34 Comments

1. 11B40:

Greetings:

1) Re: Air Power – Back in my Army days of the late ’60s, my favorite Platoon Sergeant told me the following:

There’s a statue of an infantryman with his back pack and bayoneted weapon in the infantry training center at Fort Dix, NJ. The name of the statue is “The Ultimate Weapon.” In this business, you don’t have nothin’ till some 20 year old with a long rifle tells you you have it.

2) Re: Density – my concern here is with the propaganda aspect of this. I don’t know if there is confusion between the Gaza and Gaza City, but the Gaza certainly doesn’t appear very dense to me. Even Gaza City is no Manhattan or Mumbai. I fear that “density” is being used to imply the impossibility of avoiding civilian casualties and we both know who would benefit from that. I can certainly agree that the Gaza is more dense than South Lebanon.

Jan 12, 2009 - 10:39 am 2. SAF:

It appears they did learn. Nice piece.

Jan 12, 2009 - 10:43 am 3. Anton:

It looks like the IDF has finally learned to cover it’s flanks and rear against Hamas’ powerful allies (MSM, UN and the Euros). Watching this play out is intriguing, the military side is almost like a pro-forma act that the real media war is being fought as a reflection of.

Hamas had to know that they would have no chance of winning a military conflict when the final straw snapped Israeli patience. Obviously they were banking on the UN and MSM to pull their bacon out of the fire before the IDF ground them down.

It seems that the Israelis have taken the attitude of the Rusiians, if not their tactics, the UN, MSM and Euroweenies howl about disproportionality and the IDF just gets on with it’s business. I am left to wonder what will last the longest; the Israeli resolve or Hamas’ faith in the International Community’s ability to stop this action before a real result is put in place.

I hope that they have swung a deal (if that is really possible) with Fatah, the IDF crushes Hamas and leaves the clean-up to Fatah. Nobody cares if Palis kill Palis so the news crews will all go home and then Israel is back to dealing with only one terrorist organization on it’s southern flank.

Jan 12, 2009 - 11:09 am 4. Mark Fradl:

I’m curious if this is true:

In May Hamas launched 149 rocket attacks. In the first part of June, before the ceasefire, 87 missiles launched. After the ceasefire, for the next 4 1/2 months a total of 15 rockets were fired – injuring no Israelis – and Israel admits they were not fired by Hamas. In early November Israeli troops stage a raid and launch what they claim was a pre-emptive strike against Hamas, breaking the ceasefire. Then Hamas let the ceasefire expire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

If this is the case, then 2 or 3 homemade rockets a month landing in the desert doesn’t seem like the sort of threat that justifies invasion and war, especially when the Hamas prime minister – according to Haaretz – in September said Hamas was open to a 2-state solution involving a return to 1967 borders.

Other views?

Jan 12, 2009 - 12:53 pm 5. RV:

The real answer to whether Israel actually wants safety and peace will come after the invasion reaches a close. At that point, Hamas will be greatly reduced in both size, influence, and capability, but if Israel does nothing to restore the infrastructure that they destroyed, as well as lift the entire blockade they have around the Strip, then Israel will again be responsible for creating a horrible, poverty stricken environment which causes massive amounts of resentment and hatred.

Yes, Israel had to respond to the rocket attacks, I firmly believe that. But Palenstinians had to react to being denied all the basic resources that a people need for life, such as medical supplies, food and water.

Jan 12, 2009 - 1:12 pm 6. Anonymous:

RV; Israel left behind a billion dollar a year greenhouse industry when they withdrew. The Gazans destroyed it lock, stock and barrel. They can’t find the time to be the victims of Dirty Joooish opression if they have to go to work every day (plus it cuts into rocket making/launching time, as well as quality parenting time watching the Suicide Bomber Street .

Jan 12, 2009 - 2:35 pm 7. Evil Pundit:

In 2006 the mainstream media had more credibility and greater resources than they do in 2009.

