Pajamas Media

100 Comments

1. Leatherneck:

I was surprised it took Israel so long to act.

Go Israel!

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:28 am 2. Valerie:

Since the media plays into the hands of the Palis and their propaganda, it’s difficult to imagine how Israel can ever do anything that would be considered ”just” by a majority of UN members or any other majority, for that matter.

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:30 am 3. gboisjo:

Hamas a pathetic immoral culture of death. In the words of one Hamas terrorist fighter ” The difference between me and a Israeli fighter is the Israeli wants to fight and live. I on the other hand want to fight and die. God willing I will be a martyr”. What a warped and pathetic view on the sanctity of life.

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:36 am 4. gboisjo:

Palistian children under 5 on stage with suicide vest on. Good job mom and dad. A pathetic immoral culture of death.
http://www.liveleak.com/view...
9434

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:39 am 5. tino:

It is beyond me that Israel is compelled to justify her fight against moslem terrorist – these sick, murderous savages. Hamas are nothing but gangsters, a nihilistic organization killing its people. Who would want hamas – excuse while I spit – on their own borders?

While Israelis teach their children arts, sciences, languages, history, etc., Palestinians coach their young ones to become better martyrs by blowing themselves up or in the art of cutting a human head off. Where is the proportionally in that?

Israel is fighting to protect her citizens and the core values of all western democracies. What Israel is doing should be the model for the rest of the world to follow.

There is no war more honorable than this against Islamism.

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:44 am 6. Cybergeezer:

Moral, you ask? If the U.S. were after this vermin for lobbing mortars across our border, we’d turn the place back to the sand it came from.
This question needs to be put to the mohammedans. I’ll bet they think it’s moral.

Jan 11, 2009 - 5:25 am 7. Ann:

You know what? I’m not even going to pretend I read this article. I read the headline and scanned the first paragraph to be sure the headline wasn’t misleading.

Now I have some questions:

Are terrorist groups/ideals immoral?

Is crucifixion of Christians in Gaza immoral? (Hamas announced within the last couple of days they are resuming that admirable practice, as directed by the Koran)

Is rocketing Israel for months on end (with no apparent reason other than chronic hatred) immoral?

The only thing we can say for it is that (1) the crap-nonsense becomes more exposed for what it is and (2) thank God! (that would be Jehovah-YAWH, not allah) because of the internet it is easier to drag the truth into the light.

Jan 11, 2009 - 5:26 am 8. Vaughn:

While most wars are politically driven and for some economic gain. This conflict strikes me as the most ‘just’ war of my 60 years. Fighting for pure, survival is something the rest of the world does not comprehend.
Islam must be destroyed before it eats through the fabric of civilization.
It is truly time, for a worldwide Crusade by ALL, against this cancer.

Jan 11, 2009 - 6:08 am 9. Mark Epstein:

Outstanding! Israel’s right to defend herself is consistently maligned in the press and governmental entities. The operation in Gaza is not about anything other than self-preservation as outlined here: http://markepstein.wordpress.com/2009/01/11/dont-defend-yourself-because-you-might-hurt-your-enemy/

Jan 11, 2009 - 6:28 am 10. SAF:

Not defending your people from eight years of missile attacks is immoral.

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:13 am 11. GlenR:

There is nothing ‘moral’ about the indiscriminate killing of innocents. But as expected the phony Christians and right wingnuts who post here drool over the thought of dead Arabs.

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:42 am 12. Saltherring:

Cowardly “moderators” do no service to PJM or its readers.

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:48 am 13. ReConUSMC:

Facts Matter ….
Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave an interview and was asked about Israel’s occupation of Arab lands.
His response was “It’s our land”. The reporter (CNN or the like) was stunned – read below “It’s our land…” It’s important information since we don’t get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.
“Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict.”
Here are overlooked facts in the current &n bsp; Middle East situation.
These were compiled by a Christian university professor:

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israe l by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10 The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab la nds to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people’s lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey .
13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The PLO’s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians20enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren about we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference?

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:49 am 14. Matt:

If Israel is right to defend itself then aren’t the Palestinians unassociated with Hamas right to defend themselves when they get hit? You’re never in the right when you kill innocent people. The relatives and friends of innocent people who are killed by the Israeli strike may turn to Hamas for retribution.
How many Israelis have been hurt/killed?
How many innocent Palestinians have been hurt/killed?
No doubt Hamas needs to be stopped, but if you don’t do it the right way then you turn non-aggressors into further opposition.

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:01 am 15. Gert:

Israel has occupied land (the West Bank – WB) that belongs to the Palestinians for over 40 years now, as condemned by UN Resolution 242 (adopted unanimously by the UN SC). During those 40 years of military occupation Israel has colonised that land by allowing and encouraging settlements to be built there (today over 275,000 Israeli settlers occupy the best land of the WB), making the creation of a Palestinian state (on their own land) impossible.

How would Americans feel if part of their land was being occupied by a foreign power and foreign settlers be allowed to make their home on that occupied territory? How would they react and what would they do? Would they resist? Please try and answer these questions honestly…

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:09 am 16. Bill Perron:

The fighters for Hamas want to die martyrs, Israel’s fighters are doing their best to help them achieve their goal of martyrdom, so what’s the problem ?

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:24 am 17. mk:

Gert, you need to read up on some actual history.

But whatevs. I’m sure you’ve got a response to that too.

First Fact: the West Bank belonged to Jordan between 1948 and 1967. Not the Palestinians. Nice try.

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:30 am 18. mohammed:

8. Vaughn:
‘It is truly time, for a worldwide Crusade by ALL, against this cancer’
Ask the crusaders of the centuries past, they have been left with a bitter taste up till today. George Bush tried to restart the crusade, see where it has left America. I guess you are happy with the state of your country. The only tragedy is this guy has not been given a third term. Even your worst enemies would not have done a better job. May be that can be salvaged because I heard somewhere that Jeb is being lined up.

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:34 am 19. mohammed:

15. Bill Perron:
The fighters for Hamas want to die martyrs, Israel’s fighters are doing their best to help them achieve their goal of martyrdom, so what’s the problem ?

The problem are the civilians caught up in the middle. Have you heard a single protest against killing of Hamas millitants? NO. If Israel can legitimize the killing of civilians during this attack and imposing collective punishment for the Palestinians voting of Hamas, then this is no different to the logic that terrorist use when they kill innocent civilians claiming they have become legitimate targets for voting their governments. You fool.

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:41 am 20. ReConUSMC:

11. GlenR:
There is nothing ‘moral’ about the indiscriminate killing of innocents. But as expected the phony Christians and right wingnuts who post here drool over the thought of dead Arabs.
________________________________________
Glen R. You are a blind real Nut or a racial moslem or far left prevert …..
So suicide Bombing Israeli’s on School Buses ,in their Schools , Pizza Shops and Rockets Attacks for three years none stop on innocent Villages…. many of those Rockets coming from Private homes and Mosque …… draws no anger from you and is somehow justified ?
Even After Israel gave them the land for Peace .
The GAZA was a once thriving land Israel had rebuilt . Sand was irrigated to produce great crops
HAMAS’ burned down all the HUNDREDS of green houses and didn’t till the land there because it had been touched by Isreali’s ….. so they go hungry .Hamas wants many who live in Gaza to die because it helps them with the world press and nuts like you . If they cared ….. thy would STOP THE ROCKET ATTACK .. DUH !
The mission of Hamas’ is to kill Israeli ……. period …. a temp peace treaty only allows them to rearm from Iran .
Iran wants to level Israel and America as well and is Supporting Hamas’ So they can take over the entire middle east ……. and that is why Egypt . Jordan , Saudi A. , Kuwait and Iraq are afraid of the power of Iran and the nuts who run that country .
Glen R. you are a Moron !

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:43 am 21. idov:

There is no such thing as “occupied territories.” That’s an Arab legal claim. There are “disputed territories,” Judea and Samaria. Article 80 of the UN Charter, that’s the constitution, gives the Jews the right to settle in any part of Palestine, having ratified the League of Nations resolution on the matter. Any resolutions to the contrary are unconstitutional.

Judea and Samaria were awarded to the Palestinians in 1947. They were occupied by Jordan during its failed attempt with others to drive the Jews into the sea. Only the UK recognized this plainly illegal occupation and no one anywhere protested. The Palestine Liberation Organization was founded in 1964 to liberate not Judea and Samaria, but Israel itself from Jewish presence.

No one is going back to the 1947 borders nor is anyone going back to the 1948 ceasefire lines. Jordanian law requires that Judea and Samaria be “free of Jews,” and that’s the law the Arabs are quoting when they say Jews living there are illegal. They’ll get something if they want to negotiations without delusions, but that hasn’t happened yet.

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:59 am 22. mohammed:

12. ReConUSMC:
18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians20enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount

You must be deluded and delusional to believe this. Is this the UN that has the US, UK, France Russia and China as permanent security council members? You are suffering from the syndrome that affects all Zionists. If-you-are-not-with-us-you-have-to-be-against-us.

Jan 11, 2009 - 9:22 am 23. Evil Otto:

The problem are the civilians caught up in the middle.

Funny that Arabs don’t get concerned when it’s Israeli civilians caught in the middle. Only a few years ago Israel was suffering a continued string of terrorist attacks targeting its civilian population, all courtesy of the Palestinians. The outrage from people like you, mohammed, was lacking. In fact, what I kept hearing was that the terrorists actions were justified. So you’ll pardon me if I don’t get all weepy now that the Palestinians are suffering the consequences of their sick mindset.

Have you heard a single protest against killing of Hamas millitants?

You mean TERRORISTS? No, because the “Hamas militants” are being portrayed as innocents, despite their continued attacks on Israel.

NO. If Israel can legitimize the killing of civilians during this attack and imposing collective punishment for the Palestinians voting of Hamas,

The irony is that the Palestinians want to be treated as a legitimate state, but then whine when they have to suffer the consequences. The Palestinians voted Hamas in as their government. Their government has repeatedly attacked another nation, so they shouldn’t be surprised when they are attacked back.

then this is no different to the logic that terrorist use when they kill innocent civilians claiming they have become legitimate targets for voting their governments.

