Pajamas Media

216 Comments

1. Pragmatist:

There seems to be a rule in US Politics that means that dried up, vengeful, humorless, ugly, stupid women are all Democrats and vivacious, beautiful, friendly,intelligent women with highly developed senses of humor are all Conservatives. Just look at Michelle Soetero Obamanator, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer and Hillary Clinton then at Pamella Geller, Michelle Malkin and Sarah Palin . Point proved I think.

Aug 16, 2009 - 12:49 am 2. MIKE in ATL:

Great article.We must shovel the BS fast,or be buried under it. Thanks Ms.CLOUTHIER and PAJAMAS MEDIA

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:16 am 3. Ed Wallis:

Well, Melissa, is semantics/words are so important, why say

OVERHAUL

when

DESTRUCTION

is more appropriate in describing
what the bill will do to law, business, our lives, etc, etc?!?

“Overhaul” has a number of “positive” (and equally misleading) attributes as well….

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:17 am 4. rachel peepers:

An example of health care reform.

Health care reform would be signing a law that health care providers, private or not, will not be allowed to ration health care. (Decide who gets a certain procedure, for example, and who doesn’t.)

Obama refuses to put a non-rationing clause into his ObamaCare plan. So the logical conclusion is that he’s not interested in reform.

But he calls his Obama care plan, “reform”. Because the word sounds positive and helpful.

At the same time, Obama said they’d be no earmarks during his administration.

Either Obama has a clown in his belly or he’s outright lying. Obama says we won’t have rationing, but refuses to put it in writing. Sounds fishy to me.

The truth is, Obama has no desire to reform healthcare.

A metaphor? What is it like that he’s trying to do? It’s like tearing down Yankee Stadium and replacing it with a parking lot where kids can play stickball. Something totally different.

In other words, Obama’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater; conducting a radical transformation, separating you from your doctor; in many instances to allow government bureaucrats deciding questions of treatment.

It’s a terrible, despicable idea. That’s why most Americans are up in arms about it.

This is the opposite of reform. This takes a radical leap backwards, effectively reducing the level of care for all Americans.

Fact is, I agree wholeheartedly with Melissa.
Obama’s socialized medicine system isn’t about reform.

Rather, it’s taking a wrecking ball to our present system and destroying health care as we know and like it, even tearing out its based-on-free-enterprise foundations.

So, I implore you not to let Obama or his slave media talk reform when they’re taking a meat cleaver instead of a scalpel to healthcare as we know it.

You trust your doctor. Ask him what he thinks.

And don’t forget that the Democrats who want to take a wrecking ball to your health care system and come between you and your doctor won’t have to live and die with your coverage. They’ll still have the old style good, safe coverage. The one that lets you and your doctor make life and death decisions. The one that lets you have a procedure if and your doctor think you need it, NO MATTER HOW OLD YOU ARE.

Socialized medicine. Don’t let Obama shove it down your throat.

Force him to pull the plug on it.

Before it pulls the plug on you.

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:49 am 5. Ed Wallis:

Words have real world consequences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4u5×9XAsAs&feature=player_embedded

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:55 am 6. Delia:

Hopefully this UN-American, misguided, cryptic, dastardly, bulldozer-bill will peter out like a scud missile dud and die a quick death back in the lap of its Creepy-Commie creators.

B.O. aka B.S., you can keep the ‘change’.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:26 am 7. vivo:

“Republicans need to insist on redefining the semantics of the current debate, and refuse to accept Obama’s disingenuous language.”

Thanks for confusing your target readers minds.

Reform: To improve by alteration, correction of error, or removal of defects; put into a better form or condition.

Transform: To change markedly the appearance or form of.

It’s obvious that the congressional goal is to reform. Transformation is a waste of time and meaningless. Now you’re confusing the poor babes.

* * *

censorship = fear

fear = ignorance

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:47 am 8. Mary Grabar:

Yes, this is the Newspeak coming from the Ministry of Truth.

Aug 16, 2009 - 4:02 am 9. Ed Wallis:

Mary (4:02am),

Agreed, but “vivo” and his ilk seem to go dumpster diving in the alley behind the Ministry quite often.

Aug 16, 2009 - 4:11 am 10. tc:

Melissa:
Bravo for you. Four friends and I had this discussion last night regarding this very same topic. I completely agree with your argument that the semantics of the debate need to be clarified and redefined on our terms. I stated that I am a “PRO HEALTHCARE REFORM CONSERVATIVE” and encouraged others to do the same. As you assert correctly, simply opposing the Obama adminstrations plans incorrectly places us in the opposition to healthcare reform, however, we have unwittingly gone along with it. Who can be against reform, when reform is needed? The fallacious logic of the left defines the genus of the topic (reform) without defining the species (single payer). This is the equivalent of being anti-ice cream when, in fact, you simply don’t like chocolate–it just doesn’t fly, but they try to get away with it.

I’d encourage conservatives to adopt the mantra of “PRO HEALTHCARE REFORM CONSERVATIVES” which initially to newsies paints you as FOR the White House’s plan. However, once the questions roll you can assert you are pro-tort reform, pro free market solutions et al. We can hijack this debate once we are no longer hijacked by the language.

You have done a great job with this column and I really hope it gets widely dispersed.

Bravo to you.

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:05 am 11. Rashputin:

The whole mess is started out as a way for the democrats to avoid the fact that Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt by just folding them into an even larger program, a program that would have limitations on what care is available to the elderly. That’s the democrat way, they bankrupt something and avoid ever fixing it by making an even larger mess that will, sooner or later, also go bankrupt. Ever since LBJ, who put the Social Security money into the general fund rather than leaving it separate, this has been their approach. Think about it a bit. Everything they create ends not only bankrupt but greatly expanded. When the time comes to pay the piper or fix the program, they never do. They make a new, bigger, more lavishly funded, program that they swear will solve the problems they themselves created.

Ever since the federal government decided that it and it alone has the wisdom to run any and all business correctly this country has been going downhill. Democrats promised to save, just off the top of my head, the shipbuilding industry, the steel industry, the machine tool industry, the consumer electronics industry, the family farm, and I’m sure there are several more. Now, the current crowd of democrat liars says it is going to save the banking industry, the health care industry, and the automobile industry, all at the same time. Isn’t it about time for people to wake up and realize that the only reason the government attaches itself to the control and over-regulation of any industry is to bleed it white and then make excuses for why it’s dead?

I don’t see how even the most liberal of liberals can honestly believe that the current Czarist regime has either the ability or the intention to actually improve or “save” any of these industries. Anyone supporting this administration at this point, after all the lies and fabrications it’s guilty of in only a few months, should openly and honestly admit that they are hoping that this country will be economically destroyed. Not somehow “improved”, but actually destroyed. Furthermore, they should openly and honestly admit that they are fervent supporters of Eugenics, euthanasia, and blatantly racist “planned parenthood” policies, as well the elimination of any and all forms of religion.

In other words, it’s time for people who consider themselves “progressive” to either fish or cut bait. No possible definition of “progressive” or “liberal” encompasses totalitarian population elimination, nor can it be bandied about as an excuse to ignore such policies. Read HR3200, don’t bother with the talking points, but actually READ the bill. It is a bill that essentially delegates all life and death decisions from conception until old age to an as yet undefined group of undefined individuals who will follow as yet undefined guidelines. If there is some reason you cannot actually read the bill, than at least please do not pretend you are supporting “healthcare” by arguing in favor of the bill. Be honest enough to admit that you are supporting your comrades in arms in your battle to eliminate this nation.

Anyone who supports this level of insanity under the guise of “healthcare” is no different than those Germans who supported the “great social and economic improvements” within Germany after Hitler took over while deliberately ignoring the evil they knew was being done.

Have a nice day

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:08 am 12. venividivici:

It’s obvious that the congressional goal is to reform. Transformation is a waste of time and meaningless. Now you’re confusing the poor babes.

And Congress and the unions will exempt themselves from the “reform” because?

And never mind our confusion, the real issue here is how do we help you get over the disillusionment you must feel seeing the great and powerful Obama flailing around and flop-sweating at these town halls (if poor Barry doesn’t watch it, he’s going to have a breakdown on live TV. That would be fun to watch!) and the Dem-led Congress changing bills in response to the “stupid” Sarah Palin. Apparently, they aren’t the all-knowing, all-beneficent Big Brothers you thought they were.

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:15 am 13. LeighB:

Since BO considers words his strength then yes, to defeat these horrible proposals on the table, opponents need to sharpen their words. From the example in the article it is not clear if the readmission would not be paid for or not permitted. I’m not sure who in the administration has read the bill but it seems a fair question to ask someone there or in Congress.

Obama has already indicated there are two groups he will “protect” in the health care government takeover, big Pharma and trial lawyers. He negotiated a “pay to play” agreement with the pharmaceutical cos. telling them the fee for letting things stay essentially the same for them. Tort reform would produce clear savings–reducing the additional tests done for the sake of defensive medicine, it would cap the awards which would lead to lower MD malpractice costs. Is the “pay to play” deal for the lawyers just unspoken, that if he keeps them out of any reform changes they will help him get re-elected in 2012?

This man is a disaster. Far worse than I feared. He says such stupid things and never gets called on them. If the AMA is not totally frustrated with him now–tonsillectomies and amputations–they never will be. Government should not control any more health care than they do already.

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:22 am 14. George S.:

..don’t feed the troll.

watch this clip and you will understand why they continue to make the same arguments over and over no matter what they are shown or told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related

save yourself the agravation and ignore them

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:22 am 15. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: No It’s Not!

It’s a Health Care Overhaul, Health Care Reform —

If you’re thinking that the Republicans should redefine the semantics in order to win the debate, you’re using the wrong verbiage…..

It’s a Health Care Takeover!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[He who has the 'gold', i.e., holds the purse-strings, RULES!]

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:31 am 16. George S.:

I have often said as have others that the liberals have hi-jacked the language.

the conservitives have not done enough to expose the manipulation of the language to hide the intent of the liberals.

even though many people say o-bum-a is eloquent, I never have. I always found him difficult to listen to. he is like a salesman who is always pitching a product but will not or can not give a straight answer.

the present debate about HEALTH CARE is a pime example. …he was pitching it as must have in two weeks or the crisis will decend on humanity. at the time there was no bill written …so how could this unwritten bill be the answer.

farmers know what that is …..it is b@llsh!t.

he has his army of progressives …drone brainwashed masses at his call …or email as the case maybe.

hidden within this health care program are the mechanics for complete identity information on all the people. …right down to your bank account. YOU KNOW IT WILL ONLY BE USED FOR GOOD

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:38 am 17. Pelaut:

Well done. Too bad substantive rebuttal like this hasn’t been available to the general public before now. I’m afraid it’s too late.

The debate is framed by the progressives. It should be about WTH the government is doing in healthcare or medical care at all, save Public Health which they do lousily.

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:38 am 18. Chris in Toronto:

How ’bout “deform”? Or “deconstitutionalization”? Or “dismemberment”?

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:39 am 19. George S.:

here is a short video clip …it highlights how marxism has been using education to spread their ideology in north america

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:57 am 20. Samizdat:

Right on Melissa. I have made the mistake of accepting the administration’s language and it’s attempt to characterize HB3200 as benign “reform” measure. Melissa’a right, it is a transformation, not a reform.

Ed Wallis, good points above about the effect of the bill being destructive, esspecially when 88 million people will be knocked out of there current insurance if HB3200 passes. The overwhelming majority of these people like what they have and don’t want a forced change to a government option.

Look at the language of the bill that Melissa exposes. I urge others to read the legislation, it is an education in the obscure and obtuse. Just use your search engine and plug in HB 3200, you will get quite an eyeful.

Mary Grabar is right in characterizing it as newspeak from the ministry of truth.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:23 am 21. AThinkingPerson:

Vivo has his terms wrong.

Obama = misinformation

misinformation = fear

fear = action

action = townhall meetings

townhall meetings = liberal fear

liberal fear = censorship

Quite easy to follow really (well, for those who aren’t bound by party talking points). In this instance, the facts speak for themselves.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:31 am 22. cedarhill:

Precisely why Democrats win most public arguments by allowing them (and the MSM) to not only frame the debate but the actual terms used. Good examples:

Choice = abort
Liberal = social Marxist
Progressive = liberal
Contribution = taxes
Invest = spend like pouring out of a boot

etc.

Then there’s the phrases such as “for the children” who happen to be 30-something now. But that (hopefully) will be another article.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:37 am 23. Sebastian Shaw:

President Obama currently campaigns AGAINST the American people of the United States he supposedly represents; therefore, Obama is coming from weakness from his Roman columns built on sand. The more Obama talks, the more the people REJECT the radical Marxist. The Democrats are in the deep ocean without a life raft on this issue. They are desperate as the continue to lose support daily. Currently, according to Rasmussan, 54% of the American public would rather have no bill than the putrid Obamacare the President is trying to sell his pig in a poke. The Democrats need to keep talking as they sputter out of control as the pressure builds for the spineless, selfish politicians. The Republicans, who have their own ideas, can talk about their plans in September…

President Obama & the Marxist Democrats are imploding. Why would I want to stop that? Let them implode with their leaderless community organizer in chief, the follower who can read scripts from his talented teleprompter…

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:09 am 24. tanstaafl:

…refuse to accept Obama’s disingenuous language.

How about refuse to accept Obama’s disingenuous character ?

Audience plants with President friendly questions, mis-representation of the substance of an objection to HR3200, telling us how the wisdom of “government” will better manage sickness & decline in old persons, individuals least able to defend themselves as they would be crunched by the all consuming maw of Jabba the Hutt…

(he blows off substantive objections by saying stuff like, just yesterday…”start saying things like we want to set up death panels to pull the plug on grandma” and goes on to tell you how he really, really understands grandma stuff, having recently had his own grandmother die on him.)

Obama doesn’t seem able to realize that his pontifications increasingly don’t wash with the common sense understandings of a huge number of Americans.

He seems fixedly determined to convince you of his wisdom and the lack of your own. The hubris of this man is increasingly on display with each passing day.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:09 am 25. Nellie:

I used to love reading Roger Simon’s blog when it first started up. It was an indication that someone who had been very partisan could become less so and just more plain reasonable. So I was very hopeful that PajamasMedia would be about reasoned, non-partisan thinking. Unfortunately, that’s not the case. Columns like this, and the comments that have been made about it, are unbelievably wrongheaded and motivated not by real understanding of how health care systems work for better and worse but by demagoguery. They contribute to the U.S. continuing to have the most expensive, in no small part because it is the least accessible (you need to understand something about health economics to understand why this is so), health care system in the entire western world. You are so concerned about all the wrong things, so dogmatic about not trying to understand things with your reason rather than entirely through your passions, that it is sad to see.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:20 am 26. Fred Beloit:

While we’re at it, if we are “healthy” we don’t need care. Why not call it what it is in full: The Sick/Injured Insurance Plans Destruction to Expand the Government and Increase Inflation Bill.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:21 am 27. Moho:

You have got to be kidding me. Not even the gullible saps who usually fall for this crap can take much more of it. You’ve pushed the credulity of your low-info base too far and the rubber band is about to come back and snap you in the face.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:29 am 28. Pragmatist:

What vivo and the other ‘libtards’ are trying to say is its OK to obfuscate and divert and deceive as long as the SOCIALIST agenda gets passed. Simple really all they care about is WINNING and driving America further down the slippery slope in to waht will eventually be a Mohammedan loving, Socialist, left wing, third world cesspit run by the Obamanations Black Czars.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:34 am 29. Cybergeezer:

As I have been saying since last year; Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barry Soetero) is a person whom will coerce and propagandize any issue to get his desired result. And the media is in full out mode to coerce, intimidate, lie, cheat, steal, threaten, and vilify, anyone whom stands in their way to serve as a conditioned soldier for their politics.
Obama, and his pandering media, are on a steadfast march, to Socialize and nationalize our entire country.
They are incorporating the “abuse of reason” to attack the present state of debate.
The dichotomy cannot e more clear; Either you are a soldier of Obama, or you are a soldier of freedom.
We need to keep the U.S. Government out of any more involvement, in the peoples healthcare.
Period

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:35 am 30. Pragmatist:

Seems like 1984 has finally arrived just a little bit late.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:35 am 31. Moho:

Hopefully this UN-American, misguided, cryptic, dastardly, bulldozer-bill will peter out like a scud missile dud and die a quick death back in the lap of its Creepy-Commie creators.

B.O. aka B.S., you can keep the ‘change’.

You must have loved things during the last administration, I suppose. Which means your an idiot.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:48 am 32. David W. Lincoln:

There are two options: truth is timeless and universal, which is the position taken by C.S. Lewis, Mortimer Adler, et al, or it is a reflection of the status quo.

Dominance is the endgame, and frankly at times it is one, and the rest of the time it is the other.

Leave it to Obama to give the lead, most of the time, to Antonio Gramsci, Thomas Dewey, and Oliver Wendell Holmes, rather than give the lead more often to the likes of C.S. Lewis and Mortimer Adler.

Because, Obama practises that words have the meanings he wants them to have,
regardless of convention.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:59 am 33. Ed Butt:

From what I have seen of the Obamacare bill comparisons with the british national Health Service are grossly unfair. The NHS has its nightmares due to excessive bureaucracy and the government control freakery behind trying to centralise all decision making and impose one-size-fits-all care but in the end decisions on treatment are still taken by clinical staff.