Thus at least one of Israel’s enemies is in a weaker position today than during the war against Hezbollah.

Jan 12, 2009 - 3:02 pm 8. Tom Holsinger:

I have read criticism of Israel not having strategic objectives here, or having the wrong ones, but the critics overlook the bloody obvious – Israel is a democracy and had to do something about the rocket attacks. The Israeli government simply could not just let the attacks continue.

Sometimes the people of a democracy need a bloody lesson in the realties of their power, just as their opponents do. The people of Israel, as a whole, clearly do not have the opinion that rocket attacks from Gaza will continue until Hamas is exterminated there. They seem to think that a less drastic outcome will solve the problem.

The critics here likewise seem to think the Israeli government intends a lesser objective than the extermination of Hamas in Gaza, but that this cannot be effective (and I agree with them). But perhaps the Israeli people need to have that rubbed in their face the hard way before they will demand that their government use whatever degree of force is required to eliminate Hamas.

The same might also be true of public opinion in other countries.

Jan 12, 2009 - 4:13 pm 9. Mark Fradl:

Golly Tom, hopefully the Israeli people will also hold their government accountable for helping to create Hamas, hhhmm?

Ron Paul, although there are plenty more links to choose from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6vMAoFwf4

By the way, anytime you think you can sum up a remarkably complex conflict with one sentence – “the critics overlook the bloody obvious – Israel is a democracy and had to do something about the rocket attacks.” – think again. far, far more to it than that.

Jan 12, 2009 - 5:23 pm 10. Battlecat:

I hope, most importantly, that Israel has learned to finish the war. No truce. No ceasefire. No international arbitration. Only the absolute victory over the Islamo-fascists. Finish off Hamas once and for all.

Jan 12, 2009 - 5:25 pm 11. uburoisc:

Mark the Hamas hand-wringer has arrived to blame Israel, right on time. Who “created” Hamas, well, the Jews did, of course. For guys like Mark, there is always far, far more to it that (I think it was Chesterton who said that complexity is the last refuge of a scoundrel). The a**holes on the far left and right will twist events in any direction, so long as the same outcome is arrived at: the Jews made the Arabs do it, the Jews enflamed the whole region and are now paying for their arrogance and perfidy. Just as the collapse of the Soviet Union left a thousand academic careers in tatters, the Israel haters will be eating their words for a long time to come; but for now they imagine the wind is at their back, and they are speaking truth to power. Ron Paul, why doesn’t that surprise me, Mark. Maybe you can join Cedarford at The New American.

You know, Mark, I wish someone would spend their time launching rockets at your house day and night. Oh, and maybe you are really too credulous to know this, but all the “ceasefire” ever was between Israel and Hamas was a period during which Hamas smuggled in as much ordinace as they possibly could. Nobody except stupid Jews for Peace types thought otherwise. Oh, yeah, Hamas is definately a viable partner in peace, my God you are a fool.

Jan 12, 2009 - 6:41 pm 12. Utopia Parkway:

Mark,

elder of zion keeps a series of rocket calendars showing how many rockets have been fired into Israel on a daily basis. See rocket calendars The numbers of rockets fired during between June and Nov seem to be more than 15 but less than 30. He also keeps track of mortars and there were mortar shells fired into Israel during that period.

One of the terms of the cease-fire was that Hamas wouldn’t attempt to re-arm during the period. They clearly violated that every day.

Since Cast Lead began there have been a number of Israeli deaths from rocket fire even though there were relatively few before that. The reason isn’t that there is a greater number of rockets being fired, there isn’t. The rockets are going farther but I think that’s only secondary. The reason is that Hamas has been firing Grad and Katyushas. These rockets have larger warheads than the Kassam rockets and therefore have a greater killing radius. They also have ball bearings in the warheads that scatter shrapnel over a wider area. Needless to say the Grads and Katyushas aren’t “homemde.”