So no one is allowed to fight back against terrorists? In fact, taking your logic (such as it is) to its conclusion, no one is allowed to fight back against ANY murderous group because civilians might be harmed.

However, the difference here is that only one side in this conflict is targeting civilians. That would be Hamas.

You fool.

Whatever. Get back to us when you’re willing to hold Hamas to the same standards as you hold the Israelis.

Jan 11, 2009 - 9:50 am 24. Bill Perron:

MOHAMMED When did Hamas get the right to send hundreds of missiles into Israel killing innocent people ? Why no protests from Arabs about that? Hamas clearly started this and it is their fault if innocent people are killed. Israel has a right to defend itself. Calling me a fool only demonstrates just how ignorant of the reality of truth those who see the world as you do really are. I feel sorry for you and all others who have a closed mind and refuse to open it, because you are all doomed to failure.

Jan 11, 2009 - 9:58 am 25. john from cinncinatti:

the muslims can issue fatwas saying that all Americans and Israelis should be attacked all over the world and the people in Mumbai weren’t innocent civilians? the tunnels all through Gaza were built with the knowledge of the Palestinians. so how innocent are the Palestinians? what standard are we using to qualify what and innocent civilian is. human shields don’t qualify as innocent they qualify as organic body armor.

Jan 11, 2009 - 10:01 am 26. gboisjo:

The truth is that if wasn’t for oil most of the arab world would cease to exist as we know it. Without easy money and the weapons they buy to keep there neighbors at bay they would quickly revert back to tribal fueding and blood letting among themselves as they always have. Would you expect anything different from a religion who’s profit was a warrior and his life may have killed as many as twenty people himself. Sooner or later the world will have to face off with this culture of death or it will consume us. I laugh at some of the post here who defend Palistine and Hamas. Realize one thing Jew haters the arabs in Palistine hate your guts and if they could they would kill you. Allah would give them a gold star for it…

Jan 11, 2009 - 10:04 am 27. Evil Otto:

Ask the crusaders of the centuries past, they have been left with a bitter taste up till today.

Odd that, given how easily most Muslim countries are to conquer. The European nations held on to most of their Middle Eastern colonies for how long, mohammed? The US defeated Saddam’s armies on two separate occasions in a matter of weeks. Even the Iraqi (cough) “resistance” has not driven the US out, and has rather brutalized the people there in the same tradition as Saddam. In addition, there’s not a single Arab nation that has the military strength to conquer a tiny nation filled with refugee Jews. Even when they combined their strength they still couldn’t manage it.

George Bush tried to restart the crusade, see where it has left America. I guess you are happy with the state of your country.

Even when our economy is in the toilet (which won’t last… it never does) I’d take living in the US over living in some festering third-world Muslim nation without hesitation. Your nations produce little of value besides oil and suicide bombers. They export nothing in goods that the world wants. They invent nothing. They export no culture that anyone follows. If it wasn’t for the accident of them sitting on a resource that people want they would be some of the poorest, most backwards countries on earth.

So don’t lecture us, sitting as you are behind a computer that is a western invention, connected to an internet invented and maintained by the United States and her allies.

Jan 11, 2009 - 10:04 am 28. cedarford:

Matt:
If Israel is right to defend itself then aren’t the Palestinians unassociated with Hamas right to defend themselves when they get hit? You’re never in the right when you kill innocent people. The relatives and friends of innocent people who are killed by the Israeli strike may turn to Hamas for retribution.
How many Israelis have been hurt/killed?
How many innocent Palestinians have been hurt/killed?
No doubt Hamas needs to be stopped, but if you don’t do it the right way then you turn non-aggressors into further opposition.

The whole Left-media meme of “innocent people” in war is intellectually bankrupt. Who then are the “guilty”? The fighters on each side doing their duty?
Unless you are talking serious war crimes, the concepts of innocence, guilt, due legal process, even peacetime morality are all inoperative. You need to maim and kill people without trial in the course of winning a war. You kill, preferably, not in self-defense in battle, but safely shooting retreating foe in the back, cluster-bombing their positions from perfect safety. You want to destroy bridges and other infrastructure 99% used and paid for by “innocents”.

You’re never in the right when you kill innocent people.

Of course you are. I got commendations in the Gulf War for locating a hidden armor position, manned by innocent Iraqi draftees, and what analysis showed were a few Iraqi civilians…that we cluster-bombed two days later, killing or badly maiming 40-50 of them. 4 of us were so right in wasting those “innocents” we also got medals….We felt great we found and nailed them, no regrets about the blasting away we did — the only regret was that Saddam had set it up so their dumb asses had to get wasted.

And the more innocents you kill, you say, the more enemies you make? Another largely inoperative Lefty concept. Beyond a certain “rallying” point, like the light losses in the Battle of Britain – the more you punish the enemy of soldiers and civilians alike, the more you demoralize them and push them closer to breaking their will, and getting a lasting peace or even outright victory..

It is also stupid arithmetic to carry some sort of “proportionality” tally sheets saying as soon as you kill or wound more of the enemy than they did STARTING a war, “you are in the wrong”.
Hamas started this, initiating it by tossing ordance across borders. That they end up paying a heavier price than Israel, is a well and good thing. If 100 “innocent” Pali soldiers and civilians have to die and another 200 become casualties for each Israeli resident harmed – so they will be forced to stop their unprovoked acts of war against Israeli towns – so be it.

****************
ReConUSMC:
Facts Matter ….

(He then proceeds to regurgitate 20 dumb Christian Zionist talking points borrowed mostly from discredited Zionist propaganda.)

Typical garbage:

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israe l by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

7 – The Qu’ran, which Muslims believe as seriously as the Biblical stuff saying David founded Jerusalem despite archaeological evidence of Caananite habitation prior to that -and the Qu’ran says Mohammed journeyed to Jerusalem after death and ascended to Paradise from Jerusalem. Making it the 3rd most Holy Site to Islamics.
8 – Muslims pray with their backs to Jerusalem? Laughable when you consider the location of most Muslims in the world has them facing Mecca AND Jerusalem when they pray. Less than 1% of Muslims living, those South of Jerusalem and north of Mecca within 2 degrees of longitude, actually do prayer with their backs to Jerusalem, or Medina, for that matter,,,
9. The Zionist myth of “radio broadcasts” where Arab Christians and Muslims voluntarily left was debunked in the 60s by British researchers who gained access to all the signals intercept records of the time. It was pure ethnic cleansing. Now the Zionists admit it. Only guillable Christian Zionists convinced their betters never lie, still believe that Whopper.

Zionist lies and half-truths and dissimulations have won them few converts that believe their tales. The Christian Zionists are at an even deeper disadvantage persuading others because they are largely ignorant of the other side of the story. Same deal as when the Fundie gomers try and debate the 6,000 year old Earth and the impossiblity of evolution….

Jan 11, 2009 - 11:04 am 29. pease:

gboisjo

If it was not for the US money Israel would not exist.
The Arabs were there before the oil came to the surface.

Jan 11, 2009 - 12:22 pm 30. Wil:

Mohammed

Let me give you a little history lesson , prior to the your prophet’s birth , the following population of these lands were Christians . Syria , Lebanon , half of Mesopotamia , Sudan , Palestine ( Israel) , Morocco , Algeria , Turkey and Ethiopia . The Persian majority were Zoroastrians , in India , Buddhism and Hinduism as well as animism were the three major religions . After the Islamic conquest , all of the Levant , North Africa , Persia and half of the Indian subcontinent fell into the muslim invaders . The muslim invaders also occupied the Iberian Peninsula and proceeded into present day France until they were stopped by Charles Martel at Tours . They also captured Sicily until they were driven out by the Christians . The crusades , boy , was a military response not only to the harassment and enslavement of Christian pilgrims going muslim occupied Holy land , it was also a way for them to stop the muslim invaders from invading Europe . And oh btw , the last Islamic military invasion of Europe was stopped at the gates of Vienna in 1683 . If you are going to lie , learn how to read history first .

Jan 11, 2009 - 12:29 pm 31. richarde67:

As I read this string…it is really a sad thing…I don’t want to call myself a “Muslim Hater,” but it is really difficult to see myself as anything else. Muslims love war…hate…and oppression.

Let’s look at the current situation for through a different lense for a second.

US and Canada…at war for 50+ years…Canada’s ruling “faction” sending rockets into Seattle for 2 years….the US does nothing…as their citizens are getting killed…life is uncertain…buildings getting bombed…their land destroyed.

One day…the US gets sick and tired…and says…”enough is enough” and fights back. They go to WAR.

However, the Canadian “faction” is a bunch of cowards…so they dress as civilians…and they fight from civilian locations…well…guess what…your civilians are going to get wiped out…and the people have no one to blame but themselves.

If the Palestinians are so willing to let Hamas fight from their neighborhoods…they need to accept the death that comes along with that. Hamas is at blame…and I for one…hope that Israel eliminates Hamas as a continued threat…as Hamas has done zero to assist the Palestinian people…other than to bring continued hardship for them.

Then to see the demonstrations and riots around the world by the Muslim people is a testament to their predisposition to violence. Come on…who is fooling who. Muslim people hate…the love war…they love oppression…and it is a very sad thing.

Yes, it is sad to see Palestinian people getting killed…but…the Palestinians need to stand up against Hamas…and make them fight like soldiers…not fight within the city…dressed as civilians. Cowards.

People of Palestine…this is your issue to stop. Stop Hamas from allowing your people to die…

One last thought. Can anyone tell me what any Muslim country does to bring anything of value to the rest of the world…other than their domination over oil? What do they produce? What do they contribute? I am totally stumped…I can’t think of anything. Which brings me back to…this is the only group of people on the planet that contribute zero…other than hate and discontent. Look at Iran and Iraq…sheesh…they can’t even get along with one another…Shite’s and Shia’s have been fighting forever.