AND

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:09 am 34. Ed Butt:

FULL COMMENT (finger trouble curtailed last attempt)
From what I have seen of the Obamacare bill comparisons with the british national Health Service are grossly unfair. The NHS has its nightmares due to excessive bureaucracy and the government control freakery behind trying to centralise all decision making and impose one-size-fits-all care but in the end decisions on treatment are still taken by clinical staff.

AND we would treat Teddy Kennedy for his brain tumour even though he is 77 and we have not forgotten about all that money he raised for the IRA.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:11 am 35. Mike Murray:

Just as is the case with heath care “reform,” the Obama administration couches virtually everything it proposes in comfortable, feel-good language. Obama and his consorts depend heavily upon a gullible public — and even more upon a lap-dog media — to leave unprobed their true intentions.

The practice of political misdirection did not originate with these folks, of course. But, given their employment of lofty, near-spiritual rhetoric, they’ve certainly elevated it to an art form.

In my opinion, they are a dangerous lot. Their ambitions, it seems to me, extend well beyond remaking any one industry or “redistributing” a little wealth. For these thugs, it’s all about power. And they’re working overtime to accumulate massive amounts of it.

See: Socialism (of a sort) http://emmeffemm.com/id172.html

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:18 am 36. Aaron Byrnes:

Sara Palin totally kicked butt this week scoring twice on Obama, one-on-one. They thought they could Quayle her. But she is stronger than that. They thought they could tie her to Alaska and smack her around like a tether ball with Alaska’s bizzare ethics procedures. She changed the game.

She showed them all. Sara is up, her detractors had to remove the ‘non-existent’ death panel provisions from the bill, conceding the argument to her.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:29 am 37. Fred Beloit:

31 Moho[?]
“You must have loved things during the last administration, I suppose. Which means your an idiot.”

There is something fishy about Moho’s insult. First, Moho sounds just like Harpo. Second, Moho seems to have violated PJM guideline 3. Guideline “3. Disagree, but avoid ad-hominem attacks.” Third, Moho has changed the subject to the last administration while this topic is the attempt by the present administration to foist The Sick/Injured Insurance Plans Destruction to Expand the Government and Increase Inflation Bill on we decent Americans. “2. Stay on topic.”

Please, Moho, doo doo stay on topic.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:50 am 38. Sebastian Shaw:

Most of the American people realize the so-called health care reform is a total transformational takeover of epic proportions; hence, the large public interest with the various town hall meetings around the country as the politicians hide under their desks. President Obama’s town halls should not be taken seriously given almost all of them are plants. President Obama’s fantasy world is going to come crashing down upon him very soon. He cannot hide in his celebrity bubble of ego & narcissism much longer, despite the MSM still holding his water.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:51 am 39. venividivici:

37

I think the moderators let those guys post to drive up hits, to be honest, but they definitely suffer from “I’m a Legend in My Own Mind” syndrome. They remind me of the type of guy who thinks he should be CEO after two weeks on the job.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:04 am 40. George S.:

37. Fred Beloit

..don’t feed the troll.

watch this clip and you will understand why they continue to make the same arguments over and over no matter what they are shown or told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related

save yourself the agravation and ignore them

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:04 am 41. LeighB:

Cybergeezer–I am inspired by your word yet again. It’s not health care reform, it’s Obama’s Death March.

I like it. (perhaps you did not intend to go that far, the term seems to fit)

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:06 am 42. AThinkingPerson:

FINALLY…. The liberal left now wonders about who Obama is. Read on fellow patriots…

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/15/facing-health-care-oblivion-the-left-finally-wonders-who-really-is-barack-obama/

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:08 am 43. TexEd:

Be at ease! Presidential medical adviser, Ezekiel (Dr. Mengele) Emanuel, is working hard to come up with new labels for the death panels. It should be easy to come up with euphemisms that equal, “Pull the plug on grannie!”
“If ObamaCare Ain’t Good Enough For My Congressman And My Mailman, It Ain’t Good Enough For Me!”

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:08 am 44. venividivici:

11

The whole mess is started out as a way for the democrats to avoid the fact that Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt by just folding them into an even larger program, a program that would have limitations on what care is available to the elderly.

This is the only way to keep the Ponzi scheme going.

These people have absolutely zero credibility on costs:

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/04/health-care-reform-cost-estimates-what-is-the-track-record/

Cue the “The Iraq War was only going to cost X and it cost Y” chorus.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:11 am 45. Moho:

Fred. What could be more on topic than the fact that you idiots had your clams sealed shut for the last eight years while the previous administration got us stuck in two wars and ran our deficit up to astronomical amounts? This is what you people never understand–context. Claiming that you’re suddenly worried about the budget while sleeping through the last eight years undermines your argument. Seriously. This is like finding a burglar sleeping in your bed, and insisting that you only talk about the bed, because the break-in is changing the subject. Luckily, only about 25% of the electorate are dumb enough to believe this crap. They may be loud, obnoxious and stupid, but it’ll be a long time before the rest of America forgets what a disaster the last Republican administration was.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:12 am 46. adam:

Wouldn’t it be nice to see Palin take on the obscene “teabagger” term and shame the Leftists (at least those on TV, newspapers or magazines) into abandoning it?

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:13 am 47. Moho:

Trampstampfl–>”He seems fixedly determined to convince you of his wisdom and the lack of your own.”

LOL. Yeah, a real hard sell.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:16 am 48. Cindy Sue Causey:

Short and sweet = DEMAND the concept of H.R. 946 Plain Language Act be applied to H.R. 3200…

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:17 am 49. Cindy Sue Causey:

WHOA.. Totally weird and totally OT = Wires are crossed at PJM today apparently..?

Am seeing Your comment is awaiting moderation for two comments that are not mine and that also are not showing up in a different browser that doesn’t have this one’s cookie(s) saved.. Might mean the system really could be viewing them as mine this sec for whatever gremlin-related reason..

Oh, AND my own actually pending comment isn’t showing here the way it always, always has in the past.. ALRIGHTY THEN.. =D

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:26 am 50. Samizdat:

Chuck Pelto,

Exactly correct. It is healthcare takeover. This from the folks who are refusing to acknowledge that Social Security will soon be bankrupt, that Medicare is bankrupt and that the post office is bankrupt. But there will be no rationing or queues as a result of implementing Obamacare. There will also be no tax increases on those who make less than 250K. Yeah, right.

HHS Sebelius apparently pulled single payer off the table this am. That is an acknowlegement of the fact that the Dems know they can’t get the votes with that in HB3200. Dem senators are stating they don’t believe a bill will be ready for passage this year. Harry Reid is losing control over the schedule of the debate, as is Speaker Pelosi.

The reaction by Democrat leaders is an acknowledgement of facts. Members have been assaulted by troubling questions about the legislation that they have had to acknowledge they don’t have answers to. HB3200 doesn’t match up with the promises being made by the President, it’s that simple. It doesn’t save money, provide for portability, allow 88 million to keep their private insurer or cover those who are uncovered. 17 million will remain uncovered if HB3200 becomes law. It is exactly a takeover, a usurpation.

Make certain that your Congress person knows that you know these things about HB3200. Nice job Chuck.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:27 am 51. Delia:

M:

‘You’re an idiot’…not, “Your an idiot”.

Improper grammar usage nullifies your ability to use the word ‘idiot’ against your intended target effectively with any substantive credibility.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-You‘re-and-Your

P.S. I’d rather have Bush back any day over Insanobama who wants to dismantle America and who still employs many of Bush’s ‘HORRID’ policies.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:37 am 52. Delia:

42. AThinkingPerson,

That article was an excellent read!

“it’s clear that there’s at least one thing Barack Obama is fully and fixatedly convinced of: himself”

Ain’t it da troof!

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:58 am 53. Gallifet:

These are excellent points about the Republican party, earlier this spring they wanted no part of the Tea Parties because they might have failed, now it is the Patriot movement that is actually driving the news and they want to appear as though they were always on board. They must not get the idea that they will win by default here. I personally tried to get my local Republican party involved last spring, ask people in ‘the movement’ about this. The profound ‘conservatism’ of the Republican party is as dangerous to America, as the post-modern marxists that hijacked the Democrat party. They have appeased the left with compromises for 40 years and continue to. The Radical Left has brushed aside our defenses and now controls the water hole. They are drinking deeply. Why should they hear your reasoned arguments? They don’t raise capital, they steal it. That’s FREE money they are taking, what do you think it will take to move them away? Pretty please? Oxford Debating Society rules?

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:11 am 54. Pragmatist:

Moho the Obamanation took over a Budget Deficit of $400 Billion in JUST SIX MONTHS he has already raised that to $1.2 TRILLION and it will go astronomically higher as all his failed policies kick in. But ‘libtards’ like you think we should not be concerned and think we should not worry so now we know know exactly how bright YOU are. We are now seeing what a REAL disaster looks like and its going to get ugly before it gets better.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:12 am 55. Pragmatist:

Oh and another thing MOHO WHERE’S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE and all the OTHER documents and information the Obamanation is HIDING.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:14 am 56. venividivici:

The reaction by Democrat leaders is an acknowledgement of facts. Members have been assaulted by troubling questions about the legislation that they have had to acknowledge they don’t have answers to.

The great thing about the Internet is that the truth about these bills can be more widely disseminated than ever. Given your username, I know you know the value of that capability.

What’s also interesting is that it is also a triumph of the “amateur” analyst, in the truest derivation of that word, i.e. someone who “loves” something, who is willing to voluntarily spend time going through the arcana and lawyerly language of these bills to find the most obnoxious aspects and report them out. “Open-source legislating”, I guess, and a real end-run around the special interest groups that really shape the language of the bills.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:27 am 57. venividivici:

George S,

I’m with you. The problem is that while I can turn off the computer and ignore these folks, they actually walk among us in real-life. That’s still a major issue.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:28 am 58. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Heads Up!

It has been reported that Senator Spector (D-PA) has dropped a proposed bill on the Senate staff. I say ‘proposed’ because what I’ve seen does not have an official Senate ‘bumper number’ on it just yet.

What I HAVE seen, if accurate, is an outrageous abomination that could be a key indicator of the Democrat’s plans to put the federal government ABOVE THE LAW that all the rest of US have to live by.

Why do I say this?

Because on pages 113-114 of this document, it looks for ALL THE WORLD, the Congress—as well as all the federal government—is EXEMPT from the strictures of this ‘Health Care Reform’.

You can download the document in PDF form from THIS SITE. Just go to the beginning of the verbiage provided and click on the link proffered.

‘Enjoy’…..

Chuck(le)
P.S. This bill will not be ‘officially’ a bill until the Senate staffers put a bumper number on it. Between then and now, Spector might withdraw it. However, if Spector DID submit it, it’s a key indicator of Democratic mentality…..

…..health care for me, but not for thee….

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:32 am 59. Moho:

55Oh and another thing MOHO WHERE’S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE and all the OTHER documents and information the Obamanation is HIDING.

Case in point. Pure gullible idgits. Keep it up, you’ll surely glide your way back to the White House on these fantasies.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:36 am 60. Moho:

Improper grammar usage nullifies your ability to use the word ‘idiot’ against your intended target effectively with any substantive credibility.

What were you saying about changing the subject? My god, you people are just too much.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:38 am 61. Fred Beloit:

#45 Moho “…you idiots…”
Oh, Moho, thanks for being inclusive. Libruls are all about inclusion.
As for your claim that I was silent during the Bush years you are wrong. I spent a lot of time and effort defending him against pacifists and Libruls who took the side of our enemies, not because he was such a good Pres. but because Gore and Kerry would have been so all-out awful. As for the war in Iraq, you may not have heard about it but we won.
Back to the topic at hand. Several reports are out that the so-called public option (wrong on both terms) is right out. 999 pages to go.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:43 am 62. Eric:

True reform would get the government totally out of the health care market. If government hadn’t waded into the market with Medicare and Medicaid then they wouldn’t likely care about prices, health care inflation, etc much like they don’t care about most other markets.

The GOP has free market alternatives ready to go if the statists would give up their goal of power and control over the free market and the American people. But, they’re statists and power is their goal regardless of the price.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:44 am 63. myth buster:

Conservatives did have a problem with the Bush deficits, but prior to 2008, the deficits weren’t all that concerning, never exceeding 4% of GDP and dropping to just over 1% of GDP in 2007. We figured that eventually revenues would catch up to the spending. Besides that, the fact is that paying for wars is a duty of the Federal Government; paying for the health care of anyone other than federal employees, veterans and their families most decidedly is not.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:44 am 64. Eric:

NO COMPROMISE!

The GOP must give no quarter and accept no compromise that doesn’t reverse the course of government control. Government is the prime driver of health care inflation.

Any compromise with the Progressives is merely delaying the inevitable. They never, ever give up and always keep driving toward their goal of total control. They may accept compromise now but will be back for the rest later. It may take several years or even decades but they will incrementally achieve their goal if the GOP compromises. The entire history of Progressivism is one of incrementalism. Consider the long march through the institutions. It’s taken decades but they control most public institutions now.

NO COMPROMISE.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:47 am 65. Eric:

The federal government has NO Constitutional authority to establish a health care plan of any kind. We must draw a Constitutional line in the sand or else the Constitution is meaningless.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:49 am 66. tanstaafl:

Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barry Soetero)

Cybergeezer, for you, link below.

Andrew McCarthy is one of the most incisive & objective analysts around.

Suborned in the U.S.A.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:51 am 67. steve:

Don’t fall for Drudges’s proclamation of a white flag by these Marxists on government run health care.

They are simply trying to difuse the 9-12 demonstrations.

Please pass the site of the Washington demanstrations on 9-12:

http://912dc.org/

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:59 am 68. cubedweller:

The best illustration of what the “progressives” are looking to do and what the debate on the left is:

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/obamas54strip1.jpg

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:02 am 69. tanstaafl:

Columns like this, and the comments that have been made about it, are unbelievably wrongheaded and motivated not by real understanding of how health care systems work for better and worse but by demagoguery…You are so concerned about all the wrong things, so dogmatic about not trying to understand things with your reason rather than entirely through your passions, that it is sad to see.

nellie, nellie, nellie, how wrong you are.

You wouldn’t be a plant, would you ? Obama uses them regularly at his own (contrived) townhalls.

“healthcare” Obama style (he still hasn’t read this or any bill he stumps for) is a continuation of his philosophy de vie, projection of his version of “positive rights” (i.e., government provided) onto the people and dimunition of those nasty freedoms from government spelled out in the bill of rights.

The Founders are definitely squirming.

Yeah, we need some healthcare “reform” (I’ll vouch for that as a function of personal experience in the medical system) but no free people needs Obamacare.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:06 am 70. Samizdat:

Venividivici,

Yes they walk amoung us. We also need to use fact and reason to neutralize their arguments.

That being said, I have had quite enough of the rudeness, illogic, dishonesty, and fraud that is perpetrated by the likes of Moho, BC, Vivo, Now and Then and the other lefty prevaricators who choose to try to sell here. I don’t mind debating with honest folks, but these trolls don’t fit that description. They pursue their intellectually bankrupt agenda by any means necessary, truth be damned.

I say put out the facts and otherwise ignore their existence. They are common and not worthy of my valuable time.

Veni, I trust you have communicated with your Congress person and Senator’s about your misgivings concerning HB3200. Respectful facts only.

In closing, let me say to you and the other thoughtful commentators, thank you for your wit and perseverance. As the Dems pull parts of the bill off the table you can tell the facts are getting to them. They are having to play defense and they are inadequate at it. Keep up the pressure.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:21 am 71. tanstaafl:

The federal government has NO Constitutional authority to establish a health care plan of any kind. We must draw a Constitutional line in the sand or else the Constitution is meaningless.

Absolutely, Eric.

No branch of the federal government is constitutionally empowered to do any of this stuff.

For the record, (besides no granted power relative to the peoples’ “healthcare”) there is no power to the Executive in the Constitution (Article II) to redistribute wealth (or anything else under the sun) and no power of the Legislature (Article I) to dream up schemes on which to spend your money.

Way back when, over some dinky thing to spend something like $10,000 (well, that was real money then…) James Madison said:

“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:22 am 72. Delia:

68. cubedweller,

HI-larious! -And, VERY true. When the Soros Cabana Boyz get a gander at that…of course, ‘they’ won’t get it.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:28 am 73. George S.:

68.

GREAT LINK ..hope the trolls don’t see it, they will think it is joke

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:47 am 74. Kriska:

To #50 Samizidat:

“The reaction by Democrat leaders is an acknowledgement of facts. Members have been assaulted by troubling questions about the legislation that they have had to acknowledge they don’t have answers to. HB3200 doesn’t match up with the promises being made by the President, it’s that simple. It doesn’t save money, provide for portability, allow 88 million to keep their private insurer or cover those who are uncovered. 17 million will remain uncovered if HB3200 becomes law. It is exactly a takeover, a usurpation.”

“HHS Sebelius apparently pulled single payer off the table this am.”

Great points!

Thanks to all the folks who made their considerations known at the TH meetings and to emailing their governing entities, this abomination is at bay for the moment.

While single payer has been pulled, now there seems to be a push for a “co-op” plan. That sounded good, until I briefly heard it would be started by the governtment then they would step away when in force. I’ve never heard of government ever stepping back from anything that they have had a hand in.

