Pajamas Media

166 Comments

1. poul:

at long last, something sane and reasonable on this subject.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:27 am 2. Bob Boomer:

So many words to say so little, and advise even less. Sure you don’t work for State?

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:42 am 3. JAZ:

Look I agree with the point that Europe has a vested interest in not letting Putin’s mafia thugs walk all over Georgia. But to think that just because they get the oil from Georgia we have no interest is myopic and wrong.

As Georgia is able to supply Europe’s oil demands, there is greater availability of oil to supply US demands for oil.

If we do not supply the backbone for Europe, the thugs in Putin’s government will walk all over Georgia and Europe, the same way Stalin did during the Cold War.

Last and most important, if Putin’s tactics work in Europe, what is to stop Putin from getting his ally Chavez or Morales to try them with our neighbors in and around Venezuela here in our own hemisphere?

To revert to this ridiculous theories of realist foreign policies in a world so interdependent on dictatorships and thugs for energy is up there with Buchanan’s beliefs that Hitler could be reasoned with and WWII could have been avoided in stupidity.

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:42 am 4. TomJW:

Typical lib, let some thug nation have its way. Don’t get involved. Beating russia again is our business. We let them get away with the invasion, then it’s a complete take over of Georgia. then they go on to the next weak nation, knowing we will do nothing.

Confront now. Make them pay for it now. It will be easier than when they arestronger.

But it is good to know that you, Mark Safranski, like it when a dictatorial nation crushes a democracy.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:00 am 5. Bogdan of Australia:

Again some misguided liberal is trying to blame a bottle and a bottle-shop for an alcoholic’s alcoholism. And again when listing the neo-Soviet failures, he is treating Russian adults like CHILDREN (by puting the entire blame on the West and preferably America), while demanding that the same children to be treated as a responsible adults and partners. What a crap! With the same hipocricy he is puting the blame on Georgian president Saakashwili as if it was something illegal in DEFENDING GEORGIA’S OWN CITIZENS IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. So the perfectly legal in any imaginable aspect action is being presented as a miscalculation and a recless act. What according to mr Safranski should Saakashwili do in the face such a blatant act of terrorism against his own citizens when Ossetian seperatist began shelling Georgian villages under the very eyes of Russian “peacekeepers”? As the Georgian President explained himself, he has many times informed the European Community about Russian acts of provocation on the very Georgian territory and all his calls for an intervention and mediation have been ignored.
In that situation it is obvious that it is not at all Saakashwili’s fault, nor any recless act, but the fully expected EURABIA’s breathtaking cowardice that encouraged Putin and his cohorts to invade that tini country in order to destroy her experiment with democracy and regain a monopoly on oil and gas in the entire region.
Even if Saakashwili keep his head low and absorbed Russian latest provocation, Putin would find another pretext as his troops have already been positioned for the invasion.
Appart from that, why any insane person would be tempted to believe version presented by a KGB (the most barbaric and murderous terrorist organisation in a history of humanity) thug, trained in lies, subterfuge, provocations, sabotage, friend of the East German STASI (another terrorist body), a murderer who doesn’t hesitate to kill his opponents, even when they happen to be citizens of foreign country, and not in the version presented by an educated in democratic America lawyer, who embarked (succesfully) on the almost impossible task of establishing functioning democracy and a market economy in the country savaged by seventy years of communism and then more than a decade of a chaos to which the neo-Soviets have contributed as well?

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:03 am 6. Valerie:

Too late.

America must choose

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:09 am 7. mjk:

So the answer is:
Yes, Russia is bad, but let’s not bother, you know, doing something about it. Let’s just wring our hands like old women and let Russia run roughshod over every other nation in Eastern Europe. Fabulous analysis, buddy.

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:29 am 8. Jarhead:

Thanks for the links to the Russian speaking points.

So, we should be nice to the Russians and nod condescendingly while they rape and loot their way across one of our democratic allies?

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:40 am 9. Jarhead:

Safranski seems to think Georgia and the U.S. are to blame for Russia’s invasion.

Putin gets the primary blame for this mess. The French and Germans who wimped out on admitting Georgia to NATO come in second.

Third are the western know-it-all wimps and useful idiots. Diplomats and journalists who repeat the Russians’ lies and tell us there is nothing we can do, or, blame the victim and America.

Here is the most credible timeline of events I’ve read.

ttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-new-world-order-the-week-russia-flexed-its-military-muscle-902741.html

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:09 am 10. Sergey:

“Russia, however, is not the totalitarian Soviet Union, either internally or as a military threat.”
The word “yet” is missing.

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:09 am 11. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: What’s This??!??!

Another one of Russia’s Pathetic Defenders?

That discussion is down the hall from here and being handily won by the other side.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Another Hydra head to sever and stump to scorch.]

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:14 am 12. dan:

“Russia, however, is not the totalitarian Soviet Union, either internally or as a military threat.”

This seems to be the background (or foreground) to every counsel of restraint with respect to Russia. Unfortunately, this sentiment distracts more than it clarifies and, as in this analysis, leads the observer to the very ’90s complacency the Georgian manuevor ought to shake us.

Yes, of course, the Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union. But history and institutions and habits persist, regardless of the ideological label. The fact is Gorbachev invaded Georgia in 1991, and then successfully installed Russian “peacekeepers” in provinces of nations whom it later intended to reincorporate, whether politically or simply in fact. Oil is also a distraction in this case. Russia does not need to jeopardize its diplomatic strategy – of comity with the West – in order to secure oil revenue derived from Georgian pipelines. Rather, Russia seeks opportunities to reassert its hegemony, however slowly it must pursue those opportunities. This was obvious to we who believe “Soviet” is merely one expression of the same Russian Asiatic conquest-society personality, and now it ought to be obvious to the rest of you. The KGB did not die or even change just because political prudence compelled a name change – or perhaps it was planned that way…

It is in this light that some of us argue that the USA ought to manuevor geostrategically with an eye to Russian containment, and that this Geogrian episode ought to be one catalyst. If nothing else, Russian reality is the prime demonstration of the danger of a strange and cruel power with nuclear weapons. Of course no one argues for sending in B-2s and A-10s and whatnot into Georgia and South Ossetia, but this is a great time for those Eastern and Central European countries not co-opted by KGB excuse me I mean SVR agents to decide to make extravagent demonstrations of alliance with the USA – and I don’t mean NATO, which depends far too much on the lobotimized electorates of Europe, but the USA.

A word about “empire”: empire is reality. The attack on “empire” is simply a relic of the socialist rhetorical divide-and-conquer strategy. There will always be empire, if for no other reason than that small states threatened by states which they cannot resist on their own will always reach out to other states whom they believe can offer protection. Read your Polybius!

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:19 am 13. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: And Speaking of Our Dimocratic Party Friends….

….it would be nice if they weren’t the hypocrites they are today. Like God spoke of the Hebrews of old, “They honor me with their libs, but their heart is far from me.”

Remember JFK’s famous inaugural speech?

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. — President John F. Kennedy

The Dimocrats of today honor JFK with their lips, but their hearts have grown to be small hard stones and very far away from the ideals he espoused almost 50 years ago.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask rather what you can do for your country. -- JFK]

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:21 am 14. misanthropicus:

Mark, as you probably remember, rcently astronomers announced some unexplainable disturbances in Jupiter’s trajectory. Then New York Times and the liberal media cleared the matter – it’s the neocons and Rush Limbaugh who’re messin’ that planet’s orbit.
Mark, thanks for your contribution on the Georgia affair – you sure deserve a place in the NY Times editorial board.

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:36 am 15. B Dubya:

I am an old cold warrior. When the Soviet Union self destructed in 89-90, I had already forseen it from my perspective aboard a fast attack submarine in the Atlantic and Med in 82.
At the time of the dissolution of the Evil Empire, I observed that we had not heard the last of the Russians and that the euphoria we all felt then would be short lived and was probably misplaced. The Russians still had nuclear weapons and even in a wrecked economy, that would some day come back to haunt us via the nuclear blackmail route they have always loved to use.
I was right. Russians are uniquely Russian and there is no other culture like it, except possibly North Korea and China.
Putin is an old KGB apparatchik. SO are his buddies. Only the name of the governmental form has changed, not the substance. Xenophobic to the point of insanity, they want our technology, but not our ideology. That has been the Russian mode of operation since at least Peter the Great. It will take either 200 years to bring them around to civilization; on their current track, Russia and the Russias have only about 75 to 100 years left before they self destruct again because of low life expectancy and low birthrates. Until that happens, though, they are going to continue to be dangerous.

It is better to kick ‘em in the ass now, while they are just settling in to the the next round of Russian totalitarianism, which they are without doubt doing.

Left wing defeatism, a la Walter Cronkite and the writer of this blog article, will only make the ultimate price higher to do wehat must be done.

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:47 am 16. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Mark [the Russian Shill] Safranski

Russia, however, is not the totalitarian Soviet Union, either internally or as a military threat. — Mark [the Russian Shill] Safranski

The Soviet Union died of self-inflicted wounds. But what has risen in it’s place is no different than what was there before.

If you doubt this, please explain away the death of those journalists and activists who opening criticized Russia’s version of Der Fuhrer. Or perhaps it would be better to describe him as neo-Stalin.

Leopards do not change their spots. It’s a genetic thing.

RE: The Red Army

We are not seeing the mighty Red Army that once threatened to storm the Fulda Gap…. — Mark [the Russian Shill] Safranski

So. Tell us the Status of Forces of the Russian Army that we should not consider it any problem at all. Meanwhile, over on that other thread, someone was touting that it was indeed a formidable organization.

It can’t be both ways. One of you is a liar. The question is which one.

RE: Hey! It’s Only One Measly Little Country

….that the competent movement of a few armored brigades into tiny Georgia is cause for Western amazement shows how far Russia has fallen as a great power, not how high it is rising. — Mark [the Russian Shill] Safranski

That’s what they said about Rhineland or Sudetenland, buckie.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Nothing to see here, folks. Move along. Move along....]

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:14 am 17. John Samford:

“I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what.”
Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird, 1960
US novelist (1926 – )

“Above all things, never be afraid. The enemy who forces you to retreat is himself afraid of you at that very moment.”
Andre Maurois
French author (1885 – 1967)

“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.”
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

“There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of
others.”
- Niccolò Machiavelli

“You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war.”
Churchill’s remark after Chamberlain returned from signing the Munich pact with Hitler

Putin is the ‘new’ Hitler. Giving him small countries will just whet Russia’s appetite.
Russia has chosen War.

“War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them
all they want.”
- General William T. Sherman

“It is folly to imagine that the aggressive types, whether individuals or nations, can be bought off … since the payment of danegeld stimulates a demand for more danegeld. But they can be curbed. Their very belief in force makes them more susceptible to the deterrent effect of a formidable opposing force.”
- Sir Basil H. Liddel-Hart

There is no way to avoid war. All the West (NATO) can do is choose our spot. The sooner we draw that line in the dirt, the lower the cost in blood and treasure.
Make Georgia a NATO member and have ALL the NATO countries send 10,000 troops each there. With about 1/4 million troops in Georgia, the Bear will crawl back in their cage.
The Nukes are a bluff. Going nuclear would hurt the West, but destroy Russia. The West would recover. Russia wouldn’t.
The whole thing is a bluff by Putin, just like Hitler’s early moves. Call him and raise.

Are they still there? 12 Days and counting.

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:28 am 18. Teplost:

I agree with B. Dubya. He knows his Russian history. And the disaster that befell Russia at the end of the Soviet Union demonstrates that decades of bad government take their toll and make it all that much harder to create a functional society out of the ruins. And, yes, Russia has been autocratic since the prince of a poor, back-water city called Moscow began the long ruthless climb to political dominance. The strategies haven’t changed much.

However, he is also right that “Russia and the Russias have only about 75 to 100 years left before they self destruct again because of low life expectancy and low birthrates.” Maybe less time than that. And then what? Will we long for what exists now, because the chaos that succeeds it will be more frightening than we can imagine? And what other regions of once stable continents will slide into chaos for much the same reasons? Dangers await us.

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:37 am 19. chicago:

Drill here, Drill now….once domestic oil is in full production, Europe can buy oil from the US and dump their fear of a Russian embargo.

it has been said before, Energy is a National Security issue, Russia’s resurgence is just one of the events that will arise due to energy.

I know, I know, the environmentalist group will be up in arms….SO WHAT! according to them we should go back to the stone age…yup, that makes sense.

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:46 am 20. Lugh Lampfhota:

When I think about Russians, I think about criminals, alcoholics and whores. Why would I expect civilized behavior from this people? Having observed this “nation” for decades, it is clear that the civilized people of the world need to contain and be prepared to fight these descendants of Mongols whenever they brutalize the civilized world.
Russian contributions to the world include all modern terrorism, Marxist totalitarianism, nuclear proliferation and genocide resulting in the murder of perhaps 100 million people. Watching blue helmeted, Russian “peacekeepers” deploy raping, looting, murdering thugs on a civilian population doesn’t surprise me. The weak response of the international community shocks me. The civilized world had better step up to this challenge before it gets worse. And no tool in the arsenal of democracy should be off the table.

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:58 am 21. Oscar Goesto:

The U.S. should send fly-by sorties over Goergia to drop 4 million U.S. citizenships from the air, and then roll in the tanks to defend the Americans living there.

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:06 am 22. John:

“We verbally encouraged Russian democrats but winked at massive corruption and creeping authoritarianism when it suited us to do so.”

I love the way that no matter what the world’s bad guy’s do, we are somehow complicit for “allowing” it. We winked at authoritarianism?