Israel needs to be vigilant…and they need to protect their land…and I for one hope that they eliminate Hamas…and any other “faction” that tries to create more hardship.

Jan 11, 2009 - 12:39 pm 32. Sylvie:

Israel has every legitimate right to dcfend itself from the barbaric use of thousands of qassams, rockets and mortar fire hurled into her towns and cities for eight years now, the last three after Israel turned over the whole of Gaza to the Palestinians of Hamas for a Palestinian State of their own, at great expense to itself. Millions of dollars poured into the Hamas ‘kitty’ for this purpose but contrarily no Palestinian State ever came to be! Instead the Jewish State became the moral victim of the ‘Hamas Charter’ calling for its destruction and an Islamic ‘Palestine’ created in its place! Now, it is believed that no civilised Country in the world would have shown such restraint those eight years as Israel did when witnessing the suffering of its women and children especially those living in the south day in and day out running into shelters with a pounding heart not knowing if it was their last. But the time came 16 days ago when Israel just had to burst… and burst Israel did. The Arabs of Gaza… begging your pardon those Arabs who call themselves ‘Palestinians’… voted for Hamas whole-heartedly accepting that punishment against Israel was due. Well it seems Punishment is tragically coming to them full circle today 16 days later…….

Jan 11, 2009 - 1:19 pm 33. Joshua hickman:

The whole wide world should salute Hugo Chavez and follow his path.

Jan 11, 2009 - 1:34 pm 34. Indian:

Considering that the arab world loves shoe-throwing antics, deal with them on their own evolutionary level if israel has to win the PR war.
1. Plant the israeli flag on top of all mosques in gaza.
2. Place huge billboards all over gaza that say “Israel loves Hamas” (we’re baaack..thanks to you. )
3. Make plans to pipe huge amounts of sea water into the territory if the tunneling continues. A new Venice.
4 .Provide expected casualty rates of a minimum 10,000 israeli soldiers’ deaths. Wars of survival shouldn’t be run by debating teams and by pollsters looking nervously at the electorates. It should be unanimous… Raise the threshold SO high that, any outcome would be a victory for israel.

And don’t sell hi-tech arms to China and other enemies of America, you profit-minded ingrates

Jan 11, 2009 - 1:42 pm 35. richarde67:

Joshua?????

Yeah…good one. Hugo is a true role model. He has succeeded to do little to zero for his country…other than for the very rich…who have now become much richer…yes…oil again. Millions of his people are starving to death. Have you been to Venezuela? I have…it is not a pretty picture of what is happening there.

However, now that he has become the dictator that his buddy ole Fidel was…he now has something to really aspire to…hmmmm…what could that be. Some type of war? Who knows.

All I know is this…Venezuela is going to find itself in a very precarious situation…as even those in South America believe that Hugo is crazy.

Ok, so he threw out the Israeli Ambassador…again…a truly “communist” thing to do…and a testament to all who follow Hugo of what is to come.

“Ah…you say that is your money in that bank…nah…I am going to make it ‘government’ funds.”

The people of Venezuela need to be careful what they wish for…they will find themselves in a situation similar to Cuba…(I really don’t care to hear about the oil argument…as within 10-12 years…the rest of the world will not be as nearly oil dependent as it is today…and the oil rich countries of the world that produce little else will truly find themselves in a quandary.)

Jan 11, 2009 - 1:55 pm 36. cedarford:

richarde67 – One last thought. Can anyone tell me what any Muslim country does to bring anything of value to the rest of the world…other than their domination over oil? What do they produce? What do they contribute? I am totally stumped…I can’t think of anything.

There are a few nations on the cutting edge of technology that get “firsts”, a few more with vibrant cultures we utilize in areas like music, the arts….and the vast bulk of humanity that goes along and work and mostly succeed in giving good lives for their citizens, but may be “unremarkable”. Most Latin American countries, most Aftican & Muslim ones. What has the Philippines done?
And as Harry Lime said of the Swiss – 300 years of peace and Democracy and their only (unique) contribution is the cuckoo clock.

On the other hand, right before WWII, the nation with the most per capita olympic gold medals, patents, with a global lead in more global technologies than any nation but the USA, with the highest manufacturing quality was…you know who….

The “Arabs” as Untermenschen and thus unworthy of respect argument, is a precarious one.

Jan 11, 2009 - 1:57 pm 37. vivi libero o muori:

The jews are indestructable. They were conquered by the assyrians, the persians, and countless other empires, and although they dispersed and assimilated into the ‘diaspora’ they never let go of their identities. NO OTHER group of people has held onto their identity and belief structure as the Jews have done. We can thank Jews for our current economy, the basic tenets of democracy and fair trials, and everthing that the anti-semitic UN and EU hold dear. They should support Israel and their people. They truly are the birth-race of civilization. And to all the pro-jihadists, go F urselves. You profess to love death, then cower behind women and children. While the rest of the world have invented everything that you use in daily life (guns, rockets, bombs, tnt, televisions, refrigirators, cars, concrete, steel, medical technology and supplies, you have only created death and strife. you are weak. we are strong. we triple your numbers. we have nukes, you do not. we know there’s a mroal responsibility to use the last item as a last resort. u pray to use it as a first resort. that makes you animals of the sickest kind. May all islamists and jihadists find that their religion is a fraud when they die and meet emptiness…

Jan 11, 2009 - 2:13 pm 38. Matt:

Wow, that article is complete bull. It is a complete manipulation of the various legitimate forms of the just war doctrine because any try just war doctrine also considers the likely repercussions of a just in the consideration of whether it is just. Such repercussions as thinking that you can stop an insurgency movement (which Hamas really still is) by using force and not by taking away its legitimacy and popular support. This attacks on Gaza are unjust because they will be worse for Israel in the long run. Its naive to think otherwise. I’m sorry, but that’s just how the world works. Maybe you people should get out more and talk to some insurgents to figure out what they fight against people like you. If you say they they are __(insert dehumanizing label here)__ and don’t deserve that understanding then I’m sorry, you’ll never win. The blockade (military siege), attacks and invasion are just giving people all over the world over more reason to hate Israel and fight against it. I’m not says there’s no threat from Hamas, I’m just saying there are other ways and that you are making it worse. Read your US Counterinsurgency Field Manual by Petraeus and then read Insurgency and Terrorism by O’Neill so you can stop being so violently ignorant that you end up hurting yourselves. I’m not saying war is never just, only that you obviously don’t know at all what you are talking about. I know you think you know what you’re talking about but like I said, you’ve probably never made friends with an insurgent to understand their motivation. I differ your interpretation of the situation to Stephen Hawkins: “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

Jan 11, 2009 - 2:22 pm 39. richarde67:

cedarford: “and mostly succeed in giving good lives for their citizens, but may be “unremarkable”. Most Latin American countries, most Aftican & Muslim ones”

Personally, I live in Switzerland. I have traveled the world…living in India for 2 years…spent time in Egypt…Saudi Arabia…all of Europe…US, most of Central and South America…and with that said…you have made a good point…and I should have been more specific.

I should not have said “Muslim” countries…as a great percentage of Africa is indeed Muslim…and as you have pointed out…a great deal of culture is derived from Africa…as poor as it is.

What I should have said…had I stated what I was thinking…was what do the Middle Eastern countries (from Pakistan to the heart of the middle east) contribute other than their dominance in the oil industry.

I have traveled far and wide…and other than their food…which the origin could be argued…I see zero that they contribute other than war. Culture? Zero…unless keeping your women oppressed is considered culture.

Other than the opium fields of Afghanistan, this region of the world really contributes nothing.

However, little Israel contributes widely.

A few excerpts from Wikipedia:

“Israel is considered one of the most advanced countries in Southwest Asia in economic and industrial development.”

“The country has been ranked highest in the region on the World Bank’s Ease of Doing Business Index[170] as well as in the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report.”

“It has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world (after the United States) and the largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies outside North America.”

“In 2007, Israel had the 44th-highest gross domestic product and 22nd-highest gross domestic product per capita (at purchasing power parity) at US$232.7 billion and US$33,299, respectively.”

“Leading exports include fruits, vegetables, pharmaceuticals, software, chemicals, military technology, and diamonds; in 2006, Israeli exports reached US$42.86 billion.”

“Israel is a global leader in water conservation and geothermal energy,and its development of cutting-edge technologies in software, communications and the life sciences have evoked comparisons with Silicon Valley.”

“Israel has the highest school life expectancy in Southwest Asia, and is tied with Japan for second-highest school life expectancy on the Asian continent (after South Korea).”

“Israel similarly has the highest literacy rate in Southwest Asia, according to the United Nations.”

“Proficiency in core subjects such as mathematics, Bible, Hebrew language, Hebrew and general literature, English, history, and civics is necessary to receive a Bagrut certificate.[187] In Arab, Christian and Druze schools, the exam on Biblical studies is replaced by an exam in Islam, Christianity or Druze heritage.”

(Could you imagine an Arab state with Jewish studies being “acceptable?” No way).

“In 2006, the Hebrew University was ranked 60th[192] and 119th[193] in two surveys of the world’s top universities.”

“Israel ranks third in the world in the number of citizens who hold university degrees (20 percent of the population).”

“Israel has produced four Nobel Prize-winning scientists[197] and publishes among the most scientific papers per capita of any country in the world.”

“Israel has embraced solar energy, its engineers are on the cutting edge of solar energy technology and its solar companies work on projects around the world. Over 90% of Israeli homes use solar energy for hot water, the highest per capita in the world.”

“According to the Ministry of National Infrastructures, the country saves an estimated 2 million barrels of oil a year because of its solar energy use.”
—————–
This little country of just over 7 million people “CONTRIBUTES.” Yet they have to put of with the B.S. of its war minded fanatical neighbors…and in spite of this continued nonsense…still continues to be one of the highest contributing countries in the world.

The entire Middle Eastern community doesn’t hold a candle to Israel with respect to contribution. This says a lot…really.

