about 3 feet off the ground, by his Dad (the thinking public), so the net effect is simply a screaming child, arms and legs flailing.
That doesn’t mean he couldn’t cause some damage, but at the moment he’s just looking stupid and out of control.
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:27 am 12. RE:I’m sure Obama’s DOJ is far more interested in pursuing the Bush/Cheney witch hunt than they are with prosecuting blatant voter intimidation.
The Democrats wear their integrity on their sleeve.
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:35 am 13. JED:Whereas the potential Truth Commissions are looking to revise history, they appear to have the potential of the Stalin style purges. We may soon be priviledged to witness jack-booted liberalism at its most revealing. Anybody want to buy a platitude?
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:36 am 14. Bear:Teflon man wants Holder to do this (with zero accountability for it)…one shouldn’t assume they know how this will play out…there is a large following of Bush Cheney haters out there.
and this distraction may be to a purpose.
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:08 am 15. maak:11. Meryl: 11. “For some reason, the democrat party reminds of the 2 year old building up to a red-faced, screaming tantrum.”
They are still very angry about Clinton/Lewinsky, IRAQ war, and Bush “stealing” the election. They just may be both confident and arrogant enough to go forward with prosecutions. Hopefully, with the majority of the public now focused on the economy, they will make jackasses out of themselves. (No offense intended to jackasses).
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:09 am 16. Sebastian Shaw:President Obama is trying to find an object of hatred to distract the public from socialized health care, cap & trade, card check, etc al, but it is not working; the public is focused on the economy. If Eric Holder goes though with this plan, this too will backfire on President Obama & the other Democrats. The CIA will not allow themselves to be slandered by politicians trying to save their backsides.
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:25 am 17. johnt:The march of stupidity continues, the Dems can’t help themselves, they’re so used to the cover they get from the media.
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:27 am 18. gram:They want also to investigate a secret assassination program that was reported on by the NY Times in 2002, hellluva secret.
The really funny lie the media is running with is that Holder, a pimp, is considering investigations that his boss, Hussien Obama is against. Like one phone call from Hussien wouldn’t stop it. People believe this crap !!
any of our elected officials that would back such a thing should be voted out of office.
It’s like we have a third world banana republic going here.
it’s important to let them all know this..call, write, email..
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:32 am 19. savage24:There are plenty of democrats to prosecute, but as we know, the Justice Department is so far to the left it will never happen. It doesn’t matter which party is in power, the career lawyers still run the show. One example is ex congressman Jefferson, it’s taken four years just to bring him to trial. And it don’t look like they are pushing this too diligently.
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:36 am 20. clarice:SOUPCON–You are so RIGHT–BLUSHING.
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:39 am 21. gracie:The Republicans are whimps.
They need their own James Carville. Just throw it out there…who cares if it’s the truth, by the time the Republicans have muddled through and say something, you have been convicted in the press and everyone’s on to something else.
FGS!!! Republicans, grow some!! quit rolling over. These posts are nice to vent on, but who besides us cares??? No Republican leaders that I see. Gotta be p.c., at all costs, refined, whimps.. Hey, I do like Gingrich. newt Gingrich Carville..it could work..
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:43 am 22. Brian Richard Allen:“” …. I’ll ask the “Democrats” to be mature leaders, not vindictive brats …. “”
And that’ll happen when there’s an ice-storm raging in Hell.
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:44 am 23. davod:They will hold this over Republican’s heads as a threat. This will come out every time they needs some Rpublicans to vote their way. And some fool Republican Senator will vote their way. And the threat will come out again.
Jul 14, 2009 - 9:17 am 24. Middleman:I can’t see this actually will happen. There is enough polarization going on and I’m sure the administration knows this.
Jul 14, 2009 - 9:26 am 25. Bear:Holder must have received a plate of pot brownies from the Code Pink girls.
23:Davod
Maybe…but my concern is that O is more shrewd than we give him credit for. Or a particular handler is.
one thing is certain, all this focus on the CIA limits their future effectiveness. Why would he do that now?