If we don’t oppose Russia’s takeover of a Democratic nation, Safranski will be here in a few years yammering on about how we winked at the destruction of Georgia.

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:26 am 23. coisty:

A common sense article.

The replies, though, reek of fanaticism, fantasism, and bigotry.

When I think about Russians, I think about criminals, alcoholics and whores.

Watching blue helmeted, Russian “peacekeepers” deploy raping, looting, murdering thugs on a civilian population doesn’t surprise me.

Charming stuff. Thank God even the Bush administration seems to have tired of the neocon ideologues.

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:36 am 24. blackminorcapullets:

How many missile attacks over how many more years should Georgia have tolerated?

How many times must we let the Russians shut down strategic internet servers?

What part of “The Kremlin killed 100 million in the last century.” do you not understand?

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:45 am 25. Cody:

Yes. Because any continued meddling in Russian affairs could not possibly result in blowback. For all those who believe we should “do something” about the Russian menace, just remember that Russia could easily “do something” with regad to our missions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and our upcoming invasion of Iran. We’re the vulnerable ones here, not Russia.

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:51 am 26. Cody:

Here’s Thomas Sowell’s take on the Russo-Georgia mess. If your a fire-breathing neocon, then you might not like his take on things. Sowell comes off sounding positively “liberal.”

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:56 am 27. ZEITGEIST:

[...] MARK SAFRANSKI: Let’s not rush into Cold War II. [...]

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:59 am 28. wpw:

I agree that direct confrontation would certainly be impolitic. The Cold War was a long series of battles by proxy. If the Russians want to go back to that era, we could facilitate a little asymmetrical warfare to give the Russians something to think about. After 5 years of dealing with IED, EFPs, etc in Iraq, I doubt there is anyone who understands these weapons better than the US military. I say we send over some SO teams to train up the Georgians and let them have at the Russians. It’s a quagmire! It’s Afghanistan all over again!

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:02 am 29. Luke:

Wow, the comments to this article are (mostly) insane. But I guess that is what you should expect when you publish reasonable analysis rather than knee-jerk jingoism on Pajamas Media. I’d like to know how many people and/or countries the commenters above have compared to Hitler or Neville Chamberlain in the past ten years. I thought that after Saddam, the next Hitler was supposed to be Ahmadinajad? What’s with Putin butting his way in line?

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:20 am 30. Jim,MtnViewCA,USA:

“I say we send over some SO teams to train up the Georgians…”
Agree that our hearts should be on the side of the Georgians. Agree that Mr Safranski sounds like an apologist and blame-America-firster. But Georgia is a small country and would not be treated with anything like the restraint that the US treated the Iraqis. (Go ahead lefties and sputter. But anyone with an objective view will recognize the truth). If Georgia fights back, blood will flow. They should only do so if there is no other choice.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:23 am 31. Ron J:

This has to be one of the most stupidest columns I’ve read in a long time…

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:34 am 32. mwl:

Say hello to the new bear, same as the old bear. He may be smaller and somewhat better fed than the old bear, but he’s still a bear, and no one should be surprised when he acts like one.

There is an op-ed in today’s WSJ by Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister. He makes it clear that Georgia is the price the West must pay for Russian cooperation to address the threats posed by Iran and terrorism. I believe that price is too high.

The U.S. does not want another Cold War. But nor is it in our interests to allow Russia to cast its shadow over Europe for another 50 years.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:36 am 33. davod:

That’s what they said about Rhineland or Sudetenland, buckie.

The Europeans did the same as they are doing now. Give it a couple of winters when the Russians cut off all energy supplies.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:36 am 34. always right:

Let me guess, you are of the school Bush rushed to war in Iraq?

At what point, will you be willing to show the world ‘this time I(we) really do mean business’?

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:39 am 35. TmjUtah:

We don’t face a cold war. We face a mugger wearing stolen clothes and wielding weapons that were obsolete when they were built thirty years ago.

We can face him down now, put him back on the path to world citizenship.

Or we can let him gobble up his neighbors one by one and beat him at a hundred times the cost when he finally goes after a “real” friend.

Wait. What’s that echo???

History. There’s a reason it’s the biggest shelf in the library.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:44 am 36. Beck:

By all means, let’s ease into Cold War II slowly so we make sure it gets good and firmly entrenched, lasting as long as possible. We definitely wouldn’t want to confront this thing head on, take care of the problem before it festers, and maybe prevent CWII from ever happening…

…

Where’s Patton when you need him?

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:45 am 37. Lugh Lampfhota:

By Coisty and Cody’s thinking, John Kennedy was a neo-con.

And Cody, what makes you think that Russia hasn’t been “doing something” with regards to Iraq and Afghanistan since before 9/11? Ya’ll just keep up the excuses for the thief, rapist and murderer down the street. He knows where you live, he just hasn’t gotten around to you yet. He’ll come though, because it’s written in his genetic code. A neo-con will spread the crime scene tape, wipe up the blood and bring the criminal to justice while your friends blame the neo-cons for your demise.

Wolves are circling the sheep but the sheep are still more worried about the sheepdogs.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:47 am 38. AL:

Let me point out one fact to passionate commenters here. Georgia was integral part of Russian and later Soviet Empire for more than 200 years. Georgians contributed in full to all atrocities committed by the Evil Empire, and it is populated by same communists, alcoholics, looters, aggressors, or whatever you claim “Russians” to be. Georgia contributed such nice human being as Stalin and Beria to list of USSR rulers; monument of Stalin still stands on central city square of Gori.

I doubt that pretence of dictator and war criminal Saakashvili for being friend of US overnight made Georgians pure angels.

Same, BTW, is 100% applicable to Ukraine.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:48 am 39. ken anthony:

Cody,

You read, but you didn’t understand. Thomas Sowell is a brilliant man and his point here is true. Our policy has been to talk loudly and carry a small stick. He’s recommending the opposite, speak softly and carry a big stick.

Now there are a few things about that big stick you need to know. First, we have it, but have been afraid to display it. One of the things about showing it is it gives your opponent an opportunity to think. However, if you have undermined your credibility by making your opponent think you would never use the big stick, it no longer has any deterrent value.

Now, if the opponent chooses to ignore the big stick and we fail to use it. Why are we carrying it? It’s expensive and doesn’t do anything. Kind of stupid.

OTOH, if we reeducate our opponent by whacking him on the nose with that big stick. We don’t need to destroy them. We just need to show them the stick every once in a while to remind them that inappropriate actions will likely have a reaction that they want to avoid.

If they turn out to be a rabid dog? Then we put them down for good.

Yes, it takes backbone to do what is right. To not stand by those that stood by us and trusted us would be shameful. Putin is laughing at us right now. He needs an attitude adjustment. It might not be a bad idea to stop the ongoing rape and destruction either. Which is happening as we sit hear, warm and cozy, discussing it. Ya, think?

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:54 am 40. BT:

I welcome a modest return to common-sensed nationalism and Cold War II, since China and Russia are both still totalitarian states, as they have been for centuries.

Increase domestic manufacturing….decrease immigration into the USA.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:00 am 41. Lugh Lampfhota:

Lavrov says that Russia will help the West with Iran? Lugh spews coffee all over the monitor. Does Lavrov mean that Russia will stop providing nuclear technology, weapons and moral support to Iran? Anyone with one working neural network would understand that Russia is helping Iran (and every anti-freedom loving nation) undermine the civilized world. Lavrov is as believable as blue-helmeted, Russian “peacekeepers” that are “securing” Georgia by looting, raping and murdering civilians.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:01 am 42. always right:

AL,

Does your argument give a green light to what Russians did?

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:03 am 43. poul:

a reminder: georgia is not a “democracy” – not any more that russia is:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/conflicts/caucasus/georgia_after_revolution

both are fascist regimes, fighting over rotten bones of the former glory that never was. why should we support the fascist regime headed by sleazy new york lawyer over the fascist regime headed by sleazy kgb spook? if even one amercian life is lost over it, it’d be a travesty.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:05 am 44. Lugh Lampfhota:

Ummm Al,

And Sally was married to Sam for 10 years before Sam beat her bloody, raped her and stole all her stuff. Sally was a mean-tempered, drunken sociopath just like Sam but we just don’t let that sort of thing go on and call ourselves civilized now do we?

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:11 am 45. poul:

> There is an op-ed in today’s WSJ by Sergey Lavrov, the Russian
> foreign minister. He makes it clear that Georgia is the price
> the West must pay for Russian cooperation to address the threats
> posed by Iran and terrorism. I believe that price is too high.

now that’s crazy talk. a threat of irrational islamofascism with nukes is worth much more that the wounded pride of a fascist regime in a forgotten corner of a forgotten region…

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:11 am 46. Teplost:

I also read Thomas Sowell’s essay. He raised a very important point that has been bothering me for some time. If Europeans can afford a lavish welfare state, why can’t they build a credible defense system? The EU was intended as an economic powerhouse to rival the U.S. Well, let them become a military powerhouse too and start fighting their own battles.
And Sowell is absolutely right about another point. We can’t go to war with Russia, it’s not feasible. We do a great disservice to countries when we encourage them to expect what we can’t and won’t deliver.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:16 am 47. always right:

Clear as I am sitting here typing, old europe is truly dead.

The same things will be said (’Let’s not forget Russians have thousands of nukes’) when their army march up to Paris and Berlin.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:20 am 48. Joshua:

Finally, a war with a real enemy where mutually assured destruction (MAD) will apply. Peace through strategic aggression is necessary when you live in a world full of liars, cheats and cons. The list is long and growing and you can take your pick from around the globe. Russian has only one aim and that is to once again be a world superpower. I’m sorry to break it to the liberal socialists in America but being a world superpower to Putin and his cronies doesn’t mean giving away their national wealth to the rest of the world as a handout to two bit dictators for “poverty” programs. It means energy domination and military domination… period, end of story! It is actually refreshing to have a declared enemy that cares about living instead of martyrdom and material wealth instead of heavenly porno with 72 virgins!

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:26 am 49. Dark Helmet:

We should partner with russia and take out china and izslime.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:28 am 50. wpb:

wpw:

I have a few friends that are former SF, and when I asked if any of those “humanitarian missions” left a few folks behind, they just smiled. The advising you suggest is quietly taking place – game on! Death by a thousand cuts can be just as effective as a frontal assault…and the Russians are slow learners.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:29 am 51. Jarhead:

Poul, Thanks for the links to Russian lies. What are they paying you?

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:35 am 52. chicago:

Why is everyone so scared of a cold war? yes, it’s true that Russia has nukes, but don’t forget that the MAD principle is still in play and Russia, no matter how mad and stupid Putin gets, does not want to commit suicide.

Russia’s military capabilities are still inferior compared to the US, they don’t have the same military capabilities that they had during the Cold War era.

They are still a fromidable force, but the mere fact that the US now has a missile defense system that actually works actually scares the hell out of Putin. Why do you think he’s been trying to show military strength thes past couple of years. Putin knows that their nuclear capabilities have been compromised with the new missile defense system, he even tried to have one of the missile and radar site be based on Russian soil and have the US share the technology with Russia.

it is still a dangerous situation, but Putin wants to be able to enjoy the billions of dollars he stashed away over the years (he is among the richest persons in the world because of his corruption, that is a fact). For Putin to commit suicide by using nukes against any country is unthinkable.

MAD is in play and Putin knows it. Russia knows that their military capabilities are, right now, no match against the US military technology. They can’t even put half of their navy out to sea for crying out loud.

Russia is trying to test the limits, but Russia will not do anything that would push the US to activate past Cold War defense tactics since they know that they will not survive any first strikes.

Many Americans have really gotten soft since the cold war ended. have a little faith in your Armed Forces will ya (I was part of it before the cold war ended).

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:50 am 53. Brock:

Mark, if Russia is invading its neighbors, and the US is afraid to do anything about it because of nukes, then we’re already in Cold War II. There’s nothing to do to avoid that, because it only takes one side to start a war, and Russia has. We have at least two choices:

1. Take Georgia back by force. Not gonna happen though; where would we get the troops?

2. Containment II. But this time maybe Poland and Ukraine can be on our side of the Iron Curtain. Move Ramstein AFB to Poland and the Sixth Fleet to Crimea. Modify NATO to a unified-EU command and military structure, with EU troops forming its corp and supported by US and UK Fleet. EU/NATO troops (not separate French and Italian regiments) would then establish the EU’s borders with Russia.

Once contained with hard power we can try other “soft power” means of reforming Russia from within until it voluntarily chooses to join the “community of nations” that peacefully engage in trade and development.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:58 am 54. Georgia, Russia and America’s interests « The Eclectic One:

[...] Russia and America’s interests I just read a terrific article on the Georgian Crisis I would heartily recommend to [...]

Aug 20, 2008 - 11:09 am 55. Freddie Funky:

Following the article – shouldn’t the push be then to get Georgia into the EU? If we have to strong arm anyone why not the weakspined European states. Let the EU countries defend their supply lines. OR if they want the United states to defend them, it can be done, but what is in it for the United States then?

Aug 20, 2008 - 11:31 am 56. Joshua:

Nationalism, oh nationalism what a cool drink of water you are on a hot day! Let us stand up again with moral clarity and fight a coward that doesn’t know they are a coward (the islamo-facists know they are cowards)until they are faced with their own mortality.

Hurry and take advantage of the strategic and tactical lessons we’ve learned in Iraq. Especially how to train illiterate and lazy men of fighting age how to live with integrity and honor. This would solve our illegal alien problem by trading American citizenship for mandatory military service or face firm and swift deportation.