Israel…my hat is off to you. Eliminate Hamas as a threat…and continue to contribute to the world as you have. We are all better for it!

Jan 11, 2009 - 2:32 pm 40. Terry Gain:

@37 Matt

“This attacks on Gaza are unjust because they will be worse for Israel in the long run. Its naive to think otherwise. I’m sorry, but that’s just how the world works. Maybe you people should get out more and talk to some insurgents to figure out what they fight against people like you”.

—

Would I be wrong if I guessed you said the same thing about Iraq? Israel needs to kill enough Hamas leaders that the rest give up: the same strategy that succeeded in Iraq. Quitting before the job is done will guarantee that the war continues after Hamas regroups.

It is a contest of wills so why should Israel take advice from someoene who has already concede the contest to the other side? If indeed Hamas is on the other side to you.

Jan 11, 2009 - 2:58 pm 41. Evil Otto:

Wow, that article is complete bull. It is a complete manipulation of the various legitimate forms of the just war doctrine because any try just war doctrine also considers the likely repercussions of a just in the consideration of whether it is just.

Anyone want to try to diagram that last sentence? I think my eyes started bleeding from even trying to understand the point of it.

Such repercussions as thinking that you can stop an insurgency movement (which Hamas really still is)

No, Matt, they’re a government. Their people voted them into power and they have assumed a leadership role for the Palestinians. As such, they should be treated in the same way as any other government that insisted on launching rockets into a neighboring country: told to stop, and pounded flat if they refuse.

by using force and not by taking away its legitimacy and popular support.

And HOW is Israel supposed to do that? Do they have magical powers? The Palestinians are such a basket-case of a people that they voted a terrorist organization into power. It isn’t some small minority of people showing support for terrorist attacks… IT’S THE MAJORITY. The Palestinian people have repeatedly expressed the wish that Israel disappear and that the Jews die. And how is Israel supposed to take away the “legitimacy” of that?

Frikkin’ liberals. You never have any real answers, do you? Just feelings.

This attacks on Gaza are unjust because they will be worse for Israel in the long run. Its naive to think otherwise.

You don’t get to be the judge of who’s naive and who’s not, Matt, especially given what you’ve written here.

I’m sorry, but that’s just how the world works.

No, that’s how you want the world to work. Learn the difference.

Maybe you people should get out more and talk to some insurgents to figure out what they fight against people like you.

That may be the single stupidest sentence I’ve read so far in 2009.

If you say they they are __(insert dehumanizing label here)__ and don’t deserve that understanding then I’m sorry, you’ll never win.

Who’s “you?” We may support Israel here, for the most part, but most of us aren’t actually Israeli. Are you talking about other “insurgents,” like al Qaeda? Should we talk to them? Perhaps stop referring to them with “__(insert dehumanizing label here)__?”

The blockade (military siege), attacks and invasion are just giving people all over the world over more reason to hate Israel and fight against it.

Like they’ve ever needed a reason. I think the Jews have grown accustomed to people all over the world hating them. What’s odd that no matter what atrocities Hamas commits, people like you NEVER show any hatred of them. Israel is allowed to take no action that may cause harm to the poor Palestinian innocents, but leftist twits will bend over backwards to justify every action performed by the Palestinians, no matter how horrific.

I’m not says there’s no threat from Hamas,

Actually, you pretty much are saying that.

I’m just saying there are other ways and that you are making it worse.

Again, who is “you?” Do you think you’ve stumbled into an Israeli forum?

Read your US Counterinsurgency Field Manual by Petraeus and then read Insurgency and Terrorism by O’Neill so you can stop being so violently ignorant that you end up hurting yourselves.

Petraeus? Isn’t he the one behind the Surge in Iraq? the one that has killed far more terrorists (sorry, didn’t mean to wound your oh-so-politically-correct psyche, Matt… “insurgents.”)? THAT Petraeus. Looks like the Israelis have read his book and are taking his advice. The first rule? SHOOT BACK.

I’m not saying war is never just,

Unless it’s Israel fighting back.

only that you obviously don’t know at all what you are talking about.

That’s a bit like being called “short” by a hobbit. We were just told we don’t know what we’re talking about by someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

I know you think you know what you’re talking about but like I said, you’ve probably never made friends with an insurgent to understand their motivation.

I was wrong. THAT is the single stupidest sentence I’ve read in 2009. And perhaps 2008. MAKE FRIENDS WITH AN INSURGENT?!? ARE YOU FRIKKIN’ SERIOUS?

I differ your interpretation of the situation to Stephen Hawkins: “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

Umm, first, it’s Stephen Hawking, not “Hawkins.” Second, he may be a brilliant man, but he is a physicist, not a general, not an expert on foreign affairs, not an expert on Israeli/Palestinian issues. Third, he didn’t actually say that. Historian Daniel Boorstein said it. Fourth, you might want to consider what he said… you have the illusion of knowledge, but you are ignorant.

Jan 11, 2009 - 3:28 pm 42. Terry Gain:

Cedarford entertains.

“There are a few nations on the cutting edge of technology that get “firsts”, a few more with vibrant cultures we utilize in areas like music, the arts….and the vast bulk of humanity that goes along and work and mostly succeed in giving good lives for their citizens, but may be “unremarkable”. Most Latin American countries, most Aftican & Muslim ones. What has the Philippines done?
And as Harry Lime said of the Swiss – 300 years of peace and Democracy and their only (unique) contribution is the cuckoo clock.

—

Muslim countries that succeed “in giving good lives for their citizens”! Right, so long as one isn’t concerned with trifles like freedom of religion, freedom of speech gender equality and other basic democratic rights.

As I type this Muslim natios are trying to get the UN to make it illegal to criticize Islam in non-Islamic countries.

As for the Swiss, having citizens of Italian, French and German origin living in peace in the same country is itself a great accomplishment.

Jan 11, 2009 - 3:33 pm 43. Matt:

Dear Evil Otto:

Thank you for your comments and please excuse my grammatical errors. As I said, please actually READ the Counterinsurgency Field Manual. While you are at it, READ Insurgency and Terrorism by O’Neill. The later book is actually referenced in the former. Once you have READ those and UNDERSTAND them you will see that I am providing real answers. The surge, as any good conflict analyst will tell you (and I’m not talking about the ones on CNN or Fox News), was only a single part of a larger effort to restore governmental legitimacy to Iraq. That, as the Field Manual states, is the goal of any counterinsurgency. I use the term “insurgent” because of the nature of the asymmetrical power dynamic and the nature of how Hamas came to power and the type of conflict they will face if Israel tries to maintain any sort of troop presence there. Another good read is The Utility of Force by British General Rupert Smith. It will better inform you of the use of force in modern conflict.

Also, didn’t someone once say “know your enemy”? (I’ll let you figure out who deserves that attribution on that one.) Maybe be there is strategic value in trying to understand them as people and what motivates them. That way you can better understand how to stop them from shooting rockets into Israel.

Finally, please don’t pigeonhole me as a liberal. I’m telling you to brush up on your current military strategy, not Gandhi or Marx or something like that.

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:16 pm 44. Bilgeman:

Mr. Bernstein:

“So, is the war on Hamas immoral? Is any war indeed just?”

Let me rephrase your question to highlight just how ridiculous a proposition these questions are.

Is the war on Hamas TASTEFUL?

Is any war indeed nutritious?

You seem to have bought into a legalistic view of the world and how it works. War is both and neither moral or just…it’s survival.

Really, fella, you either break the enemy’s will to fight or you exterminate him, or he does the same thing to you.
So where does justice and morality come into it?

After you win, or after he wins.

Your questions are things that are dreamed up for the aftermath to justify the inhuman cruelty that victory requires.

If you want to worry about the morality and justice of a war, you’d better damned well win it first.

Jan 11, 2009 - 4:58 pm 45. Knights13:

I don’t know who is going to win this battle or the others like it but no one is winning the war.

Jan 11, 2009 - 5:50 pm 46. Rekha brown:

I agree with Joshua and salute to Hugo Chavez. The only good human on earth.

Jan 11, 2009 - 5:51 pm 47. Evil Otto:

Thank you for your comments and please excuse my grammatical errors. As I said, please actually READ the Counterinsurgency Field Manual. While you are at it, READ Insurgency and Terrorism by O’Neill. The later book is actually referenced in the former. Once you have READ those and UNDERSTAND them you will see that I am providing real answers.

Really, Matt? Real answers?

“I know you think you know what you’re talking about but like I said, you’ve probably never made friends with an insurgent to understand their motivation.”

Granted, I haven’t read the books you mention, but I doubt General Petraeus recommends that in his manual.

In any case, you are participating in an internet discussion. I am not required to go out and read a book before I can argue with you. If there’s a point to be made, sum it up in your own words and stop invoking the books as if they were holy scripture.

The surge, as any good conflict analyst will tell you (and I’m not talking about the ones on CNN or Fox News), was only a single part of a larger effort to restore governmental legitimacy to Iraq. That, as the Field Manual states, is the goal of any counterinsurgency.

That’s nice. Totally beside the point, but nice. Hamas is in no way an “insurgency.”

Hamas claims to be a government. They follow (in their own brutal way) the forms and functions of government. They were voted into power by the people they claim to represent, using a system that was backed by international bodies. Thus, they are a government, and thus they can be treated as such for the purposes of war. Israel is fully within its right as a sovereign nation to fight them. Any other nation on earth wouldn’t have to justify itself in a similar situation.

Understand this, and understand it clearly: IT IS NOT ISRAEL’S RESPONSIBILITY TO “RESTORE GOVERNMENTAL LEGITIMACY” TO PALESTINE. It is their job to defend their people by ending a threat. If that means negotiation, then fine. If negotiation fails (as it has over and over again), then military force is fully justified.

I use the term “insurgent” because of the nature of the asymmetrical power dynamic

No, you use it to be politically correct. You use it to soften the truth of what Hamas really is.

and the nature of how Hamas came to power and the type of conflict they will face if Israel tries to maintain any sort of troop presence there.