While I know that the insurance system can be improved upon, I am afraid if THEY get involved in “co-op”, it will just be putting “lipstick on a pig” (i.e private pay)–it’s still a pig!!.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:53 am 75. Gallifet:

As for the Republican Statist compromise with the Democrat Marxists, I am reminded of Anthony Eden’s remarks on Neville Chamberlain. “The sum of my criticism of Chamberlain’s foreign policy is that his too patent eagerness to come to terms with the dictators encourages their aggressive tendencies. Queen Elizabeth once wrote to the Danish Ambassador: “I would have the King of Denmark know that England hath no need to crave peace.”

Aug 16, 2009 - 12:14 pm 76. Steve DeMarcus:

What the republicans really need to do is tell it like it is and say hey folk this man and the democrat party are dishonest and are misleading you then give alternatives or just flatly say no to any bill that involves the government (kill the bill).

As time goes on however more people are looking at what has already been written and do not like shat they are seeing. They should actually look at the proposed Cap and Trade and oppose it simply because Obama and the democrats are for it.

Vote out all democrats in 2010 and 2012 and bring back smaller government with less regulation and lower taxes and encourage new and more robust business.

Aug 16, 2009 - 12:48 pm 77. Sherab Zangpo:

Government-controlled or co-op controlled, with the co-ops controlled by the government, it’s the same United Socialist States of America recipe.
The private insurances will be put out of business and some agit-prop-community-organizer red guard from hell will decide who lives and who dies and how.

The true name of all these “reforms” (health care, cap and trade and whatever else these commies will invent)is TORPEDOES AGAINST THE FREE-MARKET ECONOMY.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:05 pm 78. AThinkingPerson:

FYI….The liberals are self-destructing over Obama now backtracking on the public option for health care reform! Read the article if you must but the most interesting part is the comment section. The liberals truly are in a tizzy and are P.O.’ed and wanting Obama, Pelosi and Reid’s heads on a platter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/16/sebelius-public-health-ca_n_260511.html

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:10 pm 79. BC:

To Samizdat: Ooo…someone took my name in vain — I didn’t post anything regarding this article, but I still got mentioned anyhow as a “troll”. Tsk, tsk, especially since I probably contributed more no nonsense, just the facts, referenced info in my last postings than PM has seen in its main articles for quite some time.

Which brings up a point/question I had made earlier: what exactly is the purpose of Pajamas Media and similar conservative/right wing sites? To feed your demographic audience with all the malicious nonsense they want to believe about Obama, as well as liberals & Democrats in general? To function as a genuine, fact-checked alternative news source for people finding the mainstream corporate media lacking? Or are you guys and the others no more than just updated Usenet discussion groups with a nicer format, but still consisting mostly of people venting their heavily biased, often malicious, opinions about stuff they apparently have little understanding or even knowledge of?

Well? A random Internet troll is kind of curious.

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:12 pm 80. AThinkingPerson:

BC (#79): “but still consisting mostly of people venting their heavily biased, often malicious, opinions about stuff they apparently have little understanding or even knowledge of?”

My, my, my, we are full of ourself today aren’t we BC? Do tell, what do we have “little understand of” and please provide links to correct us so we can be as enlightened as you.

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:20 pm 81. Sebastian Shaw:

I don’t think the government Co-Op is not going to work either since it could be a Trojan Horse for the Public Option; the public will not stand for it. The politicians have to scrap all the current bills & start over.

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:36 pm 82. Marc Malone:

#25 (Whoa) Nellie – We on the Right have not been acting out of emotion. Notice how many people here have actually read the danged bill. Look how many Conservative pundits have read it. Then ask yourself how many Dem Congresscritters have read it. Our emotions are not driving our reactions, except in response to our actual understanding of the horrific nature of this stupid bill.

You, however, seem to be functioning on pure emotion. You want this healthcare bill, or some equivalent of it. I’ll admit that I can’t know this for certain. I have seen a few of your posts here, and the trend and tone of them lead to this tenuous conclusion. I ask you, have you yourself read any portion of the bill, as I have? If not, then you should not charge us with operating on emotion. It’s arrogant and hypocritical.

Pelto – Dead on. Healthcare “takeover”.

#68 cubedweller – Excellent! Hilarious! Devastating analogy! Just deadly exposure of the gross hypocrisy. A must-see!

Mr. Rosenbaum – Despite its few flaws, your point is perfectly valid. We must expose the lies and the liars. Demonstrate to people how they are being connived. Conservatives recognize this manipulation. The RINO’s buy into it, which is why it is so hard to keep the moderates from compromising (Compromise is a meme itself).

Right now, the Repubs have never been so united in an effort. Not a single one broke ranks, even without a leader to rally them. (Of course, it may be because many see this as an opportunity to regain power.) Obama has become our “Great Uniter”. It’s the only truth I’ve ever heard him tell. Of course, he meant it as uniting the country, not the Pubs!

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:37 pm 83. venividivici:

79

Tsk, tsk, especially since I probably contributed more no nonsense, just the facts, referenced info in my last postings than PM has seen in its main articles for quite some time.

The crux of the author’s point is here:

What is described in the bill here is not simply a reform. The tax code, legal system, hospitals, insurance companies, doctors, and the patient experience are radically changed. Radical change does not suggest reform. It suggests transformation.

To get to that conclusion, she cited this:

http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm

and included one specific passage from that link.

So, the question to you is, how is this author’s “opinion” of the bill in any way “malicious”, “biased” or “uninformed”? And, how is this opinion not based on fact?

Be specific and don’t make the entire response about how friggin’ smart and enlightened you are. Save that stuff for your mommy, who actually has to at least pretend to believe you, unlike us.

Aug 16, 2009 - 1:55 pm 84. john from cinncinatti:

well its my uninformed opinion that the big O has promised hope and change. while he never said it would be better than the last 8 years, i never thought it would be this bad. the bullshit-o-meter is pegged out, and i find myself, one of the baby boomers that just couldn’t trust the government in the 60’s, unable to trust the government in this new millennium. to quote my favorite character, Forest Gump” i may not be a smart man but i know what love is” i ain’t feeling the love on this health care issue, that’s all i gotta say about that.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:07 pm 85. Steve Sampson:

The Progressive Socialists are in panic mode and their discomfiture is due to the internet and talk radio, not the GOP. We seem to have a cowardly bunch of sycophants leading our party who wait like Obama waited in Iran, when the students demonstrators were being murdered and still are being murdered and raped, to see how this is going to play out. The Progressive Socialists and Liberal Marxists are in trouble and on the ropes, they are of course changing nomenclature and will be using every ruse they can think up to divert attention from their despicable Marxist agenda.

We can take pride in our humble contribution, but rather than sitting back and admiring our handiwork, we need to press the attack even harder. Ideas are gleaned from this commentary and used by more gifted writers for more articles in the future, these ideas also serve to bolster the resolve of our fellow patriots and let them know they are not alone in their feelings of contempt for this Village Idiot type President who can’t face an audience without the real power in control, the teleprompter.

As his head snaps from left to right depending on the electronic word as if it were oxygen itself he parodies himself as if he were already in a wax museum giving canned speeches. His homilies like “Folks and Grandmaw” he uses to connect with the common people that are not Ivy League and ghetto based seem glaringly incongruous and but a pathetic attempt to identify with us the middle class that he hates so much.

We, Patriots who love Liberty, have no choice but to fight on until this administration is accepted as one of the most embarrassing chapters of American History. We must go for the jugular to destroy this Marxist Front and the legacy it leaves behind. There can be no quarter, no pity, nothing; this Marxist is committed to destroying our Freedom so that he and his Cabal of Socialist Elites will live in opulence while directing our lives like Chavez, Putin, and Castro control their people.

They have lost their momentum and we must never let up: we must point out every lie, every corruption, every example of incompetence, and every obvious betrayal of foreign policy. Like the cage fighter, when our opponent is dazed and wobbling, it is time to unleash our full power and fury. Good luck friends and patriots, God Speed.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:08 pm 86. vivo:

21. AThinkingPerson, 28. Pragmatist, 70. Samizdat:

censorship = fear

fear = ignorance

I was referring to the moderators here censoring perfectly clean and clear statements that they know will reveal their lies.

I will continue signing like this until respect for freedom of speech returns.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:24 pm 87. rachel peepers:

A larger perspective.

In these comments regarding Melissa’s article, there are two sides to this particular argument. (debate isn’t the correct word).

One side wants to destroy American, replacing it with socialism.

The other side is trying to preserve the principles on which this country was founded.

I salute the one side, you know who you are, the BO is all BS side. I’m proud of you. Honored to be among you.

The other side, for whatever reason, is out to destroy America.

Is in bed with every socialist, America-damaging initiative Obama and his people can come up with.

A battle was won today, but the war drags on.

Stay on the offensive.

Barack is making a strategic withdrawal on his government planned occupation of all things having to do with healthcare.

Now, his lawyers think the best course is to get where he wants to be (gov.run healthcare) by careful steps. Exactly the same strategy for killing the second amendment.

I accept nothing short of unconditional surrender. Don’t trust the Obama administration to have a hand in it whatsoever.

This isn’t negotiable. Obama, hands off healthcare.

As far as the socialist leeches in here, my advice, for all but thinking person is treat them as being dead to you.

Let them ruminate among themselves. If you know what I mean, it takes two people to have an obscene phone call. Figuratively, hang up on them.

Let thinking person, who has special skills and abilities far beyond those of mine, to cut the American haters down to size, and expose them for what they are. Let him take them apart piece by piece because his wit and sarcasm makes them bleed from their main arteries.

Novissimum agmen. The battle has been joined. Attack. Attack. Attack. When it comes to domestic political terrorists, there’s no such thing as polite discourse. No such thing as a white flag.

When you get the enemy in your figurative political sights, don’t hesitate.

If we don’t pull the plug on any health care plan or input from or of Obama it’s likely one day to pull the plug on someone we love.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:37 pm 88. tanstaafl:

Steve Sampson, we’ll call you Thomas Paine.

Nice writing, I especially like this image…

As his head snaps from left to right depending on the electronic word as if it were oxygen itself he parodies himself as if he were already in a wax museum giving canned speeches.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:38 pm 89. Bear:

BC what is your purpose?

I learned a few decades back that if I’m ill prepared to take either side in an argument, then my opinions don’t have much value. No invocation of the empathy word.

I’m not sure Obama understands any side of the argument.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:40 pm 90. Joe C.:

Support for health care RE-form is still high; it’s support for health care DE-form (ObamaCare) that’s plummeting. Unlike Dr. Emanuel’s plan, it’s not the very young and very old that are too expensive, but this monstrosity of a bill.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:45 pm 91. Commuter:

70. Samizdat: Said

‘I say put out the facts and otherwise ignore their existence.’

You also said something along these lines but with more detail on another thread:

‘Pajamas is a private website and it can publish as it see’s fit. I encourage it to continue to publish all comments that fit its criteria posted at the beginning of the comments section.’

Let me run an analogy by you that I read a while back on another site and that stuck with me. Some adaptation.

You like discussing sports and have come to favor a local watering hole when other fans congregate. You have spirited discussions with other local fans over a brew or two, and have no problem with including respectful debate with fans who grew up supporting a rival team.

Lately, a couple of mooks keep coming in. Painted with the colors of their team, they march around the bar banging ladles on pots as hard as they can to drown out everyone else. When they are asked to stop, they start screeching that everyone is stupid who supports the other team. They call everyone who attends games to support the team the most derogatory term that their type can think of – fa**ots – and everyone in the bar the same.

The bartender’s position is that he doesn’t want to ban these couple of morons, because he doesn’t want to lose their business.

Very shortly, the crew you enjoyed jawing with stops showing up. The morons keep coming by, and they’re bringing friends now. Their noise is starting to completely drown out the reduced number of polite conversations going on.

You see where this is going.

Like moogie, I’ve decided that I want no part of entering discussions on a site that encourages the teabagging term, and allowing it without repercussions is encouraging it. I’ve been reading while completely ignoring the handful of face-painted morons and their posts, but reading less and less as the population of their posts become relatively larger as fewer and fewer intelligent and thoughtful folks post.

You see where that is going.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:49 pm 92. Moho:

PeepersOne side wants to destroy American, replacing it with socialism.

The other side is trying to preserve the principles on which this country was founded.

Exactly why your side lost the house, the Senate and the White House these last three years. Its quite clear that people grew weary of this “for or against me” dynamic constantly pushed by incompetent politicians and the small minds they rally to their side with the lazy clarity of good vs. evil dichotomies. I don’t mind. Keep it up, I’d like to see you keep digging your hole all the way through the earth. Shouldn’t take long, I hear its flat.

Aug 16, 2009 - 2:51 pm 93. Moho:

Samizdat That being said, I have had quite enough of the rudeness, illogic, dishonesty, and fraud that is perpetrated by the likes of [insert names of people that make me cry because they disagree with me] and the other lefty prevaricators who choose to try to sell here. I don’t mind debating with honest folks, but these trolls don’t fit that description. They pursue their intellectually bankrupt agenda by any means necessary, truth be damned.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:01 pm 94. Moho:

Benoit–>a case of self p3nage so perfectly crafted, it may one day be immortalized in the Smithsonian.

As for your claim that I was silent during the Bush years you are wrong. I spent a lot of time and effort defending him against pacifists and Libruls who took the side of our enemies, not because he was such a good Pres. but because Gore and Kerry would have been so all-out awful. As for the war in Iraq, you may not have heard about it but we won.

What could be more indicative of the “when its our side, its right, when its yours, its wrong” mentality. You people are so mired in it, you don’t even know how stupid it makes you look to the outside world. Its one of the reasons people aren’t eager to see folks like you back in the driver’s seat any time soon.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:06 pm 95. bibio44:

‘Because “government-run health care” — both the phrase and the actuality of the idea — go over like a lead balloon with the American people….’

Yeah, there’s a groundswell of seniors who want an end to Medicare and a similar groundswell of veterans who want an end to the V.A.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:07 pm 96. BC:

To Venividivici: Let’s see now, what is the main point of the article — “Republicans need to insist on redefining the semantics of the current debate, and refuse to accept Obama’s disingenuous language.” So in other words, another attempt, albeit in more gentler terms this time, to paint Obama as as a deceiver at best, a liar at worst, and that his health care initiative will “remake the very fabric of American society should they be implemented.”

Utter, 100% Grade A BS.

And yes, I went through that link containing that little bit of out-of-context (surprise, surprise — what is it with right wingers and their hatred of context?) The author’s “analysis” — and I use that word generously here — is extremely faulty. The basic problem is that you simply can’t take bits and pieces of the bill out of context — the bill tries to address a whole pile of issues with the current deteriorating health care system in one fell swoop, and you have to understand the underlying problems that such and such a section is trying to address. For instance the author tries to argue that “pages 284-288, SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS” “is government rationing, pure, simple, and straight up.”

No. It’s to address the ever increasing wait times for treatment, especially at emergency rooms, by not having medical personnel and resources tied up with needless readmissions. In other words, it’s to address a current and growing problem, and characterizing it as being something more sinister is either clueless, malicious or both.

The same applies to the author’s following points about coverage, starting with “pages 167-168, section 401, TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE:”

Much or most of this sounds very like a variation of the Massachusetts plan where a core part of was to get the uninsured to enroll in some sort of health care insurance plan, or else face a tax penalty. In Massachusetts, that bit worked, aided with the option of getting a basic health care plan that for individuals was a lot cheaper than what they could normally get, but Massachusetts officials underestimated the costs to the state if it became too successful. Obama’s version apparently sets a graduated tax to better offset costs. Again all of this is intended to address a current and growing problem — uninsured people, especially the poor, using expensive emergency rooms as drop-in clinics, forcing hospitals to pass along the expenses to others.

I’ve written elsewhere that I’m not down with way Obama and his people have gone about this. While I understand what they are doing and why they are doing it, I still very much think that a lot more groundwork should have been done explaining the problems as they see them, and what they think would address them, before presenting the bill. This is allowing all this rabble rousing nitpicking and seeing windmills as dragons that’s been completely muddling up the “debate” (and again I’m being generous here).

Somewhat related, I just saw in the news how Obama and his people are supposedly going to drop the public health insurance option. If that happens, then the health plan is going to be watered down somewhat since even the threat of a “public option” was already putting pressure on insurers to at least better manage their rates, as well as being a possible fallback method to get the uninsured poor into some sort of health insurance plan. I think Obama really needs to get out at least a Cliff Notes version of the main points of the bill and footnote the reasoning behind them.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:33 pm 97. adam:

When the Left starts complaining about how partisan we are, how intolerant, how much we just want to win, I’d say it’s a sign that we’re doing alright

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:34 pm 98. venividivici:

Yeah, there’s a groundswell of seniors who want an end to Medicare and a similar groundswell of veterans who want an end to the V.A.

I guess that because there isn’t a “groundswell” that means Medicare won’t bankrupt the country, right?

Clearly, today’s seniors get more back than they paid in to the Medicare trust fund, in part because medical technology changes so rapidly and estimating the costs is nearly impossible, making setting the proper tax rate nearly impossible as well, so why should they want to end it? It’s the folks like myself who are looking ahead and saying that the spending is unsustainable who want to end it before our taxes get jacked up the the stratosphere.

If you would stop looking at the present situation as an exact model of what the future will be like, you’d realize that.

http://www.scrivener.net/2008/05/how-much-will-income-taxes-have-to-go.html

It seems like none of you on the Left can think 5 minutes ahead, yet you style yourselves as “long-term thinkers”. On the evidence, one must conclude that you are either deluding yourselves in this matter or you simply like the sound of increasing total income taxes by 54% from today’s levels. This is sheer insanity.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:39 pm 99. adam:

Another sign that we’re doing alright (I’m surprised this hasn’t found its way into the comments–unless I missed it): apparently, the public option has been declared dead.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:44 pm 100. Marc Malone:

#95 bibio44 – This is a strawman argument. Of course they don’t want to end it. It’s their only option, and they’ve earned it. They made their plans in life, and these programs were part of the equation. Would you want your employer to cancel your insurance plan without any recompense, just end it? You get nothing, no raise, nothing?