In additition, much like releasing thugs, criminals, gang members from Iraqi jails and successfully training them to fight for their country, we could do the same thing here with all the pot smokers and crack dealers that are ruining their lives and families by trading them freedom for enlistment in military re-education. Hard work and discipline build character. Training camps create jobs and grow local economies. The worst that could happen is what we’ve got now.

Grow the military ranks exponentially by requiring mandatory military service for all men & women up to the age of 50 (I’m 46). Start a mass marketing campaign describing the forces of evil we face today in an historical context of the evil we have defeated! Establish a clear and present danger for any country that is considering the downfall of the United States of America by educating, training and equiping our citizens in what it means to fight for our very existence in a ruthless and brutal world.

In this process, effectively improve American education and test scores, American nationalism and patriotism, American health, nutrition and well being, America’s safety and national interests while handling the constant flow of illegal aliens from around the world who want a job, education and to be part of the American dream of being on the winning side of the global equation. If you don’t have a plan to win in life, you are planning to lose by default.

Lastly, building a compulsory national military training program and selling (yes, selling) the truth of evil in history and to the present we draw a bright white line down the middle of the street with liberal socialists who want to destroy America from within. Our peace through strategic planning, education and aggression will also put all the Jihadist sleepers in this country on notice that they better pack their lunch if they want to establish their caliphate here because it aint gonna happen without fight, and I mean a fight we’re in to win.

Once we’ve prepared our national military families we can then do as a previous post suggested and drop American citizenships documents by the plane load in places like Georgia and the like to grant them opportunity to participate in our proven self-defense initiative in their home country. And then, as the old saying goes, “If you stay prepared, you don’t need to get prepared.” It’s really rather simple and would be effective on so many levels. You want to fight about it?

Aug 20, 2008 - 11:32 am 57. Walt:

Let’s not have a Cold War II? Well, why not? Why not let’s just take another run at the problem, this time with a little more clarity of purpose.

I figure that Cold War I was the consequence of confusion of purpose and values at the end of WWII. We thought, in WWII in Europe, that our enemy was national socialism, and not all flavors of socialism altogether everywhere. That’s because we had too many Russian apologists and socialists of our own in the State Department, in universities, and in newsrooms. Still do. They just don’t call themselves socialists and they probably mostly don’t even know they are socialists.

Our Cold War objective evidently was to tie the game because many of us feared the other side being seen as a loser, despite the fact that socialism is not a sustainable system without coercion.

I figure that we are sixty years smarter, now, and Cold War II might be the right thing to do, tactically and morally.

Aug 20, 2008 - 11:37 am 58. Pierre Legrand:

We might want to be a bit careful in assuming that the Soviets are gone…after all there was never any sort of purge. Wouldn’t we have expected it?

Take a look at this bit and then google the name of the Defector for an education into the sort of thinking that actually goes on in intelligence.

Yet someone had predicted glasnost and perestroika, in detail, even before Gorbachev came to power. This person’s analysis of events in the communist world had even been provided to the Agency on a regular basis.

In 1982, KGB defector Anatoliy Golitsyn had submitted a top-secret manuscript to CIA. In it, he foresaw that leadership of the USSR would by 1986 “or earlier” fall to “a younger man with a more liberal image,” who would initiate “changes that would have been beyond the imagination of Marx or the practical reach of Lenin and unthinkable to Stalin.”

The coming liberalization, Golitsyn said, “would be spectacular and impressive. Formal pronouncements might be made about a reduction in the Communist Party’s role; its monopoly would be apparently curtailed…. The KGB would be reformed. Dissidents at home would be amnestied; those in exile abroad would be allowed to take up positions in the government; Sakharov might be included in some capacity in the government. Political dubs would be opened to nonmembers of the Communist Party. Leading dissidents might form one or more alternative political Censorship would be relaxed; controversial plays, films, and art would be published, performed, and exhibited.”

Golitsyn provided an entire chapter of such predictions, containing 194 distinct auguries. Of these, 46 were not soon falsifiable (it was too early to tell, e.g., whether Russian economic ministries would be dissolved); another 9 predictions (e.g., of a prominent Yugoslavian role in East-Bloc liberalization) seemed clearly wrong. Yet of Golitsyn’s falsifiable predictions, 139 out of 148 were fulfilled by the end of 1993 — an accuracy rate of nearly 94 percent. Among events correctly foreseen: “the return to power of Dubcek and his associates” in Czechoslovakia; the reemergence of Solidarity” and the formation of a “coalition government” in Poland; a newly “independent” regime in Romania; “economic reforms” in the USSR; and a Soviet repudiation of the Afghanistan invasion. -Golitsyn even envisioned that, with the “easing of immigration controls” by East Germany, “pressure could well grow for the solution of the German problem [by] some form of confederation between East and West,” with the result that “demolition of the Berlin Wall might even be contemplated.”

Aug 20, 2008 - 11:44 am 59. airbound dude:

wpb :

ur commments made me laugh

i’m sure that the ruskies will learn to fear an IED. Cheap. Easy to Use. Deadly effective. and the article about sending javelins and stingers is not bad either

plus lets send the georgians some night vision googles to even things out.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:07 pm 60. chicago:

The cold war was won by the economic might of the USA. the arms race was just the tool to bring about the economic demise of the USSR. Socialism could not produce the same economic growth that capitalism gave the US and eventually destroyed the USSR’s economy.

what needs to be done right now?

first and foremost, ensure the strength of the US dollar. develop enrgy resources that we have within our borders so that our allies can not be susceptible to any energy embargos by Russia. bring back the former strength of the US Armed Forces. finally, fast track the membership applications of LATO coountries into NATO.

yup, the liberal would be screaming and ranting about that strategy. that’s just tough! we’ve been lulled into a false sense of security and allowed our country to become as soft as our European “allies.” if you’re the last superpower in the block, you don’t go soft, you get tougher since everyone will be shooting at you. That’s just the reality of the world. as Barack Obama himself said (as much as I hate to agree with the empty suit) – “Evil does exist.” Now, what are we going to do about it? we can whine all we want, but if we don’t have that proverbial big stick, Russia will keep thumbing their nose at us.

when you’re faced with a bully, you don’t go crying home yelling foul. you stand your ground and stop being pushed around. history have shown us time and time again that appeasing bullies never, ever, work. why in the world are we doing it now?

these are just my opinion of course.

later all.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:15 pm 61. dan:

The comment that Russia demands Georgia in return for help with Iran and continued cooperation on terrorism is indeed true – and could not be a better demonstration of another core aspect of Russian deception-statecraft: create a problem, then offer your help as a solution. Or, in this case, create the problem by supplying Iran with nuclear technology (or NK with nuclear technology), then invade Georgia, and then say “Ok we’ll stop sending nuclear equipment if we get to keep Georgia.” Which is of course an absurd way to go about things unless you can count on the spineless object of your aggression to use the excuse you hand it to do nothing.

And this is the core of the Russian-KGB strategy: they know very well our electorates want them to do nothing, and they know even if our leaders do do something – Bush, for example – that leader would face such automatic outrage that not only would the original aversion-mindest be reinforced, it would be augmented by the fall of the politician who would oppose them.

This is a state of political character referred to in Soviet strategy as “demoralization.” That is, you cannot make common sense decisions in your own best interests because you have been confused by subversion. You cannot make sense of information, cannot draw the obvious inferences, because your own faith in your government and your nation and its history has been weakened and made a dubious basis for resolute action. Instead, you perform the rhetorical escape evacuation into “international institutions,” which in the discourse are given emotional resonance out of all proportion with their ability to act. They are after all only constituted by *nations* – the very entities whose discreditting led to the popularity of international institutions to begin with!

Clever!

And so we have NATO, which cannot agree on a draft resolution; we have the EU, which is prostrate before Russia because it has no credible military capability or will, and because it is utterly dependent on Russian oil; we have the UN, which is easily prevented from action.

The problem is not Georgia, although that certainly is a problem for the Georgians. The problem is every few years peels back more layers of the Russian deception, but the demoralization is so far along that every year also brings fewer and fewer people who can resist the sops Russia throws to it. Look at how the switch between Medvedev and Putin was orchestrated – and what was the reaction? “Oh those silly Russians…” Ha. Well, we’ll see what happens next, I guess.

I advise Pajamas readers to go to Wikipedia and look up The Patrice Lamumbua Friendship University, and see how many international terrorists were “educated” there by the KGB. Go ahead – and make your own inferences.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:40 pm 62. uburoisc:

I have long suspected that the decades of purges that wiped out successive generations of the best of the Russian people left them with a sadistic, stupid, aggressive, uncritical gang of drunken robots. When the best and brightest are wiped out again and again, what remains is incapable of building a viable civilization.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:09 pm 63. FD:

Yuck, lots of wannabe or has been cold warriors run amok on this thread.

They finally found a reason to pretend to be relevant in the modern era. Ignore them all.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:15 pm 64. pringles:

I like Georgia. I like Georgians and their superb hospitality. I have several times travelled to that beautiful country. But I wouldn’t lift a finger to save it from the Russians.

What cause would we be serving? Democracy? Ha ha.

This Olympically corrupt statelet is not a law-governed democracy. President Mikheil Saakashvili’s nauseatingly named Rose Revolution was a putsch achieved by an orchestrated mob, followed by an election so shamelessly one-sided that our supposed hero got 96 per cent of the vote. The only excuse for this was that previous elections had been rigged, too, which of course they had……..

Do we really want our young men fighting and dying for years to come to save this dubious creature from his own unhinged, wilful conflict with the Kremlin?

You might think not, but McCain. In an amazing demonstration of unfitness for office.

He wants Georgia to be allowed into Nato, so committing this country to come to Georgia’s defence if it is attacked. He wants to do the same for Ukraine.

Will someone send this man an atlas and a history book? When will our political class stop trying to grow hairs on their teenage chests by starting wars and deploying forces we no longer have?

Why should we get entangled in this? What business is it of ours if Russia wants friends and allies on its borders, rather than a weird Nato alliance, kept on life-support long after it triumphantly achieved its purpose. What is Nato for now? Does anybody know? If they know, will they say?

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:21 pm 65. Chuck Pelto:

TO: FD
RE: Soooo….

“Ignore them all.” — FD

…what part of Russia do YOU hail from, comrade?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Do you go drinking with neo-neocon? He went to university in Russia. Moscow State, as I recall. Are you a fellow alum?

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:23 pm 66. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: pringles, Anyone?

“When will our political class stop trying to grow hairs on their teenage chests by starting wars and deploying forces we no longer have?” — pringles

Another latter day Bolshevik heard from.

They’re crawling out of the woodwork like so many louses, drawn to the warmth of this discussion.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You know you're getting close to the target because they start throwing more flak at you. -- USAF Truism]

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:33 pm 67. pch1013:

effectively improve American education and test scores, American nationalism and patriotism, American health, nutrition and well being, America’s safety and national interests

… and let us unite to combat any threats to our precious bodily fluids!

I yield to no one in despising Russia and almost everyone therein, but some of this Cold War rhetoric is a bit overwrought. When NATO and the EU both expanded to within a few dozen klicks of St. Petersburg, the Russians hardly uttered a peep; they certainly didn’t make invade Estonia. So why Georgia? Why not Latvia or, more pertinently, Azerbaijan?

1. Low-hanging fruit.
2. Revenge for Kosovo.
3. The pipeline.

I believe that once Putin & the Bear have got this out of their system, Russia will stand down.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:34 pm 68. cedarford:

chicago:
Drill here, Drill now….once domestic oil is in full production, Europe can buy oil from the US and dump their fear of a Russian embargo.

Wishful thinking.
There isn’t enough oil to make America fully energy independent, let alone become 400 million European customer’s oil reservoir to tap. And just reducing our dependence from 72% to a more managable 30-40% with oil shale and most environmental obstructionist laws negated (not a certainty by any means) will take over a decade to happen. And we have to contend with mass immigration adding mass new American energy consumers – 363 million by 2030, 435 million by 2050.

Besides, the other big problem is that the energy supply even more critical to Europe than oil is Russian natural gas and the fear in Germany, Poland, that they could have 45% of their supply cut off. We can’t help them in that area at all, even if we wanted to.

========================
Oscar Goesto:
The U.S. should send fly-by sorties over Goergia to drop 4 million U.S. citizenships from the air, and then roll in the tanks to defend the Americans living there.

Your knowledge of
Logistics
Geography
The US Constitution, Congressional Law & Defense Pacts (which we don’t have with Georgia)
Basing rights needed to deploy US forces in region
Soviet air defenses

Isn’t really that good..at all.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:37 pm 69. dan:

“Ignore them all.” Ah, right – because history has shown that the fellow-travellers and the hippies were right about the Soviet Union and Marxism-Leninism. If political prostitutes like you actually had a shred of moral sensibility you would be too ashamed to speak in public. Shut your piehole.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:39 pm 70. uburoisc:

The trouble is, FB, to paraphrase Trotsky, you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. The Cold War never really went away, anymore than war went away; now, thoughtful people will return to Thucydides, Machiavelli and Hobbes for the new insights about old problems. As for the soft-power, third-way hippie bullshit about diplomacy, NGO’s, and world opinion that has been peddled for the past couple of decades, well, that’s over.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:40 pm 71. Chuck Pelto:

TO: pch1013
RE: Well….

“I believe that once Putin & the Bear have got this out of their system, Russia will stand down.” — pch1013

…history has already proven you wrong on THAT idea.