Jul 14, 2009 - 10:06 am 26. KZ:Nothing new here.
It is ever the instinct of the dictator to criminalize the political opposition.
Jul 14, 2009 - 10:26 am 27. AThinkingPerson:I say bring it on. Let the democrats elevate Bush/Cheney to the level of persecuted heroes.
This will truly show how low Pelosi and Obama are willing to sink for personal gain (as if we needed proof).
Jul 14, 2009 - 10:31 am 28. Ramp Rat:Before the current Attorneys General sticks his foot up-his proverbial hind quarters, perhaps he should entertain the current speaker to lunch. Check with her about her current feelings toward say for example the CIA or Mr. Panette. Its just amazing how we can keep electing so many small minded puppets, and as for the puppet master, well don’t get me started. The entire so called “political Class” ought to check their collective “6’s” daily.
Jul 14, 2009 - 10:43 am 29. Kipling:Three thoughts on what might motivate this speculation from Holder:
First, it is a heavy-handed and rather clumsy threat to Dick Cheney. He has made Mr. Obama look foolish on these issues before and it is now pay back time.
Second, if Mr. Obama’s agenda is really on life support, perhaps Mr. Obama would prefer to kill it with these show trials so that he can shift the blame to others rather than accept it himself.
Third, the only way Holder would act against the wishes of Mr. Obama is if he was in league with the Clintons or someone else and could expect their support at some point. Otherwise, Holder is to big of a candy to act alone because he thought it was right.
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:08 am 30. Abi:This will be a smoke screen, nothing more. Plus, it will have the full backing of Obama and his handlers. those people would not do these things without his approval, either public or private.
a smoke screen to divert our attention.
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:10 am 31. flipside:Do you recall during one of the Democrat debates, a hypothetical situation was presented ” what would you do if
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:12 am 32. davod:the US was attacked again”. Hillary said that she would retaliate. Obambi said he would make dam sure that rescue
workers were using the same radio frequencies. Look it up. That’s our leader folks.
someone more savvy than I needs gather the conflicting statements of the Schumer’s of the world and run them on Youtube.
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:23 am 33. seven:Holder is a wuss. Rahm thinks if they stir up some more Bush hate, which is how they got voted in, the ratings for Obama will go up some more. Obama is driving his own ratings down. If he doesn’t get a couple of 3-4 bills slammed thru, his chances are over.
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:34 am 34. Left Coast Mike:I agree this ploy is to take the attention away from the “government controlled health plan” now in the House.
Wake up America this is a dangerous administration trying to control every aspect of you lives.
I would hope the Democrats would be devoured. The sooner the better for America.
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:48 am 35. Mike W.:The overwhelming evidence of the use of illegal torture before congress was briefed, and of Cheney ordering the CIA to lie to congress, really is a slam dunk case if the Obama administration wants to pursue it. The evidence of crimes authorized by Bush and Cheney are an Ace in the hole that Obama knows he has over the Republican party, and he will use it throughout his 8-year presidency as a hammer over the heads of the GOP to compel them to vote with him on key legislation.
Lest any of you forget, a very small number of Americans now identify as Republicans, and the approval ratings for Bush and Cheney continue to be dismal. Should Holder authorize investigations, it will not have the polarizing effect that the GOP claims. Thought there will always be a small, rabid minority of right-wingers who will support Bush and Cheney regardless of their behavior, once the evidence is on the table, mainstream Americans will be mortified by what was done in our name under the Bush administration and will wish for fast prosecutions and verdicts so that we’ll be able to put this shocking and terrible chapter of our history behind us as quickly as possible. After being treated to photos, video and documents revealing the horrifying crimes that were authorized by the previous administation, investigations will not be seen by mainstream Americans as destructive, but rather as cathartic. Obama understands this, will successfully be able to use the threat of investigations and prosecutions, and the subsequent tarnishing of the GOP, as his Ace.