After Hamas unilaterally abrogated the cease-fire on Dec 19 they started to fire increasing numbers of rockets into Israel. This is after years of firing rockets into Israel. The cease-fire was a test, of both sides I suppose. Israel has obviously decided that Enough is Enough and they won’t tolerate any rocket fire into their country anymore. If I was Israeli, I wouldn’t vote for politicians whose party had talked tough but hadn’t done anything significant to protect my country from rocket attacks.

Jan 12, 2009 - 8:29 pm 13. Pete:

My god it is right wing heaven here!

When are you guys going to learn some history not from hollywood?

Israel pursued just as cowardly terrorist attacks as those they now accuse, those attrocities were committed by future Israelis leaders in the Stern Gang and Irgun.

Israel has cornered and persecuted the Palestinians for decades and so what sort of response would you expect from a cornered animal?

If this was you in the US so cornered you would be fighting just as hard and just the same.

Personally I hope a couple of hundred Israelis soldiers are killed as it is the only way Israel will sit up and take notice and stop this unequal slaughter

Jan 13, 2009 - 12:07 am 14. gboisjo:

Pete and Mark I have an idea. Why don’t you two get together, give each other a big hug and do what any good jew hater would do. Go to Palistine and lend a hand. This unequal slaughter must stop and I think you two could help make a difference. Besides that look at the message you would be sending the muslim world if two Christians (I presume your christians) were to go to Palistine and help make suicide vest for martyrs. You two might be instrumental in bringing the two worlds of Islam and Christianity closer to together like one big happy family. You jerks….

Jan 13, 2009 - 2:54 am 15. Danny:

#13, really? How many cafes did the Irgun blow up? Or old people in holiday parties? or buses? I notice that Hamas fires rockets timed to coincide with school start/end and breaks at schools day in day out and Israel hits one school and the UN and the MSM throws a hissy fit.

#9, Israel didn’t “create” Hamas, Hamas is the Palestinian wing of the Muslim brotherhood. What Israel did was focus on it’s main enemy – the PLO – at the expense of dealing with the then minor threat. Hamas only became a real player after the leadership hooked with Hizbollah during their year in South Lebanon in 1992-1993. But hey who cares about facts?

Jan 13, 2009 - 3:00 am 16. suztours:

When thinking of why Israel is better prepared and better trained for the Gaza Cast Lead operation (that for the incursion into Lebanon in 2006), one name comes to mind: GABI ASHKENAZI, the Chief of Staff of the IDF. Since obtaining that position, he has made TRAINING for battle his #1 objective – and for obvious good reason. We thank him for his commitment to the IDF and to the State of Israel.

To Mark – “Utopia Parkway” has answered your comment very well… I’ll just add that those Katyushas & Grads come from Iran by way of the Egypt through the tunnels in Rafiah (from the Egyptian side to the Gazan side). And it doesn’t matter about the number of rockets and/or mortars fired during the so-called “cease fire” (which we in Israel use as a crossword puzzle joke: according to (insert your favorite terror group, in this case HAMAS), what’s a 6-letter word for “cease fire”? That’s easy – “RE-LOAD”!)… the point is that about 8000 missiles/mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israel over the past 8 years… fewer prior to August 2005, when Jews lived in Gush Katif in the south and the few communities in the north of Gaza (Hamas today uses the remains of Dugit and Alei Sinai, for instance, as staging areas for firing into Ashkelon and Ashdod).

My mother was in England during WWII and experienced the “buzz bombs” – in a similar way, the people of southern Israel have no idea when or where these missiles/mortars will fall… the fear down there is palpable… Any responsible goverment would do all it could to not only defend its citizens but make sure that sort of attack ceases to occur.

Jan 13, 2009 - 3:14 am 17. Gary Ogletree:

I would like to see Israel do in Gaza City what the US and Iraqis did in Sadr City. I assume the Israelis noticed the mortar fire into Baghdad’s Green Zone went way way down. It always goes back to the will of the politicians to finish the job. The Israeli public doesn’t seem to be wavering one bit. Here’s hoping.