It’s far too soon to tell whether Israel will decide to maintain any sort of troop presence there long term, but short term their goal seems to be to do as much damage to Hamas as possible.

Another good read is The Utility of Force by British General Rupert Smith. It will better inform you of the use of force in modern conflict.

Look, I’m sure it is a good read, but I have a room full of books (literally) waiting for me to read, and there’s only so much time in the day. Sum it up, OK?

Also, didn’t someone once say “know your enemy”? (I’ll let you figure out who deserves that attribution on that one.)

Steven Hawking?

(sigh) “Knowing” your enemy doesn’t mean they cease being your enemy. It means understanding their motivations, but it doesn’t imply that you don’t fight them and fight to win.

Since you’ve tossed numerous books for me to read, I’ve got two for you: “Civilization and its Enemies,” and “The Suicide of Reason,” both by Lee Harris. In them, Harris writes about the concept of the “enemy” and the failure of reason as a way to understand the enemy that the civilized world is fighting right now. You say “know your enemy,” but the fact is, Matt, I do, at least better than you. I’ve spent countless hours reading about them… their “tactics” (such as they are), their mindset, their goals, their beliefs.

You know what? The more I read about radical Islam, the more I understand, the LESS inclined I am to be their “friends.” The more I read, the darker my attitude towards them gets. Understanding doesn’t always lead one down a bright, shining path. Regarding Hamas and the Palestinians, the well of my concern for their well-being dried up and turned to dust years ago.

Harris talks about the fact that too many people make the mistake of seeing the terrorists goals in Clausewitzian terms… war as a means of gaining something from your enemy; the reasons the Western world fights wars. He argues that they do NOT see it this way and that any such attempt to portray their strategy and tactics in such a way is doomed to failure. After reading your comments, I have to say that YOU don’t know the enemy.

Maybe be there is strategic value in trying to understand them as people and what motivates them. That way you can better understand how to stop them from shooting rockets into Israel.

What? Seriously, what?!? Their “motivation” is to kill Israeli civilians. Their “motivation” is clear to anyone who’s spent even a few minutes reading what they say in their own words. How, exactly does understanding that help the Israelis stop them from shooting rockets?

I have a better way of stopping them: the Chicago way. “They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* way!” Make them understand that the consequences of an attack on Israel will be so horrifying that they will not wish to do so. I’m under no illusions; it will be brutal, ugly, and incredibly bloody. It will take years, decades. Numerous innocents will die. It may never happen; they may never understand. The Palestinians have convinced themselves that they’re going to win someday, that they’re going to drive the Jews into the sea and reclaim the whole of their territory. Peace can not be had until this illusion is stripped from them. The Palestinians must understand that the war is over, and THEY LOST.

Finally, please don’t pigeonhole me as a liberal. I’m telling you to brush up on your current military strategy, not Gandhi or Marx or something like that.

Really? Exactly what am I supposed to think? “I know you think you know what you’re talking about but like I said, you’ve probably never made friends with an insurgent to understand their motivation.” I mean, here you are telling us to be “friends” with “insurgents.” I’d no sooner be a friend with one than I would be a friend with a Nazi.

Jan 11, 2009 - 6:09 pm 48. Kirk Petersen:

Bilgeman (#44), you might want to read the article, or at least skim it, before making a lengthy comment. You clearly think Bernstein is judging the Gaza War immoral, when in fact he concludes the opposite.

At least you didn’t start like Ann (#7) by saying “I’m not even going to pretend I read this article” — before attacking what she wrongly thinks the article says.

Jan 11, 2009 - 6:15 pm 49. Evil Otto:

Is any war indeed nutritious?

How about the Cola Wars of the 1980s? Oh, wait, cola isn’t nutritious.

Jan 11, 2009 - 6:16 pm 50. Terry Gain:

“Maybe be there is strategic value in trying to understand them as people and what motivates them. That way you can better understand how to stop them from shooting rockets into Israel.”

They want to destroy Israel. That’s what motivates them. Capish? Reading military manuals isn’t helping you Matt. I suggest that you read the Koran.

Jan 11, 2009 - 6:32 pm 51. myth buster:

Legally speaking, Israel has not killed a single civilian. Hamas bears sole responsibility for all civilian casualties because they stand guilty of using human shields. If you hold a hostage and a police sniper shoots at you and kills the hostage, you are the murderer, not the police sniper.

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:00 pm 52. sportsguy:

Matt,
Hawkins quote,”“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.” refers to most Democratic platforms and opinions. I am so tired of the mainstream media mantras and the left-wing illogical positions, to lengthy to reiterate here, that go against the principals of the founding fathers of this country that should never be rewritten, undermined, or changed. That is the greatness of this country and our most worthy export to the rest of the world. I fear we are moving so far from those principals that it will be impossible to regain our true identity.

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:11 pm 53. shmuel:

Post 28 is the biggest pack of lies, mostly new lies. If you believe in Islam you believe therefore in the original (Jewish) bible.
If the Arab Muslim world would tak eresponsiboility for their actions and get on with their lives, we can live in peace. But they continue to live in a (false, self-imposed victimhood) past

Jan 11, 2009 - 7:33 pm 54. GB:

I seriously doubt that you’ve actually ever had any experience applying “the field manual” or have the slightest clue about when and how to use it. Your using it (or misusing it, I should say) for the convenience of argument. The Hawkins quote by Sportsguy is right on.

Your stance is purely ideological, naive, and belongs in classrooms for discussions. I think that the professional Israeli army knows exactly what it needs to know about its enemy. I doubt that, in the same situation, General Petreus would be applying the “field manual” as you think it should be applied. You use Muslim against Muslim as a basis for your argument (Iraq). Only a fool would apply the same kind of thinking to Muslim against Jew, especially when Palestinians have been force-fed from the cradle the ideology that Israel belongs at the bottom of the sea, and that the only good Jew (or Christian) is a dead Jew (or Christian).

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:31 pm 55. GB:

The previous post is to Matt.

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:33 pm 56. Regulator:

Haul the israflis up for crimes against humanity. (If they stop this assault any time soon, that is)

Jan 11, 2009 - 8:49 pm 57. Ann141:

48 Kirk Petersen…..guilty as charged:(

Just proves that publicly and boldly stating that I actually intended to write in an uninformed way doesn’t improve the outcome.

I find that the exercise of public “debate” and making use of freedom of expression via threads such as these is a challenge, and sometimes I just fall off the cliff. Very embarrassing.

Jan 11, 2009 - 9:20 pm 58. Jim Baker:

War is hell. Hamas should think of that before they start one, eh?

Jan 11, 2009 - 9:31 pm 59. BERLET98:

No war, and no online post, should go without challenge. This, aside from being a vehement challenge to Eli’s beliefs, offers a semi-related view on propaganda:

GLOBAL COOLING/WARMING UPDATES

NEWS FLASH: WINTERS TEND TO BE COLD!

Okay, technically that’s not news but, considering the ongoing and discredited hysteria over global warming, it should be.

Globalwarmists who profit from said hysteria, such as Al Gore and his global- warming compatriots, attribute extreme cold to, what else, global warming, just as they attribute hurricanes, tsunamis, tornados, floods, as well as tooth decay and male impotency, to global warming.

Of course, Al won the Nobel Peace Prize and an Oscar for his various efforts, including his schlockumentary, “An Inconvenient Truth,” so that must mean he’s an expert. Then again, Yassir Arafat won that same Peace Prize and Michael Moore won an Oscar so consider the context of those awards. Also consider my previous post on this topic, http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=722, “The Nobel Prize for Politics,” which provides an update on the globalwarmist charlatans.

If nothing else, we have to admit that those charlatans are dogged, braving on amidst every reasonable observation…

(Read the rest of this article at http://genelalor.com/.)

Jan 11, 2009 - 11:26 pm 60. Matt:

Here’s the thing. War is no longer primarily about nation states. It obviously still involves nation states but its about the power of people groups. It used to be that if you wanted political power you had to control a nation state in order to do anything. That is no longer the case. The proliferation of arms throughout the world and the increased communication capacities has changed the dynamics of the monopoly on organizational advantage that nation states used to have. If you look closely at the military history of the 20th century you will notice that most of the conflicts the US was involved with at least started as people movements before the controlled the state. Not only is referring to Vietnam, Central America in the 70’s and 80’s, or the current Iranian Regime, but also the Soviets and Nazis. Once we realize that it is no longer states that we have to deal with but people groups who can easily gain the power to overtake states then we gain a much for accurate and sophisticated look at the nature of modern warfare. Even if Israel completely destroys Hamas as we know it, something will take its place, whether they come from internal sources or external sources. The end goal is to then create a situation where the populations of those countries no longer want to support the insurgent groups. Obviously not all Muslims are militant extremists, correct? I’m you understand that there are many normal peaceful Muslims all around the world but I ask you why are some of them militant extremists? Are they just naturally born that way or do you think that some of them might be tempted to become more militant? What makes a person cross that line? Do you think that the blockade of Gaza forcing the people there into a position of dependency on Hamas helped Israel win over the Gazans? How about the first Israeli attacks on Gaza back in November that spurred an increase in rocket attacks? Do you think that helped either. I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t just take it laying down if a drop bombed on my house or my loved ones were killed by an invading army. How do you think the people of Gaza will react even with out Hamas? Will they just say oops, I’m sorry, we’ll submit now? Then, when a militant group like Hamas comes in and talks about how bad Israel is, I don’t blame them for believing them.

The problem is that Israel has never wanted Hamas to exist and their actions prove that and so Israel isn’t willing to take in form of negotiation seriously. Yes, I understand that Hamas’ charter doesn’t acknowledge Israel’s right to exist but if that was a condition for a treaty to be signed then we would have never signed such important things as the Nonproliferation Treaty with the Soviets. We didn’t acknowledge their control over eastern Europe but we still talked with them all the time so that things wouldn’t get out of hand.