And the GOP will fall in line to avoid being tarred and feathered.
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:59 am 36. Marc Malone:This is merely a pushback against the CIA. Pelosi stuck her foot in it when she accused the CIA of lying to Congress. Paneta was objected to heavily by the Pubs, because of his complete lack of credentials, but he IS standing up for the CIA. The administration is trying to protect Pelosi and bring Paneta to heel, but it is all so amateurish. This is just bluster. It’ll go nowhere.
Jul 14, 2009 - 12:23 pm 37. Ellen K:Given the smoke and mirrors agenda of this administration, I would expect any inquiry to come about the same time as very bad economic numbers are due to be announced. Have you ever noticed that while he’s pushing cap and trade, he’s publicly touting healthcare and while he’s touting healthcare, he’s out of the nation. Now you see it,now you don’t, just like your paycheck.
Jul 14, 2009 - 12:30 pm 38. Class Clown:You know, beneath all the bluster, it all comes down to one thing for me. The Democratic Party always places politics over national security.
If I ever had the sense that any of these folks actually took the threats seriously, I would be willing to listen to arguments about what Bush did or did not do. In the face of real threats from people who literally want to kill us, too many Democrats would rather fight Bush/Cheney.
Jul 14, 2009 - 12:50 pm 39. atlargeinohio:#35 Mike W.
Are you serious? Are you really freakin’ serious? Only about 20% of the population view themselves as liberal, Obama was elected by a few percentage points, 51 million or so said NO to him in the election and many more would today were it held again. And what are the “horrifying crimes” they authorized? Flying civilian planes into buildings occupied by noncombatants? No, I think that was someone else,sir. I think a little less kool-aid from hyperbole-land would be good for you. And I sorta liked the behavior of Bush and Cheney- you know, protecting us from terror attacks on US soil for eight years, managing the economy well -yes I said it(the housing bubble was not their fault, the Repubs tried to head it off). I think that once the real facts come out over time, you will see that things you have been getting fed feces in the guise of steak by the mainstream media and lefty bloggers.
Jul 14, 2009 - 1:19 pm 40. wGraves:If you lived through LBJ and Carter, then you may remember what happens when you trust the Dems to prosecute a war. If it weren’t for the fact that my boys will probably be drafted to save us all, it would be hilarious.(Hillaryous?).
Jul 14, 2009 - 2:29 pm 41. Kipling:Mike W. I don’t know what you’re smoking or what alternative universe you live in but you need to check the facts and face reality. First, while the GOP brand may have trouble, people overwhelmingly identify with conservatism, way more than identify themselves as a liberal. Second, how in the world do you have access to evidence that torture occured before Congessional briefings and that Cheney ordered the CIA to lie to Congress. Third, if this does go to trial, then everything is fair game and Cheney can subpoena documents and Democrats alike. How do you think Pelosi or Reid would like to be under oath about what they knew in an election year? It would also give Cheney a chance to prove his contention that waterboarding worked and prevented future attacks by revealing the information gleaned from it. Fourth, Mr. Obama’s ability to extort the GOP has not really worked so far so why should we suspect it in the future.
Jul 14, 2009 - 2:47 pm 42. AThinkingPerson:Mike W. is proof that the liberal moonbats have lost touch with reality and are reduced to getting their “facts” from George W. Obama’s YouTube videos.
Jul 14, 2009 - 3:01 pm 43. AThinkingPerson:I am a diehard Republican and I say to Pelosi, Reid and Obama….Bring on the truth commission! I can’t wait to see them die by their own swords!
Jul 14, 2009 - 3:03 pm 44. Lynn B.:Y’all need to be quiet and not give advice. Just go along with the madcap funnsters in Congress. Liz Cheney is thinking about political office. That will drive the left nuts. Palin wrote a great piece in WaPo about Crap n’ Tax. Listen to the left howling over that. All the rest will be fun to watch as the heads roll. Can anyone list all the Czars and, how many are there now?