Jan 13, 2009 - 10:00 am 18. Naif Mabat:

Just trying to do my part to dispose of some of the garbage that’s accumalated here:

The Stern Gang and Irgun, terrorists though they were, concentrated most of their efforts on British military targets, not Arab civilian ones. This is something of a moot point, however – seeing as both organizations were disbanded over 60 years ago. You really have to wonder when people keep mentioning Stern and Irgun offhand like that. If they have any relavance to today’s debate, it’s in the fact that the one to disband them was none other than David Ben Gurion, the great uber-zionist himself. I’m still waiting for Mahmoud Abbas (or anyone else for that matter) to disband Hamas.

You also have to wonder when people mention border crossings as if Israel has some carved-in-stone obligation to keep them open at all costs. When they are not being attacked, Israelis have shown a readiness to open the crossings. Many actually did a lot of trade with Gazans before Hamas took over. Hamas proceeded to turn the crossings into security liabilities, ended trade with Israel, and destroyed the industry left behind by Israelis.

Israel would benefit from a stable economy in Gaza, but Hamas clearly would not. As long as Hamas is in charge, they will do everything they can to destroy Gaza’s economy and use border crossings for terrorist ends. You cannot insist that Israelis open these crossings on humanitarian grounds to the detriment of their own people’s humanitarian interests. It’s an especially ironic demand considering that Hamas has done everything possible to heighten the security risk of opening the crossings.

Incidentally, Egypt has also closed or severely limited use of its border with Gaza for extended periods. Yet this is not referred to as a “blockade”. You really have to wonder.

As for Israel “creating” Hamas: the only possible basis for this claim is that in the 1980s, Ahmed Yassin, Hamas’s founder, hosted a religious program of some kind on Israeli state television. I’m not sure when the program was cancelled, but it couldn’t have been much after Hamas’s creation. In any case, I don’t think the program was overtly political and I have yet to see anyone claim that his association with Israeli TV was in anyway linked to his later career as a full-time terrorist.

My own thoughts: the tragedy of Gaza is in part a result of Israeli security needs, part a result of endless UN welfare, part a result of Muslim Brotherhood brainwash and Iranian petro-weapons. In the end, though, the situation in Gaza is so far gone that just destroying Hamas will not be enough. Gaza is not like Lebanon or even the West Bank that have some semblance of ability to govern and support themselves. Some kind of large-scale international occupation government will be necessary, sort of like the allies did to Germany after WWII. It’s not really that difficult considering how small Gaza is, but the world will have to disabuse itself of so many illusions. Here’s hoping…

Jan 13, 2009 - 10:39 am 19. Pete:

The Stern Gang and Irgun, were both terrorist organisations, so now the US are choosing “nice” terrorists and “nasty” ones are they?

Israel has for decades occupied Palestinian territory, they have controlled most of the factors that assist life in the region, like the flow of water and the passage of goods.

Because the Palestinians have fought back against this in the only way they could, you condemn them.

So when the oppresssed jews fought back in Poland against the Nazis, they were wrong? No of course they weren’t, they were fighting for their existence.

What you fail to see in the US is that both sides are wrong and both sides need a firm hand.

As regards “jew hater” that is not the case, I would say balanced observer is more accurate.

I have been in the region and seen the conditions, as over 50% of US citizens do not hold a passport I would say go and have a look before you comment so inanely

Jan 13, 2009 - 12:23 pm 20. Anonymous:

4. Mark Fradl:
Jan 12, 2009 – 12:53 pm

One rocket a decade is justification to wipe them out. No country will survives if it allows other countries to groups to shoot at it ‘a little’.

Hamas is now the government of Gaza, so those people are reaping what they sowed. They are just lucky it’s the Israelis and not the Russians reaping now.