It’s not that people don’t know how bad these programs are. They do. It’s just that it has become essential to life for them, and they now have no other option. It is too late for them to change direction. The systems, however, have lots of room for improvements.

Aug 16, 2009 - 3:57 pm 101. klrtz1:

“I have had quite enough of the rudeness, illogic, dishonesty, and fraud that is perpetrated by the likes of Moho, BC, Vivo, Now and Then and the other lefty prevaricators who choose to try to sell here. I don’t mind debating with honest folks, but these trolls don’t fit that description. They pursue their intellectually bankrupt agenda by any means necessary, truth be damned.”

I agree. The only fun I have with trolls is to ask them questions so they will ignore me.

Here’s a question for the trolls:

What’s wrong with having tort reform as part of health care reform or health insurance reform or whatever you’re calling it this week? Don’t you want to save money? Tort reform in Texas is saving Texans money.

Aug 16, 2009 - 4:05 pm 102. Moho:

Don’t forget our piss-poor government run military. Hopefully, these courageous teabaggers can get the private sector to take that over too.

Aug 16, 2009 - 4:19 pm 103. Eric:

85. Steve Sampson:

Well said.

Aug 16, 2009 - 4:39 pm 104. Samizdat:

Commuter,

There is truth in your analogy. I appreciate you taking the time to lay it out.

In our country, under the 1st Amendment we are all permited wide latitude regarding our speech. The government can not impinge on our freedom even if we say stupid and ignorant things. We can’t yell “fire” in a movie theater and there are certain racial epithets that are construed as hate. Other than that we can speak as we please.

That being said, we don’t need to subscribe to review the oppinions of the uninfromed and ridiculous. We don’t have to “purchase” their publication. The ignorant who know little of contract law and less about the parameters of the Constitution’s 1st Amendment will scream “censorship” and otherwise disply their Constitutional ignorance. They unmask their inability to compete in the arena of ideas. They don’t grasp that censorship is a prohibition on the government, not on those who discriminate in the marketplace of ideas.

Discrimination, a bedrock principal of survival and prosperity; its not surprising that left wingers would have a difficult time distinguishing between discrimination and censorship.

I trust others will join me and choose to stop purchasing the ideas of the dishonest purveyors of fraud. The honest lefty can make valid points without cheapening the debate by imparting misrepresentation.

Aug 16, 2009 - 4:52 pm 105. Chuck Pelto:

TO: adam, et al.
RE: Not Only THAT, But….

When the Left starts complaining about how partisan we are, how intolerant, how much we just want to win, I’d say it’s a sign that we’re doing alright — adam

….they’re demonstrating all the bad traits of their own. In other words they are projecting.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:32 pm 106. Chuck Pelto:

TO: adam, et al.
RE: Don’t You….

apparently, the public option has been declared dead. — adam

….believe it.

This sort of control is too important to let go.

They’ll try again. Maybe even over the next 12 months. Before the 2010 election in which they stand a good chance of losing control of both houses of Congress.

They could….

• Slip in an amendment to some other bill that does the same thing.
• They could try another more subtle approach in another bill of 2000+ pages.

The point being, they’ll not give up. They’ll try again.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.]

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:36 pm 107. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Moho Is….

….courageous teabaggers…. — Moho

….is projecting. As oh so many other progressives bolsheviks do so often when they can’t win a debate on merit.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth comes out.....]

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:39 pm 108. McBride:

Actually moho,according to Rasmussen,54% of Americans polled would rather see no HCR bill passed than ratification of this legislative disaster.How do your neo-commie handlers reconcile that reality check? More lies, obfuscation and deception no doubt.

Aug 16, 2009 - 5:44 pm 109. drjohn:

Nicely done, Melissa

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:01 pm 110. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Samizdat
RE: [OT] Not Quite All of US

….we don’t need to subscribe to review the oppinions of the uninfromed and ridiculous. We don’t have to “purchase” their publication. — Samizdat

Last time I looked, cadets at West Point are required to subscribe to the New York Times.

One brave plebe approached his TAC (Training And Counseling) officer and asked why they were required to subscribe to that disgusting publication: so filled with disinformation and propaganda, frequently directed against men and women in uniform.

The TAC replied, “Know your enemy.”

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Know your enemy and know yourself..... -- Sun Tzu]

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:02 pm 111. Moho:

Steve Sampson–>

You really are retarded. Obama gave two town hall meetings where he answered questions at random. Call him a socialist if you want [and please do, because its only more evidence that you have your head up your ass], he’s more talented than any of the dim-witted cousin-bred hillbillies your party had to offer.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:11 pm 112. Doc99:

The story of Obama’s Grandmother has died a thousand deaths. Healthcare will die but one.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:17 pm 113. Moho:

Samizdat and Commuter–>the funny part is that no one cries harder about the uncivilized discourse of those mean ol’ leftists than the regular commenters here. And I’ve yet to see any of the non-teabagging commenters whine to the moderators about opinions they dislike. Face it, you’re talking about your own folks here. No one whines harder or plays the ref more than your side.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:17 pm 114. goy:

96. BC: – I think Obama really needs to get out at least a Cliff Notes version of the main points of the bill and footnote the reasoning behind them.

So you’re saying even he hasn’t read it? Yeah, that’s probably right.

Too late. As Dr. C already demonstrated to you. That process has already been started by Dr. John Lewis. That analysis has gone viral

Gov. Palin, with only a few minutes and a Facebook post, managed to undo every bit of slimy misinformation BHO’s entrenched, lying Fifth Column media shills put out there. The result was a tsunami of blowback.

The jig is up, BC. Too many people had a chance to read this bill before BHO managed to ram it through Congress without debate. The socialists are losing another round. Own it.

Aug 16, 2009 - 6:34 pm 115. clear mind:

Barry doesn’t have a health care plan; he’s campaigning – will it ever end?

As the wind blows, he’s adrift with the wind and it’s catching up with him. Neither he nor his advisers can recall what they said yesterday, and it doesn’t matter to them. Each day is a new day and they know they have Congress bamboozled. He’s got them scared that his popularity can doom them, but his advisers only wacth their polls, not those showing them dropping like camel dung.

We’re the victims as long as this continues, but, we’re winning and have Barry and Rahm hoping we all fall into the Grand Canyon – isn’t that why he was there today? Looking for our bodies?

Forest Gump said it best… stupid is as stupid does!

That shooting star you see is just those guys being propelled by the flames coming from their a@$#s!

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:05 pm 116. Eric:

Obama is without a doubt a socialist. What surprises me is that he’s unwilling to admit it. He is pushing for a government takeover of the health care market, the energy market, and has taken unconstitutional ownership of banks and auto companies without batting an eye.

Are Lefties so afraid of admitting who they really are? If they deny they are socialists then just how would they define their statist ideology?

The socialist/progressive/liberal/Marxist end game…is quite simply…control. The elitist socialist believes he is uniquely qualified to direct the lives of 300 million individual Americans better than those individuals acting in their own best interest. It is truly breathtaking hubris and arrogance. They crave power like the nobles of medieval Europe. They do not care at all about resolving outstanding problems in the health care market, which they created, but only in taking absolute control over it. Their goal is obvious. They just will never admit it.

The history of Progressives is a history of incrementalism. They never take their eyes of the ball and always are moving forward. I recently finished Jonah Goldberg’s ‘Liberal Fascism’ and it is outstanding. It gives a very concise history of the Progressive movement and its totalitarian roots. I highly recommend it.

The fact that Progressives never abandon their goal can be seen today in the Democrats reaction to the overwhelming push back by We the People to Obamacare. Do they care? Do they seem willing to return to the table and invite the GOP? No, they float the possibility of passing Obamacare via reconciliation. Why? Power.

This is whyt we can never, ever compromise with the Democrats unless the compromise pushes back government. If we give them half of what they want now, they will be back for the other half in a few years. If we give them half then, they will be 3/4 of the way toward their goal. Then it’s only a matter of time before additional compromises delivers them 100% of their original goal.

And then what? What will the Progressives go after once they’ve achieved government run health care? I believe the next target will be the private retirement system. After all, it’s an “unfair” system because those with means are able to utilize more fully options such as 401ks and IRA’s. The next goal will be to establish a new public retirement plan that ensures a “fair, comfortable” retirement for \all Americans.

Progressives never never stop.

What is our best defense? The Constitution. We must demand that all legislation be founded in the Constitution. If we can’t draw a Constitutional line in the sand with Obamacare we may as well forget it exists because the federal government will have broken completely free of the Constitution.

I suggest we remember Jefferson’s admonition “In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”

A fabulous quote.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:25 pm 117. Samizdat:

Chuck Pelto,
Marshall Foch must have stolen the admonition from the Chinese strategist.

I choose to no longer give my money to the Sulzeburger family, same reason not to bother with the trolls, not worth subscrption price for the lousy quality of the reporting and editorial content. I know the opponent intimately, and need no further reports from the front. They have no new tactics or strategy, nothing new in the last 30 years. I can predict their response based upon the facts. Live as a relativist,die as a relativist.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:26 pm 118. AThinkingPerson:

Isn’t it funny that the liberals are all behind the military NOW when the military fits in their “government does a great job running the military so let them run your healthcare” argument?

Where was all of that liberal support during the past 50 years? So now that the liberals love the military, will they allow the ROTC to once again be on college campuses in CA? Will they once again allow them to set up tables during career days at school?

Yeah, just as we all suspected, liberals are hypocrites.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:30 pm 119. venividivici:

Moho,

Face it, the bill is dead. No point in flogging a dead horse at this point. You lost. Even if you think the bill was the perfect solution for the most pressing problem in the world, you lost. Even if we are all retarded beyond belief, you lost. And I won. I hope you feel like crap because that only makes it all the sweeter. I hope you feel like jumping off the nearest tall building, moron.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:30 pm 120. AThinkingPerson:

Moho…. You do Obama proud! Here you are basically representing the liberal mindset and this is the wisdom you offer (#111):

“You really are retarded.”
“you have your head up your ass”
“he’s more talented than any of the dim-witted cousin-bred hillbillies your party had to offer”

NOW do you see why we think all liberals are uneducated, unread haters? Are there any civilized liberals capable of a decent conversation? ANY at all??

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:35 pm 121. Eric:

Obama and his Politburo should lose on Constitutional grounds alone. No where does the Constitution allow the federal government to establish a health care system. Even Medicare and Medicaid are unconstitutional. Not that we can do much about them now.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:36 pm 122. rachel peepers:

Listen up Toto, Blow Mo, Moho or whatever you call yourself,

Here’s what Rachel calls you:

Scum.

The kind that needs to be taken out with the trash and deposited in a nuclear waste facility.

You call Sampson retarded? Are you nuts? (rhetorical question). Steve Sampson is as smart and witty as you’ll find around here.

Sport, you fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down. You don’t have a sense of humor. You have a sense of nasty.

What’s more, your post modern moral relativist diet would make the strongest stomachs on Fear Factor blow lunch.

Worst of all, you’re the kind of cyber coward who, if their mother was endangered by an invading Army, would run the other way like a scared monkey with its tail between its legs.

Even a lengthy stay in the witless protection program couldn’t help you, and your pathetic insights into black holes.

You wonder why you don’t get any respect around here.

Well, the fact is, your kind gets no respect because they give no respect. You’re just mad all the time because I fear your buddies ride you hard and put you away wet. Of course, that’s just a part of your pathogenic makeup.

Maybe it would help if you went back to your kind mother. Maybe she’ll take pity on you and your grotesque mental afflictions.

You, sport, are at a point in your sorry, sordid, seedy, somnolent, skulking life that a crack team of Austrian psychiatrists would have to spend months, maybe years thinking just about you before they could hope to extract a sign of normal behavior from the mental morass you seem to be in.

Go outside. Ride a bike. All you do day in and day out is spew hate and venom on a website that detests your presence. Come to think of it, it would probably only take a paragraph on Daily Kos and they’d throw you out on your ear.

You, unfortunately, write as if you’ve bought a one way trip to Daffyland.

You say ugly things to people over and over. People you don’t know. That is sick. I hope to hell there are no sharp objects in your immediate vicinity.

An unadulterated mental mess, son you need to get some help pronto.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:38 pm 123. Big Red:

78 – ATP. Thanks for link. Read a few pages. Reminds me of a line from the Doors “The End”

“all the children are insane”

Yep, a real freak show on wheels.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:46 pm 124. adam:

“106. Chuck Pelto:

TO: adam, et al.
RE: Don’t You….

apparently, the public option has been declared dead. — adam

….believe it.

This sort of control is too important to let go.

They’ll try again. Maybe even over the next 12 months. Before the 2010 election in which they stand a good chance of losing control of both houses of Congress.

They could….

• Slip in an amendment to some other bill that does the same thing.
• They could try another more subtle approach in another bill of 2000+ pages.

The point being, they’ll not give up. They’ll try again.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.]”

No argument here–I certainly didn’t mean to counsel complacency, just to track the effectiveness of what Malkin is calling the “counter-insurgency.” There has certainly been a retreat by the other side, however strategic and temporary it may be. We should understand how it was forced.

“113. Moho:

Samizdat and Commuter–>the funny part is that no one cries harder about the uncivilized discourse of those mean ol’ leftists than the regular commenters here. And I’ve yet to see any of the non-teabagging commenters whine to the moderators about opinions they dislike. Face it, you’re talking about your own folks here. No one whines harder or plays the ref more than your side.”

A leftist urging toughness and stoicism–not in foreign policy, of course, or for themselves (we haven’t forgotten about all the shrieking about Bush supposedly “questioning people’s patriotism”); just for their enemies, their real enemies (not the Islamofascists, of course), American conservatives. But no one knows better then Leftists that the battle proceeds on the terrain of vocabulary as well, upon which words will define the issues. Speaking just for myself here, pointing out over and over again that the use of the word “teabaggers” shows that the Democrats “political imaginary” is essentially an obscene one, and banishing their obscenity from conservative sites and shaming them should they bring their filthy minds outside of blogs and MSNBC gigglefests is of the utmost political importance. Let Americans factor into their decisions about how much power they want Democrats to seize that today’s “best and brightest” develop their political terminology the same way as the characters in “American Pie” develop their ethical one–out of a pornographized view of the world.

Aug 16, 2009 - 7:57 pm 125. venividivici:

96

No. It’s to address the ever increasing wait times for treatment, especially at emergency rooms, by not having medical personnel and resources tied up with needless readmissions. In other words, it’s to address a current and growing problem, and characterizing it as being something more sinister is either clueless, malicious or both.

Last time I was in a hospital, the people doing the medical treatment and the people doing the admitting were different individuals.

In addition, if the issue were really simply trying to balance workloads, why does the bill also, according to the author of the linked piece, “allow the government to prohibit hospitals from expanding”, when expansion would be a potentially more effective way of addressing the issue of wait times?

You need to get your head out of your hindquarters and realize not everyone who opposes this bill does so out of venality or stupidity. But, you’re probably too stupid to realize that, no matter how many times you’re told.

I’m with Samizdat. It’s clear you people simply aren’t worth the time. I’ve wanted to split the country into two countries for a while now. Reading the absurd tripe you and your cohorts put on this site day after day has confirmed that.

I actually want to see your ideas actually implemented and fail epically, at tremendous human cost to you and all who think like you. I mean, like I want you to suffer Ukrainian-famine style under your Obot government, so that 75 years later, people are still talking about how you and those who think like you took a perfectly good section of the world’s superpower and turned it into scorched earth in just a couple of decades, at a cost of millions dead in the streets. I would go to my grave an even happier man to see it happen to a bunch of scum like you. I just don’t want to have to be involved in any way, shape or form.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:02 pm 126. e:

So far my favorite quote of the whole fiasco was a Democratic Congressman who said, “If we read every bill we passed, we wouldn’t have enough time to do our job.”

Fear -> Anger
Anger -> Hate
Hate -> Dark Side
Dark Side -> Cookies and Dark Chocolate M&Ms

Cheers and fight the good fight,
~2.7

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:06 pm 127. fireyourguns:

Your liberal ship is sinking Moho. Discredit everyone outside of Metropolis at your own peril. Middle America, USA has risen and spoken. Are you listening? Of course you are, hence your desperate and fanatical descent into lunacy… enjoy!

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:09 pm 128. Pragmatist:

We are waiting for your DETAILED documented and referenced response MOHO with all the missing information I mean you would not blindly follow and worship a man that you know absolutely NOTHING about would you. Because of course anyone who would do that would really be an naive idiot wouldn’t he.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:17 pm 129. tanstaafl:

In our country, under the 1st Amendment we are all permited wide latitude regarding our speech.

The first amendment is a litany of those human activities the United States legislature is prohibited from restricting through legislation.

If there’s any question of “permitted” in the First Amendment, it only applies to what the US Congress is not permitted to attempt to inhibit or curtail.

The current President doesn’t appear to have much regard for limitations on the powers of the federal government set forth in the Bill of Rights.