Constructive engagement and cautious disentanglement. I’m sure you would argue that it has been tried and hasn’t worked but you have to really read all sides of the story, because both are obviously biased, and see that Israel’s goal has been to destroy Hamas before the ceasefire ever began. If they really cared about constructively resolving the conflict then they would have put as much money and manpower into it as they are doing so with the invasion.

On a side note, where are you getting all your information from about radical Islam? Is it from them or outsider that paint their own biased picture of them? Also, when you say radical Islam do you mean specifically Hamas or the Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or the Islamic Salvation Front or any other of the diverse groups that fall under the general umbrella term of radical Islam?

Finally, I use the word insurgent instead of terrorist because terrorist is too broad of a word. There are harsh dictators that are the head of sovereign terrorist states and are thus terrorist. Hamas was the government of Gaza but it was by no means sovereign considering that Israel controlled everything that entered or left their boarders. Israel has a fully industrialized Air Force, Army and Navy whereas Hamas has some rocket launchers and assault rifles. If Israel then works to suck the motivations for popular support away from Hamas, then they will be removing any power that the group has left. This will lead to the people of Gaza realizing how violent Hamas is and that they would be safer supporting Israel. Historically speaking, most insurgent movements are actually ended through treaty. Rarely is it through pure military defeat.

Jan 12, 2009 - 12:41 am 61. ajacksonian:

By seeking to explain criteria for war, the actual citation of what war actually is, that being the right of the individual, is not addressed.

As individuals we all have the right to wage war. Actually doing so is a negative liberty when attacking others and a positive liberty when done for self defense. That negative liberty we, as civilized individuals, invest in the Nation State to protect our society and ensure that it is protected against other Nation States (who also have the negative liberty of aggressive war at their disposal) and against those humans who reclaim their full set of rights and liberties and revert to the Law of Nature and turn away from the civilized understanding of the Law of Nations.

The object of the Nation State is to ensure that the practice of individuals reverting to the savage state of Nature are ended, both within and outside of the Nation State. That is a responsibility that comes with that common investment of our individual negative liberty that we invest in the Nation State for our self-protection.

The negative liberty of war, that is aggressive war, itself has multiple positive and negative aspects or rights. That is only partially represented by ‘Just War’ theory. The negative exercise of aggressive war is for conquest, teritorrial expansion and for self-indulgence of rulers of Nation States. The positive excercise of the negative liberty of war is in the self-protection of the Nation State via pre-emptive war where the survival of the Nation State is put at risk by not waging such war. The description of such wars and the rights and responsibilities Nation States have as our creation are all part of the Law of Nations.

In the US we have sub-National States which are given the right to organize a non-standing force known as a Citizen’s Militia. That is codified in Article 1, Section 10, so that the individual sub-National States are barred from raising armies and navies except when the National government cannot or will not respond to the threat of invasion or danger that does not brook delay. Then that State reclaims the negative liberty for warfare for itself to exercise on behalf of its Citizens. The sub-National State structure and the Nation State cannot take the negative liberty of warfare from individuals as it is part of the human right of warfare we are all born with.

When, as an individual, we find that savage humans who have reclaimed their negative liberty of warfare to attack us, as individuals, our full right of warfare returns to us as it is our positive right of survival and self-defense that cannot be divorced from us by our Nature, and that the only response when threatened by the threat of warfare against our persons is to responsd in kind and hold ourselves responsible to our agreed-upon law once that action is taken. Unlike savages we agree to put down the weapons of war once we have defended ourselves, and be held accountable. We may still practice with those self-same weapons as the right of self-defense is the positive liberty of warfare that we cannot hand to any Nation State as we are responsible for our own self-protection.

From that understanding Israel, as a Nation State has the right of any Nation State to wage war against those individuals who have reverted to their savage, Natural state of being.

Those who have not done so and see their fellow man revert to savages must seek higher authority to put them to an end, flee from them or, if they are caught up in such savage actions, do their best to thwart or end them so as to protect themselves and their society via lawful means and agreement.

Those who sit placidly by and do *nothing* are as culpable as those attacking via savage means absent the Nation State as they see no reason to act in a civilized manner. The rights and liberties of war come with responsibilities not only at the Nation State level but at the level of each and every individual. Those that do not run, do not seek the shelter of accountable Nation State means, who do not seek to put an end to savage humans and their war activities are as guilty as those waging such savage war as they see no reason to act to stop such savagery. Only if you are caught unarmed and confined can you be given leeway, or if loved ones you hold dear are similarly held… yet escape and getting cognizant and accountable authorities to end such savagery must be your top and main goal.

By not acting in a civilized fashion and having no legal and accountable Nation or State structure that can put an end to such savage humans, those who live in such areas by living in them and not seeking to construct such accountable authorities are as culpable as those attacking as they are not trying to end savage activities and hold those individuals accountable. All that takes is banding together, forming a code of fighting in accordance with well understood principles of warfare, putting on uniform, holding yourself accountable to that structure not only internally but through external intercourse with other States and Nations, and then fighting to put down and end savagery around you.

That is war to create a Nation State and hold yourself accountable to agreed-upon organs and authority.

When Palestinians actually start doing those things to end the savages in HAMAS, Fatah, and those Hezbollah and al Qaeda organizers in their lands, then they will have taken a positive step towards self-control and accountability by putting an end to savagery. So far that hasn’t happened. And those sitting around and doing *nothing* in those territories are endorsing the current state of affairs by the positive decision to do *nothing*. And that is as uncivilized as those waging savage war and indicates that they prefer a state of savagery to any other condition.

Jan 12, 2009 - 2:38 am 62. Jeff Hunziker:

US taxpayers should not support a racist, apartheid government such as Israel. If it wasn’t for the millions of dollars showered on our congressmen by AIPAC, we wouldn’t.

Jan 12, 2009 - 4:04 am 63. Eli Bernstein:

Matt,

Please drop me a note at eli.bernstein@gmail.com and I’ll arrange to debate this issue with you on my blog.

As for your attempt to score cheap points by name calling… While you may have read more manuals of military warfare than I did, rest assured that I have a better understanding of middle eastern politics than you (based on some of your comments)… so let’s stick to the topic debated.

I don’t think any war (or indeed action) can be be said to be definitely right or wrong… but I do believe this is as close to classic just war as any we’ve seen.

Anyway, drop me a note and let us continue this dialogue. After all, that is one of the great advantages we have living in a democracy.

BTW, I am open to any other feedback at that address.

Ciao

Eli

Jan 12, 2009 - 4:24 am 64. Sylvie:

To cedarford @ 28: How many ‘innocent Palestinians’ [!]have been killed in Gaza? Almost 900 today out of a million and a half who voted unanimously for HAMAS, an Iranian-backed ‘Taliban-style’ regime to govern them and they who also agreed that Violence should continue against Israel … and these people are paying the price of their foolishness today. By the same token how many Israelis have been killed by Hamas Terror from Eight Years of qassams, rockets and mortar fire hurled upon them even after Israel turned over the whole of Gaza to these Terrorists?… simply because Israel has built for its citizens Shelters in kindergartens, Schools, homes and along the roadside of those areas in the south found to be most affected by Hamas Terror. Rather different to an entity such as Hamas who do not really care about their people as much simply because there are so many of them around that when one dies another hundred will be ready to take his place. Consequently, Hamas couldn’t care less about their peoples’ suffering, because Hamas is acting upon Orders from Iran which is what really matters. Appropriately then one might even say that Israel is fighting a War against a Proxy of Iran and the sooner the civilised world acknowledges this fact, the better it would be.

Jan 12, 2009 - 5:17 am 65. Sylvie:

To CEDAFORD @ 28… Sorry , but my reply to you is # 64.

Jan 12, 2009 - 5:26 am 66. cedarford:

Sylvie –
Innocence and guilt in war are largely irrelevant concepts. So are the fans of the various sides involved holding up their “who suffered the most” tally sheets. Strict proportionality, despite Lefties almost fetishizing it as an iron limit on what a war can do, is also crap.
War is needed for many reasons, some open to debate, but aside from Lefties and certain Muslim culprits, no one says that war is unacceptable if one side launches ordnance at the other side and in turn actions, as much as necessary, are taken to make it stop.
Again, there is no such thing as “an innocent enemy civilian” nor a “guilty guy doing military service for his side”.
************************
myth buster:
Legally speaking, Israel has not killed a single civilian. Hamas bears sole responsibility for all civilian casualties because they stand guilty of using human shields. If you hold a hostage and a police sniper shoots at you and kills the hostage, you are the murderer, not the police sniper.

Certain cops have tried pushing that concept, along with fascist prosecutors and those in the public that worship armed government employees. But they haven’t gotten very far with claims to make all state-sponsored violence free of guilt if agents foul up, accidents happen – for very good reasons. Limited immunity for those in good faith pursuit of their public safety duty makes sense. But such laws seek to make public employees free of culpability.
And we have ample court decisions that have held that the police sniper that shoots the wrong person does expose his/her agency to tort damages, even criminal negligence. Ruby Ridge was a good example of cops asserting they should face no repercussions for starting a clusterf*ck and killing two univolved civilians – and the jury and the courts properly slapping the butchers good…
Or a cop that screwed up in Boston and killed a girl with a rubber shot who tried blaming it on “rowdy BC students” who should pay the girl’s parents…no go.
The claim of freedom of armed government employees from responsibility has also been made in car chases, and high speed accidents with the verdicts generally going against cops deflecting their errors, their culpability onto “perps”.
Cop running a speeder off the road and onto a sidewalk, killing an elderly man? The cop was dead meat when the lawyers asked him why he was chasing the speeder in the first place could it be officer, that it was society having laws seeking to protect themselves from speeders losing control and running up on sidewalks killing old men? And the police made the argument about a quarreling public housing couple with another domestic dispute “being at fault” for a cop car speeding to the scene running a red light and T-boning a car at the intersection – killing a single mom and 3 of her kids. The courts ruled that was absurd. Blame a couple arguing about who pays the cable TV bill with “murdering” 4 people 3 miles away from their apartment..