Jan 13, 2009 - 12:46 pm 21. Pete:

So Mark Fradl:

You have learned nothing from the genocide aimed at Jews, other than it is ok to “wipe out” others.

How very sad, Jews should understand more than any other race just how wrong that is

Jan 13, 2009 - 1:14 pm 22. Utopia Parkway:

“fought back the only way they could”

Man, you live in an alternate universe. What about a negotiated settlement? What happened to two countries living side by side in peace? Why exactly do they have to fight back when they can negotiate?

In 2000 the palestinians were in final status negotiations in the US for their country. Yes, FINAL STATUS NEGOTIATIONS. They could have said Yes and have had their country. But they said No.

In 2006 Hamas had a significant electoral victory. They were offered by the Quartet and the international community that if they accepted three demands the international community would recognize them and engage with them. The demands were to renounce violence, recognize Israel, and accept previously signed agreements between the PA and Israel. They refused. Can you imagine that? They were offered by the UN, USA, EU, and Russia that they would be recognized and they refused. I could understand if Hamas refused a deal with Israel but this deal was with four other entities. I guess they needed to fight back instead of get international recognition.

In 2007 Hamas took over Gaza violently. They killed about 350 palestinians. They threw members of Fatah off of roofs and shot others in the legs. Who were they fighting back against “the only way they could?” Not Israel.

After that Israel has been using economic sanctions as a way to pressure Hamas. I guess it’s working. Since Hamas has refused to recognize Israel they have no direct line of communication with Israel. They want things that only Israel can provide but they refuse to speak with Israel or compromise in any way. Violence is their only way of communication. Israel responds in kind.

It is the refusal of Hamas to accept the Quartet’s deal that has led to this war in Gaza.

Pete, you have a simple-minded and fundamentally immoral understanding of this conflict. You support violence of a terrorist organization against a democratic nation and you say that it’s the only thing they can do when that’s clearly false.

Jan 13, 2009 - 2:21 pm 23. Tom Holsinger:

Strategy Page reports that Israel is winning. IMO this concerns only the present. The real issue is whether Hamas is able to regain control of Gaza once the Israelis leave. Only a non-Hamas Palestinian faction, i.e., Fatah, can keep that from happening, and Fatah has shown that it is simply too corrupt and weak for that.

IMO Fatah elements which re-enter Gaza could suppress the Hamas remnants there only if supported by Israeli intelligence and airpower, which would entail open cooperation with Israel. Given the political indoctrination of Gaza civilians over the years, I don’t see how Fatah could politically survive such a close association with Israel. And, IMO, Fatah won’t risk losing its present control over the West Bank, i.e., its power base, to get control of Gaza back.

So I see Hamas regaining control of the Gaza Strip when Israel leaves. That may take a year or so. And, once Hamas controls Gaza again, it will resume rocket attacks on Israel as soon as it has the means. Which might take a few years, but they’ll do it.

This is whack-a-mole for Israel, with an endless supply of moles to whack.

Jan 13, 2009 - 4:21 pm 24. Maverick:

Once a nation depends on winning the minds of journalist as well as the enemy, then that nation is more concerned with what is reported then they are in winning the war. No nation should allow the media to accompany them into war because it then ceases to be a war to win, it becomes what the journalist wishes to report according to their point of view. A war is meant to be won. No two war are alike. The same rules of engagement can’t always be used time and time again. It’s all about retaliation. Without it, Hamas would come to see sending missiles into Israel the way most Europeans see it. Only the Israeli’s knows what it’s like to live with missiles coming in on a daily bases. The sympathizers of Hamas thinks Israel should accept it as a way of life and learn to live with it and don’t retaliate every time Hamas sends missiles into Israel. There has to be a reaction to every action of terrorist. Even if it means blowing up buildings to get their attention you mean business. If we follow what the international opinion is about war, then terrorist will get the upper hand every time. It’s because of the international opinion, that terrorist have operated for so long, especially in the international community.