Jul 14, 2009 - 3:16 pm 45. clarice:Don’t forget that as a Clinton cabinet member Panetta was fully briefed on the renditions and Holder approved them, he admitted to that in his confirmation hearing.
Jul 14, 2009 - 3:32 pm 46. Meryl:Carville is a Nut.
Rahm is a Ballerina.
Col. obama is a Thug.
And all the women are ugly.
It’s a banana republic soap opera. Without commercials.
Jul 14, 2009 - 4:11 pm 47. Patrick of Atlantis:I think they are as serious as a Stalinist Purge.
Jul 14, 2009 - 4:12 pm 48. seven:There is a lot of rep[ressed anger. The more they crumble, they angrier they become. Clinton however was known for distractions. Holder is old school nasty like rahm E-manual.
Jul 14, 2009 - 5:59 pm 49. vcb:holder, schumer, pelosi, durbin: go for it! smart/dumb arses.!
Jul 14, 2009 - 6:51 pm 50. AThinkingPerson:#46 Meryl: Amen!
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:25 pm 51. Jones:Since Obama has said previously that there would be no such trials, does Obama work for Holder or is it the other way around? Or is it simply that Obama lied?
Neither. Behind the scenes, Obama wants show trials of Bush officials. Publicly, he will denounce them, appearing to take the high road. His propaganda machine- sorry, the press- will provide cover.
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:41 pm 52. Pat J:If Holder calls for investigation you’re going to see Republicans behave like rats leaving a sinking ship. You’ll see people turn on each other. They’ll testify and throw people under the bus in order to escape a similar fate. I just hope I get to see Karl Rove do a perp rock. That would be sweet.
Jul 14, 2009 - 7:44 pm 53. Marc:Umm, What does the CIA do for a living? Just curious. I think that Pelose is really stupid. You don’t want the best intel people on your wrong side.
If I was a CIA operative, I would be saying, “Hey Boss, can I dig up her dirt? Please, please, please ??”. There is a lot of dirt in her past. It would be gratifying to see some of that come to light. Go CIA!
Jul 14, 2009 - 8:01 pm 54. Donna V.:It would be interesting to quantify, if such a thing were possible, how many people are actually fooled by Newsweek’s blatantly fictional portrayal of Holder as an independent agent with his first loyalty to the law.
Oh, I’m sure the fossils who still subscribe to Newsweek totally believe it.
All 7 of them.
Jul 14, 2009 - 9:31 pm 55. Typos_R_Us:This is what they call a ‘trial balloon’. If it looks like they have more to gain them lose, they will.
Jul 14, 2009 - 10:20 pm 56. usafirst:I think the loss column is much longer then the win column, but I’m not a liberal. I’m rational and doing something that hurts just because it ‘feels’ good isn’t my thing.
The Left wants SOMEBODY from the Bush Administration to do the perp walk. Like the French mobs surrounding a guillotine, the far left wants blood. They don’t really care whose.
They can’t use smear tactics against the former Bush Administration because they are private citizens now and can sue. As the HuffyPo is finding out.
The Bush administration committed no crimes. They did nothing excessive or anything that hasn’t been done before by other Presidents of both parties. FDR locked up a few hundred thousand American citizens without charging them with a crime. Just because they Japanese. The USSC said he did nothing wrong.
Lincoln hanged war protesters and the USSC whined about it but in the end did nothing.
And then there is Wilson, who was a silent partner to rounding up and shooting thousands of Germans.
No, the Bush Administration was pretty low key by the standards of history.
Torture is illegal, immoral, and without a doubt a war crime. If it was ordered and perpetrated, it should be investigated and prosecuted. Regardless of party affiliation or level of rank, the accused should be afforded their day in court, and if proven guilty, punished accordingly. Period.
If, however, there is not enough evidence to pursue, the issue should be put to rest and the accused exonerrated.
The argument of whether it was effective or not (always a matter of opinion really) is not valid whatsoever. The argument is whether a crime was commited or not. I see no reason why anyone would want to cover it up (except the guilty) based upon party affiliation. The standard of the law should be above partisan politics. One would think that some things are more important.