Witness Hitler and Rhineland, followed by the Anschluss, followed by Sudetenland, followed by the rest of Czechoslavakia, followed by Poland, followed by…what…how many millions dead?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Go back to school. And get a clue.]

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:43 pm 72. Keith Kunzler:

Try this on for size: Putin today declared that if we move forward on our agreement to install an anti-missile defense in Poland, Russia’s response would “…go beyond diplomacy”.
Now, I’m not nearly as wise a Comrade Safranski in foreign affairs, but I would say that amounts to an open threat.
If that won’t do, Putin’s puppet, Medvedev, had one of their admirals say that Poland would be “subject to a strike – absolutely”.
So – Russia invaded Georgia and we did nothing but talk. Having confirmed their suspicions that we would do nothing about that ally, they then upped the ante to Poland – an even closer ally of the U. S. and a NATO member.
Perhaps Comrade Safranski can enlighten all us rubes about how we can appease our way out of this one. Putin has pushed more chips into the middle of the table and he is betting that we will fold – again.
Since I am frightened to death about being labeled a “neo-con crazy”, I certainly don’t want to suggest that we call his bluff. I just want to hear the appeasement approach.
One other question: Where does Comrade Safranski suggest the appeasement stop after Poland? Is there any point at which he would suggest action, as Russia begins to gobble up the other former satellites of the USSR?
Just Curious.

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:44 pm 73. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Renaming This Thread

I would suggest that the thread be re-titled from…

Let’s Not Rush into Cold War II

…to…

Let’s Not Rush into Cold War II….

….Let’s Stroll Down the Lane until Cold War II Jumps from the Bushes and Mugs US.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Putin and company would certainly enjoy THAT!

Aug 20, 2008 - 1:47 pm 74. Pierre Legrand:

What should our strategy be in regards to the Russia/Soviet Union?

We win, they lose.

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:04 pm 75. Pierre Legrand:

Russia, however, is not the totalitarian Soviet Union, either internally or as a military threat. We are not seeing the mighty Red Army that once threatened to storm the Fulda Gap; that the competent movement of a few armored brigades into tiny Georgia is cause for Western amazement shows how far Russia has fallen as a great power, not how high it is rising.

I believe those statements are terribly misguided. Would we have declared the Nazis purged and their philosophy defeated after the war had they installed Heinrich Himmler into the Presidency? What sort of absurdity forces us to believe that the Soviet Union is no more…they said so?

Would the we have allowed the Nazis to simply say so?

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:14 pm 76. L:

Are we sure that Georgia provoked the Russians;\? Remember, the Afgans were in pretty much the same predicament when the Red Army rolled in to “help” them put down insurrection.

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:18 pm 77. pch1013:

“[Go back to school. And get a clue.]”

Thanks for that penetrating analysis, Chuck(le).

Still, it would be interesting to know why Putin is leaving Azerbaijan and Latvia alone.

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:44 pm 78. FD:

Correction: Lots of *cowering* hasbeens running around here.

(You have to be scared to take Russia seriously today.)

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:55 pm 79. Brian:

There are some good posts here.Cold war 2?Nah.But we arent going to disregard the threat without looking into it.I was just thinking today that the whole situation reminds of Pinky and the Brain.Yknow the two mice that plot to rule the world?And always somehow get thwarted by reason logic or just plain timing.Russia’s nuclear threat capability has been degraded and they know it.Their military is no match for Western forces if Nato decides to arm itself to the teeth.I somehow think it wont necessary.We can sell ukraine and georgia weapons and advised them but the rest is up to them.
The SS-21 missile is a 70 km range rocket capable of chemical,nuclear or conventional warheads.I also think the Patriot system can shoot it down.So once Russia leaves Georgia territory move a few batteries into Georgia and problem solved.Nothing the russians can do about it.Whats that?They want to place missiles in Syria?I guess the russians forgot that Israel can still attack syria since there continues to be no peace treaty between the nations so it would be another russian blunder.I wouldnt be suprised if we just rode it out and let the nationalistic fever die down in Russia and let the Russian people do away with Putin themselves.

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:58 pm 80. Chuck Pelto:

TO: pch1013
RE: Why?

“Still, it would be interesting to know why Putin is leaving Azerbaijan and Latvia alone.” — pch1013

Can you say, “One thing at a time”? I knew you could.

If he went for it all, all at once, it would be blatantly obvious even to the most oblivious individual…such as you…{nudge-nudge, wink-wink}, what was happening.

And, if he moves relatively slowly, as Hitler did in the 1930s, more than likely the rest of the world will fall the same stupidity it fell for from Hitler and gang.

And then we have to go through all that greater-orders-of-magnitude horror we experienced in the early 1940s.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Based on your failure to grasp that history, I have to ask….

….WHEN and WHERE did you graduate from high school?

Aug 20, 2008 - 2:58 pm 81. jvon:

I think if anything positive comes of this, it might make our European allies actually act like allies again, and possibly even spend some money on their own defense.

The Poles seem to get it. Will the Germans? The French? Maybe.

Bush is right to assume a “wait and see” attitude towards this. We can afford to. Whether the EU can afford to — you are correct — is open to debate. But the EU did not elect Bush and never would have.

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:01 pm 82. RogerCfromSD:

I’m tired of war. Mainly because I am sick of hearing the liberal whiners bash our country at every turn, while fellating other countries in the process.

If Russia wants war, then give them war. If they threaten us, give them one warning. After that, any provocation should be dealt with severely.

I grew up terrified by the prospect of nuclear war, of ice ages, and now global warming. Thanks to liberals and their media partners. Frankly, I am tired of being tired. Tired of being afraid the end is neigh. As far as I’m concerned, liberals can shut up (or the rest of us simply ignore them) and stay out of the way when it comes to matters of American security. Obviously, they do not have our country’s best interests at heart.

So, while another world war is not my desire, bending over and taking from behind as liberals are wont to do is NOT how Americans should handle aggressive nations. Putin is bluster now, but who knows? He might buy into the American media’s propaganda that America is too weak to do anything any more. If his rhetoric and military actions escalate the situation, then bombs away!

Fighting is better than living in a perpetual state of fright.

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:04 pm 83. poul:

Jarhead, these are not russian links. how much are georgians paying you?

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:05 pm 84. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: FD and Reality

“Correction: Lots of *cowering* hasbeens running around here.” — FD

I wonder how much time, if any, FD has done in the Armed Forces of the United States.

Probably nothing that any REAL man would consider ’significant’.

“You have to be scared to take Russia seriously today.” — FD

Last time I looked, Russia had nuclear weapons and the means of delivery.

I guess FD, based on his statement, is either ignorant or oblivious to reality or….dare I say it….much, much worse.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Even the bravest deer fears the hungry bear.]

P.S. But we’ve got more to face the Russian Bear with than a pair of hooves and maybe some antlers. We’ve got nukes too….and more and better trained combat-veteran soldiers on active duty than Putin can field.

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:06 pm 85. B Dubya:

Putin is giving the game away, perhaps.
Like Hitler in Germany in the run up to WWII, much of Putin’s Russian power base comes from his perceived rabid Slav nationaism, which the old party appatatchiks love because it reminds them of the glory of the Soviet empire. If he puts too many chips on the table, and it looks like we may call him, my guess is that his current sock puppet President will grow a set and take him out. Putin only wins if we cave. If Putin wins, say hello to the new Joe Stalin, and say goodbye to peace until the Russians complete their trek to extinction. If Putin loses, he’s a dead man and his killer will be Medvedev.

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:38 pm 86. dan:

except, ultimately, the purpose of controlling the national media (as putin & “united russia” do) is to never lose. some network (not fox) last night actually did a little expose on how russian media cover the event – pretty interesting. reminds me of the people who think the new york times is infallible. you just tell them shit, and they go “YEAH!”

Russia is not on the brink of Stalinism. Russia is a new experimental totalitarianism behind an updated facade. Instead of revolutionary vangaurd and “Soviet Power” you have this media-state and republicanism, “Russian style.” It’s like the deception of “the Democratic People’s Republic of X” taken to a whole new level. The operators are the same, but the image is more flexible, deceptive, consonant with international norms, more difficult to impugn.

Look at how Gorbachev, the KGB’s tool brought up to do exactly what he did and taken for a liberal by the naive West (aren’t they all?), characterized the Georgian thing today in the New York Times editorial. Even if Tshkavili or whatever that city’s name is *was* consigned to flames by the Georgian military, Russia does *not care* about such things, and therefore it cannot even be a credible pretext, let alone an actual justification, for going into Georgia. This Russian utter cynicism is incomprehensible to the Western liberal – except of course where the USA and “imperialism” are concerned, which is how the Politburo, KGB and international Left have designed it.

Wake up people – even if we KGB paranoids are wrong in the details, these things don’t *just happen.*

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:08 pm 87. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Will Putin….

“….much of Putin’s Russian power base comes from his perceived rabid Slav nationaism…..” B Dubya

….re-enact Clancy’s premise from Red Storm Rising? In other words, dusting off Eisenstein’s classic Alexander Nevsky; digitizing and remastering the audio with contemporary orchestration in order to stir up that famous Slavic blood?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. We can still kick his proverbial fourth-point-of-contact. Hollywood can do better.

Oh…wait…the socialists in Hollywood might do it FOR him…..

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:13 pm 88. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. Where is the Terminator when we REALLY need him?

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:13 pm 89. pch1013:

Chuck(le): Once again you fail to answer my question — if Putin is so adamant about protecting ethnic Russians’ rights (lots of them in Latvia, not too many in Georgia) and in seizing oil, why did he go after Georgia and not after Latvia or Azerbaijan?

Someone with your obviously superior grasp of history and geopolitics should have no trouble with this question.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:14 pm 90. John Samford:

Wishful thinking.
There isn’t enough oil to make America fully energy independent,

Demonstrating ignorance again, I see.
If you had said ‘liquid OIL’ I could have agreed but by making an inclusive statement that is factually inaccurate, you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/rpt/OilShale.html

1.5 TRILLION ( as in1.5 thousand billions) 5 x the Reserves of Saudi Arabia. And that is just one ‘field’ in Colorado.
Utah and pisssibly n. Dakota have more. Then there are to OIL sands which stretch from Alberta (Canada) down into Montana.
When non-liquid reserves are included, America has the largest known OIL reserves in the world. China has a bunch too. Only the USA has the technology to convert those alternate OIL sources into OIL.

Find out for youself.
Google Shale OIL, OIL from Coal, Tar sands or any of the alternative OIL sources.
I’ll bet you still think that OIL comes from dead dinosaurs. That theory is as dead as the dinosaurs.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:27 pm 91. Chuck Pelto:

TO: pch1013
RE: Heh

“Once again you fail to answer my question — if Putin is so adamant about protecting ethnic Russians’ rights (lots of them in Latvia, not too many in Georgia) and in seizing oil, why did he go after Georgia and not after Latvia or Azerbaijan?” — pch1013

Obviously you never got above 8th grade in your public education.

I used the socratic method. And you didn’t recognize it.

So….

…where and when did you go to elementary school?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[For additional information, please re-read this message.]

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:27 pm 92. pch1013:

“I used the socratic method.”

As I recall, Socrates wasn’t too big on elementary-school insults or general snarkiness, or at evading relatively simple questions either — something you’ve now managed to do three times. Care to try for a fourth?

Anyway, back to Hitler and Putin. The seizure of the Sudetenland followed the Anschluss by a mere 7 months; the invasion of Poland followed less than a year later. So where are we now vis-a-vis Putin — at the Anschluss stage, the Sudetenland stage, or the Poland stage?

Regardless, if we accept that Putin = Hitler and that they’re on similar timelines, then it will become very clear within a few months whether Putin’s invasion of Georgia is part of a larger pattern, or just a tantrum, like the one you’re about to throw in response to this post.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:36 pm 93. John Samford:

“Chuck(le): Once again you fail to answer my question — if Putin is so adamant about protecting ethnic Russians’ rights (lots of them in Latvia, not too many in Georgia) and in seizing oil, why did he go after Georgia and not after Latvia or Azerbaijan?

Someone with your obviously superior grasp of history and geopolitics should have no trouble with this question.”

MINE! Although I think the infield fly rule might be in play here.
Strategery, as our cowardly leader George would say.
With Georgia, they get the ONLY pipeline into Europe that they don’t already control (for now, old plans are being dusted off and teams assembled as I speak. A pipeline thru Jordan or Afghanistan/Pakistan were alternates to the one thru Georgia. The Rape of Georgia assures that they WILL be built).
You also have the response factor. Not only was Georgia one of the weakest ( Russians are cowards as well as thieves and wouldn’t dare attack anybody more then 1/10th their size), but it was the farthest from the herd, so to speak.
Remember it took almost a week for the Russians to over run a tiny country with an army less then 1/5 th of what the Russians fielded. There was no help for Georgia because it would have takn to long to get enough ground troops there to matter and Gates was afraid to go with air power alone.
One of the Baltic states could have been reinforced overnight with anti-tanks units (including AH-64D’s, which would have put an end to any Soviet, errrr…..Russian invasion that involved more the walking), 2 days by regular army units.
The final decision point would have been that the 58th Army is the best the Russians have, with the highest percentage of professional ( non-conscript) and experienced soldiers. Remember Russia has been doing to Chechnya what Georgia was doing to South Ossiteria for the last 10years.

So you have the confluence of Strategic objective, easy job and best tool. Training started for the operation in July, with a start date anytime AFTER the Olympics got underway.
ALl that was needed was a Hitler type ‘inccident’ to give Russia an excuse.