The cops and various fascist backers of “our heroes are never at fault” will of course keep trying. They have had a few cases where they did get the drunk or speeder in hot pursuit nailed with blame for what cops chasing did..but usually some hapless thug with a long criminal record and no good lawyer to defend them…and even then, the cops rightly lose the tort claims rather than them being deflected on some penniless thug.

Jan 12, 2009 - 6:16 am 67. Knights13:

“Obviously not all Muslims are militant extremists, correct? ”

Yeah, makes you wonder the way some people talk about muslims here. I mean there are like half a billion muslims just around that area. If they were all extreme then Israel would run out of bullets, ammo and all the other stuff.

Jan 12, 2009 - 7:57 am 68. Pat J:

Any war is immoral. This one is no exception.

Jan 12, 2009 - 9:40 am 69. Bilgeman:

#48 Kirk:

“Bilgeman (#44), you might want to read the article, or at least skim it, before making a lengthy comment. ”

Uhh, fella…I DID read it.

“You clearly think Bernstein is judging the Gaza War immoral, when in fact he concludes the opposite.”

No, I clearly do NOT think that the gentleman has concluded that the Gaza War is immoral.

My point, which I suspect you entirely missed, is that such pronouncements are irrelevant, inappropriate, and certainly premature before the war is won.

Now as a tool of propaganda and recruitment for one’s own side, such declarations of morality may have SOME utility, but in this specific case, I don’t think that the residents of Ashkelon need a philosophical verdict of the righteousness of the cause before mobilizing to put the boot into Hamas’s moochie…you?

On the negative side, by engaging in this line of thought, one opens the debate to counter-arguments, which are tantamount to giving the enemy a platform from which to broadcast HIS propaganda.

Again, in this specific instance, with Western MSM and audiences being so slavishly addicted to notions of “fairness” to an almost fetishistic degree, the absolute hogwash that Hamas spouts is elevated,(unjustly), to a level where the dullards among us can be persuaded by the more intelligent, (and anti-semitic) actors, to be susceptible to their bunk.

In anything resembling reality, Hamas’ propaganda would be exposed for the twaddle that it is, and they and their whining would be dismissed out of hand…

Jan 12, 2009 - 1:07 pm 70. John:

Hi,
I think many north American see the world through FOX vision, that is sad. a little bit left to say 876 Israeli women and children died and one Palestinian woman killed by Israeli armi, for those who need some history, I am telling them The Arab in Palestine are Christian and some of them are Muslims, the Jewish are none. Simply, FOX and CNN can not give real news because the hidden agenda.
If Hamas doing wrong by killing by their tanks and jets then please, do not hide Israeli armi that kill many children in Palestine with their stone and creating terror and instability in this world. JUST to give poor and mislead Americans by the wrong media in US that the reality, Isreali armi is not respected international low.
It is time to pray for all civilians in Israel and Palestine, to support the righteousness and to use the logic.
John

Jan 12, 2009 - 4:51 pm 71. Neo Coneli:

Wow… John. Can you give some of whatever you are on?

Jan 12, 2009 - 5:39 pm 72. Paul:

I agree with you Pat J that any war is immoral. and here innocents are killed with out even fight this is actually not a war this is just an attack

Jan 13, 2009 - 12:02 am 73. cedarford:

Pat J:
Any war is immoral. This one is no exception.

A dumb blanket statement.

War is simply part of the human condition. Applied when diplomacy and law is not agreed to by all parties. Existing as normal and frequent even when tribes of the same people grow and then split into factions a thousand miles from any foreign competitor, when even abundant unexploited resources exist (Hawaii 800 AD – 1780)

War is neither good nor bad by it’s nature. It can be necessary and justified. It can be judged unjustified – from a failure to do certain things that would have prevented a war, a war that did more harm than good. But warfare is natural in all animals as territorial limits are enforced, rivals met in competition. And organized war in all animals that live social groups, from ants upwards, is natural.

War is no more immoral than eating or reproducing or agreeing to live in a social order regulated by rulers and law.

*****************
John – It is time to pray for all civilians in Israel and Palestine, to support the righteousness and to use the logic.

There is no such thing as comprehensive innocence of civilians and collective guilt of men doing duty to defend them.
Saying we should pray for civilians but not young men who defend them is stupid.
Saying that we should pray for only good things to happen to enemy civilians while we pray for the demise of enemy civilians strong enough, healthy enough, and smart enough to defend & fight for their king that they are conscripted or volunteer to be soldiers or cops – is also stupid.

Jan 13, 2009 - 12:36 am 74. Maverick:

It’s useless to try and label wars with an illegitimate nation when they don’t follows rules of any sort, just the one they will abide by. In Hamas case it doesn’t matter if their illegitimate or not. Once Israel retaliates, they use the legitimacy of the United Nations and the International Red Cross to have Israel condemn by the world. Their cries for humanitarian aid makes them the victim, because we all know they only want the humanitarian aid for the innocent civilians and not themselves. Hamas has their own form of terrorist politics which time and time makes them look like the underdog and Israel as the terrible aggressor who only wants to kill innocent civilians. Hamas is uncontrollable. They’re in a world of their own reliving over and over the day of their ancestors and not moving into the next day or year with any sense of changes that will do their people good. It’s doesn’t matter how many civilians support Hamas. Not enough has objected to Hamas to make an impact in the way they operate as a governing body. Not all civilians object to Hamas stashing weapons in their home. Not all civilians want Hamas to stop. As long as Hamas has the support of the people, they will continue to attack Israel and whoever they fell needs killing. No one can grant civilians immunity when Hamas looks actually as the civilians do. In reality, you can say there are no innocent civilians, until you can tell the difference between Hamas and an innocent civilian.

Jan 13, 2009 - 2:29 pm 75. DLAW:

There is no greater humanitarian diaster than than the murder of a corralled people. Only those whose martial experience is limited to computer games can root for the slaughter of innocents,regardless of their religious persuasion.
Is this another Rwanda like genocide in making ?

Jan 13, 2009 - 4:43 pm 76. Bilgeman:

#75 DLAW:

“Is this another Rwanda like genocide in making ?”

No.

And near as I recall, the Tutsi didn’t start anything, much less give provocation by firing over 7000 rockets at the Hutu.

Not even CLOSE, bub.

No one gave much of a hoot about THAT naked and unprovoked mass-murder,of 800,000 people mind you, but here you whine about a terrorist organization with an exterminationist charter getting it’s rightful comeuppance, and the inescapable collateral casualties inherent in modern air-ground warfare in an urban terrain, totalling less than a thousand as “the murder of a coralled people”.

Jan 13, 2009 - 5:41 pm 77. Paul:

Yes DLAW this looks liks that

Jan 13, 2009 - 6:43 pm 78. DLAW:

Bilgeman:

My sympathies and concern also extend to the reservists who have to go to the war zone at the risk of grave bodily harm and perhaps lasting Post Traumatic Stress Disoder(PTSD).
You dismiss shattered lives on either side as “collateral damage.” There are no victors,only a lot of psychologically disabled survivors.
You obviously have never been in a combat zone and do not know the horrors of war.

Jan 14, 2009 - 4:32 am 79. Pegasus:

I can see the logic to all of this and thank you for pointing all this out (esp UN Charter 51). I have no support for Hamas and never have had. I am amazed that people forget that this was the Hamas which bombed the Oslo Accords out of existence by tipping the vote in favour of Netenyahu on that crucial election after Rabin’s death and that took over Gaza by massacring Fatah members. They have always opposed peace and will always oppose peace. People who bang on about Hamas being democratically elected forget that the Israeli Govt is also democractically elected. If Hamas are to be taken seriously then so is the Israeli Govt. Likewise, while it is true that the blockade on Gaza has meant the withdrawal has been meaningless, they forget that that blockade is there because a) because of the missiles and b) because Hamas continues to refuse to recognise Israel’s right to exist or hold by previous agreements made between the PA and Israel. Israel has always made these conditions of talks and a lifting of the blockade, but Hamas still refuses. The idea that Israel should not put these conditions to Hamas should be compared to those put by the British on Sinn Fein/the IRA before it would agree to peace talks. That would be an interesting comparison to make.

But there is one thing I think is tricky. Given the situation on the ground for the Palestinian people – the ordinary Palestinian people as opposed to Hamas – what are they to do as they remain ‘an illegitimate state’ partly but not entirely for their own fault (one must admit that Israeli policy towards the Palestinians during the Bush years has not been terrific)? While the use of violence has always been wrong this is a shattered people. If we want to help the situation we need to find a way of empowering the Palestinians to get on their feet and restore their dignity rather than just on trying to destroy Hamas. There is a bigger process to be gone through here.

So no sympathy for Hamas, but how do we help the 86% of Palestinians who also have no support for Hamas? In the end one solves the problem of one side by solving that of the other.

Any thoughts?

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:26 am 80. Pat J:

#73-

Cedarford, in nature two male animals usually fight over dominance of the herd. It is rarely a fight to the death. And I’d like to think mankind is a little further up in the evolutionary scale over bees and ants.

I for one long for the day when war is obsolete. Instead of spending billions of dollars on bombs, we should be spending billions of dollars on ways to improve the human condition.

Jan 14, 2009 - 12:31 pm 81. Bilgeman:

#78 DLAW:

“You obviously have never been in a combat zone and do not know the horrors of war.”

Don’t presume, pal. You don’t know me.

Jan 14, 2009 - 12:51 pm 82. Bruce Graeme:

“The current military action comes at the end of a six-month truce which was broken by Hamas.”

Top 5 Lies About Israel’s Assault on Gaza by Jeremy R. Hammond

Lie #2) Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks.

Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with. From the beginning, it announced a “special security zone” within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon. In other words, Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals attempting to reach their own land in direct violation of not only the cease-fire but international law.

Despite shooting incidents, including ones resulting in Palestinians getting injured, Hamas still held to the cease-fire from the time it went into effect on June 19 until Israel effectively ended the truce on November 4 by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others.