I find it disturbing that so-called Christian conservative who consider themselves ‘pro-life’ etc. would condone torture. I am sure their saviour, Jesus, would not approve. Does partisan politics even rise above your core religious beliefs? Kinda strange, dontcha think?
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:24 pm 57. Realist:Dont forget that all the time the ‘libtards’ distract your attention the CLOCK is still ticking. Even if you got rid of Obambi now the damage has been done already is immense and the USA will take years to recover. If indeed it ever can as the number of gullible, hysterical, emotional and RACIST Obambi lovers, exemplified by the idiots such as ‘vivo’ ’sheesh’ ‘MikeW’ and ‘The Stranger’ who post on here, is still too high for sanity to return anytime soon.
Watch the clock ticking America it is counting out your doom.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Jul 15, 2009 - 12:32 am 58. Typos_R_Us:“Torture is illegal, immoral, and without a doubt a war crime. If it was ordered and perpetrated, it should be investigated and prosecuted. Regardless of party affiliation or level of rank, the accused should be afforded their day in court, and if proven guilty, punished accordingly. Period.”
I once was this naive and foolish.
First, what is torture? You might consider waterboarding (simulated drowning) torture. I consider being forced to watch Rosanne re-runs to be torture. My opinion os just as valid as yours.
I pretty much agree with the rest of your statement.
That does bring up another issue.
Treason. Treason is better defined then torture. Treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Is preventing the interrogation of the enemy giving them aid and comfort? IMHO it is. So if any of the former administration’s officials are put on trial for ordering torture, all those that orderd them tried should go on trial dfor treason. Using your own “logic” (sneer quotes) of course.
You see why the Demonrats have to be very careful here.
Considering that most of the assault against America is done thru propaganda, it could be argued the MSM is being treasonous.
1st amendment right s DO NOT cover treason.
Realist, we will always recover. Always. There was nothing here except a few stone age savages when the Mayflower dropped anchor. We built this place from the ground up and can do it again. As a famous columnist once pointed out, you could trade Americans for Africans and in 2 generations, Africa would look like America and America would look like Africa. It’s the people that count. Educated, hardworking citizens produce first world civilizations. Lazy ignorant civilizations produce 3rd world civilizations.
Jul 15, 2009 - 5:43 am 59. Bear:Typos_R_us. Everything you said…I concur except maybe the stone-age comment (by implication). Evidenced by the Iroquois Nation among others.
I still believe this is a manufactured distraction, not to win but to take opposition’s eye off the ball, but to what end? It may have nothing to do with the bills on the table, but more about rule of law and the constitution…and the front man may be just that.
Jul 15, 2009 - 7:49 am 60. Kipling:To usafirst: I agree with your position. However, the Bush/Cheney administration did not commit torture and if the whole record is accurately revealed then I think their positions and actions will be clear. The problem is that Holder and Mr. Obama will never allow that to happen. As they did with the so called torture memos on waterboarding, they will only selectively allow access to the records. They make accusations they cannot support and then try to redefine the terms of the debate. I don’t mind an honest debate because the conservative postion will win but a show trial is another thing. If we are going to have trials then they must be fair trials and the evidence must lead wherever it leads. The Democrats can not allow this because it will lead back to them.
Jul 15, 2009 - 8:21 am 61. annie:when Bo leaves office, we can try him for treason..or flat out stupppppidity..Yes???
I’m all for torture if it will help my country, in any way…
What??? you think the enemy says “that nice america, I want to cause them no trouble, they are so good”..hahhahaa Wait until the next attack on our soil and there will be a change of mind.
The left is angry because Bush’s winning thwarted their socialistic plans and they had to take a detour..now the jerks who tried to defend our country are gonna pay!
Jul 15, 2009 - 10:46 am 62. usafirst:Typos r us:
Treason includes the outing of an active cia agent as in Valerie Plame. I am sure the Republicans don’t want to go there.