They still there? 12 days and counting.

Aug 20, 2008 - 4:46 pm 94. John C. Gardner:

At last some sensible thinking about the events in Georgia!

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:13 pm 95. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: pch1013

“As I recall, Socrates wasn’t too big on elementary-school insults or general snarkiness, or at evading relatively simple questions either — something you’ve now managed to do three times. Care to try for a fourth?” — pch1013

Okay…

…you’re silly looking and your mother dresses you funny.

End of discussion.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Don't look now, but the Universe is laughing at you.]

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:15 pm 96. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. I wonder if he’ll get ‘that’ one…..

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:16 pm 97. pch1013:

@ John: Thanks. So my assessment upthread wasn’t too far off… I was just missing the “best tool” part. Though I still think “revenge for Kosovo” is playing at least a small role, if various statements by Russians and Russia apologists are to be believed.

And your assessments of the Russians’ weakness and cowardice suggest that Putin’s aspirations and capabilities are not exactly of Hitlerian dimensions.

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:16 pm 98. AST:

I don’t see us as “rushing” into anything. Russia has challenged the West to do anything about its bald aggression toward a harmless Democratic neighbor. If the invasion of Kuwait could not stand, neither should this one. It’s about seizing control of a major source of oil to the West and rebuilding the USSR.

Georgia, moreover, is one of our true allies in Iraq. They deserve better than this.

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:23 pm 99. cedarford:

coisty – Charming stuff. Thank God even the Bush administration seems to have tired of the neocon ideologues.

Pretty true. By now it must have penetrated even Bush’s stubborn brain that being seduced by the Neocons and the Sharanskyite folks that argued for endless wars to “save the world” for Western-style freedom and democracy even if it had to be shoved down their unwilling throats
wrecked Bush’s Presidency, his reputation, and his Party’s control of Congress.

And, as time goes by, the Neocons and their dwindling band of true believers have tended to become even more self-discrediting as they become angrier, more desperate, and more strident for demanding new wars.

“Attack Iran for Our Special Friend’s sake!!”

Well, doesn’t an attack on Iran entail far less US casualties and costs if Russia is solidly with us, even avoid the horrific casualties by avoiding the need for a major war?

“No, because we must attack Russia and kill them to help our freedom-loving Georgian thugs defend themselves from the Ossetian and Russian thugs!”

But what about Russian cooperation in Central Asia and on Caspian energy?

“We don’t need them. After we attack Pakistan and finish off the radical “Islamofacists” in WWIV, we will have all the freedom-lovers in liberated Pakistan and Afghanistan and Iran throwing flowers at us”.

But if you attack Pakistan and Russia, how do you fly or truck in materials to support our troops in Afghanistan with each supply line now closed off?

“Coward! Appeaser! Freedom of noble peoples everywhere is on the line!! And we also need to immediately start wars to liberate the democracy-hungry people of Syria, Venezuela, Burma, and invade the Congo, Sudan for the sake of humanity”

Wow! Doesn’t that mean taxes must rise to pay for the new tens of trillions in war expenses that will just about destroy the dollar and won’t a Draft be needed for all the American gunfodder required to die in wars of Neocon Imperial Adventure? Not to mention a direct war with Russia over a shitty little country or two might cost us WWII level casulaties, even go nuclear?

“No! Tax raising is communist! The Draft is absurd because children of wealthy necons might be affected! And the new demand for War with Russia on top of the 14 or so other wars we think should start is one we have absolutely no choice in. It’s Munich! It’s Chamberlain all over unless we bomb Russia or “surgically” kill their soldiers in Georgia! It’s the Georgian thugs as oppressed Czechs. Eventually the Jews of our Special Friend will be exterminated just like 60 years ago! Cowards! Appeasers! We must attack! Err… or you must attack because we Neocons and our kids have demanding careers outside the volunteer military option!!

Quite the Neocon argument.

“Appeaser. Russian plant! Jew-Hater! Freedom-despiser! Islamofascist! Support our Hero Troops to fight more wars! Remember 9/11!”

Funny so few Neocons or their kids or their fan boys enraptured with what they think is “cakewalk” military conquest are lining up at recruiting stations..

Aug 20, 2008 - 5:23 pm 100. Jules Crittenden » Ivan Wants To Play:

[...] Mark Safranski, Pajamas Media, “Let’s Not Rush Into Cold War.” [...]

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:23 pm 101. Clob:

The key indicator in this affair is Sweden. They are NOT nato. They responded first with the strongest allegation still. Russia is proving themselves to be a wooden nickel in terms of strategic partner. All russia had to do was pull out on 8/10 and it would be easy to forgive–in fact, that is all they still have to do. Are they? Have they?

The fact that they are not–would you trade your family for the greater good of another nation? Then how can you in good consciousness suggest that another do the same. I am no Georgia apologist, kicking the mob boss in the shins is not a good idea. And so, I suppose, the lack of vital ‘interest’ is why no US troops are there -now-. But to suggest walking away from it? what?

I cannot believe people did not see this coming. Anybody with any clue of Georgia/Russia had to know that at any given day a conflict was going to spark. I think what is surprising is how quickly the soviet era hardliner has returned. Its a bit like Mars Attack. “Stop! We are your friends!’ *ZAAAP* ‘Welcome, friends of earth!’ *ZAPP*

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:48 pm 102. colleen:

Russia has the ability to destroy the US and Europe in 30-40 minutes (all Medvedev or Putin has to do is press a button).

So, hopefully, they won’t see this thread and understand how much some of us apparently hates them.

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:58 pm 103. Kevin:

Owing to the hour of night and the vast amount of comments, please excuse me if I am repeating someone else.

Anyone else kinda getting the feeling we’ve been down this road before. Like the Berlin Airlift of ‘48, The Berlin Crisis of ‘61. Not to mention the Cuban Missile Crisis in ‘62. The Russians like playing brinkmanship, why not join in the fun. Of course it would take a president with some big brass ones to pull it off. Having a hard time seeing any around.

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:41 pm 104. Michael T:

To my liberal friends, it shoukd not escape your attention that the flag may have changed, but the Russuans are still the Russians. Also Putin was a KGB thug; he still is.

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:12 pm 105. philip thomas:

What are you a communist or something? Grow some balls and act like an American not an Amer I Can’t

Aug 20, 2008 - 10:27 pm 106. Russian Bear:

It is amazing how many narrow-minded, politically illiterate, ignorant, and I dare to say, stupid people are commenting on this site! I knew that most of the Americans were not good in Geography and World history, but to learn that there are so many people with superficial knowlege, not capable of normal logic and reasoning yet speaking about politics, is something new for me.
It really looks like most of you here think that the Georgia, the Russia is involved with is your Georgia, with Atlanta the capital. I think some guys here can not forget their fears when in 60-th they were digging shelters in their backyards to protect themselves and their pets from a nuclear attack by the Soviets. They still smell the stench of their shitty pants.
Relax guys! Change your pants and forget it.
You Gergia is not gonna be hurt!
Russia is not the Soviet Union!
The Soviet Union was an ideologically motivated state. Communism was a kind of religion. Communists were believers. Like today’s Islamic jihadists. They professed the victory of the communism worldwide, and therefore, the need to bring that victory about. That was the same idea like the American idea of bringing democracy to everybody. Even by the means of bombing. That was why the Soviet Union created and maintained the East block and was involved in every confrontation with the USA, their main capitalist-imperialist rival.
Russia now does not have any ideology. No East block. Modest military force. Weak economy. It is not going to expand her ideas or territory. There is some rise of Russian nationalism, yes. But Russian nationalism appeared the last among the former Soviet republics. By the way, we warned all those Georgian-Estonian -Ukrainian and so on, nationalists not to awake the Russian one, or else… They did not listen, and are whining now.
But, lets go back… What are you guys screaming about? Nobody is going to take your loved Georgia. This war is because of attitudes and about attitudes. Georgia betrayed the 200 hundred years of Russian protection, and the benefits she enjoyed, they forgot about Russians sharing good and bad with them. They want in NATO now, they want the USA to be their friend and protector. Well it is their, Georgian business. But there are two small nations, formally under Georgian rule, Abkhazia and S. Ossetia, which love nasty Russia and hate nice Georgia. They do not want in NATO, they do not want Georgian rule, they want to be with Russia. And this is our, Russian business. Not yours. So, in a short time you are going to get your loved and nice Georgia back well and sound, though stripped of her separatist regions. Georgia will not have unsolved problems with her neighbors any more, and this is an important condition to meet the NATO requirements. So, we are kind of helping Georgians in that.
What else… Russia is not going to restore the Soviet Empire. Do you know that Russian loyal ally, the Republic of Belarus and President Lukashenko personally were begging to join Russia and to restore the kind of the union they had in the USSR, but Russian political elite refused? And Belarus is more valuable than Georgia. It is more developed economically, strategically located, has pipes through which Russian oil and gas goes to the West Europe. You are screaming here like Russia is going to take over the whole world! I wish Russia could… Alas, the time of conquests was over in 1945. Everybody but idiots unerstands that. Now it is time for the nations to split. And your idea about Georgian pipe allegedly so needed to Russia… What a joke. The pipe goes through Azerbaijan and Turkey too… Your horror fantasies that if Russia gets Georgia she will not stop till she gets South Africa and America are ridiculous. I translated a few comments from here and posted them on Russians sites. They had a lot of fun there.

Aug 20, 2008 - 11:45 pm 107. poul:

nah, the comparisons with the cold war are utter idiocy. russia, unlike soviet union, doesn’t have any ideology which could compel the gullible masses outside its borders, and without that, it’s powerless. peacenik demonstrations of 60s or 80s are not coming back, there are no dozens of russian clients in un voting by command from kremlin, and no western newspaper will print rosy colored pictures of modern day gulags, like new york times used to.

i’ve seen cold war, i lived through cold war, it’s not cold war, it’s war of the thugs.

Aug 21, 2008 - 12:32 am 108. Clob:

Laughable. I’ll have to remember that russian tanks crushing georgian police cars are nothing to fret about. Threatening Poland and the Ukraine–hah, just kidding fellahs. Using market commodities to throw temper tantrums, hehe just part of life. Just a ‘little’ bit of nationalism you know? No big deal, no threat.

If Russia is so benign, explain when Russian tanks will leave Georgia. Explain why Ukraine being in NATO drives the Russian conservative element crazy, if the USSR mindset is truly dead.

Also, looking forward to hearing about open elections, a press free from government oppression and free markets not run by the state. Please conclude with how defense of ‘citizens’ with passports is a workable international policy, and how it differs from past claims that resulted in global conflict.

Aug 21, 2008 - 4:36 am 109. dan:

The “no Cold War” crew is distracted by the absence of an extravagant ideology. It is true there are no more missile parades under banners of Lenin and Marx. Communism, however, and especially Marxism-Leninism is simply highly rationalized violence, and little else. As history conclusively demonstrates, no actual Communist leaders were as concerned with the “workers paradise” part as they were with the “kill all the bourgeois, priests, old regime, counterrevolutionaries, intellectuals, and recalcitrant peasants” part. “Communism” is not strictly necessary. Pan-Slavism works in some situations; simply intimidation works in others; in most, subversion and infiltration work. The Marxism-Leninism of the USSR was also a strategic burden, focusing the attention of adversaries who would otherwise be unfocused – as you now see. Above all, Moscow can count on the ignorance and indifference and fear of most Americans, who after all are far away. Has the Olympics-obsessed media even made one mention of the cynicism of one Olympiad-participating nation launching an attack on another during the very opening ceremony dedicated to world comity? Not one that I heard.

Unfortunately for analysts, Moscow has always been an enigma in the exact way it functions and in its exact intentions. It is wrapped in a maya’s veil of Asiatic intrigue, mystique, and occlusion. But its essence has always been Awe. And it does not necessarily require a big, overt, flamboyant ideological costume to pursue hegemonic goals that Americans ought to be concerned about – at least enough to become acquainted with a kind of thinking that really is both alien our own and very effective in its native lands. I’m not saying we should invade Georgia, I’m only saying we should at least recognize what such an event wants so badly to teach us. The interceptors in Poland is a good idea, though.

Aug 21, 2008 - 5:28 am 110. Valerie:

Who was it that was saying that the Russians were going to leave Georgia in a day or two? What day is it now? Thirteen?

Aug 21, 2008 - 5:34 am 111. Clob:

To Mr. Safranski, the original poster, something to chew on.

The thesis of your argument is that Georgia doesn’t matter and we need Russia to help us on security matters. All well and good.

But we must also consider “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

The unbearable level of propaganda of Russia / USA / EU notwithstanding, Ukraine, Poland, Georgia and the other Baltic states must be considered in this light. What are the unalienable rights of these nations? Is the intimidation of Ukraine and Poland right or wrong, from a neutral, free– if not humanist–perspective?

Only from that position can it be decided what the correct course of action is. Sometimes, the correct course of action is difficult and costly, but often times that cost must be borne if we are to stand for what we believe in. If we decide that truth, in the spirit of goodwill and with aim of freedom and liberty, is a cause worth supporting, that it is beneficial for humanity as a whole, it does not mean security is abandoned nor is war the final outcome. National security should not be a weight in decision, as your article implies, but a weight in action. To abandon others in the face of injustice is a mistake.

My opinion is that while outright war is to be avoided at all costs, fledgling democracies cannot be left to the devices of a neighboring nation state intent on influencing politics via force or economic intimidation. I absolutely do not claim that the USA, EU or even any of the aforementioned baltic nations have any moral standing for judgment on this matter, a common Russian argument, but that does not mean free thinkers across the globe can’t ponder the subject.