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/articles/2009/01/03/hammond_top-5-lies-about-israels-assault-on-gaza.html.

Jan 14, 2009 - 1:22 pm 83. shaun Cassidy:

Israel is the Hitler’s best student

Jan 14, 2009 - 1:55 pm 84. shaun Cassidy:

So Bruce thats your justification of killing 1000 innocents? Is there any justification of this crime?

Jan 14, 2009 - 1:56 pm 85. Bilgeman:

#82 Bruce Graeme:

Just out of curiosity, did you read the comment thread of this article you linked to?

Hammond,the author of the piece, gets “taken to the woodshed” pretty thoroughly by his commentariat…and that’s just on the first page!

Thanks for the linky, though…these guys are eviscerating the terrorists’ stooge.

Jan 14, 2009 - 5:37 pm 86. Bruce Graeme:

@ Bilgeman:

We are told by the mainstream media in the U.S. that Hamas broke the half-year truce agreed upon in June and refused to extend it past the December expiration date. Whether or not the truce was adhered to in its first four months is a question of interpretation rather than fact. Israelis will tell you that the Palestinians did, in fact, launch some Qassams into Israel. True. Palestinians will tell you that Israel did not, in fact, live up to its side of the bargain and continued, even intensified, the siege of Gaza, stopping the electricity, water, fuel, food and medicines crucial for decent survival. True again. But no one denies that on November 4th Israel carried out an incursion into Gaza, killing 7 Palestinians and setting off the renewal of violence – Qassam launchings into Israel by Hamas and Israeli
killings of Palestinians in Gaza – that was fully in place by the time the truce expired.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090126/biletzki?rel=hpbox

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:33 am 87. Cybergeezer:

Where does this civilian casualty count come from? If you’re believing the media’s count, you’re probably wrong. They are reporting from a laptop somewhere in New York, Los Angeles, or London. And if they were so astute in determining civilians from the combatants, they should be IN Gaza keeping the civilians from harm.
Numbers from other sources, such as Palestinians, you can bet are inflated and wrong.
These pagans do not care about civilian casualties, in fact that is part of their “psychological” warfare. This is cheap news.

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:07 am 88. ISSA:

SORIE ITS A JEWISH SITE

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:35 am 89. ThinkingPerson:

Israel has every right to defend itself. Hamas is hoping to drive up the casualties by hiding in schools and hospitals. If you believe differently, MSDNC has a correspondent job with your name on it. Defending Hamas is defending terrorism.

Jan 15, 2009 - 12:10 pm 90. Bilgeman:

#86 Bruce Graeme:

” Palestinians will tell you that Israel did not, in fact, live up to its side of the bargain and continued, even intensified, the siege of Gaza, stopping the electricity, water, fuel, food and medicines crucial for decent survival.”

I don’t buy the Palestinians’ case.
Look, Bruce, imposing an embargo on the energy and material “crucial for decent survival”,(that is SUCH a cute phrase…a real work of PR art), is certainly not tantamount to the breaking of a cease-fire/truce.
It’s an embargo, see? And even as judicious and peace-loving a lot as the United Nations imposes embargos,(kind of…in a half-assed, backsliding kind of way), when it sees fit.

“But no one denies that on November 4th Israel carried out an incursion into Gaza, killing 7 Palestinians and setting off the renewal of violence.”

Boy, Hamas’ talking points have sure gotten better over the years…did they hire some ex Hill & Knowlton staffers to write up their balderdash?

Once again, let me focus on your use of the phrase: “setting off the renewal of violence”.

That only works if you hold that Hamas’ firing of rockets into Israeli towns, (which only that stooge Hammond denies), was NOT violence.

Fact: Israel traded Land for Peace.

Did the removeal, at gunpoint, of the Israeli Gaza settlers by the IDF a few years ago slip your mind?

Fact: Israel did not receive Peace for the Land it ceded to Fatah.

Hamas came to power and “renewed the cycle of violence” by firing rockets into Israel.

Fact: There is no obligation to heat, clothe, feed and doctor to the population of a state whose inhabitants are dedicated to your extermination.

To take your line of argument about Israel denying Hamas that which is “crucial to a decent life” is to argue for nothing more noble than a mugger or a car-jacker.

“Your Honor, I needed a Porsche, a Rolex and a wad of cash…these were crucial to my leading a decent life. I was, therefore, justified in sticking the muzzle of my revolver into his nostril and blowing his brains out for these things.”

Try again, Bruce.

Jan 15, 2009 - 3:31 pm 91. peacebunny:

They were not hiding in the UN compound hit by phosphorous today. They were not in hiding in the school hit last week or the UN trucks.
The numbers of civilian casualties may well be over-estimated or it may be under-estimated, without independent verification who can tell. How can ‘they’ keep civilians from harm if journalists are not allowed into Gaza and what give Israel the right to prevent entry anyway?

Bet you get ignored 86 Bruce. Posters will continue to say 8 years of unbroken attacks by Hamas or some such nonsense.
A working ceasefire despite the sanctions that should have been removed? Offers of a 10 year ceasefire? That almost recognition! Peace? Intolerable! Before anyone notices, bomb them and kill a few, that will do the trick and do it quick, we have election coming up.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:34 pm 92. DLAW:

#90 Bilgeman:
“Fact: Israel traded Land for Peace.”

But the trade offerings were flawed
Small pieces of disconnected land do not a country make.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:55 pm 93. Bilgeman:

#90 DLAW:

“But the trade offerings were flawed”

Boo-Effin’-hoo! Y’know, as I recall it, no-one asked Hamas’ opinion about a damned thing when the deal was being negotiated. And while Fatah was in power, shooting no rockets at Israel TMK, they had a remarkably quiet time in Gaza.

Are there any Palis being bombed by the IDF over in the West Bank, where Fatah rules?

No.

“Small pieces of disconnected land do not a country make.”

Tell me something, ace. Do you have your eyes open when you type your twaddle, or do you, like, use “The Force”?

Gaza? Could be Monte Carlo. Could be Hong Kong. Could be San Marino.
Heck…they could be akin to Bahrain, and be the “Atlantic City” for Egyptians and Jordanians like Bahrain is the “Las Vegas” for the Saudis.
(Places they go to do things that they wouldn’t or couldn’t do at home).

Instead they want to be Haiti, (which is unfair to Haiti…no Haitian in his right mind would move to Gaza.)

Jan 15, 2009 - 6:51 pm 94. DLAW:

Bilgeman:

Please remain civil.

I was referring to the West Bank land deal.

If the Chinese had put a siege around Hong Kong it would have been another Gaza.

The Palis are genetically the same as the Shepardic Jews

Jan 16, 2009 - 4:56 am 95. Bilgeman:

#94 DLAW:
“I was referring to the West Bank land deal.”

Sure you were. The thread is about Gaza, the IDF is bombing Hamas in Gaza, and out of the blue, you decide to start yakking about the West Bank?
Suuuure.

“Please remain civil.”
My civility will remain in direct proportion to your honesty.
Seriously, chappie, I don’t know what kind of drooling dirt-merchants you’re used to talking to,(liberal arts majors?), but this ain’t MY first rodeo, see?

“The Palis are genetically the same as the Shepardic Jews”
Which means….what?
Germans are genetically the same as Frenchmen. That didn’t stop Deutschland from launching two wars against France in the 20th century, or the French, (ahem), Empire from starting a war against Prussia in 1870.

Is that “The Force” speaking to me through your keyboard again?
Or are we back on your Hutu/Tutsi Rwanda genocide schtick again?

Jan 16, 2009 - 5:15 pm 96. Truthwillprevail:

With the exception of the few – never read so much rubbish in my life as the above.

Jan 17, 2009 - 5:30 am 97. furious_a:

Thinking about what Hamas has done for the people of Gaza reminds me of the following:

Q: Why are there no Arab characters on Star Trek?
A: Because it’s set in the future.

Hamas fires its rockets from among civilians, then hides among them to ensure civilian casualties when retaliation comes, then parades the bodies like the bloody shirt. They’re beyond cowards, they’re death cult zombies who murder their wives and children before taking their own useless lives. All for the joys of a pornographic afterlife ruled by a bloodthirsty god. The innnocent blood over which such as cedardford and DLAW lament is on Hamas’ hands — this is the way they have chosen.

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us….When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.
–Golda Meir

Jan 17, 2009 - 7:10 am 98. furious_a:

DLAW:

Please, Hong Kong is populated by a civilized, industrious people (their only natural resource, really, not unlike Israel). They survived a pretty bloody Japanese occupation and emerged one of the world’s vibrant cities.

Gaza may be populated by some wonderful people, but their leaders are savages intent on leading their people back to the Stone Age, judging from the rubble piling up in Gaza city. There’s no comparison to Hong Kong.

But, hey, sticking to the region…

…the Arab states laid seige to Israel in 1947, not raising it (well, typical of Arab Armies the Israelis raised it for them) until after the Yom Kippur War. Israel turned out like Israel.

Try again.

Jan 17, 2009 - 7:23 am 99. georgiebhoy:

Hong Kong would not have survived if China had blockaded the territory so yes not a good comparison. The deliberate and systematic delay of trucks meant that perishable produce was worthless when finally allowed out of Gaza. Guess what happened to those suppliers? The deliberate destruction of the power station during the last conflict meant relying on Israel for power which could be cut off at a whim. Those that criticise the Palestinians for not building a vibrant economy should look at the reality of the situation and imagine the difficulties.

Jan 18, 2009 - 5:24 am 100. FaySet:

After this so-called war (the war is between two forces), the idea of Peace for Land has completely ceased to exist. By this savage act Israel has arousing great anger in the Arab and Muslim world: hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Then Israel makes impossible its peaceful integration in the region, because by its act it wants dominance, not peaceful coexistence.
There are no objectives of this criminal act because how do you explain its results? All of Martyrs are civil and 50 per cent of whom are children. In the old days, Jewish people had called the killers of prophets and now they are the killers of children.

Jan 23, 2009 - 12:58 pm

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