Kipling:
If is leads back to the Dems, so be it. My whole point was that the issue itself is bigger than partisan politics. If the law was broken, and those with power in the administration (ie Cheney) ordered torture, than he should pay the price. If it falls back on whoever, then let it fall. The whole thing was a disgrace to our country.
Jul 15, 2009 - 7:35 pm 63. Tri Geek:While they are at it they should investigate Halliburton, the illegal wiretapping issue, etc.
This is not about political parties, it’s about standards and the law. How do you think Obama is going to see his options if there is no payback or consequences for anything the previous administration did? I guess either side can just do whatever they please, the knife cuts both ways.
Until the past administration is called to task for their errors, the current and future administrations have no reason to fear retribution for their actions. And until even the right-wing conservative Republicans own up and demand more of their own, they have no credibility in demanding it of their opposition.
Question: Your country is attacked and 3000 innocent lives are taken. War is declared. What should our response be?
1) Run to the UN and ask them to protect us?
2) Pretend it didn’t happen and call for another intern?
3) Find out who did it and go after them, trying to either capture or kill them?
The answer is #3. So why are these clowns making such a big deal out of this? There is nothing illegal about this. What did we do when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor? We went after them with everything we had, trying to capture or kill them. What is the differnce?
Jul 15, 2009 - 7:35 pm 64. usafirst:The difference is torture. We also executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding our soldiers during WWII. At the Neuremburg trials we found guilty many Germans who were charged with torture as well. “We were only following orders” did not cut it as a defense.
BTW: Bush did NOT go after them with everything we had. Instead he invaded Iraq, the one country where we knew they weren’t. The fact that Cheney and Rumsfeld’s business partners made billions off of the whole thing should send up some red flags, but I guess partisan loyalty will satisfy over American interests.
The real issue here is whether or not what was done was illegal. If it was, the guilty should pay, regardless of who it was. Democrat, Republican, etc etc,… who cares? Oh right, I forgot….. Republican. Ouch!!
Don’t defend what should not be defended. Demand answers!!!! Are you an American or not?
If you don’t care whether the Republican/Conservatives obey the law, stop bitching if the Democrats/Liberals don’t.
Jul 15, 2009 - 9:26 pm 65. clarice:usa, your head is so full of misinformation it would take too long to clear the record. The procedure used by us was not the procedure used by the Japanese. It was one we use to train our own troops and does not and did not lead to death. In any event those Japanese soldiers were charged with far more that even their version of waterboarding.
I suggest if you think this is such a slam dunk for the Democrats, you read Holder’s confirmation hearing transcripts where he admits that while working for Clinton he specifically approved the rendition of several people in our custody, at least one of whom was killed in the course of his rendition interrogation.
Jul 16, 2009 - 8:21 am 66. usafirst:You can dance around the issue all you want, but the ordering of and carrying out of these so-called ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ (torture) was illegal. I’ve heard all of the justifications; they were necessary, they worked, not really torture (funny), etc.,etc. All of these excuses don’t really matter, or for that matter can’t really be quantified anyhow. It’s all just a smokescreen to cover their asses. If the law was broken (which it was), then the guilty should pay.
I don’t care about the Democrats. If they were guilty let them hang as well. This issue is not about ideology, its about the law.
BTW: Look hard at Cheney and the past administration. This isn’t the only time they broke the law. It seems they had no intention of being restrained about anything they wanted to do. I guess they figured their meat-head followers will back them up no matter what. Such a shame that is the case. Unfortunately it sets the new standard…. no standard. So now Obama can just do what he wants. See how that works. If you don’t demand that the former administration answer for it’s indiscretions, then SHUT UP about the current one.
Jul 16, 2009 - 10:07 am 67. clarice:Again, you confuse propaganda with facts.
And you try to pass off conclusions as debate.
Jul 16, 2009 - 1:08 pm 68. usafirst:Hopeless.