Aug 21, 2008 - 6:13 am 112. Chuck Pelto:

TO: colleen
RE: Try….

“So, hopefully, they won’t see this thread and understand how much some of us apparently hates them.” — colleen

….not to be so stupid.

I don’t hate the Russians. Nor do I hate Putin nor Medevedevdevdedveskiy. I don’t even hate these shills around here.

I just don’t trust them to act as good friends and neighbors in the international community.

And the ever building body of evidence supports this theory. Witness Georgia.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear as potential causes of war until communication is permitted to flow, free and open, across international boundaries. -- Harry S. Truman]

P.S. I’m waiting for Putin to allow a fully free and function press as his first step towards achieving that great goal.

Well…

….maybe if he’d just stop murdering his critics as a first step….

Aug 21, 2008 - 6:54 am 113. poul:

i cannot help but marvel at people who pronounce that unalienable rights of these nations is to brutally oppress other, smaller nations within their borders. they’re usually the people who at the same breath spew racist crap about these smaller nations – we’ve seen many examples of paid georgian agents describing how each and every ossetin is a thief and a thug and deserves georgian tanks to roll over him or her.

truly irony is lost on some people.

Aug 21, 2008 - 7:09 am 114. poul:

Chuck,

>I’m waiting for Putin to allow a fully free and function press
>as his first step towards achieving that great goal.
>maybe if he’d just stop murdering his critics as a first step….

it is telling that you aren’t waiting for same from saakashvili…

Aug 21, 2008 - 7:12 am 115. Chuck Pelto:

TO: poul
RE: Saakashvili

“it is telling that you aren’t waiting for same from saakashvili…” — poul

How many journalist critics has he had killed?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 21, 2008 - 7:36 am 116. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Why did you ignore that aspect? That’s telling too.

Much more so than what you pointed out of me……

Aug 21, 2008 - 7:36 am 117. Clob:

>i cannot help but marvel at people who pronounce that unalienable rights of these nations
>is to brutally oppress other, smaller nations within their borders.

Explain how you can oppress a small nation within your border. The definition of nation is clear–all land within the territory belongs to said nation state. Georgian leaders oppressing georgian people? fine. That is a discussion for a different day.

Please note I made an explicit point that the baltic nations are no angels, and many of the author’s point are very good. In this conflict there are no innocent parties except for civilians. I even stated that the national propaganda of all sides should be cast aside. The Russian Vs Baltic state view of the matter is endless and tiresome. Head over to the economist — aye caramaba, what a mess.

The nature of succession itself is a complicated one and as it is off topic, I avoided it entirely. The truth of the georgian affair will be very difficult to render in a transparent fashion right now–if ever. In a truly democratic society, it should not be required. If georgia is not a true democracy, then that is again a different issue. But until Russian tanks leave Georgia, that issue cannot be addressed, as it is overshadowed by larger forces–and with threats of violence against Poland and Ukraine, a new dimension is added to the picture that cannot be ignored.

Aug 21, 2008 - 7:54 am 118. John Samford:

“1. Take Georgia back by force. Not gonna happen though; where would we get the troops?”

Don’t need them. Air power to cut of the Russian logistics tail and the Georgians will do the rest after the Russians run out of feul, ammo, food, etc.

“Russia has the ability to destroy the US and Europe in 30-40 minutes (all Medvedev or Putin has to do is press a button)”

Complete bullsh1t! a Maximum effort by the Russians would get MAYBE 40 nukes on target that worked. A more realistic number would be a dozen. On the other hand the USA could put a thousand nukes on Russia.
Puttie Ppresses the button and 1/2 the ICBM’s go psssst! and sit there. Of the half that launch, most will head toward the North pole and hit there. The ones that get past the Van Allen belts will find a surprise waiting for them, the ones that make it past that will get an up close and personal introduction to a Standard 3.
A dozen. Meanwhile the USA has a 90%+ launch rate, with a 95% + accuracy rate. And they will go off when they are supposed to.
Putin is a thug and a gangster, but he is no fool. He has a rusty .38 with a bent hammer and a corroded round in the cylinder pointed at us. We are sitting in a M1A2 SEP with a Hughs chain gun pointed at him. You really have to be the slowest train on the track to think he will pull the trigger.
I think that when the Bear snaps at you, the best response is to slap his teeth down his throat and chase him back to his cave. People ( and Nations) that us force ONLY respect force.
If you want to try a little soft power, try putting this after every post you make as a tag line;
“Have they left yet? 13 days and counting.”
You have to add another day for every day they stay there.
If we can get a fraction of the internet ( WWW to experts) doing this it will show the Russians that they are not scaring anyone and their brutal rape of Georgia will NOT be forgotten nor forgiven.
If you get 3 people to do this and they all get 3 more people to do this, and so on in a week millions will be doing it. Then the MSM will take over. When most of the news stations in the world are running a day count of how long the Russians have been in Georgia, they will get the idea that this sort of sh1t doesn’t fly anymore and leave.
SO put your money where your mouth is.

Have they left yet? 13 days and counting.

Aug 21, 2008 - 8:31 am 119. Brutal:

Seems to be a bunch of noise.

Bring it back to simple, personal terms.

If you have a disagreement with a neighbor, do you march over to his property and punch him in the nose?

Do you want your neighbor to do that?

If you have a friend who’s neighbor does that, do you watch through the windows and do nothing?

(hint) The proper answer to these questions is “no”.

What good is in your heart that you would only help a friend if it was “strategic” for you. How can you expect others to look out for you? This is a truly sad commentary of people who think that way.

Just sayin’

Aug 21, 2008 - 8:53 am 120. John Samford:

Where Mark and the rest of the appeasers miss the boat is that Georgia is of GREATER strategic value to the USA then Russia is. That the #1 strategic interest of the USA is to expand democracy to every corner of this planet. To where when you lift a rock you will find two politicians wanting your vote. It matters not where that rock is.
If Russia was a democracy, they would not have invaded Georgia nor brutalized Chechnya. Russia is mostly empty space. If they wanted the S. Ossiterians as Russians, a Democracy would have offered them land to move to.
70,000 goat herders. Russia could have given them EACH a thousand acres in Siberia and not ever missed it.
When people are dying to get into your country, there is no declining population problem. Why aren’t people in a hurry to get into Russia? Might it be nobody WANTS to live under a brutal repressive Regime? Ya think?
Russia’s problems stem from their non-democratic government. If Putin had retired when his second term was up and worked on his book, Russia would have a fighting chance to solve their problems. Another brutal thug of a despot will just kick the can down the road.
Russia’s first attempt at democracy is a failure, which is why Georgia is of greater strategic importance. Georgia might fail, and the odds are it will, since democracy isn’t easy, but right now they still have a chance. IF Russia leaves them alone.
Having every nation state on this planet with a elected government that is supported by it’s citizens will not end war, but it will make it a very scarce critter. That is the strategic goal America is working for.

Aug 21, 2008 - 8:58 am 121. Featured Articles — August 21, 2008 : The New Nixon: News and Commentary about the President, his Times, and his Legacy:

[...] Let’s Not Rush into Cold War II by Mark Safranski Some robust rhetoric has been used to condemn Russia’s brutally effective invasion of Georgia. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice compared the act to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. [...]

Aug 21, 2008 - 9:12 am 122. john:

Stating the fact that US foreign policy ought to be guided by a rational assessment of our strategic interests rather than knee-jerk sentiment and cold war nostalgia (much less GWB’s asinine belief that “all people yearn for freedom” and that it is somehow America’s mission to give it to them) suddenly makes one a “Russian shill” as one of the early commenters put it?

Really?

And I am an “appeaser” if I believe that it is not actually our national responsibility to police every single crisis in the world? That America should tend to its own interests first?

Nations have interests, not friends.

I understand the feeling many have regarding Russia’s actions in Georgia. I get how despicable their actions have been. As usual, these situations are more complicated than they are presented in the media.

But the larger point is that we as a country cannot, and frankly should not, put ourselves in a compromising position when there is no pay-off geopolitically.

While I understand that this is morally and emotionally unpleasant for neo-Wilsonian liberal universalists, it is merely common sense from a conservative point of view.

Aug 21, 2008 - 10:15 am 123. Brutal:

John wrote: Nations have interests, not friends. ( not slamming you John, just the idea of this statement )

My question would be, are you identified by your nation first, or by being a Human first.

How far do you take “nationalism”? How about, your state is more important than the country. Then, your county, then town, then neighborhood, ultimately down to the individual. — no, no, my interest before my spouse, or my children.

Ultimately, this should be about personal responsiblity. There is good and evil in the world. At what point do each of us decide to stand against evil? Sadly to some, it’s not even to protect themselves.

Aug 21, 2008 - 10:35 am 124. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Brutal
RE: To Be Brutally Honest

“John wrote: Nations have interests, not friends. ( not slamming you John, just the idea of this statement )” — Brutal

You’re very much wrong in your suggestion that nations have ‘friends’ in other nations. It’s been proven time and again that nations do not have ‘friends’, albeit national leaders like to lend credibility to that lie. Friends stick with you through thick and thin. Nations, take for instance France, don’t do that very well. France’s example has been manifest over the last 7 years, come 9/11/2008; first sympathy, then animosity—when we stood up for ourselves—and now, once France has been racked with Muslim uprisings of its own, coming around to our position.

A friend would not have objected to our defending ourselves through proactive actions to prevent future attacks of the sort we experienced 9/11/2001.

If you fail to recognize that, you have only yourself to blame.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The only way to have a friend is to be one. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]

P.S. We saved France in WWII. We helped rebuild it after WWII. We defended it against aggression in the 1950s. And what did France do? Spit in our face and throw us out.

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:03 am 125. Sully:

One can be wary of Russia without believing that we (the US) must take the lead in keeping Russia within bounds.

Mr. Safranski hit the key point in his last paragraph, namely that Europe should be the lead on this because it is a much greater present danger to Europe.

Letting Russia have Georgia will be a cheap price if by doing so we convince the Europeans that they must build sufficient conventional armed force capabilities to see to their own defense against a Russia which is weak relative to them in all aspects except nuclear weapons. We should provide the nuclear umbrella while Europe provides the manpower and muscle to defend itself.

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:15 am 126. poul:

Chuck,
>>I’m waiting for Putin to allow a fully free and function press
>>as his first step towards achieving that great goal.
>>maybe if he’d just stop murdering his critics as a first step….
>it is telling that you aren’t waiting for same from saakashvili…
>Aug 21, 2008 – 7:12 am Chuck Pelto:
>How many journalist critics has he had killed?

it is also telling how clumsily you’re trying to avoid the answer.

why kill journalists if he can close all opposition media, and fascist cheerleaders like you will help him to avoid the consequences?

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:31 am 127. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Talk About Projection…..

“it is also telling how clumsily you’re trying to avoid the answer.” — poul

’nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. As if closing down opposition newspapers is equivocal to killing the journalists. Putin does both, but p[h]oul[ish] poul doesn’t care to recognize the murders.

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:42 am 128. poul:

Clob,

“Explain how you can oppress a small nation within your border. The definition of nation is clear–all land within the territory belongs to said nation state. Georgian leaders oppressing georgian people? fine. That is a discussion for a different day.”

what a silly attempt at games with dictionary! ossetins are as much of a nation as georgians; they were given as a present by stalin to state of georgia with their land, and georgians brutally oppress them.

“Please note I made an explicit point that the baltic nations are no angels”

after they started building monuments to their SS Divisions which fought in WWII, they forfeit any right for help from the west as far as i am concerned.

> But until Russian tanks leave Georgia, that issue cannot be addressed,

but it they leave georgia, what to stop georgians from ethnically cleaning all ossetins, as they’ve tried several times before?

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:44 am 129. poul:

>’nuff said. Regards, Chuck(le)

indeed. now you’re officially on the record as fascist apologist.

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:46 am 130. Clob:

>ossetins are as much of a nation as georgians
What, all 70k of them? Really? Well, I see your true colors. Continue on your path good sir… best of luck. This argument is being hashed out ad nauseam on forums across the net, and its tiresome. Personally, I don’t believe that any of this has anything at all to do with S Ossetia–at this point. We agree to disagree.

Aug 21, 2008 - 12:49 pm 131. dan:

poul. You konw very well there’s no ethnic cleansing of Ossetians by Georgians. Snap out of it.

The point not understood by the “USA should not get involved” faction is that the USA is already *involved.* True – we are not going to send in an airborne division south of Tblisi…

Look, without going into it all again, just take the US interceptors in Poland. For anyone who’s watched as much C-SPAN as I have during the past two years, you’d know through many briefings starting as early as 2 years ago that Russia has been consulted during this entire process – these things are planned Well in advance. Everyone knows Russia would be immediately threatened by such a thing as US missile defense in Poland – which is why they are only 10 interceptors in number, and why the Russians were consulted all along.

But of course, once the proposal went public the Russians feigned surprise and outrage, eventually pressuring the Polish and Czech governments to resist accepting the missile defenses. Until now – and now Russia uses it as a pretext to threaten a “strike,” including a nuclear strike.

You see, these things are not about oil, or not just about oil. When you’re talking about the strategic picture it’s never reducable to some commodity: there are a whole host of issues, primarily the strategic orientation or character of a place.

Aug 21, 2008 - 12:55 pm 132. poul:

if you deny all 70000 ossetins status of the nation, what’s to stop from denying only couple of millions of georgians same status? it’s very dangerous path.