Jan 13, 2009 - 5:21 pm 25. Pete:

Utopia Parkway:-

Unfortunately you only have a “johnny come lately” understanding of this conflict.

Israel now occupies much of the land that was once Palestinian, although international recognition of Palestine would help, it should be from the original borders laid down from the 50’s and not that narrow strip of land they now occupy.

You are unfortunately like most, unquestioning of the US, Israel and the situation in general.

It amazes me that on this site genocide of the Palestinians is freely bandied about, shame on you.

Both sides are wrong and both sides are hurting, until that is recognised there will be no settlement

Jan 14, 2009 - 2:02 am 26. Why comment?:

Pete,

Jews are not a “race”. They are all types of people who adhere to a religious belief. Your Freudian slip speaks volumes.

Jan 14, 2009 - 8:31 am 27. Pete:

Why comment:-

What rubbish, of course Jews are a race of people, just like Americans unless you feel that the only Jewish people are religous ones.

You look for racism where it is not present, I have always admired Isreal, but at the moment I feel they and their US supporters are acting immorally.

They are persecuting another group of people like they were persecuted, what next will they be looking for a “final solution” to rid themselves of the Palestinians.

It is disgusting and people like you continue to make excuses for this slaughter

Jan 14, 2009 - 10:07 am 28. Brian:

Oh and calling for killing jews in countries around the world is better?Thats the real advocates of genocide.These are Hamas supporters btw using freedom of expression to promote genocide against those who expressed support for Israel which is my right as a citizen in a democracy.I still refuse to call for the destruction of Palestinians since we,the jews, are above calls for genocide of others.Most Palestinians want no part of Hamas but are quite powerless to do anything about it.Stick that in your double-speak pipe and smoke it terrorist supporters.

Jan 14, 2009 - 10:50 pm 29. Mike:

19. Pete: – “As regards “jew hater” that is not the case, I would say balanced observer is more accurate.”

So you say.
——————————————
You liberals need to pay lots of taxes cause someone needs to pay for all the free stuff Obama promised me!

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:50 am 30. Brian:

Pete, you are simply a misguided fool! Israel has agreed to concessions time and time again and have been turned down again and again. THis is a simple FACT. The people of Palestine are in control of the situation. Stop firing mortars and rockets into Israel, recognize israel and stop supporting suicide attacks. Do this and Israel wouldnt be there with tanks right now. The simple fact is Israel did not create the situation, rather they are dealing with the situation given to them by the Palestinians.

Jan 15, 2009 - 4:57 am 31. mk:

Pete,
Come to Israel. See what it’s like. Then go to Ramallah or Bethelehem -see what it’s like.

Put up or shut up.

Jan 15, 2009 - 5:25 am 32. mountainaires:

The Jews are definitely a “race.”

But apparently the irony of “targeted killings” via air power has escaped the vast majority of readers here. Because if Israeli air power is so “targeted” then Israel wouldn’t have slaughtered nearly 700 innocent civilians in Gaza thus far [out of the more than 1,050 killed]. Right? Or is Israel intentionally slaughtering civilians?

And, Israel wouldn’t have made the “grave mistake” [Ehud Barak's words] of bombing hospitals, ambulances and now the UN Aid Center, with more than 700 civilians hiding inside for shelter from the bombing–and since the Israelis knew full well of the location of the UN Aid Center–like they knew full well of the school, in which 40 people were killed, and the UN observation center during the Lebanon attack, which killed 4 UN observers were killed, the question arises:

If Israeli Air Power is so “targeted” did they intentionally bomb these sites in order to intentionally kill innocent civilians? Or is Israeli “targeted” air power just another myth?

Jan 15, 2009 - 8:12 am 33. Pete:

MK:-

I have been to Gaza, have you even got a passport?

Jan 15, 2009 - 11:19 am 34. Naif Mabat:

My passport is bigger than your passport.

Jan 16, 2009 - 6:15 am