I see many of his moves as an attempt to circumvent restrictions on government power and, the other side of that coin, do an end around the citizen’s Constitutionally guaranteed liberties.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:26 pm 130. Dave:

The president is on record that he wants to implement a government run single payer option. Now that he has to make more than hard core leftists/welfare dependents happy to retain power, he deals in ambiguity until he gets his agenda implemented. So we get nonsense like the idea that a “public option” in which the “public option” gets unlimited subsidy from taxpayers and a direct connection to the regulators will allow private insurers to survive.

Until healthcare reform is done without a “public option” or dead all together, we need to keep the pressure on.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:30 pm 131. tanstaafl:

This is why we can never, ever compromise with the Democrats unless the compromise pushes back government. If we give them half of what they want now, they will be back for the other half in a few years. If we give them half then, they will be 3/4 of the way toward their goal. Then it’s only a matter of time before additional compromises delivers them 100% of their original goal.

The 2002 video where Barack Obama, speaking to the AFL-CIO, declares himself an advocate of “single payer”, certainly bears this out.

In the video, Obama says…it won’t happen overnight, it may take 15 years, (and we’ll hafta be real, real stealthy…)

Incrementalism, one little push, another little push, halfway measures in halfway legislation…eventually, voilà, we’re there.

I’m not too impressed with today’s news that “single payer” is off the table. These people never quit.

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:39 pm 132. Peggy:

Exactly my thinking. In fact my next protest sign is going to be “I want reform not an overhaul.”

Ok, so its not funny but it gets the point across perfectly why I don’t like any 1,000 page bill overhauling health care in this country. A real reform bill would come in at a fraction of that and I’ll bet anyone could be reasonably expected to be able to read it!

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:40 pm 133. fireyourguns:

Are the rest of you good conservatives out there enjoying this new Marxist administrations spinning and scrambling, at being out-manuevered and out-gunned by the “ignorant” likes of Sarah Palin and others? How about the stunning reversal of support by independents who collectively arose to question and challenge the motives of this liberal cabal? It was only a matter of time before this great country of ours put her collective foot down and put a stop to this train wreck! Omnibus was a failure, Stimulus is a failure, Cap and Tax will never clear the Senate, and Health Care will either be totally dismissed, or so watered down that it will, and should look like Republican legislation. Great job libs, you’ve managed to alienate America in only a few “long” months… congratulations, and enjoy the conservative “tidal wave” that will surely wash ashore in November of 2010!

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:47 pm 134. HawkWatcher:

Hey mo, you gutless little twerp, post your address so I can mail you a copy of the US Constitution and a primer on liberty. Post your phone number too, nnnkay? You know…just to verify it’s really your address…it’s OK, I promise…nobody but me will call…nothing will happen to your property…don’t be afraid…

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:51 pm 135. ben acton:

Has anyone noted that using “health-care” is already a capitulation? What happened to “medicine” or “medical overhaul?” Who wouldn’t prefer “health” and “care” to “medicine?” I cannot forgive the O for not having labelled these schemes as “wellness-love reform.”

Aug 16, 2009 - 8:58 pm 136. venividivici:

Great job libs, you’ve managed to alienate America in only a few “long” months… congratulations, and enjoy the conservative “tidal wave” that will surely wash ashore in November of 2010!

Yeah, maybe if they weren’t such d*cks about everything, didn’t overreach and didn’t feel the overwhelming need to unjustifiably talk down to everyone 24/7 (what exactly have these trolls accomplished in life, besides drinking the Obama kool-aid, which is hardly something I’d consider an accomplishment?), the independents that actually voted for Obama in November would have been behind their reform effort.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:16 pm 137. Pragmatist:

Dont know why PJM saw fit to censor my post which detailed the countless number of documents and information which the Obamanation is HIDING apart from his VAULT Birth Certificate. But by doing so it makes my post # 128 look disconnected. so lets try again . MOHO here is a list of just SOME of the documents and information Obambi is HIDING now you must know all about them because as I said before only a naive fool would follow a man blindly without knowing who or what he was. This is a shortened list so perhaps the censors will allow it or maybe they dont want to know about Obambi either lets see.
As it stands, Obama is the only president in history whose birthplace is unknown to the public a fact that would be stated on the actual birth certificate. Interestingly, his family has mentioned two different hospitals in Hawaii as the place of birth.
Obamas refusal to release his birth certificate does mean that Obama remains one of Americas most mysterious and opaque presidents ever.
Obama, for example, has not released many other documents regarding his public and private life.
Many of these documents were sought by reporters, who easily acquiesced when Obama said he would not release them though most presidential candidates release them as a perfunctory matter.
Among the key documents that Obama continues to shield from the public:
Obama released just one brief document detailing his personal health. McCain, on the other hand, released what he said was his complete medical file, totaling more than 1,500 pages.
Obama refused to offer his official papers as a state legislator in Illinois. Nor did he produce correspondence, such as his schedules of appointments or letters from lobbyists, from his days in the Illinois state Senate.
Obama did not release his client list as an attorney or his billing records. He maintained that he performed only a few hours of legal work for a nonprofit organization with ties to Tony Rezko, the Chicago businessman convicted of fraud in June 2008 but did not release billing records that would prove this assertion.
Obama ignored requests for his records from Occidental College, where he studied for two years before transferring to Columbia University.
Obamas campaign refused to give Columbia, where he earned an undergraduate degree in political science, permission to release his transcripts. Former President George W. Bush and presidential contenders Al Gore and John Kerry all released their college transcripts.
Obama did not agree to the release of his application to the Illinois State Bar, which would have cleared up intermittent allegations that his application may have been inaccurate.
Obama did not release records from his time at Harvard Law School.
During the presidential campaign, McCains campaign released a full list of all online donors. Obamas campaign still has not released the names of those who donated at least one-third of the $750 million he raised.

Ironically, Obama accused the Bush White House of being “one of the most secretive administrations in our history,” and chided then-Sen. Hillary Clinton for not releasing her White House schedules.

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:23 pm 138. BC:

To venividivici: You wrote, “Last time I was in a hospital, the people doing the medical treatment and the people doing the admitting were different individuals.”

Which has nothing to do with dealing with needless readmissions — it’s a completely different issue.

Context, context, and what particular problem is being addressed….

And you also wrote, “In addition, if the issue were really simply trying to balance workloads, why does the bill also, according to the author of the linked piece, ‘allow the government to prohibit hospitals from expanding’, when expansion would be a potentially more effective way of addressing the issue of wait times?”

Again, you’re missing the context and the underlying reasons — for one thing, not all hospitals are the same. In recent years there’s been this growth of what can be called boutique hospitals, usually physician owned, that only deal with high profit treatments, and usually catering to the wealthy. Such hospitals are not only not useful for improving overall health care, but may be detrimental by creating a caste system of sorts for health care. That provision in Obama’s plan is obviously targeting this allowing controls for limiting their expansion.

See, calling me stupid is, well, pretty damn stupid, especially considering all the insanely off the mark reasons you and the other twinklebrains keep coming up to bad mouth the bill. Either make the effort to understand it or, ummm, what’s that acronym, with 4 letters, meaning something along the lines of “put a cork in it”….

Aug 16, 2009 - 9:34 pm 139. Will:

BC

I work in a Chicago community hospital as a Registered Nurse in a Cardiac Telemetry unit so I have some idea about the wait times in being treated in ER as well as being admitted to a hospital unit. It all comes down to triage when a person is in ER or in other words, the person who is worse off than you, sicker than you and and in critical condition will always have the immediate attention of the staff. Sorry, nothing personal. Let me give you an example, you came to the ER because you broke your ankle at 7:00 AM, you were seen by the triage nurse and because of your injury, you get to be seen first. The ER doctor ordered xray to check your ankle and the ER nurse inserted an iv line for you and gave 4 mg of Morphine for the pain. The problem begins when at 0702 AM, a 42 yr old patient came into the ER complaining of severe Chest pain , two minutes later, an ambulance arrived transporting a nursing home patient who was noted to have labored breathing , 5 minutes after that, another ambulance came in with a 52 yr old stoke victim , 10 minutes later, a 15 yr old kid came through the ER doors on a stretcher accompanied by his mother , he broke his ankle in 3 places while playing soccer and since it is also an open fracture, he is also noted to be bleeding a lot. 20 minutes later , a 72 yr old patient came to the ER with a massive heart attack. Since there are only 7 ER nurses , 1 charge nurse and 4 ER doctors and 4 ER residents in the unit . 1 ER doctor, 1 ER resident and one ER nurse and the Charge nurse is taking care of the MI, in another room, 1 ER nurse, an ER Doctor and an ER resident are having problems with the nursing home patient. In another room, the 42 yr old patient who had the severe chest pain is now having a full blown MI , so 2 ER nurses , 2 ER doctors ,1 ER Resident, the cardiologist and the Respiratory therapist is now stabilizing the patient and preparing him to be sent to Cath Lab. The ER resident and one ER nurse is with the Stroke patient, another ER nurse is with the 15 yr old kid and his mom .And the remaining nurse is still with a patient who attempted suicide at home. And oh yeah, all hospital beds are occupied and there are more sick people coming in. You will get treated as soon as the unstable patients get taken care of and admitted to the correct unit and hopefully , there will be enough discharges to open much needed beds for you to get admitted depending on your x-ray results.

Venividivici

In my opinion , we need more hospitals and immediate care centers and have financially troubled hospitals stay open by enlisting the help of private companies and charity groups. Hospital expansion is a stop gap measure because without additional hospitals being built,the same problem will reoccur years down the road.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:02 pm 140. Pragmatist:

BC as it seems you love to be informed perhaps you could assist yor compatriot MOHO with answering what is in all those documents that Obambi is HIDING and which are being ignored by ‘libtards’ such as you. You WANT to know who you worship dont you I mean you are not naive and blind are you? Or if you think its just a COINCIDENCE that so much is HIDDEN or that they are IRRELEVANT and the public has no need or right to know about the guy in the White House perhaps you would like to tell us that. Or do you prefer to try and divert attention by calling anyone who simply ASKS to see information a CONSPIRACY NUT and a NAZI just like your leaders do and completely ignore the fact that HIDING things is the REAL Conspiracy.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:03 pm 141. Moho:

Hey mo, you gutless little twerp, post your address so I can mail you a copy of the US Constitution and a primer on liberty. Post your phone number too, nnnkay? You know…just to verify it’s really your address…it’s OK, I promise…nobody but me will call…nothing will happen to your property…don’t be afraid…

Right, nothing proves a person’s toughness better than making empty threats on the internet. Seriously, though, I’ve been told that its generally an indicator of a man with a small package trying to soothe the pain of being an impotent, ineffectual pansy. It’s okay, I don’t begrudge you your therapy. Rail away all you like little man.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:26 pm 142. Moho:

Has anyone noted that using “health-care” is already a capitulation?

Nope. you’re the first person stupid enough such an asinine claim–and that’s sure saying something around here.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:27 pm 143. venividivici:

Such hospitals are not only not useful for improving overall health care, but may be detrimental by creating a caste system of sorts for health care. That provision in Obama’s plan is obviously targeting this allowing controls for limiting their expansion.

Wait, but in the article you linked, the person representing the boutique hospitals said that competition between boutique hospitals and general hospitals was good and Obama said competition between the public option and private insurers would be good. So, why is it good for the public option to compete with private insurers but not for boutique hospitals to compete with general hospitals?

Which has nothing to do with dealing with needless readmissions — it’s a completely different issue.

Yes, I can see how older people who have incredible needs for services due to complex health problems is an issue, but, to me that’s more an argument against any third-party payor system (including Medicare) than anything else. If the woman in the story knew she’d be paying her own way, she probably would’ve forgone that hot dog.

what’s that acronym, with 4 letters, meaning something along the lines of “put a cork in it”….

Right back at ya, sport.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:29 pm 144. venividivici:

In my opinion , we need more hospitals and immediate care centers and have financially troubled hospitals stay open by enlisting the help of private companies and charity groups. Hospital expansion is a stop gap measure because without additional hospitals being built,the same problem will reoccur years down the road.

I have to think that with the demographics of the Boomers aging, more hospitals will get built as their demand for medical care increases. Also, I thought one of the big trends was to put immediate care centers in retail locations, to broaden the number of locations where one could get that sort of care. Or are those something else?

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:37 pm 145. rachel peepers:

Whatever you want to call it. Be it single payer, government managed health care, ObamaCare, health care reform, Socialized Medicine, overhaul; be my guest and call it what you will.

But whatever you want to call it, the American people have raised their voices in unison.

Obama, no matter what it’s called, we don’t trust you with in. Democrats. We don’t believe what you say about it. We don’t want what you’re selling.

Your Public option is no more. This is what it should be called from now on.

D. O. A.

Obama, we were proud of our first black president. But little did we know his governing intentions would be colored with Socialism.

Stimulus I almost bankrupted us. Your attack on free enterprise has shaken our very foundations. Your assault on private health care, maybe the worst trick you’ve pulled, amazingly did what Pearl Harbor did. It’s unified us.

From the salty air of Montauk Point, Long Island, to the sands of Huntington Beach, CA, the people have raised their voices. Let Nancy Palosi call us Nazis till the cows come home. We don’t care. Because the chickens have come home to roost.

You thought you had the power. No, my friend, the power was always in the hands of the people. We had just forgotten that fact for awhile.

Where does that leave the Barack Administration?

Better question. Have we ever before had a lame duck administration that lasted three plus years?

No. But we do now.

Barack, from now on, we’re going to be watching you like a hawk.

We’re not going to be hoodwinked any more by anchors who talk about tingles going up their leg when you’re around.

We’re not going to be mesmerized by people fainting at your speeches. Others hanging on your every word. Nope.

Barack buddy, the worm has turned. The tide has come in. Yes, the chickens have clearly come home to roost. Did you take us for saps? For fools?

Did you think we’ve been waiting around for 200 plus years for a President who would walk us down the garden path of Socialism?

Is that what you thought my friend? Well, you and your bride and your chief of staff and all your office boys have another thought coming.

We don’t appreciate your trying to grab 17% of our economy and make it your personal domain.

Stimulus I was bad enough, almost bankrupting us. Your attack on private enterprise should have been a sign of worse things to come. Your going overseas apologizing for America to every two bit dictator who would listen should have been a giant hint.

You didn’t want to guide America. Keep it safe proud and strong during your watch.

You wanted to run America.

Right into the ground.

Change was the word you used, but nobody with half a brain and a sense of duty, honor and country wanted a change to socialism, quasi as you argue your intent was.

Barack, you betrayed both our trust and your country. And, of course, the American people.

I can’t believe I was so naive as to vote for you. I apologize to America.

What’s more, your arguments for health care reform were so disingenuous as to be comical if things weren’t so serious.

Under your government run system, we’d have had rationing up the wazoo.

Although you promised no rationing, you refused to include a non-rationing clause in any health care bill. That should have been a major tip off that your word about rationing was as reliable as your words about the end of earmarks. Everything Sarah Palin said about your nationalized health care scheme was true.

In describing ObamaCare, yours were the falsehoods.

The fabrications, deceit, dishonesty, deceptions and outright lies were a thing to behold. And condemn.

Over the centuries, there have been historical figures, little men with big, brash, bold, but hellishly bad ideas who tried to convince the people they were some kind of Mozes leading them to the promised land.

Barack, I’ve got to include you in that dastardly list.

By voting for you I count myself among your duped followers. But follow this.

First Lady, Michelle, the people have taken back the power that they forgot they always held. Now, even if you just want to change the drapes in the Lincoln bedroom, better check with us. The powers that be. The people.

Because, you and Barack have shown you’re not worthy to lead this country to the local shopping center.

As I said before, from now on we’re watching you like a hawk.

There’s no denying it. The Barack administration is in power in name only. For it’s demonstrated that it’s not to be trusted.

What you’ve tried to do to this country is wholly unacceptable. Except for our constitution and our traditions, well you get the point.

The thing is, you betrayed so many people who thought you were the real deal. The expectations were so high. The reality was so disappointing.

We thought on that January day a man of impeccable integrity and honesty was being sworn in.

But the reality after only eight months has sunk in.

Barack, you’re not a great leader from Chicago.

You’re just another bum from the neighborhood.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:39 pm 146. Marc Malone:

I prefer healthcare to medicine. I want the people aminiistering to me it’s supposed to be about caring for my health, not practicing factory medicine. Furthermore, medicine is a very limited concept. There are more ways to treat someone than just drugs and surgery.

Of course, these effective home remedies are illegal. Even to claim they work can get you thrown in jail. A doctor can lose his license. Can’t go spreading heretical doctrine, y’know.

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:41 pm 147. goy:

Hmmm…

A figurehead with legendary oratory skills…

A lock on two-out-of-three branches of government…

A filibuster-proof majority in Congress…

A stranglehold on virtually every “mainstream” information source in the nation…

A hoard of sycophantic pseudo-journalists dedicated to utterly destroying opposition to the socialist agenda…

A popular culture dedicated almost entirely to the adolescent morality they espouse…

A higher education system run almost entirely by 60s radicals and marxist ideologues…

A limitless source of funding…

A veritable army of astroturf supporters…

A virtually nonexistent, completely demoralized loyal opposition…

And with all that, the Democrats still can’t get the most important bill of their entire agenda passed.

Is this a great country, or what?