I agree you are hopeless. Never going to critisize your own party regardless to what they do. It’s never their fault, is it?
Jul 16, 2009 - 3:23 pm 69. BC:It’s tricky business: Obama is probably the only one who has a pretty good picture overall of what happened during Bush’s tenure, and apparently from what’s been leaking out and what can extrapolated from other bits here and there, there is a lot of bad stuff that would not only embarrass the US, but totally distract from his agenda. So he’s stuck with some no so attractive, no-win options in terms of how to weigh dealing with the less privvy members of congress who want to plunge ahead in stringing up Bush and his people, his supporters who want full disclosure and accountability, and probably his own personal feelings against what he probably intellectually if reluctantly realizes may be best for the country.
Jul 16, 2009 - 4:07 pm 70. JED:Torture has been done in all wars. It is part of the heat of battle and demand for vital information. The Geneva Convention rules were instituted to try to add some civility to murder, and make possible prisoner exchanges. Psychopathic sadists were tried. Most of the crimes against humanity were forgiven in a blanket pardon by the president as part of the healing process. Waving the flag of No Torture is trying to assume that all of the soldiers will not become enraged beyond the boundaries of discipline. That is not going to happen. Wars will happen and wars have to be ended beyond the surrender papers.
Jul 16, 2009 - 6:45 pm 71. Tri Geek:Oh my- The CIA “Discussed” capturing and/or killing the enemy. The discussions ended and the project did not go forward. Congress was not informed beacuse at that stage they were not required to be informed. Plus, if you want to keep anything secret, you do NOT tell Congress. The Dems do not care about National Security, only party power. They simply leak everything to the NYT. That used to be considered treason. How many secrets has Senator Leahy alone sent off to the NYT? The interrogation procedures we use are designed not to cause harm. All of those clowns who got waterboarded are perfectly healthy today. The Japanese use of torture were no holds barred, and if the prisoner died, so be it. If you can’t see the difference it is because you are blind. Our enemies know that the US is the most humane fighting force in the world. That is why they hide out in schools, mosques, and in neighborhoods. They know our soldiers are under strict rules of engagement. The enemy, on the other hand (the guys you are soooo concerned about protecting) purposely target innocents. Bombs in shopping malls, hotels, etc. They want to cause terror, and that is what they do. You would have us bend over to these clowns. I am so glad my family’s safety doesn’t depend on you.
Go ahead, tell me how that evil Chaney outed Valerie Plame. Nothing of the kind ever happened. There was NO crime. The Justice Dept knew that Richard Armitage outed Plame, yet clearly didn’t think it was a crime, beacause they never braught charges. Armitage was an anti-Bush guy in the State Dept. Stop with your goof-ball crime crap.
Jul 16, 2009 - 7:46 pm 72. ding:All of these truth commissions and left-directed inquiries by the press and ACLU agitation and disjointed rightwing defense muddy the water. Lost is the fact that a man of good will (W) did the best he could with what he had at hand to defend this country.
He used this nations three greatest assets to attack a serious problem; lawyers, guns and money.
Did he cross a line? Well that depends on where the law places that line now, doesn’t it. It’s all so subjective. W’s lawyers tried to establish the line on torture, (hard job that) and now the left has the option of revisiting the issue with their own peculiar vision. The law is a fluid thing, more so for the party in power.
Have/would most presidents have done the same under similar circumstances? Yes. The list abounds.
Will BHO cross a line or two? The answer is most assuredly yes, but will he lawyer up for party or country?
For a soundtrack to this post see, “Lawyers, Guns and Money” by Warren Zevon.
Jul 17, 2009 - 10:40 am 73. Paul -Indiana:#51. Your analysis seems reasonable. Most people won’t see through it, either.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:39 pm 74. Robohobo:Just more kabuki theater to keep the serfs busy.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:44 pm 75. Mr. M:To hell with both parties. There both corrupt to the core. My prayer is that I see a majority of those in both parties one day face the justice they so rightfully deserve.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:59 pm