Aug 21, 2008 - 1:34 pm 133. poul:

dan, there were very well documented attempts of ethnic cleansing of ossetins, going back decades. you cannot deny it and expect a serious discussion whether or not russians used it as a pretext for their own aggression.

it’s very dangerous pattern i see developing here – denying authoritarian nature of georgian regime, denying georgian atrocities, denying legitimate grievances of ossetins and even their humanity, all in attempt to score discussion points.

by the way, russians did not threaten poland with nuclear strike, they just dryly pointed to the obvious fact that in case of nuclear war, the anti-missile sites are the first targets.

of course russian government is still a bunch of fascist thugs etc. etc.

Aug 21, 2008 - 1:45 pm 134. Herschel Smith:

Putin has no brilliance, for he is just a thug and criminal. Any criminal can pull off destruction of property, theivery and murder. That doesn’t make him smart – just a thug, thief and killer. Georgia has very significant strategic interests, as she is just the first in a long line of targets as Putin (and his pathetic, panting lapdog Medvedev) reconstruct the Soviet Union.

Sorry, but other than simply to say “don’t worry too much about this,” your analysis is vacuous and without any real alternative.

Aug 21, 2008 - 2:25 pm 135. cedarford:

More John Samford idiocies:

Georgia is of GREATER strategic value to the USA then Russia is. That the #1 strategic interest of the USA is to expand democracy to every corner of this planet.

Then, though you obviously never served in the military and are clueless on military capacities of nations like Russia – you favor a mass Draft? And bankrupting the USA? Since Iraq just about broke our Army and cost 2 trillion for the “noble freedom-hungry, democracy-lovers” of that nation, and 50 more nations of the same size or larger await America’s #1 strategic interest – bringing democracy at gunpoint? And if forcing our version of society down others throats is so critical, why is US killing to establish Georgian democracy more important than killing to save the Russians and establish democracy there?

When people are dying to get into your country, there is no declining population problem. Why aren’t people in a hurry to get into Russia? Might it be nobody WANTS to live under a brutal repressive Regime? Ya think?

A hint. Most immigrants and refugees don’t give two shits about “precious freedom” – they want to get to a place where they think they can get better food, lots of material stuff, and better benefits.

Complete bullsh1t! a Maximum effort by the Russians would get MAYBE 40 nukes on target that worked. A more realistic number would be a dozen. On the other hand the USA could put a thousand nukes on Russia.

Astonishing ignorance. In testing hundreds of warheads, only a handful of Russian nukes failed to work as designed. Same with their testing of operational missiles. I know. I “watched” a few Russian missile tests in my day. Not as accurate as USA stuff, but typical Russian “rugged and reliable” design.
Several Samford statements, like his claim that oil is not of biological origin and magically will be inexhaustable, show a certain cretinhood, but claiming the Russians would only be able to deliver a dozen warheads in a global thermonuclear war is the true height of cretinhood.

“Take Georgia back by force. Not gonna happen though; where would we get the troops?”

Samford – Don’t need them. Air power to cut of the Russian logistics tail and the Georgians will do the rest after the Russians run out of feul, ammo, food, etc.

1. Air power sent from what base in what cooperative nation in Europe?

2. Air power of what sort able to defeat a robust sophisticated Russian anti-air missile and look-down phased array radar network? Or 300 top line fighter planes they have in theater?

3. Air power used that would not have to attack the Black Sea Fleet or targets within Russia striking at them in turn, to be effective?

4. And magically, air power that would just kill Russians with no retaliation against Americans in Bases from Norway down to Afghanistan to Alaska in easy reach of Russian non-nuclear air and tactical rocket/missile wings?
No naval sinkings?

Breathtaking ignorance!

Aug 21, 2008 - 2:50 pm 136. Chuck Pelto:

TO: P[h]oul[ish]
RE: Kinda Hard…

“indeed. now you’re officially on the record as fascist apologist.” — P[h]oul[ish]

To support fascism and be accepted in the US Armed Forces, let alone hold a TS billet. Don’t you think? But I it seems that you obviously don’t.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Oh what tangled webs they weave when they first practice to deceive.]

Aug 21, 2008 - 3:43 pm 137. John Samford:

1. Air power sent from what base in what cooperative nation in Europe?

Iraq;
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/kirkuk-airbase.htm

ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Asad_Airfield

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/balad-ab.htm

The B2’s will fly out of Diego, of course. since they can fly anywhere in the world, nonstop, it doesn’t matter that much where they are based.

2. Air power of what sort able to defeat a robust sophisticated Russian anti-air missile and look-down phased array radar network? Or 300 top line fighter planes they have in theater?

Stealth. Russia has no top line fighters. PERIOD. They don’t even build any. Their best fighter is the SU30, which was designed and built over 20 years ago. Do you even know what this term means? “look-down phased array radar network”.
If you did, you would understand that it is useless against B-2’s OR F-22’s. BTW, the F-15, which is an obsolete American fighter that the F-22 is replacing has a 102 to ZERO kill ratio against those ‘top line Russian fighters”. Against pilots with equal or better training then the Russian pilots.

From 3 and 4 it is obvious that you didn’t read what I wrote. You are trying to put words in my mouth to give you something to argue against. Sort of a modified ’strawman’ technique.

We collapse the Roki tunnel;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roki_Tunnel
Put a sub in the black sea to block the ports and start shooting down Ant-12’s;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-12

The Russians cannot stop any of this. They can expand the fighting, which is completely AGAINST SOVIET DOCTRINE (which is to reinforce success and withdraw from failure). I don’t think they have the initiative to go against 40 + years of training and if they do, we will just whoop them there too. NOTHING will encourage them to invade another country more then your abject cowardice and refusal to fight.
Russia in a military conflict with the US is like an 80 years old Librarian Threating to punch a NFL linebacker. SO WHAT! Punch away.
What you don’t seem to understand is that Putin has chosen war. The sooner that choice is proven to be the wrong one, the less blood will be spilt and money spent and the sooner Putin will be replaced.

CF, you need to stick with your moonbat friends. With them being the dullest tool in the shed isn’t such a handicap.
When you next feel the urge to contribute, find some support for your nonsense.

Aug 21, 2008 - 3:48 pm 138. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Samford and Cedarford
RE: Power Projection

Just to clarify some matters about this. In order for another country to project military power into the region, it would be necessary to mount a major logistical operation.

Said operation would require the establishment of land-based tactical and air-superiority forces on a large scale. A scale large enough with technically advanced weapons platforms to deal with the quantity of airpower that the Russians would be expected to commit to a battle, as well as deal with the ground forces they would throw into an assault to carry away the country in total.

I doubt if the Russians would go nuclear against US, if we were involved, considering our capabilities to reply in kind and much more effectively. But they are doing a nice job of trying to cow other recently independent states to toe THEIR line with such weapons. And this, I think, is an interesting indicator of the low mentality of Putin and company. Not to forget their disgusting political philosophy amongst the nations of the world. But it’s to be expected of them.

TO: All
RE: p[h]oul[ishness] Abounds

“by the way, russians did not threaten poland with nuclear strike, they just dryly pointed to the obvious fact that in case of nuclear war, the anti-missile sites are the first targets.” — p[h]oul[ish]

“First targets”? With what? He doesn’t say, does he.

’nuff said.

But, just to make sure people understand this stupidity on the part of the ham-handed Russian government, the radiation from those nukes would drift into the Ukraine and then into Russia; the prevailing winds blowing from West to East.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 21, 2008 - 3:58 pm 139. cedarford:

Pelto – But, just to make sure people understand this stupidity on the part of the ham-handed Russian government, the radiation from those nukes would drift into the Ukraine and then into Russia; the prevailing winds blowing from West to East.

The US conducted open air tests of some 30 nuke weapons in Nevada. Estimates are that that may have caused some 3,000 delayed cancers. Compared to the complete destruction that would have occured to the enemy, if a deadly dangerous (to you) enemy base had been under each of those 30 nuke bursts, loosing 100 of your own later on per blast would be “acceptable losses” in any real war.

The lethality of radiation fallout that strays outside the bomb damage area is greatly overestimated in the general public. The casualties a nuke bomb will cause will be near-exclusively in it’s immediate intended target zone, and primarily by blast and fire effects.

Exceptions would be neutron-enhanced weapons, and huge 3-stage “dirty” H-Bombs on the 3-25 megaton range that generated so much fission product activity that the “fallout plume” can indeed expose people to lethal rad levels for days up to two weeks outside the blast and fire zones.

Aug 21, 2008 - 4:27 pm 140. Sully:

John Samford – you wrote “a Maximum effort by the Russians would get MAYBE 40 nukes on target that worked. A more realistic number would be a dozen. On the other hand the USA could put a thousand nukes on Russia.”

I think the phrase you’re looking for is somthing like, “I’m not saying we won’t get our hair mussed a bit, but you’re talking 30, 40 million dead max.”

Aug 21, 2008 - 6:35 pm 141. John Samford:

“it would be necessary to mount a major logistical operation.”
Chuck, not in the information age.
In the era of Mechanized war, that was true. I can even see it as desirable in the 21st century. Necessary? Nope.
I will provide a short list here on power projection that required minimal logistics.
Mao in China, Castro in Cuba, Afghanistan in ‘01. Although the Rout of the Taliban was incomplete because the local troops didn’t have the mobility to prevent most of the Taliban from escaping, not that their escape was that big a deal. The Russians lifted out the leadership and the cannon fodder is easy to replace.
The thing about logistics is that they can become an end into itself, instead of a means to an end. In some wars logistics actually hinder the fighting. Sort of a cart in front of the horse effect.
PGM’s are so accurate (or at least American ones are, the Russians cannot get here yet, since weapons accuracy is a function of quality control, which is itself the result of a competitive market place in consumer goods.) that hitting a target on the other side of the globe is a matter of time.
This blurs the issue of logistics, since the logistics pipeline can start stockpiling on the factory floor. Traditional logistics in based on the 3 levels of warfare, tactical, operational and Strategic.
When a tactical level commander can destroy a target with a weapon that was 1,000 Km’s away 8 hours ago, the distinction between tactical logistics and operational logistics has blurred.
The REMF’s want to pile up stuff where they can count it without being shot at. The shooter want to shoot it off. One is an operational task, the other tactical.
So if one looks at it from the POV of putting weapons on a target, EVERY cotton picking thing that goes boom in the US inventory is available for use in Georgia. It’s just a question of time.
The stocks in Iraq or Turkey would be expended first, but only because they will take less time to deliver. Replacing those items from stocks in the USA would take hours. So we need to get started.

This topic has ben discussed in Military circles since Vietnam. Then the argument was over weapons in the PI, Japan or Okinawa. The traditonalists won there and weapons had to be shipped into the theater to count as inventory for Vietnam.
Since Modern aircraft carry their weapons internally, that distinction has gotten very vague. I’m not sure how the Air Force deals with that nowdays. From a warfighting POV it doesn’t matter. The only ones that care are the REMF’s that need inventory to build turf.
The Taliban that was atomised by a 2000Lb JDAM didn’t care if it came from Kansas, Diego or Turkey. Neither did the air crew that dropped it or the SO trooper on the ground that requested it. Only the Supply Sgt and his boss care. and that was because they had to account for it.
So the whole logistics argument is bogus and is concealing another issue. A weak issue, otherwise it wouldn’t need concealment.

An supply Officer that tells his boss that he doesn’t have something on hand needs to be replaced and often is. That is why they like stockpiles. BIG stockpiles. Once relieved, they tend to get re-assigned places where people get shot at. It sounds like somebody at the Pentagon is blowing smoke.

Aug 21, 2008 - 6:42 pm 142. Russian Bear:

About so called “Russian threats” to Poland and Ukraine.
There is a rule in military planing: any military force in your neighborhood which is not under your control, and is not proven to be friendly, must be considered as a potentially hostile one, and must be addressed. If Poland allows missile-interceptors on her territory, it is obvious that Russians must put that place on the list of their targets. This is not something shocking, this is not “an outrageous threat by mean Russians”. This is what any military planning is supposed to do. Of course, generals try not to speak about what they are planning for. To say: “You are a target!” is not polite. But Poles are not polite with Russians too. Why Russians can not afford to be rude sometimes?
About KGB. What do you guys bear against our KGB? This was a normal security service, as every important state has. Certainly after Stalin’s death. It was like the FBI and CIA under one administration. It was not making policies, it followed the Constitution and the laws, effective at that moment. It was just a service, like the Fire Department or the Police. So, your cry about “KGB Putin” is absurd. “KGB Putin” means no more than “firefighter Putin” or “construction worker Putin”. Putin was in KGB doing his job. George Bush the First was a CIA director before, so what? He was not a bad President. Putin is a real statesman and a patriot. That is why Russians respect him.
Some of you wanted to see Russia in sh*t, and are not happy that it is out of sh*t now.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20080819/cm_uc_crpbux/op_337089
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/21/europe/policy.php?page=2
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/19/opinion/edgreenway.php

About freedom of press, and other freedoms. Russians have them. If they want more they will demand more.

Two helpful link for belligerent John Samford:
http://www.missilethreat.com/missilesoftheworld/id.145/missile_detail.asp

A quote from Russian Military doctrine text:

The Russian Federation regards nuclear weapons as a means of deterrence of an aggression, of ensuring the military security of the Russian Federation and its allies, and of maintaining international stability and peace.

The Russian Federation reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in response to the use of nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction against itself or its allies and also in response to large-scale aggression involving conventional weapons in situations that are critical for the national security of the Russian Federation and its allies.