Aug 16, 2009 - 10:49 pm 148. Pragmatist:

We STILL waiting for your answers MOHO dont think we have not noticed you have RUN AWAY whats wrong the question too difficult or cant you think of a response that does not expose you for the naive blind worshiping fool you quite clearly are.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:16 pm 149. Pragmatist:

Well said ‘goy’ # 147 and all absolutely correct what a pity the blowhard ‘libtards’ on here have no answers. They cant even tell you WHY Obambi is HIDING so much documentation and information or if they just think its all a COINCIDENCE they are all hidden or missing or if not and its DELIBERATE why its not a CONSPIRACY against the American people. So come on MOHO tell us an absolutely miraculous unbelievable COINCIDENCE or a CONSPIRACY it has to be one or the other.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:23 pm 150. Pragmatist:

I make no apologies for saying that what the Obamanation and the Dems are doing is EXATCLY what HITLER and the NAZIS did. They will SAY and PROMISE anything at all to get what they want then once thy have got it they will do exactly what THEY want to do. Its the Socialist Totalitarian way of doing things.You cannot make any compromise with them.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:31 pm 151. Robohobo:

Rachel,

Nice take down of Moho or whatever it is. Moho, vivo and some of the other trolls were bound to PO the regulars at PJM sooner or later. I doubt they would have the stones to call me a ‘teabagger’ to my face. They might not be able to stand the pain.

Google Amazon Mechanical Turk to find out what I suspect about these folks. That they are paid posters by the Lefty’s. They seem to light on certain topical posts like flies on poop. Then proceed to argue that you really, really can pick up a t-rd by the clean end.

Aug 16, 2009 - 11:40 pm 152. BC:

To Venividivici: There is a slight problem with opening up new hospitals and clinics — many if not most of the existing ones are barely breaking even or are actually losing money, especially the smaller community type hospital systems. Now that I think about it, there might be another type of hospital that Obama and his people are bearing in mind as being more of a problem than a help — the big prestigious urban hospital system that not only forces higher payouts compared to other hospitals from insurance companies for the same procedures, but have been expanding into the suburbs and essentially raiding the doctors and patients from the the already struggling community hospitals. The Boston Globe ran a lengthy expose of one such situation involving Partners Health Care, which runs Mass General and Brigham & Woman’s.

If there is one thing I most disagree with in regards to Obama’s approach is the lack of real insight as to what’s causing these relentless and massive increases in health care costs in the first place, and why so many hospitals are still struggling financially despite all this. Where then exactly is all this money going to not to the hospitals and their staff? Everybody has pet theories, but no hard data, and the hospitals themselves make finding out very difficult due to all these confidentiality and non-disclosure agreements that they now make all their staff and doctors sign. Granted that Obama’s bill looks like it could much better control such financial shenanigans, but I think that you can never had a enough research and investigation in complex situations where there are enormous amounts of money involved, and it’s very unclear what’s going on with it and who is misbehaving and who is not.

And Pragmatist: I have no idea what you’re babbling about and I really don’t want to know.

Aug 17, 2009 - 5:38 am 153. Anonymous:

Robohobo,

I’d say Michelle and her stablemate have bit off a little more than they can chew.

They’re the equivalent of bugs. And we’re the exterminators.

rachel

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:23 am 154. AThinkingPerson:

Moho…. Doesn’t your local school system start up again soon? I think I hear your bus outside. Go grab your backpack and ask your social studies teacher about that crazy word you keep reading online…. THE CONSTITUTION…. Maybe they’ll be able to educate you better than we can here. God knows we’ve tried. What’s that saying….you can lead a horse to water….

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:23 am 155. goy:

@152. BC: – … Where then exactly is all this money going to not to the hospitals and their staff? Everybody has pet theories, but no hard data, and the hospitals themselves make finding out very difficult…

There’s no mystery if you do a tiny bit of digging and use a little common sense, BC. But you’re obviously NOT INTERESTED in hard data. You only want to demand it of others.

$3.7B revenue on ONE DRUG in only 9 months!!!? And for a drug that didn’t even work as advertised!!??? HELLO!!???? (Side note: the Zetia study also demonstrated that there’s no link between reduced cholesterol and reduced heart disease – a fact which reporting on the study has handily obfuscated. Cholesterol is to heart disease as humans are to global warming.)

Multiply that $3.7 BILLION in revenue by the hundreds of drugs peddled directly to consumers on T.V. and in magazines. Go ahead – try it. Now you have a tiny inkling of how much of our money is being poured into the coffers of the pharmaceutical industry after the insurance industry takes its sizable cut. And be careful to note that I’m not talking “profit” here – just enormous waste and overpricing, all made possible by the fact that there is NOTHING working to keep a lid on the cost of drugs.

Ask yourself this: how the hell do you think the pharma lobby can absorb an $80 BILLION reduction in revenue without blinking an eye? And why do you think the pharma lobby was willing to pour $150 MILLION into socialized medicine propaganda for the privilege of ONLY reducing their extortion by $80 BILLION? Are you completely blind, or just willfully blind?

If you had even the slightest brush with how these drugs are prescribed, day-to-day, using “standards” of care that are functionally equivalent to “oh, let’s try this one – everyone else is taking it”, you’d have some small notion of what’s going on. You don’t. Stop pretending you do.

And what in the world makes you think money isn’t going to hospitals and their staff? Want to know where else our money is disappearing? Check some of the salaries here (p.3). These are average starting salaries for these specialties:

Obstetrics/Gynecology: $332,297
General Surgery: $368,544
Orthopedic Surgery: $613,291
Otolaryngology: $410,505
Urology: $465,933
Cardiology: $583,171
Neurology: $299,615
Oncology: $494,714
Pulmonary Critical Care: $378,947
Gastroenterology: $500,313
Anesthesiology: $388,808
Radiology: $595,833

Price increases encouraged by resource pooling – via the abuse of group comp. insurance policies – have made these kinds of salaries possible through constant, open-loop increases supported by a broken health care market. These people would never in a million years be able to demand this level of income if they had to rely on a free market and a direct relationship with the consumer to set their compensation.

Interposition of the insurance company, which has no motivation to keep costs down (since they just keep raising premium rates and only benefit from the increased cash flow) makes these salaries possible.

And don’t forget – each of these specialists needs a staff to support them. Those folks aren’t making the same killing M.D.s are, but they’re still at the upper end of the nation’s salary range (see p.2).

Get a life BC. You’re too smart to waste your time trolling for socialism.

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:28 am 156. AThinkingPerson:

Darn it goy…now how is BC supposed to argue with actual facts? You know how those pesky things always confound the liberal posters! I don’t think you’re fighting fair. /sarcasm

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:56 am 157. Moho:

Goy–> It seems like our health care system is in a horrible mess according to your own studies. Why didn’t you people do something about it eight years ago?

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:21 am 158. BC:

To Goy (and ATHinkingPerson): Sorry, but those are anecdotal numbers much like multimillion dollar malpractice jury awards, and while they may be a factor, they are totally inconclusive by themselves without knowing their weight compared to other factors.

Again, you guys are ignoring context, which makes your list basically worthless, however seemingly large the numbers might seem.

Let me make this clear: we really *don’t* know what’s behind the cost escalation — there’s plenty of opinion, finger pointing and anecdotal factoids floating about, but there’s been nothing remotely adequately done in researching the matter, which I’ve always found personally appalling given all the talk, talk, talk about it over the years.

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:25 am 159. goy:

@156. AThinkingPerson: – Darn it goy…now how is BC supposed to argue with actual facts?

S/he always seems to find a way. Or, better yet, provides facts that destroy the socialists’ case. A brilliant orator once called the BC/vivo/jharp/Mofo phenomenon “Stuck on Stupid“.

Hey, faced with facts, at least Mofo had the good sense to just give up. BC obviously missed that superior tactical move.

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:26 am 160. goy:

- … those are anecdotal numbers …

LOL!! See what I mean, ATP? Hard data from the media and premier placement firms becomes “anecdotal” when it doesn’t fit the marxist narrative. Clinically, that is known as “Stuck on Stupid”.

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:29 am 161. BC:

To Goy: What “facts” pray tell are you babbling about? What part of my reply didn’t you understand — are you really that clueless about what’s meant by “context” and how you need that to give *any* list of numbers meaning? Here are some more numbers being used to explain rising health care costs, but they too are worthless without context and understanding their weight relative to other factors.

The bottom line is that it’s all no more than he said/she said without serious research. Sorry….

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:47 am 162. Pragmatist:

How typical of ‘libtards; BC says he has not got a clue what we are babbling on about so he /she obviously THINKS the Obamanation has been fully TRANSPARENT and supplied all the documentation and information about his life that has been requested but for the life of her/him they CANNOT remember where that information is in the public sphere LOL Or maybe it just is that YOU are too stupid to even ask. As for MOHO he is just RUNNING AWAY because he has no answer at all he is just here to spew stupid ‘libtard’ propaganda ask him a REASONABLE question and he is finished.

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:53 am 163. Pragmatist:

MOHO we are STILL waiting for you to tell us where all the Obamanations Documents and Records are and just WHY they are being HIDDEN. I mean you would not have voted for a guy you know NOTHING about would you that would have been the STUPIDEST thing for ant sane person ever to have done. So please show us where YOU got access to all the information about the Obamanation that he is HIDING from everyone else. You silence on this matter speaks volumes about you and all other’libtards’.

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:58 am 164. goy:

@157. Moho: – It seems like our health care system is in a horrible mess according to your own studies. Why didn’t you people do something about it eight years ago?

You’ve been misinformed on both counts.

Health care is not in a “horrible mess”. And it’s certainly not the “crisis” the left and the apoplectic media pretend it is in their effort to push their socialist agenda.

And even if that were true today, guess what: we’re not all psychic like you and eight years ago there were other far higher priorities, like cutting taxes to recover from the Clinton-era recession caused by his economy-crippling tax increases, and dealing with the terrorist disaster brought to you by Clinton’s wag-the-dog foreign policies.

And eight years ago, my “people” were doing a LOT to bring health care costs down. Specifically, we were working practically for free (it’s called a “start-up” – something I’m sure you’ve never heard of), developing software systems that ultimately streamlined and simplified hospital AND health care insurance administration, reducing overall costs. I was personally responsible for a system that increased CIGNA’s claims processing throughput by an order of magnitude through the use of advanced messaging technology, OCR and leased telecommunications lines dedicated to the process. What our customers did with that cost savings was not revealed to me.

What were YOU people doing, exactly?

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:03 am 165. goy:

@161. BC: – What “facts” …

The ones at the links I’ve already provided for you. They’re presented in context. When you have some basis on which to dispute them, do post that info. Until then, enjoy being laughed at.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:06 am 166. BC:

To Pragmatist: how much more typical of right wing numbnuts to stomp your feet, knock the game pieces off the table, and start calling names when your “facts” are shown up to be nothing but worthless, random bits of info, that in the case of health care costs have about as much meaning as your local temperature yesterday has to the “facts” of global warming.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:11 am 167. AThinkingPerson:

Again, liberals cannot hide behind facts no matter how desperately they try: “those are anecdotal numbers”.

Lastly, if this is true as a liberal poster claims here today: “Let me make this clear: we really *don’t* know what’s behind the cost escalation”, THEN why the h*ll does Obama think we need to OVERHAUL the entire system? Why the rush if “we” don’t know what’s causing costs to rise? I think I know why. Anyone else?

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:24 am 168. AThinkingPerson:

BC…. Please, feel free to share your “facts” about health care costs.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:28 am 169. goy:

Heh. The ineptitude continues:

The federal government has only reimbursed auto dealers for 2 percent of the claims they’ve submitted through the popular “cash for clunkers” program, a Pennsylvania congressman said, calling on the Obama administration to help speed up the process.

Rep. Joe Sestak, D-Pa., called for “immediate action” to address the problem … [wow, another "crisis" -ed.] …

In the letter, Sestak said only 2 percent of claims have been paid and that four of every five applications have been “rejected for minor oversight.”

… According to sales data summarized by Transportation Department officials, dealers have submitted requests for rebates on 338,659 vehicles sold.

But while Congress just expanded the $1 billion program by $2 billion, the Department of Transportation says a staff of just 225 people is reviewing those claims.

JUST 225 people!!!??? All of 300k claims? LOL!! We used to AUTOMATICALLY process thousands of health care claims a day at CIGNA with a “staff” of nine people.

Don’t worry, I’m sure the feds will do much better at processing hundreds of millions of medical claims once they seize control of the health care industry because, you know, Anna Nicole married for love.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:38 am 170. DinobotPrime:

BC

I work in a Midwestern hospital and I can give you a number of ways why there is a massive increase of health care cost.

1) Medicare and Medicaid delay in payment of hospital services
2)Increasing numbers of self pay patients who are admitted and treated in hospital or use the ER for their check-up and treatment.

These two are the primary reasons why a lot of hospitals struggle financially, it gets worse in the border states and those states with a large illegal immigrant population. Remember, treating self pay patients that are American citizens and legal immigrants cost the hospital money it does not have, add the sick illegal immigrants to the mix and the probable chronic readmissions of all of these groups. The unpaid services alone would cripple the hospital financially. In regards to Medicare and Medicaid, there are two problems, delay in payment and second the payment it gives to the doctors and the hospital does not cover the true cost of the services provided. So in other words, the doctors and the hospital eat up the loss . Combine these two and create a chronic case of these situations and the hospital will have no recourse but to close and file for bankruptcy.
What the hospitals do to stave off financial ruin is this, they increase everything to three to four times their normal cost or in other words, they gouge the paying patients in order to pay for Paul, Mary and Joseph hospital stay and earn a few money for themselves. That is the reason why aspirin cost 2-3 dollars a pill and surgical gauge cost about 4 dollars a piece.

In regards to the first paragraph of your post, I agree with the sentiment, but there is a big problem with those prestigious urban hospital system and let’s add the prestigious university hospitals the mix. They are financially viable as long as there are other hospitals in the area who are there to pick up the slack, but when those hospitals disappear, that’s when those large urban hospital system starts having problems financially and start closing their own hospitals due to massive losses. For University hospitals, it’s the same thing,but their main advantage is this, they can get government help from straight up to the Federal level and of course, the tuition money from medical, nursing, PT , OT and RT students also helps.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:46 am 171. AThinkingPerson:

Re goy #169: I think a Cash For Clunkers Czar is in order don’t you? Then again, maybe not. After all there are JUST 225 people to manage. I guess maybe just a mini-czar is in order. Sort of a Cash for Clunkers Dictator or a Cash for Clunkers Shah. So many opportunities to add yet another layer of bureaucracy and so little time.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:55 am 172. BC:

To (not quite) AThinkingPerson: go back and read #158. Gawd….

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:56 am 173. goy:

@167. AThinkingPerson: “those are anecdotal numbers”.

an·ec·dot·al (ăn’ĭk-dōt’l)

adj.

1. also an·ec·dot·ic (-dŏt’ĭk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (-ĭ-kəl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” (C. Claiborne Ray).
3. Any data which the federal government and/or the entrenched, Fifth Column media has not yet had a chance to misrepresent, obfuscate, ignore or denounce.

Aug 17, 2009 - 9:57 am 174. goy:

@171. AThinkingPerson: – I think a Cash For Clunkers Czar is in order don’t you?

Doesn’t he already have one? I can’t keep track. There are like 30 or more, aren’t there? America elected a President and all we got was this stinking junta.

I understand MO’s personal staff is 22 people, and they’re collectively earning $1.5 million. That was “Change” alright – an increase in 5 staffers and $200k over Laura’s gang. Not bad for someone who has no official duties whatsoever.

I suppose every king and queen need a court.

Between the two of them, they could just dissolve the Senate – like Mossadegh did – and let those 50+ unelected bureaucrats take over. They’re running things anyway.

Sadly, this would likely be an improvement.

Aug 17, 2009 - 10:16 am 175. The Shadow:

Rachel Peepers – Sounds like you have not taken my advice to seek psychiatric help. Your condition can be cured you know

Aug 17, 2009 - 10:20 am 176. Pragmatist:

BC what are you on about I asked you to tell us where is all the documentation and information about OBAMBI that he has HIDDEN and WHY he has HIDDEN them and you respond by talk=ing about Health Care costs come on it there is a numbnut here it is YOU. Who voted for a guy you know NOTHING about. But then you ‘libtards’ are proud to be unquestioning, unthinking blind worshipers aren’t you . We can see that by the nonsense that you post and how like MOHO you do anything to AVOID giving an answer. WHERES THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE and ALL THE OTHER DOCUMENTS the Obamanation is HIDING and WHY is he HIDING them. I have asked YOU to provide the facts behind the Obamanations HIDDEN documents so please tell us or ADMIT you don’t know then we will know just how STUPID you were to vote for him.

Aug 17, 2009 - 10:21 am 177. Delia:

Has California taught the libs nothing????????

Or Ontario, Canada for that matter?

Aug 17, 2009 - 11:09 am 178. The Shadow:

dopeyperson would have made a hell of scientist – He does not believe in statistics that go against his thesis

Aug 17, 2009 - 11:11 am 179. goy:

@176. Pragmatist: – BC what are you on about I asked you to tell us where is all the documentation and information…

Excellent point.

It’s a wonderful double standard, isn’t it?

A copy of a JPEG of a facsimile of an unsigned, unnumbered document that is nothing more than a reference to BHO’s original birth record is considered by his adoring, lemming minions as “proof” of his Article II eligibility to be elected. But revenue figures in the news and compensation data from premier placement company survey reports is “anecdotal” and “without context” (despite the fact that the company could be held liable for fraud if the numbers are wrong).

Aug 17, 2009 - 11:28 am 180. AThinkingPerson:

Re #172 BC …. If I may be so bold as to sum you up BC: You label all information from others as “anecdotal” because you can’t find anything to refute it that will prove you right.