Aug 21, 2008 - 11:54 pm 143. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Samford
RE: Logistics

Sure. You can start a fight with one guy with one rifle and one bullet at the right target.

But in order to win that fight, you need to have enough firepower deliverable to defeat whatever is thrown at you while the diplomats TRY to win it at the table.

You doubt this? Then you’re not a very good student of history.

As the latest examples, we could not have won GWI or II without Host Nation Support (HNS) provided by Saudi Arabia in I and Kuwait in II.

“An supply Officer that tells his boss that he doesn’t have something on hand needs to be replaced and often is.” — Samford

You can’t tell your boss you’ve got mobility fuel for his division if the fuel isn’t there; whether its your fault or not. Let alone advanced anti-armor munitions. Or even bullets. What do you do when you’re out of bullets and the logistical lines of communication have been cut.

In a more historic and dramatic example, consider the Nazi 6th Army at Stalingrad.

As for the information age, I haven’t seen it actually win a war by itself, yet. It played a big part in the Gulf Wars, but in order to seize and hold ground you still need to put your young men in the mud and give them the material support they require to win the fight.

So tell me, Samford. When and where did YOU serve US? I’m curious because you remind me of someone I knew some time ago.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study logistics.]

Aug 22, 2008 - 12:07 am 144. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. About those…

“The Taliban that was atomised by a 2000Lb JDAM didn’t care if it came from Kansas, Diego or Turkey.” — Samford

Americans in 1950 rediscovered something that since Hiroshima they had forgotten: you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life—but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud. — T.R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War

P.P.P.S. Bombs alone will not eliminate a recalcitrant enemy on the battle field. Witness the Imperial Japanese soldier in the Pacific War. You had to dig them out of their caves, literally, after sweeping across the land, one grunt’s footstep at a time.

P.P.P.P.S. Never did any time at the Puzzle Palace. Did ALL of troop time at the division, brigade, battalion and company levels. Did my other time, teaching STARC commanders and staffs how to prepare for natural disasters and national emergencies.

What did YOU do?

Aug 22, 2008 - 12:12 am 145. poul:

Russian Bear, what’s interesting about your post is not that it’s a lie, but that’s it’s a lie from the first to the last word. but i must admit that “KGB followed the Constitution and the laws” takes the cake for the most outrageous lie ever published on internets.

congratulations!

Aug 22, 2008 - 2:02 am 146. Janus:

Peace in our Time?

Aug 22, 2008 - 5:10 am 147. dan:

no, there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing. nor is “2000 dead” (a russian figure) evidence of genocide. are ossetes even a people? there are what, 100,000 of them at most? interestingly, i notice that the ossetians supposedly want independence – and then immediate incorporation into russia. don’t you think that’s an interesting form of “independence?”

and let me get this straight, you think a georgian government run by sakshivili is more authoritarian than a government run by scheverdnadze, USSR politburo member since the 1970s, foreign affairs minister under gorbachev, and – astonishing! – “president” of georgia after gorbachev’s invasion? scheverdnadze was “appointed” after a coup in 1993, and ruled Georgia until kicked out in 2004. come on – Saakishvili might be a Georgian, but he was moving the country westward. he may not have been teddy roosevelt, but he wasn’t eduard sheverdnadze either.

poul. since i have a good coffee buzz going and i enjoy a little dissembling from time to time, i’ll take you for a good faith interlocutor for a second. yes, let us grant that georgia, former SSR and prior to that borderland between Tsar and Sultan, is a corrupt place riddled with asiatic personalities and their typical penchant for deception and venality. i grant you that. i’ll also even grant a hatred for ossetians. i don’t know that to be true, but if it weren’t true it would make georgians a uniquely peaceful and hateless people for that region. those people *hate* everyone who isn’t them, it seems. people-hating is a big cultural thing there. fine.

however, georgians are not russians – this i know from personal experience. and whereas it’s easy to get a russian to admit he thinks ukraine is not a country but simply a part of russia suffering from delusions of grandeur, i never heard a russian say he thought georgia was russia or georgians russians. and i’ve never even heard of ossetes – and why should i? i live 7,000 miles away and there are only 100,000 ossetes living in a tiny band of land between two inland Asiatic seas. there are doubtless dozens of other such populations all over the world, and i don’t feel a shred of guilt for not knowing about them too. perhaps i will; if i don’t, who cares.

moreover, it should be remembered that, for all its loveliness, the concept of nationality independence is simply a weapon against empire – and it’s often been used, as after WWI most notably in the sudetenland and throughout the USSR era, as a pretext for the very kind of independence-through-incorporation we see now in the caucasus. to reverse your comment above, if every little population of 100,000 people should be allowed to declare its sovereignty whenever it feels like it, thereby dissolving other duly constituted states, then how much of the map would remain? and what of the national resources invested in collective security – even of the russian kind – in such a situation? your argument is sentimentally appealling but politically and strategically unsound.

the bottom line in this situation is that russia – as the scheverdnadze regime makes crystal clear – always intended to reincorporate georgia. the present situation is simply the result of the maneuvoring required to put a happy face on the invasion. and of course russia’s apologists are out offering their line, which is only to be expected. russia has destroyed all military infrastructure and much civilian infrastructure, throughout georgia, and is clearly not leaving anytime soon. i guess we’ll see who’s right, eventually, but i doubt us russophobes are wrong.

Aug 22, 2008 - 5:19 am 148. poul:

dan, are georgians even a people? there are what, 4.6 mil of them at most? much less if you subtract ossetins, abkhazians and adjars.

there are 800 000 ossetians (70000 in south ossetia), nobody in the know will confuse them with georgians, etc. etc.

everything you said about georgia applies to ossetia and vice versa. kosovo is around 2 millions, and we established the precedent there.

there’s plenty of glaring evidence of ethnic cleansing, and i find attempts of denying it quite disgusting.

the bottom line is that georgians tried to keep by brutal force in their country people whom they also brutally oppress, and it backfired.

Aug 22, 2008 - 10:21 am 149. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: poul’s Approach….

“dan, are georgians even a people? there are what, 4.6 mil of them at most? much less if you subtract ossetins, abkhazians and adjars.” — poul

…to head-count.

It’s interesting that he doesn’t seem to think much of numbers.

I wonder what he thinks of the ‘Endangered Species’ list? Maybe the 82d Airborne Division should resume full scale training despite some endangered woodpecker on the Fort Bragg military reservation.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 22, 2008 - 10:58 am 150. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. I wonder if Stalin, an infamous leader of the Russians—ironically from Georgia—started out with poul’s mentality towards the obstreperous Ukrainians?

At least Putin will only have to murder half the number Stalin did in the Ukraine.

Aug 22, 2008 - 11:00 am 151. Clob:

Russian Bear, very comical. Show me voices of dissent about russian handling of the Georgia action from russian authors. Explain why exile.ru didn’t get the boot. If people want freedom they will take it? Not going to respond to that one–just going to say, look how well its working out for russian neighbors.

“There is a rule in military planing: any military force in your neighborhood which is not under your control, and is not proven to be friendly, must be considered as a potentially hostile one, and must be addressed.”

Fatalistic thinking. Why is Poland not a friend? HA. oh wait, nations don’t have friends they have interests. Oh I get it, its competition on an economic frontier. So are you saying the best way to enter a free market is to intimidate those in the market? Lets not forget the threats to poland after russia marched into georgia but before the interceptor deal. Or maybe the russian general let slip what his real plan was. a pretext for another invasion. no…i don’t think so personally. I honestly think if there was more freedom of the press there would be more voices of truth for all sides. if you are proud that russia is causing fear, that is fine. fear is what drives nationalism btw. I am proud that I can buy ipods and playstations. not only that, i am proud that others can buy them too–including you! the water is warm, really it is…but…que sera sera.

Aug 22, 2008 - 11:28 am 152. poul:

chuck, stalin – ironically, ossetin, not georgian – started with your mentality toward small peoples.

Aug 22, 2008 - 6:18 pm 153. poul:

Clob:

> Show me voices of dissent about russian handling of the Georgia action from russian authors.

http://grani.ru/Politics/Russia/m.140299.html
http://grani.ru/Politics/Russia/m.140333.html

assuming you can read russian and your question was serious…

Aug 22, 2008 - 6:21 pm 154. Clob:

question is indeed serious. It is good to see that dissent is still present, even if the press isn’t necessarily free.

http://halldor2.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/valeria-novodvorskaya-succumbing-to-madness/

Aug 22, 2008 - 8:59 pm 155. poul:

cool. now try to find any free press or open dissent in georgia.

Aug 22, 2008 - 10:03 pm 156. Russian Bear:

RE: poul: …I must admit that “KGB followed the Constitution and the laws” takes the cake for the most outrageous lie ever published on internets….

Poul, you missed the point. I speak about the USSR laws and Constitution, not the USA’s.

Aug 22, 2008 - 11:31 pm 157. poul:

russian bear, i got that. please do find where ussr laws and constitution allowed torture of the suspects, beating of political dissidents, etc. etc.

go ahead, try to find it, or try to deny it was happening regularly. that will be good for a laugh.

Aug 22, 2008 - 11:53 pm 158. von Rum:

It is good to see an article with some reason in it. The current near hysteria over Russia is disconcerting. This, along with Thomas Friedmans 19 August article in NYT are among the few which reflect the balance of power as it now stands. We need to begin to think less in terms of the Cold War and more in terms of the 19th century scramble for resources and markets. Where is Bismarck when you need him.
von Rum

Aug 23, 2008 - 6:12 am 159. Russian Bear:

poul, please do find where and and when the KGB after Stalin’s death was torturing the suspects, beating political dissidents, etc. etc.
I emphasize: THE KGB, not the regular cops or prison guards.

Aug 23, 2008 - 9:18 am 160. Let:

[...] counseled that we immediately send the Georgians Stinger and Javelin missiles. Strong stuff." Pajamas Media » Let

Aug 24, 2008 - 1:36 am 161. Peter of Austin:

Dan,

The Bush administration is totally at fault with Russia’s advance into Georgia. The best way to project power is through the philosophy “walk softley, but carry a big stick”. Intimidation of American Military might was destroyed by the Iraq war displaying its vulnerabilities. Putin see’s a weakened America and saw very little risk in retaliating against Georgia’s aggression. In addition, I bet the Russian leadership finds it comical an American President with 20% approval rating and Congressman with single digits approval rating are telling them how to run their country when they have a 60 – 70% approval rating.

Aug 25, 2008 - 11:06 am 162. Let’s Not Rush into Cold War II « Terryorisms:

[...] into Cold War II August 28, 2008 Posted by tkcollier in Geopolitics. Tags: Russia trackback Pajamas Media » Let’s Not Rush into Cold War II From administration to administration, we zigzag with the needs of the moment in our dealings with [...]

Aug 28, 2008 - 4:05 am 163. ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » To Punish or Rehabilitate Russia?:

[...] of the United States, which this blogger says despite being an avid Georgia supporter. Both Zenpundit and Galrahn at Information Dissemination correctly point this out. With that in mind, and in the [...]

Aug 28, 2008 - 5:53 pm 164. Helios:

Russia had little to no right to invade Georgia proper (i.e. beyond South Ossetia), and it’s questionable that there was significant cause for them to legitimately invade any part of Sovereign Georgia (including South Ossetia). Any pretext has been set up by Russia over the last year – including granting citizenship to the population of a renegade province in another sovereign country.

Granted I am upset that Mikheil Saakashvili took Russia’s bait, but I have little doubt that if he hadn’t, Russia would have eventually designed another pretext to invade. My greatest fury is at the utter lack of useful response by the Federal Government (i.e. Bush the Coward) and the European Union (i.e. The Useless Gits). We abandoned an ally which is unforgivable. We should have at least made a show of force, such as redirecting a Battle Group toward the Black Sea. What we need to do is push the Russians out of the country and throw down the gauntlet. Diplomacy is useless in dealing with Putin, as can be seen by constant Russian violations of the so called cease fire and its use of Georgian civilians as force laborers (I’d use the term slave labor). Putin means to weaken the Republic of Georgia to the point of utter collapse, and George Bush bears some responsibility by his lack of response to the situation.

Since the US Government and European Union have failed to act, it is incumbent upon the citizenry to do what the government has not. What to do?

1. First, always complain to your Representatives and Senators. Call for any and all means to restore Georgian Sovereignty. This of course will accomplish little to nothing as many politicians are base cowards and sycophants, but you have to try.

2. Domestic Energy – I know we don’t like the topic, but it has to be aired and new sources of fuel, both conventional and alternative must be found and developed.

3. Withdraw any and all investments in Russia and Russian Firms. Call on American companies to not do business in Russia.

4. Protest at Russian consultants and Embassies. Interfere with traffic in and out. Submit bogus requests to waste their time and energy.
5. Take down Russia websites and servers – hackers attack. Cost them as much money as possible.
6. Support Georgian resistance groups when and if the time comes.

7. Support separatist groups in Russia proper – give Putin a taste of his own medicine.

Aug 31, 2008 - 1:02 pm 165. Mary Barncastle:

Boy, Americans are really brainwashed. So you support Saakashvili’s invasion of South Ossetia and killing civilians? Bombarding civilian areass where there were women and children hiding in churches and basements?

And you don’t know that the people there realize that had Russians not come in, they ALL would have been murdered in cold blood?

Engage your brains!!!!

And so the bloody murderous Georgians were chased back to Georgia. You have a problem with that?

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:46 am 166. Mordecai:

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May 20, 2009 - 6:34 pm

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