Just wanted to be clear. Go back to sleep now BC. Your kook-aid meter is on E. Time for a refuel. Obama would be ashamed. He would at the very least want you to make up a few “facts” just for arguments sake. It works for him, why not his minions?

Aug 17, 2009 - 11:54 am 181. AThinkingPerson:

Thank you “The Scary Comic Book Shadow”! Did it take you long to figure out how to spell scientist or was it printed on your Johnny Quest lunchbox?

Did you have a point? Any thoughts on Obama’s health care plan being a lost cause? I give you too much credit though. The real question is: Any thought at all?

You’re so predictable.

Aug 17, 2009 - 11:59 am 182. BC:

Figures — I’ve apparently been dealing with some birthers here. Why don’t you guys finish this “discussion” with your neighbors, Mary Moonlandinghoaxer and John Nineeleveninsiderjobber.

For you non-nutcases out there, while I don’t agree with Obama’s methods in presenting his health care case in so far as I would have much rather have seen first a breakdown of where the health care money is going currently, I do realize that this would have been a time consuming and costly investigation, likely even more so than what was done with the banking and stock industry. However, Obama’s plan does seem to put in place mechanisms to better track cash flows, in addition to everything else. In this respect it’s like a store chain dealing with a mysterious “shrinkage” of inventory by instituting better inventory controls rather than trying to specifically find out the person or persons behind it if looks like it would be tricky or difficult to do.

Aug 17, 2009 - 12:51 pm 183. AThinkingPerson:

BC… I knew I was right about you. When pressed for “facts”, you turn tail and run away.

Typical liberal.

Aug 17, 2009 - 1:03 pm 184. goy:

@182. BC: – I’ve apparently been dealing with some birthers…
Appeal to Ridicule. Fallacy. Non-responsive to the point raised.

- For you non-nutcases …
Appeal to Ridicule. Fallacy. Non-responsive to the point raised.

- … I would have much rather have seen first a breakdown of where the health care money is going currently, I do realize that this would have been a time consuming and costly investigation, …
Double Standard. Fallacy. Where BHO’s data? Where’s BHO’s “context”? The Democrats get a pass because backing up their plan would be “time consuming” and “costly”? Uhm… no. No, they don’t.

- However, Obama’s plan does seem to put in place mechanisms to better track cash flows, in addition to everything else.
Who do you think you’re kidding with this B.S.? BHO and his pet Congress just rammed through the largest budget in the history of this country. No one can say where the money is going and less than half the country have been fooled into thinking all that spending is doing any good. There is no evidence whatsoever that this government cares one bit about tracking cash flow – except that which increases their own stranglehold on government.

Oh, they’ll ‘track’ the cash flow alright – by funneling it through the “unified budget” of the federal government – just like Social Security, where the career criminals in Congress can appropriate it for their pet pork projects and support their lifetime incumbencies. And – like Clinton’s lie – BHO can use the additional funds to pretend he’s bringing down the deficit (no chance he’ll ever achieve “surplus” at the rate he’s spending our money).

- In this respect it’s like a store chain dealing with a mysterious “shrinkage” …
False Analogy. Fallacy. This is nothing like that. READ THE BILL:

- The bill amends the Social Security Act
- The government has the power to determine what constitutes an “applicable [medical] condition.”
- The government has the power to determine who is allowed readmission into a hospital.
- This determination will be made by statistics: when enough people have been discharged for the same condition, an individual may be readmitted.
- This is government rationing, pure, simple, and straight up.
- There can be no judicial review of decisions made here. The Secretary is above the courts.
- The plan also allows the government to prohibit hospitals from expanding without federal permission: page 317-318.
- The bill defines “acceptable coverage” and leaves no room for choice in this regard.
- Small businesses—with say 8-10 employees—will either have to provide insurance to federal standards, or pay an 8% payroll tax. Business costs for health care are higher than this, especially considering administrative costs. Any competitive business that tries to stay with a private plan will face a payroll disadvantage against competitors who go with the government “option.”
- The pressure for business owners to terminate the private plans will be enormous.
- With employers ending plans, millions of Americans will lose their private coverage, and fewer companies will offer it.
- The Commissioner (meaning, always, the bureaucrats) will determine whether a particular network of physicians, hospitals and insurance is acceptable.
- With private insurance starved, many people enrolled in the government “option” will have no place else to go.
- This bill amends the Internal Revenue Code.
- Tax surcharges are levied on those with the highest incomes.
- The plan manipulates the tax code to redistribute their wealth.
- Successful business owners will bear the highest cost of this plan.
- Sec. 1123 amends the Social Security Act, to allow the Secretary to identify areas of the country that underutilize the government’s plan “based on per capita spending.”
- Parts of the plan are set above the review of the courts.

And so on. Care to try again?

This is a market problem, not a governance problem. It’s not the government’s job to track business cash flow of a free market. If the feds want to embark on an investigation into the cost of health care, let them have at it. They don’t need to restructure SS and the Tax Code to do that. They’ve already blown millions supporting the global warming myth, might as well apply some of OUR money to something that might one day benefit us. Problem is – no one trusts the government to do this honestly.

Aug 17, 2009 - 2:00 pm 185. BC:

To AThinkingPerson: if you are just going to ignore my prior posts to push your malicious, dumb*ss straw man stuff, there’s really no point in addressing you any further, eh? I suspect you would be happier throwing rocks at birds and squirrels.

To Goy: why are you linking to the same small section of the bill I had already discussed earlier in showing the fallacious reasoning behind the original article? I supposed that’s tied in with your use of the phrase “global warming myth” — have you said Hi to your neighbors, Mary Moonlandinghoaxer, John Nineeleveninsiderjobber, and Micky Wheresthebirthcertificate?

Aug 17, 2009 - 2:44 pm 186. goy:

@185. BC: – why are you linking …

Simple. Because you never actually addressed the points raised there. You simply dismissed the information as “out of context” when it wasn’t. Just as you dismissed real earnings data as “anecdotal” when it wasn’t. You seem to think that by dismissing facts you have somehow rebutted them. News flash: you haven’t.

Up above, what you erroneously claimed was taking stuff “out of context” was simply Lewis’ choice not to reproduce the bill in its entirety – there’s a government web site for that. He listed the pertinent sections and provided all the context necessary to support his conclusions. If you mistook that for taking information out of context, then once again you make it crystal clear that you have no idea how to argue a point.

And the fact that you put blind trust in the global warming myth rounds out your inability to think for yourself quite perfectly.

Aug 17, 2009 - 3:09 pm 187. rrbs:

Medicare is going bankrupt and the Government lies about it.
Medicaid is going bankrupt and the Government lies about it
Social Security is insolvent and the Government lies about it.
If the “public option” is supposed to keep the private insurance companies honest.
Who is supposed to keep the Government honest?

Aug 17, 2009 - 4:29 pm 188. BC:

To Goy: Ummm, you may want to go back to #96.

Aug 17, 2009 - 5:03 pm 189. Pragmatist:

BC I assume by your sneering reference to ‘Birthers’ that you think its perfectly OK to have a President who is HIDING not ONLY his vault Bith Cert but virtually ALL other documents and records of his life. So I persume you can tell us his Harvard Grades his Columbia Grades his Harvard Law Society papers his PRIMARY SCHOOL records his Passport details especially what BT+IRTH CERTIFICATE he used to get it. Oh those wicked Birthers wanting to KNOW something ANYTHING about the most powerful man in the world. But no best to be like YOU and MOHO hey BC heads in the ground ass in the air and singing ‘nah! nah! nah!’ cant hear you. How PATHETIC you are and how typical of all ‘libtards’.

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:21 pm 190. Pragmatist:

So BC is a Glaobal Warmist too well that explains a lot it takes a certain gullible, emotional, hysterical personality to swallow all the Obanmanations LIES so the fact that he/she is a Green NAZI too is par for the course.

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:24 pm 191. Anonymous:

#186 Goy Its amazing isnt it ‘libtards’ like BC and MOHO just throw our comments like ‘out of context’ and ’strawman’ but when asked to provide documents and references to FACTS to support their own arguments they cannot do so. Nor can they tells us WHY the Obamanation is HIDING and paying Lawyers millions of dollars to hide what every other candidate and President had no problem in releasing . As for Global Warming (since changed to Climate Change what is it with ‘libtards’ do they think people are fools change the name then its OK LOL) well an INCONVENIENT TRUTH for ‘warmers’ is that the earth has actually been COOLING since 1998 . Perhaps BC and MOHO can give us some verifiable FACTS to explain why that is so?

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:40 pm 192. goy:

@188. BC: – Ummm, you may want to go back to #96.

Ummm, that’s exactly the post I was referring to. You didn’t refute or rebut anything in that post. Instead, you erroneously dismissed Lewis’ analysis, based on the specious assertion that he’s taken information in the bill “out of context”.

It’s impossible to take the following clause “out of context”, since it’s complete unto itself:

“‘‘SEC. 59C. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS.

‘‘(a) GENERAL RULE.—In the case of a taxpayer other than a corporation, there is hereby imposed (in addition to any other tax imposed by this subtitle) a tax equal to—

‘‘(1) 1 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $350,000 but does not exceed $500,000,

‘‘(2) 1.5 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $500,000 but does not exceed $1,000,000, and

‘‘(3) 5.4 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $1,000,000.”

This clause could stand alone as its own law. No additional context is needed to know what it does. And it does exactly what Lewis stated it does.

Judges and attorneys cite specific sections of a law like this all the time when analyzing and assessing a case, which can be based entirely on one tiny bit or piece of a bill, e.g., “section a, subparagraph 9, paragraph IV of USC blah, blah, blah”, just as Lewis did. The law is written such that the “context” is inherent.

So dismissing Dr. Lewis’ analysis – instead of actually refuting it with any facts or alternative explanation whatsoever – simply because you don’t know how laws are structured, was simply an exercise in intellectual dishonesty on your part. Or ignorance. You pick.

In short: you don’t have a frakking clue what you’re talking about.

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:53 pm 193. goy:

@191. Anonymous: – BC and MOHO just throw our comments like ‘out of context’ and ’strawman’ but when asked to provide documents and references to FACTS to support their own arguments they cannot do so.

At least Mofo tries. Unfortunately, s/he comes off as such a flaming asshat that even if s/he did accidentally trip over a fact that ostensibly supported the validity of leftist ideology, everyone would miss it amidst all the vitriol. Personally, I gave up looking for those tidbits long ago.

Aug 17, 2009 - 7:57 pm 194. goy:

@190. Pragmatist: So BC is a Glaobal Warmist…

Climate Crisistian, as these religious fanatics have come to be known around these parts. They worship climate changes and resulting global catastrophes that have only ever occurred in a computer that’s been fed garbage data and programmed with question-begging algorithms.

Odd sort.

Aug 17, 2009 - 8:29 pm 195. Pragmatist:

Hey MOHO and BC want to tell us how come your ‘Man of the people’ leader and his ‘I hate America’ wife need 26 SERVANTS just to look after Michelle. More than ANY OTHER Presidents wife has ever had and costing over $1m per annum in salaries alone not counting all their benefits? Unlike you guys I can provide a reference for my claims. You will find their names job titles and the disgusting salaries YOU are paying them at the link. Seems more like a Czars Court than an American Presidents Office or a decadent French Court in the 16th Century.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/13827

Aug 18, 2009 - 4:00 am 196. Paul -Indiana:

#1. One small addition to put the last nail in the coffin. Michelle [no pride] Obama.

Aug 18, 2009 - 5:17 am 197. BC:

You guys…. I dismissed the analysis because I showed that it was a shoddy analysis that not only took stuff out of context from Obama’s proposal, but completely misunderstood and misrepresented the reasoning behind it. That’s all I had to do — any further burden of proof is on you guys: if you’re going to make a charge about Obama lying or how terrible the bill is, you better back it up a whole lot better than you have been doing.

Right wingers seem to be under the impression that they can just whip up some list of nutty notions, and the burden of proof is then on other people to provide evidence to the contrary. No. If someone gives you a list of twenty items they believe to be true, and you find and demonstrate that the very first 3 are nonsensical, there is no point in going further. Every time someone shoots down your reasoning or evidence, the more the burden of proof falls on you.

It’s exactly the same as if you cry “Wolf” — it’s up to you to provide the evidence for a Canis lupus lurking in the area, and *not* for me to go out to find evidence that there is none around. Especially if it’s the third time you cried “Wolf!”

And I’m not a “Global Warmist” — I’m just not an anti-science, right wing nut case who thinks that selectively parsing out NASA data out of context (yep, that again) and playing make-believe climate scientist makes me anything other than an anti-science, right wing nut case playing make believe climate scientist.

Aug 18, 2009 - 5:49 am 198. goy:

Looks like AARP members are voting with their wallets on this one.

By the tens of thousands.

And of course, if BHO’s entrenched, lying, Fifth Column media shills at CBS are reporting “60,000″, it’s a safe bet that number is well over 100,000.

Naturally, that doesn’t include those thousands or tens of thousands in the AARP age group (like moi) who will never pay for a membership, now that AARP management has let the mask slip and revealed its real priorities. Tough time for that to happen, what with the Boomers and all.

Guess BHO shouldn’t have openly LIED about getting AARP’s endorsement, eh?

No doubt, the media will turn this into a racist movement of some kind, since the left’s agenda hinges on marginalizing those with any level of moral maturity.

Aug 18, 2009 - 6:43 am 199. BC:

To Goy: sorry, but Obama had not “openly LIED” about getting AARP’s endorsement, and characterizing as such is actually much more of a lie. The AARP actually supports parts of Obama’s health care plans, but did not issue a endorsement of the full plan. During that town hall meeting Portsmouth, Obama pretty much accurately stated several times that AARP supported health care reform. It was during a question and answer period later that he merely overstepped in saying “AARP would not be endorsing a bill if it was undermining Medicare, okay?”

He should have said “supporting” rather than “endorsing”. Thus making it more of a verbal typo.

A real lie would be something like, hmmm….”There’s no question Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda ties.” Now *that’s* a big-*ss lie.

Hope this clarifies.

Aug 18, 2009 - 10:11 am 200. goy:

@197. BC: – I dismissed the analysis because I showed that it was a shoddy analysis that not only took stuff out of context from Obama’s proposal,…

As you’ve already been clearly instructed: you didn’t show squat. All you did was demonstrate your ignorance of how laws are constructed.

You baselessly and erroneously dismissed the analysis because it doesn’t agree with the narrative you’re trying to propagate and you couldn’t actually refute it.

So you erroneously labeled Lewis’ analysis “out of context”.

Try labeling yourself “rich”. Let us know how that works out.

@199. BC: – Obama had not “openly LIED” about getting AARP’s endorsement, …

Yes, he lied. He made the following two statements, citing rationale that was NEVER offered by AARP or any of its representatives (my emph.):

“We have the AARP on board because they know this is a good deal for our seniors.”

“AARP would not be endorsing a bill if it was undermining Medicare, okay?”

These statements are a matter of public record. Also a matter of public record is the fact that AARP never endorsed the bill BHO referred to and never offered the rationale he cited. Neither of his statements was true when he uttered them. He knew it. He lied.

He lied because he thought he had AARP in his pocket and he knew his lemming minions like you would run interference for him. He thought he could get away with it. Just like when he thought he could get away with lying about Caterpillar jobs. He thought Jim Owens would lie for him. He grossly miscalculated, as all inexperienced, inept people do.

What BHO did NOT figure on… didn’t even bother considering – because he’s the most inept, inexperienced individual to ever be elected POTUS – was the AARP membership’s nascent reaction to AARP management’s insulting stance regarding the membership’s wishes (interestingly, no different from asshats like Eric Massa claiming he has no problem voting “adamantly against the interests” of his district on the health care issue). AARP central had to do damage control. And that included revealing BHO’s lies. It was either that or start losing more members.

Try to deflect or squirm your way out of it semantically in any way you like. He lied. What he “should have” said is irrelevant. What you think he should have said is absolutely insignificant. What he actually said is all that matters. And the fact is that he lied. He does that. Own it.

Aug 18, 2009 - 10:54 am 201. BC:

To Goy: Sorry, but not only are you parsing out bits that you see fitting your (extremely wrong) perception of things, and then you’re trying to build a castle out of them. Twist it all you want, but the AARP supports health care reform. Actually, anyone who’s brighter than a snail in beer supports health care reform. The FULL public record supports my contention a wee bit more than yours. That mean ol’ context thing, again….

Aug 18, 2009 - 4:59 pm 202. goy:

To Moderators: what exactly is the problem with this system today, eh?

@201. BC: – … not only are you parsing out bits…
There you go with your ridiculous “out of context”-style B.S. You’re absolutely wrong. I quoted his entire statements. Nothing parsed. Nothing paraphrased. Nothing taken out of context. Live with it.

- … AARP supports health care reform.
Don’t try to change the subject. BHO claimed that AARP endorsed HIS plan. If you’re ignorant of what that means, that’s your problem. But the fact is that they did not endorse his plan. They stated as much on their web site. He lied. There’s no getting around that.

The full public record contains exactly the statements I quoted. BHO made statements that were demonstrably false. He knew they were false when he made them. He lied. And now so have you.

Aug 18, 2009 - 6:46 pm 203. goy:

Apparently this site can’t handle links to FactCheck.org…

@199. BC: – A real lie would be something like, hmmm…”There’s no question Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda ties.”

Really? I almost forgot, FactCheck – peddler of non-probative “evidence” for BHO’s Article II eligibility to be elected POTUS – disagrees with your insipid and pathetic attempt to justify BHO’s lies by deflecting to a factual statement by GWB.

Here’s their take on your mistake (my emph.):

Since the word “ties” can cover any connection, however weak, Bush was in fact stating the truth. The bipartisan 9/11 Commission later cited reports of several “friendly contacts” between Saddam and Osama bin Laden over the years, and cited one report that in 1999 Iraqi officials offered bin Laden a “safe haven,” which bin Laden refused, preferring to remain in Afghanistan. But nothing substantial came of the contacts. The commission said: “The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship.”

Go to their site and pull up article349. This board is too brain-dead to insert the link today.

You can pretend GWB was “lying” based on what you think he was inferring by his statement. But of course we’ve already determined – based on your demonstrated inability to think critically at all – that what you think is absolutely insignificant. And if you’re going to work from that pretense, then you’ll have to deal with all of these folks “lies” as well.

Aug 18, 2009 - 6:54 pm 204. Pragmatist:

Hey BC we are STILL waiting for you to respond on the BIRTHER CONSPIRACY you know the one where people are just asking for information and the CONSPIRERS are spending millions of dollars NOT to allow ANY information of the Obamanators past to be revealed. If you are not sure WHAT this CONSPIRACY is here are just a FEW of the documents the Obamnation is HIDING. Please give us YOUR explanation of WHY he is doing so. I mean you would not be so stupid to vote for a guy who HIDES so much would you so you MUST have an explanation. Dont RUN AWAY from the question because then we will KNOW exactly what YOU are.

Just think of the Obamanations life as if his CLOSE PERSONAL associations with criminals , terrorists and communists and American hating Pastors were not enough. There is no public evidence, no actual documentation, of an Obama birth — none — nada — zero — zilch! It’s the Immaculate Deception.
There is evidence a birth was reported — from data that could have been created any time after the birth — but that evidence has been discredited as counterfeit by at least three qualified examiners.
There’s no evidence of a marriage between Stanley Anne Dunham and Barack Obama Sr. — no “marriage announcement” — no blood tests — no marriage license — no photographs — no minister, judge or guru — no witnesses or guests — no cake — no limo — no one caught the garter or the bouquet — there wasn’t a bridal shower.
The first and only known reference to a marriage appears in Anna’s 1964 divorce filing, a sworn court document that contains demonstrably false statements. There’s no evidence that Obama Sr. was ever served with a copy — Senior was in Africa. Whatever facts Ann Dunham provided to her attorney were her version of the facts of the relationship. Funny thing, one the best documented parts of Anna’s life are her divorces.
There’s no evidence that Anna and Obama Sr. ever lived together except a questionable “birth announcement” and there’s no evidence that Barack Obama Sr. is the father of Obama.
I find the 1972 visit interesting. A lot of things were coming together in 1972. Anna brought “Barry” to Hawaii from Jakarta — somebody got Barry lined up to attend the prestigious Punahou School — Senior was sliding out of favor with his superiors in the Kenyan government — and out of the blue — another coincidence — Senior shows up in Hawaii — “on family business” — the only time the two Obamas laid eyes on each other. What brought Senior to Hawaii — in and out — “on family business.” Was a deal made?
No state, county, city or town has declared itself the birthplace of Obama.
No hospital claims Obama was born in its facility or on its grounds — no doctor claims to be the person who brought the Obamamessiah into the world — no midwife, nurse or nurse’s aid has ever claimed they were present at the blessed event — there’s no delivery room imprint of baby Barack’s footprint.
There’s no original “Certificate of Birth” — none — nada — zero — zilch — and nobody has ever said they saw one — no one has ever said, “I have seen Barack Obama’s original birth certificate.” — no one, except Obama, himself.
On page 26 of “Dreams…,” Obama writes, “I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school….”
Now there’s no birth certificate or old vaccination forms — there’s no scrapbook either — there’s nothing. Remember Obama’s raid on grandmother Madelyn’s typical white apartment, the evening of her death — Obama made sure his life was clean — whatever mementoes and records were in the 86 year-old’s apartment accompanied Madelyn to the other side — their ashes are also in the Pacific — the only real things in his life are in the Pacific — and Michelle was video’d jumping onto Obama in an expression of delight — odd behavior at a burial — why’d she do that?
Do you know what we do have? We got Obama’s word that he’s on the level.
There are no physical paper documents related to Obama during the first five years of his life in the public domain — and, there isn’t a single piece of paper that documents the relationship of Stanley Ann and Senior in the year proceeding his life. There is nothing.
What Obama offers up is an alleged “autobiography” that is so full of lies, misrepresentations and mischaracterizations that it is correctly described as mythology.
People have been know to puff up a resume or two, but few have ever made up a complete life history — and that’s exactly what “Dreams…” is — it’s a myth — Obama’s idealized version of his life — but it’s all made up — like Obama, it isn’t real — but it was first — now, it’s what most people know about him. It’s Obama’s version of the facts — demonstrably so — but he wants us to know that he’s on the level.
Obots say they have documentation — they have Obama’s “Certification of Live Birth (COLB),” which they always describe as a “birth certificate,” and the magic birth announcements — both “discovered” in the summer of 2008. Somebody in the campaign obviously decided that Obama could be nominated and they better come up some documentation — somebody might ask if the guy was eligible.
Obama’s “birth certificate” (COLB) appeared on June 12, 2008 on the DailyKos website without any reference as to who released it. There is no provenance explaining where the “birth certificate” (COLB), with the certificate number blacked out, came from. In Hawaii, birth certificates aren’t publicly available and reporters’ requests for one have been ignored for months. There is no explanation as to which official vouches for its origins or its authenticity.
Hawaii’s Hawaii State Registrar, Dr. Alvin T. Onaka, was asked if Janice Okubo, public information officer for the Hawaii Department of Health, had confirmed that his office produced a 2007 COLB, date-stamped June 6, 2007, with Obama’s birth information on it. His response was, “Absolutely not. No one in our office confirmed it.”
At least one judge has used the Internet COLB to dismiss a challenge to Obama’s eligibility.
And the birth announcements that appear out of the ether on July 22, 2008, raise more questions than they answer. The “birth announcement” is on microfilm/fiche from the Honolulu public library. The microfilm shows a notice placed in the Sunday Advertiser, and dated August 13, 1961. The announcement in the “Births, Marriages, Death” section reads: “Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4.”
The problem is, Orland Scott Lefforge owned and occupied the house at 6085 Kalanianaole Highway. The “Obamas” didn’t live there. Mrs. Lefforge just happened to die 10 days prior to the appearance of the birth announcement that listed her address, so we can’t ask her. But we do know that the next door neighbor told investigators that, “his mama, and his papa never lived there.”
Beatrice Arakaki affirmed she was a neighbor of the address listed. She has lived at her current residence of 6075 Kalanianaole Highway from before 1961 to the present. Mrs. Arakaki told investigators that “his ‘mama,’ and his ‘papa’ never lived there.” Arakaki told investigators that she had no recollection of Obama being born or of the family living next door having a black child born to a white mother.
Not a shred of evidence links the Dunhams or Obamas to Kalanianaole Highway. Kalanianaole only surfaced in connection with the Obamas in July 2008. I don’t think you’ll be seeing a commemorative plaque on the old homestead anytime soon.
There is no evidence of Anna’s whereabouts in July 1961. If we knew where she actually was in July 1961, we would have half the puzzle solved. But we don’t.
We know that Anna lived apart from Senior — he in Hawaii — she in Seattle. Senior never spent one day under the same roof as his namesake. Anna returned to Hawaii after Senior returned to Africa to complete her degree, and begin Obama’s education. She enrolled Obama in the Noelani Elementary School Kindergarten.
Now, get this — Obama’s kindergarten records went missing from the the State of Hawaii Department of Education. Millions of kids go through Hawaii’s kindergartens. Damned bad luck! Obama’s kindergarten records have been “lost.” Just another strange coincidence in a series of coincidences.
This loss is important, because Kindergarten records for original school entry would have contained Obama’s REAL Certificate of Birth and an application with the following:
• His Legal name
• Parents or Legal Guardians’ names
• Date of Birth
• Place of Birth
• Vaccination Records (revealing a timeline to the place and DOB)
And although Obama has had a first-class education, that spanned 25 years, there is only a single document that has ever been released — an application for admission to the Fransiscus Assisi Primary School in Jakarta, Indonesia — the document was discovered by independent investigators.
The Obots attacked that authentic document, because it identifies Obama as a Muslim and a citizen of Indonesia. It’s really something! They love all his phony documentation, but attack the one actual piece of paper that has been released to the public — and, there’ll be nothing else coming from Indonesia.
Our guy in Jakarta reports that on the 3rd of July 2007, U.S. Congressman Eni Faleomavaega touched down in Jakarta, Indonesia on one of those wonderful, taxpayer-paid junkets. According to his Indonesian sources, the “officials” who accompanied Faleomavaega were interested in acquiring any and all documentation or photographs of a young Barry Soetoro for America’s “national archives” and they were offering cash, lots of it. In a show of faith, Barack Obama’s childhood school would be one of the very first beneficiaries of this outpouring receiving thousands of dollars to upgrade the school and for the purchase of computer equipment, thanks in part to the benevolence of this visiting junket.
There followed a lifetime of “missing” documentation — but it must a coincidence — it has to be a coincidence — just keep telling yourself, “it’s a coincidence.”
Obama/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)
Soetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not released
Soetoro adoption records — Not released
Punahou School records — Not released
Soetoro/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)
Selective Service Registration — Released — Probable counterfeit
Occidental College records — Not released and vigorously defended
Passport records — Not released and official government passport files scrubbed clean by John O. Brennan — now Obama’s terrorism and intelligence czar
Just a coincidence?
Columbia College records — Not released
Columbia thesis — “Soviet Nuclear Disarmament” — Not released
Harvard College records — Not released
Harvard Law Review articles — None
Illinois Bar Records — Not released
Baptism certificate — None
Medical records — Not released (unless you count a one-pager from his personal physician saying Obama’s healthy)
Just a coincidence?
Law practice client list — Not released
University of Chicago scholarly articles — None
Annenberg Challenge Board Minutes — None
Illinois State Senate records — None
Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost
Almost 50 years old and there’s no paper trail — coincidence, Would you hire someone with this curriculum vitae? The man is completely undocumented. You don’t know anything about Obama — operative word, KNOW. None of us really do because he and his life are undocumented — an impossible coincidence — and Obama fiercely defends the release of what documentation is available.
Some of us believe that something isn’t on the level and that we are entitled as United States citizens to ask any damned politician who he is, what his politics are, what his agenda is, where he came from and who sent him.
You do know Obama could end all of this with a single phone call — why doesn’t he press the button?
With compliments of http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm

Aug 18, 2009 - 9:59 pm 205. Paul -Indiana:

#204. Good presentation. I wonder sometimes if BO was born or excreted. In that case the paper trail would be long gone.

Aug 19, 2009 - 8:45 am 206. jharp:

That’s good because we need an overhaul.

Consider.

Our expenditure on health care, as a percentage of GDP, is second in the world. (2nd to the Marshall Islands)http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html

The last time it was rated, we had only the 37th best health care system in the world.http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Our infant mortality rate is only 45th. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

Our life expectancy rate is only 50th.https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

I cannot understand why the wingnutosphere has so little faith in the United States, the greatest country the world has ever known, to do better.

Why do you hate America?

Aug 19, 2009 - 10:19 am 207. goy:

@206. jharp: blah, blah, blah – irrelevant statistics – blah, blah … I cannot understand why the wingnutosphere…
OOPS! Can’t make a point without ad hominem fallacy. Fail.

-… has so little faith in the United States,…
OOPS! Can’t make a point without a straw man fallacy. Fail.

- … the greatest country the world has ever known, to do better.
OOPS! Can’t make a point without irrelevant thesis fallacy. Fail.

- Why do you hate America?
OOPS! Can’t make a point without a straw man fallacy. Fail.

jharp, you’re batting 0.00 so far. But at least you posted no outright lies. So you’re doing better than BHO. In this particular case.

.

@205. Paul -Indiana: – I wonder sometimes if BO was born or excreted. In that case the paper trail would be long gone.

BSTMN, ROTFL!! THAT is a CLASSIC!!

Aug 19, 2009 - 11:21 am 208. jharp:

207. goy:

“jharp, you’re batting 0.00 so far. But at least you posted no outright lies.”

4 for 4 = batting 0.00? Only in the wingnutosphere.

You openly admit my assertions are true, all 4 of them, and fail to address why you have so little faith that we can do better.

It is you who’s is batting 0.

Aug 19, 2009 - 11:34 am 209. goy:

@208. jharp: – 4 for 4

4 Failures in 4 Attempts = 0.00.

Okay, so you suck at math AS WELL AS symbolic logic.

Who could have seen that one coming?

- You openly admit my assertions are true,…
Lie. You never fail to disappoint. That’s the lie I was expecting earlier. Now you’re doing almost as bad as BHO.

Aug 19, 2009 - 12:14 pm 210. The Shadow:

Pragmatist – You must not only be a loser since no one but a nut would believe your looney theories – no teven the conservatives on the Supreme Court will give you a hearing, but you want to make sure that as many people as possible know you aer a loser, by continuing to post about it. There are others like you world wide including those who deny the holocaust. I think if we did a pet scan on the minds of both groups, (if they could actually find anything) they would see striking similarities

Aug 19, 2009 - 1:06 pm 211. goy:

- …those who deny the holocaust.

At least there’s some actual… you know… publicly available documentary evidence that proves the holocaust occurred… not just a copy of a JPEG image of a facsimile of a reference to an original document the public has never seen.

Aug 19, 2009 - 1:25 pm 212. Pragmatist:

Shadow I note you have not one word to say about all the documents and information the Obamanation is HIDING no you just want to spew our ad hominem attacks an anyone who criticises your MASTER and merely asks him for some of his VAUNTED TRANSPARENCY. You therefore prove yourself to be what I said an unthinking, BLIND follower and worshiper who voted for a man about whom you KNOW NOTHING. Now that really is a shining example of crass STUPIDITY. You have already accused me of being a ‘holocaust denier’ so why not throw in racist too thats what you CHARLATANS do dont you you cant respond with any logical argument so you attack the messenger and try to denigrate them as if that takes away and excuses the misdemeanors of your Messiah. You are PATHETIC and quite clearly have no logical abilities either.

Aug 19, 2009 - 10:30 pm 213. Pragmatist:

An open CHALLENGE to all the loyal Obamanut worshipers who post on here in his defense. I notice that in doing so not ONE of you attempts to challenge the FACT that all those documents are HIDDEN. So take the list of documents that he is HIDING and give us a point by point explanation why each one is being HIDDEN or alternatively show WHERE that information is AVAILABLE for scrutiny. Only when you have done that can you then throw out your wild accusations of conspiracy nut against anyone. The ones who ARE CONSPIRING are the ones who are HIDING the documents not those merely asking to see them and only a blind worshiper would have the reverse morality to see it any other way. Lest see what you are made of.

Aug 19, 2009 - 10:40 pm 214. Pragmatist:

Oh and just in case you want to pretend you dont know what is missing here is a list .

Here apart from his Vault Birth Certificate e just some but my no means ALL of the OTHER documents and information the Obamanation is HIDING.

There is a lifetime of “missing” documentation — but it must a coincidence — it has to be a coincidence — just keep telling yourself, “it’s a coincidence.”
Obama/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)

Soetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not released

Soetoro adoption records — Not released

Punahou School records — Not released

Soetoro/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)

Selective Service Registration — Released — Probable counterfeit

Occidental College records — Not released and vigorously defended

Passport records — Not released and official government passport files scrubbed clean by John O. Brennan — now Obama’s terrorism and intelligence czar
Just a coincidence?
Columbia College records — Not released

Columbia thesis — “Soviet Nuclear Disarmament” — Not released

Harvard College records — Not released

Harvard Law Review articles — None

Illinois Bar Records — Not released

Baptism certificate — None

Medical records — Not released (unless you count a one-pager from his personal physician saying Obama’s healthy)
Just a coincidence?
Law practice client list — Not released

University of Chicago scholarly articles — None

Annenberg Challenge Board Minutes — None

Illinois State Senate records — None

Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost
Almost 50 years old and there’s no paper trail — coincidence, Would you hire someone with this curriculum vitae? The man is completely undocumented. You don’t know anything about Obama — operative word, KNOW. None of us really do because he and his life are undocumented — an impossible coincidence — and Obama fiercely defends the release of what documentation is available.
Some of us believe that something isn’t on the level and that we are entitled as United States citizens to ask any damned politician who he is, what his politics are, what his agenda is, where he came from and who sent him.
You do know Obama could end all of this with a single phone call — why doesn’t he press the button?


Aug 19, 2009 - 10:55 pm 215. BC:

To all you birther numbnuts:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

Was Obama born in Hawaii? Yes. Does anything else matter in regards to his eligibility to become President? No. Is it well, WELL past the time to STFU and move on? Yes.

Where were you guys when Bush was duping people into believing that Hussein was somehow connected to 9/11? Oh wait — you were and maybe still are the dupe-ees. My bad….

Aug 20, 2009 - 8:40 am 216. goy:

@215. BC: Is it well, WELL past the time to STFU and move on? Yes.

Yet you keep on posting about it (with irrelevant cites and erroneous deflection, to boot).

Funny, that.

Aug 21, 2009 - 12:01 pm

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